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Saturday, October 4th, 2008 at 8:00 am  |  253 responses

SLAMonline Top 50: Tracy McGrady, no. 20

The definitive ranking of the best players in the NBA today…

by Myles Brown & Ryan Jones…

Me: Do you consider Tracy McGrady’s career a failure?

Ryan: No.

It has been disappointing in many ways, but failure seems an absurd word to use for a guy who has twice led the league in scoring.

Me: We would call anyone else a failure under these circumstances, but for some reason we can’t bring ourselves to say that about him.  I think people just feel sorry for him at this point and dont want to pile on.

Ryan: He has been one of the best players in the league for a decade now. There are many valid knocks on his game, but…

Me: Can you name a better player in NBA history to not have left the first round?

Ryan: Probably not. But Elgin Baylor never won a championship despite playing with Wilt and Jerry West, right?

I think that’s right….

Point being, the league was half as big then as it is now, so it’s semi-similar.

Me: Yeah, I think he retired before they went on that run.

Ryan: Just read this.

Couple things I didn’t know, including:

“From the 1960-61 to the 1962-63 seasons, Baylor averaged 34.8, 38.3 and 34.0 points per game, respectively. His 38.3 point per game season average is the highest for any player other than Wilt Chamberlain. Baylor, a United States Army Reservist, was called to active duty during that season, and being stationed in Washington state, he could play for the Lakers only when on a weekend pass. However, despite playing only 48 games on the season, he still managed to score over 1,800 points.”

Can you f*cking imagine?

Me: Wow.

Ryan: “Baylor finally retired nine games into the 1971-72 season because of his nagging knee problems. His retirement resulted in two great ironies. First, the Lakers’ next game after his retirement was the first of an NBA record of 33 consecutive wins.[2] Second, the Lakers went on to win the NBA Championship that season, something that Baylor never achieved. He finished his career with 23,149 points, 3,650 assists and 11,463 rebounds over 846 games.”

Crazy.

Me: Interesting comparison.

Ryan: Anyway, not a great analogy on my part, but it semi-applies. Point being, no T-Mac’s not a failure, though his inability to ever get out of the first round is in and of itself a failure.

If that makes sense.

Oh, and two bits of “Trivia” from that Wiki entry:

Baylor ranked #11′ on SLAM Magazines Top 75 NBA Players of all time in 2003.

And…

Singer Ginuwine’s first and middle names are Elgin and Baylor, respectively.

Which is AWESOME.

Me: Ride that pony Elgin.

Ryan: Werd.

Me: I just think the first round thing is so damning with Tracy.

It overshadows everything.

It’s absolutely inconceivable.

It’s like being born rich and beautiful and still not finding success.

Ryan: It is. So is his injury-proneness. But again, failure is a big word. And a lot of other things (lack of good teammates, better opponents, injuries to himself and key teammates) has been a big part of it.

Me: Agreed.

But after a decade, don’t all those things sound more like excuses than legitimate reasons?

Ryan: I think smart people can tell the difference.

And I think it’s some of both.

But honestly, in how many of those first-round matchups has he been on the clearly better team? As a LeBron James fan, I certainly think it’s part of being a great player that you can lift a mediocre team to playoff success. Mac hasn’t done that, and that will always justifiably hurt his rep.

But AGAIN… failure is a strong word.

Me: I just think that players of comparable talent in his era and in his conference still managed to achieve some measure of playoff success with just as weak of a team.

Like Iverson.

Or Vince.

Ryan: Fair enough, but that implies that it’s either/or. Either he has succeeded like AI leading wack team to the finals, or he is a failure. Can’t he have just succeeded less?

Me: But he’s so talented that such a minimal return just might constitute failure.

To whom much is given…

Right?

Ryan: In a way. But you’re only looking at physical ability. Was he given a durable body? Not really. That’s part of it. Was he given that Jordan-esque ruthless mindset? Apparently not. That’s also part of it, all shit you’re either born with or you’re not, I would argue.

Me: Yeah.

I just cant bring myself to a decision.

I do think its a strong statement.

But it also has some basis.

Ryan: Why is this pressing? Can you like not get your drivers license renewed or something if you don’t decide in the next 10 minutes?

Me: TMac Top 50 submission is due tomorrow.

I haven’t started it.

Ryan: Oh. That.

Just cut and paste this convo.

I’m 52 percent serious.

Me: Just might if I don’t think of something better.

Want more of the SLAMonline Top 50? Check out the archive.

Image credit: Mogrod of clutchfans.net.

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  • http://mykal1.blogspot.com/ MyKal

    Your right I have never thought of McGrady’s career as a failure or cared about his first round blues. Amazing.

  • http://mykal1.blogspot.com/ MyKal

    T-Mac’s face on the picture should not be allowed in places where children are present. Is “Werd.” meant to be like that?

  • http://mykal1.blogspot.com/ MyKal

    Just Me, Myself and I.

  • http://mykal1.blogspot.com/ ♦MyKal♠

    Oh I forgot these.

  • http://mykal1.blogspot.com/ ♦MyKal♠

    My favorite T-Mac T-Moment was his 13 in 33 against San Antonio, that was incredible. C’mon someone else, it’s getting boring.

  • http://mykal1.blogspot.com/ ♦MyKal♠

    Well, I’m out. Did Ryan “thanks for the warning e-mail” Jones actually say he was 52 percent serious or is he just really good at maths?

  • LAN

    …..too low

  • grillzboy224

    Okay at least he’S in the top 20, bu even hough he hasn’T been able to get out of the first round (that’S probably the main reason for only 20th), he’S been a great leader over teams, that he’s often had a mediocre suporting cast (xept now)…I mean 15 points in 35 seconds, against the SPURS?!

  • asdfghjkl

    NO.20 is just fine for T-mac

  • franko

    he has a good partner in Scola. butt T-mac is selfish…

  • http://www.friendster.com/sesa Sesa

    Not this season, maybe last season he is

  • http://www.friendster.com/sesa Sesa

    T-Mac is 30-ish this season

  • jasonjoyce

    it’s argurable…it’s t-mac even he hasn’t passed 1st round… maybe health and mental are his problem,but i’m sure he can still be a dominated player

  • scott

    I would have had him a few spots higher but this is about the right spot for T-Mac. I think he is more valuable then Yao but I’m biased toward McGrady. I guess you can’t have him higher because he is always going to miss about 10 – 15 games a year. His fans will say he should be higher. McGrady averaged 22-5-6 last year but the haters will point out that he shot only 42%. My only problem is that I wish he would go to the basket more and not settle for the 3. When you take around 5 three point shots a game and only hit 34% you need to attack the rim more. By the way this is the year Houston gets out of the first round.

  • http://slamonline.com Simone S.Y Lawy

    scott can front…, what if they fall once again? it’s T-mac’s fault for real.

  • http://www.friendster.com/sesa Sesa

    scott, FYI I think SLAM rated Yao higher than T-Mac.

