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Wednesday, September 1st, 2010 at 10:40 am  |  105 responses

For Old Time’s Sake: Jason Kidd

TRIPLE DOUBLE. When all is said and done, JKidd will go down as one of the greatest point guards ever. He was NASTY in high school, unreal at Cal, a lottery pick in ’94, co-ROY, and a 10x NBA All Star…. and counting. While an NBA Championship has evaded him to this point, he is still competing at a high level in Dallas and putting up great numbers. He has career averages of 13.6 pts, 9.2 asts, 6.6 rbs, and 2 stls. Kidd is second on the All-Time Assists list behind John Stockton and the only player in NBA history with 15,000 points, 10,000 assists and 7,000 rebounds. He is currently 3rd all time in triple-doubles with 105 (Behind the Big O and Magic). Shout out to Matt for sending in another fresh Yinka Dare mix.

-Schneezy

For more old school videos, check out SLAMtv in the Media section.

Have a video you want to see in FOTS? Send the video link to slamteam@harris-pub.com

issue-42-jkidd


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  • JTaylor21

    Top 5 point guard of all time no question. Due to those numbers that no one even a taller Magic could produce and taking the nets to 2 straight finals there’s should be no one questioning his rank in history. The second best all-around point guard of all time behind Oscar and Magic comes in third. Steve No Defense Nash has nothing on JKidd.

  • Overtime

    @ Schneezy, was act goin to send this mix to you. Great mix, great song, even better player.
    No doubt Jkidd is top 5, hes just unbelievable, and dseserves more respect than hes got for turning himself in2 a 3 point threat late in his career

  • http://www.slamonline.com/ niQ

    I remember in his prime, I watched Jason Kidd’s plays religiously and wanted to do everything he did.

  • http://screwjams.tumblr.com cramzy

    remember backcourt 2000 w/ Penny & jkidd?! Wished that could have worked out. Jkidd top 5 pg alltime no question!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I loved him with Jimmy Jackson & Jamal Mashburn in Dallas.

  • SMK

    So did Toni Braxton.

  • larrylegend

    franchise changer!!! don’t have to see the vid, kidd’s plays are burned in my mind. 3rd eye unblind…

  • http://www.slamonline.com wayno

    Love Jason Kidd…I can’t believe he hasn’t won a chip or an MVP yet.

  • droc

    Kidd does not get enough credit for how high his basketball IQ is. He’s always around the ball and knows the strengths of everyone on his ballclub. One of the few basketball players that can dominate a game without scoring

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Kidd ain’t top five.
    Magic, Oscar, Isiah, Stockton and Frazier. And Frazier might be better than Stockton. That’s the top five right there.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    You know where Kidd would be perfect right now and would win a title? Miami. Him, with Wade and Lebron running the wings….damn.

  • The Philosopher

    Co-sign Eboy.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/ niQ

    I remember Kidd had the choice of Dallas or Cleveland. Kidd with Lebron would’ve been nice and would’ve fit his style of play a lot more.

  • The Philosopher

    1. Magic
    2. Oscar
    3. Isiah
    4. Cousy
    5. Stockton

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Philospher
    You don’t think Cousy deserves to be docked for his horrid shooting percentage, and his lack of defense?

  • Papa Smurf

    Wow. Prime J-Kidd highlights + that song = great start to my work day. That really took me back.

  • http://slamonline.com GotHandles?

    that song was the ish back in the day, still is.

  • JTaylor21

    AllenP you must be LOCO if you think that Frazier is better than JKidd. You must have being thinking bout fashion when you said that stupid statement.

  • The Philosopher

    Allenp:
    The biggest thing that intrigues me about Cousy was how he ushered in a new style of play.
    Revolutionary.
    Revolutionary to the point where most every great point guard since Cousy… has a little Cousy in him.
    Even if in the slightest.

