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Friday, May 17th, 2013 at 2:15 pm  |  210 responses

Phil Jackson Says Michael Jordan is Better Than Kobe Bryant (VIDEO)



The Zen Master is the middle of heavy promotion for his new book, and there’s no better way to drum up interest in the oeuvre than to dig up the old Michael Jordan vs Kobe Bryant debate (being the only man to have coached both players, Phil Jackson’s opinion counts quite a bit.) According to Phil, who appeared on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno on Thursday, there really is no debate. Jackson also discussed the Los Angeles Lakers’ disastrous hiring of Mike D’Antoni.

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  • http://twitter.com/ChillFrom91Til Allan

    Water is wet..

  • Pingback: Phil Jackson Says Michael Jordan is Better Than Kobe Bryant (VIDEO) | PhilaPhans – Sixers' Foul Line – 76ers (Blogs – Forums – Message Board)

  • http://twitter.com/1993Freckles Conor O’Hara

    He said that Jordan has bigger hands and that he was a more consistent team player. I watched this last night & wondered how media would spin it.

  • anon

    This isn’t opinion, it’s fact.

  • RayJr

    The comments on this are going to be 100+

  • KingBenjamin

    Not once in this interview did Phil Jackson say that Michael Jordan was better than Kobe Bryant.

  • U Want Da Pipe?

    The headline is referring to a few excerpts from his upcoming book.

  • spit hot fiyah

    he (d’antoni) is the best coach for this group of guys LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

  • bike

    Okay, someone need to start a pool betting on what Kobe’s response will be when asked about Phil’s statement.

  • Junior Taylor

    Why does every single conversation that involves basketball always boils down to MJ vs Kobe, Kobe vs LeBron and MJ vs LeBron? You would think that those were the only players to ever play in the League.

  • http://twitter.com/trueballer4lif1 Melvin flynt

    air jordan is the goat…!

  • http://twitter.com/trueballer4lif1 Melvin flynt

    kobe whole style comes from mj…………

  • Corky

    In related news…

    Phil Jackson says the sky is blue.

  • MUBWAR

    well recently the nba was dominated by these guys. MJ had it roughly between 89 and 98, kobe between 2005 and 2010, and now the league belongs to the King. for guys that were born around the late 80′s, anything before Jordan is considered antics.

  • melvo

    He didn’t say ‘MJ is better than Kobe’ exactly, but that’s definitely what he meant. It would have been a slap in Kobe’s face to say it verbatim. I agree, and am glad a credible voice said it too.
    Also, I loved how that LA crowd didn’t make a sound when he said what he said.

  • melvo

    He didn’t say that exactly, but he implied it from his comments.

  • Redd

    He’s a Chicago Bull..of course he’s better lol.

  • Redd

    I hate Jay Leno..

  • MUBWAR

    so this is tmz now where implying means putting a stamp on it?

  • ChosenOne

    The thing that most people get confused with when people get asked who is a better PLAYER (just an individual Basketball player, and nothing else) between MJ and Kobe (or anyone for that matter), is that these ‘fans’ instantly say one person over another for what they did in their CAREER rather than what they can do as a player. I’m glad Phil used intangibles and the comparisons of their offensive and defensive games rather than just bailing out and saying something sh*tty like “MJ cause he has 6 rings”… saying that is lazy and irrespective from the point of the question. They both had different paths… different careers.

    When comparing these two, keep it to their actual game.

  • Hoopdreams

    Thank god. Somebody with some sense.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk
  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk
  • shockexchange

    It unfair to compare Horry Jr to a player like MJ who could carry a team by himself. In the Shock Exchange’s opinion, a much better comparison would be between Horry Jr and Robert Horry.

  • shockexchange

    It unfair to compare Horry Jr to a player like MJ who could carry a team by himself. In the Shock Exchange’s opinion, a much better comparison would be between Horry Jr and Robert Horry.

  • melvo

    Not necessarily, but are you saying that you didn’t interpret his statement like that? You’re definitely right in saying that he didn’t say that MJ is better than Kobe like the title implies, but I didn’t hear him say anything to support the argument that Kobe was better.

    Also, F**K TMZ.

  • melvo

    Not necessarily, but are you saying that you didn’t interpret his statement like that? You’re definitely right in saying that he didn’t say that MJ is better than Kobe like the title implies, but I didn’t hear him say anything to support the argument that Kobe was better.

    Also, F**K TMZ.

  • LakeShow

    It’s never a slap in the face to not be as good as MJ.
    In fact, the opposite, i’d argue.

  • JoeMaMa

    Magic Johnson must hate these discussions. In terms of cut throat scoring, Magic’s not there; that falls to Michael, Kobe. But he was a team first guy and brought his teammates up – Michael was known to cut his teammates down to pieces, and Kobe apparently isn’t making any new friends with his guys. The Bulls and Lakers organizations both realized what gems they had and put complementary pieces around both guys (Scottie/Pippen, HoGrant/Bynum, so on, so forth…), and I’m not besmirching their games – both Michael and Kobe have won. But basketball being a team game, you’d think that Magic would get more love and recognition. He wasn’t a prototypical closer, but if I’m starting a team right now, I’m looking at Magic, Lebron, Oscar as my guys. They simply don’t get enough respect, based almost completely on their willingness to share, as opposed to jack.
    Don’t mistake this as anything against MJ/Kobe. But damn…MAGIC, MAN!!

  • Lloyd

    He definitely pointed out all the ways that MJ is better than Kobe, and
    not once did he point out how Kobe was better than MJ (unless I missed something). Match, MJ.

    Not everything has to be said to be said. It’s never that black and white. Welcome to the world buddy.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    it’s a compliment to Kobe that they are even compared so much. It’s not a slap at all to say Jordan was better. That’s just a statement of fact.

  • ChosenOne

    Kobe has replied to it on his Twitter…

  • melvo

    But since Phil was both of their coaches, he probably thinks that it would be wrong to say Jordan was better than Kobe directly like that.

  • http://twitter.com/apowellAdvocate Allen Powell II

    And Phil likes ‘em young.

  • http://www.facebook.com/priceperhead1 Jake Richards

    Kobe is really a great player. Very competent but… Jordan is jordan…

  • ChosenOne

    It’s hard to believe Jeanie is 51 years old!
    She is just too sexy..

  • melvo

    But I agree that Jordan was better.

  • TR

    I feel you man, Magic stylistically had a huge influence on the game also. You look at a guy like J-Kidd and you can see how much of what he did was influenced by my man Ervin.

  • flight_7

    Kobe was definitely more skilled then MJ, ball handling, three pointer etc, but MJ was unquestionable the better player

  • MUBWAR

    lool true f tmz

  • playa

    daaaaaaaaamn that’s a really good one dude

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Nah he said what really separated them was Jordan’s abilities as a leader and defender. Thats pretty clear.

  • http://twitter.com/AjpDos Allen Powell

    Actually to be fair Oscar cut his teammates down too.

  • robb

    Nooooo reallly??? on another note, every time I hear how Fredo Corleone and Mitch chose D’antoni over Phil makes me wanna puke. They just had to wait two days and Phil would have said yes, but no. “Mike’s the best coach for this group of players” yeaaaaah riiiiiiight. Idiots.

  • The Seed

    KeithMcDowell stated:

    The truth Jackson will never talk about all the bad things
    MJ did. Gamling, affairs, punching other teammates when he didn’t the
    ball.

    Mj was so bad that even though he his most popular player
    in Bulls history – Mj and the Bulls dont even say hi to each other. MJ
    cant even get a free ticket to the game.