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    This is a good spot for T-Mac. If he gets hot this year, watch out for Houston.

  • http://slamonline.com Simone S.Y Lawy

    yao sux…

  • http://slamonline.com Simone S.Y Lawy

    Don’t worry, dude and yao combine for 80 games…, let’s hope Artest better don’t came out messing around in houston, they may have a chance for 8th spot.

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    Simone, you think Yao sucks and Houston MIGHT get an 8th seed??? Am I misunderstanding you?

  • jasonjoyce

    Moose,simone sux himself now and has no time to take notice of you

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com Hursty

    I have him around here, but to call his career a failure? No. I agree with everything said in Myles+Jones piece pretty much. Sesa, if you say something like your 8:47 and 8:48 comment again I will hunt you down and pull your hair out. It will hurt.

  • http://slamonline.com Simone S.Y Lawy

    c’mon dude, don’t be serious…ya, he’s sux in my opinion, but he’s still a good player…

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    How can he suck in your opinion but still be a good player? Because by saying that he’s a good player is showing your opinion. And you think Houston is gonna get an 8 seed?

  • rav

    t-mac should be nowhere near the top 35

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com Hursty

    Ignore him Moose. Simone cant decide whether he wants to be a man or a woman.

  • William

    T-mac is a 30 year old playing in a 35 year olds body. He has the same amount of talent as anyone else in the league, but his body and his mind don’t agree.
    Not a good sign when you come out before training camp and say that you’ve still got a bum knee and shoulder after offseason surgery.

  • James aka The Artist Formerly Known as Krayzie Bone

    I think him not being able to do it in Orlando is more damning than his time in Houston. His injury is such that if you try harder, your body goes numb and you become ineffective. And it doesn’t help that Yao has missed like 30 percent of their games the last 3 seasons. I used to love to boo the dude when he came back to Toronto, but I really love his game and think that he’s a genuinely good guy. I hope he finds some success before his career is done (at this point, making a conference final would be good enough)

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    William, if your body disagrees with your “talent” then obviously you don’t have the talent, because the body gives that to you.

  • WOOOZE

    ‘Tis a shame Mykal left…
    I was waiting for his next ripping one liner :S

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com Hursty

    Whatever. Hursty out.

  • http://slamonline.com Simone S.Y Lawy

    ya, he’s a good player, but he injure a lot…, he and t-mac never play a full season together. I don’t think they’re gonna have another 22 winning streak. Btw, i’m 22, and i’m man.

  • http://slamonline.com Simone S.Y Lawy

    i’m not a girl…

  • WOOOZE

    hahahahahahahahahaha

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    You’re contradicting yourself again, Simone. But you haven’t confirmed your first comment: Do you think the rockets will get an 8th seed? Btw, I’m 13, and I’m a manchild.

  • andrew

    I’m really, really, really surprised with this ranking. Really, really, really surprised. I don’t have him placed much higher, but I just thought that was because I am (and I hesitate to use the term) a hater. I don’t like the guy, and I don’t know why. But I really expected him to be top ten on this list.

  • http://slamonline.com Simone S.Y Lawy

    maybe 3-5 seed IF they’re healthy, 8th seed if yao and mac miss half of their games again. Did i’m contradicting myself?

  • http://slamonline.com Simone S.Y Lawy

    Did i said i’m a rocket hater before??? yes, i am.

  • WOOOZE

    @Moose you clearly don’t know the definition of talent.
    And William meant that injuries are holding him back, not his bodies natural capabilities.

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    Simone, you’re not supposed to bring your opinions into ranking teams, because there are some things people can’t disagree with. The Rockets are better than an 8th seed. And the Rockets had that big win streak WITHOUT Yao, so they can do the job without some of their guys.

  • WhaHuh

    Elgin Baylor got to the fnals 7 times while putting up record numbers. not comparable to t-mac at all

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    OUT

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ B. Long

    That movie poster if refu(kingdiculous.

  • http://slamonline.com Simone S.Y Lawy

    bye, kid

  • http://www.slamonline.com James the balla

    This is sad to see. If he wasnt injury plagued. He should be number 3. What a great player, to bad.

  • http://www.lifehoopsthoughts.blogspot.com the baconator

    I didn’t used to have a very high opinion of T-Mac, especially cuz of his playoff failures. But after watching this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceLlz7dOOvY, there’s no way I couldn’t be a fan. He truly puts his heart and soul into every game he plays. I really don’t like Yao, but I sincerely hope that with the addition of Artest the Rockets’ll make it out of the first round

  • http://www.slamonline.com James the balla

    Hey Jukai, should Tmac be lower than Bosh too?

  • fluxland

    Regular season TMac-top 20. Playoff TMac- not in top 200. Regular season Tmac-not a failure. Playoff TMac – failure of epic proportions. Due to playoff unsuccessfulness: OV ER-RA TED *clap clap clap* OV ER-RA TED *clap clap clap*

  • fluxland

    James: f off with the excuses..Zeke and AI played (and others) while partially in the intensive care unit while this guy gets a mosquito bite and people are acting like he got run over by a semi.

  • grillzboy224

    tmac is top 10…I mean…has n’T he been top 10 in the mvp rankings 4 a while…and it’S not like he’S been bad or something..

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    ^slaps forehead^

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    grillzboy, look at the rest of the NBA.

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    AND Tmac hasn’t performed in the playoffs.

  • fluxland

    Also.. regarding durable body, Ryan: what has this guy done in the off season any year to help the cause? Unlike many other players I don’t recall ever reading about this guy putting work in at the gym over any summer. 6’8 200 lbs… soaking wet. //People rank him high and think he’s top 5 due to individual accomplishments.

  • http://www.myspace.com/2536545 Bryan

    Good stuff.I think he’s better than this but I can see why he’s here he has to prove he’s still better and that he hasn’t fallen off.

  • grillzboy224

    I’m lookin

  • grillzboy224

    what’S the advantage of having an orange name and how do u get it?

  • fluxland

    I want to know how SLAM recruits all the kids here? I Sam handing out SLAM during class?

  • http://www.friendster.com/sesa Sesa

    @Hursty, feel free to pull my hair out. Cuz I don’t have any.
    Maybe I have, but I guess you would mind pulling out my pubic hair

  • grillzboy224

    Sesa why are u orange? I feel descriminated lol

  • http://www.lifehoopsthoughts.blogspot.com the baconator

    @grillzboy: It’s a membership thing. You have to endure a hazing ritual first by Ryan Jones, who comes to your house and slaps you with a dead cat until you cry uncle

  • grillzboy224

    umm…I am a SLAM subscriber if u mean that?!

  • http://www.lifehoopsthoughts.blogspot.com the baconator

    haha, just playin with ya. If you have a website, which it says under your email box in the comments thing, your name becomes orange and hyperlinks to the website. Capiche?

