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Wednesday, September 17th, 2008 at 8:00 am  |  265 responses

SLAMonline Top 50: Ray Allen, no. 35

The definitive ranking of the best players in the NBA today…

by Khalid Salaam

I’ve never had much of a chemistry when interviewing Ray Allen. Which is fine of course, but it’s just one of those things I notice. There are some guys who answer your questions with energy and some guys who don’t. Allen falls under the last category; anytime I’ve tried to ask him a question I always get back a dry, somewhat snarky reply.  Which again is fine, it’s unrealistic to assume every guy will answer questions with some sort of great joy. Maybe he’s not the talkative type, fine so what? Whether or not Allen is a good interview doesn’t affect where I place him on our list. Thirty-five seems like a very logical spot for him.

First I’ll give you some numbers, that way the words that come later can exist in the proper context. Ray Allen is an eight-time All-Star and while politics, popularity and occasionally injuries play a part in who goes the Mid-Winter Classic, it’s safe to say Ray Allen earned his appearances. With most of his career spent in Milwaukee (’96-’03) and Seattle (’03-’07), no TV rating conspiracy makes sense nor does the obsession of a national fan base since I can count on one hand (actually one finger) the number of Sonics and Bucks fans I know personally and non-personally. Allen won an Olympic Gold Medal in the 2000 Sydney Games, holds the record for most 3-pointers made in a season (269) and is second on the all-time 3-pointers made list.

I don’t care if you’re hating on his past life – yes, I know this is all about the upcoming season, but it’s relevant. He’s in great shape, and even without his since-gone youth he can still do what he always has done. Just not all the time. That’s why Boston’s depth is so important because they have older guys in important roles. Having depth allows Allen to play at a high level, so while he may be on the verge of his 13th year in the League, you won’t always be able to tell. And as the numbers from earlier remind us, when he’s able, he very capable.

Some of you will bring up his playoff performance from last year and say he’s rated too high. That’s cool, you have that right. He had the worst slump I’ve ever seen a star have. He was as cold as ice during the playoffs, especially in the second round. Based on his performance against the Cavs, you would have had to place him behind Wally Szczerbiak. He was beyond abysmal, allowing himself and the Celtics absolutely no margin for error. That they had homecourt advantage and still almost lost to a Cleveland team with an inferior roster (except for Mr. YankeeCowboyBulls of course) was a testament to how mediocre Allen had been. But his display of talent and moxie against the Lakers in the Finals put to bed talks of his demise and reinserted his name into the minds of basketball fans. Allen’s no. 35 ranking is to remind people that he’s not washed up.

You still can’t leave him open, and you still have to put at least a competent defender on him – a guy who can move his feet since Allen will still occasionally drive to the hole. He still can get open easier than 80 percent of the guards in this league, and he can still hit the long ball. One of the best to ever do it still has the ability to take over a game from outside the arc. Remember he holds the record now for most 3-point field goals made in a single Finals series (and that was only 6 games), so he’s still a factor. He’s not really much of an athlete anymore (although he has his moments), but his basketball smarts are as high as ever. Now that he’s experienced what it’s like to be a champ, I doubt he (or his teammates) are ready to give up that feeling quite yet.

Want more of the SLAMonline Top 50? Check out the archive.

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  • MyKal

    Yay yay for Ray Ray about the right spot. my favorite baller by the way.

  • MyKal

    Well said, Khalid, I hope you get a warmer more ring-wearing Ray Allen in your next interview.

  • http://www.myspace.com/2536545 Bryan

    Much respect to this guy.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Right now Sasha is shaking his head in disbelief that the player who blew by him is only ranked 35th in the league.

  • http://www.myspace.com/2536545 Bryan

    Along with the other accolades should 1 finals mvp also.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    This is a good spot for Ray. No argument from me. He still has the sweetest stroke in the game.

  • MyKal

    Sasha is also shaking his head at the fact he is named Sasha.

  • http://www.myspace.com/2536545 Bryan

    Paul peirce’s ranking is gonna piss me off.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Ryan Jones

    Khalid just asks dumb questions.

  • jay

    overrated

  • andrew

    MyKal – Sasha is an eastern European abbreviation of Alexander.

  • http://its-mitch.blogspot.com/ Paps

    Jesus!

  • andrew

    ryan: ouch.

  • scott

    Just imagine if you put Ray Allen on Jersey and Carter on Boston. You think Garnett and Pierce could get Carter to play hard every night instead of once every three or four games.

  • http://twentythreenine.blogspot.com Russ Bengtson

    Crazy that he came into the L the same year as Kobe. And, uh, Kerry Kittles and Samaki Walker.

  • http://moneybills2cents.blogspot.com/ Money Bill Williams

    great ranking for my favourite player. good writeup kha, you think he would be a bit more friendly. andrew, having eastern european grandparents means that while my name is alexander, they have never ever called me sasha once

  • andrew

    Scott – I think KG would end up fighting VC during a time out. Somebody make this happen.

  • MyKal

    andrew thanks for the advice it was meant to be a joke but call it how you see it. Sasha=Alex, whats next Josh Howard making a fool of himself (again), oh.

  • riggs

    jay: youre kidding right?

  • http://moneybills2cents.blogspot.com/ Money Bill Williams

    shame kerry ain’t still in the L Russ, he had some moments in jersey.

  • andrew

    Money – be that as it may, it still is an abbreviation of Alexander. Dostoevsky had many characters in his books named Alexander, each of whom were referred to numerous times as Sasha.

  • MyKal

    Wooo! Eastern Europeans REPRESENT!

  • Josh

    He didn’t have a fantastic season last year, it was below average by his standards but around average for a solid player. Of course, he also showed that he can still play spectacularly for long stretches like he did in the final 2 games against Detroit and 5/6 games in the finals. Balancing the high and low, 35 sounds about right.

    He’s still plenty athletic I gotta say. He showed it on that layup in game 4 when he did that amazing reverse layup. The hangtime and distance he covered was phenomenal.

    Also, as well as he played during the finals and as much as I don’t like to debate among Celtics players, Pierce deserved the MVP. He was the best player for the first two games. Game 3 he was horrible but after a 6 hour flight with one day recovery, he lacked mobility and lift and didn’t look physically right. Still, whatever the reason, he played a bad game 3. He and Allen were both co-mvps of game 4, Pierce taking over the third on both ends and Allen making big plays on both ends in the fourth. Pierce was the best player on the floor in game 5 and in game 6, everyone did their part. Garnett, Allen, Pierce, Rondo, everyone. Allen had all those threes that blew the game into riot territory but the game was essentially over after the first half during which Allen missed a lot of time and Pierce, Garnett, Rondo, Posey and House were blowing the Lakers up. Tallying it up, Pierce was the outright or co-mvp for 5 of the 6 finals games, he deserved to be mvp.

  • http://moneybills2cents.blogspot.com/ Money Bill Williams

    you got me there. and i would pay good money to see KG demolish the smirk of winces face if he didn’t play hard.

  • andrew

    MyKal – the tyranny of text means that any implied irony or humour was lost on me. Money – I’m not going to fight you.

  • http://twentythreenine.blogspot.com Russ Bengtson

    Ray’s still one of the most accomodating All-Stars out there. Keep in mind that he was the go-to guy in the Boston locker room all last year since P Double and KG did all their interviews at a podium or wherever.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Good write up. Good spot for Jesus. I find it almost too easy to agree with Khalid at times.

  • Boing Dynasty

    VC even when hes only half there > Ray

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    Yeah, this is about right for Ray. Good piece, King K.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Ryan Jones

    andrew: I was kidding. Khalid will know this, even if you didn’t.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com H to the Izzo

    Future Hall of Famer.

  • scott

    Class of 96 the greatest of all time. Iverson, Camby, Marbury, Allen, Bryant, O’Neal, Nash, Walker, and Walker. Good times.

  • scott

    I’m not so sure Ray Allen is a lock for the Hall OF Fame.

