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Friday, September 17th, 2010 at 10:40 am  |  162 responses

For Old Time’s Sake: Larry Bird

Best forward of all time? Certainly up for debate. Best white boy of all time? No question. Larry legend’s story is classic. Small town, country boy from the Mid West turned college superstar and NBA Legend. Coming from humble beginnings, he never craved the spotlight but found himself there more often than not because of his abilities. Bird was not blessed with speed or hops but he left it all on the floor, made plays in big spots, and had classic rivalries with NBA greats like Magic and MJ. He earned the MVP award 3 years in a row from ’84 – ’86, won 3 Titles (2x Finals MVP), was a 12x NBA All Star, 3x 3-point contest winner, plus a looooot more and to boot…he was the coach of the year with the Pacers in ’98. The man knows basketball. Ok a few more… he averaged over 30 pts/game @ Indiana State, led ISU to the ’79 Championship game against Earvin “Magic” Johnson and Michigan State (but lost), won the NBA ROY in 1980, was named one of the 50 greatest players of all time, and then inducted into the HOF. Bird was a phenomenal shooter, great passer, and a lot more physical than people give him credit for. After his 13-year career, this is what his average stats looked like: 24.3 pts, 10 rbs, 6.3 asts, 1.9 3pt. 1.7 stls. He pretty much did it all.

@Schneezy

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  • http://brimartin13@gmail.com Brion

    The Hick from French Lick baby!!!!!

  • JoeMaMa

    Larry Bird was amazing…but…can’t take my eyes off…Michael Jordan’s 90s wardrobe…

  • Overtime

    Now we’re talking about a legend. Larry Legend. Top 5. Top 3 is absolutely arguable

  • http://www.slamonline.com/ niQ

    For a second I thought Overtime said arguably arguable. lol

  • http://www.yamahyouth.com Gerwin

    The McD commercial. I’m lovin’ it! Makes me feel old though…..

  • fresh

    Larry was a killer. Magic himself was in ah of him

  • TrailBlazing&SportingLisbon

    dude knew how to pass a basketball, and MJ´s clothes were just stupid, lol

  • Brian

    “Today is a day of great and short people” Bird said after he and Spud Webb won the 3pt and dunk contest at the AS weekend. “I’m great and the rest of you are short.”
    The only SF to ever win 3 straight MVP’s.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    that left-handed follow is easily one of the best plays in NBA history. Who shoots a jumpers, runs it down, then jumps out of bounds, and can shoot it back up with their left hand? I’ve never seen that duplicated.
    Also, that left handed bounce pass at the beginning by the point guard to Bird, when Bird reversed it, was a think of beauty.

  • http://theurbangriot.com The Nupe

    Gotta give him props, being so slow and with alomost no vertical leap he wouldn’t even make a top 1000 list for most athletic NBA players of all time. But he had so much skill, hustle and heart, he’s easily one of the greatest of all time.

  • http://itsahardwoodlife.blogspot.com omphalos

    Greatest white player of all time? Lacked crazy athleticism or hops, but damn did he hustle. Larry is a legend.

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    My great grandmother’s favorite player. Yessir!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Todd Spehr

    You learn something new about basketball every time you watch him – yes, even now when his games run on Classic or NBA TV. For what it’s worth, the best forward I’ve ever seen.

  • Brian

    I don’t think calling Bird slow is all that accurate. He could fly up the court his first 5 or so years in the L.
    Accepting his MVP’s in his bowling shirt, rigging his Bronco console into a cooler for his beer and answering “Yup, it’s going to the Larry Bird Fund” when asked if he was going to donate his 3pt award money to charity were all epic.
    Can’t see AI getting away with that stuff.

  • http://slam TERENCE ANG

    the best all around player in the history of the NBA…Yes, above oscar and pippen..

  • JTaylor21

    @Terrence, WHOA WHOA slow your roll buddy, no way is he a BETTER all-around player than Pip and Oscar even Magic. There’s a little something called defense that all those guys played especially Pip and something that in the immortal words of chuck; Larry has never played defense in his life. Great all-around offense player but when talking about getting it done on both ends, dude comes up short.

  • onlyclipsfanonslam

    I might get some heat for this. TOP 5 PLAYER OF ALL TIME.

  • hammer

    @ terrence ang. Above pip!? Now that’s what I call goin out on a limb there. No way n hell! U gotta play d 2 b considered an all around player. And pip was the best perimeter defender of all time

  • onlyclipsfanonslam

    So many people hating on Bird’s game. Bird is better than Pip as an all around player.

    Better scorer, shooter, passer, and rebounder.

    Pip is only better at steals.

    Pip and Bird are equals when it comes to shot blocking.

    I think too many people underrate how great Bird actually was because he is white.

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    Larry Bird is one of the best to ever lace them up – a player who didn’t just put stats up, but he was an unquestioned leader, who brought the best out of his teammates.

  • http://thephotoriot.com davidR

    can’t comment on larry’s defense cause i was too young to really analyze and remember his game, but for those saying he’s ahead of pip: could larry shut people down one on one? sure he gets steals, but was he a blackhole on defense? just doesnt seem feasible given how unathletic and slow he is.

  • onlyclipsfanonslam

    @davidR you said you don’t remember him, then why do you say he was unathletic? Rebounds is still a defensive category is it not? and he is a completely better rebounder than Pip

  • http://slamonline BossTerry

    Bird’s smarts and shooting touch made up for him being slow and under athletic.. Im with clips fan- top 5 player all time.. I remember on super nintendo’s NBA game (93ish) he was unmissable beyond the 3.. (great player in real life too).

  • JTaylor21

    @onlyclips, apart from rebounding, Pip destroys Bird in every other defensive skill. Bird shouldn’t even be in the same continent as Pip when it comes to defense, that’s why Pip is the best all-around player of all-time because he did it on both ends of the floor.

  • hammer

    @onlyclipsfan. There u go. Bringing race n2 this debate. Is that ur argument? I luv. He is an all-time gr8,possibly top 5. But reality is pip was a better defensive player than bird. Hands down! Or have ya’ll 4got already? Larry couldn’t play d. Better shooter,scorer,passer? Yes I’ll give u that. Pip was a better defender as well as steals and a better ball handler than bird was. Pip is a definition of all around player

  • http://slamonline BossTerry

    Im gonna back-pedal on my comment a little bit- Top 5 player POST 1985.. I didnt watch the NBA when they played in black and white, and whenever a g.o.a.t discussion comes up, I usually try to avoid because some of the players of the 60s and 70s I have no knowledge of…

  • Robb

    Bird didn’t suck at defense, he was a better defender than Magic! this coming from a lakers fan

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Being a better defender than Magic is like being a better defender than Steve Nash. It ain’t saying much.
    Also, Bird vs. Tim Duncan.
    Who was the better forward?

  • onlyclipsfanonslam

    @hammer/Jtaylor rebounding is a defensive stat. Yes Pip might be a better defender 1 on 1 but Bird was great in his rotations. You can be a great defensive player without being a great one on one defender. Ask Marcus Camby and Anderson Verajao. Most of you don’t even remember Bird games so I don’t know why I bother

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I can’t believe someone played the “Bird doesn’t get enough credit because he’s white!” card.
    That shoudl result in an automatic banning from any future basketball discussions, seriously. The only player who gets more love and credit than Larry Bird in the history of the NBA is Michael Jordan. Seriously, there was a whole special dedicated to the fact that Larry Bird turned 50! What the hell?

