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Thursday, August 16th, 2012 at 11:54 am  |  185 responses

Yao Ming Filming Anti-Poaching Documentary in Kenya (VIDEO)

The big man helps raise awareness.

Retired NBA center Yao Ming has traveled to Kenya to film a documentary, titled “The End of the Wild”. The documentary highlights and raises awareness to the near-extinct populations of rhinos and elephants in the country due to poaching. More details from this fascinating story, via CapitalFM.Co: “Yao’s first ever visit to Kenya is a meaningful one, as it will enlist his support in taking the anti-poaching message to his Chinese homeland, where Ivory is a prized commodity. Yao arrived in Kenya on Friday, August 10, and has so far visited Ol Pejeta in addition to having talks with scientists and conservationists, including Daphne Sheldrick of The David Sheldrick Wildlife Trust, who are actively involved in protecting the endangered species. China is the world’s most prominent destination for rhino horn and ivory, with projections suggesting there will be an added 250 million middle class consumers over the next 10-15 years—making this campaign all the more crucial to preserve wildlife. It is not Yao’s first attempt to protect elephants. Increasing populations of rhino and elephant between 1989 and 2007 have started dwindling dramatically due to an escalation of poaching activities. Yao’s feature-length documentary hopes to underscore the beauty and economic importance of wildlife tourism, and highlight the extant of the poaching crisis.”

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  • LA Huey

    Elephants suck but I like rhinos. Good job, Yao.

  • http://slamonline.com LLC#12

    The league should show this to the Lakers, poaching the NBA’s best bigs since 1947! Nah, well done to Yao, it’s great when people use their positions of influence to raise awareness.

  • http://www.slamonline.com spit hot fiyah

    that was dope

  • bike

    I wish he would educate his own country about their endless search for stuff that makes them horny. Rhino horns and black bear gall bladders are two examples of animal products that chinese seek as aphrodisiacs and it perpetuates poaching worldwide.

  • Kid Dynamite

    Shout out to Yao, the poaching is outta control in these parts and it’s great to see Yao take a stand against it….

  • James aka…

    Good on him. Far too many people fail to use their positions in society to do genuine uncontroversial good.

    Another useful thing to do would be to tackle the grotesque shark finning that is practiced to produce a crappy broth known as shark-fin soup. Its hard though, if you challenge entrenched power in any nation, you get a LOT of flack. Ask anyone who opposed the Iraq war 10 years ago, before it started. In a free society you get demagogued and shat upon power people who seek to comfort the already comfortable. For Yao in a society where murder trials end in mere minutes, and where political oppenents are marginalized or jailed, attacking the status quo is dangerous. I would hope he would have the courage to tackle the problem headlong in his own backyard, but I wouldn’t complain if he chose not to. If he defended the practice of finning though, that would be outright hypocrisy.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    @ James: The United States is #1 in the world for incarceration per capita (also #1 in total prisoner population). China is 121st. You tell me which one is the police state. You tell me which one is the “free society.”
    Okay, I will admit that if you’re a rich white male in America you do have infinite freedom, but besides them…

  • LA Huey

    Teddy, and that’s without counting the millions on probabtion!!!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    Good on Yao, good guy. Poaching is horrible, even worse is the fact that animals are going extinct. But I remember when china attacked the Great Barrier Reef with an oil tankard. That ecosystem is still dying.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    I don’t trust this….My third eye is suspicious of this.

  • James aka…

    Half of criminals in the US are there for non-violent drug crimes which is a travesty, but China executes 3-10 thousand people every year, which a far more serious breatch of liberty in anyones book. When comparing from an objective standpoint, its not close. We as citizens of a country have more responsibility to criticize the government we control, or are subject to, but if we’re doing a side by side comparison, its important not to omit inconvenient facts.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    bike you’re a dumb@ss. Of course poaching is completely wrong (big ups to Yao), but do you eat meat? Because the meat industry is the primary source of animal torture, cruelty, and slaughter in the world, and most of it happens in the West. Most of the factory farms (i.e. systematic torture) are in the West; most of the research experiments, testing of chemicals and corporate products, and vivisection done on animals happens in the West–there are about 100 million animals that murdered in research labs every year. These are the predominant forms of animal exploitation and cruelty, and they’re happening in the West, in your own backyard.
    The top 5 countries by meat consumption per capita are: 1. Luxembourg, 2. the US, 3. Australia, 4. New Zealand, and 5. Spain. All of them are white Western countries. So yeah, GTFO of here with that bullsh!t.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    James aka wins

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    @ Huey: Par0le and prob@tion, yep. There are more people on some sort of correctional supervision (prison, par0le, or prob@tion) in the US than there ever were in Stal!n’s gul@gs. There are also now more black men on correctional supervision than there were sl@ves in the 1800s. But… apparently the Sov!et Union was a police state and America is free! In the Soviet Union rich white guys weren’t free–they were jailed. In the US, rich white guys are infinitely free. So I guess that’s what defines a free society, lol.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    SLAM is not letting me comment…

  • LA Huey

    Luxembourg?!?! How did they beat us? We gotta get our gold medal back on this one, guys. It’s got be a hot one here in Seattle this weekend, gonna go crash some BBQs.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    @ James: I’m not doing a side-by-side comparison because anyone who thinks China or any Global South nation is comparable in atrocities to imperialist Anglo-European states is completely brainwashed. That is a useless discussion. The US executes children and the mentally ill, and since 1970 has executed over 1000 people. Rick Perry alone has murdered 200-300 people as governor of Texas.
    Not only that, but the US massacres people in OTHER countries as well, as it is directly or indirectly responsible for millions of deaths in Africa and the Arab world over the past 2 decades alone. That’s definitely more humane than executing people, isn’t it?
    First of all, while I’m against the death penalty, I don’t buy the “ten thousand executed per year” garbage that Western “humanitarian” organizations, which admit not having access to China’s records, invent. Second of all, the entire American conception of liberty is nothing but a farce.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    LOL @ Huey. I know you’re joking but the answer is because Luxembourg is a tiny @ss white nation… They don’t have hungry minorities, so each individual can buy all the meat they want.
    And yup, par0le and prob@tion. There are more people on some sort of correct!onal superv!sion (pr!son, par0le, or prob@tion) in the US than there ever were in Stal!n’s gul@gs. There are also now more black men on correct!onal superv!sion than there were sl@ves in the 1800s. But… apparently the Sov!et Union was a police state and America is free! In the Soviet Union rich white guys weren’t free–they were jailed. In the US, rich white guys are infinitely free. So I guess that’s what defines a free society, lol.
    (sry for all the d@mn exclamation points and sh!t, just being careful cuz SL@M won’t let me post this comment…)

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    And it worked! =)

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    @ James: However I do agree with the sentiment that living in the West, we’re responsible for criticizing the governments here, first and foremost.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    Teddy aren’t u Canadian? Wtf…

  • James aka…

    The use of absolute numbers is again misleading. The racial tilt of the correctional system is an abomination, but it’s not the same as slavery, and its not directly related (one could make the arugment that internal problems in inner city communities are linked over generations but you’re not making that argument here). Also, Stalin’s gulags and the north american prison system aren’t comparable any more than Hitler’s concentration camps. The absolute population in both is not a point of comparison since most people who were in these torture factories died of the conditions. So yes, the USSR was an abominable (sp?) police state, and the US is not, however crummy things may be there right now. You would have to live in a police state to appreciate the difference, but as an illustration consider the following: In a legitmate police state, someone would be tracking your IP right now or informing on you directly for the commentary you made on here, as opposed to merely disagreeing. you may argue that since the Bush administration, all communications are intercepted, but an email churning through a database with billions of other pieces of content is not the same thing as a knock on the door and a permanent trip to a labour camp. Measure your criticisms appropriately or you do damage to the real political causes you believe in. I have a similar world view as yours, and I appreciate your outrage at what you are critical of, but if you make a ridiculous comparison like the US versus Stalin’s Russia, or Contemporary China, expect to not be taken seriously.

    As an aside, in absolute animal suffering, there is no doubt that
    our factory farming system is the most horrific thing happening in the world today. If anyone has any doubt, go on youtube and watch what does happen in our slaughterhouses right now. I was horrified in Ethiopia where you often killed your food at home, but that happens to every piece of meat you eat, and the living conditions of animals here is often far worse (although in China it is not any better better in relative terms, just absolute: animals die there just as horribly, its just that their per capita consumption is much lower).

  • James aka…

    Human Rights watch, and Amnesty International are pretty credible organizations, so if you want to throw them out of the discussion, there can be little discussion of what happened to Iraqi Civilians after the US invasion. The execution numbers are imprecise because of the lack of access to data, but an internal activist like Ai Wei Wei would love to enlighten you on what happens in contemporary China. so yes 3000 per year is worse than 1000 over 3 decades, even if you reject out of hand credible international critics. If you want to discuss international criminality, I would agree with your contention of the horrors outside the nation, but other nations are also actors, so if the US is responsible for invading arab nations and selling arms to dictators, you have to also academically acknowledge that China shipped 10s of thousands of Machette’s to Rwanda leading up to that Genocide, or that it has systematically supressed and overtaken Tibet over the last 50 years. If you were to do a body count, I’m pretty certain US action over the past 50 years is the most egregious, but you don’t get away with being a pirate just because someone else is an emporer. As an activist, it’s a different story, you concentrate all your fire where it matters, but don’t do so pretending the rest of the world is full of angels just because you’re tackling your own devil.

  • bike

    Uh Teddy did you read the above at all? It’s about the illegal ivory and rhino horn trade in China. Do you even know what poachers are after when they kill animals? They kill elephants for their tusks and leave the rest to rot. They kill rhinos for the horns and leave the rest to rot. They kill black bears for the gall bladder and leave the rest to rot.
    So, eating meat and experimentation on live animals is somewhat irrelevant to the topic dude.

  • James aka…

    As for liberty in the US, there is too much focus on economic as opposed to political liberty, but its not the same as having the sex police look up your skirt in Iran, or being shelled by your own government in Syria. It’s fair to criticise western governments for their crimes. Its ludicrous to pretend we’re the only actors in the world and that everyone else is our subject or victim. We all have agency, and whatever we do with that matters. If you’re educating the world about what’s going on at home I salute you. If you say that Rick Perry = Joe Stalin, I’ll throw you a dollar because you’re streetcorner crazy.

  • James aka…

    Killing an animal to use part of its body is not really worse than killing it for it’s whole body. However, Methods matter, as does bio-diversity and the killings impact. It’s worse to kill something endangered and critical to an ecosystem because it destroys more than just the animal in question. To to kill a blue whale or a white rino is bad because we ultimately depend on ecosystems to survive, so we’re depriving animals of life and harming ourselves at the same time. Killing for animal protein in a painless way is much better. At the same time, you have to consider that if killing is wrong for sport when you have other sports to play, killing for food can also be up for debate since we have other ways to be fully supported nutritionally.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    @ James: The USSR had free education to the best of one’s ability, free healthcare, the right to a home, and the right to a job. It did have serious flaws but again, no Communist country is comparable to the United States. The notions of “totalitarianism” and “police states” are nothing but propaganda owing more to George Orwell’s novels than actual real life examples. They’re gross oversimplifications that only serve to justify the present system of imperialism-capitalism that the US employs.
    You’re of the belief that the US once had freedom–or that it just recently deteriorated into tyranny. This is nothing but nostalgia/romanticism. You’re conveniently forgetting that during the Soviet era, there existed something called Jim Crow in the US, with mass lynchings of black people to boot. And before that, there was outright chattel slavery. You also aren’t thinking about the atrocities committed by America’s founding fathers (and Europeans as a whole in the Americas), which aren’t comparable to anything anyone else has done in the past 500 years.
    When Columbus “discovered” what he thought was India, there were more people in the Americas than there were in Europe. In the span of a few hundred years, 98% of the indigenous population was wiped out. This is comparable to the Soviet Union and China how?
    Actually I’m glad you brought up Nazi Germany, because the only reason Westerners treat Hitler as the worst human being in history, is because he had the audacity to do to the Europeans what the Europeans themselves were doing for centuries to non-white peoples. That is why we use Hitler as the line in the sand when it comes to atrocities.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    James, you’re approaching the world not through an objective lens, which is what you claimed initially, but through a white lens, a lens of white supremacy. I.E., no matter what evidence I present to you, the default stance is that the US and Western Europe are superior to the rest of the world when it comes to human decency.
    Do you really want to talk about Iran now too? In the early 1900s, Iran was dominated by US and British imperial interests (i.e. oil) and in 1953, the CIA/MI6 overthrew Mohammed Mossdegh and installed the Shah. The Shah’s secret police, which abducted, tortured, and murdered thousands of civilians, was trained by the CIA.
    Fast forward to 1979, when the Iranians finally overthrew the US puppet in the Islamic Revolution. The US then funded and armed Saddam Hussein’s Iraq to invade Iran, then secretly sold arms to Iran to fund the illegal contra-war that was taking place against ANOTHER sovereign/anti-imperialist state in Nicaragua. No comparison whatsoever.
    We can talk about Afghanistan too, if you’d like.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Those darned white people and their meat eatin!
    .
    Huey, My pops was telling me he’s got 90 degrees out in Everett right now. Seattle-ites getting that summer they always ask for huh??

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    James, pay attention to what you’re doing. You’re approaching the world not through an objective lens, which is what you purported at first, but through a wh!te lens, specifically a lens of wh!te suprem@cy. I.E., no matter what evidence I present to you, the default stance is that the US and Western Europe are still superior to the rest of the world when it comes to human decency. Well, history and present day examples say otherwise.
    (and yes, HRW and Amnesty are, for the most part, a joke. Western “humanitarian” orgs are to neo-colonialism today what the missionaries were to imperialism yesterday.)