    Jackson hatred for Kobe runs deep even though he moved on. He still does not and will never have any respect for Kobe. period.

    So yes, Jackson will highlight MJ success and down play Kobes.

    For example Mj shot 50% and Jackson say’s that was a better performacne than Kobes 81.

    Really,
    the Lakers with down by 20 points. Walton, Brown, Smush and other
    non-essential players were playing with Kobe. Bottomline its was a 5 on 1
    game and Kobe won!

    Watch the games yourself. Just from that one comparison shows that Jackson is a Kobe hater.

    Yes I said it.

  • The Seed

    kaizersozhe stated:

    This is one of the really classless moves by PJ, writing
    about players still active and divulging what went on in the locker
    room. I’m no Kobe apologist, but given MJ’s reputation for being a stark
    raving a**hole, PJ’s comparisons ring (no pun intended) more like
    score-settling or rumor-mongering (to sell his book) than actual fact. I
    thought PJ might be the one coach above all that. Too bad he’s just as
    petty as the rest of the league.

    For example, “Michael’s superior
    skills as a leader.” Really? Stories of MJ’s locker room tirades and
    tantrums are LEGENDARY in the NBA, as much as if not more than his Game 6
    dagger against Utah, the Flu Game, and all the rest.

    Did Kobe
    ever punch a teammate in the locker room? No? Well, MJ did. At least
    twice, and knowing that the staff and team would protect him if it
    turned into a fight. That’s what we call a coward and a bully.

    And
    “Jordan’s unexpected appearance” in PJ’s office after his baseball
    stint. Come ON – everyone knows MJ took that time off to avoid being
    suspended by the league for his rampant gambling.

    Then there’s his
    Hall of Fame induction speech, which will go down as the most bizarre,
    hate-filled, and adolescent of all time. He called out his 8th grade
    hoops coach, for crying out loud.

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/471875-blashpemy-the-truth-about-michael-jeffery-jordan

  • The Seed

    Another incident includes an actual physical confrontation with a
    teammate. The Bulls were in practice when Will Perdue laid a hard
    screen on Jordan. Imagine someone playing hard in practice!

    This
    did not sit well with His Airness. He was infuriated to the point
    where he felt it necessary to punch Purdue in the face. Yes, you read
    right. To PUNCH HIM IN THE FACE.

    Imagine if you will, an article
    comes out tomorrow that features a story about Kobe Bryant punching Pau
    Gasol in the face because he set too hard of a screen at practice.

    Imagine LeBron
    James punching one of his nice guy teammates in the face like say,
    Zydrunas Ilgauskas. Imagine what the initial reaction and backlash
    would be if this happened once…now multiply it

    Not only did
    Jordan get physical with Will Perdue, he also felt the need to punch
    Steve Kerr in the face! Jordan and Kerr were known to have two
    different opinions on the Collective Bargaining Agreement that was being
    voted on.

    Kerr was a Players Union leader while Michael wanted
    to dissolve the Union. They had many heated discussions about the
    subject. One day during a practice, Steve Kerr was guarding Jordan.

    Kerr
    was reportedly playing tough defense on Jordan- too tough for Jordan’s
    liking. So much so, that he felt the irresistible urge to punch Steve
    in the face. And he followed through with it.

    A Model citizen indeed. Not once, but twice did he feel that it was excusable to physically attack his TEAMMATES.

    You
    can imagine the reaction to anyone that was considered the face of the
    league today (Kobe, LeBron, Durant) attacking their teammates. Everyone
    would have a field day crucifying them. But not so for His Airness…
    his reputation gets a pass.

  • The Seed

    This is how his resume reads for his years in the NBA when the competition was at its highest

    84-85 First Round Loss to the Milwaukee Bucks 3-1

    85-86 Swept First Round By Boston Celtics

    86-87 Swept First Round By Boston Celtics

    87-88 Second Round Loss to Detroit Pistons 4-1

    88-89 Second Round Loss to Detroit Pistons 4-2

    89-90 Eastern Conference Finals Loss to Detroit Pistons 4-3

    After
    the golden age of the 80′s is when Jordan was able to take advantage of
    these former stars, now all old or injured, and take over the league.

    One
    gets so tired of hearing that “Jordan would find a way to win”. It
    makes you wonder why he didn’t find it sooner against the best
    competition.

  • The Seed

    As great a defender as Jordan was as an individual, he was probably
    the third best defender on his team during the second three-peat behind
    Rodman and Pippen.

    Drawing the 3rd offensive option on the other team every night leaves a lot of energy for scoring.

    This
    allowed Jordan to save himself for the offensive side of the floor
    which, when combined with the defense of ALL-NBA defender Pippen and
    ALL-NBA Defender and pound for pound best rebounder of all time Rodman,
    allowed the Bulls to go for the historic 72-10 run.

    Yet
    somehow these two and the other teammates he had are made to look like
    mere role players who just happened to be on the roster while Jordan was
    winning those titles by himself in the 90′s… Some deserve the title
    role player, some do not. One thing is for certain

    Jordan had help.

  • LP @ThisisEther

    Lmaooooooo downvote central!

  • The Seed

    Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player ever. There is no denying that.

    He is also the most overrated.

    For as good as Michael Jordan was, he is not perfect.

    He missed shots. He lost games. He made mistakes.

    There
    is nothing wrong with any of above. What is wrong is that people deify
    him and build him up to be some type of god who could do no wrong on or
    off the court.

    Michael Jordan is Human.

  • Kadavour

    That’s great and all but if Magic’s perfect offense played a perfect defense and the game was to be decided on a last second shot, i want Kobe or MJ taking that shot. Not Bron or Magic.

  • Kadavour

    i agree. Phil mentioned it in excerpts from the book, MJ was more consistent. Consistency wins any day of the week, but if you’re talking pure basketball talent, the edge would go to Kobe.

  • Kadavour

    Jordan had the benefit of being the most successfully marketed player in the history of sports and the inherent protections offered by that mantle. Today’s media environment and information exchange would have a very tough time bottling up that kind of malfeasance.

  • http://twitter.com/1993Freckles Conor O’Hara

    Kobe Bryant ‏@kobebryant:

    “The comparisons are #apples2oranges Wonder what the perception would be if M played wit @shaq instead #differentroles #differentcareerpaths”

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    No it doesn’t. He was playing with a a cast of trash. Just like your boy Kobe in 06 (except against better competition…..per your own admission).

  • http://twitter.com/1993Freckles Conor O’Hara

    Jordan’s teams were bad until ’88, the fourth year of his career. Kobe had poor (or injury-riddled) teams between 2004 & 2007. Three years as well. Four, if you count this season. The 90′s NBA was a linear League wherein the defender was allowed to use his hands more but didn’t experience a layer-enabling European defensive structure, in 2001.

    Jackson said that Kobe shot marginally better than Kobe, offensively. Or, “negligibly”. He said that Jordan would just drive through opponents while Kobe would outsmart his opponents’ defences out of necessity for their respective structures.

    Only one of Jordan’s legendary Finals opponents would have been greater than the worst of Kobe’s seven – the Sonics superior only to the Nets – per Defensive Efficiency Ratings (Team), and through observation.

    Individually-speaking, at 34, when he could muster the energy:

    http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2013/1/16/3881754/kobe-bryants-new-defensive-role-is-ingenius

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    LOL wow that is very very ignorant. I’m not even addressing that. Sorry I said anything.

  • Drig

    THIS. WHY IS IT SO HARD?

    Jordan’s D was better than Kobe’s though.

