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Wednesday, September 8th, 2010 at 10:40 am  |  262 responses

For Old Time’s Sake: MJ Breaks Backboard

What a throwback. Ya’ll have probably seen this before but even so, I could watch it all day. YOUNG Mike getting up, same form he rocked in the league. This occurred on August 25, 1986 in a Nike exhibition game in Italy. MJ scored 30 points in the game and then went on to post these averages in the ’86-’87 NBA season:

37.1 PPG, 5.2 RPG. 4.6 APG, 2.88 SPG, 1.52 BPG

I guess he was okay. 37 points on any given night is pretty money but over 82 games… that’s just stupid. Do I dare say G.O.A.T?….YUP.

-Schneezy

For more old school videos, check out SLAMtv in the Media section.

Have an old school video you want to see in FOTS? Send the link to slamteam@harris-pub.com


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  • http://www.twitter.com/notebooknick NotebookNick

    Ish just EXPLODED.

  • hangtime Hec

    I expect intelligent and well thought out commentary about this video. But as it is a Michael Jordan tribute, I shouldn’t get my hopes up.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    I remember Kobe avg. 35ppg a few years back.

  • james

    haha is he wearing that gold chain? classic MJ

  • http://hurricane823@yahoo.com jusitn

    G.O.A.T

  • http://jaredmintzisthetruth.blogspot.com Jared

    if you couldn’t tell it was the 80′s the music does a good job of putting you in your place…gosh jordan was sick

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    The Greatest.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Cawford

    @ Kap

    Check Kobe’s defensive stats as well as FG % against MJ’s in 86-87, let me know if they compare.

    Also, 1.52 BPG from a guard is INSANE

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    It’s a little strange that his rockin’ the 1′s here too.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @ Bryan Crawford
    35.4 ppg 4.5 assists 5.3 rebs 1.84 steals .38 blks in ’05-06. The numbers are pretty similar except Jordan defensive numbers are ridiculous.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    He finished a distant third in MVP voting that year…smh

  • JC

    also shooting 48%+ from the field

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Dude shot 54% from the field in a season…that is just sick for a guard who is the opposing defenses’ top priority.

  • JTaylor21

    @Kap, BCraw is 10000% right. You’ve got to look at the shooting percentages when talking about great scorers when you do, you’ll see that guys like AI and Kobe don’t hold a candle to guys like MJ and Wilt. They are nothing but high volume scorers while MJ/Wilt are crazy efficient scorers. There are many players who can take 30-35 shots just to get 40-45 points but only a very select few only need 25 shoots to get the same amount of points. There’s a reason why MJ’s a career 50FG% shooter while kobe’s a 45FG%, one being that MJ always took smart shots and never forced shots while kobe doesn’t mind taking a shot with 3 players guarding him, the second being that MJ’s movement without the ball was legendary while Kobe’s has a tendency to stay stationary. The third being that MJ finished around the basket with ease even in his mid 30s while kobe has being struggling finishing around the rim for the past 2 years, MJ is just head and shoulders athletic better than Kobe. Kobe’s a great scorer but he can’t hold a candle to MJ and Wilt when it comes to scoring efficiently.

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    A glass facial. lol

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @ JTaylor…I’m not trying to say Kobe is better. I just wanted to put out how similar their stats were that season. Also look at the Lakers roster that year. It was horrible!!! Kobe has never given a damn about his efficiency so I’m not buying that as a reason MJ is better bc Kobe takes shots no one would ever take/make. You also can’t say Wilt is efficient when he was being defended against guys 6 inches shorter than him and the offensive 3 in the key was yet to become a rule.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    MJ 3pt % was 18% that season compared to 35% for Kobe for the yrs I was comparing.

  • JTaylor21

    With that being said, I still strongly stand by the stance that there’s is no G.O.A.T, never have and never will be. It’s just to hard to say who’s the BEST of all-time. Even MJ said the SAME thing. There isn’t ONE player who stood head and shoulders above other GREATS. People tend to believe everything the media say about MJ being the GOAT but I’m NOT buying it. I’m probably the only person in the world who thinks this way but I dare to be different. Also SHOUT OUTS to the Philosopher on his taught regarding the GOAT.

  • http://thosefishtacosarethetits.blogspot.com Boston_Blogg3r

    Kobe averaged 35ppg, but his defensive numbers were nowhere near what MJ put up that same year. What’s even crazier is that either the next year or two years after this season, MJ ran point for the Bulls and averaged over 8 assists. Didn’t MJ also average almost/just over 2 blocks a game the year he won Defensive Player of the year?

  • http://www.hibachi20.blogspot.com Hursty

    kap- you can argue that Jordans ’86/7 team wasnt that much better than Bryants in 05/6. Pippen wasnt around yet and I’m not sure Horace Grant was either.

  • JTaylor21

    @Kap I’m not attacking your comment, I’m just adding my two cents, your comments are on point. With regards to your comment about not agreeing with my point on why MJ’s a better scorer than kobe is that you HAVE to look at scorers who scorer EFFICENTLY with more respect and in a BETTER light than scorers who don’t. It is simple basketball logic that you give more PRAISE to the guy who scores SMARTLY and doesn’t just chuck up EVERY shot he sees.

  • http://www.hibachi20.blogspot.com Hursty

    mmm Jordan had Charles Oakley who averaged 14 and 13 and John Paxson at 11 and 6. Jordan led the team in blocks and steals too btw. And it wasnt close.
    Dave Corzine was the 4th best player on that team. He reminds me of the fat rebel pilot in star wars episode 4(the original). The guy who gets shot attacking the Death Star haha. I think he was either red or gold leader.. Ho hum.

  • JD

    I wonder if you guys will ever do a for Old time sake on MJ or you’ll just show every highlgiht of his cos theres enough to keep u goin for like 5 years if you showed one each day

  • ENDS

    @JTaylor. Co Sign. Im completely with you. Just cause he was marketed more and was around for the dawn of the internet (not to mention all these punk kids loved Space Jam which has to be the worst KIDS movie of all time) doesnt mean he was the single most Greatest. I still stand Magic, and Wilt have to be a tripple headed monster with MJ.

  • ENDS

    Eboy would sniff Mj’s poop if he let em.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @JTaylor21…I agree with you on your GOAT argument because its impossible to determine who is better especially in different eras. Look how many people disagree on the Lebron/Kobe debate. Its just a matter of what type of player/style someone prefers.

  • http://www.hibachi20.blogspot.com Hursty

    jtaylor- Wilt never met a shot he didnt like.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Funny…..only Kobe fandouches talk in terms of Michael being overrated in the Greatest Ever conversation. I won’t include jtaylor cause I don’t think dude was alive long enough to have seen it live and in person, so he’s not really playing on a level playing field.

  • The Philosopher

    Earvin is The G.O.A.T.
    The King is better than Kobe.
    Everyone already knows that, though.
    Anyways…
    LONG… LIVE… THE KING!
    Shout out @JTaylor21.

  • Robb

    MJ = G.O.A.T. end of story.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @Eboy…You gotta agree that alot of people think MJ shot 50% every game, made every game winner he attempted, and never had a bad game in the playoffs.

  • ENDS

    he most defenitly was not overrated like I thought as a kid, but whos to say the one and only.

  • ENDS

    @The Philosopher: YEAH! Just didnt want to come all out and say it cause you know how these Jordanieres are.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    This just makes me even more anxious to get my hands on NBA 2k11.

  • ENDS

    Kap most of these kids dont even remember seeing MJ play they were just around as their big brothers had the sneakers and maybe the last championship against Utah. If you in ur early 20′s now U were watching Power rangers and VR Troopers instead of watching mj. Dont act like y’all were there

  • Robb

    @The Philosopher Lebron is a better athlete yes, better player? hell no. At least not yet. Magic is great but a player who didn’t play defense can’t be the G.O.A.T.

  • ENDS

    Now back to the shattered backboard. that must have been a really flimssy rim. impressive dunk but it wasnt like a “SHAq Attaq” (google it young’ns)

  • The Philosopher

    Someone wise once told me that it is good for the soul to dream aloud.
    I say that to the people who dare to dream about how good Kobe is supposed to be.
    In Michael’s day, it was nearly unanimous who was the best.
    It is not unanimous with Kobe.
    It may have never been. (People thought Tracy was better)
    It has not been for a while.
    It will not be for even longer.
    So, dreamers, it is good to dream. It is healthy.
    Reality is stressful to a many a mortal.