  • http://dsfjkldf.com Jukai

    Bird was a pretty good defender. One-on-one he was decent and in an error with lots of great small fowards (King, English, Dantley, Wilkins) Bird could get blown by.
    What made Bird so valuable, and what got Bird his 3× NBA All-Defensive Second Team selections (something that was not mentioned above) was how he could grab steals without gambling too much, his helpside defense which was tremendous (perfect double teaming, great leading his defender into the bigmen on the team, never trailed too far from his man) and his shot blocking was underrated too- earlier in Bird’s career, pre-back injuries, Bird would play this game where if he knew a smaller defender was too fast for him, he’d let the guy blow past him then block the hell out of them from behind. Saw that twice in a game I watched from him, it was perfectly planned every time.
    So while Magic certainly could be considered a ‘subpar’ defender, I think it’s ridiculous to consider Larry Bird a bad defender. He controlled his team’s defense, and made up for his iso shortcomings by playing incredibly efficient team defense, and wrecking the passing lanes.
    And people do underrate Bird cause he’s white. He probably is the only player with this problem, in fairness.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Oh, and Michael Jordan was not too far behind Pippen as a defender, and clearly far beyond him as a offensive player. How can Pippen be the best “all-around player” considering those facts, particularly since glancing at their assist and rebound numbers shows only a small difference?

  • http://dsfjkldf.com Jukai

    Bird vs Duncan is a very tough one. Bird was a better player, clearly, but Ducan is a big who could effect the game in more ways. I’m not sure which one I’d take if I had to start a pickup game.

  • http://dsfjkldf.com Jukai

    Allenp: GREAT F’ING POINT about Jordan. PEople act like Pippen was such a better defender, but I’d say they are dead even.
    Sure, as an iso defender, Pippen was well ahead of Jordan.
    But Jordan could do things Pippen couldn’t— get more steals, block more shots, people were AFRAID to take shots with Jordan around cause Jordan could block them. Dude blocked Shaq from behind!
    I mean, just great point.

  • onlyclipsfanonslam

    @allenp Bird and it’s not close. Just look at the legends Bird beat in his finals matchups. The best player Timmy beat in a finals was LeBron, and he wasn’t even the best player that series, that was the year of Manu before going bald. IF you want to do stats as well, cmon Bird kills Timmy. Bird is Dirk with better handles, better rebounding, better defense, and on 9 out of 10 nights the toughest SOB on the court.

  • onlyclipsfanonslam

    @jukai thanks for backing up all my points.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    So, if your were starting a team, you would rather draft Larry Bird over Tim Duncan?
    Nah, I would take Tim Duncan every time.
    Great post scorer, dominant rebounder, INSANE defender, underrated passer. Plus, look at his longevity and the small amount of decline in his game.
    Now, Bird is more versatile and more clutch, but other than that, I don’t see any big advantage to having him on my team.
    And, you and Jukai are both out of your gourds about Bird. In the mainstream world, Larry Bird is the Babe Ruth of basketball. Sure, maybe here on SLAM you get a few cats throwing stones, but in the overall world, he gets more love than everybody not named Jordan. AGain, the fact that he turned 40 was a cause for a freaking tv special! Who else gets that?

  • The Philosopher

    Bird is the Greatest Shooter of All Times…
    To attempt to answer Allenp’s question, Bird or Duncan, I would go with Bird.
    You can place him anywhere on the floor, and he will prosper.
    Duncan? Well…
    Bird is among the most clutch and intelligent players of any era.
    If one were to state that Bird is the best ever, they have an interesting argument.
    He is almost the perfect basketball player.
    Truly revolutionized the game.
    Now many big guys can shoot and pass, and dribble, because of Earvin, and Larry Joe.
    And, Bird CAN handle the ball like a guard.

  • Brian

    Larry Bird was the 1st SF to ever dominate the L. He won 3 straight MVP’s in an ERA when you needed a big man to succeed.
    Aside from a lifetime achievement MVP for Dr J. in ’81 the award was won by a center going back to 1964.
    3 people have won 3 straight MVP’s in history, Russell, Wilt and Bird.
    If you don’t take Bird over Tim Duncan (Bird played with a better PF on his team) then there is something wrong with you.

  • http://dsfjkldf.com/ Jukai

    Kobe is a better shooter though…………

  • http://dsfjkldf.com Jukai

    Allenp: When you talk about overrated or underrated, you solely talk about ESPN. I talk about writers on blogs, cats on the internet, the guys I play basketball with on the basketball court.
    Sure, to the white douchebags who sit on the desk in Atlanta and shout out “BIRD NEVER F*$(ING LEAVE HIS TEAM LIKE LEBRON DID BIRD IS THE BEST COMPETITOR OF ALL TIME!” yeah, Bird is somehow conceivably overrated. But I do feel like Bird doesn’t get his due to a lot of the common NBA fan.
    I’m really unsure about the Duncan. As I said, Bird is a way better scorer, a superior passer, and WAY more clutch.
    Duncan, however, is still a big man. He has more value. So I dunno. I’d probably take Bird, but only 6 times out of 10.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Bird was a phenomenal scorer, passer, AND rebounder. D@mn good player, one of the greatest to ever play the game–no questions asked.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    @ Allenp: Uhhh, actually I’d say more people ride Magic’s jock than Bird’s. By a long shot. Anyone remember when Spike Lee (one of my favorite directors of all time) calling Bird the “most overrated player of all time”? Wow.
    Not sure if this applies to Bird, but at a certain point a player is considered overrated by so many that he suddenly becomes underrated. And vice versa.

  • JTaylor21

    @AllenP, I’ve to disagree with you saying that MJ was close to Pip defensively. It wasn’t by a big margin but it wasn’t close. Remember that as soon as the 90s began, Pip was the bulls BEST defender bar none. He literally guarded all 4 positions at anytime, he was the one that slowed than Magic when MJ couldn’t, shutdown MJackson, and had one of the BEST defensive seasons of all time when MJ retired. Just go back and watch the 90s bulls play and you will see just how GOOD a defender Pip was. He basically was their best perimeter defender, help-side defender, double-teammer, and shot-blocker during their 90s run. I knew that dude as a great defender but every time I watch the bulls, he amazes me even more and consistently makes defensive plays that few in history can. Give me PIP over MJ on the defensive end any F*CKING day.

  • JTaylor21

    @Jukai, don’t start this Kobe’s a better shooter than Bird BS, OLD MAN PLEASE are you taking your MEDS?

  • http://www.dontevenreply.com total scrotal implosion

    Brian has a point about bird getting away with some stuff. Bird vs timmy. Bird can play on the perimeter, timmy dominates the post, on BOTH sides of the ball. Id say they are equally clutch. Timmy has had a longer career, won more awards, aside from 2 reg mvps to birds 3. And timmy won 4 titles, and counting. Bird was a truly great player, no question, but he has been idolized. So much so that people make dumb statements like ‘bird was almost the perfect ballplayer, he truly revolutionized the game, and he played with a better pf than timmy. Philosopher and brian should slap themselves fo that. And jukai too, for not giving it up when he is so blatantly wrong.

  • http://dsfjkldf.com Jukai

    JTaylor: Right, Pippen slowed down Magic when MJ couldn’t cause Pippen was a better iso defender. He wasn’t as great on the weakside, and couldn’t block the shots simply because he didn’t have the leap that Jordan did.
    Jordan also got more steals, but I’m sure you’ll fall back on excuse #34: gambling.

  • http://dsfjkldf.com Jukai

    BTW, 3:39pm was not me.