  • http://thacorner.net/forums Kevin

    One of the greatest PG’s ever. Although that whole blond hair thing he had going on he could’ve not done that

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    I used to put Cousy a lot higher, but I learned a lot about him. I no longer think he’d survive in this era. Dude had no jump shot. NO jump shot. That’s why his percentages were the way they were. Ouch.
    As for the Frazier v JKidd argument… that’s a real toughie. Frazier obviously achieved more, but he sort of faded very quickly as the league got stronger, while JKidd has ludicrous longevity. Damn, that’s tough.

  • The Philosopher

    Rondo would have been the greatest point guard ever if he played in Cousy’s day.
    And, so would every other decent point guard with no jump shot.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    JTtaylor
    Let’s be honest, neither of us has seen Walt Frazier play many games. I know I haven’t.
    But, I also know that dude put up 36 and 19 in a Game Seven against a stacked Lakers team, a feat I don’t think Jason Kidd has ever, EVER been capable of achieving.
    Hell, to be honest, I think Gary Payton was better than Jason Kidd, triple doubles be damned.
    Frazier and Payton were both Kidd’s superiors as defenders, and they were much more consistent threats on offense, and could excel outside of fast breaking offenses.
    If your team runs a lot, Jason Kidd is the man. If you play half court offense, his value decreases quite a bit.
    Now, you make your argument.

  • JTaylor21

    Jukai it’s not really hard, JKidd is the better point guard than Frazier without question. He’s a better passer, rebounder, thief, did at a HIGH level for a longer period of time, and is third behind Oscar and Magic in triple dubs. It’s a NO brainer in my opinion.

  • unrel

    j.kidd is in the top 5 for sure.. i’m not normally big on numbers/stats.. but his line does not lie.. and teh frazier/kidd debate.. different eras.. super difficult to determine.. but if they went heads up.. i’d put my money on j.kidd..

  • itaigruss

    you guys have been killin it with the old school videos the last few days

  • http://aol.com Run’N'Gun219

    JKidd is the 2nd best point guard of my generation and i am 27(stockton is #1) Isiah was more of a scoring point gaurd. oscar scored a lot of point but really had no game( he would just back people down from half court to the basket)
    cousy and frazier? yeah right… JKidd is the definition of a point gaurd he leads his team and they follow him. And he should have at least 1 MVP but they gave it to Tim Duncan for PR of the league.

  • NJ4Life

    Would frazier have taken those 02/03 Nets teams to the Finals? doubtful. JKidd vision is matched only by magic’s and though not as good as payton, his D was HELLACIOUS in his prime. Kidd’s def top 5 at the position along with Magic, Oscar, Stockton, and Zeke.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    It’s a no brainer if you don’t look at stats or actually think about impact on the game.
    Frazier’s first five seasons in the league, they didn’t keep stats on assists. When they finally started keeping them, he averaged 2 steals a game for two years, then dropped to about 1.5.
    His assist totals early in his career were in the 7-8 assist range, and he was scoring more than 20 points a game (Something Kidd has never done.) Not only was he scoring, but his field goal percentage was always in the 48-49 percent range, and topped 50 percent several times. We all know Kidd has never even gotten close to those numbers, even in his prime.
    As for rebounds, Frazier averaged 5.9 for his career, while Kidd has averaged 6.6. When you consider that Frazier played with dominant rebounders for most of his career, while Kidd’s best numbers came on teams that were light in rebounding, well that makes even more sense.
    Like I said, Frazier put up impressive stats in a Knicks offense predicated on team ball movement, not point guard dominance. His scoring numbers and efficiency completely dwarf Kidd’s, his assist numbers are more than respectable consider the assist rules of the time, and the rebounding is about the same. I think Frazier was likely a better defender than Kidd given his reputation. And don’t forget he shared the backcourt for a while with Earl Monroe, which took the ball out of his hands even more.
    Frazier was more versatile, and I think a better all-around player, while Kidd was amazing on the fast break, but struggled outside of that style. Still a great, top ten point guard, but not top five.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I’m sorry, my post should say that Frazier’s first five seasons they didn’t keep stats on steals.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Kidd’s shooting percentages are pretty Cousy-like.
    I say it again, Frazier and Payton were better all around point guards than Kidd.

