Best forward of all time? Certainly up for debate. Best white boy of all time? No question. Larry legend’s story is classic. Small town, country boy from the Mid West turned college superstar and NBA Legend. Coming from humble beginnings, he never craved the spotlight but found himself there more often than not because of his abilities. Bird was not blessed with speed or hops but he left it all on the floor, made plays in big spots, and had classic rivalries with NBA greats like Magic and MJ. He earned the MVP award 3 years in a row from ’84 – ’86, won 3 Titles (2x Finals MVP), was a 12x NBA All Star, 3x 3-point contest winner, plus a looooot more and to boot…he was the coach of the year with the Pacers in ’98. The man knows basketball. Ok a few more… he averaged over 30 pts/game @ Indiana State, led ISU to the ’79 Championship game against Earvin “Magic” Johnson and Michigan State (but lost), won the NBA ROY in 1980, was named one of the 50 greatest players of all time, and then inducted into the HOF. Bird was a phenomenal shooter, great passer, and a lot more physical than people give him credit for. After his 13-year career, this is what his average stats looked like: 24.3 pts, 10 rbs, 6.3 asts, 1.9 3pt. 1.7 stls. He pretty much did it all.
@Schneezy
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The only SF to ever win 3 straight MVP’s.
Also, that left handed bounce pass at the beginning by the point guard to Bird, when Bird reversed it, was a think of beauty.
Accepting his MVP’s in his bowling shirt, rigging his Bronco console into a cooler for his beer and answering “Yup, it’s going to the Larry Bird Fund” when asked if he was going to donate his 3pt award money to charity were all epic.
Can’t see AI getting away with that stuff.
Also, Bird vs. Tim Duncan.
Who was the better forward?
That shoudl result in an automatic banning from any future basketball discussions, seriously. The only player who gets more love and credit than Larry Bird in the history of the NBA is Michael Jordan. Seriously, there was a whole special dedicated to the fact that Larry Bird turned 50! What the hell?
What made Bird so valuable, and what got Bird his 3× NBA All-Defensive Second Team selections (something that was not mentioned above) was how he could grab steals without gambling too much, his helpside defense which was tremendous (perfect double teaming, great leading his defender into the bigmen on the team, never trailed too far from his man) and his shot blocking was underrated too- earlier in Bird’s career, pre-back injuries, Bird would play this game where if he knew a smaller defender was too fast for him, he’d let the guy blow past him then block the hell out of them from behind. Saw that twice in a game I watched from him, it was perfectly planned every time.
So while Magic certainly could be considered a ‘subpar’ defender, I think it’s ridiculous to consider Larry Bird a bad defender. He controlled his team’s defense, and made up for his iso shortcomings by playing incredibly efficient team defense, and wrecking the passing lanes.
And people do underrate Bird cause he’s white. He probably is the only player with this problem, in fairness.
Sure, as an iso defender, Pippen was well ahead of Jordan.
But Jordan could do things Pippen couldn’t— get more steals, block more shots, people were AFRAID to take shots with Jordan around cause Jordan could block them. Dude blocked Shaq from behind!
I mean, just great point.
Nah, I would take Tim Duncan every time.
Great post scorer, dominant rebounder, INSANE defender, underrated passer. Plus, look at his longevity and the small amount of decline in his game.
Now, Bird is more versatile and more clutch, but other than that, I don’t see any big advantage to having him on my team.
And, you and Jukai are both out of your gourds about Bird. In the mainstream world, Larry Bird is the Babe Ruth of basketball. Sure, maybe here on SLAM you get a few cats throwing stones, but in the overall world, he gets more love than everybody not named Jordan. AGain, the fact that he turned 40 was a cause for a freaking tv special! Who else gets that?
To attempt to answer Allenp’s question, Bird or Duncan, I would go with Bird.
You can place him anywhere on the floor, and he will prosper.
Duncan? Well…
Bird is among the most clutch and intelligent players of any era.
If one were to state that Bird is the best ever, they have an interesting argument.
He is almost the perfect basketball player.
Truly revolutionized the game.
Now many big guys can shoot and pass, and dribble, because of Earvin, and Larry Joe.
And, Bird CAN handle the ball like a guard.
Aside from a lifetime achievement MVP for Dr J. in ’81 the award was won by a center going back to 1964.
3 people have won 3 straight MVP’s in history, Russell, Wilt and Bird.
If you don’t take Bird over Tim Duncan (Bird played with a better PF on his team) then there is something wrong with you.
Sure, to the white douchebags who sit on the desk in Atlanta and shout out “BIRD NEVER F*$(ING LEAVE HIS TEAM LIKE LEBRON DID BIRD IS THE BEST COMPETITOR OF ALL TIME!” yeah, Bird is somehow conceivably overrated. But I do feel like Bird doesn’t get his due to a lot of the common NBA fan.