  • andrew

    Ryan: I know. The implied humour worked then. I, too, was kidding.

  • andrew

    I’m going to stop posting when I’m drunk. It gets me into trouble with slam staffers.

  • http://moneybills2cents.blogspot.com/ Money Bill Williams

    2nd time all three point shooting has to be up there with HOF status scott

  • http://www.slamonline.com Ryan Jones

    scott: You’re right. We should do a story on that.
    andrew: Damned internets.

  • andrew

    cosign money…
    back to the topic – I think this about perfect for shuttlesworth. I’ve had very few issues with any of the picks so far. But that just might be because I’m lazy and can’t be bothered to argue. Still, I find it easy to swallow that Ray has 34 other guys ahead of him in the lig, his shot-creating ability is astonishing at times, and his drives to the hoop belie his age and troublesome ankles.

  • http://www.myspace.com/2536545 Bryan

    If Reggie Miller is a hall of famer then Ray Allen better be.

  • scott

    Just because you can hit the 3 ball does not make one a Hall Of Fame member. Dale Ellis has got to be in the top 5 all-time. Is he worthy of being in the Hall?

  • andrew

    BUT he can go missing at times, and, for better or worse, that shooter’s mentality that the next one will go in (as we saw in the playoffs) can be a killer.

  • scott

    I’m still upset with Allen because his Huskies beat Iverson’s Bulldogs in the Big East championship.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    We are seriously comparing Ray to Dale Ellis?? Oh my……

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Well then, don’t forget Chuck Person or Steve Kerr.

  • scott

    Nope not comparing him to Dale Ellis at all.

  • http://twentythreenine.blogspot.com Russ Bengtson

    Reggie Miller >>>>> Ray Allen. For starters, you’re talking 25,000 points compared to 18,000. And while Ray’s not done, you could argue he’s on the downside. Also, Reggie Miller—for a guy who never won a championship—turned in some of the most cold-blooded playoff performances of ALL TIME. They’ll probably both make the Hall in the end, but Reggie’s a true all-time great, Ray’s just been really, really good.

  • scott

    Just because your second all-time hitting the three point shot this does not justify you being in the Hall of Fame.

  • http://moneybills2cents.blogspot.com/ Money Bill Williams

    couldnt put it better myself russ

  • scott

    Agree with Russ.

  • http://moneybills2cents.blogspot.com/ Money Bill Williams

    yeah your right scott, those shots just fell in by mistake

  • andrew

    Indeed, Russ… who could imagine Ray hitting those three pointers to take down the Knicks after forcing three straight turnovers, then doing the ‘choke’ to the Garden crowd… Reggie was freakin clutch.

  • scott

    @money bill…I’m not saying Allen isn’t a great player but all you keep mentioning is his three point shot.

  • http://twentythreenine.blogspot.com Russ Bengtson

    If you end your NBA career with 20,000 points (which is more or less a given for Ray) and a championship that you played a role in winning, you’re in. No questions asked. Pretty sure NO ONE with those credentials has been left out.

  • http://moneybills2cents.blogspot.com/ Money Bill Williams

    yeah scott, he is money from there

  • andrew

    Scott – it’s because he’s regarded as one of the purest shooters in the game. Given that the object of the game, at it’s basest level, is to put the ball through the hoop, and that he’s remarkably good at doing it from quite a distance away. Nobody is saying that that’s the only reason he’ll be a HOFer. I’ll refer you to Russ’s 9:21am comment.

  • jay

    riggs: yes I am

  • http://moneybills2cents.blogspot.com/ Money Bill Williams

    very nice andrew

  • scott

    @Russ…You’re probably right Jesus will be in the Hall but they should add some sort of level of greatness to the Hall of Fame. The first floor could be for guys like Ray Allen and other border line guys (Tracy McGrady). The top floor would be for the all-time greats Jordan, Chamberlain, Robertson, Russell, and Johnson.

  • MSkittle

    35 seems like the perfect spot for Ray. Good job with this one.

  • http://www.myspace.com/2536545 Bryan

    Wow. F*ck Reggie Miller…Ray Allen is better in my opinion…more athletic he can create his own offense he can rebound. Reggie shot threes off screens his whole career. Granted he could hit shots better than a lot of people but Allen is a better all around basketball player and I think on his level as a shooter.

  • scott

    Miller career FG% .471. Ray Allen career FG% .446.

  • http://slamonline.com ctkennedy

    allen no d no playmaking he goes to the hole let than vince and he has just as much talent he never was the man with the bucks (cassell) wasnt the leading scorer (big dog) one winnin season in seattle and EVERYBODY on the roster had a career year lewis was the mismatch problem that year he 35 than vince is 15

  • http://www.myspace.com/2536545 Bryan

    Are we really gonna go to the numbers?

  • http://moneybills2cents.blogspot.com/ Money Bill Williams

    bryan you make some good points about being better all round but reggie was an icon of his time with all the hate. also as sweet as rays shot is, i dont think he is as deadly as reggie was

  • scott

    Happy 34th birthday Sheed!

  • http://moneybills2cents.blogspot.com/ Money Bill Williams

    vince is stretching it at 36

  • http://coco-vents.blogspot.com Co Co

    Um not that it matters, but Reggie has some of the most memorable NBA moments and off the top of my head I can’t think of a Ray Allen moment… I’m gonna have to go with Reggie on this one.

  • http://twentythreenine.blogspot.com Russ Bengtson

    I’ll take Reggie Miller over Ray Allen 18 days a week and 76 hours a day. Reggie Miller may have been a skinny jerk, but he was also a cold-blooded, natural-born killer. The Pacers were a tough out in the East every year when the East was still tough. His squad came closer than ANYONE to taking out Jordan’s Bulls. I hated Reggie with a passion, but I also feared him. Ray Allen doesn’t inspire those kinds of feelings.

  • http://moneybills2cents.blogspot.com/ Money Bill Williams

    coco, you are quick to forget how rayray turned the machine into a washing machine

  • http://sdfjkl.com Jukai

    You know, we’re running out of players… who in the world is going ot be in the 20s?

  • http://coco-vents.blogspot.com Co Co

    Okay Money Bill, big picture, who the f*** is Sasha?????

  • scott

    @jukai there are plenty of players left. I’m only missing one of my top 20 Josh Smith.

  • http://moneybills2cents.blogspot.com/ Money Bill Williams

    true to that, but it was in my mind a memorable moment from him

  • http://sdfjkl.com Jukai

    Also, Reggie Miller is probably simply a better version of Ray Allen. Taller, better three-point shot, better driving game, better defense…. I mean, Reggie Miller was just a better Ray Allen, when you think about it.

  • http://coco-vents.blogspot.com Co Co

    Some of you might be too young to appreciate how good Reggie was. Or you might be letting his commentating skills or lack thereof cloud your judgement. :)

  • http://moneybills2cents.blogspot.com/ Money Bill Williams

    yeah but ray has better teeth

  • http://moneybills2cents.blogspot.com/ Money Bill Williams

    coco if that is aimed at me check my 9;35 comment. also its true i watched reggie on the tail end of his career

  • http://coco-vents.blogspot.com Co Co

    Nah not aimed at anyone in particular, I’m just sayin.

  • Bo Diddly

    Sadly, I have time at work to make my own top 50. I had Ray Ray at 29…though maybe I should do a further few iterations! I have a feeling you guys are going to miss out some quality players…

  • akimana

    Clearly Reggie was the better player. He was the man on really good squads. Ray will make the Hall though, if it was sure shot before then definitely after getting a ring like Russ said.

  • http://coco-vents.blogspot.com Co Co

    All those players who have gone overseas now have a great shot at making the Hall too. I mean considering the way the voters love the international game.

  • Bo Diddly

    Everyone’s favourite gay, John Amaechi is in the Hall….fact.

  • B. Long

    Meh.