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    Why won’t SLAM let me comment 50% of the time?

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    James, pay attention to what you’re doing. You’re approaching the world not through an objective lens, which is what you purported at first, but through a wh!te lens, specifically a lens of wh!te suprem@cy. I.E., no matter what evidence I present to you, the default stance is that the US and Western Europe are still superior to the rest of the world when it comes to human decency. Well, history and present day examples say otherwise.
    (and yes, HRW and Amnesty are, for the most part, a joke. Western “humanitarian” orgs are to neo-colonial!sm today what the missionaries were to imperial!sm yesterday.)

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    James, this is what you’re doing. You’re approaching the world not through an objective lens, which is what you purported at first, but through a wh!te lens, specifically a lens of wh!te suprem@cy. I.E., no matter what evidence I present to you, the default stance is that the US and Western Europe are still superior to the rest of the world when it comes to human decency. Well, history and present day examples say otherwise.
    (and yes, HRW and Amnesty are, for the most part, a joke. Western “humanitarian” orgs are to neo-colonial!sm today what the missionaries were to imperial!sm yesterday.)

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    omg.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    I think SLAM bans all words containing “ism” at the end, lmao. (sry for the freaking quintuple post…)

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    Teddy you’re an idiot if you seriously are degrading how great the USA is compared to other countries. I didn’t read much of what you wrote because I find you annoying much like lakeshow but that’s what I’ve picked up.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    LOL. You didn’t read what I wrote because you probably haven’t read a book since “Green Eggs and Ham” in kindergarten. Might wanna pick one up every now and then… even Wikipedia–do something at least. There’s nothing sadder than a bl@ck kid taking up the mantle of wh!te American jingo!sm. Is there any sight sadder than that???

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    LOL. You didn’t read what I wrote because you probably haven’t read a book since “Green Eggs and Ham” in kindergarten. Might wanna pick one up every now and then… even Wikipedia, Google, sh!t. There’s nothing sadder than a bl@ck kid taking up the mantle of wh!te American jingo!sm. That doesn’t strike you as contradictory at all?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    Yeah Dr. Seuss was a hard read. Again, teddy aren’t you from Canada? Lol stop it man. You’re chasing the so called “conscious” label. F*** being conscious.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Teddy you really believe that Communist Russia and China were that good?
    I could agree with the Cuba argument you made, but when you start tossing around Russia and China, well that’s a different story.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    But, I did enjoy reading what you and James wrote. Good dissenting points crammed with interesting information. Carry on.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    You are really really dumb, and brainwashed. I give it 2 more posts before you start bragging about being in pre-med, lmao. (which is just general sciences… same as every other undergrad science student…). Goodbye now, Uncle Ruckus.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    @ Redd, not Allen. Sorry.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    But for real, best of luck getting into Med… I won’t let any internet contempt get in the way of real life, personal success. Good luck. I mean that.

  • LA Huey

    Yeah, Lake. You know how it is with Seattle-area folk. They swear it doesn’t rain as much as it does, complain about the lack of sun all year, when the sun does shine they trumpet how awesome it is to live here, and cry about how much worse our heat is (compared to the rest of the US) for the cumulative week of 90 degree whether we get a year. It’s comical.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Figured as much. LMAO.
    I’m moving back to Seattle(area) soon.
    Miss the place.
    LA is too much for me lol.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    I meant to say I hope you get in, not just good luck.
    @ Huey: If ur from Seattle, how come you’re a Warriors fan?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    Lol..Teddy why won’t you answer me? How you from Canada but calling me an uncle Ruckus? Because I don’t fake being conscious? I call it being human, caring about others is humane it’s not consciousness. Unlike you, I appreciate that USA doesn’t have open racism trickling from corporate down to government..unlike Canada where you live. Stop acting like you understand USA society kid.

  • LA Huey

    Ooooh! “You don’t get away with being a pirate just because someone else is an emperor.” I loved that line.

  • LA Huey

    Teddy, while you were spending all your time investigating the eating habits of white folk in some obscure European country, you missed the fact that Seattle doesn’t have a basketball team anymore (I’m kidding, of course). I aligned myself with the Warriors franchise until we get our team back. They’re on the West Coast so I can catch the games at a decent hour, historically suck too much for it to feel like bandwagoning, fun to watch (no defense = high scoring games), and they’re fanbase makes it fun to watch on television.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    LMAO @ Redd. No open racism? Why, because the president is black? In the first half of this year alone, there have been at least 120 extrajudicial killings of black people in the US–that means one lynching every 36 hours by the police or a smaller group of self-appointed vigilantes. No trial, no nothing.
    I’m not answering you because I don’t give a sh!t what you say about Canada. Actually I’ve lived in both Canada and the US–not that it makes a difference, because you only need to look at actual history and current events in order to “understand USA society.” I would never go around waving the flag of either country. And I really don’t care that you bash Canada, Canada is basically America-lite, except there’s free healthcare and the people actually believe in evolution. All the white supremacy is a little more covert here, but still present nonetheless. I’m no gambling man, but I’d wager I know more about the US than you know about Canada… also that I know more about Canada than you know about the US. Basically you’re just ignorant.
    Good luck with your… unconsciousness? LOL. You’re basically bragging on an internet forum about being ignorant. Yeah, I’m gonna go ahead and ignore you now.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    @ Huey: That makes sense. But you could have just taken easy way and bandwagoned with the Lakers… like Lakeshow did.

  • james aka…

    The USSR under stalin killed tens of millions of people, and last I checked, they were also white. Similarly they killed over a million afghans in the 1980′s in an imperial war that is called it’s vietnam. That name is apt because there was a great deal of imperialism involved in the venture, not to mention civilian death. Ukrainians who starved under Stalin’s rule would beg to differ with your inverted reality. I have friends who grew up under the iron curtain and have a much less glamorous view.

    As for Hitler, he is viewed uniquely in his evil because of Nazi Death camps, not because he attacked the rest of Europe. Stalin is viewed less for that reason maybe, same with Mao, even though they did the same things, so perhaps that could be viewed as a double standard. If you believe that the several million american victims of the last 50 years is worse than the several 10′s of millions of victims of the USSR, then there is no hope for you. This isn’t that hard. 10 murders is always worse than one. For chrissakes, Nikita Kruschev knew this, which is why he appologized for the crimes of Stalin after Stalin’s death. As for hunman rights organizations being denounced for their contribution to neo-colonialism, you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about. Neo-colonialism refers to the system of economic arrangements that have been errected in the post world war period that force unequal economies to compete, which advantages certain seectors in rich and poor economies, as well as political entanglements that have the same effect. HRW and Amnesty which frequently denounce the actions of western governments are not directly related to this in anyway. You can argue that some NGOs perform a function of entenching an economy of a third world nation in this way, say an aid agency, but someone who highlights the state crimes of say china’s judicial system is not one of those NGOs. No agency is flawless, but there is general agreements about the gigantic ammount of state sanction murdered. Dont get it twisted, especially since HRW and Amnesty are freely quoted by critics of imperialism when its convenient. You’re exhibiting the worst traits of post-structualist excess, namely highly selective inclusion of facts when it suits your argument and then exclusion when it no longer does.

    LA huey, thats a playing of a quote from Noam Chomsky, refering to a passage in St. Augustine’s City of God. Basically an emperor asks a pirate how dare he molests the ocean. The pirate responds by saying i molest a few ship and you call me a pirate, but you molest whole nations and you’re celebrated as emperor. As Chomsky explicitly points out though, that doesn’t excuse the Pirate, that just means that you have to recognize that organized power can be far more vicious than the average criminal element. Teddy needs to learn that his tu quoque argument her vis a vis china and the US won’t fly here, especially in regards to the civic responsibilities of Yao. My original statement herw was that if Yao is brave, he will criticise his own state, but that I understand the barriers to him are greater than they are for Teddy and I as Canadians, or most people on here as Americans to criticise their own governments.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    @ James: Who funds these so-called “non-governmental organizations” like Amnesty and HRW? Oh yeah, American corporations and rich white men like George Soros–that’s so FREE! (also Saudi Arabia apparently)
    I know it’s hard for you to believe, but the world is not balanced in power. If Yao is brave, he would outright condemn US/Western imperialism, which is THE #1 oppressor of every country in the world. We live in a world of white Western hegemony. Your idea of a dissident is someone like Ai WeiWei, who is a complete f*cking colonial tool–a brilliant architect of course–but someone with very elementary political understanding. You are not a dissident when your biggest supporters are the imperialist countries, i.e. those with the most wealth and power in the world. Next you’re going to tell me Liu Xiaobo will be China’s savior.
    As for Tibet, China has not “oppressed Tibet for the last 50 years.” Prior to the Communist intervention in the 1950s, the vast majority of Tibetans were feudal serfs. The Dalai Lama owned hundreds of thousands of slaves, and any serfs caught trying to escape were given corporal punishment–usually a severed limb. Read Michael Parenti’s “The Tibetan Myth.”
    Again, you’re talking in some nonsensical, idealistic European “universalism” whereby every country is equal and the same. They are not. We live in a white power structure and so does the rest of the world, under the biggest empire in history, the United States.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    I guess you don’t understand open racism..that means that if a person calls me the N word I’ll be protected, the presidents don’t call Muslims terrorists, teachers don’t discriminate openly, etc. again you’re a Canadian who called me uncle ruckus..lol wtf? You’re a lame, acting like Huey Newton behind a screen, when really again America is the best country. Yes our politics stink, capitalism is a killer, and more but we have better rights than anywhere. Unlike Canada who’s leader openly bashed Muslims. You don’t know much clearly and just want to stand out. I’m actually working to help people directly around the world, all you do is type.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    James, do you really want to talk about Afghanistan? The US is practically solely responsible for the destruction of every progressive step made by Afghanistan in the past Century. The US funded Afghan mujahideen (most of them were warlords or chauvinist Sunni-extremists, with elements that became the Taliban and Al Qaeda) six months before the Soviet Union decided to intervene. The Soviet Union only intervened because the progressive Afghan government, the PDPA, requested them too–because the US was trying to overthrow them using Afghan proxies (not just Afghans, but also imported Saudi extremists).
    The Soviets did commit atrocities, as happens in all wars; what you need to ask yourself is which side was progressive? The US stood by the reactionary oppressive side, as usual, while the Soviets backed the progressives.
    Is that the same as the US murdering 4 million people in Vietnam and Cambodia, and bombing Vietnamese women and children with napalm?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0Ve5j7w26I Max

    Just click my name..

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    Wow Redd, are you seriously this stupid or are you just being satirical? That’s a rhetorical question… you probably really are this stupid. I’m glad you mentioned Huey Newton next to my name though–I do love Huey. Either way, this is the last comment in which I bother with you. Ruckus.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Does anyone like Teddy?
    He’s like Rachel Madcow and Bill Mauer combined with Micheal Moore.
    Just shut up. LOL.
    JP’n dude, do you mang.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    @ James: sorry for cussing in my previous comment, this is actually a good discussion so I don’t want to get you mixed up with that other annoying pest.
    On the subject of the Ukranian famine, it was definitely a failure on the part of the regional government. However, there are letters Stalin wrote to the regional leader in Ukraine (sorry I can’t remember his name) during the crisis that prove he wasn’t directly responsible, i.e. Stalin was not some madman trying to kill Ukranians for fun.
    I will try to find the exact quotes later if you want…
    And no, Hitler is NOT the worst human being in history just because he killed 6 million Jews–but because the Jews that he killed were WHITE, NOT African/Asian/Latin American/Native. Of course he was evil, and despicable, etc. That’s not the point I’m trying to argue.
    It doesn’t strike you as odd that the West only found it necessary to coin the term “genocide” after the Nazi Holocaust?
    After WWII, the US/Europe actually lobbied to change the UN’s definition of genocide, because they knew that that was what they’d been doing to other people… and didn’t want to be accused of it. It’s the most egregious hypocrisy imaginable.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    LOL, since when did Mao and Stalin do the same things as Hitler? Again, this is the so-called “totalitarian” myth. Communism and fascism are apparently the same thing now, while bourgeois capitalist-imperialism is the standard on which we base democracy and freedom.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    Goddammit, I always feel guilty after cussing out Redd. I don’t know why… Sorry Redd. and you’re totally right about Canada’s leader. Stephen Harper is a sack of poo.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    ..this dude really thinks he’s Huey on a message board. You’re an idiot, you talk but don’t have any actions. Im 20 but already doing more than you ever will in your lifetime. You with your free healthcare are complaining about the “struggle” which you’ve never seen. Cats is wild trying to fit in. Shut up and sit down, consciousness is wack, it’s about being a good being.

  • http://slamonline.com Chubachuchi

    @Teddy the world knows (especially non whites) that the West have oppressed, killed, and exploited everybody but you shouldn’t let you’re hate for the “rich white males” negate the equal amount of oppression that communism and non western atrocities have given. You have to put it in perspective and think about how you look when you seem to be justifying the TENS OF MILLIONS communist countries have slaughtered and intimidated because Uncle Sam and his Western buddies did worse. Wrong is wrong. Mass slaughter of meat giving animals is wrong. Mass killing of endangered species for aphrodisiacs in China is wrong. Period. Do you happen to have friends who’s parents/grandparents grew up in Russia/Soviet bloc countries? You know what they have relatives who’ve gone missing and they didn’t like it. Stalinist communism in 2012, is obviously known to be full of flaws, China realized a while ago and that’s why they adopted a capitalist economic system. China by the way if you’ve been following the news have been bullying their way in gas rich Spratlys islands in the SE Asia, against the weaker countries there, as well as some Japanese claims islands to their west. This doesn’t look good in 2012 lol, imperialism is dead. I can tell you’re an intelligent person with a lot of insight but please don’t disregard non western injustices. Wrong is wrong.