  • Brian

    @ total scrotal – what can Tim Duncan do that Kevin McHale couldn’t? McHale covered Jordan, the young Jordan at that.

  • http://www.dimemag.com Royal

    Dang, I wish I was old enough to have witnessed Larry Bird and Magic’s battles

  • http://www.dimemag.com Royal

    Dang, I wish I was old enough to have witnessed Larry Bird and Magic’s battles

  • hammer

    Co-sign jtaylor @ 3:56. 1000% agreed

  • http://dsfjkldf.com Jukai

    Er, c’mon… Tim Ducan is a better scorer, rebounder, passer, and defender than McHale. Actually, the question is, could McHale do anything better than Tim DUncan? (and the answer is pretty much no).
    Brian is acting like Timmy D couldn’t cover that young Jordan.

  • http://www.dimemag.com Royal

    Might as well say it a third time ……… Dang, I wish I was old enough to have witnessed larry bird and magic’s battles

  • JTaylor21

    @Jukai, sure that wasn’t you just like the old gizzard I saw chasing young tail in the club last night wasn’t you. RIGHT. Like I stated in my comment, at the beginning of the nineties Pip became the better defender but you probably missed that due to cataracts.

  • hammer

    @jukai. Pip and mj had the same vertical leap. @ 47 or 48 if I’m not mistaken. So don’t bring that n2 this debat

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    McHale a worse scorer than Timmy? After he revolutionized the ground game? Come on Jukai, Timmy is one of my favorite players, but he wasn’t/isn’t a better scorer than McHale. Not saying it’s clear-cut either, but you can’t be that decisive.

  • http://dsfjkldf.com Jukai

    JTaylor: Hey, just incase ya wanna know, I’ve e-mailed Ryne and asked him to look up the IP address of that guy, match him with the real poster, and temporarily ban him. So, you know, hope ya don’t disappear for a week.
    Also, Pip was the better defender, no doubt. But not in every single way over Jordan. You know, Kobe Bryant is a better scorer than Hakeem Olajuwon, but Hakeem is better in the post. Just cause yer a BETTER DEFENDER doesn’t mean you are better in every way.
    Once again, hope ya don’t disappear.

  • http://dsfjkldf.com Jukai

    Hammer: Not sure if that’s true, don’t know enough to argue it… but let’s just say the hang time or speed to get off that jump wasn’t anywhere near the same, k?
    Teddy: McHale was not a better scorer. I mean, McHale was never the first scoring option on any team he was on. Ever. Duncan was. That should say something.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    JtTaylor
    I don’t believe I ever said Jordan was better. I just don’t think it was a big gap. If it was a rating system, Pippen would be a 99 and Jordan would like a 93-95, in his prime.
    But, on offense, Jordan is a 99 and pippen was a like a 85-88. Solid scorer, but nowhere near the unstoppable force that Jordan once was.
    So, Pippen can’t be the best all around player, right?
    As for Bird and Duncan. Bird was a great four, but he was among the first hybrid players. He wasn’t a dominant, post player like Duncan, and those types of players always have more value in my opinion.
    I can’t with good conscience say that Bird doesn’t get enough credit because he’s white. What’s that based on? You have Rodman mouthing off and you have Spike Lee saying that Bird was overrated. Other than that, who really questions his place as one of hte top five greatest players of all-time? Seriously, how often does that come up? For everybody who say he’s overrated, I’ve probably seen three people who have anointed him as the Second Coming despite the fact that he only had one more ring than Isiah, with better talent, and had an injury shortened career.
    Come on, I think y’all are reaching.

  • bozo

    I was listening to Dan Patrick one night, and he was ruminating on whether or not he could score on Larry.

    He then called Larry to ask him personally, and Larry’s response was ‘of course you could. i don’t play defense’.

  • hammer

    The vertical leap is tru jukai. I’m pretty sure u can look it up. Also pip was 1 of the quickest cats 2 jump. Pip had springs 4 legs. And if u n fact did c pip play u would know that is a fact. Mj had more hang time,but who ever had more hang time than mj n the L? No1 did

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Jukai, that’s a good point. But check McHale’s best statistical season out, it’s pretty ridiculous… 26.1 ppg in 77 games on 60.4% (!) shooting from the floor (highest in the league) and 83.6% (!) shooting from the line. He also had 9.9 rpg that season being surrounded by two great rebounders in Larry Bird and especially Robert Parrish, who averaged over 9 boards and 10 boards a game, respectively.
    Duncan’s highest scoring output for a season is a little over 23 ppg. BUT, he does elevate his game in the postseason and goes nuts offensively an defensively.
    Still, I wouldn’t say Duncan is the better scorer.

  • http://Www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    Did anyone else in the modern era win MVP three years in a row?

  • onlyclipsfanonslam

    @allenp race is always brought up when it comes to bird. Look at the third sentence in the intro up top. Check the demographics of SLAM. Most younger NBA fans don’t know much about Larry Legend, but they do know one thing…he is white. The fact that his race is brought up cheapens how great he was. Many people do think he is overrated because he is white, but IMO that just makes him that much more underrated.

  • Brian

    @ Jukai, McHale was one of the most dominant low post scorers in the history of the L. That has never been said of Duncan (who I am not dismissing either).
    He scored 26 ppg while shooting 60% one year without being the 1st scoring option (whatever that means).
    @Allenp – Bird was a 3.

  • http://www.dontevenreply.com total scrotal implosion

    Mchale was a really good low post scorer, maybe better than timmy. But im sure most of those points came in one on one situations. Mchale was not be double teamed all game like timmy has been his whole career. No one was leaving bird or other shooters, or parrish to double on mchale. Teddy, I havent checked, but u sure timmys highest was 23ppg??? And myles, steve nash almost did, hahahhhaahaa

  • http://thephotoriot.com davidR

    onlyclipsfan,
    i’ve seen enough and hear enough of how physically ungifted larry is. sure, he has a lot of heart and hustle, but athletic he is not. rebounds are about positioning and hustle, not athleticism (see dwight howard and kevin love for instance). i just wanted to hear sides on why bird is a better defender than pippen, and vice versa.
    as for rebounds a defensive category, i dunno if i can agree with you on that. personally i see rebounds in its own category. but the two arent mutually exclusive.

  • http://dsfjkldf.com Jukai

    Brian: McHale is a better low post scorer. Duncan is a better shooter with greater range, he was better facing the basket, and honestly, better creating his own offense (Let’s not pretend some of McHale’s baskets didn’t come from Archibald, Bird, and DJ).
    What’s funny is, usually I’m arguing on how UNDERRATED McHale, so I’m shocked I’m having this debate, maybe even happy about it.
    But I’m an even bigger Duncan fan. And this is coming from a Phoenix Suns’ dude.

  • JTaylor21

    Damn @Jukai you telling like a school girl huh, you love to throw punches but when someone strikes back you get all sensitive and start crying foul. Anyways maybe you like people that AGREE with you on everything which seems like a lot of people on this site while a person like myself doesn’t just go with the crowd and foolishly agree on everything. I’ve always stated my opinion whether it’s unpopular or not, because I’ve seen a majority of the 80s/90s players play and my eyes haven’t fooled me yet unlike your; AHH let’s not go there before you soak up another maxi pad.