    His leadership and O……umm……not so much……

  • http://twitter.com/1993Freckles Conor O’Hara

    Kobe Bryant ‏@kobebryant:

    “The comparisons are #apples2oranges Wonder what the perception would be if M played wit @shaq instead #differentroles #differentcareerpaths”

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    I don’t.
    .
    Michael Jordan cared about winning. Not besting his teammates. As soon as he learned to win, that’s how he played. Kobe experienced winning, but gave it up because he put his own selfish needs above winning. I don’t wonder.

  • http://twitter.com/1993Freckles Conor O’Hara

    smh

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Which player at a point where he got what he originally wanted demanded a trade, was recorded bashing other teammates, was criticized by his coach for causing the problems in his last book, then caused in season discontent within his team? In what situation and what season did Shaq ever get criticized for his play or how he treated his teammates (outside of Kobe?) – if you are really this ignorant as to the history of the Lakers and what broke them up, you need to do some research. What are you, 19? You were probably 6 when the Lakers won their first title. And not old enough to have a memory when Kobe played his first game? Or are you really a basketball watching adult who lives in this naive a bubble?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Ugh. Kobe fans use the Shaq argument both ways. As a crutch against Jordan, and as a roadblock everywhere else.
    .
    If the comparison comes up. It’s fair to say Jordan was better. It’s fair to say he was a better defender. A better leader. And a more disciplined player. These things were/are obvious if you watched both careers. ALL evidence points to these opinions. And it’s not like by saying them there is, or should be much actual controversy. The issue is with why Phil Jackson said them, and if its appropriate. Not if what he said or wrote was right. What has been shown clearly was.
    .
    Freckles 1993 aka “Conor”, and all the other kids out there who were unfortunate enough to only see Kobe’s career don’t help the situation either by perpetuating a bunch of ignorance.
    .
    It’s not fair to Kobe’s magnificent career for this narrative to always be spun against him. He is fncking amazing and he should be marveled. Lets let him play his career out and then talk about and compare him appropriately. This is stupid. And it makes his younger fans looks stupid.

  • http://twitter.com/Jzakoni D dot Sanchez

    MJ the great

  • RKJ92

    butt-hurt.

  • Narooman

    what no one is saying here is Kobe immitates MJ, and as great as Kobe is a copy is never as good as the real thing! when you immitate Jordans moves you cant be as good as him doing it.

    plus Jordan changed the game, Kobe did not change basketball culture he was the most skilled player for a period i even doubt Kobe has as much of an innpact as LeBron is having or Sahq had.
    no disrespect to Kobe but MJ was better and after they both retire there is a good chance LeBron might be better!

  • Drig

    Jordan’s a better defender. No two ways about it.

    He’s more disciplined as a player as well. True.

    He’s a better leader? No. Exactly how is he a better leader? Especially after witnessing the various roles played by Kobe this season?

  • Drig

    Not gonna argue too much about what Kobe did. He admitted that he wanted to be the ONLY alpha on the team and win.

    However, Shaq was known to form cliques and ride other players hard.

    He tried to turn Eddie against Kobe.He hated Eddie because he choked during the clutch in POs. He hated NVE because he was a cancer.

    We know all of this about Kobe because Kobe had to rise up in the shadow of another dominant star player. Jordan didn’t have to go through that.

    Different career paths. Plus, as I keep reiterating in these kinda posts, Kobe’s a perimeter oriented scorer. Jordan’s a post oriented scorer.

  • http://www.facebook.com/starkpwnsyou Joshua Maria Peter Bautista

    Having a couple million dollars help, and i think most of the people in the world having her first name is pretty attractive, and some are just absolutely amazing, like this person I knew from college

  • http://www.facebook.com/OMGitsKINGDAVID Kinq David II

    Duh !!!

  • http://www.facebook.com/OMGitsKINGDAVID Kinq David II

    Kobe had more help !!!

  • Drig

    Actually, Kobe’s more skilled than MJ.

  • pposse

    he’s (MJ) a better leader cause he led his team to championships every single year he was in his prime.

  • pposse

    he played in chicago, if d rose ever did something like that right now he too would get a pass. It aint NY or LA.

    Kobe’s great but lets not get into character flaws here

  • Narooman

    As are many playes these days because every aspect of the sport has become more professional, the training, conditioning, medical care …. every thing i mean just look at how many explosive little men there are in the leauge they shoot better drive better and so on does it make them better than Isiah?
    skills are relevent if you consider the margin with other superstars in the leauge.
    who was as skilled as jordan in the post thoese days?(at the 2 spot)
    do you get my point.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Just look up what Phil Jackson said in his latest book, it explicitly says Jordan was the better leader, and explains why. Don’t know how you can not trust that.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    And did you really say that about this season? If he was a great leader we wouldn’t have spent the season questioning everyone’s effort. Lol, this season was a glaring example of Kobe being a poor leader with his words – off-court behavior. He is great at leading by example most of the time. Except as you said, he lacks discipline and often trusts himself entirely too much compared to how much he trusts his teammates.
    .
    Nobody said Kobe was a horrible leader. He just isn’t Michael Jordan.
    .
    From Phil Jackson,
    —- “”One of the biggest differences between the two stars from my perspective was Michael’s superior skills as a leader,” Jackson said. “Though at times he could be hard on his teammates, Michael was masterful at controlling the emotional climate of the team with the power of his presence. Kobe had a long way to go before he could make that claim.”"

  • Caboose

    You are aware Jordan won DPOY right? And if the opponent’s best player was a 1 or a quick 2, Jordan would check them?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Kobe was more skilled. Jordan applied his skills better.

  • Drig

    Players are better athletes these days. Players were more skilled in the 80s and 90s.

  • Drig

    Dude no. He led his team to a championship every single year in his prime not just because of his leadership but also because he had a championship caliber team to help him win those damn rings.

    Real talk.

  • The Seed

    Pippen had to switch to guard Magic, stop acting like Micheal held people in check. When I watched MJ played, I never stated ooh MJ is shutting him down on defense. LOL

  • Caboose

    Let me make this simple.
    Jordan > Bryant at:
    Overall scoring ability
    Ball handling
    Court Vision
    Team leadership
    Perimeter defense
    Post defense
    Help defense
    Finishing at the rim
    Off the dribble jumpers
    Rebounding
    Efficiency

    Bryant > Jordan at:
    3 point shooting
    Low post moves

  • Drig

    And this is where I find an issue. How was MJ a master at controlling the emotional climate of the team??? I mean, he was always just as demanding and ruthless as Kobe. He didn’t cuddle his teammates ever. Like Kobe. Teammates weren’t too fond of either of them but respected them enough to fall in line.

    Both of their leadership styles were at their best when they had a secondary player who had a commanding presence.( Pippen vs Fisher )

    I’m not disagreeing with what you said. And if Phil did say that, then I have no qualms about it being used in arguments. BUT, I don’t see the logic of how he came to the conclusion if both of them used the same style……….I mean, does the book have any instances highlighting the difference between them or anything?

  • Dagger

    Magic was spectacular in the clutch as a scorer and a distributor. The only guys I take over him for that last shot are Bird and Jordan (in that order).

  • Caboose

    On Kobe, I should also say he has more “WTF Shots” or makes more shots that seem like they dont have a prayer.

