For Old Time’s Sake: Jason Kidd

Philospher
A steal helps, but what if the player’s actions to get the steal involve gambling on almost every play to the point where he throws of the team’s defensive rotations and help? Iverson.
Or, what about players who routinely flop with the hope of drawing a charge instead of playing physical defense, and only get one charge for every four flops?
Nash.
I think both stats can be positives for a team, but just like scoring, it all depends on what you do to get your numbers.

And also, Nash is a decent enough help defender to where a team is going to get more positives out of Nash’s defense than negatives, when looking at the overall product.

Please don’t tell me that you said that Steve Nash is an underrated defender. You’re FU*KING joking right. Anyways @AllenP Kidd played with a lesser squad and took them to 2 straight Finals, you might hold it against him for not at least winning one chip but I don’t. KMart was PUMMELED by TD in the Finals and they ran into the Most Dominant Ever in the other finals, so there was nothing kidd could do to help KMart and their bigs from getting annihilated in the paint. Like I said before Kidd is the better passer, rebounder, thief, and all-around player than Frazier, also for all the talk about Kidd being a bad shooter why is he in the TOP 10 all-time in 3PTs made and with a very good percentage at that. There’s no way that a supposedly bad shooter can have those kind of numbers. Also who says Triple Double be dammed, WHAT? So Oscar and Magic’s triple doubles don’t count for anything when trying to explain their greatness, be real bra. Stop ignoring numbers only when they don’t add to your argument.

Anyone else seen that show- NBA wives? I didnt notice it when he was playing. But Eric Williams is one goofy looking dude. Think he mighta drank a cup full of Popeye Jones’ sweat..

No Philosopher they don’t put Nash on “bigger guards.” They put Nash on the weakest possible offensive player, like Rudy Fernandez or Bruce Bowen, and hope for the best. They had Nash guard Derek Fisher because they thought Fisher was the weakest offensive player for hte Lakers, and Fisher became more aggressive than he had been the entire playoffs.

shout out to rodney rodgers! jwill followed by jkidd. nice two hit combo.

AllenP when did I ever say that Kidd was the better defender than Frazier? All I said was that he’s the better thief, so stop twisting up my words just to make it seem like I’m clueless on the situation. Also I never said that Kidd was a great shooter, all I’m saying is that his not as bad as a shooter as you think, you act like dude’s rondo or something. Also Rondo has a way better FG% than Kidd but does that make him the BETTER shot, HELL NO. JKidd has shown through out his career that if you leave him open or give him space, he will knock down the shot unlike a guy like Rondo. Also you’re quick to point out his finals scoring numbers vs the spurs but FAIL to point his great all-around numbers. You tend to judge a player by only at the points he scores while I tend to look at it from an all-around contribution perspective. Frazier is the better scorer and slightly better defender but Kidd is the better thief and better PLAYER.

Just want to state that I NEVER argued that Nash was better than Kidd. That is pretty ridiculous. Kidd is way better than Nash in just about everyway outside of shooting (by a lot) and passing (by a TINGE).
It’s Bryan who argues that Nash is better than Jason Kidd, and that’s more because Bryan dislikes Jason Kidd than he likes Steve Nash.
NOW I will disagree about the Payton stuff… I think Payton’s more on the level of Nash than he is Kidd. Payton was a LOCKDOWN defender, ridiculously so, but I always thought his scoring and passing was overrated. He chucked a lot of shots (his percentages were not great) and he always had mental lapses where he just missed hitting people. He was great finding the cutters, but I don’t think he really CREATED offense well enough.
I don’t think I’ve ever been a great Payton fan though.

@albie1kenobi:
I was just attempting to stress a point about Steve Nash’s defensive prowess based on what Allenp said.
Now, of course Nash isn’t going to guard centers, but if he is going to guard a bigger player who tends to be slower than an average point guard, Nash’s defensive acumen is highlighted more because of his anticipation of where to be when guarding said player hence, drawing charges. This is a reason why he was guarding Fisher instead of Kobe in The Playoffs. Fisher would give him less problems than other point guards, normally.
His lateral inadequacies are less obvious in those situations.