  • JTaylor21

    @AllenP regarding MJ maybe being the better all-around player, you made a GREAT point but I tend to give a guy who dominated the defensive end more props than one who did the same on the offensive end because to shut down and affect a game defensively is much harder than scoring. Also the reasons why pippen’s scoring numbers weren’t that great was because the bulls did not need him to carry the offensive load but when they did need in 94, he became only the 4th player to lead his team in ppg, rpg, apg, spg, and bpg, something that MJ never accomplished. That’s my argument, let me see how you counter that.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    No Brian, Bird was a four. He only switched to the three when it became clear that McHale was not going to be content coming off the bench, and the Celtics needed him on the floor mre. Check your history, Bird started his career at the four and played their for like the first four of five years he was in the league. He only switched for McHale.
    I don’t know who was the better scorer between McHale and Duncan. But I KNOW DAMN WELL WHO WAS BETTER ON DEFENSE AND REBOUNDING. That shouldn’t even be up for debate. And McHale was a freaking BLACK HOLE how is he going to be better at passing?
    Some of y’all are just reaching.
    Clipsfan
    Your logic is that because younger players don’t know that Bird was great, he’s underrated. Well that can be said about every player not named Michael Jordan. Of course they know Bird is white. You know why? Because a big freaking deal is made about him being white by mainstream sportswriters kissing his nuts for dominating a “black man’s game.” Don’t forget that Bird himself likes to make racial comments, draft white players and used to get pissed when “they put a white guy out there to guard me.”
    Just because every basketball fan doesn’t think Bird is the undisputed best small forward of all time does not mean he’s underrated because he’s white. It means people have a different opinion about him.
    What’s amazing is that cats can make this argument, but will deny to their graves that David Lee, or Steve Nash, or even freaking Jon Brockman get special treatment because they’re white. Nope, that’s just becaue of their games and great personalities. Truly amazing.

  • onlyclipsfanonslam

    @davidR what represents a successful defensive stop? Steal, forced turnover, and you guessed it our friend the rebound. Furthermore, if you really want to get into discussing athleticism. Rebound rate is what is studied to see if a big is losing a step. Meaning if a big is losing a step they will get to less rebounds because there is less quickness and less spring in the big’s step. FWIW Bird has a better defensive rebound rate than Antonio McDyess, Shawn Marion, Shawn Kemp, Chris Webber, and even Cap. All this while sharing the floor with one of the best rebounders of all time in The Chief. To make things short, Bird’s athleticism is underrated, just like many other aspects of the man.

  • letsmotor

    larry bird’s the reason i doubt reggie miller when he calls lebron the best non-point guard passer ever.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    JTTaylor
    Pippen’s highest point total for a season was the year Mike sat when he put up 22. If you look at this stats, his best year as a rebounder was 8 boards a game, and or assist it was six.
    Contrast that to what Jordan did when he put up 37 a game, with 6 boards and 6 assists. Better yet, look at what Jordan did a few years later when he scored 33, with 8 boards and 8 assist, along with 3 steals.
    Scottie was the better defender than Jordan by a hair, not by a gulf. Pippen can’t even get into the same conversation with JOrdan as a scorer, or even team leader and competitior. Scottie was a superstar, but Jordan was on another level.
    Yes, dominating on defense is tough, but BOTH Jordan and Scottie dominated on defense. Scottie just dominated a little more. You can’t act like Jordan was average on defense, he was a basically the best defensive guard in the league for most of his time in the league before his first retirement. He slowed down some after that, as did Pippen, but he was still solid.
    Hell, the Utah Jazz allowed Jeff Hornacek to guard Scottie Pippen. That right there is proof that he was nowhere near the discussion of Jordan as an offensive player, and that sort of gap means he couldn’t have been better than Jordan as an all-around player.
    Your turn.

  • Brian

    @Allenp – Cedric Maxwell played the 4 for the Celtics prior to McHale.
    McHale was a much, much better defender than Duncan. Ask Barkley.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    How does Robert Parish get in the discussion for best rebounder of all-time?
    Based on what?
    Not his stats, that’s for sure.

  • onlyclipsfanonslam

    @allenp you are the one making a big deal about race. If it wasn’t a fact that people THINK Bird is overrated because he is white, then there wouldn’t be a problem. But, in reality there are plenty that do, and many are the younger NBA fans, and many that fit the SLAM demographic (hence it being brought up in the third sentence of the intro. Slam writers know who their audience is). FWIW Steve Nash and David Lee DO get special treatment, but it doesnt change the fact that they are very good players. Did Bird get special treatment from the media when he was ballin? Yes. Do people think less of his abilities now because they feel he got special treatment from the media? Yes.

  • http://www.dontevenreply.com total scrotal implosion

    Allenp, I was going to make that point in the brockman burger thread but was distracted by the insane food. Steves mvps are an obvious point here. So are brockman and lou amundson being ‘fan favorites’ aka whiteboys who the wealthy white ticket buyers love because of their skin color despite lack of talent other than hustle. Scalabrine too. It sickens me when dudes like that check into a game and crowd gets overly excited and cheers loudly like lebron is coming in(miami). It is blatant race favoritism and must piss off all the black players.

  • onlyclipsfanonslam

    @allenp Parrish is one of the best rebounders of all time. In fact he has a better career rebound rate than the likes of Hakeem, Shaq, Admiral, Patrick Chewing, ZO, Mailman, and Cap.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    So, now I’m the one making a big deal. Let me refresh your memory.
    At 1:19 you posited that people hate on Bird’s career because he is white. At that point, NOBODY had hated on his game. The only negative comment was from JTTaylor which was a legit argument that Bird’s defensive weaknesses hamper his case for being the best. Whether you agree or not, I think he made a legit point.
    You were the one who was offended by the mention of Bird’s race. You were the one who decided he wasn’t getting enough credit because he was white. You have offered no proof of this, simply saying that because people point out his race, that means that’s why they are criticizing him.
    In fact, you’ve indicted SLAM readers, but throughout this comment section the vast majority of people have been singing Bird’s praises.
    So, no, I didn’t introduce race, I didn’t make race a big deal and I didn’t impune Bird’s game because of his race.
    What I did was kick your butt in a logical discussion and you’ve now resorted to making stuff up.
    Feels familiar.

  • http://www.dontevenreply.com total scrotal implosion

    BRIAN SHOULD BE BANNED FOR LIFE FOR SAYING MCHALE WAS A MUCH, MUCH BETTER DEFENDER THAN TIMMY. PEOPLE HAVE SAID MANY DUMB THINGS ON THIS SITE, LOTS IN THIS POST BUT WOW!!!!! YOU SHOULD STOP COMING HERE, STOP WATCHING BASKETBALL AT ALL AND GO PLAY CHECKERS OR SOMEETHING. IM STILL AGHAST AT THIS.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I’m out of the loop on rebound rate. Is that a stat based on how many rebounds you get per minutes on the floor or something? Because I’m looking at his averages, and he doens’t make the cut.
    Besides, the best rebounders of all time are named Chamberlain, Russell and Rodman. Is he in that league?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Brian
    I’m not where you info is coming from on McHale and defense.
    Moreover, if Cedric Maxwell was playing power forward, then his 6-8 rebounds per game was pretty abysmal.
    Nope, I’m sticking with Bird playing the four, which kept McHale on the bench. And I’m sticking with all the informationt hat Bird used to yell at McHale for slacking on defense and not passing.

  • onlyclipsfanonslam

    What are you talking about, check the third sentence in the intro. It was brought up, not by me but the author. People say he was unathletic and I said otherwise, people said he was a bad defender and I said otherwise. My point is that people had these misconceptions of Bird because he was white. It goes with the fact that people talk down about his game because he is white. I said that just makes him underrated. You are the one making the big deal out of it. I never said you introduced it. Now you are just putting words in my mouth. You probably aren’t understanding me and getting things twisted. Saying something like he is the best white boy of all time (check the intro) undermines how great he was. Race was introduced from the get-go don’t get it twisted young buck.