  • JTaylor21

    @Eboy just because I wasn’t born in the GREAT depression doesn’t mean I don’t know what I’m talking about. You do know that there a ACTUAL game footage of many great players on the web for everyone to see. Trust me when I say that I’ve seen the 71 Lakers play, the 83 Sixers play, and most of the 96 Bulls games all on the World Wide Web. Even though I wasn’t born when Hitler was wreaking havoc, I do KNOW the history of the game.

  • bakers’ dozen (12-13)

    Kobe sucks compared to MJ.
    And I”ve never seen that clip before. WOW!

  • JTaylor21

    @Eboy just because I wasn’t born in the GREAT depression doesn’t mean I don’t know what I’m talking about. You do know that there a ACTUAL game footage of many great players on the web for everyone to see. Trust me when I say that I’ve seen the 71 Lakers play, the 83 Sixers play, and most of the 96 Bulls games all on the World Wide Web. Even though I wasn’t born when people STILL thought the world was flat, I do KNOW the history of the game.

  • Mr. Robinson

    ^^Damn.
    You showed your hand this time 4 reel.
    It may be a wrap for you.
    Eboy made you show your hand.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @Philosopher…alot of the not unanimously being called the best has to due with his aloof personality, allegedly snitching on Shaq and getting him traded, and the one off the court issue.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @Philosopher…You contradict yourself also bc Lebron has never been unanimously the best player either. You got people saying “he is the second best player on his team now” and “soon Kevin Durant will be the best”.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Jtaylor…..I wasn’t saying you don’t know anything about the game….HOWEVA, Michael in his prime was like riding the wave of Michael Jackson hysteria at the time of Thriller’s release (you’re too young to remember that too)or how cats lose their minds over ghey cats like your boy Drake you or anyone in your age group haven’t experienced that type of hype for a dude that (yes, I know he didn’t do everything right every time and didn’t win every game he played)almost always (and especially in it’s biggest moments-check his Finals record)never let down his team or his fans. Even when his weaker squad was being handled season after season by the Pistons, Mike was always fierce and never let his will be broken. He may have bled, but he never fled.

  • The Philosopher

    @Kap:
    Even before he tried to sell out AND humiliate Shaq while he was in trouble for… you know…
    Tracy was considered by many to be better than Kobe.
    And it was arguable.
    Being that The King is better than Kobe, Tracy and The King had a few similarities within their respective games.
    Now, to touch on your point about Kobe’s ‘aloofness’.
    Tim Duncan is aloof.
    He is universally loved by everyone.
    And he is one of the best ever.
    I don’t think your point holds in that respect.
    I could be wrong.

  • The Philosopher

    Kap:
    I’ve never said that it was unanimous with The King.
    I said that it… was FACT!
    Facts are not always unanimously accepted.
    You know.

  • JTaylor21

    @Eboy just because I wasn’t born in the GREAT depression doesn’t mean I don’t know what I’m talking about. You do know that there a ACTUAL game footage of many great players on the web for everyone to see. Trust me when I say that I’ve seen the 71 Lakers play, the 83 Sixers play, and most of the 96 Bulls games all on the World Wide Web. Even though I wasn’t born when people STILL thought the world was flat, I do KNOW the history of the game. Also I’m EVERYTHING but a kobe fan boy, so how can I be biased when talking about there being no GOAT, if anything I’m a fan of those other greats who deserve more respect.

  • rob stewart

    My ALL TIME Bulls championship roster (12 players):
    B.J Armstrong, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, Randy Brown, John Paxson, Ron Harper, Dennis Rodman, Bill Cartwright, Steve Kerr, Luc Longley.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @Philosopher:
    Kobe’s aloofness, cockiness, and eerie imitations of MJ has always caused others to look elsewhere for someone better than Kobe even though they may or may not be because people have just simply always hated the guy. I remember a few yrs back several people were saying Arenas was better than Kobe.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    For all those who said Jordan played with Pippen and a bunch of scrubs: You should look above @ Rob Stewarts post. The dude played with some accomplished players.

  • ai come back

    lol im lost here which side is jtalyor on and eboy and kap lol mj is greatest he was def. most marketed and def. amped up to be way more than he is but nobody did the things that he did i mean kobe averaging 35 ppg yea cool its SIMILAR but its not 3000 pts in one season eitehr lol kobe has 81 pt and 5 rings tahts it robert horry has 7 rings and ridiculous game winners nobodys gonna say horrys better

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @ AI come back…lol there isn’t much difference between 2830 and 3000 pts. You also make it seems as if 81 is nothing along with help leading a team to 5 rings.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    Kobe is actually near Jordan’s level on offensive output. Is 37.1 that far away from 35.1? If Kobe didn’t take all that heat for taking all those shots, Kobe may have gone above Jordan’s averages.
    I think the thing that REALLY separates Jordan from Kobe is the passing and the help defense, both qualities which Jordan has in spades over Kobe.
    Offensively, they’re pretty close. I’ve always said in a game of one on one, it’d be a pretty close game. A game of five on five would lean far more heavily towards Jordan.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    I also think Kobe is on the same level as MJ, Russell, Magic, Cap, and Bird. I could care less about the order because it all becomes objective after that.

  • http://stapledesign.com Spaceship Jay

    I have to co-sign Kap on that.. Even though I’m not a total Kobe fan myself, many people only go by his off the court antics and awkward personality; which is unfair, because he’s done so much on the court.

  • Mike

    I don’t think it was said but I didn’t exactly bother to read every response either. Could MJ have broken the backboard any more smoothly than that? I mean when Darryl Dawkins did it it was ridiculous and the whole rim went as well, but here he breaks it, misses every god damn piece of glass, showers opposing punk ass defenders, and calmly runs back down the court. Ex Girlfriends aren’t that cold!!! Money was far too smooth haha just seems like everything he did fell perfectly into place with style. Best believe they could have continued this game and Jordan would have been the only one able to put up decent numbers on the rim without the backboard!

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @Jukai…Kobe is a pretty underrated passer. Remember the behind the back pass to Gasol on the fastbreak in the Orlando series in Game 4? How many players could of made that pass? I’m also not buying the far heavily part when playing 5 on 5.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    By the way, if you guys can find it, watch the ENTIRE shots-made video of Jordan in this game. Jordan just took this opportunity to chuck up ridiculous shots, many which ridiculously went in

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    Kap: Kobe is a flashy passer, no doubt about that. I guess in terms of “PASSING” Kobe is great, cause if he sees someone, he can get it to them by body control and ball control.
    But his court vision is… below where it should be for a legendary top-10 player like Kobe. He doesn’t always see the open player, or make the right pass, and he can’t properly control the pace of a game like Jordan could do.
    Just my opinion, anyway. Kobe sees the basket. Jordan sees the basket but knows where everyone else is.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @Jukai
    I feel you on that assessment.

  • unrel

    breaking news… the GOAT debate is impossible..

  • BRAVO

    ITS THE 2010…..KOBE IS THE BEST EVER…..PERIOD!

  • http://stapledesign.com Spaceship Jay

    It’s the 2010, and Kobe is the best ever.

  • Overtime

    Can you spell hops? Ridicolous dunk. Hello Italy. And those defensive numbers by Jordan are beyond amazing, half the staring centers in the league cant average that many blocks.
    Also, I just want to make the point that some of us love BOTH MJ and Kobe

  • http://slamonline.com GotHandles?

    JORDAN = GOAT. just accept it.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Wow!!! There has been no bashing anyone for their opinion in an MJ/Kobe debate.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    Well, Eboy did, but ignoring that, yeah, this has been a fairly intelligent debate.

  • EJ

    The music is almost better than the dunk.

  • Overtime

    cosign EJ, the music is fantastic.
    @ Jukai, in reference to ur comment about Kobe’s court vision/awareness etc, I would argue against that, but fair to your opinion, after all, we can only really guess as to what he can and cannot see

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    No, I didn’t dips*it. But now I just did, Jukai so….

  • http://shinefluid@aol.com CHICAGO SAID IT YUP

    micahel jordan career aves =•Career Stats: 30.1 PPG, 5.3 APG, 6.2 RPG, 2.4 SPG, .497% FG, .835% FT, .327% 3PT
    Kobe bryant career stats =•Career Stats: 24.6 PPG, 4.5 APG, 5.2 RPG, 1.5 SPG, .453% FG, .838% FT, .337% 3PT
    cmon now the answer is obvious?? i think ppl just want something to talk about. oh and plus you have delusional 19 year old laker fans

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    ^ See, if there were more people like this guy, the internets wouldn’t be so bad.