  • The Philosopher

    Payton and Kidd are better than Frazier.

  • hammer

    Can’t place kidd as top 5. Place him @ 6 followed by frazier,tiny archibald,payton and nash

  • http://theurbangriot.com The Nupe

    Kidd is a definite top 10 pg, you can make an argument as the 4th best ever (Magic, Big O, Isiah are my clear top 3). But Stockton, Frazier, Archibald, Payton and Nash (I’m sure I’m forgetting somebody) could all be argued as better than Kidd. I don’t think there is a clear answer, era and style of play all impact their numbers.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I don’t understand why people are content to overlook Kidd’s horrendous shooting percentages.
    I’ve argued with Jukai numerous times about whether Kidd is better than Nash, which I contend he is. Jukai always points to Kidd’s shooting percentages, and I always point to Nash’s horrible defense.
    But, in the case of Payton and Frazier, you have to players who are arguably Kidd’s superior as defenders, his inferiors as passers, but completely dominate him when the discussion turns to putting the ball in the bucket. To me, the rebounding numbers, which Kidd wins, are impressive, but not that impressive.

  • http://theurbangriot.com The Nupe

    With the exception of Magic all the guards listed have their faults. The Big-O played in the post as much as he ran the offense and Isiah was… well Isiah. Kidd doesn’t have stellar shooting %, but everything else about his game, inlcuding rebounding is pretty impressive. Outside of Magic, you could argue he’s the best floor general on the list. He really runs the offense and his basketball IQ is off the chains. Although he was far from the best player, some argue he was the guy that really lead the Olympic team. Kode, LBJ, Wade etc looked to him, thats a lot of ego to overcome. Some players just have intangibles that are hard to explain, Kidd is one of those guys.

  • The Philosopher

    Nash’s defense is underrated.
    Nash is a master at drawing the offensive foul.
    Among the best in NBA History.
    An offensive foul is almost as good as a steal in many cases.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/ niQ

    Co-sign Philosopher @ 1:36.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/ niQ

    Co-sign Philosopher @ 1:36.

  • http://thosefishtacosarethetits.blogspot.com Boston_Blogg3r

    Imagine if he ever played with a capable big man…

  • http://aol.com Run’N'Gun219

    nupe well put my dude. could not have said it better

  • NJ4Life

    You can knock Kidd’s shot % all you want, but the man is top 5 (or 6) in 3 pointers all-time. That’s gotta count for something. And there’s no way I put Nash ahead of Kidd. Aside from the shooting Kidd is his superior in every way, both talent-wise and from a physical standpoint.

  • http://idunkonthem.blogspot.com/ albie1kenobi

    my favorite player of all time not named Michael Jordan. the first two NBA games I watched live I was fortunate enough to see him play (first as a Sun and second as a Net).
    it’s true that he’s the definition of dominating without scoring, but that’s because he really can’t score. i think we are all surprised by his career 3 points made (ranked 5th all time at 1,662), but when you are at the end of the game, he can’t really go get buckets himself, which is without a doubt his achilles’ heel.
    Payton was the number 1 defensive point in his days, but Kidd was no slouch himself either. I remember reading an article about the opposite team’s point guards always have terrible offensive outputs when played against Kidd. GP is definitely better scorer (kidd’s highest ave for the season was 20.1 PPG), but i think it’s safe to argue that kidd gives bigger impact for the team as evidence of the two trips to Finals with the effing Nets. (Kemp was at least three times the player Kenyon Martin is/was). i can’t comment on Frazier because I don’t know anything about him.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Now THAT’S what I’m talkin’ about!