    PS. Don’t do Orwell like that he didn’t invent those terms he popularized it. And history did justify his fears.

  • http://slamonline.com Chubachuchi

    ^Sh*tload of typos sorry.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    Hmmm, first of all you don’t know anything about any of us outside of SLAM, so how do you know what I or anyone else does? Who is trying to fit in with whom here, you’re the one touting “USA #1!!!” like some White Pride lunatic. You fit right in with most Americans, and Canadians for that matter too.
    Do you even know what the word consciousness means? Are you talking about a movement in hip-hop or something, like Mos Def and Talib Kweli, because consciousness is a real word… saying consciousness is wack is like saying intelligence is wack. The alternative is unconsciousness and stupidity… So, I mean, whatever floats your boat.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-theBear

    Redd: Ummm, first of all you don’t know me or anyone else here outside of SLAM, so you obviously don’t know what I do. I wasn’t talking about what I do or don’t do either–you’re the one bragging about your supposed “actions,” like you’ve just won the Nobel Prize at 20. Who’s the one talking again? — That’s like the odd commenter who says we all suck at basketball because we chat on SLAM. You better rethink your logic there, big guy.
    And who is trying to fit in with whom here? You’re the one chanting “USA #1!” like some White Pride lunatic. But that kind of jingoism is right in line with most Americans and Canadians, so… you fit in just fine. Good job. Good effort.

  • Allenp

    If wrong was wrong I would have gotten some reparations.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    LMFAO did you think that being thankful for being blessed made me a redneck? Cause of so you’re a bigger idiot than I already pegged you as. Last I checked I didn’t have 3rd world problems. You think people who do have 3rd world issues would not appreciate having what they have? I was born in a village, I know the struggle thus I’m thankful. Now, stfu and quit trying to act like you do something because I’m sure you don’t. Even if you do, stop you’re not helping anyone by being a douche who is a wanna be Huey on the Internet.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    no I know you’re not white obviously. Sounds like you wish you were, though.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    @ Chubachichu: thx for the comment, I’ll get back to you in a bit. I’m gonna watch a movie now, haha.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    @ Allen: What specifically don’t you agree with me on about the Soviet Union and China? Can you be more specific?
    Whatever faults the Soviet Union had, I can’t overlook the contributions they made–of historical proportion–to advancing anti-imperialism and the workers’ cause. That’s basically my position. Again, whatever their faults, those things I mentioned previously are all true–their citizens did have basic human necessities guaranteed.
    Lately I find myself constantly having to defend Stalin, which is odd because I never used to have an opinion on Stalin one way or the other… But I just want to counter the propaganda/slander against him and the Soviet Union.
    I’m glad you agree on Cuba. But without the Soviets there would be no Cuba. They provided invaluable aid to countries who were isolated from the world’s biggest economies (i.e. the West) and arms to those in Asia/Africa/Latin America being bullied by the biggest militaries of the world.

  • http://gmail.com z

    @teddy the bear just wanna apologize for you having to deal with these american morons all alone.just know that youve got one brotha from anotha motha in me comrade! @redd, you’re a disgrace to blacks. @james aka you raise good points, ultimately i side with teddy the bear because imo the 21st century must be a century of global communism, as marx himself envisioned it. Thats just my opinion, that the environment and the concept of communism dovetail. Back to teddy the bear i’ve been doing some reevaluations of stalin lately (and more broadly, the value of “enlightened despots”–what got me on that was toussaint’s iron fist over san domingo from 1796-1801) and come to similar conclusions as you, though i gotta emphasize that uncle joe was not as good for communism as lenin/trotsky woulda been!

  • http://gmail.com z

    @allenp im a big fan of cuba and fidel in particular. You should look up CLR james’ book The black Jacobins for a good read on carribean history (it’s basically the story of haiti’s revolution, though i dont presume to know how well versed with that particular epoch you already are–maybe you should be recommending reading material to me!). I seriously cant get over how dumb redd is. Wow

  • http://nba.com EJ

    @Teddy: I’m curious to know what events make the 20th century US worse/as bad, or whatever your view is, than the 20th century Russia in your mind?

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Haha props z, I appreciate that very much comrade. Right back at you, bro.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    LMFAO dude is serious, wanna be black panther, Canadian idiotic lame. And you sound old, and I’d laugh if you’re white. Your life sounds pathetic, to sit around trying to find blame rather then trying to make change and try to help people with less. Instead you troll on a basketball blog trying to act smart when you’re an idiot.

  • Purveyor of fine things

    basketball

  • Loaf

    real intersting read and i have learnt a few things…. though Teddy you make me feel bad for being a white male? that shouldn’t be right? lol

  • LA Huey

    People are tossing around my namesake’s namesake like it’s nothing. I’m getting sensitive about it. Y’all need to quit.

  • James Aka…

    First of all, Amnesty international and HRW are donor supported, by people like me. I’ve been a member of Amnesty international, though never HRW. They state their agenda, and they publish their donor lists. They criticise behaviours in all states as you can clearly see on their websites. For example, there is a link on HRW website right now that celebrates the halting of a texas execution. The portrait you’re portraying of some mass global conspiracy controlling these organizations is without merit and without evidence, which is why you offered some vague notion about George Soros and “corporations”. Unless you can A show that a donor is driving the agenda of the organization and that B either of your above stated donors are such donors, your case holds no water. Furthemore, George Soros was and is one of the most prominent critics of the US invasion of Iraq at the Billionair level. He has a dubious career as a currency manipulator, but his chartable leanings are much more to your liking then you probably realize. Read his bio, find out who he is and what he stands for before using his name as an epithet.

    As for the Soviety Union and the Ukrainian famine, it wasn’t that the famine was caused by Ukraine, it was that Stalin deliberately shipped crops out of the Ukraine to keeep the central part of the USSR, namely Russia, productive and famine free, at the expense of the Ukrainian people. It was a direct transfer of resources from a nation that was under the impierial yoke of the Russian centred USSR. There is a reason that the soviet states all broke away after disolution, which is related to russian imperialism stretching back over the last several centuries. The Russian takeover of Siberian territory for example looks exactly like the Anglo American push in North America (the fench were qualitatively better than the English, and the English better than the American rebels that broke away, vis a vis native populations). The USSR was primarily about Russian power, not about advancing workers rights. Whatever validity there is to Marxist theory and Marxist critiques of capitalism (I believe there is a great deal), it is undeniable that the activities of the Soviet Union, from cooperating with Hitler in carving up Poland, to stealing from starving people in the Ukraine, to the Gulag, to the Invasion of Afghanistan, are the same imperial building behaviour you correctly lambast coming from other european and north american power. In fact, Russian interference and imperialism has continued after the fall of communism, as most brutally exemplified by the levelling of Grozny more than a decade ago.

    It’s not that your critique of say US power or a history of Western European imperialism is wrong, its that you’re romanticising the behaviour of other violent empires solely on their position relative to the US as rivals. Again, there is a reason Krushchev’s denounciation of Stalinism was such an amazing thing. There was recognition by a high level member of the power structure to the damage that was done by Stalin. I would argue that after that point, the Soviet Union was much less damaging and imperialistic on the world stage than the US, but that’s not to say that it did no harm to others.

    As for China, there was a similar break after Deng Xiaping took over after Mao’s death. The entire economic project of Mao, which had seen the most dramatic and disasterous agricultural policies yet pursued (although the ticking bomb of our global machine and chemical fertilizer regime will likely dwarf it), resulting in a decade with 10′s of millions of deaths of ordinary chinese farmers. The decision to on a whole scale change crops based on an imperious decree from Beijing during the Great Leap Forward was at least criminally stupid, and considering that during this time, Mao was using grain to trade for weapons while his people starved shows that it was also malicious. Its harder to assess responsibility for the fiasco because its possible that people would have starved on a large scale anyway, but there is a huge component of state directed failure here. As for the great cultural revolution, as would be expected in a revolution, the winners killed and committed war crimes in a nation of then 400 million people on a similar scale as any revolution. Some people pin 50 million deaths on Mao. Again its hard to assess blame since so many were from the second phase famine, but he was undeniably a great killer this century.

    As for Chinese imperialism abroad, it is confined more regionally than Russia and definitely less so than the US. however, it still happened and happens. Vietnam for example has basically been fighting for the last century from constant invasion from outsiders. We know about the US role, but China also tried to invade (and got its butt handed to it), and later on actually supported the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia directly in a strategy of bleeding the enemy (with tacit support from the US). The Khmer Rouge who tortured and maimed their own society to the tune of at least 150000 people (more than 2 million people died during this period in a 7 million person country, although the famine associated with most of the death was directly a result of nixon’s bombing campaign which the CIA estimated would cost a minimum of 500000 lives due to starvation). Obviously the case of Tibet is ongoing and speaks for itself. If you oppose Israel’s slow take over of the remaining palestinian territories, you should be able to see the parallel with the ethnic Han migration into Tibet. China of course was also victimized prior to Mao by western powers as well as most directly and brutally by Japan so it has been both trampled upon and has trampled on.

  • James Aka…

    Also, you’re wrong about the holocaust. Hitler targetted Communists first. They were the first people who went to the death chambers. Also Gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally and physically disabled. Jews were proportionally the largest victims of the civilian slaughter machine, and their political organization since has meant that we associate the Holocaust with the 5-6 million Jewish victims, but it was the largest organized act of brutality aimed at cilvilians anywhere at any time. You’re right about other acts of genocide leading up to it being ignored. For example, the germans actually perfected their death camp system in Africa before world war 2, and those victims are never acknoledged. The nazi’s themselves had learned this strategy of shipping and processing people directly from the Armenian genocide at the hands of the Ottoman empire during World War 1. Obviously the system of slavery and colonialism produced million plus death counts all over the world during the preceding 4 centuries leading up to the world wars. What was unique about the German Holocaust though was the targetting of purely civilian victims, the efficiency of the operation, its success over a very short period of time, and it’s scale. The other reason we know more about it is because there was a concious effort by both Soviet and Western governments to publicize just how awful it was. So to reductively say that we remember the holocaust only because its victims were primarely white is perhaps the most shockingly racist statement uttered on this websites forum. After, whites have suffered genocide before (armenians), and at the hands of none whites (ottoman turks, though you could argue that they are both caucasions), which implodes your argument from the get go. Also, given the collective european hatred of Jews up to that point, your statement is more than a little off base. Jews were seen as animals by many european nations. Germany was the worst offender, but the sociological othering of jews by the rest of europe, including mass killings, goes back at least as far as the crusades, when the jews of spain were driven out with the muslims.

  • James Aka…

    Lakeshow, Rachel Maddow has a Docterate of political science and is probably the most balanced talking head on TV, both stylistically (she doesn’t get hysterical labling politcal oppenents like Keith Olberman did, or most of the political right) and she’s not a blatant fabricater like Sean Hannity/O’Reilly/Coulter/Malkin/Limbaugh/Fox News staff not named Alan Colmes). Bill Maher says a lot of stupid things and a lot of smart things but his greatest crimes are in doing stand-up, because he just isn’t that funny most of the time. Michael Moore occassionally plays fast and loose with the facts but I’ve never seen him sic a lynch mob on people (Malkin) blame his own side for Nazi attrocities (OReilly), take sex tours of the caribbean (caught with a suitcase of Viagra and Oxy on the way to the dominican under someone elses perscription, which is a crime, and ludicrously not charged), call his political oppenents vile names in a campaign of hate similar to the radio programs in Rwanda leading up to the genocide (Coulter/Michael Savage), or condemn the victims of 9-11 as cowards (Coulter again). You’re as off base as Teddy is, but he’s only wrong about history. You’re part of the problem right now.

  • James Aka…

    Also, back at Teddy, I don’t condemn the USSR and China because of Communism, I condemn them because of violence and imperialism. I think Fidel Castro may be the most important and benevolent leader in the Global South in my whole life. He transformed Cuba from a gigantic Brothel run by actual american gangsters (Meyer Lansky) into a nation with the same life expectancy of the west with literacy numbers higher than inner city america. He’s not a flawless saint, but he’s the most honorable world leader I’m aware of in this hemisphere in the last century. Also, I have a picture of Ho Chi Minh hanging at home because I believe he was fighting for his nations freedom, and deserved a chance to win an election in a reuinfied vietnam. CIA records released by daniel ellesberg showed that he would have likely won such an election prior to the US invasion of south vietnam, ostensibily to protect the south vietnemese from reuinifying under leadership of northern communists. I know a vietnemse woman who was one of the boat people and hates the current government, but her discussion misses out on the fact that vietnam still suffers from the toxic waste the US sprayed all over the nation during the war, never mind the economic damage. To paraphrase Obama, I don’t oppose all communist leaders, but I do oppose the ones that are obviously mass murdering tyrants.

  • James Aka…

    Z, your labeling of people as american morons is just name calling, not to mention racist. since about 7 or 8 people are posting on this thread, call people by name, instead of castigating the whole nation, even if that wasn’t your intention. Teddy is Canadian I believe, as am I. If you want to critique something here, do so, don’t resort to ad hominems in your very first post. It cheapens the argument, and damages whatever comes next from you as a contribution.

    Redd, if you disagree with Teddy, do a little research to counter him. Finding genuine examples of the evils of Stalin and Mao takes litterally the time to read their wikipedia pages, so go do that. (not to say wiki is flawless, but often their pages point to really good sources that are both accurate and scholarly).

    Allenp, thanks for the thanks. I often disagree with what you post, but I always know that I’m reading the thoughs of an adult who is well read and considers what he posts.