  • unrel

    not adding to the debate.. but.. you have to love the rise of kobe.. came in as a kid.. came off the bench.. started.. co-led a team that won a few chips.. led his own squad to a few more chips.. and is now considered one of the GOATs… i’m sure we all put ourselves in that underdog role when we were kids in the 80s/90s..

  • Overtime

    @ Unrel, absolutely. I really think Kobe has been on more of a journey than anyone in the NBA. The hype as a rookie but still having to fight for that starting spot, climbing the championship mountain, going to the basement, climbing all the way back up the mountain. And all with the same team, even better

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    …………………

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @ Chicago SAID IT YUP…The fact Jordan came into the league a starter and Kobe spent his first two yrs on the bench makes your post somewhat distorted. Has anyone ever tried to do the avgs of Kobe after his first two yrs?

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @Chicago SAID IT Yup

    As a starter Kobes career avgs are 28 PPG so it’s no as obvious as you think. Jordan also didn’t play with a guy like Shaq. Therefore, If kobe was the main man his entire career then I could of been much higher than 28. So do more research before you come on here putting up stats that are obviously flawed since the two came into the league into two different situations.

  • Overtime

    Kap,
    Read the comment, he said he’s not trying to add to the debate. Its not comparing MJ to Kobe, we’re just commenting on Kobe’s journey

  • http://www.slamonline.com peter

    Why is everyone talking about Jordan vs. Kobe when we just saw a video of MJ taking off from damn near the freethrow line and breaking the backboard with a leaner. That dunk is ridiculous. p.s. people who say MJ had a high % cause he never took bad shots have never watched MJ play.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @overtime… I was only referring to the Chicago guy not anyone else.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Michael took bad shots early in his career…..once his athleticism waned some in the return from his first retirement, his shot selection greatly improved a)due to familiarity and confidence in Scottie’s game and b)because he knew he couldn’t just outquick guys like he once did. He was smart enough to know that forcing shots were his and his teams undoing. Part of that came with aging, part came due to his high basketball IQ. Kobe still struggles with that part of the game at 32 and the fact that he is no longer the athletic freak HE ONCE WAS. He throws up horrible shots every game even though he has a dominant post presence, a post presence Michael NEVER had. Kobe has now had two in his “heartbreaking” rise from cocky bench contributor to cocky superstar. It’s another area of their two games that are not equal to each other. Michael was almost near-perfect in his shot selection in his last couple of seasons. That is why his FG percentage numbers read so well today.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Michael took bad shots early in his career…..once his athleticism waned some in the return from his first retirement, his shot selection greatly improved a)due to familiarity and confidence in Scottie’s game and b)because he knew he couldn’t just outquick guys like he once did. He was smart enough to know that forcing shots were his and his teams undoing. Part of that came with aging, part came due to his high basketball IQ. Kobe still struggles with that part of the game at 32 and the fact that he is no longer the athletic freak HE ONCE WAS. He throws up horrible shots every game even though he has a dominant post presence, a post presence Michael NEVER had. Kobe has now had two in his “heartbreaking” rise from co*ky bench contributor to co*ky superstar. It’s another area of their two games that are not equal to each other. Michael was almost near-perfect in his shot selection in his last couple of seasons. That is why his FG percentage numbers read so well today.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @Eboy
    Kobe makes a majority of those crazy shots too. i.e Game 6 vs. Phoenix on Grant Hill. I honestly don’t think anyone can make half the crazy shots Kobe makes. I contribute them to his footwork which is probaly the best and even better than MJs.

  • http://stapledesign.com Spaceship Jay

    Actually, watch the 10 minute clip from the Hoops Encyclopedia called The Artistry of Michael Jordan… The illest thing in the world is watching Mike do throw up “stupid shots” over and over again, against team after team… Proving that all of that foolery he used to do was actually his real game, not just highlight clips.. Sickening.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Eboy
    Actually, Jordan’s shooting percentage dropped steadily as he aged as he relied more on jumpers to get points instead of wild forays to the rim.
    He had many 8 for 32 nights after he came back from retirment, and if you look at his career stats, you can see the drop off in field goal percentage in his last two years, although they are NOTHING when compared to some of the percentages Kobe has thrown up.
    Jordan did take better shots than Kobe and he had a better post game than Kobe. While Jordan still switched into alpha dog role and jacked shots, he was so much better at getting to the line that his bad shots did not seem to have the same impact on the Bulls as Kobe’s have on the Lakers.
    HOnestly, I’m tired of talking about Kobe and Jordan. People have made up their minds, we should move on.

  • http://shaq_attaq@msn.com kobesBESTfriend

    who cares who’s GOAT???Kobe is the best playing right!!!besides its a team game…I’d take Mamba and Pau(or Shaq) over Mike and Scottie any day!!!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Allen, just to belay the point…..Michael’s percentages dropped slightly….let’s not let the 12 year olds think his percentages dropped by 5 points.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @Eboy…they did drop by 5 points. His last season with Chi he shot 46%

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I’m talking about in one season….not over a 12 year period.

  • http://www.rich-imaging.com Dutch Rich

    If you look up total domination there should be a picture of Mike.
    This man had fire in his eyes. You couldn’t stop him, your team couldn’t stop him, your entire city couldn’t stop him. He never let down like E said. Every single Bulls game was must watch tv. No one comes close to the impact he’s had on the game. Remember Lebron in his rookie campaign who would struggle alongside Ricky Buckets for the Alpha male role. Ask Orlando Woolridge if that was the case with Mike. Thanks for the footage, I truly thought I had seen all his remarkable stuff. Thank God for Internet and young-uns consider yourselves very blessed.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    Eboy’s point is taken a little overboard, but his point about shot selection over aging is actually right on par

  • http://www.dontevenreply.com total scrotal implosion

    Funny how kobe lovers will say dumb things like , kobe makes a majority of those crazy shots. Really? A majority? Wrong. He makes a majority of the crazy shots they show in highlights. Cuz those are highlights. But to say he makes a majority is dumb. Kobe had one season of 35 ppg. Hes been in the league since 96, so any argument about career avgs is moot. Kobe has one mvp and two finals mvp, possibly not deserving recent one. Tony parker outperformed timmy in 07, pau outperformed kobe in 10. Yes, of course kobe contributed to 00-02, but bulls were mikes, celts larrys, la magics, that 3peat is shaqs, give the man the credit he earned. Kobe is a great player, no doubt. But not very close to mike. Kobe has been one of the luckiest superstars ever. Very lucky in 02(lots of zebra help), 09 (matchup cuz kg was hurt, and courtney lee blowing that layup to even the series), 10(horrible game 7, teammates let him get those boards, like brons teammates used to do, yet somehow gets the majority of the glory). Oh, cant forget great gift of pau gasol. All that not to say kobes not a great player, but his status as alltime great is inflated.

  • JTaylor21

    TSI is right about kobe being one of the luckiest superstars in league history because of the team he went to, the lakers. Imagine how many rings he would NOT have won had he stayed with the Hornets. His 5 rings is a beneficiary of playing for such a great organization like the Lakers where every single free agent would love to play for them. @AllenP is right about MJ’s field goal percentage going down as he got older but he was still shooting in the high 40percentile even in his mid-30s which is something Kobe has never done in his ENTIRE career. All I know is that MJ would WIPE the floor with Kobe if they both ever played in their primes. Kobe would get his on offense but would get SHREDDED to pieces trying to guard MJ.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    Sure, Kobe is INCREDIBLY lucky.
    Except Magic got to play with Kareem. And Worthy. And DPOY Cooper. And McAdoo.
    Except Bird got to play with McHale. And Parish. And Archibald. And DJ.
    And West got to play with Chamberlain and Baylor.
    And Kareem got to play with Magic AND Oscar.
    And Chamberlain got to play with Greer and West and Baylor and Cunningham.
    And Russell got to play with Cousy and Havlicek and Sam Jones and KC Jones and Heihnson and Nelson.
    Oh, and Shaq? He’s played with Penny and Kobe and Wade and Nash and Lebron. Shaq is the f’ing luckiest.