Jukai
To put Payton and Nash in the same sentence is LUDACRIS and just PLAIN STUPID. Nash can’t even hold Payton jock strap. Can you please compare whole careers and not Nash 3 good years in Phx. The only reason you try to put him with Payton is because of those bogus MVP’s. After that crap I and I know other folks almost stop watching the NBA, because that was crap. Payton played defensed could get 20 points a game and people forget. Seattle gave the Bulls a run for the money that year in the Finals, I feel they should have won Finals, but some breaks didn’t go that way. Payton is ten times better than the overrated Nash, and I would take PAYTON over KIDD anyday. Don’t ever put Nash and Payton name in a sentence again or you lose your creditablitiy as one of the intelligent commenters.

Anyways…
A charge once every 5 possessions is more accurate.

i think Payton is better than Kidd. Slam thank
you for repeatedly giving love to Souls of
Mischief and the whole hieroglyphics crew.

SO CASUAL FOR THE NBA

J-Kidd’s career doesn’t get enough praise…. amazing career in my opinion better then Nash’s

Souls of mischiefs! L

I’m not going to pretend I know who’s better between Frazier and Kidd because I don’t, both were great players for their respective eras, but I will say this much: If I were to choose which POINT GUARD I would want on my team, I’d choose the guy who takes three less shots over his career, gets three more assists, and has proven that he can lift the level of his teammates. That’s Jason Kidd. We know Kidd made his teammates better – we saw it. What about Frazier? He won just one playoff game in the last six years of his career after Reed and DB left, so how do we know he raised the level of his teammates? We don’t. Isn’t that what you want out of a point guard?

Btw, fun Kidd fact: Has more boards than Stockton, more assists than Oscar, more steals than Magic, more 3s made than Nash.

^^Rodman, too.
Now, I’m not saying that Nash is a great defender
Not even a very good defender.
He is just smart, cagey, and underrated in that category.

@tavoris but when does it become a MAJOR negative regardless of his contributions on offense. That’s one of the reasons why the suns haven’t being able to make it very far in the postseason due to Nash inability to slow down even the most average point guards. He doesn’t bring ANYTHING positive to the table in regards to defense and is nothing but a serious NEGATIVE on D. His inability to defend anybody to me OUTWEIGHS all his offensive contributions by a TON.

Why does everyone call Oscar a PG? Wasn’t he really a SF?

Ronald-most of the steals leaders gamble incessantly. They give up buckets trying to get a steal.
Most of the block shot leaders have foul trouble issues. Instead if just contesting a shot, they’ll put themselves in a position to foul.
And whoever started keeping track of charges needs to be shot. Flopping is a pu$$y move.

Thank you Tavoris. Many good defenders don’t have gaudy steal or block numbers becauase they play solid, position based defense. Look at someone like Shane Battier who is considered one of the best defenders in the league, and then compare him to someone like Marcus Camby who plays horrible pick and roll defense and average on-ball defense but is lauded for blocking lots of shots. Yes, steals, charges and blocks are important but using them as “proof” that someone plays defense is always faulty logic. Allen Iverson, my favorite player, led the league in steals for several seasons but honestly he has always been an average overall defender and an amazing ball hawk. Depending on the team, he’s a liability or a disruptive force. It all depends on the competition.
On Frazier and Kidd.
Kidd has not raised the level of play in Dallas in his second go around, and his first time in D-Town was also a flameout. Phoenix actually did just fine without Kidd, who regularly flamed out in the playoffs while with the Suns. New Jersey is the place where he really shined and no one can deny that, but when he lost his fast breaking running mates, the team’s play declined tremendously even with talent around him.
Kidd is a great point, top ten, but Frazier was a great passer in a time when assist numbers were not inflated, and on a team that stressed everyone touching the ball and making cuts and passes. He was a superior defender, a far superior scorer and roughly equal as a rebounder. No, he didn’t have Kidd’s longevity, but in his prime, I think he was better than Kidd, period. But, I can see that argument isn’t going to change many more minds, so thanks for the discussion.

come on guys… great numbers, great defense, great leader. He lead his team to two finals, which he lost against the two best teams of the last 15 years. second in assists, 3rd in triple Os, only player in the history with 15k, 10k and 7k!!! Frazier, Cousy, et al were great, but look at the numbers, they are nowhere near Kidd.

JKidd is so dope he makes Rodney Rogers and Tom Gugliotta look good!

GP was a monster on D.