  • JTaylor21

    @AllenP, great points all around but I never said that MJ was an average defender. All I said was that I will take Pip over him any day and that he was the better defender during the bulls 90s run. Of course MJ’s the better offensive player by a good margin but Pippen was the better playmaker and rebounder as evidenced by PJax placing the majority of the ball-handling and play-making duties in Pippen hands. Also Pip was more versatile on the defensive end where he could guard a PG on one play then guard a PF on the next, MJ with all his defensive skills just didn’t posses the size and strength to be able to guard post players. Pips versatility has to be an added bonus and adds to my argument for him being the best all-around player.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    McHale made all-defense six times, so he could defend.
    Duncan has made all-defense 13 times. He’s better.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Brian
    I actually looked into it, and you may be right about Maxwell, although I’ve read different things at different sites. Since I’m not old enough to have first hand knowledge, I really can’t say. I know Bird spent a lot of time on the block and the Celtics often ran their offense through him there when he was in the game, but he could have just been the small forward. Thank you for your information.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    JTTaylor
    You’re missing my biggest point.
    If Jordan and Pippen are close on defense, with Pippen have a small edge, but are not even close on offense, than Pippen can’t be the better all-around player, no matter how much you weight defense.
    If you weight defense, than Mike is getting almost as much of a boost as Pippen.
    As for Pippen being the better playmaker, I don’t think so. I think Kobe is the best playmaker on the Lakers team, but that doesn’t mean Phil wants him playing the point. Instead, he wants Kobe doing what he does best, and that’s scoring. Phil had Scottie running hte offense because he was a perfect fit for the triangle, and it allowed Jordan to concentrate solely on scoring. And, despite concentrating so much on scoring, Jordan still managed to average five or more assists every year of his career.
    Jordan was much better on offense, almost equal on defense,and more clutch and tougher. Jordan was the better all-around player.

  • JTaylor21

    @TSI, that’s FUNNY. TD’s defensive skills and accomplishments would sh*t on McHales the same way Pip’s defense would defecate on Birds. TD is the greatest defensive PF of all-time and it’s not even CLOSE as evidenced by him being on the All-D team the MOST times in history and being the ONLY player to be on the team every year in his career. When you put that in perspective, it really speaks to his UNPARALLELED and UNMATCHED defensive dominance.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Clips fan
    The intro said he’s arguably the greatest forward ever, and definitely the best white player ever.
    You said that people were underrating Bird because he’s white.
    Those two things don’t match.
    How is saying Bird is possibly the best player and his position and definitely the best player of his race, underrating him?
    Newsflash, Bird doesn’t think he was athletic. Nobody who plays with him thinks he was athletic. Doesn’t mean he was a stiff, but he wasn’t athletic. Neither was Steve Smith or Reggie Miller, or Mark Jackson and people bring that up every time they watch their highlights.
    Saying Bird wasn’t athletic is just stating the truth. Making he was better than folks think, which I agree with, but that doesn’t mean he was “athletic.”
    Finally, you accused me of making a big deal about race because I disagreed with you, nothing more. How is refuting what you say making a big deal of something?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    excuse the typos.

  • Brian

    Who is the player that Duncan owns as a defender? I’m not knocking Duncan, but McHale covered 2′s-4′s. He covered Andrew Toney, Jordan, James Worthy and Dominique Wilkens. He made Barkley look like he had MS they played and he would have made more All-D teams if he wasn’t a 6th man and didn’t break his foot.
    I believe Bird replace John Havlicek in the starting lineup.

  • Brian

    @ Allenp, no worries. You had me starting to doubt myself and I grew up in BOS. I guess that is one good thing about being old. Now if you’d only come around on McHale :)

  • JTaylor21

    Though I may not agree with everything you said, I will agree to disagree. I will say that are you just going to act like you didn’t remember when I said that Pip was only the 4th player in history to lead his team in the five major categories (94). If MJ was the better all-around player then when didn’t he accomplish that feat when he was the only offensive and defensive threat for the bulls in the mid 80s. Also you’re telling me that the only reason PJax used Pip as the primary ballhandler was because he was a perfect fit for the triangle, that makes no sense. 90s pippen especially would’ve been GREAT in any offense based on his smarts, skills, and athletic ability. It’s like saying that the reason why Bron did everything for the cavs is because of the offense Mr. Potato Head ran was perfect for him. We all know that Bron would be just as great even BETTER if he didn’t play in that offense same goes with Pippen.

  • onlyclipsfanonslam

    @allenp see you completely missed my point. I’ve already said it 3-4 times; People think Bird is overrated because he is white. That IMO makes him underrated because people don’t truly appreciate how great he is. You don’t hear people saying that MJ is overrated because he was so damn athletically dominant do you? No, because that would undermine how great he actually is.

  • http://dsfjkldf.com Jukai

    @JTaylor21: Yeah, it’s all fun and games but when you have no argument skills so that you have to post AS me to get cheap punches in, it no longer is fun. It gets tedius. It’s crap like this that causes great posters like TAD, Izzo, and Tariq to no longer post here. And it’s aggravating.
    So yeah, probably gonna ask to temp ban for that. Come back, make a solid argument and that wont happen again.
    @Allenp: Bird mostly played the three. He started at the four for half of his career, but would be switched to the three whenever Maxwell or McHale were in the game. So, when he started out, he played the four half the time… and when he ended his career, he played the four zero percent of the time. I think that makes Bird a three. A three who could easily dominate the four, but a three none-the-less.
    onlyclipsfanonslam: Uh, Parish was actually a pretty bad rebounder for his size. 10 a game at 7’1? Eh…
    ANd what’s this about career rebounds?
    onlyclipsfanonslam: Uh… Better career rebound rate?
    Parish = 9.1
    Hakeem 11.1
    Shaq = 11
    Robinson = 10.6
    Ewing = 9.8
    MAlone = 10.1
    Jabbar = 11.2
    So….. what you said made no sense
    Brian: Barkley said he had the hardest time scoring on McHale. Barkley didn’t play with Duncan. Barkley ONLY said he had the hardest time scoring on McHale. He never said McHale was a better defender than Duncan. Even though ALlenp underrates McHale as a defender, there’s no way McHale is better than Duncan. Duncan is one of the best defenders of all time.

  • http://dsfjkldf.com Jukai

    Also, I get the argument Allenp is trying to make, I just don’t like how Allen is saying “The media overhypes Bird, they gave him a 24 hour special when he turned 50!!!!” whlie also saying “If people don’t think Bird is the best small forward of all time, they have an opinion.”
    Couldn’t the same be said that the media has an opinion of Bird which doesn’t have to do with race? Obviously that’s not true, but I don’t like how one can say that if they don’t think Bird is great, it’s CERTAINLY not because of his color.

  • onlyclipsfanonslam

    @ jukai you are not looking at rebound rate there, you are looking at average. I guess no one knows about advanced basketball statistics here

  • onlyclipsfanonslam

    @jukai again, but many people think he is overrated BECAUSE of his race. You are getting the argument twisted as well.

  • http://dsfjkldf.com Jukai

    onlyclipsfanonslam: Explain to me what rebounding rate is. Is it rebounds per minutes in the game or percent of team rebounds or something entirely different? I’ve never heard the term before and I frequent stat crap like NBA-Reference a lot for my arguments.
    And I think you misunderstood me on the Bird thing. I do think many people believe Bird is overrated because of his race. What’s yer point?