  • http://www.myspace.com/2536545 Bryan

    I think you have that idea reversed jukai reggie was a worse ray allen, worse at taking it to the basket worse rebounder passer and defender, equal shooters.

  • ugly_fish

    Ray Allen is a better all-around player than Killer Miller. But Miller is probably the most clutch player in history.

  • http://www.mybleedingfingertips.blogspot.com/ Myles Brown

    My favorite gay is actually Kevin Spacey.

  • http://sdfjkl.com Jukai

    How old are you Bryan? That’s a serious question, not trying to be mean, were you watching basketball when Reggie Miller played? Even in his later days? I do not understand how you think Ray Allen was a better rebounder/driver and an equal shooter. Ray Allen is probably a better passer because I don’t remember ever seeing Reggie Miller ever giving up the ball.

  • reidz

    The most three pointers made list has to be one of the less exclusive ones in nba.

  • matt the jazz fan

    while we’re at it, money bill, ray ray has better ears too.
    also: not all aleksandrs are sashas, some are shuras.
    pps: as far as floors in the hof, slam’s been there and done that when they published “the real top 50″ (it’s even referenced in wikipedia next to the inclusion/exclusion from the nba’s top 50 – what a crime about ‘nique)

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkiM3tBJVhk SMK

    Let’s not forget Ray’s biggest three: with Jill Kelly and Chasey Lain in “He Got Game”.

  • Josh

    I’d take Ray Allen over Reggie Miller without hesitation. It’s close and they share a lot of the same strengths but Allen was a better passer and much better driver. What is this nonsense about Miller being a good driver? I saw Miller play plenty of times, in his prime and during the back stretch of his career. He was inept at penetrating off the dribble. In game 7 of the 2001 playoff series against Charlotte, Cassell hurt his ribs and Allen played point for a long stretch and he played it well. It’s impossible to imagine Miller doing the same because he simply did not possess the all around offensive ability that Allen does.

  • http://www.myspace.com/2536545 Bryan

    I’m 24 and a knicks fan so I know all about reggie.

  • http://coco-vents.blogspot.com Co Co

    You whippersnappers…… :)

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Ray Allen is an intelligent, self-aware cat. That’s probably why he doesn’t open up too much to the media. I doubt most athletes with his mindset open up to the media. What’s the real benefit there?

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    I had the Reggie and Ray debate a while back with a friend. We both concluded that Ray has more basketball skills, Reggie was a better player. Why? Because Reggie was bigger and big moments, and made the most out of the skills he did possess. Ray never really reached his full potential.

  • http://sdfjkl.com Jukai

    I’m guessing you guys did not see, well, ANY of the playoffs where Ray Allen was trying to drive to get back his shot and was hitting the side of the rim and getting blocked by Delonte West. I’m not saying Reggie Miller was good at penetrating the defense, but if he had space, he was tall and nimble enough to lay it in. Reggie could not play point guard not because he didn’t have the offensive abilities, but because Reggie only saw two things on the court: the basketball and the rim.

  • http://sdfjkl.com Jukai

    Allen, what makes you think Ray never reached his potential? I think he maxed it, honestly. Or are you just saying that to be nice to Ray?

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Ray Allen is, was, a better slasher and way more athletic than Miller. Y’all are sleeping on how high Ray-Ray got up when he first got in the league. I’d be willing to wager that Allen also has better rebounding and assist numbers. Not positive though. However, as Russ and CoCo noted, Reggie was second only to Jordan as far as cojones in the league. And for a fairly unathletic player, he got hte most out of his potential and never backed down from anyone. Ray didn’t ahve that same sort of fire in his game.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Jukai, Ray Allen had the potential to average 23, 5, and 5 easily. He’s big, and before the ankle surgeries he had a ferocious first step and crazy hops. Really crazy hops. Of course his jumper was outstanding and his one-on-one game used to be real nice. I think Slam did an article one year where Ray Allen set his goals for like 24, 6 and 6 for the season and said he thought he had the potential to do that for the rest of his career. Clearly, he never did that. Ray Allen had all the tools of the prototypical NBA shooting guard, but he lacked that big game fire. Plus, he tended to shy away from contact and settle for that long jumper.

  • http://sdfjkl.com Jukai

    Well, Allen, I can agree that Ray had better athletic skills while Reggie was a smarter basketball player and better shooter, but to say that “Ray Allen never reached his potential” is a little insulting. It could just be that Ray’s potential wasn’t as good as the basketball smarts and shooters touch that Reggie Miller had. I never saw Ray Allen not give it his all.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Jukai, did you watch Ray Allen in Milwakee? Because when he teamed up with Sam and Big Dog, he actually did run the point at times when Sam went out. Ray Allen was WAY more athletic than Reggie in his youth, has always had a better handle and has always been a better passer. But, Reggie is still better. The Ray Allen we see today is not Ray Allen in his prime, or even close. When he played for the Bucks he was a killer. Against Philly in the ECF I think he dropped 40+ at least twice.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Ray Allen should have averaged about 22, 6 and 6 at least one year in the league. He had that potential. He really never became a great defender, and relied too much on long jumpers to get his points. He had the potential to be slightly below Kobe and he never got there. Even before the injuries he never took his game to that super-elite level and he had no excuse for not doing that.

  • http://www.myspace.com/2536545 Bryan

    I guess 26 5 and 4 is no good allen?

  • http://coco-vents.blogspot.com Co Co

    Ray Allen is a fine player, but he’s not better than Reggie Miller.

  • Josh

    Allenp, it’s not that hard to look up Allen’s stats. He blows Miller away in rebounds and assists. He’s averaged over 4 assists 5 times in his career. Miller’s highest assist average was 4.0 and he did exactly once. Allen’s averaged 5 or more rebounds three times and he’s been around a mid-4 rebounder throughout. Miller never averaged 4 rebounds once in his career. And as for Allen not putting together season of all around numbers, come on. How about 26.4/4.5/4.1 in 2007 or 22/5.2/4.6 in 2001 or 22.5/5.0/4.4 in 2003, with other very fine seasons on his resume. Come on.

  • http://www.myspace.com/2536545 Bryan

    A little perspective… Ray Allen 21.1 ppg 4.5 rpg 3.9 apg. 1.2 spg. All while supposedly never being the man on his team(right!)…Miller 18 ppg 3 rpg 3 apg 1.1 spg…. 2100 three pointers for ray 2500 for Reggie. Now if were talking numbers (which we’re obviously not) Ray Allen is clearly superior. Reggie played til he was 39 or so if Ray was gonna play to that age he would have more total points more three pointers and well lets just say it more rings. I don’t care if you agree or not but that’s my case.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Josh, I’m not sure if you read my comments, but I said that Ray Allen probably averaged more assists and rebounds than Reggie. So, I’m not sure why you’re telling me to look up Allen’s stats, since they would just prove what I already said. Anyway, I’m not going solely by numbers. I’m going by Miller’s consistent performance in the biggest moments and my feeling that he was more of a leader on his teams.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Shia, just say “f*ck Reggie Miller” like you usually do. It may get better responses.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Bryan, no doubt Ray could put up some points. But, I distinctly remember him saying he needed to improve his ability to do the little things on the floor and be more of a leader. I’m not sure he ever truly reached his potential in either of those area. Ray Allen could have been as good or better than Kobe.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Ryan Jones

    Ray Allen.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Duck Allen!

  • http://coco-vents.blogspot.com Co Co

    I choked up when Reggie retired and I didn’t even particularly care for him as a player. We’ll see if Ray has that same affect on me, and I’m way more emotional now btw. :)

  • http://LATESTCRY.WORDPRESS.COM akimana

    This is just a case where you cant look at numbers. I dont even know how to explain it (thats why Im no analyst) but Miller was just better. If u could have either one in their prime and it was to be the man on the team not a complementary player like Ray on the 08 celtics I do not know anyone who goes with Ray Ray.

  • Josh

    Allenp, why say probably. Just look up the stats. You would also have figured out that Allen has put together the kinds of seasons you wrote he should have had but never accomplished because he’s been a career underperformer.