  • JTaylor21

    Jukai OF COURSE every superstar has to be LUCKY to get the right players around him to win a Chip, that’s all I’m saying. I’m not holding it against kobe that he has got to play with GREAT players, I’m just pointing out for those idiots who swear that he does it all by himself.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    MJ has benefited from the refs like no other superstar ever. I watched MJ growing up, but to act like he always did everything right on the floor is just plain stupid. FG percentage is just dumb to compare players, some care and some just don’t care. Thats why at the end of games or half time some players dribble the ball or take the long shot. I remember watching MJ and people around me saying just pass the darn ball, and stop jacking shots. MJ has some horrible percentages in big games, but they won. MJ was a ball hog and anybody acting like he wasn’t is fooling themselve. Every sport has a GOAT, and MJ is BBALL, Grezty is Hockey, Willie Mays is Baseball and Jerry Rice is Football and Pele is Soccer. So for those acting like MJ is not the GOAT is just plain stupid, because no can compare to MJ, and for those who think Magic is better are sadly mistaken. Wilt and Russell are not their either and please don’t bring up the Big O. MJ is the GOAT, until someone can affect the game both social and basketball/ring wise. MJ came along at the right time, with internet, media and basketball growing in America, plus he backed it up with Rings. BOOK IT!!!

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    Jerry Rice is the GOAT of football?
    Oh lord….

  • gpaul

    wow…. the conversation just turned dumb… lol it got dumbed wayyyy down just now. Kobe is lucky, Pau deserved finals mvp, Whoa man. it reads as if tsi is one of those people who is tired of boston vs la and didn’t really watch the finals. Pau f’n pulled a Criss Angel in boston, yea if he would have continued his dominance of Kg in boston he woud’ve deserved it, but c’mon man he damn near diverted back to 2008 Pau in three damn games in boston, showing he’s nothing more than an ULTRA role player, superstars take their game with them on the road. and kobe being lucky, see Jukai’s 4:38 comment.

  • http://stapledesign.com Spaceship Jay

    Co-sign gpaul on that.. Pau vanished against the Suns too.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Come on man, you know Jerry Rice is considered GOAT of football for having alot of major records like most touchdowns ever, most yards ever, most receiving yards ever, greatest wr ever, most touchdowns in Superbowl ever and receiving yards in Super Bowl and alot of other records my mind is forgetting and COSIGN JUKAI 4:38 COMMENT, I was about to write the same thing, people act like Kobe was the only player to play with great players and for some reason people act like Pau Gasol is the greatest center ever now, didn’t he never win a first round series in Memphis as the man for like 7 years. Kobe got Gasol looking good and Pau came thru on the road for the Lakers, but Artest was to me a bigger deal in the NBA finals than Gasol. BOOK IT!!

  • http://www.dontevenreply.com total scrotal implosion

    Jukai, it seems you missed my point. Of course it takes a great team to win a title, let alone multiple titles. My point is that kobe has had many lucky breaks along the way, moreso than other superstars. First off charlotte traded him for vlade, and shaq went to la same summer. Had he stayed in charlotte, he still would have developed into a superstar, but he wouldnt have had prime shaq, and probably wouldnt have had great teammates right away. Hes lucky phil came back after him and shaq left. Hes very lucky to get gasol for nothing. Although, that has more to do with jerry west, chris wallce, and stern wanting to boost lal than luck. Same with 02 wcf, tho lots of luck there too(re: horry).lucky kg got hurt, so faced not yet ready magic. Lucky perkins got hurt. Lucky to win despite playin like crap in finals game 7. (some ref help there too, sheed was fouled a few times with no call, a couple phantom calls in la favor, esp at start of fourth qtr to get them in the penalty). Kobes luck goes beyond luck. 02 wcf was not luck, gettn pau was not luck. Ref help in game 7 was not luck. Again, kobe is a superstar, but his legacy is inflated through luck and league/ref help

  • http://thephotoriot.com davidR

    chance, luck, and circumstance all have their part in sports and being the best/greatest. harsh, but true.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    I’m a Kobe fan , but I don’t think Jordan is overrated as GOAT. Although the stats are skewed due to Kobe spending age 18-21 on an NBA bench instead of a college one. Subtract those three years and the numbers are a lot closer. I did the math once, but I forgot exact numbers. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 28 points 5.5-6 boards and 5 assists.

  • http://www.dontevenreply.com total scrotal implosion

    And I didnt say pau deserved finals mvp. I said he outperformed kobe, like tony did in 07. I think timmy should have gotten it in 07 despite tony putting up better numbers. No doubt, kobe is the man on lal but pau outperformed him….

  • http://www.slamonline.com jumpman3224

    Jordan = GOAT, signed a Kobe fan. But, as far as the efficency debate I don’t see it as a landslide in favor of MJ. For his career Jordan shot .497 from the field to Kobe’s .455. That means out of every 100 shots, MJ made 49.7 and Kobe made 45.5. Meaning 4 more per hundred. Or 1 more per 25. If two guys put up 25 shots in a game and Guy A made 1 more than Guy B, no one would be saying that Guy A was that much more efficent. So why does that same ratio over the span of thousands of games make such a big difference? Maybe I am looking at this through purple and gold colored glasses, but I think it’s something to consider. Also, Kobe luckiest superstar ever just because he had talent around him to win titles?! All champions play with talent around them (save for Hakeem in 94). Maybe LBJ is the luckiest, because he is a superstar who hasn’t had to deal with the burden of actually winning a title to be considered great.

  • http://www.borntocompete.com Money$hot

    Jordan is the best no doubt, but Kobe career is not over he still has a chance to surpass MJ.

  • http://www.slamonline.com jumpman3224

    @total scrotal implosion: I love Gasol and he is invaluable to the Lakers, but outperformed Kobe in the Finals? C’mon. Don’t forget that Gasol only broke 20 points 3 times in 7 games (Kobe 7 for 7), was below average from the FT line and only outrebounded Kobe by 3 a game. Also, going into game 7 Kobe was favored as the MVP win or lose by many media pundits.

  • gpaul

    ok I can play that game tis…. KG lucky kevin mchale was working for the t-wolves, ray lucky seattle aint want his ass no more, lebron lucky he aint know his daddy, tim duncan lucky a hurricane hit his island, steve nash lucky he wasn’t THAT good in soccer, MJ lucky he grew to 6’6″ nobody else in his family that tall,Shaq lucky charlotte traded kobe bryant, c’mon man you can say every-damn-body lucky, you just another kobe hater and you know it. but nothings wrong with that you can hate his ass all you want but don’t come with sh*t like he’s more fortunate than anyone else potna. and if your saying pau outperformed him, isn’t that the same as he deserved finals mvp im just saying man, just saying, lol.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Wayno

    Come on, you can’t just subtract Kobe’s 1st 2 seasons to make his career numbers more comparable to Mike’s. The career averages are what they are. MJ > Kobe all day every day.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    It makes sense to subtract Kobe’s numbers since he came to the league straight out of high school.
    I mean, dude was competing with men as a teenager, and he was holding his own to a certain degree.
    It’s stupid not to consider his age and level of experience when discussing career stats.
    Because I’m certain that when Kobe starts creeping up on Jordan for TOTALS people are going to point out he got to play much longer because he came straight out of high school.
    Can’t have it both ways.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    total scrotal implosion: My point was, ALL players get lucky to win championships. Jordan didn’t win anything until he was pretty much gift rapped Pippen. Does that even compare to what Kobe got? No. But look at how lucky guys like “Magic” got, who played with the NUMBER 1 GREATEST CENTER OF ALL TIME HIS ROOKIE YEAR then GOT A FIRST ROUND LEGENDARY DRAFT PICK MIDWAY THROUGH HIS CAREER, and well, I don’t see how you can see Kobe is as lucky.
    jumpman: 4 made shots more per game is a 12-15 point difference. It’s sort of big.

  • gpaul

    Money$hot, kobe my boy , but he aint surpassing him in his career. Unless he averages 50 points, 10 assists, shoots 70% all over the next 7 years, he’s never gonna average mikes numbers. Surpass him in rings is a total possibility, but career avg. and mikes legendary status, never.

  • JTaylor21

    @The seed, I disagree with you about every sport having a GOAT. In futbol people will either say Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, even Ronaldo (the Brazilian not the overrated Portuguese). In Baseball there’s HAaron, WMays, BRuth, JDimagio, even NRyan. In football there’s JRice, JMontana, ESmith, RWhite, LTaylor, even Neon Deon. It’ the EXACT same thing in BBall; there’s BRussel, MJ, Zeke, Hakeem, Kareem, Magic, BigO, Bird, TD and a few others who have a say. That’s why it’s so difficult pinpointing the GOAT because all these players have a right to be labeled the greatest, if you just say that one player is better than the rest, you are DISRESPECTING what the others accomplished.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    All of this MJ/Kobe fighting about shooting percentages and what not and NOBODY has even acknowledged the fact that MJ played in an era where there was no zone defense. It’s not hard to shoot 50%+ when you’re going to the rack every time and dunking with nobody in the way because they don’t want to end up on a poster (which really WAS a big deal at the time). Even still, Kobe’s career FG percentage isn’t that far off from MJ. I know some commenters like to devalue Kobe on this site, but in comparison, he’s a lot closer to MJ than people WANT to give him credit for.