  • Sparker

    i preferred the j will video. i even preferred what we saw of kidd in the k mart video. as for the debate, i think it’s interesting that allenp is trying to bring walt into the discussion. in most cases, he’s overlooked. to me, though, there are shoot-first point guards, and pass-first point guards, and they should be considered in separate categories. only walt and oscar are shoot-first here, and what’s interesting about that is that it made them seem ahead of their time. with point guards, you also have some key but only vaguely definable qualities that are tough to factor in, like court vision (somewhat reflected in assist numbers, but not totally). put that in and it’s hard to put payton in the same class as magic, nash, kidd, stockton and (sure) cousy.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Co-sign Allenp on Walt Frazier.
    And @ JTaylor: Walt Frazier was THE first true thief of the league. He turned steals into an art.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Philospher
    Steals and charges are overrated ways to determine defensive prowess.

  • http://slamonline BossTerry

    Lotsa pgs lately in this f.o.t.s.. I’d still like to see- Richmond. Kemp.Drexler.Horace Grant. Vin Baker. Strickland. JR Rider. Wilkins. Malone. Mourning. Starks. D.Robinson. Manning. Coleman.. to name a few.

  • ch

    kind of crazy to think the suns once had Kevin Johnson, Steve Nash, and Jason Kidd on the roster at the same time. Thats probably the deepest I have ever seen a position on any team.

  • The Philosopher

    @Allenp:
    Arguable, but I beg to differ.
    For, a many an outcome to a game, even Championship games were determined on a steal or an offensive foul.
    Now, when one has a player like a Danny Fortson, who would abuse the technique, then yes, I can agree with it overrating a player’s defensive prowess.
    As far as steals… arguable as well.
    But, creating offensive opportunities via steals requires a great level of anticipation, and guile.
    That does nothing but help the player, and the team.

  • http://www.justinmaller.com Justin

    I love Kidd, but thats the worst compilation of all time. Wow, a pass for a jump shot. Amazing. I feel like you could put a more exciting comp together just from last season…

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Philospher
    A steal helps, but what if the player’s actions to get the steal involve gambling on almost every play to the point where he throws of the team’s defensive rotations and help? Iverson.
    Or, what about players who routinely flop with the hope of drawing a charge instead of playing physical defense, and only get one charge for every four flops?
    Nash.
    I think both stats can be positives for a team, but just like scoring, it all depends on what you do to get your numbers.

  • The Philosopher

    Allen:
    But, at the same time, many players gamble on offense, as well. Nash on the other hand, doesn’t gamble as much on offense as some other point guards.
    If he does gamble on offense, many times it doesn’t seem like it, for, he is that good.
    It almost evens itself out.
    Iverson is a whole different story.
    Nash will get more calls in his favor than guys who don’t have the stature of Nash.
    That is big.

  • The Philosopher

    And also, Nash is a decent enough help defender to where a team is going to get more positives out of Nash’s defense than negatives, when looking at the overall product.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Philosopher
    I strongly disagree that Nash’s defensive positives outweigh his negatives and I think that is a product of media spin.
    Any time your small forward has to regularly guard opposing point guards because your point guard is completely overmatched, there is a problem. Moreover, Nash regularly is a specatator on defense, watch him closely over the course of the game. Nash and Amare are on the same level defensively, but while Nash gets credit for charges, Amare rarely gets credit for the shots he occassionally blocks because people notice just how often he fails on defense. That’s a byproduct of the fact that there are far fewer places for Amare to hid on defense, and Amare is nowhere near as popular as Nash.

