Tuesday, February 28th, 2012 at 10:25 am  |  130 responses

Video: Shawn Kemp Thinks He Was a Better Dunker Than Blake Griffin

During an interview with the guys from SonicsGate, Shawn Kemp candidly explains the difference between his dunks and those that Blake Griffin throws down.

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  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/category/blogs/farmer-jones/ Ryan Jones

    He also thinks he has a lot of kids.

  • thor

    Word. Kemp is my all time favorite dunker because of exacly that. Blake needs to hate on the rim some more.

  • Isaac

    sounds bitter

  • AD

    honestly who’s better i never saw him play?

  • Paul H

    Shawn nearly looks like a few tears are about to break….

  • http://www.slamonline.com spit hot fiyah

    a think he is right in the he was more versatile as a dunker
    @ AD, r u kidding? i know it’s not the same but go to youtube NOW

  • Paul H

    Kemp was better. Like he says, just a little bit more vicious.

  • GC6

    Na seen his prefer griffins

  • Mo

    Kemp actually was the better dunker.

  • Ismael

    Yup! Hands down Shawn Kemp.

  • http://www.reverbnation.com/tray24 T-Ray

    Kemp was the better dunker by far. His dunks were thunderous and demanded respect. Even his alley oops were better. Blake is still pretty boss though.

  • AD

    i went to youtube i disagree.. you all are shawn kem lovers

  • http://www.borntocompete.com Money$hot

    Kemp was a better dunker until he started tripping over those rocks (crack rocks). Griffin dunks are great, but Kemps are a little bit better, but Griffin is still very young in his career and still has plenty more dunking.

  • timboslice

    that was my guy hwne i was a kid for exactly that reason, just VISCIOUS at the rim

  • DruNyce

    Kemp was better, period.

  • anthony y

    Ad your bugging! Shawn kemp was the man!! He is the original, the prototype for what Blake does. He attacked the rim with a vicious abandon that Blake does not have yet. Shawn tried to take the rim off everytime he went up. YouTube doesn’t do him justice..ask rodman or golden state’s center..I forgot his name but he got victimized!!!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Dagger

    Kemp looks like a puppet in this video. Just saying.

  • robb

    @AD I’m a Shawn Kemp lover for sure and I definitely like his dunks more than Griffin’s but in Blake’s defense I can say that on both plays (Mozgov and Perkins) he was pushed, if those guys don’t push him, those would have been proper dunks. It’s not like that Dwight Howard Superman “dunk”, when he did that he simply couldn’t get to the rim.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/category/blogs/farmer-jones/ Ryan Jones

    The best game dunkers in NBA history have been guys who dunk angry. Like they really wanted to hurt and embarrass whoever dared try to defend them at the rim. Young Dr. J, Vince the first few years of his career, and Kemp all fit that bill.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    I take Shawn Kemp anyday of Blake. Kemp actually did moves in the air, went up one way and twisted sideways to dunk. He was a monster. BOOK IT!!!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    Kemp was better but griffin is still young, he may end up being better. I have not seen great improvement in blake game though, from last season to this season.

  • Reeld

    KEMP, was the better dunker

  • Kadavour

    Blake is breath of fresh air, but Kemp was more violent. Played the same way on defense too. pre-knee injury K-Mart was in that category too.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    Alton Lister…

  • http://www.slamonline.com spit hot fiyah

    @ anthony y alton lister = the lister blister

  • http://www.slamonline.com spit hot fiyah

    the one on gatling is probably my favourite, even gatling recognized that one, y’all know what i’m talking about.

  • Mo

    Shawn Kemp and Dominique were the only two dunkers i’ve seen who could bend their bodies into unhuman positions. It resulted in these really cool almost awkward looking agressive slams. I don’t know where the two of them rank all time but no one else could dunk “like” them.


    Respect to all those who recognise the REAL. Shawn Kemp handz down for the beehatches who dont know.

  • fruizm

    I see a better future for Blake, but Shawn Kemp was a monster! That dunk on Rodman…

  • Fat Lever

    Kemp doesn’t look like he was hating in that vid, just having fun. He has a point. Also worth mentioning, is that some of Kemp’s best dunks are in big moments. Blake can be better, he probably gets up a bit higher than Kemp, but SK was relentless when he attacked the rim.