  • gpaul

    Bryan Crawford, I totally agree, i was saying for kobe to make up the difference of his and mj’s numbers he would have to avg ridiculous numbers over the next few seasons to make up for over a thousand games played, thats all my man.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    JTaylor21
    I understand your point, but every year sports analyst and media come up with lists. Then Slamonline should do no more lists of the greatest players ever. I understand your point, but Pele is the greatest soccer player, Wille Mays is way greater than the rest. Hank Aaron played a long time and just average a certain amount of homeruns, Babe Ruth played in an all white league and Gibson for the Negro league actually hit more homeruns than them both. Dimagio could hit and Ryan pitched-can’t be called greatest pitching. MJ is GOAT because of media, sport movies/space jam-come fly with me video, and MJ coming thru each year in the finals. I actually feel MJ going to play baseball then come back and rule the NBA after falling on his back against Orlando in the playoffs that year increase his value and the Greaters EVER. Not every NBA player can take off about a year then come back the same. Jerry Rice is the greatest, I can compare them all because Barry was better than Emmitt, MOntana is great, but I can make the case John Elway is better and rwhite and ltaylor played defense can’t be best. MJ benefited from growing league from Bird and Magic, then Zeke then kicked all their buts and him taking off a year and then coming back then wining three rings and could have gotten more is his POINT of being the greatest. I am not trying to disrepect each game or sport but none of the Bball players you mention can hold a candle to MJ. Only three players in the NBA have a chance to equal MJ in their careers right now if get the rings and get the honors. Kobe, Lebron and Durant thats it. But I think Kobe has a chance if Barkley and other legends and the media/analyst see them being close.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    Bryan Crawford: Invalid argument. The 90s had hand checking and tougher fouls, which in my mind evens out the lack of zone defenses.

  • jumpman3224

    @Jukai: You must have misread my post. MJ and KB24′s averages work out to MJ making 4 more shots per one hundred (not 4 more per game). 4 more makes per 100 works out to 1 more make per 25 shots, which is close to a single game total of attempts. That means in an average game if Kobe and MJ took 25 shots each, MJ would have made one extra shot, not a huge difference from a micro view.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    jumpman3224: Eh, I guess. I think you’re undervaluing the difference but in fairness I think many people (Eboy) overvalue the difference. So it balances out.
    I really don’t think there is much offensive difference between Kobe and Jordan, and I’ve stated that multiple times.

  • jumpman3224

    @jukai: I agree. That is more or less what I am trying to point out. The difference in efficeincy is slim and they are on a closer level than haters will acknowledge. People love to act like Kobe is so inefficient as compared to MJ, but no one offers any sort of data or statistic to support the claim.

  • Jake

    There’s one reason that MJ will never be equaled in any sport.We talked about this in marketing class.There’s never been an athlete that has changed every single aspect of their sport from both a playing standpoint and a business standpoint.Michael Jordan is the reason 8th graders are scouted today.Michael Jordan is the reason players left and right are getting sneaker deals worth millions.Michael Jordan is the reason people in their 20′s wear Hanes,drink Gatorade,rock nikes and eat Mcdonalds.He’s ALSO the reason that coaches changed their entire way of doing things in the 80′s and 90′s.I’m out.

  • JTaylor21

    @The seed everything you said was on point, I may NOT agree with it but you’re on point. I do have one problem when you said that RWhite, LTaylor, and Neon Deon (I noticed how you left him out) can not be considered because they played defense. WHAAAAAAAAAAAT. Isn’t defense the MOST important part of a team and the KEY ingredient to winning a CHIP in ANY sport. Every GREAT offenses that won championships have all had underrated GREAT defenses that are not mentioned when people talk about the team. Defense WINS championships while the Offense gets all the GLORY.

  • http://air-tsinelas.blogspot.com Roy

    Simply the GOAT. Period. :D

  • JTaylor21

    @Jake so just because he had the GREATEST marketing team in history means that he should be anointed the GOAT. Come on, son, we are talking about what’s accomplished between the 94 feet of hardwood not in front of some green screen.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    Jim Brown > Jerry Rice

  • http://Slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    @Jukai… So hand checking and hard fouls is the equivalent to playing a zone where you don’t have to actually guard anyone, but an area on the floor? Ok…

  • http://Slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    My bad, Jukai…you said “in my mind.” Your opinion, not bball fact.

  • JTaylor21

    @Jukai and Jumpman, I’ve pointed out the gap in efficeny between MJ and Kobe numerous times. When one player (Kobe) has never shot above 46 FG% in a season for his entire career and another one (MJ) shot above 50 FG% 4 times and above 48 FG% 11 times in his career, there’s a SIZABLE gap in terms of efficiency. You non-students may not know a single thing with regards to mathematics and numbers but a .05 FG% difference is a HUGE one.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    Bryan: I was being nice, but since you decided to make this difficult… Using your hand to lead a player away from a basket is MUCH stronger of a defense than simply having someone behind you being able to slide infront of a player. I mean, sure you have a zone, but you have to keep your hands in the air or outwards and can’t touch the player, making it far easier for that player to blow by you. And it’s not like a player couldn’t jump infront of you if you blew by your initial man. A zone makes it hard to drive but don’t kid yourself, hand checking makes man-on-man defense infinitely easier.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    @ Jatylor21, I agree with you, defense does win games and in football its the most important reason, but RWhite and LTaylor and Deion can’t be call the greatest player ever for football playing defense. You wouldn’t use that analogy for basketball, so why use it for football. You wouldn’t say Mutumbo is the greatest because he played good defense, but I see your point man.
    @ Jukai, Jim Brown was ahead of his time, but since he retired early I feel skew him from being considered greatest player ever. He can be considered one of the greatest running backs ever with Barry and others, but not player. Jerry Rice has too many records, rings and longevity to not be considered GOAT. NFL analyst and even other players have stated the same thing. Did you watch Jim Brown play or did you see the highlights like me, he was stronger than everyone with speed, but I put him in the Bill Russell club, where they were before their time, but if played now would be good maybe great, but the talent level back then was very skewed in the wrong way to value his worth as the greatest ever player.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Wayno

    @ Allen – Right, but Kobe could have gone to college if he wanted to, that was his choice. There were a couple HS to NBA players who were pretty successful right from the get go (LeBron and Shawn Kemp come to mind). So in thier case, LeBron specifically, why can’t we just subtract their first season or two(whicher makes them look better) to make thier stats better for comparing to greats? Subtracting his 1st 2 seasons from his stats for the sake of comparison is the same as saying “if he were 7’0 he’d the best center ever” or some other stupid hypothetical. His career stats should stand as they really are when comparing them to other greats. If you go down that road I guess you might as well subtract MJ’s last 2 seasons because he was old.

  • http://Slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Jukai, that’s just ridiculous and absurd logic, but OK. Believe that if you want.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Wayno

    wicher=whichever^^^

  • http://Slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    And to clarify, I’m not arguing that hand checking doesn’t make man d easier, my argument is a zone makes it harder for the offensive player to score

  • http://Slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    FYI – hand checking is very easy to counter. Zone D, not so much.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    And what, hand checking makes it easier to defend? What drugs are you on?

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Co sign Bryan
    I would rather someone have their hand on my leg or side playing me one on one, than a zone stopping me from using my quick first step or my crossover dribble. With a zone defense you have to pick your spots and shoot when the rotation of the zone has an opening. With a hand check defense, I can at least get by them and get in the lane ten times easier to score.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    Zone D is very easy to counter, it’s called SPREADING THE FLOOR. It’s harder to move players around if you stack shooters around. Maybe this has a far more adverse effect on Kobe because he can’t see the shooters when he’s driving, but Jordan would chop this up. Attack inbetween zones, kick to the man who is opened now, now you can’t zone up as easy. Get a good man-to-man defender who can lead you with his hands into a big? A lot freaking harder to get around.
    I love playing against zones, I LOVE it. Man on man handchecking is much harder.
    Man, Bryan, how did you get a writing gig here?

  • http://Slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Drugs, Jukai? I’m wondering the same about you. You’re arguing against a common sense principle of basketball.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    The common sense of basketball is that the 90s had the toughest defenses out of any era in basketball history. Hysterically enough, nowadays it’s considered soft. Funny.
    What defense is allowed now and what defense is allowed then? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Tell me coach!