  • JTaylor21

    Please don’t tell me that you said that Steve Nash is an underrated defender. You’re FU*KING joking right. Anyways @AllenP Kidd played with a lesser squad and took them to 2 straight Finals, you might hold it against him for not at least winning one chip but I don’t. KMart was PUMMELED by TD in the Finals and they ran into the Most Dominant Ever in the other finals, so there was nothing kidd could do to help KMart and their bigs from getting annihilated in the paint. Like I said before Kidd is the better passer, rebounder, thief, and all-around player than Frazier, also for all the talk about Kidd being a bad shooter why is he in the TOP 10 all-time in 3PTs made and with a very good percentage at that. There’s no way that a supposedly bad shooter can have those kind of numbers. Also who says Triple Double be dammed, WHAT? So Oscar and Magic’s triple doubles don’t count for anything when trying to explain their greatness, be real bra. Stop ignoring numbers only when they don’t add to your argument.

  • The Philosopher

    Allen:
    I don’t think it is the media.
    I could be wrong.
    I tend to think it is strategy, BECAUSE Nash is adept at drawing offensive fouls.
    One can argue that a coach can put Nash on a bigger guard TO get calls to go in his favor.
    And, then one has to wonder, why would a coach put Nash on a bigger guy if he was so defensively deficient? You know?
    He is a smart, cagey defender.
    Laterally, well…
    Stockton couldn’t stay in front of his man, either, contrary to popular opinion.

  • http://slamonline BossTerry

    Anyone else seen that show- NBA wives? I didnt notice it when he was playing. But Eric Williams is one goofy looking dude. Think he mighta drank a cup full of Popeye Jones’ sweat..

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    JtTaylor
    Only someone grossly underinformed would think that the fact that Kidd has shot sub-40 PERCENT on numerous times during his career is not proof that he is a bad shooter. Hell, Kidd has never even cracked 45 percent as a shooter. He’s a career 35 percent shooter from three, and that’s thanks to some amazing improvement since he’s come to dallas.
    Look at his shooting numbers, they tell the true story of what type of shooter he is, not his cumulative three point numbers. The fact that has NEVER averaged 20 points per game, and has regularly shot less than 40 percent is all the proof I need abotu what he can do as a scorer.
    In that category he doesn’t compare to Frazier, and you’ve yet to provid any proof for why he’s the better defender besides overrated steals numbers which do not even account for the fact that the League didn’t keep stats on steals for hte first five years of Frazier’s career.
    Also, while it’s true that the Nets had a talent deficiency, it’s also true that Kidd shot poorly in the Finals. According to Basketball Reference, he scored 19 a game on 36 percent shooting from the floor and 27 percent from 3.
    And while Kenyon Martin got killed by Duncan and played poorly himself, Kidd didn’t exactly shutdown Tony Parker and he only made 44 of 121 shots! WTH
    Nah, you can keep pretending that horrendous shooting from your point guard is acceptable if he puts up high assist numbers if you want, but I know better.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    No Philosopher they don’t put Nash on “bigger guards.” They put Nash on the weakest possible offensive player, like Rudy Fernandez or Bruce Bowen, and hope for the best. They had Nash guard Derek Fisher because they thought Fisher was the weakest offensive player for hte Lakers, and Fisher became more aggressive than he had been the entire playoffs.

  • The Philosopher

    Rudy Fernandez is a big guard, no?
    Bowen too, no?
    If they were putting Nash on the weakest offensive player, then he should be guarding some centers, no?

  • dma

    shout out to rodney rodgers! jwill followed by jkidd. nice two hit combo.

  • http://www.twitter.com/gerardhimself Gerard Himself

    as a Nets fan, I was also a huge Kidd fan. He could impose his will without scoring a single bucket. During the Final days of the Nets it was joy to see Kidd play.

  • JTaylor21

    AllenP when did I ever say that Kidd was the better defender than Frazier? All I said was that he’s the better thief, so stop twisting up my words just to make it seem like I’m clueless on the situation. Also I never said that Kidd was a great shooter, all I’m saying is that his not as bad as a shooter as you think, you act like dude’s rondo or something. Also Rondo has a way better FG% than Kidd but does that make him the BETTER shot, HELL NO. JKidd has shown through out his career that if you leave him open or give him space, he will knock down the shot unlike a guy like Rondo. Also you’re quick to point out his finals scoring numbers vs the spurs but FAIL to point his great all-around numbers. You tend to judge a player by only at the points he scores while I tend to look at it from an all-around contribution perspective. Frazier is the better scorer and slightly better defender but Kidd is the better thief and better PLAYER.