I’m really unsure about the Duncan. As I said, Bird is a way better scorer, a superior passer, and WAY more clutch.
Duncan, however, is still a big man. He has more value. So I dunno. I’d probably take Bird, but only 6 times out of 10.
Not sure if this applies to Bird, but at a certain point a player is considered overrated by so many that he suddenly becomes underrated. And vice versa.
Jordan also got more steals, but I’m sure you’ll fall back on excuse #34: gambling.
Brian is acting like Timmy D couldn’t cover that young Jordan.
Also, Pip was the better defender, no doubt. But not in every single way over Jordan. You know, Kobe Bryant is a better scorer than Hakeem Olajuwon, but Hakeem is better in the post. Just cause yer a BETTER DEFENDER doesn’t mean you are better in every way.
Once again, hope ya don’t disappear.
Teddy: McHale was not a better scorer. I mean, McHale was never the first scoring option on any team he was on. Ever. Duncan was. That should say something.
I don’t believe I ever said Jordan was better. I just don’t think it was a big gap. If it was a rating system, Pippen would be a 99 and Jordan would like a 93-95, in his prime.
But, on offense, Jordan is a 99 and pippen was a like a 85-88. Solid scorer, but nowhere near the unstoppable force that Jordan once was.
So, Pippen can’t be the best all around player, right?
As for Bird and Duncan. Bird was a great four, but he was among the first hybrid players. He wasn’t a dominant, post player like Duncan, and those types of players always have more value in my opinion.
I can’t with good conscience say that Bird doesn’t get enough credit because he’s white. What’s that based on? You have Rodman mouthing off and you have Spike Lee saying that Bird was overrated. Other than that, who really questions his place as one of hte top five greatest players of all-time? Seriously, how often does that come up? For everybody who say he’s overrated, I’ve probably seen three people who have anointed him as the Second Coming despite the fact that he only had one more ring than Isiah, with better talent, and had an injury shortened career.
Come on, I think y’all are reaching.
Duncan’s highest scoring output for a season is a little over 23 ppg. BUT, he does elevate his game in the postseason and goes nuts offensively an defensively.
Still, I wouldn’t say Duncan is the better scorer.
He scored 26 ppg while shooting 60% one year without being the 1st scoring option (whatever that means).
@Allenp – Bird was a 3.
i’ve seen enough and hear enough of how physically ungifted larry is. sure, he has a lot of heart and hustle, but athletic he is not. rebounds are about positioning and hustle, not athleticism (see dwight howard and kevin love for instance). i just wanted to hear sides on why bird is a better defender than pippen, and vice versa.
as for rebounds a defensive category, i dunno if i can agree with you on that. personally i see rebounds in its own category. but the two arent mutually exclusive.
What’s funny is, usually I’m arguing on how UNDERRATED McHale, so I’m shocked I’m having this debate, maybe even happy about it.
But I’m an even bigger Duncan fan. And this is coming from a Phoenix Suns’ dude.
I don’t know who was the better scorer between McHale and Duncan. But I KNOW DAMN WELL WHO WAS BETTER ON DEFENSE AND REBOUNDING. That shouldn’t even be up for debate. And McHale was a freaking BLACK HOLE how is he going to be better at passing?
Some of y’all are just reaching.
Clipsfan
Your logic is that because younger players don’t know that Bird was great, he’s underrated. Well that can be said about every player not named Michael Jordan. Of course they know Bird is white. You know why? Because a big freaking deal is made about him being white by mainstream sportswriters kissing his nuts for dominating a “black man’s game.” Don’t forget that Bird himself likes to make racial comments, draft white players and used to get pissed when “they put a white guy out there to guard me.”
Just because every basketball fan doesn’t think Bird is the undisputed best small forward of all time does not mean he’s underrated because he’s white. It means people have a different opinion about him.
What’s amazing is that cats can make this argument, but will deny to their graves that David Lee, or Steve Nash, or even freaking Jon Brockman get special treatment because they’re white. Nope, that’s just becaue of their games and great personalities. Truly amazing.
Pippen’s highest point total for a season was the year Mike sat when he put up 22. If you look at this stats, his best year as a rebounder was 8 boards a game, and or assist it was six.
Contrast that to what Jordan did when he put up 37 a game, with 6 boards and 6 assists. Better yet, look at what Jordan did a few years later when he scored 33, with 8 boards and 8 assist, along with 3 steals.
Scottie was the better defender than Jordan by a hair, not by a gulf. Pippen can’t even get into the same conversation with JOrdan as a scorer, or even team leader and competitior. Scottie was a superstar, but Jordan was on another level.