  • Riggs

    Blake doesnt turn his body or move his arms to dunk? because I’ve seen him do that too (and in college also). Shawn Kemp’s dunk package should be on 2k12.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Westbrook is a better dunker than Blake.
    Yeah, I said it.

  • Gman

    yeah… he was.

  • MJP

    Really…who cares

    The Boston Celtics have 17 titles , any high flyers you remember from those teams? The dunk is fun to watch, it is exciting but at the end of the day only counts 2 points…The only high flyer that comes to mind that ever won titles was MJ, because he had the complete package and always worked to get better.
    Blake has an opportunity but he needs to learn to shoot free throws, or he wont be in in crunch time to make a difference.


    Allep P . Don’t get too exited , Westbrook is good & he dunks really hard but he ain’t inovatin $hit.

  • Paul Jones

    Still talking in the third person? lol

  • barnabusb

    Mo is right. Don’t sleep on Dominique. Look up some Youtube videos. He brought it like Kemp did.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    Looks like Kemp is still on the bottle.
    To each their own.
    Hope he’s doing well.

  • http://www.twitter.com/_dfrance dfrance21

    I really can’t say who is better. Loved Kemp no doubt, but Blake has done some amazing dunks, not even considering the Mosgov, Perkins dunks. The other day I think against Denver he took off from about 2 steps below the foul line off two feet double pumped and dunk on like 3 guys. Kemp got up, but he couldn’t just leap from anywhere like Blake does.

    Allenp, whats your logic on Westbrook. He has been throwing down some crazy stuff as of late but better than Blake?

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Today? Kemp. A few years from now…. Probably Blakenator.

  • http://www.alllooksame.com Tarzan Cooper

    Kemp, niq, and vince are the best. Then there’s everyone else. Dawkins is close to the top, but not close enough

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    Blake is doing better dunks than kemp was at his age. very soon blake’s dunks will be just as good as kemps. and cosign robb… people literally are holding or pushing blake in midair… otherwise those dunks would be even more disgusting… and westbrook’s dunks might just be a little more vicious than blake’s. they seem like they get more ferocious every time.

  • Stillballin

    Shawn kemp was a bad man!!!

  • http://www.slamonline.com jdubbs29

    Kemp: “jumpin’ over defenders doesn’t count”


  • logues

    AllenP: that was one of the dumbest things i’ve heard in awhile

  • 23Bulls

    jdubbs i tihnk he said jumping over fender doesnt count

  • mtobi

    You people deaf? Hewas talkin ’bout the fron of the kia. Reporter mentioned Blake jumping over a car, and Kemp said, taht jumping over the front doesnt count, which I fully agree with.

  • bike

    What, exactly, does it mean to be a better dunker? Sounds like some are in favor of some violent/force measure, others favor a vertical leap factor, or is the objective to completely hummiliate the defender? Or is it an intangable ‘holy sh*t’ emotional kind of thing?

  • http://www.boogiewilliams.com Boing Dynasty

    Desmond Mason…just throwing that out there…

  • Sparker

    some interesting comments esp by ryan (nice to have a sighting). i get the impression that nba players fear being posterized by blake, but they don’t actually fear him. i think they feared kemp… ’cause that mofo was crazy. this is a crucial difference on the court. kemp had a better handle too so he could clear space for himself in ways that blake can’t.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    What type of innovations has Blake done? Westbrook goes extremely hard to the rim and he’s 6’4″?
    Are we saying we don’t think he can do a windwill, or we saying he doesn’t dunk over people?
    I remember the dunk contest with Blake. It was boring.
    Westbrook is a better dunker.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    And Bike, it’s completely subjective. Which is why I made that argument.

  • KC

    love blake but KEMP brought the noise.

  • Trout

    Kemp is a different type of forward to griffin. Kemp was a nutcase at times but Griffin isn’t done yet still developing and he also has DeAndre Jordan in the middle and Kemp never had a similar player when he was at the Sonics which was when he was in his prime.