  • http://idunkonthem.blogspot.com/ albie1kenobi

    @Philosopher: that statement doesn’t even make logical sense. even if the opposing center is a dud like jason collins, no sane coach or person will ask a player to guard someone who’s 8+ inches taller and 50 pounds heavier. that’s the definition of mismatch.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    Just want to state that I NEVER argued that Nash was better than Kidd. That is pretty ridiculous. Kidd is way better than Nash in just about everyway outside of shooting (by a lot) and passing (by a TINGE).
    It’s Bryan who argues that Nash is better than Jason Kidd, and that’s more because Bryan dislikes Jason Kidd than he likes Steve Nash.
    NOW I will disagree about the Payton stuff… I think Payton’s more on the level of Nash than he is Kidd. Payton was a LOCKDOWN defender, ridiculously so, but I always thought his scoring and passing was overrated. He chucked a lot of shots (his percentages were not great) and he always had mental lapses where he just missed hitting people. He was great finding the cutters, but I don’t think he really CREATED offense well enough.
    I don’t think I’ve ever been a great Payton fan though.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    JTaylor21: You live in bizarro world, bro. Outside of recently, pretty much everyone left Jason Kidd open.

  • The Philosopher

    @albie1kenobi:
    I was just attempting to stress a point about Steve Nash’s defensive prowess based on what Allenp said.
    Now, of course Nash isn’t going to guard centers, but if he is going to guard a bigger player who tends to be slower than an average point guard, Nash’s defensive acumen is highlighted more because of his anticipation of where to be when guarding said player hence, drawing charges. This is a reason why he was guarding Fisher instead of Kobe in The Playoffs. Fisher would give him less problems than other point guards, normally.
    His lateral inadequacies are less obvious in those situations.

  • total scrotal implosion

    Philosopher, with those weak arguments, is a fecesthief. That goes for anyone else trying to explain how nash isnt a horrible defender. A charge once every five games means nothing. nash is extremely overrated and it makes me sick that he has two mvps and kidd has none. Check kidds jersey stats , then nashs mvp seasons, laugh all day

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Jukai
    To put Payton and Nash in the same sentence is LUDACRIS and just PLAIN STUPID. Nash can’t even hold Payton jock strap. Can you please compare whole careers and not Nash 3 good years in Phx. The only reason you try to put him with Payton is because of those bogus MVP’s. After that crap I and I know other folks almost stop watching the NBA, because that was crap. Payton played defensed could get 20 points a game and people forget. Seattle gave the Bulls a run for the money that year in the Finals, I feel they should have won Finals, but some breaks didn’t go that way. Payton is ten times better than the overrated Nash, and I would take PAYTON over KIDD anyday. Don’t ever put Nash and Payton name in a sentence again or you lose your creditablitiy as one of the intelligent commenters.

  • The Philosopher

    @tsi:
    As I’ve told someone else before, stats do not tell the entire story in many instances.
    Wait a minute…
    Feces thief???
    Are you The Legendary…
    TARZAN “Turdburglar” COOPER???
    Tell me you are.

  • The Philosopher

    Anyways…
    A charge once every 5 possessions is more accurate.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    The Seed: Why do you think, after every single unintelligent phrase you’ve ever typed into the comment section, I’d read farther than “Jukai”
    I’ll debate anyone else toe to toe, but not you. I don’t even know why you’re still here.

  • abaci

    i think Payton is better than Kidd. Slam thank
    you for repeatedly giving love to Souls of
    Mischief and the whole hieroglyphics crew.