  • http://Slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Jukai,whatever you say. A wise man told me don’t argue with fools…

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Great FOTS again, Schneezy. Keep it up, holmes!
    Also, I have no problem with people calling MJ the GOAT in basketball, and as crazy as that 37 ppg statline is… I’ve gotta say, 50.4 ppg, 25.7 rpg, 2.4 apg, on 50.6% shooting from the field, is more impressive.
    Wilt is the GOAT. His statline is so ridiculous that people tend to downplay it and claim he was in an era with scrubs (completely false… There were great HOF players and fewer teams back then) because it’s unheard of. Really, just take a moment and think about that statline.

  • http://Slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Jukai must be a very frail dude that gets pushed around on the court. Put your hands on him and he’s done. Play zone and all he has to do is shoot it
    His logic is that of a bum. Bum…

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    Bryan: I guess you don’t spend a lot of time talking to yourself in the mirror.
    Thanks for the great debate, kiddo.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Zone defense is NOT all it’s hyped up to be. Seriously. Not sure why the NBA was so scared of it until recently. Players just have to be able to stick jumpers. And honestly, big men can still rip sh!t up in the post–just ask Scola.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/ Myles Brown

    Zone defense is a big difference, especially for a player who struggled with shot shot early on like MJ. Plus, Jordan had no athletic equal during the 80′s so while hand checking may help it doesn’t as much as it may seem. You can’t hold what you can’t catch. Or what jumps right over you. Michael Jordan was an athletic marvel in a league of earthbound players. Who was closest, Clyde? Nique? That’s practically the norm these days. .

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    And handchecking is the dirty/great defender’s solace.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    Bryan: Come on up to Rochester on the courts here dude, let’s see how frail I am. I love it when tough guys on the internet talk about basketball.

  • http://Slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Myles, I didn’t want to raise the athleticism point but thanks.

  • JTaylor21

    @Bryan, Jukia is right but not by much. He’s right when he says that hand checking man defense is WAY harder to score on than zone defense. Anybody who watched the suns/lakers series this year knows just HOW terrible zone defense can be (maybe it was the suns that made it look so BAD). He’s wrong when he says that the 90s had the toughest defenses while today’s defenses are soft. I’ve watched many 90s games and the level of hand checking was GROSSLY overstated. Players did hand-check but not to the extend that people think. People say that just to point to their claim that 90s players were better than this era’s players which is total BS. Guys like Kobe/DWade/Dirk/Bron would be just as GOOD in the 90s as they are today.

  • http://Slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Rochester? As in New York, Jukai? I rest my case.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    Sigh, hand checking MASSIVELY makes up for the athleticism differences between two people, especially in speed. If you’re strong, you can use your hands to lead someone where you want them. It takes away the speed advantage. Zone defenses simply take away ball handling advantages, but a speedy guard can still absolutely crush the zone (Navaro)

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    Where you from Bryan, Kentucky?

  • http://Slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    For those arguing against common sense, hand checking is a “tactic” in man-to-man, not an actual defense. If hand checking makes it tough for you to sure, then you suck at basketball and shouldn’t be playing.

  • http://Slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Chicago, Jukai. Home to more than one pro. Unlike Rochester.

  • http://www.slamonline.com jumpman3224

    @jtaylor: You are wrong regarding multiple points.
    1. You said that Kobe never shot over 46%. A “student” such as your self should know how to work a google search and if you had you could find Kobe’s Career stats on NBA.Com. Kobe has shot over 46% multiple times (99, 00, 01, 02, 07 and 09).
    2. In addition to your lack of fact checking, the whole premise of your claim is off-base. You are just picking individual seasons to discuss career efficiency. MJ’s career fg% is .042% higher than Kobe’s, no matter how you slice it.
    3. In talking about efficiency you completely ignore other measurs of shooting efficiency (FT and 3). Kobe has higher career percentages in both categories. In the case of 3FGs, Kobe shot over 1% higher than Jordan, so using your theory of .05 being a huge difference, that 1% is a lot.
    4. According to mathematics, .05% is equal to 1 out of every 200. That is a very small difference (ie 50 out of 200 is essentially no different than 49 out of 200.)

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    We’ll organise some 4 on 4!
    A SLAM ROUND ROBIN!
    Jukai, Dacre, AllenP and Darksaber -vs- Jtayl0r21, Eboy, The Seed, Bryan Crawford!

  • http://Slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Chicago, Jukai. Home to more than one pro.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    I guess in Chicago, if someone zones you up, you can’t score. Guess ya can’t shoot in Chicago.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/ Myles Brown

    Meh. We saw how Jordan did with hand checking. Considering he couldn’t shoot straight during his early years, I’d like to see he’d handle the zone. It’s an interesting comparison, one I’d rather get a definitive opinion on from a an actual NBA player than argue about any further.

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    ‘hand-checking’ gets used in a whole range of defensive efforts, not just in a man-on-man setting… getting picked up on defense from quarter court, trying to make a cut through a zone defense along the baseline. Thats not unusual.

  • http://Slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Dacre, give me Myles. JT21 can have next.

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    Myles – re watching the Sonics – Bulls finals series, there was a little ‘illegal’ zone used there….when the refs let Seattle get away with it…

  • http://Slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Jukai, you’re on the internets…all we do in Chicago is shoot. And for the record, the J is wet. However you want it son, I’ll gladly give it to you.

  • http://www.slamonline.com jumpman3224

    My vote for football GOAT – Jim Brown.
    I’ve got love for Rice and he did have the longevity and more titles. But, Brown was so far ahead of his time and what he did in a short career could never be duplicated.
    Rice GP 303 TD 207
    Brown GP 118 TD 126 (on pace for 323.5 TDs if played 303 games)
    Rice – All Pro in 12 out of 21 seasons and 0 MVPs
    Brown – All Pro in 9 out of 9 seasons and 3 MVPs

    On top of that, some of Brown’s records STILL stand and some are recently starting to fall in an era with more games per year than he ever played.

  • JTaylor21

    @Dacre, I’ll be the KG for the squad because I would have to do EVERYTHING to carry the team. EBoy would be the White Chocalate and The Seed and Bryan would be Mark Madsen and DJ Mbenga, the token pick setters.

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    @ Bryan – done!

  • MayhemCharlie

    I think people comparing Kobes overall stats vs Michaels overall stats need to remember Michaels overall stats also include a few years where he was in decline (i.e with the wizards) and Kobe hasn’t been through the decline part of his career yet. So to say we should ignore Kobes first two years and compare him with Jordans overall career is still not accurate as to how they compare as players. Maybe their averages from over their peak years? Say 22 (26?) – 32?

  • http://www.sonicbids.com doyouwantmore

    Big O

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    Myles: Jordan did several stints through Europe where zone was allowed and tore it up. I believe we can see one of them from the video footage above. And yeah, I know, Europe sucked hardcore during this period of time, but I just don’t see the zone stopping Jordan more than hand-checking man-to-man. It’s not like Jordan wasn’t getting double/triple teamed with hand checking anyway.
    Not to mention, Jordan’s midrange was still pretty wet. He couldn’t shoot a three for the life of him back in the day, but his midrange started working very early on (at the very latest, his third season). You can kill the zone with a proper midrange too. Cause, you know, apparently I’m frail and easily pushed around, but I feast on the f*cking zone.

  • http://Www.dimemag.com Royal

    Hand checking versus Zone defense really depends on the player….A player like Steve Nash would struggle with handchecking but would dominate a zone defense with his shooting and passing whereas Lebron and a young MJ would struggle hitting perimiter shots against a zone but would be ok with hand checking due to their ability to beat anyone off the bounce and finish strong

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    @ Bryant and Jukai…that Derrick Rose kid seems to be able to yoke it fiercly whether it be man o’ man or euro-zone. There are plenty of slashers in the windy city (too windy to shoot anyway??)
    _____________________________________________________
    @ JTaylor – hahaha… and after a few games you’ll have to be traded for half my team to win something????
    _____________________________________________________
    I’m keen for a game now – lets get something organised for the weekend.

  • Mitya

    note that Kobe’s name wasn’t even mentioned in the post…

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    A QUESTION: How do we define the ‘bad boy days’? The Detroit defense that primarily focused on ‘checking/fouling’ the crackers out of a young and hungry Michael Jordan? Where they playing a soft zone, a switching man to man, a hybrid of some hardcore-prison defensive set????