  • Caboose

    if you’re old enough to have seen MJ play and STILL talk the way you do, I just..wow. Anyways, please check Jorfan’s defensive numbers. That’s my very simple counter argument

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Name one time in Jordan’s years a successful leader where he problems with teammates? And not in practice where every player has problems. Jordan was ruthless like Kobe, but he wasn’t ruthless away from the court. I mean, just Kone’s relationship with Andrew Bynum itself is proof that Kobe was worse wih his teammates than Jordan.
    .
    And that is a quote from Jackson’s book.

  • Dagger

    Late in his career, I definitely give MJ the edge in low post moves (and certainly low post effectiveness). But maybe my memory is playing tricks on me. Nice post.

  • The Seed

    Great point, MJ never played with a dominate big man. Anybody who have watched the Lakers over the years, understand when Pau was out. Kobe easliy was shooting over 50% from the field, because he was more post oriented, but with Gasol, Bynum, Howard and Shaq, he had to be perimeter oriented.

  • Drig

    MJ can’t defend Magic. Yes.

    MJ shouldn’t defend Magic. Also a yes.

    Jordan was, is and will always be a much better all round defender than Kobe ever was.

    On-ball D, Kobe could probably match him for a stretch of games ( not a season’s worth ) but Jordan is simply better than Kobe off the ball.

  • Caboose

    Fans of Kobe calling Jordan a bad leader is like the technicians at Chernobyl calling the 3 Mile Island plant unsafe.

  • Caboose

    Much appreciated.

  • Drig

    Actually, I never called MJ a bad leader.

    I’m only interested in the perception of the general nba fanbase of Kobe’s and MJ’s leadership pattern because they are similar yet the opinions about them are markedly different.

  • Drig

    Kobe’s issue with Andrew was when the FO didn’t put a quality team around Kobe in the 3 year period they promised. Foolish from both parties to think they could’ve built a contender in 3 years but Kobe was promised it and LAL FO didn’t hold their end of the bargain.

    Once the season started and LAL started off well, Kobe didn’t complain once.

    Okay. That was a quote. My bad.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    I didn’t say Shaq was perfect. He just wasn’t the reason LA broke up. Or he isn’t what got the ball rolling if you do want to attribute blame on him

  • Drig

    Kobe definitely was the one who lit the fuse that eventually resulted in the supernova that is the ’04 Lakers. But Shaq didn’t endear himself with the SHOW ME THE MONEY comments either.

    Both acted like spoilt egomaniacs. Both of them, the Lakers and the NBA fans are poorer for it.

  • Dagger

    I question whether you ever watched Jordan play or, if you did, whether you could see him objectively.

    Jordan was the best two-way player ever.

    Some videos to help you remember:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4gigN2zMU4

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVb5x8WIwH8

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Taking out your frustrations on a 22 year old kid, and publicly, is a pretty glaring example of poor leadership. Especially when you are considered the best player in the league. And that’s just the most obvious example. Phil’s words carry more weight then any example I can offer.

  • Dagger

    Yes, because Kobe’s FG% shot up without a great big man on his team, right?

    Wait . . .

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Looool

  • Drig

    Was Shaq a good leader?

    I gave you the circumstances surrounding the tirade. IMO, he was justified to complain about it.

    However, the way it got leaked to the media wasn’t something I liked.

    Listen, here was the best player in the L whose prime was being squandered away on a team which simply couldn’t contend for the title. The same player also was fighting against history and the general public’s perception of him as a player and his standing as an NBA great.

    LBJ has a contender IN HIS PRIME. MJ had a contender THROUGHOUT his prime. Kobe had a contender BEFORE his prime and at the TAIL END of his prime. Again, Kobe’s career path is different. Jordan NEVER faced it. Never faced something similar. For all we know, MJ might’ve reacted in the same way since…….I dunno, both usually react in the same way.

    BTW, I’ve been asking this a lot and I haven’t got a reply yet but has there been any other top 15-20 superstar who’s not had a contender throughout his prime?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    I couldn’t agree more

  • Drig

    Perimeter D – Post D is on-ball D? We talking about season’s worth ratings or just on a skill level?

    Plus, are we talking about a team with no offensive post players or a team with offensive post players? ( Kobe’s FG% minus Pau-Bynum on a good team is around 49-52% for the record )

  • Drig

    Amen!

  • Drig

    No problem lol. Even this staunch Kobe fan wouldn’t go that far lol

  • Drig

    So MJ would’ve been just as efficient in today’s NBA right?

    Wait…..

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

    Foolish argument right?

    I’m not hating on you or Jordan or anything but Kobe showed that he can play effective ball with decent perimeter players and a space in the post in ’09 when Pau and Bynum were out and he shot around 52% for a 15 game stretch easy.

    It’s not that he can’t do it. It’s that a combination of factors prevent him from doing it for an entire season, INCLUDING his own ego and team roster.

  • Dagger

    “Kobe’s FG% minus Pau-Bynum on a good team is around 49-52% for the record.”

    Where did you get that statistic from? What is your sample size?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Elgin Baylor. Oscar Robertson.
    .
    Kobe gave up contending for his individual success in his prime. It’s not like he wasn’t the main reason he was stuck in that situation. .
    Actually he shares blame with the salary cap. As him and Shaq were about to make up a combined 85% of the Lakers cap hit. And with them not getting along, that was a pretty intimidating position to be in for Jerry Buss.

  • Drig

    ’09-’10 season when Pau sat out the first 14 odd games.

  • The Seed

    Kobe is better than MJ at Overall scoring ablitiy, because PHil has stated this, he is retracting now. Aren’t their assists numbers similar career wise. Go check. Team leadership is being overrated. MJ was the man from the beginning. Kobe went to a team that had former All Stars and 3 current All Stars. Kobe led a team to back to back to back NBA FINALS. How many players as the only real superstar have done that. Post defense is wrong, I watched MJ play defense, LOL. Help defense, seriously. MJ had Pippen, Grant, Rodman, young Harper and you got alot of HELP ON D. Off the dribble jumpers is Kobe by far, not close, PHil has stated that Kobe is the better shooter. He is retracting now. Check their Rebounding numbers. Efficiency is different because KOBE is perimeter oriented and MJ was post oriented. So Bryant is a better 3 point shooter and has better low post moves acording to you, but is not efficient, because he played with post players like Gasol, Shaq, Bynum. MJ never played with a post great. WOW,

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Shaq was the good cop leader. He didn’t push anyone too hard. And he joked too much. But from all non kobe accounts he was an absolutely great teammate. Just wasn’t demanding enough.

  • Drig

    Taking out your frustrations on a 22 year old kid, and publicly, is a pretty glaring example of poor leadership. Especially when you are considered the best player in the league. And that’s just the most obvious example.

    Shaq in ’01, ’02, ’03 and ’04. Mind you, the first 3 were before Kobe ruined Shaq’s marriage.

  • Dagger

    Oh, ignore my question above when I asked you for your sample size.

    I’m not hating on you either, but you must know that 15 games is an outrageously small sample size for a career comparison.

    That goes beyond questions like: what teams was he playing? Did they have a chance to adjust their game plans for a new variable (the same issue that blew up Lin’s numbers)? What was his FG% exactly? Where did his shots come from, and would that be sustainable? Etc.

    IMO, a much better sample size with far fewer issues is represented by the 3 seasons after Shaq left and before Gasol arrived. Bynum was drafted in 2005 but was extremely raw and routinely ignored. In those three seasons Kobe averaged between 45 and 46% from the field. His FG% actually rose in 2008-2009 – his first full season with Pau – to 46.7%. And it was never higher than it was when he played with Shaq, at 46.9% in 2001-2002.