  • JTaylor21

    TSI is a 1000% right about SNash. It pains me as a b-ball fan to see that people claim that this dude is anywhere in the same vicinity as other great point guards. Him winning 2 MVPs in a row which put him in a list with names like MJ/Kareem/Duncan/Bron makes my stomach churn, talk about someone not BELONGING. People act like he’s this GREAT offensive juggernaut and that somehow outweighs his NON DEFENSIVE a**, his best numbers are so AVERAGE when compared to other great point guards best years that’s it’s laugable. Nash is one of the MOST overrated players in league history. Also @The Seed, GREAT comment on Nash and Payton.

  • xplore

    SO CASUAL FOR THE NBA

  • JTaylor21

    @Jukai, I would say that I fully AGREE with you on the GP’s offensive game being overrated. I watched him a bunch of times in the playoffs and dude just plain and simple to lacks a great offensive game. His jump shot was really suspect, his passing skills were above average, he struggled to make the right pass on the fast break like many GREAT point guards excel in, and he STRUGGLED to create offense for others consistently as you stated. GPs a TOP-5 perimeter defender of all-time which seems to hide the fact that he was good not GREAT offensively.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Pardeep

    J-Kidd’s career doesn’t get enough praise…. amazing career in my opinion better then Nash’s

  • http://www.shawnkemp.com Masr

    All these arguements about who is better between kidd and frazier are hard because when you decide to compare what they did in their respective times in the league to each other and say if kidd were in frazier’s era he would have done this and vice versa. Kind of the same thing with shaq and wilt when it comes to most dominant player ever, what would have each other did if they switched places in their times but thats another arguement for another day.

  • L

    Souls of mischiefs! L

  • tavoris

    I had sooooo much to say…but then I realize everybody already said it.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Todd Spehr

    I’m not going to pretend I know who’s better between Frazier and Kidd because I don’t, both were great players for their respective eras, but I will say this much: If I were to choose which POINT GUARD I would want on my team, I’d choose the guy who takes three less shots over his career, gets three more assists, and has proven that he can lift the level of his teammates. That’s Jason Kidd. We know Kidd made his teammates better – we saw it. What about Frazier? He won just one playoff game in the last six years of his career after Reed and DB left, so how do we know he raised the level of his teammates? We don’t. Isn’t that what you want out of a point guard?

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Allenp: If good thieves aren’t good defenders, what exactly do you call a person who can steal the ball? Steals are very important and can often lead to something good in transition–a good thief is (usually) a good defender because he knows how to read the defense and he knows when to gamble. There are different kinds of defense, and I think great on-the-ball defenders usually are the ones getting hyped up the most.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Todd Spehr

    Btw, fun Kidd fact: Has more boards than Stockton, more assists than Oscar, more steals than Magic, more 3s made than Nash.

  • tavoris

    Teddy-ur correct. However, steals aren’t an accurate barometer of a player playing good D. Most of the great on-ball defenders rarely got steals (because they rarely gambled). Frazier would force players where he wanted them to d, and when he wanted to stop someone, THEY WOULD NOT SCORE.
    The only other players who could guarantee a stop were Pippen, and Bill Russell.

  • The Philosopher

    ^^Rodman, too.
    Now, I’m not saying that Nash is a great defender
    Not even a very good defender.
    He is just smart, cagey, and underrated in that category.

  • tavoris

    @The Philosopher-I wanna include Rodman in that category, but he was a better team defender than individual defender. He was the dude that kept everyone in their place on that end.
    and Nash is pretty sucky on D. It’s excuseable because he carries so much of an offensive load. But, he’s always been indifferent on that end (unless he was in position to draw a charge)

  • JTaylor21

    @tavoris but when does it become a MAJOR negative regardless of his contributions on offense. That’s one of the reasons why the suns haven’t being able to make it very far in the postseason due to Nash inability to slow down even the most average point guards. He doesn’t bring ANYTHING positive to the table in regards to defense and is nothing but a serious NEGATIVE on D. His inability to defend anybody to me OUTWEIGHS all his offensive contributions by a TON.