  • James Aka…

    Teddy one final thing I noticed. The depopulation of North America happend mostly by accident. I will point you to Jared Diamond’s book guns germs and steel to make the point, though I don’t have the book on hand so you’ll have to look in the index. Most natives in North america were killed by disease in advance of conquering europeans, meaning that the introduction of small pox as well as other pathogens into native populations was done unintentionally. We do know of instances of small pox infested blankets being used for biological warefare, but primarily disease spread on its own. This was owing to the fact that dense european cities were breading grounds for disease so when the Europeans arrived, the exchange of germs was much like the exchange of small arms fire: almost totally one sided. Now I’m certain that conquering europeans would have probably killed and conqured across the continent if they had encountered more resistance, but the problem was 95 percent of the population had already died before they got there. The peak population is thought to be in the 15-20 million range before this happend. By the time famous war criminals like andrew jackson moved west, and famous heroes like sitting bull were defeated, you were looking at a tiny portion of what was once there. We know what europeans might have done, but they didn’t.

    Right now in North America, people of Native ancestry represent about 6.4 million people, based on 2006 Canadian Census and 2011 American Census information. As a defined population this sould suffer us greatly, but most of us don’t care. As Chris Rock said, name 3 Natives you actually know to highlight how little we collectively do for them (for comparisons sake, in canada there are 750-800 thousand people of recent african ancestry, under 400 000 jews, and 1.2 million natives).

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    ” It’s not that your critique of say US power or a history of Western European imperialism is wrong, its that you’re romanticising the behaviour of other violent empires solely on their position relative to the US as rivals.
    I think I told Teddy the same thing a while back. It’s that hierarchy of blame all humans like to employ, and typically we do a poor job.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Oh, and don’t forget Hitler perfected his concentration camp tactics in Nigeria first using black folks. Look it up if you’ve never heard about it. Interesting stuff.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Guns, Germs and Steel is one of the most awesome books in the history of awesome books. It should required reading in all American high schools.

  • James Aka…

    Was it Nigeria? I thought it was another country further south? I watched a documentary on it recently but I can’t remember the tribe that was targeted or the nation. Basically they were put out into this baren rock and starved to death. It wasn’t as much gun shot to the head or gas in the showers, though i do remember guns, but the same targeting of a group of people and the explicit we’re doing this to kill them as THE target as opposed to we want your sh!t which is usually the MO for imperial behaviour.

    As for Jared Diamond, yes I think that AND Collapse should be included.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    What is Collapse? Unfortunately I don’t read as much non-fiction as I should but I’m always interested.
    I also would recommend Slavery By Another Name by Douglass Blackmon if you want more information on the post Civil War life of black people and law enforcement policies that continue in some forms today.

  • James Aka…

    Collapse is where Diamond looks at large civilizations and analyzes patters of behaviour over time that led to differing civilizations falling apart after several centuries. For example he talks about why Iraq is such a pittiful place to life now, minus the obvious violence, when it was the fist place human civilization emerged. in other words, what made mespotamia go from boom to bust? so he talks about the environmental impact of ancient mesopotamian agricultral practice in salinizing and therefore desertifying much of the fertile crescent. River water carries small amounts of sodium from mountain ranges to the ocean, which is why the oceans have become more saline over time. If you irrigate with river water, salinity builds up and then agriculture collapses. In the end, he talks about how climate change and current agriculural practice will probably lead to a civilizational collapse globally that will probably end up costing similar percentages of human life around the world as did previous collapses, so billions.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Great stuff here by james. Teddy displaying his stupidity for all to see.

  • Yann Blavec

    He did block the bullet with his foot.

  • J-MaC

    Some people need to travel more before they speak. Going out of state a couple of times or watching documentaries shouldn’t count…

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I always find it interesting that people believe that physically traveling is more important than reading or gathering information in other forms.
    If you travel to a different country does that mean your mind has expanded enough to see the world differently, or that you just added a stamp on your passport. I think new experiences can be great, but how many people’s travels involve experiences that give them a true appreciation for the history and problems of other cultures? Mostly it’s just sightseeing and having fun.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Oh man, where do I start? There are many, many sources that can defend Stalin on the “Ukranian genocide” better than I; I don’t want to dig them up just yet–if/when I do, I’ll paste them here.
    I have never said China and the USSR are beyond criticism. What I am saying is that it’s completely asinine that people in the West attack these two countries for violence, ignoring ALL the historical achievements made for peoples and in their struggle AGAINST the dominant prevailing power which is Western imperialism. All violence was not created equally. Your line “Just because someone else is the emperor doesn’t mean you can’t be a pirate” is nothing but tripe–you say this ONLY because you, currently, are living as an “emperor” while 88% of the world are “pirates.”
    Again, your comparison of Russia and China to Western imperialism is nothing but liberal doublespeak and a complete denial of the phenomenon of white supremacy. Your insistence on equating the two completely overlooks the power dynamic of the world. Let’s focus on China, then I’ll come back to your points about the Holocaust…

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    I’d say a mixture of both is needed Allen, because you must read and learn but it’s detrimental to also follow up reading with talking to those who have more understanding of what you’re reading about that some books just don’t carry. Oh and I’ve gained mad respect for both Allen and James, it’s good to read, learn, care for those with less, but also enjoy every moment still. By the way, I think Capitalism is not the main source of issue although it’s the devil in disguise in the state and mold it is now. I think the mainlined issue is and always will be, human traits. Capitalism is horrible, but what is needed to improve on it, is a policy that is able to adapt to changing times. By that I mean a policy which is deep with other options for different criteria such as a nation becoming poor, a business abusing rights, etc. maybe it’s a stupid idea because humans don’t want to be rightly limited and told they can’t extend they’re power or it’s simply just dumb lol.

  • http://gmail.com z

    @james aka…point taken, i’ll have to remember to not open my arguments with insults. Your arguments have all been solid, well thought out, even though i don’t agree 100%, i am objective enough about stalinism as well as maoism to recognize that they committed many atrocities (but to my mind, that’s in the past, by no means does that mean that communism isn’t worth pursuing)and your point about hitler using test death camps in africa is something i was unaware of. Sorry i was saying all americans, it’s just redd in particular, and most of us americans in general need to open their eyes to what we’re doing (actively, at this very moment) to the planet we all inhabit.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    On the subject of China, have you noticed that MOST of their acts of aggression beyond their borders happened ONLY when they took the same political position as the United States?! In other words, when China left it’s revolutionary, anti-imperialist roots in order to compromise with the West, ONLY THEN did the so-called “imperialist invasion” of Vietnam take place.
    Like you said, the invasion of Vietnam was fully supported by the United States, and it was in defense of the Khmer Rouge. But while the Khmer Rouge was dreaded, what was the United States’ policy toward Cambodia? Again, with your Nazi Germany example, you completely ignore the white supremacist slant of Western media and public psyche, and the basic set of rules, which is this: 1. When white people (excluding Slavs) kill non-white people, it is *never* called genocide; 2. When non-white people kill people (be they white or not), it is *usually* called genocide; and 3. When white people kill white people, it *might* be called genocide.
    Again, with the case of Cambodia, the only reason the Khmer Rouge had as much support as they did was because prior to them, the US had been bombing their country repeatedly. The US killed around 300,000 Cambodians prior to the Khmer Rouge.
    You’re a fan of Chomsky, so you should know Chomsky has talked about this quite a lot. When the US was bombing Cambodia, he couldn’t find a single article in the press referring to these actions as genocide, or even mass murder. None at all. But as IMMEDIATELY, when the Khmer Rouge took power, the headlines read something like: “Killing in Cambodia reaching genocide levels,” “Threat of genocide in Cambodia,” “The Genocide in Cambodia,” etc. etc.
    If you don’t see this then you’re completely ignoring the very BASIC, and FUNDAMENTAL power structure under which the world operates as a result of imperialist/neo-colonialist domination.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Post Sino-Soviet split, we find more and more of this, and yes, as a supporter of China, a lot of their positions were abhorrent. In the policy of compromising and easing relations with the West, China–which was once invaluable to the liberation of other former colonies in Asia/Latin America/Africa–started to side with imperialism, for example, supporting the Mujahideen in Afghanistan and aiding UNITA in Angola, both of which were backward and reactionary, pro-imperialist elements.
    Does that mean China is on equal footing with the United States, which ALWAYS takes backward and reactionary stances that kill the most people, with NO EXCEPTIONS aside from MAYBE World War II?
    And man, you gave yourself away completely with that tripe about Native Americans. You’re willing to COMPLETELY rationalize and whitewash the depopulation of 98% of the Americas due to colonial-settler expansion, as being a benign “accident,” yet the Great Leap Forward in China which you admit was a failure of government policy–but NOT an intentional or foreseen event–is comparable to actual mass murder in the 20th Century.
    Man… I don’t even know what to say to that. That is pretty disgusting logic and a textbook example of white supremacy.

  • J-MaC

    Allenp
    People (Me;-) don’t say it is more important, you need to have a bit of every experience (Documentations and Travels) to be able to talk legitimately.. You can’t solely talk about a culture or country just by going on wiki or seeing a couple of news on TV. A lot of media outlets lie, hide the truth or simply don’t cover some events. Traveling to relax and have fun is not the same as wanting to experience a culture and/or country. How many people travel with “Gated Tours” and don’t get a chance to actually experience the place they are visiting? The problem is right there, if your travel is just about sightseeing, having fun and getting drunk in an expatriated gated community.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Teddy
    I think you equate pointing out Chinese and Soviet excesses with justifying American evil. And I don’t know about James, but I have a firm grasp on the scope of white supremacy in the world.
    Basically, in some cases it’s important to note who is “worse” and too often Americans tend to be ignorant about what this country has truly done in the name of democracy and capitalism. (Funny how those two are never discussed independently by Americans.)
    However, while noting this history, it’s not cool to pretend that communism doesn’t have it’s own enormous atrocities to answer for, and address how they are not part of the same mindset exhibited by the West.
    From my vantage point, both system, communism and capitalism, are flawed for different reasons, and human beings inevitable force those flaws to the forefront based on our nature. There is no political system that will be free of imperialistic tendencies because the vast majority of humans embrace imperialism. They just prefer to be the imperials.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    And there we go again, comparing China-Tibet to Western colonialism/Zionism. First of all, there’s a world of difference between A) two peoples interacting and intermingling as regional neighbors, as happened in all continents prior to the Age of Imperialism including Europe, and B) a people crossing the Atlantic effing Ocean to wipe out 98% of an entire population, and then continue this colonial dominance all across other foreign continents in all corners of the globe, in an attempt to extract wealth and resources to be used by one color of people, all while creating a literal human slave trafficking INDUSTRY supported by all governments.
    One was a natural course of history in which all people participated; the other is white colonial settlement and capitalism.
    It’s very clear and to most non-white people, who make up 88% of the world’s population (more if you count the Slavic nations who were the first European colonial victims), this doesn’t need explaining.
    So let’s talk about Tibet. Regardless of whether or not Tibet deserves independence today, the reality is that Tibet and China were ruled by the same empire since the Yuan dynasty, roughly the years 1200-1300 This is nearly five hundred years before the United States existed–HALF a millennium. During the Yuan dynasty by the way, the ethnic Han majority was not in power–the Mongolians were.
    So why do white Westerners chant “Free Tibet” but not “Free the Cherokee, free the Cree, free everything single First Nations and Inuit nation we continue to occupy today”?
    Second, you really need to revisit what the conditions were like in Tibet prior to the Communist revolution. The Dalai Lama had no problems with the Kuomintang Nationalist government. The only reason he fled China was because the Communists overthrew his theocratic, feudal slave state. I URGE you to read “Friendly Feudalism – The Tibet Myth” by Michael Parenti, it’s an article that you can google right away.

  • pposse

    china may do things wrong, but they are doing a lot of things right too. Currently they have the highest GDP, and that will only continue to rise. In fact, the worlds GDP is and will continue to be diminishing in America and rising in countries like Brazil, China, India. For all people that are completely against China, you may want to rethink this as a lot of scholars will encourage your children down the line (year 2025 and beyond) to go overseas to study in places like i mentioned above; the same way most students from other countries are told to come here to study now and in the past.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Here’s an excerpt that I think can answer your comment a bit Allen, as to the nature of Commun!st internationalism vs. Capital!st imperial!sm:
    “[in Old Tibet] The majority of the rural population were serfs. Treated little better than slaves, the serfs went without schooling or medical care, They were under a lifetime bond to work the lord’s land–or the monastery’s land–without pay, to repair the lord’s houses, transport his crops, and collect his firewood.

    The Tibetan serfs were something more than superstitious victims, blind to their own oppression. As we have seen, some ran away; others openly resisted, sometimes suffering dire consequences. In feudal Tibet, torture and mutilation–including eye gouging, the pulling out of tongues, hamstringing, and amputation–were favored punishments inflicted upon thieves, and runaway or resistant serfs. Journeying through Tibet in the 1960s, Stuart and Roma Gelder interviewed a former serf, Tsereh Wang Tuei, who had stolen two sheep belonging to a monastery. For this he had both his eyes gouged out and his hand mutilated beyond use. He explains that he no longer is a Buddhist: “When a holy lama told them to blind me I thought there was no good in religion.”21 Since it was against Buddhist teachings to take human life, some offenders were severely lashed and then “left to God” in the freezing night to die. “The parallels between Tibet and medieval Europe are striking,” concludes Tom Grunfeld in his book on Tibet. 22

    In 1959, Anna Louise Strong visited an exhibition of torture equipment that had been used by the Tibetan overlords. There were handcuffs of all sizes, including small ones for children, and instruments for cutting off noses and ears, gouging out eyes, breaking off hands, and hamstringing legs. There were hot brands, whips, and special implements for disemboweling. The exhibition presented photographs and testimonies of victims who had been blinded or crippled or suffered amputations for thievery. There was the shepherd whose master owed him a reimbursement in yuan and wheat but refused to pay. So he took one of the master’s cows; for this he had his hands severed. Another herdsman, who opposed having his wife taken from him by his lord, had his hands broken off. There were pictures of Communist activists with noses and upper lips cut off, and a woman who was raped and then had her nose sliced away.23

    Whatever wrongs and new oppressions introduced by the Chinese after 1959, they did abolish slavery and the Tibetan serfdom system of unpaid labor. They eliminated the many crushing taxes, started work projects, and greatly reduced unemployment and beggary. They established secular schools, thereby breaking the educational monopoly of the monasteries. And they constructed running water and electrical systems in Lhasa.