    But let’s take a step back: do you really think that a dominant post player reduces the FG% of perimeter players on the same team? That just sounds counter-intuitive, doesn’t it? Kobe still drove all the time with Shaq, and he still posted up with Gasol. He just didn’t do either as well as MJ.

  • Drig

    Well, I’d say Kobe did a good job trying to force some moves outta the FO considering how much Elgin and Oscar won. You sure about the Baylor thing? Didn’t Baylor have West and Goodrich with him?

    And I agree with you about the rest. Which is why Kobe’s career path is different.

    Superstars usually put up huge individual numbers on crap teams near their prime and then spend their prime on a contender. Usually.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    I don’t blame Kobe for trying to force things to happen. But I can’t just ignore it. It was good for his career in the long run. But at the time, it was an issue with his leadership. .
    It’s kind of like a Governor being labelled a poor governor, but he’s a good politician because he gets higher levels of government to side with his plan. .
    I know little about politics. Just trying to draw up a more simple example showing how Kobe was not necessarily a good leader, even though he knew what he needed.

  • Drig

    And you must also know the kind of players Kobe had to play with no? NO decent outside shooter. NO decent ball handler. NO decent shot creator. And Kobe taking on doubles before he even got the ball.

    Considering how teams were willing to double Kobe and teammates were STILL bricking wide open shots, Kobe was justified to and did take a ton of bad shots. That is what ruined his efficiency. That is also what enhanced his legacy.

    I would say playing with Shaq is not good esp. for an all-round player. Kobe never drove all the time with Shaq. If you recollect, Kobe had many iso possessions of what SHOULD HAVE BEEN pick and rolls HAD SHAQ ACTUALLY SET THE DAMN SCREEN well and rolled hard.

    It’s not counter-intuitive. A shot from distance has a lesser chance of going in than a shot from close range. However, a shot over 2 interior defenders who’ve got 4 inches on you with no running start and another defender in your grill from close range has a lesser chance of going in than one from the perimeter over two similar sized players, if you’re talented.

    That’d also help open up the floor for other players. Remember, Pau didn’t spot up as much back in the day.

  • Drig

    I can accept that.

  • pposse

    1997 game 6 NBA finals last time out..MJ turns to steve kerr as he is sipping on his gatorade and tells him ‘be ready”. The time out ends the play starts, MJ gets double teamed and passes to Kerr for the game winning shot; Kobe could only dream of having a moment like that.

  • Gomy Noah

    Kobe has had moments like this with Shaq and Derrick Fisher…

  • Gomy Noah

    Obviously MJ is the better player. I was offended when I was watching First Take and Skip and Stephen were saying MJ is in a different league. That’s ridiculous. Kobe is one of the greatest of all-time and in my opinion and Magic’s, the greatest Laker ever. Of course their in the same league.

    Kobe is a guy who improved year on year. He’s added so much to his game and made adjustments when injured to be just as effective. His ability to adapt is second to none in this game, The guy learnt from MJ after studying him and that should be commended for it.

    Kobe can do things MJ couldn’t do as well like his ball-handling, footwork and 3 point shooting. Even Phil has said he’s the more skilled player.

    MJ is the greatest but if you love the game and MJ you’ve got to respect Kobe what he has done.

  • Gomy Noah

    If people were betting that Kobe wasn’t going to comeback as good as he was this past season, after all this talk, I think he’s going to come back better. Kobe is just built like that.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Their results were markedly different. Even though Jordan had explicit advantages within his situation, we can’t just ignore the results. Kobe has had a hand in blowing up 2 championship teams now. Jordan blew up one, and he just did it by retiring. Not throwing a fit, or teammates under buses.

  • http://twitter.com/1993Freckles Conor O’Hara

    Kobe didn’t punch any of his teammates, Shaq promulgated the intensity of their conflict at least as much as Kobe, & Jackson admits in this book that his view of Bryant was “tainted” in 2003-2004 because of their mutual experiences with sexual assault.

    Shaq was criticized for not playing. At least Kobe was there. Which of the two made a career of changing teams and leaving on horrid terms in each city?

    Ultimately, they both ruined what would have been a massive, decade-spanning dynasty.

  • http://www.facebook.com/evan.boland Evan Boland

    Bingo.

  • http://www.facebook.com/evan.boland Evan Boland

    Sorry, but Jordan is a far better leader. Kobe is isolated and spiteful. Phil said it correctly, Kobe doesn’t have leadership in his bones like Mike.

  • http://www.facebook.com/evan.boland Evan Boland

    Kobe has MORE skills than MJ. I don’t know if that would qualify as him being more skilled, however.

  • Dagger

    Just a few quick points:

    Penny Hardaway, while playing with Shaq, twice averaged 51% from the field (in 77 and 82 games – big sample size).

    Jordan, playing with similarly inept teammates early in his career, averaged north of 50% after his first few seasons.

    The fact is that Kobe’s FG% is lower than Jordan’s because he isn’t as good at taking what the defense gives him. To paraphrase Phil, if his shot isn’t falling he keeps shooting and shooting – often taking terrible shots – instead of concentrating more on other aspects of his game.

    Look, ultimately we’re just nitpicking. Kobe is an all-time great, he just doesn’t quite measure up to Jordan. I’m sure that bugs Kobe, but everyone else should just sit back and applaud both players.

  • Dagger

    “Kobe is better than MJ at Overall scoring ablitiy.”

    There is nothing you can say to concretely support that claim.

    PPG: MJ wins hands down.
    FG%: MJ wins hands down.
    In the clutch: statistical landslide for MJ.

    Although I concede that Kobe has been a better three-point shooter, Jordan’s career average from the 3 is only 1% lower than Kobe’s!

    More to the point, anyone who watched these guys play will tell you that Jordan, as a scorer, has no real rival among wing players in NBA history.

    Is Kobe more skilled? You can make that argument (I wouldn’t). Is he more athletic? Not in the same league. Is he more productive? Absolutely not.

  • Mars

    A.I. is better than….

  • Dagger

    It’s the Martian Manhunter VS Superman.

  • The Seed

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtvRatRkevw&feature=player_embedded

    Uploaded on Aug 7, 2009

    Phil Jackson admits Kobe has more
    skill than Jordan on the YOUTUBE INFORMATION: But Jordan is still the greatest of all time. Kobe is just the most skilled of all time which is why he is so amazing at the
    things he does sometimes.

    I can make very compelling reasons to why Kobe Bryant is better than Michael Jordan.

    1) Kobe Bryant is a better scorer than Jordan. 81 points in one game.
    Kobe also scored 62 points in three quarters. It took Michael Jordan’s 4
    quarters and one overtime to get his best game of 69 points.

    2) Kobe Bryant is more fundamentally sound than Jordan. He is more skilled. Even Phil Jackson stated this.

    3) Kobe Bryant plays in an era where #2 guards are longer and more
    athletic, with guys that come in as defensive specialists, where teams
    constantly double pass the 3 point line. Jordan played in an era where
    #2 guards were shorter, less athletic, and teams allowed him to play one
    on one more.

    4) Kobe Bryant is more clutch. He has hit more clutch shots than Jordan has to date.

    5) Michael Jordan is arguably a better defender. But Kobe is also a good
    defender. This is the one aspect that Jordan has an edge over Kobe.

    6) Kobe is crossing out Jordan’s records one by one. And Kobe has records Jordan could only dream about.

    7) Kobe has faced tougher teams in the Finals. MJ came from a watered
    down era where Magic was way past his prime and Bird was either retiring
    or gone. Now a lot of this has to do with the expansion teams. If you
    think about it the talent pool just wasn’t there in Jordan’s era. Good
    case and point here:

    Just some aspects to chew on in this debate

  • http://www.facebook.com/evan.boland Evan Boland

    Word

  • Caboose

    I’m sorry for the doctor who dropped you as a baby.