  • PalmSquad

    Kemp had a 48″ vertical as a 6’10″ PF. Check out that reverse dunk he did off a pass against the Knicks, EARLY in his career. NOBODY dunked like that in games! I haven’t seen another like it. Kemp was also UNSTOPPABLE against the Bulls in the 95 Finals. Too bad Mac-10 was hurt. Sonics coulda taken the Bulls that year.
    Don’t forget Kemps defense. Anybody remember his block on Tyus Edney in Sac? He threw that crap halfway up the lower bowl!

  • Kurtis

    People don’t become better dunkers as they get older. Just ask Shawn Kemp. . . or Jordan, or Kobe, or Vince, or Desmond Mason.

    Blake might get better as a player, but as a dunker he is peaking.

  • Heals

    Didn’t we just cover this a few months ago (after some GKarl quotes I think). Same as with LBJ saying he would be open to playing in Cleve again a week or so ago. Chalk it up to ASW I guess. Oh yeah Reign Man gets the slight nod…

  • Heals

    Tracy Morgan anyone?

  • Nick

    Kemp & Payton would put Griffin & Paul to shame!

    Payton —> Kemp over Paul —> Griffin!

  • bike

    I think Blake’s dunks are overrated. He’s 6’10”—admittedly an athletic freak for that height—but at some point height seems to create too much of an advantage. Seems like the best dunkers are guys 6’6” and less in height. If you adjusted Blake’s height down to 6’4” there is no way in hell he would be nearly as spectacular a dunker as Westbrook. Again, dunk beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    cosign bike

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    The Reignman would have dunked over the KIA and busted out it’s windshield with his follow-thru.

  • http://slamonline.com 1982

    Kemp was better. I’m aware that if you watch it now, it’s like watching a different era of basketball. But be aware that it’s like saying you youtubed Magic and then saying you think Deron Williams is better. They’re both PG’s, but played differently, not to mention how Kemp led his team to wins. Blake has yet to lead anything to anything. Oh and @bike, for what it’s worth, Kemp was 6’10″ too. Just skinnier so he looked smaller (at least on the Sonics). Also, I saw GP last Tuesday where I work. Alot of commotion was heard from people yelling and screaming, so I walked over to see and they were yelling “the Glove!” He’s still in pretty good shape (as in not like Run TMC). His entourage did more talking than him, he just smiled sheepishly at the people going nuts over him.

  • EJ

    Blake’s dunk on Perkins is better than any dunk Kemp ever did. I don’t care if he didn’t bend the rim, the way he went over Perk is inhuman.

  • http://www.slamonline.com TADOne

    I’m riding with Kemp and all his kids on this one.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    Co-sign TADOne…


    Ej. Check yourself before…

  • SikhWitIt

    Kemp…and it’s really not that close.

  • alexrows

    Kemp still is the best dunking big man ever. I don’t think BG can take off like SK from the free throw line. I think he’s strictly a 2 foot take-off type dunker. Kemp was definitely more versatile from that aspect. also – like McDyess before him – BG always seems like he’s one dunk away from another popped knee cap. He always jumps very hard, almost as high as he can to accomplish his power dunks. Kemp never tried to jump as high as he could – although as a rookie he did hit his head on the rim against Sacramento – and he still dunked on anything that stood in his way, and never had knee problems. Kemp is still the master. you need to compare BG with ‘Dice, Amar’e and K-Mart. all supreme 2 legs jumpers, also notorious for knee failures (just like BG)
    ps: westbrook is really sick. but you need to compare him to Stevie Franchise

  • SikhWitIt

    Kemp put so much more sauce on his dunks too. Blake is an athletic TIm Duncan.

  • SikhWitIt

    Kemp put so much more sauce on his dunks. Pointing at Alton Lister after he dunked on him, tea bagging Rodman, yelling, dancing, etc. Blake is an athletic Tim Duncan.

  • DukeFromDeep

    I saw Kemp in his prime and I’m telling you, Blake is better! Kemp was insane, but I still give it to BG.

  • http://caseyvaughn.com AlbertBarr

    I agree with AllenP only because Westbrook is the nastiest dunker in the game right now when it comes to sheer unadulterated power and viciousness. The backboard is swayin when he jams it home.