    By 1961, Chinese occupation authorities expropriated the landed estates owned by lords and lamas. They distributed many thousands of acres to tenant farmers and landless peasants, reorganizing them into hundreds of communes.. Herds once owned by nobility were turned over to collectives of poor shepherds. Improvements were made in the breeding of livestock, and new varieties of vegetables and new strains of wheat and barley were introduced, along with irrigation improvements, all of which reportedly led to an increase in agrarian production.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Here’s an excerpt that I think can answer your comment a bit Allen, as to the nature of Commun!st international!sm vs. Capital!st imperial!sm:
    “[in Old Tibet] The majority of the rural population were serfs. Treated little better than slaves, the serfs went without schooling or medical care, They were under a lifetime bond to work the lord’s land–or the monastery’s land–without pay, to repair the lord’s houses, transport his crops, and collect his firewood.
    …………………….
    The Tibetan serfs were something more than superstitious victims, blind to their own oppression. As we have seen, some ran away; others openly resisted, sometimes suffering dire consequences. In feudal Tibet, torture and mutilation–including eye gouging, the pulling out of tongues, hamstringing, and amputation–were favored punishments inflicted upon thieves, and runaway or resistant serfs. Journeying through Tibet in the 1960s, Stuart and Roma Gelder interviewed a former serf, Tsereh Wang Tuei, who had stolen two sheep belonging to a monastery. For this he had both his eyes gouged out and his hand mutilated beyond use. He explains that he no longer is a Buddh!st: “When a holy lama told them to blind me I thought there was no good in religion.”21 Since it was against Buddh!st teachings to take human life, some offenders were severely lashed and then “left to God” in the freezing night to die. “The parallels between Tibet and medieval Europe are striking,” concludes Tom Grunfeld in his book on Tibet.
    …………………..
    In 1959, Anna Louise Strong visited an exhibition of torture equipment that had been used by the Tibetan overlords. There were handcuffs of all sizes, including small ones for children, and instruments for cutting off noses and ears, gouging out eyes, breaking off hands, and hamstringing legs. There were hot brands, whips, and special implements for disemboweling. The exhibition presented photographs and testimonies of victims who had been blinded or crippled or suffered amputations for thievery. There was the shepherd whose master owed him a reimbursement in yuan and wheat but refused to pay. So he took one of the master’s cows; for this he had his hands severed. Another herdsman, who opposed having his wife taken from him by his lord, had his hands broken off. There were pictures of Communist activists with noses and upper lips cut off, and a woman who was r@ped and then had her nose sliced away.
    ………………………………
    Whatever wrongs and new oppress!ons introduced by the Chinese after 1959, they did abolish sl@very and the Tibetan serfdom system of unpaid labor. They eliminated the many crushing taxes, started work projects, and greatly reduced unemployment and beggary. They established secular schools, thereby breaking the educational monopoly of the monasteries. And they constructed running water and electrical systems in Lhasa.
    ………………………………………………….
    By 1961, Chinese occupat!on authorities expropriated the landed estates owned by lords and lamas. They distributed many thousands of acres to tenant farmers and landless peasants, reorganizing them into hundreds of communes.. Herds once owned by nobility were turned over to collectives of poor shepherds. Improvements were made in the breeding of livestock, and new varieties of vegetables and new strains of wheat and barley were introduced, along with irrigation improvements, all of which reportedly led to an increase in agrarian product!on.”

  • James Aka…

    Allen, I would say that travel is useful after reading though. If you’ve read competing narratives on something, seeing the place first hand can help you determine which one is more accurate in describing a place. This is an annecdotal thing mind you, but I found this to be true when I went to Ethiopia a couple of years ago. But travel without research can be horribly misleading.

  • James Aka…

    Z, I think you’ll find that problem is all accross liberal democracies. I have seen studies that objectively identify the general US populace of being less aware of the world than say the populaces of Europe, Canada or Japan, but I fear thats only on a relative scale. I think if people of the west had to suffer like most of the rest of the world, particularly as it relates to our direct actions militarily, economically and most importantly ecologically, there would be large changes in how we do things. That being said, I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that things wouldn’t changed. The ability to hate the other without any rational reason is a very human characteristic, and I’ve seen it happen too often every culture I’ve ever spent time studying to believe that its solely a cultural product of our own societies here.

  • James Aka…

    PPose, your comment about GDP is incorrect. China doesn’t have the fastest growing GDP in the world, although it has vastly outperformed western economies. The problem with that though is that China ceased to function according to communist/marxist economic ideology when deng xiaopeng took control in the 1970′s. Often this is said when they became “capitalist” which is a little misleading because thats not what their economic arrangement truley is. They engage in something closer to economic fascism, which has shown itself over this century to be very successful. Nazi Germany for example was able to pull itself up by its bootstraps quite quickly, allowing it to nearly take over all of western europe before being beaten back by the most advanced and productive nation of the era and it’s allies. Similarly, south korea developed in this command style economy with private firm cooperation, until the 1980′s when it underwent a democratic political revolution. Incidentally, China’s achievement has been by assuring western firms access to cheap labour markets where workers are horribly abused, producing vibrant bout insanely polluted cities full of citizens that are quite disconnected by the continuing rural poverty affecting a billion other chinese citizens. I don’t know what that means for the future, but I imagine that the rural poor will stay poor. Morever, compared to the west, China’s GDP per person is quite low, so it will be a long time before, assuming a massive global collapse in agriculture globally doesn’t doom us all, China can be compared on a one to one scale with Western Europe, Japan, South Korea or North America.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    I do appreciate this discussion though, James. Thanks for engaging.
    As for Amnesty and HRW, we don’t have to talk about their funding–we only need to look at some examples. One of the most blatant illustrations of their tendency to support imperialism (and no matter how much they criticize the US, I see this as their default position), was when this year, amidst massive anti-NATO protests in Chicago during the NATO summit, Amnesty put out a poster of an Afghan girl. The poster was about the US’ ongoing talks with the Taliban to reach some sort of settlement, and read something like: “Don’t forget to protect women’s rights. Keep up the good work, NATO!” It literally said “Keep up the good work, NATO!” even though NATO is almost solely responsible for the destruction of Afghanistan.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    LONG… LIVE… THE KING!
    My bad, my brethren. lol
    And shout out @z.
    The most informed, and the deepest individual in the history of deep and informed individuals.

  • James Aka…

    Teddy, there are no statistics in your long excerpt to Allen giving a sense of what the scale of attrocity was. That being said, it reads exactly like western justifications for incursions into other nations over the 20th century. The fact that you can’t see that is directly attibutable to the immense inequity in dealing with the absolute raw numbers of death by Mao’s China and Stalin’s Russia in relation to Western imperialism. China’s invasion in 1959 is period an invasion complete with land seisure and attroicty. It doesn’t matter if you replace a brutal and backward order with equal brutality. thats why George Bushgets no points for overthrowing Saddam Hussein, because in doing so he caused irreparable harm to the nation, its people, and the region (Syrias current Civil war Is certainly linked to receiving by far the largest share of 2 million unemployed iraqi refugees linked to the 2003 war). So the introduction of technology at the end of a gun is the same as the introduction of religion at the end of a gun or anything else at the end of a gun. Wrong. Period. As for your tendancy to resort immediately to personal insults on here when engaged in an argument, in this case a hillarious inversion of historical reality concerning the crimes of Non-Western nations, you’ll find me less than crushed at your assessment of Saint Augustine and Noam Chomsky’s quote, particularly given Chomsky’s lifetime of work and expertese in international affairs compared against your warmed over support for rewriting the historical record of crimes associated with 2 of the 3 worst monsters of the 20th century, your general tone of racism towards people in the west as white, even though we’re not all white, nor does whiteness explain our actions, and finally your baffling contention that the holocaust is only remembered because its victims are white, not because it was the largest process of civilian murder in all history.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Philo FTW.

  • James Aka…

    Nato is solely responsible for the destruction of Afghanistan?

    That statement cannot pass. The British are responsible for their invasion 100 years ago, the soviets theirs 30 years ago. Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are responsbile for the destructive brand of Islam that was introducted to fight the Soviets. Nato is responsible for the birth of a state that will look exactly like pre-taliban post soviet invasion afghanistan. Aportion blame appropriately and you look like a scholar. Aportion it without any sense of any history, as though NATO’s current actions are the beginning and end of history, and you look both ignorant and fanatical of reality. Every consequential event makes something what it is, not only the one you wish for. As for HRW, they’ are myopic in their assessment of the potential for gender equality in afghanistan, but that does not negate everything they have done or will done. Like anything in this world, you praise they good and castigate the bad. It sounds like you read only anti-imperialists make mistakes. Chomsky for years wore the mantle of buffoon for his and Edward Herman’s treatment of Cambodia in real time by sometimes using sarchastic tones and in other instances being too skeptical of US claims about the Khmer Rouge. Although this has been twisted by critics to make him look worse (as though he actually was in support of that regime as opposed to overly skeptical in the face of 2 decades of US bombing of indo-China), the point is it damaged his standing more broadly to speak. So have a little charity when criticising an organization where people spend their lifetimes researching and reporting on all others, even if they do err on the side of western power and are wrong.

    As to you more personally when you stand up and say that Stalin had no role in starving his own people, or murdering millions in his gulags, or that Mao has no agency for Chinese imperialism or that its the west fault that China is now imperialist, you damage the political chances of ever dealing with problems here and now. Stalin’s crimes are beyond dispute. He was castigated by his own successor in as strong terms as possible, and there is an avalanche of scholarly material demonstrating how terrible he was. It harms the political chances of someone like Jack Layton becoming prime minister when you open your mouth and say things that are blantantly incorrect more than it hurts someone like george bush when someone blows away dozens of movie goers due to poor gun laws.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    @ James: You still don’t see a difference between Tibet and the Americas? First of all, if you’d have read the article, you would know that the Chinese Communists didn’t “invade” Tibet. You also would have learned that the entire Lama system was created BY China several centuries ago, and that the first Dalai Lama was chosen BY China. And that, prior to the Communists, the Tibetan ruling class enjoyed a cozy relationship to China’s Nationalist government. You’re conflating a backward and pro-imperialist Tibetan ruling class with the masses of Tibetans who did NOT want this despot.
    You also would have known that Chinese vs. Tibetan military altercations were a DIRECT consequence of US imperialism in Asia. Like in Cuba, the CIA literally paid salaries to Tibet’s despots and funded/trained rebels–overwhelmingly from the lama ruling elite–to overthrow the Communists.
    And since when is it wrong to seize land from slave masters and redistribute it to the masses of peasants and serfs? When has Western imperialism EVER done this for colonized subjects???
    ……………………………………………….
    “What happened to Tibet after the Chinese Communists moved into the country in 1951? The treaty of that year provided for ostensible self-governance under the Dalai Lama’s rule but gave China military control and exclusive right to conduct foreign relations. The Chinese were also granted a direct role in internal administration ‘to promote social reforms.’ Among the earliest changes they wrought was to reduce usurious interest rates, and build a few hospitals and roads. At first, they moved slowly, relying mostly on persuasion in an attempt to effect reconstruction. No aristocratic or monastic property was confiscated, and feudal lords continued to reign over their hereditarily bound peasants. “Contrary to popular belief in the West,” claims one observer, the Chinese “took care to show respect for Tibetan culture and religion.”
    ……………………………………………………..
    Over the centuries the Tibetan lords and lamas had seen Chinese come and go, and had enjoyed good relations with Generalissimo Chiang Kaishek and his reactionary Kuomintang rule in China. The approval of the Kuomintang government was needed to validate the choice of the Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama. When the current 14th Dalai Lama was first installed in Lhasa, it was with an armed escort of Chinese troops and an attending Chinese minister, in accordance with centuries-old tradition. What upset the Tibetan lords and lamas in the early 1950s was that these latest Chinese were Communists. It would be only a matter of time, they feared, before the Communists started imposing their collectivist egalitarian schemes upon Tibet.”

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    MOST IMPORTANT*************
    “The issue was joined in 1956-57, when armed Tibetan bands ambushed convoys of the Chinese Peoples Liberation Army. The uprising received extensive assistance from the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), including military training, support camps in Nepal, and numerous airlifts.27 Meanwhile in the United States, the American Society for a Free Asia, a CIA-financed front, energetically publicized the cause of Tibetan resistance, with the Dalai Lama’s eldest brother, Thubtan Norbu, playing an active role in that organization. The Dalai Lama’s second-eldest brother, Gyalo Thondup, established an intelligence operation with the CIA as early as 1951. He later upgraded it into a CIA-trained guerrilla unit whose recruits parachuted back into Tibet.28
    ………………………………………………………….
    Many Tibetan commandos and agents whom the CIA dropped into the country were chiefs of aristocratic clans or the sons of chiefs. Ninety percent of them were never heard from again, according to a report from the CIA itself, meaning they were most likely captured and killed. “Many lamas and lay members of the elite and much of the Tibetan army joined the uprising, but in the main the populace did not, assuring its failure,” writes Hugh Deane.30 In their book on Tibet, Ginsburg and Mathos reach a similar conclusion: “As far as can be ascertained, the great bulk of the common people of Lhasa and of the adjoining countryside failed to join in the fighting against the Chinese both when it first began and as it progressed.”31 Eventually the resistance crumbled.
    **************************************************************
    Doesn’t that sound a lot like the Bay of Pigs’ invasion? Was Cuba acting imperialistic by crushing US defectors?
    Yes China’s upholding of the Lama ruling classes prior to the Communists does sound like a miniature imperialism. Well, the West completely supported this and the US was willing to start a proxy war to maintain this relationship.
    Thus, it’s a complete reversal of the truth to say that the Communists were acting imperialistic in this instance.