  • grillzboy224

    life, hoops, and thoughts…not bad ty 4 the info ;)

  • http://www.lifehoopsthoughts.blogspot.com the baconator

    Sure thing, no prob

  • http://slamonline.com Simone S.Y Lawy

    hahahahaha….grillzboy224. the baconator is nasty…..lol

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ B. Long

    Sesa: No one wants to hear about your homo-erotic fantasy. There are other websites for that.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ B. Long

    Tracy McGrady’s body is the basketball equivelent to Robin Williams in Jack. Who gets arthritis at 30? Damn.

  • grillzboy224

    simone…how do u say your name cause i used to live in the states and mymom is also a simone

    so is ist simoan
    or symony
    or simon
    or simony

  • http://nba.com grillzboy224

    ?

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    I like Myles and Ryan’s conversation about Elgin more than the Tracy ranking.

  • http://slamonline.com Simone S.Y Lawy

    how old are ya? grillzboy224…

  • http://www.ngunioamosotho.com Nguni

    i guess carrying a team to 22-win streak contributed to this low ranking. Or is it because Yao Ming was injured that’s why he didn’t get out of the first round? He shud b top 15, imo!

  • Jeter

    The list just lost it’s credibility to me. Tracy McGrady is atleast Top 15. There is no way in hell that Carmelo Anthony should be ranked higher than him. Injuries and 1st rounds aside, he has tried to innovate his game to whatever the team needs. A stopper in Toronto because Vince Carter was the star. Scoring Machine in Orlando because nobody else deserves to take a shot. Now, playmaker in Houston because Yao is the main option and because nobody on the team is creative or talented enough to direct the offense. I’m not trying to knock Carmelo or any other player down but McGrady’s value to his teams have been off the charts. And have you seen the past 2 playoffs? Yes, Houston bowed out but look at the production of TMac. This is a team game. One man doesn’t constitute the team’s overall success. In the deciding game of the Houston-Utah series last season, McGrady had 47 of the 94/95 points that Houston had for the whole game. Not to mention the rebounds, assists and other stats. What more do you want from him? Houston can’t have 5 McGrady’s. He is only one and he has been vital. To say the least. He carried the team to 22-Straight. With a bummed shoulder, a blasted back and cranky knees. 20? This is ridiculous.

  • http://nba.com grillzboy224

    I am 18

  • http://nba.com grillzboy224

    so how do u pronounce it simone?

  • http://slamonline.com Simone S.Y Lawy

    simon…

  • http://nba.com grillzboy224

    okay cool

  • http://nba.com grillzboy224

    so….who’S gonna be #19

  • fluxland

    Yeah a couple of those 4th quarter performances vs. Utah were breathtaking… production at it’s max. Clutch really.

  • http://nba.com grillzboy224

    cudos to jeter !

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com/ RV

    I stopped looking at these like 12 spots ago, and the quality of posts has apparently declined rapidly…can you guys just bust out the last 20 all at once so we can have some quality responses?

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ B. Long

    @Jeter:The bum shoulder, blasted back, and cranky knees are pretty much the only reason why he isn’t rated higher.

  • fluxland

    Also, fantastic 3pt % and FT % in that series…

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    @ Simone S.Y Lawy: You’re a f*ckin’ idiot. “Yao sux” ?? Arguably the best center in the league sucks. Hmm.. Maybe you should watch Euroleague because the NBA is a little too complex for your tiny @ss brain.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    The Rockets are going to soar past the first round this year. T-Mac needs to be healthy and we all know he wants it this year. When T-Mac is 100% healthy, he is without a question, a top 10 player in the league. This ranking is way too low in my opinion and T-Mac is definitely a better player than Carmelo Anthony.

  • ynneb

    incredible ability. insane confidence. weed smoker’s focus & drive.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    I love the Sports Guy and Sports Gal convo. Interesting stuff that I didn’t know about Elgin. Some crazy averages. That TMac pic is incredible. It appears he had that shirt since middle school. Oh, and good ranking. Tracy should finally have playoff success. At least I think so.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    So basically, Co-Sign Jeter. And the funny thing is, I was just reading that Wikipedia article on Elgin Baylor yesterday night. The man could play some serious ball… That’s an understatement. He was incredible.

  • http://slamonline.com Simone S.Y Lawy

    yao is f*ckin’ soft, slow, injure prone…best center??? far from there…he’s not even top 3 when he’s healthy.

  • WhaHuh

    if only the match was all in the 4th quarter

  • http://slamonline.com Simone S.Y Lawy

    @Teddy, most of houston fans says he’s the top center, but the top 1 didn’t usually get hurt, they know how to keep them healthy. No 1= orlando’s superman, no2= timmy , no3= amare

  • fluxland

    “Yes, Houston bowed out but look at the production of TMac” Last four games: 9/25-11/26- 9/22-7/21 … is that how you spell efficient? And that 47 point game was in THE REGULAR season? Who gives a rats a**? You are only as good as your last game 7/21=BALLS

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ B. Long

    Simone, I’m not sure that your aware of this but Amare is a power forward. Some guy named Shaq plays center for the Suns. So Yao is pretty much a lock for one of the top 3 center spots right now. It’s not even debatable.

  • fluxland

    whahuh.. 95 percent of games are decided in the last frame… does all the work you do for 3and1/2 q count if you don’t have it during the most crucial moments of the game? Not it my book. Effin useless.

  • thesubwayconnection

    WOW. 95 comments and no one has mentioned how that picture made me (or whoever saw it) spew food (or whatever else was in their mouth). That’s hilarious. I love Mac, but it’s all true. I think 20′s okay, highest I would’ve put him is 15-17.

  • fluxland

    subway don’t pretend you read the comments… check 10:03 and TAD at 12:31..8! comments above yours.

  • http://www.mrwiggleslovesyou.com shu

    I’m pretty sure it came from realgm.com’s jazz forum. And I guess Yao has few more years to prove himself to get out of the first round without Mac. I’d still have TMac over Dirk though.

  • MeloMan13

    i luv his game but i feel like its his own fault
    he cursed himself bcuz he wuda definately got out the first round if he stayed in toronto and he also wuda got out if he waited a year for Superman to improve

  • fluxland

    Agree MeloMan… like somone said earlier, dude is selfish.. and clearly some of his fans think this is ok. Like that hypocritical Jeter guy. Oh it’s a team game but “nobody else deserves to take a shot.”

  • http://www.slamonline.com James the balla

    Hes a great player. But he did do it to himself. Its sad though, could have been one of the best. He definitely should have stayed in tdot.

  • http://www.ngunioamosotho.com Nguni

    he still is the best…dude can flat out play. pass, playmaker, scorer, defend…heart and soul of the rockets cuz yao is always injured…who was carrying the rockets last year in the wild wild west? dude is sick. I’d take him over any other player except for the top 5, and we already know who those are.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ B. Long

    If TMac reads Slamonline today, good luck ever getting an interview again after he sees that second round virgin pic.

  • King David

    he aint better than Caron Butler or Tony Parker

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ B. Long

    @King David:HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAhAHAHAHHAHAHAHAhahaHHAHAAHAHA etc.