  • JTaylor21

    @Jukai, I’ve NEVER EVER used your name and posted as you, so I don’t know where you got that false accusation from. Though we go back and forth on the ish talking, I’ve never stooped that low and tried to slander you by commenting under your name. Ask TSI, it’s happened to him a couple of times when someone comments using his name so don’t act you’re the only victim and that I’m the perpetrator. You may go ahead and try to get me banned but like the Great Jonnie Cochran said; It doesn’t fit, so you MUST acquit.

  • onlyclipsfanonslam

    @jukai got ya on the race thing…as for rebound rate it is the percentage of rebounds a player gets that is available to his team while on the floor. Say Shaq plays 30 minutes, and in those 30 minutes there are 100 total rebounds that his team gets(i know impossible but to make it easy bear with me). If Shaq grabs 20 of those rebounds he has a rebound rate of 20%. Or in definition it is the percentage of available rebounds a player gets for the time spent on the floor. An example in dumb terms: see that dude that gobbles all the boards when he is in the game, yea dude got a great rebound rate.

  • http://dsfjkldf.com Jukai

    onlyclipsfanonslam: Yer talking defense rebound percentage then, yes? You could have just said “look at the boards he got per minute” and it woulda been fine.
    I guess one could argue that Parishs’ offensive abilities were not up to snuff so it kept him off the floor, and if he was on the floor more, he could have gotten more rebounds.

  • The Philosopher

    Vertical leaps:
    Michael Jordan: 42″
    Earvin Johnson: 28″
    Larry Bird: 22″
    Anthony Webb: 42″
    Vince Carter: 43″
    Nate Robinson: 43.5″
    __________________________________________________
    Just for kicks and giggles.

  • http://www.dontevenreply.com total scrotal implosion

    Bird was a great player, but he has been idolized and glorified. Its part of the whole ‘those were the days-glorifying the past-it aint what it used to be-itll never be the same’ ish so many people like to say about sports, and life. No sh#t itll never be the same. Time moves FORWARD. The media and people looking back with rosy glasses has somewhat overrated bird.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    JtTaylor
    I chalked that up to the trade of Horace Grant who averaged 15 and 11 with 1.2 blocks, which would have prevented Scottie from doing that. Seems like Scottie just had some bum teammates since he only averaged 8.7 boards and 6 assist, both numbers that a credible power forward and point guard should have been able to get, respectively.

  • larrylegend

    da man!

  • http://dsfjkldf.com Jukai

    The Philosopher: it’s hard to find good vertical leaps for older players. I found that Larry Bird had a 28′ vert, Michael Jordan had a 48′ vert, Magic Johnson had a 30…. and that was just one site. I bet I could find another that says things totally different from yours and mine.
    The draft combine makes things easier, but those stats are still skewed all the time.

  • http://www.dontevenreply.com total scrotal implosion

    Whats yaos vertical?

  • onlyclipsfanonslam

    @jukai rebound percentage suggests the percentage of total team rebounds. Rate is more specific with percentage of rebounds while on the floor. Small difference I know I’m nitpicking

  • MikeC.

    @ total scrotal implosion – I get your point about the ‘fan favourites’ thing, but I’ve heard crowds go ape-poop over black role players too. NY fans went bonkers when Renaldo Balkman checked in. Fans love superstars, but they also like players they can relate to. I can’t relate to Shaq because of his size, or Lebron and Kobe because of their freakish athleticism and overwhelming talent. Guys like Amundson and Balkman get me amped up because I am actually capable of doing the things they do. I can dive for loose balls, box a guy out so my teammate can grab a board, move the ball on O and rotate on D. The white boys do get a little extra ooomph in the cheers though. Personally, I always clapped when Scalabrine hopped up off the bench. Seeing a goofy dude who looks like he couldn’t even get picked at the YMCA running with KG and PP kept my hoop dreams alive.

  • onlyclipsfanonslam

    @Philosopher take those numbers with a grain of salt. The numbers before the combine were unofficial. They were never recorded and only reported by local newspaper writers. So you can see why many numbers will vary, and how a chicago writer might say Jordan had a 48″ vert. If you check DX, who lists all official measurements, you will see that most players don’t touch a 40″ vert.

  • MikeC.

    As for the “who would you pick, Duncan or Bird” debate that somehow spun into a debate about Duncan vs McHale, I’ll throw my two cents in too. If I were building an NBA team from scratch, knowing what we now know about Bird’s and Duncan’s careers, I’d take Duncan. Durability is key. It seems easier to build a team around a low-post player than a perimeter player. If I were picking one of them in their prime for one game or playoff run, I’d have to pick Bird. I asked my older cousin who is old enough to be a Celtics fan because of Bird, DJ and McHale, and he said “there is one thing you never do, and that is bet against the Celtics when they have a healthy and pissed off Bird.” As for Duncan vs McHale, I have to go with Duncan. More all-around skills including range. It’s proven that Duncan can be the alpha-dog of championship teams. McHale was a low-post beast, but never had to be the man. If it was time for clutch free throws though…

  • The Philosopher

    Onlyclipsfan:
    How do you know that those numbers aren’t correct?

  • JTaylor21

    @TSI, that’s the exact same ish I’ve been saying for years. People love to talk about how the 80/90s were so great and players back then were superior to any players from other eras. It’s gotten to the point that it actually overrates and over-hypes these players to unimaginable heights. They think that players today aren’t as good as players from years past, which is straight BS. If they don’t like the era they’re in, they should holla at Marty McFly to take their sorry a** back in time. @AllenP, you also have to take into consideration that the 90s esp. 94 played at a way SLOWER pace than the run and gun 80s. If you translate Pip’s 94 numbers into the same pace as the 80s it would be closer to Big O numbers. Just imagine a PRIME pip playing in a fast-break paradise league and the kind of things he would accomplish.

  • MikeC.

    @JTaylor – I’m not agreeing with your argument against AllenP, but I am intrigued by the idea of Pip in a fast-break setting. I’d like to see what Pip would have done playing on the 7 Seconds or Less Suns in place of Shaun Marion. With Pip’s unselfishness and slightly better deep-shooting, that may have been the difference between conference exits and true Finals contention.

  • JTaylor21

    @MikeC, I think about the same situation too. Pippen would automatically be a MAJOR upgrade over Marion and though it would be the BIGGEST undertaking in sports history improve their anemic defense, Uh never mind, I forgot about some guy named Steve Nash.

  • MikeC.

    @JTaylor – If Pip developed into a leader the way he did with the Bulls, he would have helped improve their overall team D. The Bulls had some atrocious individual defenders too, but Pip, Jordan and Rodman worked the team D so well, they could hide the weakest links. Pip wouldn’t have allowed Amare to slack, and therefore would have made it even easier to hide Nash’s individual deficiencies. Nash is a decent team-concept defender because he’s smart. He just can’t move his feet on D and gives up too much size against guys like Deron Williams.

  • MikeC.

    An even scarier thought would be Bird on those 7 Seconds or Less teams. He wouldn’t finish at the rim like Marion, but Bird finished breaks with back-breaking 3′s, and his passing would have made Amare into a legit MVP candidate. On O anyway.

  • http://dsfjkldf.com Jukai

    MikeC & JTaylor: Some people are made for a system. How do we know Pip wouldn’t be that much worse on a seven seconds or less offense?
    Look at Joe Johnson. Did that offense help him?
    I’m not saying Pippen wouldn’t have been straight MVP on that Suns team. I’m just saying it’s more difficult than just plugging a guy into a faster offense.