  • The Seed

    Jordan vs Kobe – Stats don’t tell the whole story

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9xKmQVinx8

  • The Seed

    David Stern states Kobe is as good as MJ

    Many ESPN Analysts say Kobe is better then Jordan

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckXT-d0pFPg

  • The Philosopher

    The King is better than Kobe, too…

  • The Seed

    You can’t be that dumb, that will never happen. BOOK IT!!

  • The Philosopher

    Well, allow me to retort;
    Phil Jackson, the most dominant coach in the History of professional basketball, has said that he wished that… YOUR GUY would play like THE KING.
    LONG… LIVE… THE KING!

  • The Philosopher

    And Seed, on a more serious note, you HAVE to know what kind of era Jordan’s era was. The Golden Age. The greatest competition, and the greatest players that The League has seen to this very day.
    Of course, Jordan wasn’t going to beat those guys in their prime.
    Neither would Kobe.
    Not even The King…
    Have you really checked Jordan?
    His baseline game. His mid range. His movement without the ball. His efficiency.
    I mean, Kobe has never even broke even shooting the ball. Ever. With weak defense.
    And when has a guy like a Gilbert Arenas give Michael Jordan 60 points?Arenas isn’t even a Hall of Famer.
    This NEVER happens to Jordan… OR, The King.
    It routinely happens on Bryant’s watch.
    You know this, Seed.

  • Conor

    Everything here is irrefutably correct.

  • Drig

    Fisher – Kobe. ‘Nuff said.

  • Drig

    Now, Jordan played in an era when handchecking was allowed but zones weren’t.

    Many notable NBA players have gone ON RECORD to say zones make it tougher for exceptional scorers to score because they got to break down different layers of D.

    Next, I never disagreed with the claim that Kobe’s FG% is lower because of his ego. Yes, it is lower. But it isn’t the only reason. Chicago’s attack pattern put MJ near the post most often than not. Lakers’ attack pattern puts Kobe either in a triple threat position near the top of the key or with a post up near the elbow on one side when the rest of LAL’s bigs spot up on other side.

  • JoeMaMa

    MJ was a ruthless prick on and off the court. He had the reputation of breaking players into pieces who didn’t meet his expectations, and riding others relentlessly. Ex. Toni Kukoc went through the meat grinder with Jordan.
    MJ didn’t have ‘problems’ with teammates because 1) no one would dare go against him, lest they get punched in the face and 2) if they did, it was handled in an era where social media was nil.
    Anyways, different era, different expectations, etc. I wouldn’t call MJ a great leader, but a great winner – noticeable difference there. Looks like he’s leading the Bobcats into ‘worst franchise in the NBA’ category. He out-competed everyone when he played and won championships, and brought the game to new heights – I’ve never seen someone play hero ball and just KEEP WINNING. AMAZING. As such, the legacy washes out well.

  • Drig

    He’s a better ball-handler. Atleast, he used to be before he fcked his hands up beyond recognition.

  • Drig

    Kobe blew up 2 championship teams? Wait, what?

    The 2nd team didn’t blow up. They simply gassed out. Pau was mentally done. Kobe physically broke down. The role players couldn’t put in one more run.

  • Datkid

    lmfaooooo I can’t breathe man

  • Drig

    Gilbert had too much quickness for Kobe or MJ in his prime. Just like AI.

    He had excellent range and he could finish well around the rim.

    He was considered a top 5 guard – not point guard but GUARD – in ’06-’07.

    It routinely happens on Kobe’s watch? WHAT? Kobe does allow his matchups too much space near the 3pt line when he’s conserving energy but it doesn’t happen routinely on Kobe’s watch.

  • Drig

    1. Jordan did that vs a good Celtics team. Kobe did that against a Raptors team which doubled him too late.

    Kobe’s a better scorer but not for the reason you stated.

    4,6,7 are wrong.

    4. Kobe has also missed more shots.

    6. Jordan has many records Kobe can only dream about as well. Scoring titles. 50% FG% barrier etc.

    7. LAL faced some of the weakest teams in the Finals in the 3peat. The WCF were better than most teams MJ faced though. Just wanted to clear that up.

  • Datkid

    Not as many people are mentioning the fact that A)-Jordan was FAR more athletic than Jordan, and B) Jordan has a higher everything. higher field goal, higher point total, higher assist total, higher PER.. everything. you can bring up the fact that Defenses have changed significantly since then, but Kobe’s still ridiculously inefficient and still doesn’t pass enough. at all. Kobe was good at PG for a couple games, but Jordan played pg for months and averaged 30-8-8 There’s a reason he’s never gotten to at least 48 or 49% despite being more offensively skilled than 90% of the league,(and arguably more than Jordan, although it can’t be denied that Jordan was more effective). Defensively it isn’t even a contest. Kobe was an excellent defender in his prime, but he wasn’t a DPOY caliber defender like Jordan or Lebron are. In terms of leadership it’s not close either. Jordan punched Kerr in the face yes, but did that stop them from winning titles? Kobe has actually cost himself titles several times. He should’ve passed more to shaq in 2004(shaq was shooting 60% despite blistering defense, and Kobe was shooting 40%), shouldn’t forced shaq out in 2005(when he still had plenty of ring winning power left in him) There was nothing he could do about 2008 and 2011 though. The only things Kobe has over Jordan are the outside shot, and the crossover(which is probably a function of playing basketball in the late 90′s and early 2000′s)

  • Mako face

    What is indicative and interesting is Bryants twitter response which was mj didn’t have t play with shaq , implying that it held Bryant back in some way or hampered his individual success. Whereas I think mj would have loved to have had the chance to play with shaq. Kobe modelled himself after mj in every way, and came close to duplicating the original as anyone, but it’s hard to be better than someone u idolise so much that it’s reflected in the way u walk, talk, shoot, play the game.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    As a player, Jordan was a great leader. A ruthless leader. Cruel. Not the greatest by any stretch. But great. For the reasons you stated, “MJ didn’t have ‘problems’ with teammates because 1) no one would dare go against him, lest they get punched in the face and 2) if they did, it was handled in an era where social media was nil” and the amount of success he experienced.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    “Had a hand in”. And “single handedly” blew up are 2 entirely different things.
    .
    And that team didn’t need to gas out. They fell apart from the inside out. They lacked any sort of central leadership, especially after Phil left.

  • Drig

    After Phil left, they tried to trade for CP3. Something which Kobe had no idea was happening before “Basketball Reasons” happened. Then came LO mentally breaking down due to reasons off-court and the trade which had NOthING to do with Kobe. Pau was pissed and an emotional wreck for a few days.

    The Lakers FO contemplated getting rid of Fisher, who was the ying to Kobe’s yang over the last 2-3 seasons and finally did that.

    Phil checked out the moment he said he revealed to the team he had cancer. KB was already breaking down due to injuries. Fisher was gone. And Sessions, who played pretty damn well in the regular season, failed so hard in the post-season I actually yearned for Fish’s court vision……..That bad.