  • jdn41

    LOL im feeling that picture oh man

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    Thank you for putting it into simpler terms for our friend Simone, B. Long… Yao IS arguably the best center in the league.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    @ fluxland: You really are the cult leader of haters, aren’t you? First Garnett, then Bosh, and now T-Mac? I’m sorry but a guy who is the leading playmaker for his team is selfish? And no, as much as I love the Raptors, T-Mac’s best place in the league is and always will be in Houston with the Great Wall.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    @ Meloman: He did it to himself? Uhh.. No. Now he has Ron Artest, Shane Battier, Rafer Alston, and most importantly Yao Ming by his side. The Houston Rockets are a better team than the Magic.

  • http://slamonline.com Simone S.Y Lawy

    @Teddy, are you chinese…..?

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    And Simone, by ranking Centers, I mean PURE centers. Tim Duncan is a lot of the times, a power forward. Especially back in his younger days.

  • http://www.slamonline.com James The Balla

    @King .. as well … hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

  • http://slamonline.com Simone S.Y Lawy

    ok ok, he’s one of the top center…..

  • http://www.slamonline.com James The Balla

    I cnat believe this isnt even going to hit 200 comments lol. This is sad, really. Where is Jukai when you need him?

  • fluxland

    @Teddy… I’m trying. Hopefully I get that assistant hater gig with Russ. I just don’t like people circle jerking over players without examining some of their negative, or in some cases non-existent sides. All 3 players you listed get way too much praise and not enough criticism.. while someone like Kobe gets the opposite. For all the talk about Kobe not playing team ball… Tmac can be accused of the same. All 3 were/are 1st round exit guys. Bosh and Tmac still are and KG got to the CF cuz of ICan’tFeedMyKids and BigBalls… and then PP Posey, Rondo etc. Now everyone wants to act like he carried a bunch of scrubs to the ring.. while chocking in the 4th all along. No PP had nothing to with slowing down Kobe. And I think MeloMan meant that he ditched Carter (got to 2nd round) and then Dwight (got to 2nd round) for his own sake…now he deserves what he gets. F, they should thank him for leaving since “no one deserves shots but TMac” Continuing with the narcissistic theme.. look at his number. His attitude is not team ball -it’s I got mine and did my job.. there reason we suck I because of the rest of the team. (“It’s my fault… I am the victim here”) If he does get out of the 1st round, like KG, it won’t be because of him it will be because of Yao and Ron.. but I’m sure you’ll be on here showering him for his fantastic individual stats and accomplishment. Like Balki said the other day… stats lie.

  • Anton

    epic lulz at the pic

  • http://www.slamonline.com James The Balla

    I agree, PP did not slow Kobe down … it was a team effort for sure. And stats do lie … check Bosh!!

  • http://slamonline.com ctkennedy

    i got a question for everybody if mcgrady a failure or disappointin then what is nash cause he have played with players that he should have atleast made it to one finals dirk finley in prime amare marion and role players who were above average jamison walker barbosa raja and etc

  • fluxland

    Again… like I said the other day.. everyone has their definition of greatness, expectations from players. That’s where the beef starts. You want a guy who racks up stats in the regulars season or for 3.5 quarters, disappears in the 4th, guarantees 1st round exits, doesn’t do anything in the off season (ever) to improve his body/game.. be my guest and make sure to sign up for camp ChenAWanda where Tmac is honing his fishing and ATV skills.

  • fluxland

    ctkenndy.. Nash falls in the same category for me. When you spend you summers making shoes out of recycled material, making movies and commercials, playing soccer, purchasing soccer teams, spewing your political views etc etc.. and don’t think working on your D may help -you don’t deserve any rings.

  • fluxland

    Then again Nash thinks the L is fixed so he may have given up.. and the fixing thing is something I am struggling with. Something stinks to high noon and where there is smoke, there is fire.

  • tinchek

    MyKal likes de la soul? MyKal? ha?

  • fluxland

    I mean how many players have an extensive Off The Court and Other Interest section of Wiki (if one at all) like Nash?

  • scott

    We all can figure out the rest of the list by now.
    Carmelo Anthony
    Gilbert Arenas
    Carlos Boozer
    Kobe Bryant
    Baron Davis
    Tim Duncan
    Kevin Garnett
    Manu Ginobili
    Dwight Howard
    Allen Iverson
    LeBron James
    Steve Nash
    Dirk Nowitzki
    Chris Paul
    Paul Pierce
    Amare Stoudemire
    Dwyane Wade
    Deron Williams
    Yao Ming
    There is no way Carmelo Anthony, Gilbert Arenas, Carlos Boozer, Baron Davis, Allen Iverson and Yao Ming should be ahead of McGrady.

  • http://www.slamonline.com James The Balla

    I agree, Nash is a player that really bothers me. No D what-so-ever!!

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com/ RV

    By now there should be enough proof of why the rankings need to be thrown out in bunches…. the majority of these comments are crap…

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com/ RV

    Scott…why shouldn’t Yao be ahead of TMac?

  • rafonha

    @ flux as you said: you´re only so good as your last game. Macs last vs Utah 40/10/5 13-26! Get your facts right, hater. Replace Mac with Iverson, Melo or Gilbert and the Rockets would be a lottery team.

  • fluxland

    why don’t you be a little more specific RV…

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    scott . . . Melo, Boom Dizzle, Agent Zero, and AI SHOULD all be ahead of TMac. I see where you’re coming from with Boozer, but I think he’s better.

  • Kostas Tsartsaris

    @flux….:give 5 minutes,please

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Scott should be banned for stupidity.

  • Kostas Tsartsaris

    just now i enter my apartment and i want to write my stupidity about T-MAC and i have this Romano-Moldovian chick asking me what am i doing at the P.C..so i go to our conversation on the C.Bosh day and i read her all comments (mine,yours,Hursty,TADone, videogame kid,Keith….)to get an idea and after i read her almost all of them she says ….

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    Kostas, why is this relevant?

  • http://antwonomous.blogspot.com Antwonomous

    T-Mac’s career is sad for me. He peaked at age 23. That back injury has really taken it’s toll. Mostly a jump shooter now. But he put up a 32, 7, and 6 on 46 percent at 23…kid was unstoppable. I’ll always regret that he had back problems. Oh, well. I’ll remember the times…..

  • fluxland

    ? wtf ?

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    And who is videogame kid, Kostas?

  • fluxland

    10 of my comments have been eaten..

  • Kostas Tsartsaris

    she said “boy you are so weak,you go and fight with American guys,…don’t you know that Americans are “….” go find yourself somebody from Europe if you want some real competition..” i stop and i am thinking of you and our last discussion..i mean, you said that i think of North Americans as “….” while i have studied in an American school and for the last 10 years i have found myself defending the country that educated me and also is the home of some of my childhood idols(NBA players). I am just writing this cause it was really funny coming just a few days after i was called anti-American in this forum by you…now i was again in my familiar role defending the American people and their intelectual level. To T-MAC now..