    I’m not blasting away at Reggie. I respect how good he was and oh what big memorable moments he had. But it’s not he was perfect. In game 7, 1994 against the Knicks, Miller missed 7 straight shots in the second half as the Pacers sputtered away a double digit lead to lose. On the last possession, Miller also struggled mightily to get free for the last shot, showing his limitations and he ultimately clanked badly the last second try. He was not immaculate. If Allen was on that Pacers team, with Larry Brown coaching, Rik Smits holding down the fort at center, a glue guy like McKey multitasking, Byron Scott coming off hot on cue off the bench, the Pacers would have been just as good or even better.

  • http://www.myspace.com/2536545 Bryan

    F*ck reggie miller. Overrated.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Marcnificent

    I will take VC over Ray allen. I know slam hates vince but vince has hall of fame numbers, and he gets no respect, unbelievable.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Josh, I didn’t feel like going to NBA.com and clicking on the stats. That’s why I didn’t verify what I thought was true. But, to make you happy, I looked up the stats. Do you find it curious that Ray Allen has only shot over 46 percent from the field twice in his career? And that since he left Milwakee he’s only gotten over 45 percent one time? Check out Reggie’s shooting percentage numbers. As a jump shooter he still managed to get over 50 percent four times! that’s impressive. In fact, Reggie shot 51.4 percent one year while averaging 24.6 points per game. That’s almost unheard of for a player with Reggie’s skill set.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Khalid Salaam

    ray allen has had a fine career but he’ s not better than reggie miller. anyone who watched basketball in the 90′s knows that.

  • Josh

    Allen is also not without any big playoff moments. Facing elimination against the sixers in 2001 of the ECF, Ray Allen put up 41 points in game 6 that included going 9/13 on three pointers. That’s as good of a playoff performance as you could get. Or how game 5 against the Pistons this year. Late in the game, the Celtics are clinging to a 1 point lead and they have a 3 seconds left in the shot clock. Allen gets the inbound pass and nails a jumper to give the Celtics breathing room and ultimately the win. Or how about the two beautiful layups in game 4 against the Lakers. The final layup against Sasha wasn’t that easy of a shot. There was loads of pressure and Gasol was coming so Allen had to shift to his left to finish the layup. Anyone could have easily missed that shot but Allen coolly dropped it in. What was also lost in game 4 was how many key steals he got from dropping into the paint. He got two or three steals that lead to points on fast breaks that helped the comeback.

    Miller was more charismatic, on and off the court and he was the ultimate showman. I would only take Jordan over him for a big shot but Allen has been a better player with several big moments in his highlight reel.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Josh, you make a good argument for Allen. I can’t say my feelings are anymore than a gut feeling. Trust me, I debated this for quite a while with one of my more knowledgable basketball homies and neither of us could explain why we would rather have Miller, but both of us felt that way. Like I said in one of my initial comments, in several ways, Ray Allen was better than Reggie Miller. But, when I look at the totality of their career and what they accomplished, Reggie seems like he was better. He just seemed more dangerous, more clutch and more dependable.

  • http://www.myspace.com/2536545 Bryan

    Shooting percentage is anumbers conversation and I think we see Rays numbers trump Miller’s by a longshot.

  • Tom

    Other than those ECF against philly in ’01, Ray never had the chance to show he was a big time player. With Reggie though, its a case of the summ being greater than the parts. If you break it down skill by skill, I think Ray seems to be better, but as a basketball player Reggie gets the nod. And there is no point looking at the rebounding and assist numbers because when you have rik smits and the davis boys on your team, your not gonna get a lot of rebounds.

  • http://www.myspace.com/2536545 Bryan

    Rik smits couldn’t out rebound me sir.

  • white castle

    “a guy who can move his feet since Allen will still occasionally drive to the hole” see Sasha Vujacic… great writing Khalid. Thanks to you I can forget that inferior piece of an article done about Vince Carter.

  • Bruno

    Paul peirce’s ranking is gonna piss me off. [2]

    props to ray-ray. great guy, great player… he makes the game better to watch.
    not a bad spot, but i’m still wondering about the tp of the list… every player till now, had a better spot on my list, so, that leaves a LOT o room to be filled by not so good names…

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    White Castle always makes a comeback.

  • http://sdfjkl.com Jukai

    TADONE HOW MANY MANATEES DO YOU OWN?

  • Young Chris MP3

    He also gets passed defenders better than anyone else on the Celtics. Dude’s handle and quickness is a mystery because it hardly is acknowledged.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    @ Allenp : “Ray Allen could have been as good or better than Kobe.” 11:38am…
    NOPE.

  • tealish

    Ray was probably the better talent of the two, but Reggie has had the better career. The endless big moments define Reggie as a player. And while Ray had always been stuck on mediocre teams, performances on the big stage do matter and if you lack such moments, that unfortunately counts against you.
    Ray – big player, Reggie – big player big moments. The nod has to go to Miller Time.

  • tealish

    Z: With a heart transplant, Vince Carter really could have been. But that’s just saddening speculation…

  • http://www.myspace.com/2536545 Bryan

    Longer doesn’t mean better tealish.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Z, when they came in the league, name a skill or talent that Kobe possessed that Ray Allen did not? The both got drafted in ’96 and they both had the same potential at that time. In fact, people probably would have said Ray had more potential given his shooting stroke which is typically one of the most difficult skills to learn for players.

  • Bruno

    how can someone say something as stupid as that?
    there WAS and there IS some HUGE differences
    oh god, allenp.
    that should have been moderated and deleted before it got here.

  • NBK

    Thats because no one knew how good Kobe was gonna be, but ray allen was never a better talent he just excelled against better competition. If Kobe went to Duke and tore up the NCAA instead of being just a high school senior then he probably would have gotten more attention than Ray, AllenP basically the only reason anyone thought Allen was better was because he went to UConn and Kobe went to High School

  • http://sdfjkl.com Jukai

    Allenp: Handling, slashing, awareness, defense, fearlessness. And this was all when Kobe was 18.

  • tealish

    Bryan: What?

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Getting Latino women. Ray had to get his in a movie role.

  • Truone

    Ray Allen and Nas should interview each other for the all time most awkward interview ever. I love Ray Allen, he is just one of those guys you just can’t hate.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Do y’all even remeber Ray Allen at UConn and his first few years in the league? Do y’all remember how amazingly good he was? Seriously, people were debating whether he or Iverson were the best guards that year. Ray had a vicious slashing game early in his career. His ankle injuries have really hurt him. Ok, lets clear something up right now. I was 16- years old when Ray Allen got drafted. I’m going to need everybody else to post how old they were when he came in the league.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Bruno, nobody thought Kobe was going to be what he is right now except Jerry West. NOBODY. His development was not expected by the vast majority of NBA folks. If you had asked people in ’96 who would make more all-star teams and be greater a huge majority of them would have picked Ray Allen. He was absolutely destroying better competition and was further developed as a player. Nobody knew about Kobe’s killer instinct or his incredible desire to improve as a player when he got drafted. That’s why he dropped to the 13th pick! If people knew about Kobe’s intangibles he would have probably been drafted over Iverson!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Matt Caputo

    Jesus is right.

  • NBK

    Year Team PPG
    96-97 MIL 13.4
    ray allens rookie year AllenP nobody asked whether he would be one of the best in the league he put up 13 a game
    get your facts straight

  • NBK

    i know everyone knew he would be a good player but nobody wondered whether he was better than iverson

  • NBK

    i know everyone knew he would be a good player but nobody wondered whether he was better than iverson

  • tealish

    Allenp: Word. I hate injuries. I salivate at the thought of a player whose outside game matches their slashing abilities. A guy who can make it rain all day from deep and flush it down in traffic on a consistent basis. Has there ever been such a player?