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    PLUS— and I should have thought about this form the beginning— wouldn’t a GREAT SHOOTER like Kobe be more effected by hand checking instead of a zone? If we’re saying a young Jordan would be so friggin’ hurt by a zone defense (which I find highly skeptical) can’t we turn around and say an older “I love to shoot jumpers and never attack the basket sometimes” Bryant be really hurt if someone can keep their hands on Kobe every second?
    Good lord.

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    @ Mitya: Who’s name?

  • The Fresh Prince of Nsam

    Jake 6:27 = Best point of the 100+.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    I’d like to think of Bryan as one of those kids who just lowers his head and drives everytime he gets the ball, makes a few baskets in the beginning, then everyone just closes in on him and he starts missing them. Everyone else is open but Bryan just keeps lowerin’ his head and running in there, ignoring everyone else around him.
    Man, that zone must be a killer!!!!

  • JTaylor21

    @Dacre, I’m up for a game too. I’m in the NO so just holla.

  • The Fresh Prince of Nsam

    On the D debate, I have 2 agree with Jukai, sorry Bryan

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    Jukai – I see that too… the drive to the base line, head down, incorporating a ‘sliding pivot foot spin move’ polished off with the ‘herky-jerky-bezerky’ (3-5 irratic pump fakes) and a brick off the backboard…

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    @ JT – I’m in Australia, so in all reality unless we plan some “SLAM-international ALL-world tourney” I’ll have to settle for a run down at the local Y, the ‘immortalised’ Wollongong SnakePit!

  • http://Slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    And Jukai, being that you’re from Rochester, I’d like to think of you as someone who can’t hoop. Now, go get in the weight room. And Fresh Prince, since you agree with him, it’s clear you can’t hoop either. I’m wasting no more time talking to cats that obviously can’t ball. Gone…

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I cant believe there is even an argument about zone vs. Hand checking. This is unbelievable.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Shut up Dacre! It works!

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    Believe it Eebs…. End Game.

  • http://shinefluid@aol.com CHICAGO SAID IT YUP

    would you please stop the kobe came out of H.S argument. so what? so did lebron and are his numbers skewed? hell he has better numbers than kobe. and mike has better numbers than both of them. MEN lie WOMEN lie numbers do not

  • http://shinefluid@aol.com CHICAGO SAID IT YUP

    would you please stop the kobe came out of H.S argument. so what? so did lebron and are his numbers skewed? hell he has better numbers than kobe. and mike has better numbers than both of them. MEN lie WOMEN lie numbers do not

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    Bryan Crawford’s knowledge of the game is about as on par as his articles. Atrocious. He makes Sandy Dover look like Ryan f*cking Jones.
    But at least he can ball with the 12-year-olds in the white suburban park he plays in and beat ‘em all. Those little kiddies can’t stop you with that zone, son!!!

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Jukai, who’s your pick for GOAT in football? Jerry comes pretty d@mn close, holmes.

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    At the end of the day, if we could ball at any particular level that generates income, we wouldn’t be on SLAM. We would be tweetin’ from our offseason holiday house in southern Italy…

  • JTaylor21

    @Dacre, great idea on the slam international all-world tourney. Holla at slam to set that up to see who out of all the cats that comment on this site can REALLY ball. I have a STRONG feeling that I’ll come out on top with my CAJUN sensation moves.

  • http://www.dontevenreply.com total scrotal implosion

    A slamonline tourney would be sick. I would shaqfu you all

  • Benjamin Stone

    Damn, can we just appreciate the dunk? Sick. Disgusting. Looked like he barely jumped and he’s launching from outside the dotted arc, busting a backboard with one hand. And the glass falls all over the two dudes he just dunked on, yet somehow completely misses the man himself. And he just turns around and runs downcourt…classic. The only thing that woulda made it better was if one of those dudes was Craig Ehlo…

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Ive been involved with the Slam invatational talks with commenters on here for the longest. Lets just say out of the WRITERS for Slam, theres only one who would worry me. In conversations (like todays) you can see why certain cats write about the sport we love and not play it.

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    @ Teddy! Haa haa… Nice. Hey I didn’t say it was ineffective just ugly as sin. I’ve been known to reach in to my bag of tricks and pull out any number of the following moves:
    * The ‘herky jerky bezerky’ (as mentioned above)
    * The ‘Hornacek splash’ – a floating one hander off the base line that is as ugly as sin.
    * Skipping Spin-Sultan – Jumping off your first step and the taking your second step for the lay in (usually involves rolling the ball in a circular motion to negate guys ‘reaching in’)
    * The “Air Raid” – A 3 point shot with such a high arch it comes down after the NEXT basket is made?

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    Teddy: Jim Brown if you think he’d do as good in this era, Joe Montana if you don’t.

  • http://Slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Jukai, that’s why Sandy and I write here and you only comment. Stop crying…

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    I usually get to play twice a week against the Chinese University students that have come over to study in australia, one of the first things your try to teach them is how to call out the word ‘SCREEN’!!!!

  • http://www.dontevenreply.com total scrotal implosion

    Oh, in futbol. Pele is not clear cut goat. Its between pele and diegito (maradona) . The casual knownothing will say pele, because its been repeated so many times by other knownothings. The knowledgable will say flip a coin

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    They are a fun bunch but that ‘face recognition’ thing is working, because they’ve dubbed me steve nash…. (white guy?)

  • http://Slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Although clearly not a pre-req Eboy, playing the game certainly lends itself to a better understanding of it.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    Bryan: Yeah, I gots a real job which makes real money, so I don’t have to write awful articles on SLAM’s website.

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    Is anyone playing in rec leagues in the local town/city????????????
    How old is everyone here?
    (I’m 30)

  • JTaylor21

    @TSI, are you talking baby shaqfu or 38yr old struggling to finish around the basket shaqfu? I’m only kidding but are you even TALL enough to get on a roller coaster because you would have a hard time guarding my IMPECCABLE turnaround J.

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    Total – I’d say flip a coin over it…

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    Troy Aiken.

  • The Fresh Prince of Nsam

    Juks, I don’t agree with u on Bryan articles…

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    …I flipped a coin and it landed on an edge?

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    The Fresh Prince of Nsam: THEN YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOTU BASKETBALAL@!!!!!!!!!1111

  • http://Slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Good for you, Jukai. I’m happy for you. I may be an awful writer, but I do it for an awesome site/magazine. Nothing you say about me really even matters based on that fact alone.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    Bryan: I’m glad you don’t take criticism on your awful writing or your awful basketball. I’m heading out, have fun obliterating common sense, Bryan.

  • JTaylor21

    It’s a pre-requisite that you must have PLAYED some ball in order to write about it. That’s why I hate cats like BSimmons who probably have NEVER even played a second of ball in his life, but thinks that they have the right/knowledge to talk SH*T about someone who does it for a living.

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    Don’t worry Bryan every one of us commentors here would LOVE a look in at contributing to SLAM. Jealousy is a dish… best served with fries…? I don’t know what that means.

  • http://Slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    If people ain’t hating on you, then you ain’t doing nothing. That goes for Kobe, LBJ, and even lil ‘ol, insignificant, me. Peace out, guys.

  • The Fresh Prince of Nsam

    Juks my brotha, if I knew anything about BBall, it’ll b paying my Scotch tasting in Edinburg n I’ll not be enjoying ur pleasant comments (and Bryan’s articles)

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    It’s TMacs fault.

  • The Philosopher

    Barry Sanders = The G.O.A.T.
    He may not really be the G.O.A.T.
    He is my dude, though.

  • The Philosopher

    And, as I said on more than one occasion:
    SLAM AND ALL of its writers…
    are The G.O.A.T.

  • http://www.twitter.com/TheDiesel Anton

    Reminds me a lot of Steve Nash.

  • JTaylor21

    @Philo, I forgot about BSanders, dude also has a STRONG case too. I first saw him play in college and I remember thinking that I was watching some kind of football practice where you’re not allowed to hit the players. Dude was just going for 50 yrd td runs every other carry, it was beyond ridiculous.

  • Mitya

    It’s funny, I first came across that footage just a few days back. Was randomly browsing through youtube, and clicked on this “top 5 backboard-breaking dunks”. This one was number 3, I think. One of my boys started arguing with me it it wasn’t MJ, whom I of course recognized immediately, so I had to look it up and prove it.
    I say – second to none. And to add some weight to these words – y’all can look up MY article on slamonline. WHUT!

  • hammer

    221 posts. Dam! 2 those of u who r sayin that mj is not the goat or refuses 2 believe n 1,here’s ur dam proof! 221 posts! Nuff said 4 the gr8 mj!