  • Kostas Tsartsaris

    it is completely irelevant to you Moose but i am not responsible if you read it, i wrote it was for Flux…

  • fluxland

    Balki… you need to get your money back from that school. You got robbed. Was the school based in the US or abroad? Also, I am not American.

  • fluxland

    SLAM i all those comments are in your backlog .. don’t bother posting them. Balki… I don’t know if that’s what you really think of Americans, from minimal discussions, but some of you insults and condescending comments have led me to believe you do not hold them in the highest regard. If you claim (portray)to be an intellectual of a superior level… there is no need for that. Jabs maybe.. downright degrading.. over and over.. I’m just not down with that. And I was waiting for a few more comments from people like H to the Izzo before I said something about Europeans getting dissed. It goes both way. I defend both sides.

  • James aka The Artist Formerly Known as Krayzie Bone

    I don’t think it can be said that Nash hasn’t worked on his game. He didn’t come into the league athletically gifted, and it took him 4 years to become a good player and maybe 8 to become elite. Considering he can’t jump, I don’t see how you can say he isn’t working on his game or body. Olajuwan credited soccer for his footwork, and playing soccer is certainly both good cardio and good for improving coordination. He can’t lift weights because of his back condition the same way that Baron Davis or Deron Williams can, so he can’t become a little bull on the court. As for the D, he’s always been a poor defensive player, and though he’s managed to become a charge taking machine (the reason Kobe got him so badly those 2 times was because he tried to take the charge, as opposed to running for his life), we may be seeing the limits of his ability. Nash seems to run really well, but his high dribbling, obvious carrying, and lack of a really solid crossover (he can do it, but I’ve never seen anyone fall on their can because of what he’s done) make me think that he just doesn’t have quick enough upper body coordination to make it happen (nor does he have m,antid like Pippen arms).

  • Kostas Tsartsaris

    in my opinion T-MAC made a huge mistake after his first year in Orlando ,one that he is paying for now…the guy after his first two years in Orlando was at the almost at the same level offensively to KOBE and a clearly better defender then (i rembmber him blocking Kobe’s shot at the all-star game straight up..) . All that being a year younger than Kobe. But then he decided to listen all those “wise” guys that were telling him (like they were doing with KG)that he had to bulk up in order to be more effective in this league. So instead of remaining a slender “Penny type” of player he decided to become “litle Lebron” (ok, exageration but you get the point..) not all people bodies are build for extra weight (Tracy almost had a S.Livingston type of body when he entered the league) and after 1 year problems started. Now he has lost a big part of his explosiveness(i remember him telling this at the age of 27!!!) and more than this he is unable to play more 70 games. The thing is that if he had remained like he was his first year in Torondo he may not have led the league in scoring but he would be now top-5 defender(great physical tools to guard 2′s and 3′s ) and top – 3 player in general. (He is still top-10 at the nights he has some explosiveness..). So i agree with his ranking, although i would put him top-5 if somebody asked me for the most complete player in the world when healthy…

  • fluxland

    Fair point James Bone. And I was aware of why he played soccer. The foundation of any sport is footwork. But you don’t need to play soccer to develop it.. you could work on it while playing bball. I just think there are too many off court involvements… that prevent him from developing parts of his game. Not that an individual should not be well rounded, I just think you can do all that when you career is over.. there will be plenty of time. Call me naive or stubborn.. I just think every deficiency can be worked on. When I keep reading that he doesn’t, I refuse to believe all the reasons you listed are the cause. From a guy that dribbled a tennis ball to making videos. Again, there is a double standard… some players are not allowed any excuses.. other are.

  • fluxland

    Thing is Balki.. he never seemed interested in that part of his game. Making the highlight reel and getting his shine (because Vince was taking it) was more important. I am gonna need some proof of this “wise guys instructions” and subsequent physical deteriorations therefrom. Also, qustion.. is it easier to play offense then defense? Why can one be phenomenal offensively yet completely useless on D? This applies to Nash as well.. surely if you can develop your offensive game, you could do the same (with focus and effort) on the other end, no?

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com/ RV

    Flux: from what i can remember, I didn’t mean yours, the crappy ones are pretty obvious though

  • fluxland

    RV… I thought you were implying me because I know you are a Rocket fan and TMac guy..and I am labeled a Tmac/insert any other player “hater”.

  • Caleb

    A better comparison might be Pistol Pete. Excellent player, but never really experienced team success.

    And I think this season T-Mac and the Rockets may finally get to the second round. And then everyone will be like… “T-Mac can’t get out of the second round!”

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com/ RV

    bulking up wasnt exactly the problem with TMac, his decline started with injuries, which i think were due to improper training (bulking up with proper training would have actually kept him at Kobe’s level), and that period of time when he was having fqamiliy issues. After that he was more about being happy and enjoying life than being a competitor.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com/ RV

    flux, sometimes tmac deserves some hate and i’m the probably most objective Rockets’ fan you’ll meet.

  • fluxland

    RV .. what do you mean by “decline”? I don’t see an abnormal decline in his numbers over the years. Again, if you got it on the O.. you sure as heck can have it on the D. If you fail, it’s not due to a lack of ability… it’s lack of effort.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com/ RV

    It was mostly refering to Kosta saying Tmac was almost at Kobe’s level and then made a mistake by bulking up and then lost some edge….but i guess what really happened is Kobe stepped up a few notches and tmac didn’t, but Tmac has lost some game over the years that the numbers i guess don’t reflect.

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    RV, you definitely watch more Houston Rockets than I do, but I think that if your numbers don’t refect your “lost game” then you really didn’t lose anything, because you’re still producing. But then again, you watch a helluva lot more Rockets than me.

  • Caleb

    “if you got it on the O.. you sure as heck can have it on the D. If you fail, it’s not due to a lack of ability… it’s lack of effort. ”

    Uh, I don’t know that this is neccesarily true. Trying does not always equal success… even if this is America and that’s what everyone tells us.

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    Caleb, a lot of NBA and NCAA coaches have said that a big part of offense is talent and the biggest part of defense is hard work. Digger Phelps comes to mind with this one, I recall him saying that.

  • fluxland

    Yeah.. I don’t know how TMac blocking one shot in an ASG makes him a superior defender. But whatever. @Caleb.. then I need an explanation why someone with superior physical ability can do what they do on O but fail so miserably on the D.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com/ RV

    Moose, i’m not necessarily saying he started sucking, or declined like played do when they reach old age, but there definitely was a change. Even from his first year here to the last two years he’s different. A guy as good as him who pretty much has the green light in everything can still put up the numbers, but certain things dropped off. I’m mostly refering to his mentality though.

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    Well, RV, damn straight he’s gotta have his mentality now, you guys are looking like you’re gonna make a title run.