  • KA

    reggie the better driver? apparently jukai overlooks when ray was the man in Seattle where he was depended on dribble penetration. that said, I’d agree to reggies superior defense if he didn’t flop as much. but then again i dont compare ray with miller since that distinction goes to rip hamiltom whos game is similar to reg but lacking range from deep. also, I didn’t notice ray was that old considering Rosario Dawson is still banging.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    NBK: Actually, the Sixers weren’t even sure they would take Ivy over Ray until the day before the draft.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    NBK, straight up, I remember the debate about whether Ray was better than Iverson, and there were many people who said they would rather have Ray on their team because he would be the better player. People were not convinced Iverson’s skills would mesh with players on the next level, or that he would ever be able to “get it” as a point guard. Nobody ever considered just moving him to the two-spot when he first came in the league….And why are you showing me Ray Allen’s rookie numbers? What was that supposed to mean? I was clearly talking about the draft, but even if I wasn’t, do you want to pull up Kobe’s rookie numbers? WTF…Tealish, I’m not sure if you were bing serious or sarcastic. Off hand, I can’t think of any player who was equally as dominant outside and inside. Even Kobe, with all of his talent and skill, is not a lights out shooter from deep.

  • John D

    Where is all this Reggie Miller talk coming from anyway? No, Ray isn’t as good as Reggie was, but he’s still a hell of a player.

  • http://twentythreenine.blogspot.com Russ Bengtson

    This conversation has gone straight into left field and straight over the damn fence. And I was 25 in ’96. Kobe went 13th because a) there were rumors he wouldn’t report to Jersey (who were STRONGLY considering him) and b) no guard had ever made the leap out of high school. I saw Kobe play in the McDonald’s Game, and he was a MONSTER. I talked to him that weekend and he was 17 going on 25. There was no doubt in my mind that the kid was gonna make it.

  • http://sdfjkl.com Jukai

    KA: Apparently I really don’t. I know he drove but I guess my recent memories are just of him getting blocked by people half his size and laying up airballs. I’ll concede being wrong on that one cause several knowledgable posters have stated otherwise.

  • http://twentythreenine.blogspot.com Russ Bengtson

    Saying Ray Allen could have been as good or better than Kobe is like saying Shawn Kemp could have been as good or better than Tim Duncan. From a raw skills standpoint? Physically? Eh, maybe. But mindset and passion and desire make up a HUGE part of who a player becomes. And Kobe was driven since Day One to be the best ever. You can’t just put that on someone else and say “oh, X could have been just as good or better.” Everyone who makes the League has talent. It’s what they do with it once they get there. Kobe just happened to be the most talented AND the most driven. Just like…well, you know.

  • Sparker

    purely for making the choke sign at spike lee and all the other (delusional) knicks fans, reggie gets my love. and i was in new york when he single-handedly destroyed them in the last minute. afterwards, there was almost no one on the street. AMERICA’S BIGGEST CITY HAD SHUT DOWN. anyone who could do that is a rare athlete, let alone basketball player

  • http://twentythreenine.blogspot.com Russ Bengtson

    As for Iverson, he was the absolute lock consensus number-one pick (pretty sure the Sixers never even considered anyone else) and he ran away with the ROY. I think the only name I remember even REMOTELY being connected with the No. 1 was (haha) Stephon.

  • nbk

    The reason i gave ray allens rookie stats is because i proved that whether or not some guy on draft night said ray allen could possibly be better that really was just some guy makin the draft more interesting to watch. Ray Allen is a great player possibly good enough to make the Hall, but he is not and never was gonna be better than Iverson, or Kobe, if Kobe went to duke like he was going to then he would have been a top 5 pick also. And regarding Kobe’s rookie stats, he was 18 the whole season you really expect him to play over eddie jones? and kobe made the all star team the next year as a sixth man so you can totally eat the beginning of their careers cuz kobes potential was realized the day he won the dunk contest.

  • http://www.lkz.ch/basket Darksaber

    Ray Ray intrigues me. The obvious talents are on show, but i pride myself on reading players body language during the games, and Ray has always seemed….above it all, in a heightened state. Much of it comes (in my opinion) from the way he carries himself, and that stern look he has when playing. He hardly ever changes the expression, unless Bowen Collector (prick) or KB8x3 are in da house. Or when he complains to a ref. I love that supreme confidence he exudes. Even during that stretch last season, when he couldn’t hit the side wall of the mall of america from 3 feet against Cleveland and Detroit, he didn’t panic. Put on the sleeve, worked overtime on his shots (according to reports) and surp.. no, SHOCKED the hell out of me by being the most consistent scorer in the finals. In my book, Jesus Shuttlesworth belongs under the top 30 players in the Nba.

  • Samaki Walker

    Apparently the Championship is clouding everyone’s judgment. Currently, Ray isn’t better than Rip, Artest, VC, or West. How everyone forgets Celts fans bitching about Ray (and his playoff average of 15.6 ppg at 42.8% shooting) all throughout playoffs.

  • nbk

    Hey allenp maybe you should ask russ about what your gonna say before you say it cuz everything you say sounds extra super foolish while he correcting you

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    nbk you get a fail. Ray Allen as a Buck>>>>Ray Allen as a Celtic

  • http://www.lkz.ch/basket Darksaber

    And him playing solid all around defense during the playoffs surprised me as well, even occasionaly gave Kobs fits. and have you seen his calf muscles? you can see those suckers from the front, jesus indeed. :-)

  • nbk

    Whoa Samaki you should probably take the fact that he won the title with two other hof’s as a pass for the reason he didn’t put up big numbers. And everyone struggles i recall him playing good while the rest of the celtics struggled during stretches in the finals why don’t you worry about that? Or the fact that he held Kobe Bryant the league MVP too 25 a game in the finals? I still am saying Kobe is obviously better but to say Rip, Artest, VC, and DAVID WEST? (are you kidding me) are better is just an ignorant comment

  • nbk

    Bet i am not wasting my time with you, you just talk out your AS5 and try to be funny

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    AS5? i wonder what that is?

  • Samaki Walker

    nbk:
    OK others are debatable – Artest (craziness), VC (better player but laziness stigma), West (you not watching him play last year) — but tell me how Rip is not a flat out better player than Ray now.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com DP

    I hate Ray Ray but I respect his hustle. Dude can shoot the cover off the ball and he proved me wrong many times during the finals. The question is that can he do an encore this coming up season? The celts are a year older and they aren’t that young. Someone is going have to relieve Allen of some minutes because just looking at their roster on paper, Allen will be playing a hella lot without that many breaks.

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    he cant do it. But Samaki, you cant forget how important Ray was in the finals and in the biggest comeback in NBA Finals history.

  • http://www.lkz.ch/basket Darksaber

    For one, Rip just recently added the 3 to his arsenal, using it more often now, which is a good move when turning into a 30ish swingman in this league. normally i would have added Rip’s prowess on D, but Ray’s been commiting himself against some of the best out there lately, so that’s not so clear anymore. Ah well, my only argument is: i met Ray Ray in Rome in ’07, and he was damn nice to me and my girl, so he get’s a a+ in my book.

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    ^truth

  • tealish

    Allenp: No sarcasm. I honestly can’t think of anyone who fits that bill. Ray Allen very well could have been that only one.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com DP

    Rip is a better athlete than Ray right now but that’s not saying much. He is not a better shooter but he comes off the screens better than Ray Ray. It’s debatable.

  • tealish

    I guess, maybe JR Smith? Although he’s far far away from being half the player Ray Allen is, looking exclusively at those two skills – he does have it.

  • nbk

    Rip is not better because at the end of a game and you need a bucket you don’t say rip is the guy your gonna get the ball too, on the pistons it is c-billups or rasheed, even tayshun if there is a mismatch, ray allen will get the ball for the last shot with two other HOF’s on the same team. I would rather have a guy that can win the game for me then a guy who can run forever and just recently added the 3 to his arsenal. If you don’t remember the year before he joined boston ray allen put up 26 a game, rip, david west, and artest haven’t done that. Points aren’t the only thing that matters with artest but thats what rip and david west are popular for

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com DP

    If we are talking about careers, Walker knows who is better by far.