  • pposse

    kobe never led shaq anywhere; Kobe and Fisher never had a moment like that either

  • Bassbesteck

    Kobe is the better scorer? Judged by one Game? So is David Robinson a better scorer than Jordan too? Talk about career average in Points per game – Jordan beats Kobe out by a bunch of points. And witj better shooting % that is. An 81 point game is a great thing (as Kobe also is a great player) but he is not a better scorer than Jordan…

  • The Seed

    MJ is an Alpha male, Shaq would not get in shape and did not take the off season seriously. MJ would have gotten in a fight as soon as Shaq disagreed with him. Ask Steve Kerr and Will Purdue.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    The thing is, when Phil told the team that, the teams leader should have kept them together. Idk, I just see a lot of issues with a team with a player like Kobe falling apart like that as a whole. I feel like things would have gone a lot smoother if Kobe were a better leader. Shiiit, things probably would have gone better if they kept Fisher. Since he was the vocal leader on the team.

  • The Seed

    Sorry your not dumb, but very smart, but Phil has stated Kobe is more skilled than MJ. MJ did play in a watered down NBA when he was killing. Drexler was seen as MJ greatest competition then a fat Barkley a steroid Malone, choker Ewing and Reggie who played with lost bandits.

    I wished the Supersonics would have put GP on MJ from the beginning in that NBA Finals, where MJ sucked and I wish Malone would had held on to the ball when MJ stole it from behind. The steroids did not kick in.

    Also, PHILO, Bron needs some meanness to his game and wearing Pink pants don’t do it.

  • Kadavour

    particularly with his consistency. MJ went to what works on a more consistent basis. As Kobe’s athleticism fades, we see him going to those go-to moves and sets more often. I have no doubt that if he focused on a free-throw line down game his career shooting percentages would be much improved.

  • Kadavour

    you would give Magic a last second shot over Michael?

  • Kadavour

    this seems like a comparison over time and not over the scope of both careers. In other words, Michael was a better leader for a longer period than Kobe was. And that’s fair, but to say that at this stage in his career Kobe’s not as good or better is a bit unfair. At the end of the day, we have today’s media market (like this site) to dissect everything these players say publicly. Based on MJ’s history and just balls to the wall competitiveness, it wouldn’t be a stretch to imagine worse from MJ if the tables were turned. Therein lies the crux of my point, it just wouldn’t be crazy to imagine headlines of MJ questioning teammates in today’s game. As I’ve said before, MJ was protected by the media. This isn’t a fair comparison.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    I understand and agree with that. But that didn’t happen. I can’t form my opinion off of speculation when I have a 15 year career for one and a 17 year career for the other to look at. .
    And i agree, as i I said above the comparison just isn’t fair to Kobe, we should let his career play out and then compare him appropriately.

  • The Philosopher

    You’re alright with me, Seed.
    And I wholly appreciate the apology, and the compliment.

  • The Philosopher

    Respect.
    BUT…
    Larry Hughes.
    Allan Houston.
    Arenas.
    I mean, Ray Allen breaks an offensive record in Bryant’s house. In the Playoffs.
    It’s about preference, I ponder.
    But again, I respect your retorts.

  • Narooman

    Thats not the point in my opinion, compare Kobe to LeBron ,Melo(his offensive skillset is amazing) ,healthy Wade, good old AI ….. and then compare MJ to his superstar rivals excluding the centers of the era see what i mean Isiah, Chuck, Magic just how much more skilled was Jordan?
    Kobe and the generation of stars today built their habbits and skills on the past stars(mostly MJ) and if you combine that with their own creativity and athletic ability you get more!
    My point is Jordans game was far ahead of his time and more original (more MJ in a sense) these guys just copy him.
    Plus we have to consider the evoloution of the game itself we talk about Kobe being the better 3point shooter it was more necessary , when MJ was in college there was no 3point line naturally it was not in his game his range was 10-15 feet! and to be honest i am glad he did not take 3s it made his game more beatifull! the range came with age and maturing.

    And its a fact MJ was just so charasmatic what he did on and off the court was cool.

    Finaly his acomplishments are in fewer seasons then an other superstar ,but his peak and Kobes peak are simillar(if Kobe stays at this level after returning his peak might be longer as a result of hard work and progress in the scinse of budybuilding) any way MJ rulled the leauge for the last 6 years of his Chicago stint ,Kobe has not.

  • everythingispolitics

    Attack pattern? They both played the triangle. What are you talking about?

  • everythingispolitics

    None of what you say is true. how old are you? Drexler was the best competition? Huh? you know Jordan came into the league in the 80′s. Bird, Magic, Jordan.

  • Conor

    Yet he and the Bulls won nothing against them… until they were preparing to retire and KAJ had left LA.

  • LP @ThisisEther

    my goodness…Look at that intensity…. He was Terrorizing the league…

  • Bandwagonfan

    I feel u bro

  • Bandwagonfan

    Lebron as well. Noboy won alone. Team game

  • Bandwagonfan

    its cool how u can copy people.

  • Drig

    Ray Allen breaks an offensive record in Bryant’s house.

    Ray Allen also does most of his damage off of multiple screens.

    Basically, Allen didn’t light Kobe up with his superior O. He scored so many points because the Celtics as a team got Bryant off of Allen to score them shots.

    This is usually true. However, Kobe also did allow Allen too much space at times near the 3 line. I’ve already mentioned this.

  • Drig

    If you think Kobe Lakers and the Jordan bulls played the same triangle, you’re wrong.

    If you think Kobe didn’t break the triangle multiple times, you haven’t seen him play.

    Kobe broke the triangle many times because the triangle needed guys who could shoot from the perimeter and shoot it consistently. Kobe was the one guy who could do that for a season’s worth on his rosters.

    And the team plan changed due to this roster’s constraints.

  • Drig

    Elgin Baylor’s game was far ahead of its time. Jerry West’s game was far ahead of its time ( plus, he had range as well ).

    Wilt’s game was so far ahead it’s stupid. And we still haven’t come close to having someone like Magic while we got almost a carbon copy of MJ in KB. ( LBJ is getting there though….. )

    Don’t see nobody praising them as effusively as they do to MJ and KB now do we for being firsts now right?

  • Drig

    Except Kobe was breaking down man. His play reflected it. Pau was already mentally checked out. His final few games showed that.

    You’re right. LAL should’ve retained Fisher. But I’m glad they traded him. He didn’t want to retire and become an asst. coach. He was too much of a liability for large parts of the game and he wanted the starter’s role.

  • Datkid

    Drig do you actually think MJ couldn’t guard prime Gilbert Arenas? lmfaooooooooo

  • Datkid

    oh are we really acting like Jordan never broke the triangle either? Please tell me you’re not trying to act like zones are the reason one of the most skilled offensive players of all time isn’t that efficient. Seriously. it’s not like he can’t shoot either.

    oh and when Dwayne wade played with shaq his FG% went from .46 to 4.95. and then in 09 he got to .491 with handchecking,zones, double teams and all that jazz. and kobe’s a lot more skilled and a lot less injured sooooooooooo….. yeah. you don’t have a point here.

  • Drig

    I didn’t say MJ couldn’t guard him.

    I simply meant that given the right tools and the right slice of luck, even a player with limited but valuable strengths like Gilbert Arenas could have a legit shot of going supernova over Kobe or Jordan.

  • Datkid

    oh yeah? name somebody who’s not a hall of famer who went supernova on MJ. and penny doesn’t count. I’m waiting.

  • Drig

    If you think Pippen let Jordan break the triangle as much as Kobe used to do it, you’re fooling yourself.

    Next, I ain’t the guy who came up with the hypothesis that zones slow down individual players more than iso or semi-zonal D. It’s a fact that today’s complex defenses are more of a hindrance to offensive players than any man to man D ever is. It’s the same reason why there’s a new emphasis on team D in the modern era.