  • Kostas Tsartsaris

    @FLUX…:great offensive players never are great defensive players for the whole game ,they consume energy on something “inferior” (you love this word, eh..!!)something that can be done by almost anybody with effort and focus. On the other hand you forgot to mention that you need also the proper physical tools to do it in a high level, something that Nash doesn’t have and A.I. had (but never used ,partly to save energy ,partly cause it wasn’t as spectacular as the dunk he could achive at the other end with the saved energy..)

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    And Artest needs to keep his head screwed on right, but it looks like that won’t be an issue.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com/ RV

    Technically the numbers do reflect what i’m refering too, he’s shooting about 2 less free throws a game, which isn’t a lot, but still show something. His FT% has gone from almost 78% to 67%. FT’s are all in your head. That explains the drop in %. He’s also less aggressive overall, which explains the drops in attempts. His offensive rebound has dropped from like 2.5 early in his career, to almost none this past season. you could argue that’s due to injuries and loss of explosion, but he showed during the playoffs he could do it very well if he was actually looking to do it. His fouls have also dropped, could be explained by playing smarted now, but could also be due to lack of aggression.

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    Kostas, you say this: “great offensive players are never great defensive players for the whole game”. NOT TRUE. One example: Kevin Garnett. Argue if you want, objection to what I just said is just flat out not true.

  • the truth 34

    i agree with moose.

  • Kostas Tsartsaris

    Garnett is not a great offensive player,he is a quite good one(and basically cause of his phenomenal athletisism for his size, not that he has any special talent on scoring). Great ones are Parker, Kobe, M.J etc . Now that we are on the subjuct,i remember Eddie Johnson (former Sonic, played in Olympiakos big time shooter) saying that he always used to wish to be guarded by Jordan against Bulls cause M.J was saving energy on D and would turn it on only towards the end of the game (ofcourse MJ had the tools to do so ,Nash unfortunatelly has not)

  • James aka The Artist Formerly Known as Krayzie Bone

    And Jordan in his youth was dominant at both ends, to the point where he won the DPOY and the MVP in the same season (i think it was Pipps rookie year).

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    @ fluxland: Okay so you seriously believe that McGrady isn’t as important as Ron Artest or Yao Ming to the Rockets? McGrady is the team leader and as good of a center Yao is, without T-Mac they simply can’t win ball games. Now if you think stats mean nothing then I suppose Robert Horry is your favorite player.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    @ Simone: It makes no difference what I am, or what Yao Ming is in terms of race. The FACT is he’s one of the best, if not THE best center in the league today. If you can’t realize that, then maybe you should stick to field hockey.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    And flux, your hate is sometimes really irrelevant in ranking players. KG a poser? Come on now..

  • Kostas Tsartsaris

    @Flux…:man,this won’t cut it,you need to try more (ok, maybe it will here but…)

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    Kostas, when you say that Garnett is “quite a good” offensive player, that is pretty much code for great. And who cares why, he still is a great offensive player in the end. So i think you just agreed with me without actually doing it.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    Kostas: Being able to explode to the hoop at will and virtually shoot from anywhere within the 3 point line doesn’t constitute as “talent on scoring”? Then what exactly does?

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    Teddy, I agree with your comment on fluxland at 7:04, but I have a comment on your 7:00 one: You say that the Rockets can’t win games without Tmac, but they certainly can without Yao. I agree that Yao is a great center, but the 22 game win streak last year is pretty telling . . .

  • Kostas Tsartsaris

    Yao is the best center in the world for the last 2 years and sadly(cause he is no comparison to the great centers of the previous generation) it is not even close…At the same time his character and his knowledge is a bright spot for the league.I like Yao..

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    And outside the 3 point line, Teddy. He shoots a .284 lifetime percentage. Not bad for a big guy, b

  • MeloMan13

    thank u flux u got it. if he stayed in toronto he cud b like pippen and im pretty sure pip is in evrybodies top 10
    @teddybear: thats a gud team on paper but the more years he misses out on post season success, the more hell regret leavin T-dot and Orlando

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    *but he CAN score at will with the midrange.

  • Kostas Tsartsaris

    Moose, i just agreed with you by actually doing it.(ole!!!!)

  • Caleb

    Flux: I don’t have an explanation. It may very well be true that T-Mac has never put forth much effort in regards to his defensive skillset.

    But, I also think its possible that some people – for whatever reason, lack defensive ability… and hard work can only go so far.

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    MeloMan, they got Ron Artest and a healthy Yao Ming, and Tracy Mcrady, plus an improving Luis Scola, a good point guard in Rafer Alston, and a nasty bench. He ain’t missing out on the playoffs this year.

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    Kostas, what?

  • Kostas Tsartsaris

    and that .284 mention pretty much sealed the case for KG…

  • Caleb

    “great offensive players are never great defensive players for the whole game”.

    There’s an example that immediately proves this wrong – Michael Jordan.

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    Caleb, read the rest of the comments section before you leave your own.

  • Caleb

    No, I like to pretend I have original thoughts.

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    I’m out . . .

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    Hold on, no i’m not . . .

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    Now I am. All in all, I thought it was a good place for the sleepy-eyed wonder. Be good, and good night.

  • Caleb

    I think a lot of big guys could probably shoot 3s at a 28% rate, but they don’t shoot them at all because they knew if they tried… well they’d be shooting at a 28% rate.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com/ RV

    the rockets’ open scrimmage was today, hopefully i can find some clips by Monday and someone here can post them. There were some very highlight worthy dunks by Mike harris, Dorsey, Landry and Aaron Brooks. there was also a dance off, I think Rafer won, but the highlight had to be Brent Barry coming out to dance with Scola.

  • Anton

    the Kobe/LeBron entries will be 9000 comments long

  • http://moneybills2cents.blogspot.com/ Money Bill Williams

    pretty pissweak post, Need Jukai to raise a sh*tstorm

  • http://hotmail.com JAY OF DA PEAS

    let me say this because , t-mac is a great player and because my word counts.On a scale of 1 to 50 mr rocket, played on the number 27 period…..

  • http://www.lkz.ch/basket Darksaber

    Talent is off the chains, The Mac can score in so many ways, he sseem to be toying with opponents at times. talent-wise, Tracy is top 10, period. I am not adding any injury excuses, or first round blues to this, he IS top 10 in this league.

  • http://www.lkz.ch/basket Darksaber

    Btw guys, the flashback to Elgin’s fateful career was a nice blast from the past (army reservist, weekend pass, THAT’s hard work) but all in all, one of the lazier posts on this top 50 list). Still love the slammers though.

  • http://www.lkz.ch/basket Darksaber

    And one more thing, T-Mac LOWER THAN CARMELO ASSTONY??! REALLY? no seriously, REALLY?! Gawd this list is starting to give me an ulcer already. And knowing Wade isn’t in the top 5 is not helping.

  • http://jfdl Jukai

    The only thing that shocked me was that Elgin Baylor was ranked eleven all time in 2003… what? You kidding me?

  • tealish

    Caleb: You are so wrong. Shaq would count his lucky stars if he could hit 1 in 20.