  • nbk

    DP ray allen has had the most prestigious career of anyone on this list except Shaq and maybe VC but vince aint never won a title. I bet ray allen makes the hall before vince does….

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com DP

    Rip is not a complete player. He is what a controlled J.R. Smith would play like. Not jacking shots but knowing when to shoot and when to come off screens. The nuggets would love J.R. to become that kind of player.

  • http://www.lkz.ch/basket Darksaber

    Umm, Ray still breaks down opponents off the dribble, and gets iso’d more often than Rip (that’s a subjective view, but indulge me). Just ask “the machine”. He and Rip get lots picks set for easy jumpers, but the celts had this sideout play last season (did the same one for years on my team, called Miller after you know who) where Ray would get a double pick on the side of the key, curve around it, and get a quick pass for a three, none of the playoff teams countered it. Ray Allen comes off those screens like no one right now, and his release is faster than Rip’s.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com DP

    I agree, nbk.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Russ, my comment about what Ray Allen could have been was given because people seemed to think I was being unfair to Ray when I claimed he didn’t live up this potential. I wasn’t. Shawn Kemp and Derrick Coleman had the potential to be better than Tim Duncan. They didn’t live up to that. Ray Allen had the potential to be just as good as Kobe. He didn’t live up to that. Iverson could have been the greatest player of all time. He didn’t live up to that. That was my original point.

  • thegarz

    The finals made me completely forget about the slump. It was just that. A slump. But in the finals he was a BEAST. Draining three’s and in game 6, never stopped his killer instinct. Up 10? Draing a three. Up 20? Drain a three. Up 30? Yep, you guessed it. 3

    Not to mention he made poor Machine Sasha cry.

  • http://www.lkz.ch/basket Darksaber

    There was an educational video on nba.com earlier in the season, where Ray and other players explained their area of expertise (ironically his nemesis, Bowen, explained D.) explained the necessary footwork to get off a good shot, his foot plants etc. So bloody fascinating. The release on his shot in those videos was amazing.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    NBK, KObe made the All-Star game as a starter even though he was the sixth man and averaged 15 points a game. Are you really going to downgrade Ray Allen for averaging 13 as a rookie, and give Kobe props for averaging 15 as a second year player? REALLY? Is that your final answer?

  • http://twentythreenine.blogspot.com Russ Bengtson

    See, I don’t think ANY of those guys had the potential to do any of that. It’s not like you can just decide one day “I think I’m gonna be the best ever.” Kobe’s will was just as important—if not more important—than his talent. Hell, it’s an integral part of what makes him who he is. Maybe even a more important part than the physical. Anyone can spend time in a gym or on a practice court. But that drive to work through injuries, to be the first on the court and the last off it, that’s why Kobe is Kobe and Jordan was Jordan. Maybe those other guys DID live up to their potential. Just like I don’t have the speed or hops to be another Iverson, someone like Ray Allen doesn’t have the drive and passion to be another Kobe or Jordan. That’s not to say that he doesn’t have drive or passion at all. He probably has more than 99 percent of the population. But guys like Kobe and Jordan (and LeBron) are a step beyond. To say that player X had the potential to be just like them or better just belittles their talents, both physical and mental.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com DP

    I remember that, saber. But I remember watching that video like three years ago when he was with the Sonics. It was the overdrive thing on TNt.

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    buck teams with Big Dog, Tim Thomas, and either Ray Ray or later on GP>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com DP

    I think he’s right.

  • http://www.lkz.ch/basket Darksaber

    Yep, you are right DP, just found em on youtube. My bad.

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    as of now Vince or Micheal Redd

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    dam 80% of my comment went away

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Russ, you are absolutely correct that my comment about potential did not give enough weight to mental makeup. But, and this may be because I was not a basketball insider, I was not aware of how driven Kobe was when he came in the league, or that Ray Allen would never sacrifice everything to be the best. I also didn’t know iverson didn’t really believe in practice or working too hard on his game. I was unaware of any of this. So, at that time, when I looked at those three players, I thought Ray Allen, based on skill set, would probably be better than Kobe. And I thought Iverson would be the best ever. I would argue that it’s extremely difficult for anybody to adequately judge intangibles. Look at Charles Barkley. People thought he was lazy and didn’t care, which was true to a certain degree, but he still made himself into an amazing player by sheer hardwork. It’s a strange thing. So, I stand by my original comment that given his skill set, Ray Allen could have been as good as Kobe if he worked the way Kobe works, and cared the way Kobe cares. And that’s true for lots of players. I think fans have the right to hold players accountable when ranking their greatness for the fact that they didn’t reach their full potential.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    I mean, I don’t think Magic and Bird could have been better than Jordan. They didn’t have the sheer physcial ability that Jordan had, despite their mental toughness. I guess I’ve always assumed (and it might be an idiotic assumption) that it’s much easier to control your mental motivation than it is to control your physical gifts.

  • http://twentythreenine.blogspot.com Russ Bengtson

    I just wholeheartedly disagree on Ray and Kobe. But I’ve got things to do. Alas.

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    Allenp, that could be said with numerous players. But i agree that Ray Allen could be just as good as Kobe if he aplied himself. But he beat Kobe in the finals, so good for him

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Disagreement is cool.

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    Magic and Larry had totaly different roles to their teams Allen

  • Bruno

    oh man! that can get worst?????
    now the guy thinks shawn kemp and dc had the potential to be a tim duncan but they didn’t lived up to that!!!!!!!!!!!!
    holy christ!
    not even my sister would say something that stupid!
    the “draft” reason was already said AND, in ’96 there were just a few playrs from high school. is was still unsure. even KG had a weak 1st season but kobe was already A KILLER.
    1st season he almost sat out and learned, by the second season, he was dunking over tim duncan (see pre-season, lakers x spurs, #1 that week on top10)
    i love ray-ray. i have his bucks jrsey but he would NEVER be kobe or compete with iverson. NEVER. don’t come with $hit, please.
    that was probably the most stupid thing i ever read here.
    next time he will come with Tyrone Lue had the speed and size of iverson… but he couldn’t live for that…

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    ^what are you talking about?

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    Bruno been puffin on that Mario Chamlbers

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Yo, I would outline all the stupidity in Bruno’s post, but he already did that for me just by writing it. Do a google search on Derrick Coleman and “potential” and the do the same thing with Shawn Kemp. You find numerous stories about how they had the talent to be the greatest power forwards of all-time. Just check it out.

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    i know of the abilites of the Coleman and Kemp

  • Quail

    perfect spot for him. i applaud this choice.

  • tealish

    Allenp: I think the point Russ is trying to make is that mental talent should be viewed in the same way as physical talent. It’s not something that you can, if willing, mirror that of another player. Ray’s mental makeup is different than Kobe’s. That doesn’t mean he’s not giving it everything he’s got. Just look at dude’s work ethic and preparation – the man does whatever he can to be the best he can be. However, that intangible killer aspect seen in MJ and Kobe, needs to be viewed as a separate entity. It’s not something that you can just tap onto by “trying harder”. Ray doesn’t have it — not by choice.
    It’s extremely unfair to say he could/should have done more with the abilities that he had when that extra quality was never there.

  • Bruno

    the greatest power forward of all time!?!!??!?!
    Allenp says:
    “(…) But, and this may be because I was not a basketball insider, I was not aware of how driven Kobe (blah, blah, blah…)So, at that time, when I looked at those three players, I thought Ray Allen, based on skill set, would probably be better than Kobe. And I thought Iverson would be the best ever.”
    well, its explained where you get all the damn garbage you say.
    if you don’t know the difference between a good player, a very good player, an all-star , “Tim Duncans” and Kobes and MJ…
    well, maybe you should watch more ball, read more and NOT write this kinds of insanity.
    you probably think Michael Olowakandi had the potential of Wilt Chamberlain, but didn’t live up to that, right?
    holy… i’m out for the day after all that garbage. DAMN.