  • xx_JOMMOMA_xx

    is that TRACY MORGAN LOL

    hey shawn was greatest dunker ever tied with the dr. and nique
    and he can make babies like nobodys momma

  • xx_JOMMOMA_xx

    so tired of people jumping on bandwagons
    where were ya’ll when blake griffin show was killin em in the big 12
    u didnt even know who he was
    just like mike when we used to lose to zeke n bad boys every year
    finally we win and u all love michael
    as soon as u took off your pistons and lakers jersey

  • BBaller

    LoL the front end doesn’t count….Kemp’s baseline, windmill tomahawk is still the best dunk ive seen in a game. i can’t remember who it was against,such a long time ago.And the harold miner like double pump reverse from the top of the key against NYC.

  • http://slamonline.com Brion

    Just saw this article, it restored my faith in the comment section that everyone agrees Kemp was better. He was the man plain and simple. His reverse down the lane against the Knicks ( forgot dudes name…skywalker something…dude with kid and play haircut)was one of the best dunks ever. worth youtubing.

  • http://www.nesn.com/2012/02/kobe-bryant-says-hes-better-than-michael-jordan-second-to-wilt-chamberlain-as-best-nba-player-ever-v.html shutup

    darvin ham

  • SikhWitIt

    Co-sign alexrows, good breakdown

  • http://slamonline.com Brion


  • str8 from samoa

    shawn kemp is a better dunker than blake. yall better do ur homework

  • http://sonicsgate.org Sonicsgate

    Watch this clip and tell me Blake has ever come close to this level of power and game-changing swagger:


  • http://sonicsgate.org Sonicsgate

    Just youtube any Kemp Sonics highlight mix. It’s clear Blake is more of a graceful finesse dunker and not the vicious, violent beast that The Reign Man was.


  • jake

    The lister blister!

  • ripslam

    He’s right. Blake gets up, but the Reign Man was so much more vicious with his slams, as well as acrobatic. He would pull off reverse windmills on the baseline, as opposed to just jumping up and yamming on people. Blake is filthy, but he doesn’t compare to Kemp.

  • B$B

    Breaking News!!!! Charles Barkley likes cake.

  • http://www.facebook.com/joe.l.brewer3 BlackPhantom

    Hell, Prime Scottie Pippen’s dunks are a little nastier then Blake’s…

  • http://slamonline.com tealish

    not even close

  • logues

    PalmSquad: kemp had a 48 inch vertical? where are u getting this information? are u an idiot? if he’s 6’10 and has a 48 inch vertical that would mean he would be able to get his head 10 inches above the rim when he dunks… something noone has ever done, and i dont think i’ve ever seen kemp get his head at rim level on his dunks

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Blake is the best in-game dunker today. Hands down. But Reign Man… Reign Man was nasty. He was something else. He’s right about the “slap-in dunks” and I like that Kemp wanted to tear the rim down. But Blake’s “slap-in dunks” are some of the nastiest things we’ve seen all decade.

  • logues

    i guess this argument calls for a special dunk issue SLAM?

  • toinefan88

    blake not hanging on the rim is on purpose, it looks crazy when he spikes it in on ppl.

  • Just Sayin

    I think Kemp is right. That dude attacked the basket with reckless abandon, like it killed his fam or something.

  • http://Slamonline.com Mars

    OK, first off, History repeats itself in this instance. The original “Lob City” was GP to the Reign-man. Kemp was and will always be one of the nastiest dunkers ever. 6’10 with a 40+ vert…yeah ridiculousness. Blake is a beast in his own right but it been done before, just ya’ll young’ns don’t know. Bet ya’ll don’t know who Chocolate Thunder is either. Kemp was raw! Bring back the kamikazes Reebok.

  • thecomputerdude

    Kemp has aged hard. I have to agree, Kemp was the business before he lost his leaping ability. Give Blake some time. I would like to see what he is able to put together for the next 10 yrs or so.

  • IamYOU

    Why does Kemp look like Tracy Morgan now??

  • http://www.nesn.com/2012/02/kobe-bryant-says-hes-better-than-michael-jordan-second-to-wilt-chamberlain-as-best-nba-player-ever-v.html shutup

    Also rules have changed to prevent hanging on the rim, since Shaq was tearing em down the league doesnt like to see the rim crack, that could be part of it too, but Kemp dunked it harder Blake has more flight on his dunks. Who has the highest vert all time in the league? Darvin Ham had crazy hops, but thats all he had, except for a huge head and not in the sense of ego, dude had a dome on a dome

  • EJ

    What Kemp dunk is better than Blake on Perk?