    I never said Jordan couldn’t be efficient in this era, did I? Great players like Kobe and MJ can get theirs regardless of the era. Dunno where you got the feeling that I was slighting MJ.

    Wade faced handchecking…….um, what? Did I miss anything? When did this happen?

    When DWade stopped playing with Shaq and started playing with a washed up Jermaine O’Neal, his FG% achieved a similar spike. What does that teach us? Absolutely zilch.

  • Drig

    Why exactly doesn’t Penny count? Name me someone other than Arenas who went supernova on KB.

  • Datkid

    Because Penny is a lock for the HOF if his body doesn’t betray him. and because a healthy Penny is way better than a healthy Gilbert Arenas. and also Penny actually gave MJ problems which is something Kobe never did and probably never could do.

    ALLAN HOUSTON. LARRY HUGHES. refer to the @disqus_TS5ENDusN3:disqus ‘s post below me.

  • Datkid

    I’m just saying that it happened. I actually did not say that at all.

    and no you aren’t the guy who hypothesized zones make it harder to score. but you did just use it in this very argument. so what are you really saying?

    That’s half my point. Kobe’s not efficient in this era. He might not be efficient in the other era honestly. either we have no way of knowing. My point is that his shot selection and unwillingness to pass probably play more of a role in his inefficiency then zones do, because he is most likely smart and a good enough jump shooter to break them. and yes saying kobe is a better scorer than MJ is kind of a slight. sorry.

    ok i misspoke on handchecking. My bad. but the point is Wade faced the same kinds of defenses that Kobe faced, with inferior teammates that couldn’t draw defenses attention away from him and despite being arguably far less skilled offensively, shot a better fg% and scored more points.

    You can’t be implying that Jermaine O’neal had anything to do with Wade’s FG%. It probably had more to do with the fact that he was finally fully healthy and shot his best 3% ever.

  • Guest

    What’s weird is that I made this comment. Someone my name pops up as this guy’s name sometimes. Really strange.

  • Dagger

    Did I say that?

  • http://twitter.com/apowellAdvocate Allen Powell II

    Jordan was incredibly ruthless away from court. He told Will Perdue he should change his name because he wasn’t good enough to have Perdue as a last name.
    He teased Scottie about his migraines. Made Bill Cartwright want to fight him. He was terrible towards Jerry Krause too.
    MJ came along before the explosion in sports media and the blurring of the line between what is public and private. He also, won championships by himself and kept winning them. That’s why he is considered a better leader. And having a career field goal percentage better than Kobe’s best single year field goal percentage doesn’t hurt.

  • http://twitter.com/apowellAdvocate Allen Powell II

    Oscar and Elgin were both contenders. Elgin and Jerry West just consistently lost to the Celtics. Oscar did the same.

  • http://twitter.com/apowellAdvocate Allen Powell II

    So you ignoring all the times Kobe got swept playing with Shaq and other cats? You really want to compare those teams Jordan had, which backed into the playoffs as sub. 500 teams, to what Kobe was rolling with? Is that were you think this discussions should have gone?

  • http://twitter.com/apowellAdvocate Allen Powell II

    so you think the sixers were a better team than Barkley’s Suns or Drexler’s Blazers? The same Blazers that made multiple finals appearances? Wow. Just, wow. And the Orlando Magic are better than them too? Wow.

  • http://twitter.com/apowellAdvocate Allen Powell II

    thank you bruh. Having a big man makes you shoot better! Only idiots don’t recognize this.

  • http://twitter.com/apowellAdvocate Allen Powell II

    that is 18 percent of a season. Jeremy Lin looked like a superstar for 18 percent of the season and so did Flip Murray. Bad argument.

  • http://twitter.com/apowellAdvocate Allen Powell II

    Not only is it counter intuitive, it doesn’t connect with basketball history. All you have to do is check the stats of other players who played with dominant bigs.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Oscar’s teams were getting throttled by the Celtics in his prime. And they also lost to the 76ers twice. In Milwaukee, they were losing to LA. As they were in the Western conference in those days. And 2nd/3rd place against those Celtics, Lakers, 76ers teams doesn’t really make them contenders. The mismatch was constantly overwhelming. .
    Yeah, Baylor I should have given more credit

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    somewhere in this mess i said Jordan got a lot of help just by not having the internet around. i can’t judge Jordan on how he acted if the media was the way it is today. he probably would have acted different, at least publicly. I’m sure he would have at least learned his lesson quicker than Bryant…..who never learned his lesson.

  • http://twitter.com/1993Freckles Conor O’Hara

    The 00s’ Blazers, Kings, and Spurs were all better than Barkley’s Suns & Drexler’s Blazers. Philly would have competed against both.

  • Drig

    Well, considering Kobe has rarely, if ever, played with decent post players and superstar perimeter players, that’s the closest one can come to identifying how Kobe can play in a perimeter oriented game. I wanted to take the ’12 regular season first 5 games where the post was de-emphasized but that was even shorter.

  • Drig

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihsBZakRUxg

    ALLAN HOUSTON.

    Kobe guarded him ONE possession in that entire video. Rick Fox and Devan George were on him for most of the night.

    Try again.

    Larry Hughes? When did this happen again?

  • Datkid

    lmao do you really think prime mj would continue to let allan houston murder his team? the fact that kobe didn’t take up the challenge after rick fox and devan george defended him ineffectively really tells you all know you need to know about kb’s defense. I don’t even know what you’re whining about anymore. you’ve already admitted MJ’s defense> kobe’s defense several times

    as a side note I like how you didn’t answer my question and just turned it around lolololol.

    I remember hearing about the larry hughes thing in one of these debates but i couldn’t tell you when it happened, and i’m too lazy too look it up so you’ll have to ask philo.

  • Datkid

    and seriously there is no f*cking way gilbert arenas does that to MJ

  • Drig

    Because Gilbert and MJ played one on one everyday. Right…….

    We’ve seen MJ struggle a bit vs smaller quicker guards like he is supposed to because of his frame. It ain’t farfetched that a player who’s entire game is built upon that and has the range to punish defenders for sagging off of him can trouble or even go off on MJ.

  • Drig

    So that’s your logic.

    It can’t be Phil stopping Kobe from taking up the assignment to keep the team’s O afloat because Shaq ain’t there. Yup.

  • Drig

    Elaborate about Larry Hughes please.

  • Datkid

    MJ got crossed up by A.I. a similarly iconic HOF’er… otherwise I really don’t know what you mean. this is where you stop being credible btw, when you say crazy sh*t like this. I’m done arguing with you.

  • Datkid

    well when you’re a hof level defensive player like Lebron or MJ you can do both… and KB just isnt on that level. don’t argue with this you’ve already admitted it like 3x everywhere else.

    seriously you didnt answer anything i asked you too, either smh… thanks

  • Drig

    It’s not about Kobe not being able to do both. It’s about Phil and Kobe both deciding that him expending his energy there was NOT in the best interests of the team.

    Also, I was pretty content stating KB is a worse overall defender than MJ or LBJ are. But as far as on ball D goes, MJ ~ Kobe > LBJ.

  • http://twitter.com/apowellAdvocate Allen Powell II

    He also played with Odom and Butler for a quite a few games in the year he got hurt, and I didn’t see you using those stats. That was strictly a perimeter team for the entire season AND it didn’t use the triangle that Kobe fans claim dampened his stats.

  • Drig

    I didn’t disagree. However, that’s the amount of time Kobe had a good team with good coaching minus good post players.

    In ’05 and ’06, Kobe had a team which simply couldn’t shoot open shots or create off the dribble.

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