  • MikeC.

    @Jukai – I’m aware of the strengths of system players. I’ve seen Utah’s offense make guys look like solid players who completely fall off the map when they leave. This is just spitballing fantasy talk.

  • hammer

    Pip wouldve thrived under ths suns system or any system 4 that matter. He had a successful career w/chi and then later on n p-town,tho he was past his prime by then. N houston he wasn’t utilized 2 his capabilities. The rockets were just feeding the dream and sir charles n the post and pip was reduced 2 just another spot up shooter. And that wasn’t pips game @ all

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    I would take Larry Bird over Magic Johnson and Pippen in the suns system would be to easy for him to put up great numbers and be an MVP candidate every year. Pippen was very unique player with a great skill set, he never gets the credit he deserves. BOOK IT!!!

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    @ TSI: Yeah I’m sure Duncan’s highest is 23 ppg (probably some decimals). Checked it a few times today. Seems weird because he used to be able to score at will, but he elevates all of his stats during the postseason.

  • http://dsfjkldf.com Jukai

    Hammer part one:
    Pip wouldve thrived under ths suns system or any system 4 that matter.
    Hammer part two:
    N houston he wasn’t utilized 2 his capabilities
    LOVING IT!!!!

  • rich

    i hope no1 thinks jordan had a 48 inch vertical lmfao 42 sounds a little more realistic cuz if u think jordan got up 5 inches more that carter then uve been hanging out with micheal beasly waay too much this summer. not gettin into the whole whos a better dunker but in terms of leaping ability carter did windmills on ppl ( im from tdot so dont tell me otherwise) im much more interested to know how high lebron gets up because whenever he jumps i think his bones should shatter when he comes back down

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Question: Would you take Elvin Hayes over Tim Duncan in their primes?

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Sorry I was just watching Elvin Hayes’ mixes and d@mn was he good.

  • http://slamonline.com LAKERSLEGACY

    Basically Larry Is an overall better basketball player than Scottie Pippen if this was 2k or live Larry would be in the high 90s with Kobe Jordan and Magic while Pip would be in the high 80′s bcuz as good as Pip was he was the robbin to Jordan Batman and he was always a Star but never the Superstar like larry jordan magic n kobe ect. stars never get the praise as superstars or legends….

  • larrylegend

    for those who called “lb never played D”, they forget or can’t remeber the bos-lal finals, or are just too young. bird was always the first guy back on D after a miss and a rolling la fastbreak. duncan over bird….nah, i trust red(look up his draft story).
    best shooter of all time, sure. scary thing, bird broke his index finger badly playing baseball with his brothers, and doctors say, he will never move it proper again. he says, after that, he never shoot the ball so well again.
    last but not least, the erupting garden, boston fans didn’t went nuts for nuthing.

  • flimo

    Best ever.

  • ClydeSays

    As good as he was a shooter, his post moves are what get me. He just found a way to score when he was on the block.

  • http://dsjkfl.com Jukai

    Teddy: Hayes had a Garnett/Malone reputation of absolutely folding in the clutch, often settling for turnaround jumpers instead of easily taking it to the hole. He didn’t have the defensive skills of Garnett/Malone to make up for that. Definitely would not take him over Duncan. Hayes was great, top-5 or 6, but I don’t think he’s in the category of Duncan/Barkley/Garnett/Malone. Maybe someone older can prove me wrong.

  • The Philosopher

    Nah, you’re pretty much on point with this one.
    Hayes is a tad bit overrated. Just a little bit.
    The only thing he has on Duncan is athleticism.
    He could really run and jump.
    He was a gazelle.

  • The Philosopher

    Not saying I’m older than you.
    Not saying I’m not older than you.

  • http://www.dontevenreply.com total scrotal implosion

    Philosopher, not giving away anything

  • http://dsjkfl.com Jukai

    The Philosopher: He also had a pretty sick turnaround J. I remember that hitting with lots of consistency. It’s just, when you got a guy who is three inches shorter than you and yer down by two with a minute left, you probably want to punish the guy and not keep taking that turnaround.

  • The Philosopher

    Jukai:
    Agreed.
    In today’s game, he would need other moves to get off.
    But, you are correct.
    His turnaround jumper was a sight to behold.

  • JTaylor21

    How bout this; TD or Moses Malone? I know that Malone was mostly a center but TD also plays center sometimes and they’re both underrated in history. I’ll take Moses but it would be a difficult decision.

  • http://dsjkfl.com Jukai

    JTaylor21: I’d take Tim Duncan ten days of the week, but I’ve been told I highly underrated Malone. I didn’t live through the era of his dominance (late 70s, early 80s) so I can only judge from game tapes and video footage I’ve seen on Hardwood and Youtube… I dunno, he didn’t leave the impression on me that some people swear by. I don’t even know if he was as good as the Admiral.
    He sorta seemed like mini-Shaq with slightly better range but worse defense.
    So I dunno. Perhaps you should ask someone else.

  • http://dsjkfl.com Jukai

    Let’s keep playin’ this game: Moses Malone or Karl Malone? THAT’S a hard one to me, mostly cause I’m not sure how much Karl Malone was a product of Stockton (and vise versa). Face value says Karl, but Moses has proved himself as the key guy ALONE… can’t say the same for Karl.
    Toughie!

  • JTaylor21

    @Jukai good point on the TD/Moses point though I will take Moses because from what I’ve seen watching the 81 finals vs the Celts, 82/83 finals vs the Lakers and dude was the best post player in those series even better than KMchale and KJabar. Though people remember Dr.J the most out of those 76ers team, Malone was the BIGGEST reason for them going to finals twice and SWEPT the lakers in 83; only the 89 pistons can say that. On the MMalone or KMalone ?, I’ll also take Moses because unlike Karl, he upped his game and numbers to another level during the playoffs while Karl’s numbers took a slight dip.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Moses is the man. He waxed some Laker @ss during the fo’ fi’ fo’ run in Philly.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    BUT HE COULDN’T DO IT BY HIMSELF, HE HAD TO JOIN DR. J. WE CAN NEVER CONSIDER HIM ON THE SAME LEVEL AS TIM DUNCAN, HE HAD DR. J OH EM GEE.

  • http://dsjkfl.com Jukai

    In fairness, Phily obliterated the Lakers cause Worthy, McAdoo, and Nixon were all shelved for that series, but let’s not take anything away from Moses— he made Kareem his b!tch. I read once that Moses almost had as many offensive rebounds (27-28) than Kareem had total rebounds (30!).
    And yeah, behind-the-backboard shot excluded, that was really when Dr. J’s best times were behind him.
    If you want to see an absolutely explosive series, check out the 1977 Finals. It was prime Dr. J (30 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists) vs prime Bill Walton (18.5 points, 19 rebounds, 5 assists, 4 blocks!!!). That’s a series to marvel at supreme and semi-forgotten 70s talents.

  • JTaylor21

    Great points @Teddy and @Jukai, Moses pretty much was the better player in that series vs the GCOAT. Let’s keep it moving; Dr.J or Elgin Baylor? Also a difficult one because Dr.J won a ring and was the father of high flying acts but EBaylor was the great-grandfather of high-flyers, once put up 38/19 for a season, and still has the Finals record for points (61) with 22rbs at 6-5. I’ll go with EBaylor in a close one.

  • Brian

    How bout those Rockets Moses took to the Finals?
    Didn’t he win back to back and 3 out of 4 MVP’s also? I am not a Duncan hater, but I’m going with Moses.