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    ^where did all that rage come from? And Olowakandi, Tim Thomas, Glen Robinson, and other could have been all time greats IF they would have played hard and given more effort.

  • Bruno

    thanks tealish. EXACTLY.

  • Bruno

    MAAAAAN!
    stop that … please. i thought basketball fans came here, not swimmer fans or gymnastic fans…
    cause saying: “And Olowakandi, Tim Thomas, Glen Robinson, and other could have been all time greats IF they would have played hard and given more effort.”
    go back to your comics and xbox man. please.

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    ^where are your facts to back up saying that none of these guys (2 were #1 overall picks) could be all time greats. And since i am problay a bigger basketball fan, and all you can do is call me out on things you do, i am not mad at you Bruno, more dissapointed

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    and why couldnt you have left after your 4:50 ‘masterpiece’ Bruno? So many words you say, so few facts you use. Amazing

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    my job is done, Bruno, stay off the PCP

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan’s combined mental capacity in sports>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the gross capital of Indonesia.

  • Bruno

    cause thi sinsanity doesn’t need facts
    their carrer is a fact. i’m leaving but everytime i post, i see more crap
    anyway, i probably got in a lot of rage, indeed, but what you and allenp are saying is something that i shouldn’t even debate.
    whats the thing of being drafted #1? GM makes mistakes! a lot of them!
    sam bowie>jordan? darko>wade? etc, etc etc…
    you want facts? i can give you facts till tomorrow mourning! cause what you and him are defending is AGAINST basketball itself.
    that man said DC and Shawn Kemp, 2 very good players that i really liked by that time, could be best power forwards all time!
    you said olowajkandi, tim thomas and big dog could be best all time.
    that only makes me think you guys never watched any sports ever, cause thats not just basketball, thats LIFE.
    what you do in your life is not just a matter of talent, or genetic, or whatever… it is a COMBO of things and the best in what they do have more and more qualities.
    what did shawn kemp had to be the best PF all time???
    he had CRAZY athletic ability and could dunk over anyone, grab an alley oop anywhere you throw. ok. what would that get him?
    nba action. nothing more. i know he made the finals, i know saying that “just dunk” is unfair, but its not more unfair than saying he could be the best all time…
    and i could talk here about every player you guys said, but i just have more important things to do.
    bigger basketball fan?
    please brother…

  • http://www.nba.com/celtics/ Moose

    36 for Rayray is way too low. But maybe thats just me as a celtics fan talking. But I can’t wait to see who they put ahead of him so I can question the choices . . . hee hee.

  • http://www.nba.com/celtics/ Moose

    *35

  • http://www.nba.com/celtics/ Moose

    And he’s the best jump shooter in the game. Period.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Bruno, do you.

  • http://slamonline.com ctkennedy

    why everybody comparin him to Reggie they need to start with Allan Houston two jumpshooters who could of did more and didnt

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    Bruno you fu(king d0uche, i never said these guys were better, i said they had potential to be stars. You little idiot, you must work for the Mccain campaing the way you take quotes out of context

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    Great read, Khalid. Ray Allen deserves to be in this top 50 list, regardless of all the haters. He proved himself in the finals, the biggest stage of the league when his team needed him the most. The Finals MVP Trophy could have gone either way (if it were me, I would have actually given it to Allen, instead of the “best player in the world”). Ray Allen is one of the most focused, hardest working ball players the game has ever seen. I would most definitely rank him even higher than 35, had I took the time to make a list. Not only is he absolutely lethal from behind the arc, he still has the ability to get to the cup when he wants to. A definite future hall-of-famer, Allen should have cracked top 30, at MINIMUM. Jesus Shuttlesworth has still got the All-Star swag.

  • http://www.nba.com/celtics/ Moose

    Teddy-the-Bear, you would’ve given the Finals MVP to Ray Allen? Come on, man. That’s Paul’s team, and he had a great playoffs as well as a great finals. P double deserved the award, not Rayray. That’s from a celtics fan.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    @ Moose: Allen stepped up in the Finals, big time. That’s my opinion: I would have given the “Finals” MVP to Shuttlesworth. It was a close call between him and Pierce, but again, that’s just me. I’m not sour about Paul getting the trophy, because either way the player who received the award deserved it. That’s why I’m saying it was a close and tough decision.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    @ ctkennedy: Wow, what in the hell are you talking about? Allen played his @ss off in the finals, even you saw that. His team won the championship, largely due to his play against the Lakeshow. Miller and Houston were phenomenal players, but lets not compare any of them at all. They were all great shooters and incredibly clutch. These three guys deserve to be mentioned by themselves.

  • http://www.nba.com/celtics/ Moose

    Teddy-the-bear, i see where you’re coming from, their numbers are almost the same, even though Paul has a slight edge. But you need to take into account the rest of the playoffs, where Jesus was basically irrelevant, and Paul was tearing it up. The Celtics are also Paul’s team, with him being the longest tenured player and being with them since he was drafted. That needs to be taken into account, even though it is the “finals mvp.”

  • tony knorr

    this number is a bit off ray should have been in the top thirty if not top twenty-five for sure. consistency folks, can anyone off the top of the head think of a year that ray didn’t shoot around 40 percent from the arc? didn’t think so. 21.5,4.5, and 4 for the career and that includes last years significant dip in his numbers due to his unselfish attitude which he has exhibited his entire career. just try and find a coach who will say that ray did not try and do what was asked of him. as far as clutch goes ask the lakers, jazz, bobcats, raptors and many other teams he has buried game winning/tying shots against throughout his carreer if he is clutch. his d has always been underrated he might not get a ton of steals or huge rebounding games but he keeps his man in front of him better than probably 80 percent of the league. plus the cats handles are as smooth as nate doggs voice. its not often that ray turns the ball over off the dribble.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    Hahaha Bruno’s kicking BETCATS’s @ss. See now why I get on BETCATS nerves? Hahaha now you know Bruno, now you know! Ahahaha. You don’t even have to really bother constructing arguments against him, just piss him off and move on man. Haha.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    @ tony knorr: Well said.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    @ Moose: Yeah, I agree man. Paul IS the Celtics leader and he did play exceptionally well in the playoffs. I’m just saying what I would do, had I had a say in the award distribution. But solely looking at the finals, I thought it was a close call. Not to mention Ray Allen is one of my favorite NBA players.

  • http://www.nba.com/celtics/ Moose

    He is definitely one of mine, too. Glad that we could settle on something, Teddy.

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    Moose made a deal with the devil.

  • http://www.nba.com/celtics/ Moose

    BET, I try to reach out to everyone. I’m trying not to get invloved in your feud with Teddy-the-bear. And if it makes you happier, it started with me disagreeing with him.

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    Teddy you dont bother contsructing arguments because you cant argue. You can think whatever you want, i am more liked in real life and am most definatly more liked on this site. You some no name indepent rapper, im Jay-Z. Have fun reading my blog and my Bobcats season (when it is posted!!)preview or my Golden State one from last year. Until then, it is nice you have me in your thoughts.

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    Moose your still my peoples so we have no problem.

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    i dont aprove of nasserisim or people that are nasserist but i commend Teddy the Bear on learning how to use the computer to channel his homosexu@l nasserist thoughts

  • http://www.nba.com/celtics/ Moose

    BET, how did this whole thing with Teddy-the-bear start?

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    really, he just came out of nowhere and attacked me on something i commented on, so i am just defendin myself and trying to convince this guy he cant win. But he keeps going, and i never back down, so when this little nasserist goes away, the SLAM community will go back to normal and we can put this behind us.

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    even his little boyfriend James the Balla is now on my side

  • http://www.nba.com/celtics/ Moose

    Why aren’t my comments showing up?

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    nobody knows?

  • http://www.nba.com/celtics/ Moose

    cool.