  • http://jfdl Jukai

    Also, James, sorry but I don’t really post on the weekends.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    @ Moose: They can win some games without Yao, but in order for them to start winning real playoff series’, they need him. Yao is their key to real success. Obviously McGrady is too. But give Yao his props, almost all championship-contending teams have a good, skilled big man. Having the best center in the league certainly matters.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    @ Melo: Uhhh, no. Vince Carter blew it after the Sixers series. There’s no way they could have gotten to the finals. Having Chris Bosh is nowhere near better than having Yao Ming in the paint for you. Though I like both teams, the Rockets are obviously better.

  • http://slamonline.com Simone S.Y Lawy

    @teddy, i watch nba since Jordan’s era,i’ pretty sure i watch more to compare with you, even i’m just 22, and we can tell yao is not the best in the recents game, ( there’s no comparison to those monster in 80-90′s,) amare was a PF, but he play 5 before and win the nba first team in centers spot. Timmy, he can play 4 or 5, there;s nothing different for him. Yao??? i don’t think so…

  • http://slamonline.com Simone S.Y Lawy

    they keep yao for $$$$ from those 1.3 billions yao’s supporter.

  • http://slamonline.com Simone S.Y Lawy

    out

  • Todd Spehr

    How ’bout Nique as a comparison? Dude never made it to the conference finals yet he scored over 25,000 points while his contemporaries had more team success… just a thought.

  • Young Chris MP3

    Carmelo Anthony is not better than T-Mac… But Myles and Ryan are those dudes…

  • vegas

    Why is he above parker, i hate em both, but parker does more for San Antonio

  • Ansonpanson

    why does everyone in the NBA wear one of those sleeve things????

  • andrew

    Anson – it’s a compression fabric. Stops muscles getting tired and cuts down the build up of lactic acid around the muscles, allowing them to work harder for longer. Most guys have it on their shooting arms, some will wear them as a preventative measure so muscle fatigue doesn’t turn into RSI. These guys shoot more jumpshots in practise than you or I would in a lifetime, as well as play eighty-plus games a year. Every little bit helps.

  • http://www.lkz.ch/basket Darksaber

    Andrew, spot on explanation. You know your sports medicine.

  • andrew

    Dark – I grew up in (and still work in) sports retail. We sell the Skins product instore. I have to know it, otherwise people won’t pay AUD$140 for the things.

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    Hey andrew, can you hook me up with a free shooting sleeve, then?

  • Jeter

    Fluxland. Who gave the right to call me hypocritical. I don’t know how you raised or if you were ever hugged by your parents but it is f*cking wrong to call people things. If you read my post carefully, you’d see that I was mentioning about how McGrady evolved his game to what his current team needed. And those Orlando teams called for him to do that. Let’s just talk basketball and leave inborn self-crap at the door.

  • scott

    @tad…thanks for the constructive response. You obviously know all please enlighten me with your knowledge on why Arenas, Anthony, Boozer, Davis, Iverson and Yao should be ahead of McGrady.

  • http://www.hibachi20.blogspot.com DP

    wonderful post. gives good insight on what makes T-mac a top twenty player. who doesn’t feel sorry for this guy?

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    “scott says:
    @tad…thanks for the constructive response. You obviously know all please enlighten me with your knowledge on why Arenas, Anthony, Boozer, Davis, Iverson and Yao should be ahead of McGrady.” I can agree that Anthony and Boozer should not be over McGrady, but Arenas (as much as i hate him), Davis, Iverson, and Yao are all better

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    BETCATS!!!

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    Going to the third game of the ALDS at Fenway Park tonite. Boston Red Sox gonna mop up those Angels.

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    lies lies lies

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    Dodgers and Rays>>>Red Soxs

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    BET, I’m not lying bout goin to the Red Sox game. I’ll tell you all bout it when i get back, i know you’re jealous . . . gotta go run some business the go to the Sox game. OUT.

  • scott

    @betcats…Arenas is out till December if he is lucky. Last year he played in what 15 games? I hate to say it but the guy is a greater injury risk then McGrady. Davis, Iverson and Yao didn’t make any of the All-NBA teams and didn’t finish in the top ten for the MVP if my memory serves me right but I think McGrady did both.

  • Caleb

    @tealish- yeah, true. I just say random things sometimes.

  • KA

    wth? I coulda sworn Kobe is younger than tmac…anyways, yeah, the piece is on point how debatable tmacs status is career wise. you want to like the guy for pure talent alone but he just hasn’t cut it during playoffs. the way I see it I rate him higher than vince, at least tmac looks like he cares. and as the second coming of penny he’s now the 1st coming of tmac, seeing that its obvious he’s had the better career. I just can’t hate him, his game is too nice. wack sleepy eyes tho.

  • Quail

    why even bother with this “NBA’s top 50 players” BS? we all know the last 5 are gonna be 5: Duncan, 4. CP3, 3. KG, 2. Lebron, and 1. Kobe. jeez. =/

  • http://nba.com/celtics Moose

    uhhhh, Quail? We have NO idea who the final five will be. And I disagree with your assumption, too.

  • Kostas Tsartsaris

    @scott…:none of the players you mentioned should be over TMAC but everybody thinks that they are going to contribute more to their respective teams just by playing more games for them (TMAC is a given injury-prone player that will lose games, Arenas is one more missed season away from reaching this status. For Yao , Iverson, &Melo i think that we are fooling ourselves if we don’t believe that their marketing power isn’t taken into account).

  • http://www.freewebs.com/betcats BETCATS

    Moose: i was calling you out on the Sox winning. Tori Hunter, Mark Textira, Vlad Gurrero, and all the other super stars should win. i rigged the election

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com/ RV

    Scott: Both Yao and Tmac were all nba third team this past season…Yao actually had 2 first place votes and tmac only 1…AI djust missed out on the third team, mainly due to super guards CP, deron and nash that bumped him off. MVP votes don’t mean much unless you win it. We all know the MVP will always be the “best player” on the team who’s most likely to win the championship and/or has the best record. It doesn’t always come down to the best player. Just look at the voting, pretty much the top players on teams with the top 10 records are represented 1 thru 10, Tmac gets the nod over Yao because Yao went out at the end. Had tmac gone out instead Yao would have recevied the votes and would have been top 10.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    Wow @ Simone: So you think you know more than me about the game of basketball… By saying some stupid @ss sh!t (no offense) on how Yao is not one of the best centers in the league. You sound awfully similar to one Marcus Camby.. Clearly you don’t understand what the 4 spot is. There’s only one PURE center you could argue is better than Yao, and that’s Dwight Howard. And even then, its still a hard-@ss case to make. And just so you know, I’m sure plenty of people (obviously) were watching basketball during the Jordan era…

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    I’m not comparing Yao Ming to The Stilt, or Bill Russell, or Willis Reed. I’m comparing him to the centers in the league today, and finding a skilled big man at the 5 is like finding a needle in a huge @ss haystack.