  • James Aka…

    Parenti’s article is good but like anything not without criticism. It’s quite strong in deromanticising the notion of feudal tibet, though its a partical study exerpting conflicting narratives to form a whole testemonial. One thing that jumped out at me though is that the current protest of an influx of continual Han migrants obviously undermines the idea of strictly a cultural change for the benefit of tibetans. It is about economic exploitation by the centre of the smaller contemporary chinese imperialist project, and looks exactly like the US attempt to economically integrate Afghanistan while attempting to better the culture using coercion and violence. The differnce being that 10 million texans aren’t setting up shop diplacing the local population. I also find it interesting that the Dalai Lama mentions at the end of Parenti’s article that marxist philosophy is quite just even though he is allegedly the direct political decendent of a tibeten class that hated communism as Parenti puts it without adequately supporting that assertion, plausible though it may seem to me. The bottom line is this, however horrible Tibet’s politcal elite was prior to the Han invasion, the fact that the whole province is being assimilated and gentrified by ethnic Han demonstrates that it is not now about bettering the lives of tibetans, it’s about China’s interests only.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    This is what I want to know;
    All of tyrants/rulers who are being discussed in this thread has/had people that they answer(ed) to, right? They had “bosses”, no?
    Who are they?
    Who were they?
    Oh, wait… nevermind.
    Proceed, my brethren.
    What’s going on, LakeShow?

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    All of *these* tyrants/rulers…

  • James Aka…

    It’s not the same china, as you can see from the same article. If the Kublai Khan is mongel, he is not Han, which is the current Chinese seat of power. It’s like saying the germans and italians are they same because they both sent armies over europe and exist in ajacent politcal territory. It involves the CIA, which makes it sound like the bay of pigs to you, but we can examine the difference quite keenly. In the case of Cuba, Russia didn’t send several million russians into cuba to displace the people of the island after the cuban government helped put down the old guard attempted rebellion in cuba. Also, the tibetans weren’t linked to american interests prior to their overthrown by chinese invasion. So it sounds very little like the bay of pigs except if all you see is CIA and Communism in the comparison.

  • James Aka…

    Philo, you mean they had politcal bases they relied on, political allies? Yes would be the answer. No one man, no matter how mal or well intended can achieve any large project with out supporters/follwers/enablers. To say that Stalin or hitler actually killed 20 million does restrict the docket a little, since it took a lot of killers to achieve that end.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    All in all, you’re arguing for/against human nature. From the Tibetan Buddhist monks to the Burma Buddhists, one of the most thought of peaceful religions/ideologies is even cruel & evil. What’s that say about us? We’re an evil being.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Neither Parenti nor I said anything about the Chinese being completely altruistic. My point is that comparisons to Western imperialism are completely off base. Especially when you want to compare Afghanistan to Tibet.
    First, point me to a situation where the West bettered the “culture” in Afghanistan? The problem is that you get to pick the timeline that best suits you. You never want to start at the outset of the conflict in question.
    Soviet military intervention in Afghanistan was a REACTION to US destabilization attempts on the progressive PDPA government. The US supported every single backward, reactionary component of Afghanistan, as it does EVERYWHERE it goes, so long as they’re open to US domination.
    And my problem with Western humanitarian organizations and media as a whole is that they never dare question the power structure of the world. The West is now the criminal, policeman, judge, and jury when it comes to history and current events. Is this not white supremacy?

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    James:
    Even the political bases and political allies that these leaders relied/rely on;
    Who powers these bases? Who do the supposed, “powers that be” look to?
    They have to look to an entity, or entities, no?
    One of my points being, that these people, in a many an instance, are being told what to do, no?
    If they do not do what they’re told, then, their power would cease. In many cases, their lives would cease, no?

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    And since you keep bringing up Afghanistan, why don’t we look at the period surrounding Soviet influence? Most of the whitewashing of US imperialism has to do with the lie that NATO is there to build schools for little girls. I call it “Femin!st Imperial!sm.” So to dispel this myth as well, here’s a brief history of women in Afghanistan, that I painstakingly wrote out a few months ago for other ppl (note: I use NATO synonymously with “US” and the “West”, which might be confusing at first):
    BEFORE NATO’s TAKEOVER:
    - Under the Marx!st PDPA government, which the US overthrew (more on that later), Afghan women were already being liberated. Women were guaranteed equal rights by law, had free healthcare, participated in mass literacy campaigns and were an integral part of the workforce. The PDPA built schools, kindergartens, and nurseries which greatly aided this process.
    - Prior to the PDPA, 98% of women were illiterate. By contrast, during the 1980s, under the PDPA, women comprised 40% of all doctors and 70% of all teachers in the nation. In Kabul University, 60% of the instructors and 65% of all students were female. And family courts–some with female judges–replaced the old Sharia courts ran by mullahs.
    - The number of working women increased 50-fold. By 1987, there were an estimated 245,000 women working in fields ranging from construction, printing and food processing to radio and TV journal!sm, with teaching being especially popular.
    ……………………………………………
    IN COMES NATO:
    - In 1979, just one year after the Afghan socialist revolution, the CIA begins funding and training the Mujahideen or “holy warriors” to overthrow the Afghan government. Later found among these rebels are Salafi-Sunni extrem!sts from Saudi Arabia–who we now call Al Qaeda–including a young Os@ma B!n L@den.
    - The excuse today, another lie, is that the US was helping Afghan “freedom fighters” fend off a Soviet invas!on. In reality, the US began funneling arms to insurgents six months before the Soviets even set foot in Afghanistan. And “invas!on” itself is a misnomer because the Afghan government REQUESTED that the Soviets assist them against the US-backed insurg3ncy.
    - To make a long story short, the Soviets withdraw in 1989 thanks to Gorbachev, leaving the PDPA out to dry. The so-called “Mujah!ideen” succeed in overthrowing the Afghan government by 1992 and proceed to fight amongst themselves. This sparks a civil war between warlords until the Taliban take power in 1996 with America’s blessing. Without US support for the insurgency, the Taliban would NOT exist.
    - Every single achievement made by women is erased during this period. Women are “neither seen nor heard” and have every right stripped. They are forbidden to work or attend school.
    - The US continues supporting the Taliban and negotiates a deal with them to build the Trans-Afghanistan (Unocal) oil-and-gas pipeline. However, at this point Osama Bin Laden turns on his white masters and bombs several American embassies in East Africa. The Taliban leader voices his support to Osama Bin Laden, and the pipeline talks are halted. Only then does the US stop supporting them. This has absolutely nothing to do with women.
    - September 11, 2001: The World Tr@de Centers are attacked, supposedly by Osama B!n Laden and Al Q@eda.
    - The US, Britain, Canada and a slew of other NATO countries invade Afghanistan, overthrow the Taliban, and occupy it militarily for over ten years to today. Their puppet president is Hamid Karzai and their allies the Northern Alliance, the same pack of warlords from 1992-1996 who’ve k!lled over 50,000 people.
    …………………………………………………….
    2001 to TODAY:
    - Afghanistan is in ruins. NATO troops have k!lled almost 30,000 people. The Northern Alliance, their new ally, has conducted mass r@pes across the country.
    - The overall literacy rate for women is 12%. Only about 30% of girls are even in school. In 2009 the education ministry reported that about 500 schools, most of them for girls, were destroyed or forced to close (a lot of this due to the Tal!ban). Between March and October 2010, at least 126 schoolteachers and students were murd3red.
    - Official Afghan statistics report that 2300 women (an underestimation) commit suic!de each year–that’s six per day. The average life expectancy for women is 44 years, a whopping 24 years below world average. Again, thanks to Western imperialism.
    - In 2004, the Afghan constitution drafted with US overseers ends up protecting Sharia Law. In 2006, Karzai’s cabinet reestablishes the Department for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, which was notorious under the Taliban for its brutal imposit!on of Sharia, including stoning to death of women.
    - In March 2012, NATO-puppet president Hamid Karzai releases and endorses a non-binding edict issued by the Ulema council (Afghanistan’s highest Islamic authority), which literally states:
    “Men are fundamental and women are secondary,” adding women should avoid “mingling with strange men in various social activities such as education, in bazaars, in offices and other aspects of life.”
    …………………………………………….
    Do you still want to compare this kind of devastation of Afghanistan by the West to China’s overthrow of Lama rule in Tibet? I don’t oppose the West and support the East just on ideological grounds, but because I see the ACTUAL material effects that each have on the world as a whole. Contrary to popular opinion in the West, there IS a hierarchy of evil which has EVERYTHING to do with who has power and wealth in this world.

  • James Aka…

    The soviets showed their concern for the civilian population by literally murdering 1.7 million of them, so that’s laughable on its face. It doesn’t matter if they have political constiuency amongst a minority there if they then proceed to murder swaths of civilians, run over people in tanks, and commit a decade of war crimes, any more than it did for americans in vietnam. If you show up in a country to help the people, and then gun them down by the hundreds of thousads when some of them rebel, thats it, you’re an imperialist.

    Again it’s not being white that has anything to do with it, thats both your racism talking as well as being factually incorrect. Oboma’s blackness, didn’t change US policy. Imperialism is the set of conditions and policies which your attacking. Whiteness is my skin colour not my political outlook.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    And since you keep bringing up Afghanistan, why don’t we look at the period surrounding Soviet influence? Most of the whitewashing of US imperialism has to do with the lie that NATO is there to build schools for little girls. I call it “Femin!st Imperial!sm.” So to dispel this myth as well, here’s a brief history of women in Afghanistan, that I painstakingly wrote out a few months ago for other ppl (note: I use NATO synonymously with “US” and the “West”, which might be confusing at first):
    BEFORE NATO’s TAKEOVER:
    - Under the Marx!st PDPA government, which the US overthrew (more on that later), Afghan women were already being liberated. Women were guaranteed equal rights by law, had free healthcare, participated in mass literacy campaigns and were an integral part of the workforce. The PDPA built schools, kindergartens, and nurseries which greatly aided this process.
    - Prior to the PDPA, 98% of women were illiterate. By contrast, during the 1980s, under the PDPA, women comprised 40% of all doctors and 70% of all teachers in the nation. In Kabul University, 60% of the instructors and 65% of all students were female. And family courts–some with female judges–replaced the old Shar!a courts ran by mullahs.
    - The number of working women increased 50-fold. By 1987, there were an estimated 245,000 women working in fields ranging from construction, printing and food processing to radio and TV journal!sm, with teaching being especially popular.
    ……………………………………………
    IN COMES NATO:
    - In 1979, just one year after the Afghan social!st revolution, the CIA begins funding and training the Mujah!deen or “holy warriors” to overthrow the Afghan government. Later found among these rebels are Salafi-Sunni extrem!sts from Saudi Arabia–who we now call Al Qaeda–including a young Os@ma B!n L@den.
    - The excuse today, another lie, is that the US was helping Afghan “freedom fighters” fend off a Soviet invas!on. In reality, the US began funneling arms to insurgents six months before the Soviets even set foot in Afghanistan. And “invas!on” itself is a misnomer because the Afghan government REQUESTED that the Soviets assist them against the US-backed insurg3ncy.
    - To make a long story short, the Soviets withdraw in 1989 thanks to Gorbachev, leaving the PDPA out to dry. The so-called “Mujah!ideen” succeed in overthrowing the Afghan government by 1992 and proceed to fight amongst themselves. This sparks a civil war between warlords until the Taliban take power in 1996 with America’s blessing. Without US support for the insurgency, the Taliban would NOT exist.
    - Every single achievement made by women is erased during this period. Women are “neither seen nor heard” and have every right stripped. They are forbidden to work or attend school.
    - The US continues supporting the Taliban and negotiates a deal with them to build the Trans-Afghan!stan (Unocal) oil-and-gas pipeline. However, at this point Osama Bin Laden turns on his white masters and bombs several American embassies in East Africa. The Taliban leader voices his support to Osama Bin Laden, and the pipeline talks are halted. Only then does the US stop supporting them. This has absolutely nothing to do with women.
    - September 11, 2001: The World Tr@de Centers are attacked, supposedly by Osama B!n Laden and Al Q@eda.
    - The US, Britain, Canada and a slew of other NATO countries invade Afghanistan, overthrow the Taliban, and occupy it militarily for over ten years to today. Their puppet president is Hamid Karzai and their allies the Northern Alliance, the same pack of warlords from 1992-1996 who’ve k!lled over 50,000 people.
    …………………………………………………….
    2001 to TODAY:
    - Afghanistan is in ruins. NATO troops have k!lled almost 30,000 people. The Northern Alliance, their new ally, has conducted mass r@pes across the country.
    - The overall literacy rate for women is 12%. Only about 30% of girls are even in school. In 2009 the education ministry reported that about 500 schools, most of them for girls, were destroyed or forced to close (a lot of this due to the Tal!ban). Between March and October 2010, at least 126 schoolteachers and students were murd3red.
    - Official Afghan statistics report that 2300 women (an underestimation) commit suic!de each year–that’s six per day. The average life expectancy for women is 44 years, a whopping 24 years below world average. Again, thanks to Western imperialism.
    - In 2004, the Afghan constitution drafted with US overseers ends up protecting Sharia Law. In 2006, Karzai’s cabinet reestablishes the Department for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, which was notorious under the Taliban for its brutal imposit!on of Sharia, including stoning to death of women.
    - In March 2012, NATO-puppet president Hamid Karzai releases and endorses a non-binding edict issued by the Ulema council (Afghanistan’s highest Islamic authority), which literally states:
    “Men are fundamental and women are secondary,” adding women should avoid “mingling with strange men in various social activities such as education, in bazaars, in offices and other aspects of life.”
    …………………………………………….
    Do you still want to compare this kind of devastation of Afghanistan by the West to China’s overthrow of Lama rule in Tibet? I don’t oppose the West and support the East just on ideological grounds, but because I see the ACTUAL material effects that each have on the world as a whole. Contrary to popular opinion in the West, there IS a hierarchy of evil which has EVERYTHING to do with who has power and wealth in this world.