  • http://www.dontevenreply.com total scrotal implosion

    jtaylor, young shaqfu. and i would swat your turnaround every single time. just cuz it works on the 5 7 sixth graders in your neighborhood doesnt mean it will work on me. you have zero chance at guarding me.

  • slick ric

    It’s not MJ fault Kobe didnt start his first two season, Lebron started his first two seasons and would of started on those lakers teams back then. The fact of the matter is Mj has Kobe beat in everything except three point shooting and it isnt like kobe is a great threepoint shooter so thats pretty much a moot point.

  • JTaylor21

    Good one TSI. If it works on sixth graders why shouldn’t it work on 4-9 leprechauns. After I’m done schooling you, you’re gonna get me a pot of gold from under the rainbow.

  • hammer

    Who else could summon people 2day 2 all these posts sum 20sum yrs later after breaking a backboard!? Only mj! The G.O.A.T. Undeniably. Undoubtly. 4get comparing ers when it comes 2 mj u simpletons! 6 titles,6 finals mvp’s,10 scoring titles and 1 point 7 of them n a row,5 time league mvp,2 olympic gold medals,the ROY,the DPOY,ACC player of the year as well as ACC freshman of the yr,slam dunk champion,3 time nba all-star mvp,14 time nba all-star,collegiate champion and HOFAMER! And u know people that that is not all right? His global popularity cannot b exaggerated as well as the $ he made and continues 2 make 4 the nba and 4 his brand. What! Say somethin! Step up ya’ll and argue against that!

  • hammer

    And just 4 the record. How n the world could u look @ kobe’s style of play and NOT c ANY similarities whatsoever 2 mj’s? The defense,the fadeaway,the tenacity,the tuff,clutch shots or the game winners? People r either haters or just plain stupid not 2 c that. On the court,and MANY players and ex-players have said this,kobe is the closest 2 mj as any1. Ya’ll 4get mj even tutored kobe @ 1 point n time. But no matter what,people r gonna believe what they want 2 believe instead of opening their eyes 2 the naked truth. MJ is and will ALWAYS b the greatest. Not kobe. Not LeBl**job james. Not any1. As jay-z said on his roc la familia the dynasty album “get ur mind right” people

  • http://sdjkflf.com Jukai

    @Hammer: Uh, when did MJ tutor Kobe, out of curiosity?

  • Mitya

    It was probably when Kobe was watching his Come Fly With Me tape after school back in Italy.
    And with the third pick I made the earth sick
    MJ, him J, fadeaway perfect

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Okay Hammer… Wilt Chamberlain…

  • http://www.pablasso.com pablasso

    About Wilt: I guess he was okay. 50 points on any given night is pretty money but over 50 games… that’s just stupid. Do I dare say G.O.A.T?….YUP.

  • http://www.hibachi20.blogspot.com Hursty

    Keyboard warriors.
    Only guy on the SLAM staff I’d worry about would be Myles.

  • http://slamonline.com Brad Long

    Meh.

  • http://slamonline BossTerry

    Glad I didnt step into this boxing ring.. No offense to EBOY, I often think you are right on point, but ends post @ 11:54 am made me laugh..

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    I’d take Hursty and Myles both with the herky-jerky-bezerky. Just sayin’…

  • http://www.twitter.com/hurstysyd Hursty

    Teddy- them’s fightin’ words bruh. I’d come right back with the ‘loop de loop’ move. I cant tell you what it involves though. But I use a Swedish witch-doctor, a crystal sword and a bowl that can change the weather. It may also involve me using tissue paper and highlighters. In no particular order though.

  • http://www.shawnkemp.com Masr

    I never got to see mj play at all but i got to see him play as a wizard I HATE THE FACT I WASN’T BORN EARLIER!

  • http://Www.fiba.com Darksaber

    Dacre, just coming back from a torn achilles, gimme 2 months and i’m game. Can i also bring some soap for greektroll’s insulting mouth?

  • andy

    seriously guys…it’s a never ending argument…comparing kobe to mj is like comparing whether or not to have a steak for dinner or a roast chicken. it’s subject to interpretation!

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    The league doesn’t allow real zone defense, and most teams don’t use much zone.
    Y’all can’t act like Kobe is facing a serious 2-3 zone on a regular basis, or a match up zone. Most nights, he’s going against man-to-man defense. In the NBA, you have to stay within arms length of a player while in the lane, or face a penalty. It’s not like a college zone at all.
    I’m not saying hand checking is more difficult, but I don’t think the zone is more difficult either, particularly not the way it’s played in the NBA. I think Jordan had a real athletic advantage over everybody before his first retirement, but he was still more efficient than Kobe after he came back, even if it wasn’t by as much.
    Bottom line, Kobe settles way, WAY too much for long jumpers, particularly three pointers because of his insane skillset and belief in his abililty to hit any shot.
    I don’t think there can be any real debate about who was more efficient when you compare KObe to Mike. Mike was never trying to “prove” he was the greatest of all time, while we know that Kobe has devoted entire seasons to just that enterprise.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Comparing the era when Kobe jumped to the league to when Lebron jumped to the league is bogus, not even considering that Kobe was playing on a serious playoff team, while Lebron was on a bottom feeder.
    Lebron had been preparing to jump to the League since his soph year in high school and was doing all the wait training and drilling necessary. When Kobe jumped, a guard hadn’t skipped college in DECADES. It was a different situation completely and ignoring this makes you intellectually dishonest, or ignorant.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    wait = weight

  • The Philosopher

    The King would have started on Kobe’s Laker squad had he come in at that time.

  • The Philosopher

    On a side note, some people need to look up Eboy’s comments a few threads ago regarding a similar topic.
    It was not that long ago.

  • The Philosopher

    It was… utter literary brilliance, and factual dominance.

  • http://www.slamonline.com jumpman3224

    If it hadn’t been for Kobe’s successes after skipping college, LeBron James would not have got nearly the same publicity or hype. Kobe and KG changed the NBA to a point that LBJ was able to come in and start right away. In a lot of ways, LBJ was able to do what he did as a rookie because of groundwork laid by Kobe.

  • The Philosopher

    Nah.
    Moses Malone.
    Bill Willoughby.
    Darryl Dawkins.
    Hype and publicity are a different entity.
    If you’ve got the goods…

  • http://www.slamonline.com jumpman3224

    @The Phil: I realize players in earlier decades skipped college, but none had the success or marketing appeal that Kobe had between 1996-2003 (debatable w/ Malone). Kobe’s rise to stardom put more focus on high school prospects than ever before which allowed LeBron to enjoy unprecidented publicity. Thousands of players between Malone and Bryant “had the goods” and [almost] all of them went to college. You are looking this in a vaccum, you can’t (well you canm but it is ignorant) take one player and automatically place him in a different circumstance and ignore any outside factors. Also, I know hype and publicity are different, hence the use of “or”.

  • The Philosopher

    Kobe’s rise led The King to enjoy unprecedented publicity?
    I beg to differ.
    The King’s unprecedented potential led to the unprecedented publicity and mass appeal.
    I don’t think I ignore outside factors concerning players’ circumstances.
    Even the thousands of players that did make it to The League, many of them didn’t have the goods, either.

  • barnabusb

    I love how that tall doofus gets a face full of glass.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Nah, Kobe and KG paved the way for all the cats who made the high school to pros jump. After they did it, players started removing college from the equation. Big men did it first, but then after Kobe, TMac and others started blowing up, swingmen started seeing skipping college as their first option. You have to remember that the Lebron hype really started right when the Lakers were finishing up their three peat and Kobe’s appeal was at its apex.
    You’re ignoring reality if you don’t think Kobe skipping college contributed to Lebron’s development, and what how he got himself ready to skip school.
    What’ amazing is that Kobe was in the “Best in the League” discussions when Lebron was in high school, and he’s still in those same discussions now that Lebron is a seven year vet. That’s a helluva run, even if I don’t particularly care for Kobe.

  • http://www.realgm.com Gman

    lets not forget… Jordans FG% was higher than 50%…but no.. he had to come to the Wizards. lol

  • http://www.realgm.com Gman

    Are we comparing Kobes 35 in the i cant touch u defensive era vs MJs 37… in that defensive era..Really?

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  • http://idunkonthem.blogspot.com/ albie1kenobi

    @Allenp: nice perspective on that last paragraph.

  • Elvis Freshly

    lol @ this Kap guy… smh

  • The Philosopher

    My point proven.

  • http://bedotwater.bandcamp.com BE.water

    Why did he jump from there??

    jesus.

  • unosmorne

    You can always resize them however you want without losing any quality.

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