    ^^^ …Down the lane reverse double pump on the Knix & reverse double pump one handed And 1 finish on some centre who will remain anonymous till this day. Both dunks off 2 feet. The rodman dunk doesnt even count COZ DAT $HIT WAS JUST TOO EASY. :-)



  • Justin G.

    I’m shocked that 99% of the posters said Kemp. I completely agree but it’s still a shock nonetheless. Kemp was just fierce

  • http://www.andywhitby.com Andy Whitby

    Kemp was without a doubt a much more insane dunker – go on YouTube and look up any of his career highlight videos – some of things he was doing was straight NBA-jam-esque – just crazy. Blake is nice, but right now only truly has 2 dunks that if he retired right now people would remember – he is of course very early in this career – so lets have this chat in 10 years.

  • alexrows

    @PalmSquad: the 48″ is pretty accurate imo since they do measure vertical jumps at the pre draft combine. and Kemp’s vert was 40″ and you have to take into account that’s off 2 legs and pretty much everyone jumps 4 inches better at their best since there isn’t anything special about that combine to get their juices flowing so players get personal bests or even come close. and I don’t think there was another big to get to 40″ in the predraft combine. and SK was also a great leaper of one foot so you could argue that it’s not a stretch for him to jump 48″ at his best (I read a long time ago during the 90′s that he had a 44″ of 2 legs and 49″ off one). Blake’s very good off two legs – probably also around 44″ – but I doubt he’s better taking off two. but Kemp was a little longer so he didn’t always have to jump 40″ in order to throw it down on somebody. as far as bodytype Kemp was like a combination of KD and BG, not as long and skinny as KD, and not as big as BG – somewhere in the middle.
    Also Kemp used to dunk on the best shotblockers in the history of Basketball. Olajuwon, Mourning, Mutombo, Robinson, just to name a few. And those guys used to challenge all his dunks, not like today’s average centers who just get out of BG’s way. You say he dunked on Mozgov and Perkins? they barely lifted their arms and tried to stop him. BG didn’t even ran them over. instead he looked as if he just hit a wall and that’s why he went up so high. Kemp was running over the guys who tried to defend like Perk and Moz. Remember Lister? I bet he still has nightmares to this day about that dunk. there’s also another white dude from Sacramento in Kemp’s highlights that tries the Mozgov defense and gets run over while Kemp completes a dunk – not a throw in. that right there shows that BG isn’t anywhere near as strong as the reignman. go check youtube and watch Kemp throw down a left handed dunk over Alonzo, and then a monster alley-oop on his had, during the same game. and both times Zo challenged his dunks. also there’s another game where he throws down 2 dunks on Deke while being challenged. there’s really only one guy these days in the league that BG has to dunk on – and dunk on really bad – in order to start being mentioned in the same category as SK. and that’s Howard – a guy who came close to being on the Westbrook poster at the ASG, only he didn’t want to have any of that (the Kobe dunk during his rookie season was priceless but that doesn’t count since he wasn’t the talk of the league back then and only an average defender)

  • bobbyD

    Good to see all the love for Kemp.

  • Tuomas

    Griffin might be a more explosive two-footed leaper. That is pretty much the only thing that can be given to him. Nothing more. There has never been a big man with the combination of athleticism, power, style and swagger that Kemp had. This debate is not even close.

  • Yesse

    I think Blake has more hangtime than him.

  • kev

    damn shawn woke up and had a tall glass of hatorade that morning

  • http://www.andywhitby.com Andy Whitby

    Antonio macdyess > bg, even a young stat has some better dunks. Bg has had some great dunks but he’s not an all time great yet

  • EJ

    Kemp’s dunks are great, he’s more ferocious than Blake, but I’ll take Blake over Kemp. He’s only 2 years into his career and he’s stronger than Kemp. Sure Kemp “bends the rim”, but Griffin powers thru defenders when they’re trying to push him away. I don’t think there’s anybody with as much hops and strength combined as Blake.