  • tavoris

    I wouldn’t go that far. The Suns wouldn’t have improved if that was the case. Players go to Phoenix-and immediately get better.

  • Ronald

    Why does everyone call Oscar a PG? Wasn’t he really a SF?

  • Ronald

    Steals, charges, and blocks are all underrated stats for defense. The media likes to downplay these stats for some reason. You have to realize that these stats means that the player/team basically loses a shot on a play.

  • tavoris

    Ronald-most of the steals leaders gamble incessantly. They give up buckets trying to get a steal.
    Most of the block shot leaders have foul trouble issues. Instead if just contesting a shot, they’ll put themselves in a position to foul.
    And whoever started keeping track of charges needs to be shot. Flopping is a pu$$y move.

  • jammal o

    todd at 831. WOW

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Thank you Tavoris. Many good defenders don’t have gaudy steal or block numbers becauase they play solid, position based defense. Look at someone like Shane Battier who is considered one of the best defenders in the league, and then compare him to someone like Marcus Camby who plays horrible pick and roll defense and average on-ball defense but is lauded for blocking lots of shots. Yes, steals, charges and blocks are important but using them as “proof” that someone plays defense is always faulty logic. Allen Iverson, my favorite player, led the league in steals for several seasons but honestly he has always been an average overall defender and an amazing ball hawk. Depending on the team, he’s a liability or a disruptive force. It all depends on the competition.
    On Frazier and Kidd.
    Kidd has not raised the level of play in Dallas in his second go around, and his first time in D-Town was also a flameout. Phoenix actually did just fine without Kidd, who regularly flamed out in the playoffs while with the Suns. New Jersey is the place where he really shined and no one can deny that, but when he lost his fast breaking running mates, the team’s play declined tremendously even with talent around him.
    Kidd is a great point, top ten, but Frazier was a great passer in a time when assist numbers were not inflated, and on a team that stressed everyone touching the ball and making cuts and passes. He was a superior defender, a far superior scorer and roughly equal as a rebounder. No, he didn’t have Kidd’s longevity, but in his prime, I think he was better than Kidd, period. But, I can see that argument isn’t going to change many more minds, so thanks for the discussion.

  • Loaf

    i love reading through these comments at 7:30am in the morning while i am drinking my tea at work

    breaks me into work gentley, interesting read and great discussions, though JT your an ignorant *&%$£ AllenP your a smart dude and the philospher? your the TRUTH!

  • RedRum

    come on guys… great numbers, great defense, great leader. He lead his team to two finals, which he lost against the two best teams of the last 15 years. second in assists, 3rd in triple Os, only player in the history with 15k, 10k and 7k!!! Frazier, Cousy, et al were great, but look at the numbers, they are nowhere near Kidd.

  • The Philosopher

    @Loaf:
    Appreciate it.
    I really do.

  • http://deleted KH10

    JKidd is so dope he makes Rodney Rogers and Tom Gugliotta look good!

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I would urge everyone to do a historical player search on Gary Payton and look at his stats, and then think about how he used to get in the cheeks of both Kidd and Stockton when they played together.

  • tavoris

    GP was a monster on D.

  • unrel

    at this point.. who cares who the best is.. all that matters is that it’s great with j.kidd throws a lob.. then jumps himself as the ‘ooper’ catches and dunks it.. ie: oop to shaq and oop to kmart..

  • The Philosopher

    ^^I noticed the same thing.
    You’ve explained it so eloquently.
    I’ve always found that fascinating about him.

  • tavoris

    @Allenp-Payton used to lock up every PG but KJ. KJ’s off-the-ball game was always a problem

  • jufu

    jkidd is my favorite player of all time so i’m biased but who the hell is high enough to put freaking isiah thomas and clyde frazier in front of kidd?

  • jufu

    by the way, can someone tell me if jason kidd, in his prime, ever ran with a self-made all star? food for thought.

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