  • James Aka…

    Parenti’s argument is that it was an attempt to spread marxist ideology about equality, which may or may not be true, but that’s not what it is. When you move in and displace the native population to develop something that economically benefits you, thats imperialism. I comparted that to the west bank and gaza strip, not afghanistan. Afghanistan is comparable to vietnam almost down to the letter. I also pointed out that Russian imperialism existed before and after the USSR but that Stalin stands out since his body count was, as Mao’s was in the 10′s of millions. I would say that Krushchev was no worse than the american presidents that he faced, and all likeliehood better, but he did kill 10′s of thousands of czech’s and hungarians so he’s not a good man either. Stalin and Hitler killed more human beings than every US president combined. Mao may have although i’m not as well read on him as I am so I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt until I know otherwise.

  • James Aka…

    Nato’s takeover happend in 2002, not in 1979. You’re leaping throgh the interceding history as though it means nothing. The soviets, whatever their initial aim, ended up turning the nation into hamburger over a 10 year period.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Can you see why it’s outright dishonest and a complete slap in the face to Afghans when Amnesty puts out an ad saying: “Keep it up, NATO!”??? NATO is the #1 enemy of the Afghan people. Could you imagine Amnesty International, which you purport to be unbiased, ever running an ad sayingg: “Keep it up, China! Don’t forget the former serfs oppressed by the Dalai Lama??” I wouldn’t like that, but it’d actually be a thousand times more accurate than the pro-NATO ad.
    Is that to say Amnesty doesn’t also do good work? Of course not. A lot of the work they do is very valuable. The problem is when we use Western-based NGOs as the *standard* of truth. Let’s be honest, if there was a human rights group coming out of China, or Russia, or Africa, that had no ties to the West whatsoever, would you donate to them? Would you support them? Or would you dismiss them as agents of propaganda?

  • James Aka…

    You can’t use different things synonomosly. They are different things. your intellectual dishonesty is truely breathtaking.

  • Allenp

    Was the Holocaust a larger example of murder than the Middle Passage though? I know that was 20 Century but still…

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    James, it’s called a PROXY war. The US = NATO, as far as I’m concerned. It WAS a US takeover.
    So the fact that the US funded and trained the backward, reactionary forces that overthrew the best government Afghanistan ever had, means nothing?
    And again, you’re wrong. You’re reverting back to the lens of white supremacy, seeing the West as the default good guys. No matter how much evidence I’ve given you, you still have this inability to accept that no, other people are not more evil than the white Western world. The West is NOT the standard of human decency–it’s the standard of human hypocrisy.
    There are at least 100 million African bodies in the Atlantic Ocean somewhere, while at least 10-13 million Natives in North America were killed by European settlers (about 100 million in total if you count both the Americas, and Spain as well).
    And you also fail to take into account the numerous proxies wars fought in the interests of the United States, with tens of millions dead or displaced in Africa alone.
    Just stop it.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    How the F*CK can you blame Western Imperialism for the literacy rate and suicide rate of women in a country that uses sharia law?
    Mannnnnn.
    Just ignore me though.
    Keep it going.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    And no, the Holocaust was NOT the largest example of mass murder even during WWII. The Japanese murdered millions more Chinese, Koreans, and Filipino people than the Nazis did the Soviets, Jews, Roma, etc.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Every time Teddy speaks, a white person loses their wings.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    *falls outta the sky*

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    @ Lakeshow: Because Sharia Law wouldn’t exist in that country if the US hadn’t tried to overthrow their previous F*CKING government. Jesus Christ, it’s not that hard to understand.
    The country that adheres most loyally to Sharia Law today is probably Saudi Arabia. Guess what? They’re America’s best buddies in the region. The House of Saud has its roots in British imperialism, and wouldn’t exist today without huge amounts of US military support.

  • http://slamonline.com Chubachuchi

    Quick question Teddy are you pro communist?

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Yup.

  • http://slamonline.com Chubachuchi

    What can you say about China’s bullying in SE Asia’s Spratlys islands and some of Japans islands, as well as NKorea’s hermit stance?

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    for the most part. I’m not a rigid follower of any one leader or anything like that.
    Anyways thanks for the discussion everyone, especially James. (sry for my impatience in the last comment, LakeShow).
    I’m gonna head out for a bit. Peace guys.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    Lakeshow you’re clearly ignorant and oblivious. Did you not know only the Bible allows stoning? More so Sharia Law actually no longer exists, one of the biggest urban myths. Get your facts straight ignoramus.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    sh!t, sry chubachuchi. I’ll answer you later, I really have to eat lunch lol.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Your best buddy could be Ted Bundy.
    Doesn’t mean your a fan of mass murdering women in stealth of the night in a VW Beetle, circa 1968.
    .
    I just don’t see how you don’t see that you are on the extremist side.
    You don’t give America any credit when the deserve it and you blame everything on America even when it’s not their fault.
    You have to understand, just as you are saying that China and Russia are not all bad, the U.S. isn’t either.
    The WORLD is a f*cked up place Teddy.
    PEOPLE are f*cked up Teddy.
    America is awful.
    China is awful.
    Russia is awful.
    You need to admit that the West is not the thing that’s holding the world back.
    It’s the human condition that holds the World back.
    It’s a human problem, quit blaming it all on the U.S.
    That’s my opinion.
    .
    Redd…. not worth my time. I was an idiot when I was younger too.
    If you don’t think that sharia law is practiced in parts of the middle east. Your stupid man. Sorry, but that’s the only way I can put it.
    You’ll learn allot in the next couple years of your life and i’ll enjoy speaking with you after that time.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    @ JAmes: Clearly you’re knowledgeable and I appreciate your willingness to engage. Thanks for a great discussion.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    @ chubachuchi: tbh I haven’t been following these events that closely. But is China being the bully right now? They are the strongest country in that region, and Vietnam does have a reason to be cautious about China since there was some bullying throughout history (which I’m completely against), but I think we need to look at this in a wider frame. Once again, US imperialism rears its ugly head (I know, this sh!t is starting to sound like a Star Wars movie, lol).
    The US has been trying to contain China’s growing influence, and have used the Spratly Islands conflict to strengthen military ties to the Philippines and smooth over relations with Vietnam. This is pretty hypocritical considering their imperialist wars against BOTH countries in the past.
    I’m 100% opposed to a war between Vietnam and China (Vietnam has been through so much hell already), and also between the Philippines and China. However, I don’t give the US any legitimacy in trying to throw its weight in a dispute that’s happening at the other side of the Pacific Ocean. IF the US continues this and if Japan poses a real threat to China, then I fully support China’s right to defend itself.
    As for North Korea, again, they’re only isolated because the US/EU have isolated them through sanctions. I don’t blame North Korea for h@ting the West, when these sanctions are only aimed at hurting their people. The US holds joint military exercises each year with South Korea, which the North rightly sees as a threat to its existence.
    All that being said, while I don’t agree with everything in North Korea, they have had some tremendous achievements due to socialism. They actually had a higher standard of living than the South up until the 1980s. This, after the US pretty much destroyed all their infrastructure during the Korean War. I support their right to sovereignty and independence.
    Another reason why I like the Soviet Union is because they provided an alternative to socialist/third world countries who wanted to chart and independent path. After the collapse of Soviet Union, that’s when North Korea and Cuba, and also Russia and the Eastern European states, fell into recession.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    @ chubachuchi: tbh I haven’t been following these events that closely. But is China being the bully right now? They are the strongest country in that region, and Vietnam does have a reason to be cautious about China since there was some bullying throughout history (which I’m completely against), but I think we need to look at this in a wider frame. Once again, US imperial!sm rears its ugly head (I know, this sh!t is starting to sound like a Star Wars movie, lol).
    The US has been trying to contain China’s growing influence, and have used the Spratly Islands conflict to strengthen military ties to the Philippines and smooth over relations with Vietnam. This is pretty hypocritical considering their imperial!st wars against BOTH countries in the past.
    I’m 100% opposed to a war between Vietnam and China (Vietnam has been through so much hell already), and also between the Philippines and China. However, I don’t give the US any legitimacy in trying to throw its weight in a dispute that’s happening at the other side of the Pacific Ocean. IF the US continues this and if Japan poses a real threat to China, then I fully support China’s right to defend itself.
    As for North Korea, again, they’re only isolated because the US/EU have isolated them through sanctions. I don’t blame North Korea for h@ting the West, when these sanctions are only aimed at hurting their people. The US holds joint military exercises each year with South Korea, which the North rightly sees as a threat to its existence.
    All that being said, while I don’t agree with everything in North Korea, they have had some tremendous achievements due to social!sm. They actually had a higher standard of living than the South up until the 1980s. This, after the US pretty much destroyed all their infrastructure during the Korean War. I support their right to sovereignty and independence.
    Another reason why I like the Soviet Union is because they provided an alternative to social!st/third world countries who wanted to chart and independent path. After the collapse of Soviet Union, that’s when North Korea and Cuba, and also Russia and the Eastern European states, fell into recess!on.
    …………… BTW I’m pretty sure SLAM has the word social!sm censored. I can never make a post with that word intact.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    @ chubachuchi: tbh I haven’t been following these events that closely. But is China being the bully right now? They are the strongest country in that region, and Vietnam does have a reason to be cautious about China since there was some bullying throughout history (which I’m completely against), but I think we need to look at this in a wider frame. Once again, US imperial!sm rears its ugly head (I know, this sh!t is starting to sound like a Star Wars movie, lol).
    The US has been trying to contain China’s growing influence, and have used the Spratly Islands conflict to strengthen military ties to the Philippines and smooth over relations with Vietnam. This is pretty hypocritical considering their imperial!st wars against BOTH countries in the past.
    I’m 100% opposed to a war between Vietnam and China (Vietnam has been through so much hell already), and also between the Philippines and China. However, I don’t give the US any legitimacy in trying to throw its weight in a dispute that’s happening at the other side of the Pacific Ocean. IF the US continues this and if Japan poses a real threat to China, then I fully support China’s right to defend itself.
    As for North Korea, again, they’re only isolated because the US/EU have isolated them through sanctions. I don’t blame North Korea for h@ting the West, when these sanctions are only aimed at hurting their people. The US holds joint military exercises each year with South Korea, which the North rightly sees as a threat to its existence.
    All that being said, while I don’t agree with everything in North Korea, they have had some tremendous achievements due to social!sm. They actually had a higher standard of living than the South up until the 1980s. This, after the US pretty much destroyed all their infrastructure during the Korean War. I support their right to sovereignty and independence.
    Another reason why I like the Sov!et Union is because they provided an alternative to social!st/th!rd world countries who wanted to chart and independent path. After the collapse of Sov!et Union, that’s when North Korea and Cuba, and also Russia and the Eastern European states, fell into recess!on.
    BTW I’m pretty sure the word social!sm censored. I can never make a post with that word intact.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    omg SLAM won’t let me post in response to you, chuba.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    wtf… okay sorry for that.
    Now I really gotta each lunch, then have supper like 2 hours later. LOL. Peace everyone.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    Again you’re an ignoramus who clearly has not learned much despite your age. Do you even know what sharia law is? Because as a Muslim I know what it is in its entirety and I can tell you with little to no doubt that it is no longer implemented in its entirety.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    ^Duh it’s not implemented in it’s entirety.
    .
    Never said it was.

  • Allenp

    Teddy you have some blind spots but keep talking because your viewpoint is an important one. You too James. I agree and disagree with both of y’all at different junctures.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    ..you CLEARLY didn’t say that and in no way implied otherwise but ok continue to save face. Anyways, it’s insane because there’s atrocities everywhere, and it’s frustrating. But you do a little and hope it means a lot. I respect everyone(Lake & Teddy too)for the discussion in here I never thought people would discuss this on Slam & thus this is my fav. message board now. You guys are quite smart, I feel a couple are wrong & ignorant but discussing is important. I say that to say, you cannot discuss one thing without another arising because the suffering of the world is endless.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Teddy needs to go to the clink

  • http://slamonline.com Chubachuchi

    Damn this thread is going off

  • http://gmail.com z

    Just a couple points in defense of my fellow commie teddy: the world is in EXTREMELY bad condition right now, which is why hes an extremist. Only extremists have the right answers. Something i notice alot of you seem to be doing is equating support for communism with support for china and the ussr. Its not. I dont even consider china to be communist (this is somethin james already pointed out actually) ever since mao’s death in the 70s. The ussr ceased to be on a path toward communism the moment lenin died. But most important, a true communist understands that government is not what our allegiance is to; the people are. So just because people consider china or n korea communist doesn’t mean they are, in fact many of their policies over the past 30-40 years point more toward proto-fascism. Absolutely the US and other “democracies” would like people to brand these countries as Communist–so that communism, a very seductive ideology, would be discredited in the minds of simpletons such as redd or the philosopher. This is a small aspect of the theme of the oligarchies in “liberal democracies” that life isnt perfect here in usa but its sure better than in the “communist countries!” Nonsense. Those countries are only considered communist by people who are anticommunist and the gullible naive folks who believe the lies of the power structure.