Yes, dominating on defense is tough, but BOTH Jordan and Scottie dominated on defense. Scottie just dominated a little more. You can’t act like Jordan was average on defense, he was a basically the best defensive guard in the league for most of his time in the league before his first retirement. He slowed down some after that, as did Pippen, but he was still solid.
Hell, the Utah Jazz allowed Jeff Hornacek to guard Scottie Pippen. That right there is proof that he was nowhere near the discussion of Jordan as an offensive player, and that sort of gap means he couldn’t have been better than Jordan as an all-around player.
Your turn.
McHale was a much, much better defender than Duncan. Ask Barkley.
Based on what?
Not his stats, that’s for sure.
At 1:19 you posited that people hate on Bird’s career because he is white. At that point, NOBODY had hated on his game. The only negative comment was from JTTaylor which was a legit argument that Bird’s defensive weaknesses hamper his case for being the best. Whether you agree or not, I think he made a legit point.
You were the one who was offended by the mention of Bird’s race. You were the one who decided he wasn’t getting enough credit because he was white. You have offered no proof of this, simply saying that because people point out his race, that means that’s why they are criticizing him.
In fact, you’ve indicted SLAM readers, but throughout this comment section the vast majority of people have been singing Bird’s praises.
So, no, I didn’t introduce race, I didn’t make race a big deal and I didn’t impune Bird’s game because of his race.
What I did was kick your butt in a logical discussion and you’ve now resorted to making stuff up.
Feels familiar.
Besides, the best rebounders of all time are named Chamberlain, Russell and Rodman. Is he in that league?
I’m not where you info is coming from on McHale and defense.
Moreover, if Cedric Maxwell was playing power forward, then his 6-8 rebounds per game was pretty abysmal.
Nope, I’m sticking with Bird playing the four, which kept McHale on the bench. And I’m sticking with all the informationt hat Bird used to yell at McHale for slacking on defense and not passing.
Duncan has made all-defense 13 times. He’s better.
I actually looked into it, and you may be right about Maxwell, although I’ve read different things at different sites. Since I’m not old enough to have first hand knowledge, I really can’t say. I know Bird spent a lot of time on the block and the Celtics often ran their offense through him there when he was in the game, but he could have just been the small forward. Thank you for your information.
You’re missing my biggest point.
If Jordan and Pippen are close on defense, with Pippen have a small edge, but are not even close on offense, than Pippen can’t be the better all-around player, no matter how much you weight defense.
If you weight defense, than Mike is getting almost as much of a boost as Pippen.
As for Pippen being the better playmaker, I don’t think so. I think Kobe is the best playmaker on the Lakers team, but that doesn’t mean Phil wants him playing the point. Instead, he wants Kobe doing what he does best, and that’s scoring. Phil had Scottie running hte offense because he was a perfect fit for the triangle, and it allowed Jordan to concentrate solely on scoring. And, despite concentrating so much on scoring, Jordan still managed to average five or more assists every year of his career.
Jordan was much better on offense, almost equal on defense,and more clutch and tougher. Jordan was the better all-around player.
The intro said he’s arguably the greatest forward ever, and definitely the best white player ever.
You said that people were underrating Bird because he’s white.
Those two things don’t match.
How is saying Bird is possibly the best player and his position and definitely the best player of his race, underrating him?
Newsflash, Bird doesn’t think he was athletic. Nobody who plays with him thinks he was athletic. Doesn’t mean he was a stiff, but he wasn’t athletic. Neither was Steve Smith or Reggie Miller, or Mark Jackson and people bring that up every time they watch their highlights.
Saying Bird wasn’t athletic is just stating the truth. Making he was better than folks think, which I agree with, but that doesn’t mean he was “athletic.”
Finally, you accused me of making a big deal about race because I disagreed with you, nothing more. How is refuting what you say making a big deal of something?
I believe Bird replace John Havlicek in the starting lineup.
So yeah, probably gonna ask to temp ban for that. Come back, make a solid argument and that wont happen again.
@Allenp: Bird mostly played the three. He started at the four for half of his career, but would be switched to the three whenever Maxwell or McHale were in the game. So, when he started out, he played the four half the time… and when he ended his career, he played the four zero percent of the time. I think that makes Bird a three. A three who could easily dominate the four, but a three none-the-less.
onlyclipsfanonslam: Uh, Parish was actually a pretty bad rebounder for his size. 10 a game at 7’1? Eh…
ANd what’s this about career rebounds?
onlyclipsfanonslam: Uh… Better career rebound rate?