  • http://dsjkfl.com Jukai

    @I’ll keep defending the CGOAT by saying the dude was 35 and past his prime while Malone was at the height of his prime at 27. Still, the one weakness in Kareem’s game was his man-to-man defense… when he was younger, he could make up his lack of strength and technical skills on D with his speed and leaping ability, just raw athleticism. When he got older, those things disappeared and well, he got his butt kicked. It happens, I guess.
    On the other subject, Dr. Julias Erving without question. Baylor predated Chamberlain, Russell and West— he’d probably kill it in this era just as well, but not at the tune of 38/19.
    Baylor was also known to not gel well with other stars: he’d either absolutely go off and hog the ball or disappear. Dr. J was more of a team player: had the athleticism and moves of Baylor but also had the passing and leadership. Truly quasi-similar players, but I’ve read a lot that Baylor was semi-me first and Dr. J was a real team guy.
    But, once again, I didn’t see any of these guys play. Dr. J may have been a real ball hogging D-Bag back in the day.

  • http://www.Sinnsofattraction.com Jon Sinn

    moses was a baaaaaaaad man. houston traded the mvp to philly where he instantly got a title. dummies.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    @ JTaylor, @Jukai: It’s tough to decide between Doc and Baylor. I think I’ll go with Baylor too because 38/19/4 (apg) is unbelievably insane, and the year before that he was getting 35/20/5… I mean, those are video game stats right there. But, it’s pretty sad he never won a title with JERRY WEST and WILT CHAMBERLAIN on his team–and then the year right after the Lakers go on a 33 game win streak AND beat the Knicks in a rematch for the title.
    Dr. J shot far better percentages and was no schmuck on the boards either–he was racking double-doubles in his prime as well. Passing is about the same I think. I DO know that Elgin Baylor rarely used his left hand, which seems to be a common thing when you look at older videos. Not sure about Doc–what was his left hand like?

  • MikeC.

    @ everyone that claims firsthand knowledge of eras-past. Where do you watch these games? YouTube has some games, but they’re all chopped up and hard to find in their entirety. Please post a link to where you watch games from tip to buzzer. I need something to carry me over until season 2010 tips off.

  • JTaylor21

    @Teddy, right on bra. For someone to put up 35/20 and 38/19 at 6-5 in any era is downright EVIL. I think that he’s game would transfer well in this era just like Oscar’s would because both guys were as big (225) as today’s SGs and just as skilled. I also feel the same way about Baylor retiring just as the Lakers were on their way to winning a chip and it’s a shame that he didn’t get one. @Teddy, I’m not a 100% sure on Dr.J’s left hand but from the games I’ve seen dude rarely finished with his left and his jumpshot was average at best.

  • Brian

    @ MikeC. – Mine are from my memory. You can try NBATV or ESPN Classic and sometimes get lucky. The 79 Finals are on NBATV now and a young DJ is a circus. You can also try lying which is what I think a lot of folks on here do.

  • JTaylor21

    @MikeC, I got you bra. This guy has a sh*tload of great 80s/90s games but keep it on the DL. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEuXYeRI25Q

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Agreed, JTaylor.

  • JTaylor21

    @MikeC- I don’t know whether you saw my earlier post but type in tjhunt76 on youtube. Dude has lots of old games but keep it on the hush.

  • http://dsjkfl.com Jukai

    MikeC: There actually are a lot of whole games on youtube, you just gotta know where to look. I also downloaded a torrent once of a BUNCH of 60s games. I’ve never actually watched whole games from the 50s though.
    Dr. J had a good left hand but his jumpshot sucked. I’m sure I’m gonna butcher this quote, but a reporter came up to Dr. J, after Dr. J had scored 30-something points, grabbed 12 boards, had seven assists, two steals, four blocks, won the game, did it all… except he missed every single jumpshot he took. The reporter asked Dr. J “why don’t you solely focus on getting a decent jumper?” to which Doc replied “cause I don’t have to.”
    Yep.
    I’ll still take the good doctor over Baylor. As I said, I’m looking at it from a team standpoint. Baylor never won anything with a stacked team that promptly won when he left. Hohum.

  • http://dsjkfl.com Jukai

    Other guys with great youtube videos: WiltAtKansas, DownsA530, VeoShock …. there’s a few more I’m forgetting, will gather them up.
    One guy disappeared with a BOATLOAD of Celtics games. I mean classic Cousy/Russell/Heinsohn/Jones games. It’s a real pity.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    WiltAtKansas is the f*cking man for NBA videos. Kind of crazy because I think I read him telling people how he’s 20-25 years old.

  • http://celticknightk3@aol.com Celtic Knight K3

    Bird VS Duncan??? Are you kidding me… Ok I have been watching NBA since 81′. The comparison between the two is incredibly ridiculas. Like few guys here do know some things about Bird and the rest of the people here have not seen Bird games on New England Sports channel are not qualified to compare. I have seen almost 82 games of Bird since 81′ I tell you all here Bird himself will tell you what he will do on the court and nobody can stop him for doing whatever he wishes to do. He and Magic Johnson totally owns NBA in their era. Ok PPG Bird:24.3 Duncan:21.1 Bird wins, RPG Bird:10.0 Duncan:11.6 Duncan wins, SPG Bird:1.7 Duncan:.8 Bird wins, BPG Bird:.8 Duncan:2.3 Duncan wins, APG Bird:6.3 Duncan:3.2 Bird wins, FG% Bird:49.6 Duncan:50.8 Duncan wins, FT% Bird:88.6 Duncan:68.7 Bird wins, 3-pt% Bird:37.6 Duncan:18.7 Bird wins. Well, stats shows Bird certainly have an edge. Stats are very shallow ok so how I have watched most of Duncan’s career and I tell you all young folks not only Bird’s is dominant in the low post(left handed shots too) is almost as good as his perimeter games. As far as court sense, passing, handles, leadership, and determination are clearly a huge edge for Bird. Bird had accomplished his feats in much shorter time than Duncan. Sorry folks but Bird clearly owns the forward spot in all-time history.

  • http://celticknightk3@aol.com Celtic Knight K3

    Bird VS Duncan??? Are you kidding me… Ok I have been watching NBA since 81′. The comparison between the two is incredibly ridiculas. Like few guys here do know some things about Bird and the rest of the people here have not seen Bird games on New England Sports channel are not qualified to compare. I have seen almost 82 games every year of Bird since 81′ I tell you all here Bird himself will tell you what he will do on the court and nobody can stop him for doing whatever he wishes to do. He and Magic Johnson totally owns NBA in their era. Ok PPG Bird:24.3 Duncan:21.1 Bird wins, RPG Bird:10.0 Duncan:11.6 Duncan wins, SPG Bird:1.7 Duncan:.8 Bird wins, BPG Bird:.8 Duncan:2.3 Duncan wins, APG Bird:6.3 Duncan:3.2 Bird wins, FG% Bird:49.6 Duncan:50.8 Duncan wins, FT% Bird:88.6 Duncan:68.7 Bird wins, 3-pt% Bird:37.6 Duncan:18.7 Bird wins. Well, stats shows Bird certainly have an edge. Stats are very shallow ok so now I have watched most of Duncan’s career and I tell you all young folks not only Bird’s is dominant in the low post(left handed shots too) is almost as good as his perimeter games. As far as court sense, passing, handles, leadership, and determination are clearly a huge edge for Bird. Bird had accomplished his feats in much shorter time than Duncan. Sorry folks but Bird clearly owns the forward spot in all-time history.

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