  • alexrows

    the reason why Chuck Norris never played in the NBA is coz he feared he’d get dunked on by the Reignman

  • EJ

    *I mean I think Blake has the best combination of strength, hops and agility. Ever.

  • JP7

    Kemp is the best in game dunker of all time, you should know that by now man like holy f**k

  • alexrows

    how come they don’t compare BG to Stromile Swift?

  • JP7

    Stromile Swift!? Hahaha what about him??

  • alexrows

    well Stro had mad hops and he did some serious dunks back in his nba days. now if he played in the NBA the way he plays in China then he would probably be in the conversation. but still the guy could dunk on anybody. there was also a guy who could have been in this conversation had he played in the NBA – Conrad McRae aka McNasty. he killed everyone in Europe back in the 90′s. 6-9, 230 power dunker, doing in game windmills. you need to look him up on youtube. he was the only reason I watched European ball back then (and Dominique playing for a couple seasons)

  • burnt_chicken

    lots of people here need to get them some Nique. I bet all the “hands down all time best” chatter would get real quiet real fast for those on the Kemp OR Blake side. Word to David Thompson, the Doctor, and Wilt.

  • smoove

    agreed, he did more moves in the air, blake definitely jumps higher tho

  • http://www.nba.com/history/allstar/injury_replacements.html dfrance21

    Left this thread with about 30 comments yesterday and I’m surprised this is so heavily in favor of Kemp. Not that I disagree but I thought Blake would get more love. What I do disagree with is the notion that always dunking hard somehow makes him a better dunker. That seems to be the main argument.

  • Just Sayin

    @alexrows somewhere in that block of text, you said “Blake is better taking off two legs but I doubt he’s better taking off two.” <—- ish dont make sense brah

  • APHX10

    SHAWN “REIGN MAN” KEMP!! The pain those basketball rings would feel if they had feelings. First jersey I ever bought because what I saw that God of Thunderous Dunks do.

  • Omar

    Shawn Kemp!!!

  • http://www.slamonline.com TADOne

    I will even take this convo a step further and say Kemp and Payton were the best PG/PF duo ever….outside of Stockton/Malone.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Whoa, now that’s a debate to have.
    We’d have to look at quality duos. Decide if we’re going to list Bird as a power forward or small forward.
    Can’t forget about Barkely and KJ too.
    Or Duncan and Parker.
    Billups and Garnett.
    Did Oscar Robertson play with Bob Petit for a while?
    Good discussion to have.

  • logues

    Billups and Garnett?! haha cmon son

  • Tuomas

    Dear Slam, thanks for not fixing the issues with the comments section. This problem has only persisted for something like 5-6 years now.

  • http://www.nba.com/history/allstar/injury_replacements.html dfrance21

    How about Stephon and Garnett? If Steph didn’t skip town. lol

  • alexrows

    @Just Sayin: thanks for pointing that out. I meant that I doubted he’s as good jumping off one leg as he’s jumping off two. In fact I don’t remember seeing him do to many dunks off one. he just did one in the ASG and he barely dunked it with 2 hands after taking it coast to coast. now try and compare that to Kemp’s monster dunk on “Budha” after dribbling the length of the court against the Lakers in ’94

  • barnabusb

    Vince was the best in-game dunker of all time. Then I’d have to give a slight edge to Nique. Then Kemp.

  • Justin G.

    No way that is the real AllenP if he can’t decide whether Bird was a SF or PF or listing Billups and Garnett as a possibility

  • Mooney10

    BG is a thug, no question, I just feel like its always the same dunk, still impressive but the same, unless you take into account the one he pulled ont he knicks last year at least he threw in a spin move before he took off. Shawn Kemp had so many different dunks in traffic and was a lot more flexible and agile in the air. Check out his dunks in on the Dream Team 2, unreal! BG always jumps off two feet he never crosses and then takes off on 1 foot like shwan did, plus look at the dunk contest comparison’s of the two, BG get air and has power but there is no grace in his dunks, no flare there just plane hard dunks, still sick though. But to compare them as dunkers we have to wait until BG gets a few more years under his belt of crammin for now, Shawn is still the best big man dunker, we gotta ask Gary Payton this question bias aside.