Parish = 9.1
Hakeem 11.1
Shaq = 11
Robinson = 10.6
Ewing = 9.8
MAlone = 10.1
Jabbar = 11.2
So….. what you said made no sense
Brian: Barkley said he had the hardest time scoring on McHale. Barkley didn’t play with Duncan. Barkley ONLY said he had the hardest time scoring on McHale. He never said McHale was a better defender than Duncan. Even though ALlenp underrates McHale as a defender, there’s no way McHale is better than Duncan. Duncan is one of the best defenders of all time.
Couldn’t the same be said that the media has an opinion of Bird which doesn’t have to do with race? Obviously that’s not true, but I don’t like how one can say that if they don’t think Bird is great, it’s CERTAINLY not because of his color.
And I think you misunderstood me on the Bird thing. I do think many people believe Bird is overrated because of his race. What’s yer point?
I guess one could argue that Parishs’ offensive abilities were not up to snuff so it kept him off the floor, and if he was on the floor more, he could have gotten more rebounds.
Michael Jordan: 42″
Earvin Johnson: 28″
Larry Bird: 22″
Anthony Webb: 42″
Vince Carter: 43″
Nate Robinson: 43.5″
__________________________________________________
Just for kicks and giggles.
I chalked that up to the trade of Horace Grant who averaged 15 and 11 with 1.2 blocks, which would have prevented Scottie from doing that. Seems like Scottie just had some bum teammates since he only averaged 8.7 boards and 6 assist, both numbers that a credible power forward and point guard should have been able to get, respectively.
The draft combine makes things easier, but those stats are still skewed all the time.
How do you know that those numbers aren’t correct?
Look at Joe Johnson. Did that offense help him?
I’m not saying Pippen wouldn’t have been straight MVP on that Suns team. I’m just saying it’s more difficult than just plugging a guy into a faster offense.
Pip wouldve thrived under ths suns system or any system 4 that matter.
Hammer part two:
N houston he wasn’t utilized 2 his capabilities
LOVING IT!!!!
best shooter of all time, sure. scary thing, bird broke his index finger badly playing baseball with his brothers, and doctors say, he will never move it proper again. he says, after that, he never shoot the ball so well again.
last but not least, the erupting garden, boston fans didn’t went nuts for nuthing.
Hayes is a tad bit overrated. Just a little bit.
The only thing he has on Duncan is athleticism.
He could really run and jump.
He was a gazelle.
Not saying I’m not older than you.
Agreed.
In today’s game, he would need other moves to get off.
But, you are correct.
His turnaround jumper was a sight to behold.
He sorta seemed like mini-Shaq with slightly better range but worse defense.
So I dunno. Perhaps you should ask someone else.
Toughie!
And yeah, behind-the-backboard shot excluded, that was really when Dr. J’s best times were behind him.
If you want to see an absolutely explosive series, check out the 1977 Finals. It was prime Dr. J (30 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists) vs prime Bill Walton (18.5 points, 19 rebounds, 5 assists, 4 blocks!!!). That’s a series to marvel at supreme and semi-forgotten 70s talents.
Didn’t he win back to back and 3 out of 4 MVP’s also? I am not a Duncan hater, but I’m going with Moses.
On the other subject, Dr. Julias Erving without question. Baylor predated Chamberlain, Russell and West— he’d probably kill it in this era just as well, but not at the tune of 38/19.
Baylor was also known to not gel well with other stars: he’d either absolutely go off and hog the ball or disappear. Dr. J was more of a team player: had the athleticism and moves of Baylor but also had the passing and leadership. Truly quasi-similar players, but I’ve read a lot that Baylor was semi-me first and Dr. J was a real team guy.
But, once again, I didn’t see any of these guys play. Dr. J may have been a real ball hogging D-Bag back in the day.
Dr. J shot far better percentages and was no schmuck on the boards either–he was racking double-doubles in his prime as well. Passing is about the same I think. I DO know that Elgin Baylor rarely used his left hand, which seems to be a common thing when you look at older videos. Not sure about Doc–what was his left hand like?
Dr. J had a good left hand but his jumpshot sucked. I’m sure I’m gonna butcher this quote, but a reporter came up to Dr. J, after Dr. J had scored 30-something points, grabbed 12 boards, had seven assists, two steals, four blocks, won the game, did it all… except he missed every single jumpshot he took. The reporter asked Dr. J “why don’t you solely focus on getting a decent jumper?” to which Doc replied “cause I don’t have to.”
Yep.
I’ll still take the good doctor over Baylor. As I said, I’m looking at it from a team standpoint. Baylor never won anything with a stacked team that promptly won when he left. Hohum.
One guy disappeared with a BOATLOAD of Celtics games. I mean classic Cousy/Russell/Heinsohn/Jones games. It’s a real pity.
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