  • http://www.nba.com/celtics/ Moose

    Felt like chanellin you a bit there, BET. +578.

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    salute to the man named moose

  • http://www.nba.com/celtics/ Moose

    Sorry to seem unflattered by your last comment, but why?

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    but i have homework that needs to get done, and it dont write itself. So i am out….and when Teddy the Bear stops by to bash me, tell him that i send my regards to his parole officer, his cell mate (now pen pall) james the balla(who is cooler than i prevously thought), and his computer teacher. They have truly shaped him into the insane man he has become

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    because if you dont salute Mooses, you hate on Canada, and i think its a pretty decent country

  • http://www.nba.com/celtics/ Moose

    But really, why?

  • http://www.nba.com/celtics/ Moose

    Nevermind, I’m out too. Peace!

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    who knows. I just type the first 2 things that come to my head and form a sentence. Class dismissed. Goodevening and Goodnight

  • http://www.myspace.com/hemantsbeats what

    Rip Hamilton is better than Ray Allen.

  • http://www.truthismygame.com/ Kevin

    i threw up a little bit when someone said they’d rather have Ray Allen on their squad than Reggie Miller.. #31 made enouuuuuuugh grown men (mostly in New York) cry over the span of his career.. yea, he’s an annoying commentator now and yea, he’s one of the weirdest looking (awkwardly skinny nerd) superstars the league’s ever had.. but you should stop posting at this site if you still aren’t going to give the man his due after everything he gave to the sport of basketball.

  • mitch

    BETCATS is right sometime. But really I think Tay should
    Be higher. Mabey 30?

  • http://www.sprint.com/sero Dma

    based on pure overall talent alone, vince carter is better than ray allen. plus he sells more tickets. they are almost equal in b*tchiness but vc barely wins that category. great writeup, i just don’t agree with the ranking.

  • http://www.hibachi20.blogspot.com Hursty

    To sum things up for everyone who cant be bothered reading:
    1. Reggie Miller was more ‘cold-blooded’ than Ray Allen, however Allen is not done and will eventually be in the HoF.
    2. Mostly everyone agrees with Russ most of the time.
    3. Bruno has once again proved his ability to distill stupidity into a previously sensible conversation.
    4. Teddy has pro-actively insulted BET. Again.
    5. Moose has continued his random and seeming small talk with BETCATS afte everyone else has stopped commenting, which makes for short, but entertaining reading for others.
    6. People severely lack grammar skills on this site.
    7. Some commenters are just plain dumb@sses. AI was the only player the Sixers were going to ever pick no.1. Ray Allen was never in the discussion and Steph was a 1/100 shot.
    8. Vince Carter does not belong in a conversation with Reggie, Ray and (sometimes) H2O.
    9. I spent far too much time writing this and reading all the previous commments.
    10. Thankyou for reading.

  • http://www.hibachi20.blogspot.com Hursty

    *after

  • andrew

    Hursty – you just made me not waste ten minutes reading all the comments I missed out on whilst in meetings all day. Ta.

  • T. Crook

    Ray’s ranking here depends on who gets ranked higher. As written, Ray had always been in low market cities which means less tv coverage which means the casual or less intelligent fans haven’t a clue to what his game was like in his prime (It’s still better than a lot of “top” guys) Miller played in more “big” games therefore had more opportunities to shine.

    Ray should have been MVP of the ASG and should have gotten consideration for Finals MVP. His defense on Kobe was just as good as Pauls’ and almost as good as Posey’s but since Paul was the media’s matchup for Kobe he got the credit.

    Ray’s slump was horrendous but he hit shots that counted throughout the playoffs AND he did other things. A lot of the shots were going in and coming out.

    ps Who was Miller asked to guard? Not Jordan or any of the other top players. Ray had to guard Kobe and the other top guards in the west all while being a scorer. Do you think reggie would have had the legs to shoot jumpers after chasing after Jordan or Kobe for 25-35 minutes? no.

    Crook out…

  • http://www.lkz.ch/basket Darksaber

    Actually Reggie was at times called upon to guard MJ during their playoff matchups…he just couldn’t. But then again, who could?

  • scott

    @Hursty thank you for the very entertaining summary.

  • http://moneybills2cents.blogspot.com/ Money Bill Williams

    good stuff hurst

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    So I’m the only person that remembers how Iverson and Ray Allen were compared while college players playing in the same conference? That Allen was considered potentially better by many writers because he was more fundamentally sound? Maybe this blurb will open some eyes…Allen attended the University of Connecticut from 1993 to 1996, where he earned All-American status and was named USA Basketball’s Male Athlete of the Year in 1995. In 1995-96, his final college season, Allen was a first-team All-American and won the Big East Player of the Year award. Allen finished his UConn career third on the Huskies’ career scoring list with 1,922 points and set a single-season school record by connecting on 115 three-pointers in 1995-96.

  • Fresh

    Ray Allen who I have at 40 on my list to me is always missing something from his game. People with great talent you tent to criticize when the miss a beat or maybe do something other than what they were brought into do @ any level. But he is still talent and maybe deserving of a higher spot but a group of games wont do that. Although he does alot of things really well and is an excpectional shooter sometimes you just don’t know about Ray and he gets lost in the shuffle

  • http://www.hoopchina.com xue

    thanks for him

  • http://yahoo.com Chris

    Yo! Slam. i am native of the republic,ie South Africa, a big slam fan.I would love to see old school feature in all your ed’s , man .The Chambers ,..the Russels ,Wests ,Tiny Archibalds..and lots more,am saying bring some nostalgia .

  • emoney12

    cmon brah u gotta have ray ray higher than this. i mean he starred in what may be the greatest movie of all time!! and he’s an assassin. loook at his youtube highlights. they are great!!

  • CL SMOOTH

    Put this Ray/Reggie debate to bed. Ray’s better. He’s not as clutch, but he has a ring. He’s a better rebounder and passer than Reggie ever was. He carried a very average Sonics team to 50 wins and came within one Allen Iverson from getting the Bucks to the Finals. He’s better.

  • http://nIn Ninjaschwoog

    Ray is in the hall of fame, based on three things.
    1. He won a championship as a priority player. (meaning he was a go to guy along with Pierce and Garnett on a championship club.)
    2. He will score over 20,000 points and an amazingly small amount of players have accomplished this feat, considering how many years the league has been in existence.
    3. He holds or will hold records for all of the relevant 3-point shooting stats that are out there. Also tops in Free throw shooting as well, and Ray has accomplished this all at a much younger age than many of the previous record holders.

  • Lyrical

    Ray was not even supposed to play back to back games per doctors orders last year, his stroke is sick. Paul Pierce, is not the most unselfish player in the world, and Ray actually gets many of his assists from Rondo, as Pierce is a bit of a black hole. Ray is very athletic and in amazing shape, and is constantly moving. I live in Boston, and watch every game and some of his dunks he occasionally throws down, make you leap out of your seat, as you forget that at 6’4 or 6’5 he can still rim rock it when he sees fit with great hang time and pop. But at the end of the day, he will go down as the greatest pure shooter with the sweetest stroke in history. His numbers are CLEAR hall of fame in every offensive category. He did it night in and night out on teams that really had limited weapons to worry about – and he couldn’t be stopped. On the Celts the big three all drop their averages proportionally, but Ray has had to adjust the most due to the way he usually was kicked the ball as a matter of necessity for his teams to win. The Celts are just so good, he gets a few less looks every game, and they are deeper than you think and his position is sort of deep at back up with Tony Allen needing some good minutes, and Eddie House both at 2 guard.
    I would put him around number 20, due to his WAY under-rated court sense and defense and absolute unselfishness for a super star and scoring stud to possess. He is playing great this year as well, and I look for his numbers to be even better, but his overall points might only look slightly better, due to them not getting huge minutes as they have been blowing so many people out he doesn’t play the fourth.

    He is one of my favorite professional athletes in any sport, truly classy and a good person.

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