  • tealish

    The 5 is: KG, Duncan, Paul, LeBron, Kobe. You can bet on it.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    @ Caleb: Pistol Pete’s playing style was completely different from T-Mac’s. Both are sketchy analogies, but considering the players Baylor played with, his lack of a championship is more similar to T-Mac’s lack of 1st round success.

  • scott

    @RV…. The case you made for Iverson makes no sense. Iverson and McGrady are both guards and McGrady DID make All-NBA. Not saying the media is always right but according to them McGrady had the better season last year.

  • DellaBalla

    The bottom line is this all ends this year. The Rockets should finish in the top 3 and win at least thier first series. I think they will win the West. But this is stupid. T-Mac is too good to be ctiticized so much for not making it out of the first round. Last time I checked it was a team game.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    ^^^^^^^^ THANK YOU, DellaBalla. Co-Sign, especially the Western Conference Champs part. Well, that’s what a humble fan such as myself hopes for.

  • tealish

    Della: It’s impossible to win it all on your own – no argument there. But if you’re a legit superstar, deserving of being placed among the game’s elite, you should be able to carry a mediocre team past the first damn round.
    And I hate to bring up the classic ’01 Sixers example, but THAT team made it to the finals. Yes, a team where Geiger and Snow were instrumental pieces fell only to one of the most dominant teams in the modern era. That’s how you can tell an all-time great, from just a really talented player.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com/ RV

    Scott: i never said tmac didnt make an all NBA team….I said BOTH he and Yao made the third team, the AI arguement does make sense because even thought they pick two guards, they try to pick a sg and a point for every all nba team. The media isn’t saying Tmac had a better year than Yao (if that’s what you meant), Yso had more first place votes for all-nba than tmac, and for the MVP voting they weren’t going to give the MVP to an INJURED player. Yao could have been averaging 30 and 15 before getting hurt and tmac would still get more votes. Likei said before, the MVP is all about who they think will still be playing in May/june, and that’s been shown for several years now.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com/ RV

    agree with Della that it should end this year, but Tmac has done his Kobe impersonation in the playoffs before, where he decides not to shoot one game, then the next he wants to shoot all the time. He has flaked out before when it was his chance to step up. The excuses about not having a supporting cast were valid in Orlando, but here in 05 they had a better team than dallas, they had a better team than Utah in 07 also, he’s only valid excuse with Houston was this past season with the injuries and in 06.

  • Jack

    Come on man, T-Mac’s gotta be in the top 10. Sure he hasn’t got past the 1st round, but they guy’s skills are amazing.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com Hursty

    I should just let RV write everything and then co-sign it. It saves me a lot of stress reading and replying to comments.
    So, co-sign.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Vince only got past the first round when he and T Mac were on the same team. Just wanted to add that.

  • MSkittle

    Seemed low at first, but he settles for too many jumpers and is too injury prone.. Good, bold move with this one!

  • CL SMOOTH

    How is T-Mac not better than Carlos Boozer?

  • http://slamonline.com Melo2daRaptors

    @ moose. watch wen yao and mac get injured
    @teddy bear: my point is Vince’s shot was in the second round, where T-mac has never Gone

  • mogrod

    I like how you guys found someone else’s work (TMac Virgin poster) on the net and then post it on your site like you did it. It’s my fault for not putting my name or a moniker on it, but it’s insane where this picture has been and who takes credit for creating it. During the playoffs last season, a Jazz fan printed it out poster-sized to hold up during one of the games.

    Oh, i do have my original layered file to prove I made it.

  • steve

    20th? it is way overrated. I’d put him in low 40s. He is among the worst players in term of FG% either in his team or all of players in his position.

  • real talk

    mc grady has never been a great player, too many times he’s settling for that fadeaway. him , vince carter and garnett have been guys that have overrated.lebron has had guys of lesser talent and taken them farther. if lebron had yao they winnin rings.

  • Nobody

    Kobe to the top spot!!!

  • sdfsdkjf

    T-Mac should be way higher than 20.

  • Marques

    T-mac is no. 1 all day every day. annyone got a problem wit it, get at me

  • Stevie

    How could TMAC NOT be a dissapointment?
    …………………………………………….
    At 23 years old he had the best season a 23 year old has ever had in nba history. He was what lebron is right now minus 20 pounds of muscle and plus 4 inches of wingspan…. and a better jumpshot…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    He carried the talentless magic to 43 wins, finished 3rd for mvp, first-team allnba, and pushed the future champ pistons to game 7 with an epic performance in the series……………………………………………………………………………………………………………

    He averaged 32.4ppg on 47% shooting for the season, 37% 3pointers, and added to that 7rpg and 5.5apg (1.8spg and 1.1 bpg too)…… dude was on course for one of the greatest careers ever, who else has EVER been that good and talented at 23? Lebron? Kobe? Wade? Probably only Lebron to tell the truth…. because he’s the only one that was a 6-8+ freak athlete like TMac, a matchup nightmare……. TMac was the fastest guy in the league in 2003, he was unstoppable, so smooth, got SO HOT, on the open-break he was a FREAK, vision of a pointguard, height/length of a PF, strength of a small forward, speed and scoring of a 2guard, rebounding of a forward, length/shotblocking of a 4….. etc………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

    AT 23 YEARS OLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The guy is 29 now and has never lived up to potential, he shouldve been one of the 20 greatest players ever, he cracked the list at 75 for slams top players ever in 2003 as a 23 year old that only had 4 years in the league(!!!!!), he had a 31 PER that year(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), thats one of the greatest years an individual player has ever had, and if he had any help at all they woulda beat the dominant pistons because he had one of the best series a players had in the past 20 years……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

    But TMac has never had HEART since and has never been the same player again since. He’s a waste of talent. Hee shouldnt be top-20, he sucked last year, even the 22game winning streak he had his worst stretch of the season…… if he was a superstar like he used to be the Rockets wouldve been at LEAST conference finalists in 07 and last year and even 2005 (his closest year to being what he should be: wade/kobe/lebron level dominant…. like he used to be, as a 23 year old)……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    He is 29 nwo and should be at the peak of his career. All of us as fans should feel cheated. TMac is a waste of talent. Screw TMac, he ruined what could have been a GREAT career, he didnt maximize his talent, he has no heart, and he STILL has no heart (at only 29 if he wanted to he could turn it around and have a legendary season, be even better than he was at 23 and he has the best supporting cast in the leaque around him with yao and artest and etc… could win a ring…… but he wont, cuz he doesnt care)
    ………………………………………………………………………………………………………

    Lebron is 23 now and a little better than TMac was in 2002-03 as a 23 year old. GOD I HOPE he doesnt turn out like TMac did, imagine how good Lebron will be at 29 years old? Thats how good TMac should almost be right now…… TMac should be better right now at 29 than he was then, and should be right there with Wade and Kobe and Lebron as the argument over whos the best in the league……… but he isnt and wont be ever again. WHAT A WASTE!

  • blizzard

    i love t-mac but he’s dissapointing me.come on t-mac show us your wonderful talent.

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