  • http://slamonline.com Chubachuchi

    ^Exactly why this talk irks me. Communism as the world generally knows is synonymous with Stalin, Mao, Pot,etc, basically hardliners. That totalitarian view is what’s considered communism now and has been for a long time, even Russia and its former satellites consider it like that. I can see you’re view and Teddy’s (is it?) more clearly now but Communism as Lenin knew it is dead now, it lived for a very short period. If anything you should blame Stalin’s midget @ss for messing up the definition of communism, he really deviated from Lenin, and sadly other communist leaders followed his example. These hardliners created the hate for communism.

  • http://gmail.com z

    To sum things up: if you’re a humanist/environmentalist living in the 21st century, communism is the correct ideology for you. Is there much that can be adapted from other ideologies? Yeah sure i think objectivity is an intellectual virtue so i wont pretend that communism cant be adapted in some ways to fit the particular needs of our time (the ecological CRISIS first and foremost, income injustice, rising jingoism, etc). But overall there’s no question that we need to reevaluate our current set of values.

  • http://gmail.com z

    @chubachuchi you’re absolutely right i HATED stalin for a long time, but as i told teddy earlier in the thread, ive recently begun to appreciate the few positive things he did contribute and thus reevaluate the concept of “enlightened despots.” Mao i feel didnt sell out communism for his own personal power like uncle joe but did he have any better an impact? James makes some great arguments that ultimately not…basically its upto young folks like me (and you and teddy im assuming) to redefine communism from that bs that the anticommunists have been passing off as communism for so long thanks to corruption from stalin, pol pot, kim jong il

  • http://gmail.com z

    Also i would point out that all of you arguing that we as humans are essentially just evil and its not the capitalist system that should go are products of the capitalist value system and perhaps if you would reevaluate your values (i.e. adopt some more egalitarian/communistic values) then you might have a more optimistic opinion of humanity’s ability to thrive together.

  • james aka…

    Z, you didn’t read where i praised fidel castro and ho chi minh then. No defence for a stalin supporter.

  • james aka…

    As for Marx, his criticisms of the basic struggle for control of the means of production are more relevant now than they were in the 1950′s, as relevant as during the guilded age. The criticism of the privatisation of all resources, even to prevent someone from accummulating the bare mininmum outside the capital producing sphere is important because we live in an era where the idea of minimum wage is widely considered to be equal to the gulag in the mind of citizens. I have spent my whole adult life trying to get social democrats elected to office, and live in a riding (congressional disctrict for US readers) that had the former leader of the NDP, whom I helped to get elected, and admire philophically. The NDP would be something beyond the pale in the US: think of a political party full of Bernie Sanders or Dennis Kucinich except with a hope of getting elected.

  • james aka…

    Sharis is a wide ranging term that has been widely been blown out of proportion to its practice anywhere. If I replaced it with Talmudic law, no one would rankle. What people object is stories of stoning etc, but those aren’t common even in nations that are very conservatively islamic. When you hear about stonings in the news, the venues are in nations that are largely lawless (somalia, Afghanistan), or where there is a low level battle over religion and government control (Nigeria). Stoning is not a common practice anywhere though. Apparently 7 nations have it codified in law, but it’s highly uncommon. When people talk about instituting sharia in say my home province, they’re talking about the use of provisions to settle divorces and other matters handled by civil law. I think its unjust in these circumstances too, because of it’s sexist character in allocating property, but it’s not something we need to worry about in anyway here. The more troubling thing is that though not practiced in the islamic world very much, stoning is considered poltically popular in several islamic nations, which could bode ill for the future of the people in thos nations.

  • james aka…

    Teddy, I didn’t say one word in support of US policy in afghanistan, not one, so you’re just making up a point of view and attributing it to me. What I said was that the USSR bears full responsibility for turning the place in to hamburger with its invasion and occupation of the nation, the same thing I say about vietnam vis a vis the US. THe same thing I’m saying in regards to Mao and STalin. You’ll notice I haven’t said one word regarding capitalism or state socialism in regards to these condemnations because that’s not what I’m talking about. Economics is another subject altogether and I’m not interested in that here. I’m talking about 10′s of millions of bodies and I’m talking about imperial behaviour. You’ve got a blind spot for a mass murderer and defend him based on it seems politcal offiliation, which is literally no different than say someone of an evengelical background supporting the war in Iraq because their guy did it, while condeming the previous guys incursions into Serbia on the same grounds. Not in one post did I say anything positive about US imperialism or western imperialism. I’ve made no argument supporting the take over of north america as a civilizing thing, or the slave trade as positive because eventually things smoothed out. AS I said in my early commments on here, I agree with your politcal outlook vis a vis the US, but I will never stand for someone supporting stalin anyway. Stalin was explictily the same as Hitler the end. It doesn’t matter what he did for his nation or people positively because he litterally murdered millions of his own people, invaded nations and murdered those citizens as well. There is no equivocating on this point.

  • james aka…

    Z, economics has been a minor part of the discussion thus far. Imperialism and mass murder are my focus because they matter greatly.

  • james aka…

    I think moderators may be overwhelmed by the comments on here, not because of their content but because Teddy’s observasion about Social ism is correct.

    Teddy, the total killing by Japan and Germany in World war 2 is roughly equal, but the final solution program of processing and murdering civilians which we call the holocaust is not equalled by any one thing the japanese did. It may not matter to a dead person whether or not they were burried alive by the japanese after being captured in an invasion, or murdered in a nazi death camp, but there is no single attocious program initiated by the japanese that is as large as the holocaust. If you count the holocaust as one of many nazi war crimes, and then compare total civilian death initiated by germany to those of japan though, it’s likely a wash. the wild card would be classifying dead in Eastern block countries as attributable to pre nazi agression (ie killed by stalin as he was taking his parts, or killing in his own empire) versus post. As nations, China and Russsia suffered the largest total number of killed, and we do nothing to acknowledge their suffering, nor the radicalizing effect that this would have had particularly in regards to china after the war. As an anology, the killing of the Khmer Rouge may never have occurred without the US bonbing of cambodia. I’m always amazed by the vietnemse response to a century of invasion by france, china and the US in NOT producing as awful a state as could be imagined. The fact that Ho chi Minh reached out directly to the US repeatedly prior to the invasion of south vietnam is a testement to how awful the US policy was in the region. The US could have had a communist government ally well before nixon’s trip to china, and it could have had a more productive relationship from then forward with the Soviets and the Chinese decades sooner.

  • http://www.nba.com/knicks danpowers

    true @ james, the cia and people in charge in the usa are traditionally great in gathering information and facts but awfully incompetent in analysis and judgement of their material. e.g. 80s in afghanistan by creating the al quaida, 50s guatemala when they spit on democracy and turned a promising country into a development country or after war germany when they wanted to turn the country into an agraric sector and the us american public, led by their housewifes put pressure on them so that they were forced to help germany develop (which turned out to be a big profit for both, germany and the us up to day and which wouldve been a desaster if us authorities and cia wouldve done what they were first going to do). coonservatives shouldnt be allowed to decide or rule anything but their own households. and btw, talking about holocaust and genocide – to me you can compare the atomic bomb on japan with the holocaust of the nazis on the jews here in germany. that was a coward and hostile action by the us government. the situation was a little different because japan attacked the usa while the jews in germany were a peaceful comminity. but the atomic bomb hardly killed any soliders or politicians, it killed children, women, old people, civilians, millions of them. but the funny thing is, that the world would be even worse off, if a countries like china or russia wouldve been the strongest military power and world police on earth during the last 100 years. i think the world wouldve suffered by even more hostile stupidity

  • http://www.ebaumsworld.com Germy Lin

    Who gives a d@mn?

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Total whitewashing nonsense again by James. Holy cow.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    White liberal leftists are just as dangerous to the people of the Global South as neo-conservatives. Maybe more so, because they provide the ideological cover for NATO military aggression–paralyzing and immobilizing all radical elements of the left–and ALWAYS participate in the imperialist campaign to demonize non-white leaders. So, even when they claim to have not supported such-and-such military “intervention” (obviously we don’t make war anymore), they’ll give the bullsh!t disclaimer: “Well, at least we removed a tyrant… he was just as bad as us, probably worse. They’re at least better off then they were before!!!” I’m sure those Arab/African natives thank you for bringing them liberalism.
    You cannot talk about imperialism without talking about white supremacy–they are 100% synonymous. It’s like trying to talk about socialism without talking about class struggle. This is basic common sense.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    White liberal left!sts are just as dangerous to the people of the Global South as neo-conservatives. Maybe more so, because they provide the ideological cover for NATO military aggression–paralyzing and immobilizing all radical elements of the left–and ALWAYS participate in the imperialist campaign to demonize non-white leaders. So, even when they claim to have not supported such-and-such military “intervention” (obviously we don’t make war anymore), they’ll give the bullsh!t disclaimer: “Well, at least we removed a tyrant… he was just as bad as us, probably worse. They’re at least better off then they were before!!!” I’m sure those Arab/African natives thank you for bringing them the human right to sell you cheap oil.
    You cannot talk about imperial!sm without talking about white supremacy–they are 100% synonymous. It’s like trying to talk about social!sm without talking about class struggle. This is basic common sense.

  • http://gmail.com z

    Cosign that liberals are as much a part of the rotten, decayed power structure as the conservatives and liberals (such as obama) are even more despicable because they talk a good game, but strictly to pull the wool over people’s eyes.

  • http://gmail.com z

    @james i never said i was a stalinist. The man himself was a corrupt power hungry cold blooded monster, at least he was all of that by the end of the 1920s, prior to that i think he was just a follower of lenin. So dont say im a stalin supporter, it cheapens the rest of your arguments (which are getting progressively weaker, imo).

  • http://gmail.com z

    @james dont get me wrong my man it seems from everything you’ve pointed out that while we disagree on some key points, we both understand that there are incredible deficiencies and inequalities in the politico-economic system as it currently is and that folks such as kucinich are a major step in the right direction. That being said, I’ve tremendously enjoyed you and Teddy’s back and forth, and will always have an open mind to your opinions.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    btw when I say “white” I’m talking about a political construct, i.e. white power over non-whites. I am not talking specifically about anyone’s skin color, as there are obviously some great progressive white people…

  • Allenp

    Teddy
    You have to talk about both, I agree. But I think it is wrong to assume imperialism is a symptom of whiteness. Also white supremacy is a symptom of human supremacy and general bothering. Remember on a global scale “whiteness ” is a relatively new concept. Check out the book “The History of White People” for good info on that.

  • Blakos

    Really enjoyable reading gentlemen. I knew when i read that headline, that there would be an intense debate. I thought it would be around China’s growing influence in Africa.

    Teddy/James. For German genocidal practices in colonial Africa, google search Southwest German colonies. Known now as Namibia.

    Teddy- I am no Marx specialist. But has there ever been a country that has run a system of true communism?

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    @ Allen: You’re right, the concept of whiteness as we know it has only been around for about 500 years or so–but why is that? Doesn’t that coincide with the rise of imperialism, when Europeans began enslaving Africans and plundering the so-called “New World” for gold and silver?
    IMO imperialism and white supremacy are synonymous the same way racism and white supremacy are synonymous in any meaningful context–i.e. within the United States and in the world as a whole. There might be ethnic tension and racial discrimination between non-white groups elsewhere, or even in the US, but these are usually isolated; white supremacy is universal.
    IMO imperialism and white supremacy are conditions necessary for Western powers to maintain their economic exploitation of non-white peoples (including people of color inside the United States) through capitalism. It’s how they rationalize their material gains at the expense of 88% of the world’s population.
    Now, of course, white imperialism is not the only imperialism we’ve seen. The Japanese of the late 1800s – early 1900s, for example, made East Asia a living hell. However, if you compare the lifespan of Japanese imperialism with that of Anglo-European imperialism (which continues today), then it’s not much of a comparison.
    The problem I have when people (not you necessarily) say things like “Oh, all humans enslaved each other,” or “I’m sure if China had the biggest military in the world, they’d be even worse than us” is that: 1.) It whitewashes these crimes, and even justifies them (because if you’re gonna be dominated, be thankful the nice white people did it instead of those crazy savages); and 2.) It doesn’t explain certain events in history.
    The Chinese, for example, sailed to Ethiopia as early as 2nd Century B.C. Given the theory that humans are naturally supremacist/chauvinistic (which is definitely true to a degree), why then was there no East Asian slave economy surrounding Africa? Or vice-versa?
    (thx for the recommendation, I’ll add that one to my list along with Richard Wright’s auto-biography).

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    I know I’m way late to the party here, but I gotta give James his due. Bravo buddy, bravo, that was some excellent commenting. Teddy, stick to basketball.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Well I’m not interested in whitewashing or rationalizing.
    My point is simply that believing that the root of the problem is whiteness can be dangerous. The tactics used by white folks in recent history were a continuation of tactics used since the beginning of human history. Now, the racial construct was a new thing, but the idea of othering your enemy to justify atrocities was not.
    I understand that white folks like to use the atrocities of other people (Oh Arabs had slaves) to minimize the true scope of the actions of their ancestors, and I understand why that is dangerous. But, I also think it’s dangerous to constantly say “Well compared to America, our atrocities aren’t that bad.” That’s the type of logic used by dictators and warlords across the world to justify their corruption once they get into power and to distract the people from the reality that they are doing just as much damage to the people as The West, if not more.
    That’s my only issue. The blame should be spread around, not to allow the West to get a pass, but to make sure that other folks don’t use the big, bad West as cover for their own evil.

  • Kent Kanada

    @Teddy: stfu, you are being schooled by james. Do you realize you have channeling your efforts the last 3 days to all these posts, in a comment section from an anti-poaching video starring Yao Ming, on a basketball website. You at least seem more intelligent, inquisitive, and questioning than the average citizen. But for the love of Stalin get a life and go do something useful, play some f#cking basketball.

    @james: thank you and well done, but I’m glad you already stf(ed)u

  • Loaf

    AlLenp with the rational and sensible comment once again, good work!

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