Tuesday, February 17th, 2009 at 12:04 pm  |  59 responses

MVP Race: Post All-Star Break

Are Mamba and Bron all that different, anyway?

by John Krolik

Well friends and readers, after our little vacation in which we celebrate individual brilliance in the NBA, it’s time to get back to the time-honored practice of arguing about individual brilliance in the NBA. So, without further ado, it’s MVP race time!

1. LeBron James, Cleveland Cavaliers

Wow, this pick now requires explanation, as LeBron’s had some extremely rough shooting nights in high-profile games and the Cavaliers are now behind the Lakers in the power rankings, and Kobe’s had a few of his patented scoring explosions. So here we go:

– LeBron’s team has been even more injury-ravaged than the Bynum-less Lakers up to this point, losing 2nd-best player (despite the Mo Williams hype) Zydrunas Ilgauskas for extended time and having him struggle upon his return. Integral starter Delonte West continuing to miss time with a broken wrist, but the Cavs are still one of only three 40-win teams at this point because of LeBron’s increased workload.

– LeBron is still right at the PER record, with a narrow edge over MJ’s best statistical season at this point and a tie with Wilt Chamberlain’s second-best statistical season, and barely behind Wilt’s all-time record. The gap between LeBron and the best ever is 0.12. The gap between LeBron and Kobe is 6.64. This gap exists because LeBron is scoring more efficiently, passing better on a per-possession basis, and rebounding better on a per-possession basis, all while using more possessions. Kobe’s lone advantage is turning the ball over slightly less.

– If head-to-head is a deciding factor now, why wasn’t it during the Cavs’ 5-game winning streak against the Lakers that preceded their current two-game losing streak?

– LeBron’s defense is a significant advantage—the Cavaliers are a better defensive team by a significant margin, LeBron’s opponent PER is far lower, and the Cavaliers play 9 points per 100 possessions better defensively with LeBron on All-Stars, MVP-leaders, and Gold Medaliststhe floor while the Lakers play slightly worse defense with Kobe on the floor.

– LeBron’s +/- may be even more compelling than his record-setting conventional stats-with LeBron off the floor, the Cavs’ point margin is +15 points per 100 possessions, making them easily the best team in the League. The Cavs’ overall point margin leads the League at +9.82. When LeBron is off the floor, the Cavaliers are -8.5 points per 100 possessions—only the Kings have a worse overall margin. The result is that LeBron leads the League in net +/-, as well as conventional and advanced individual statistics. For Kobe, the Lakers are a very good +10 points with him on the floor and a solid +2.2 points with him off it. A Kobe-less Laker team would be about as good as the Hornets or Hawks, according to the numbers. While I won’t penalize Kobe for having a great team around him, LeBron’s team being a cellar-dweller without him on the floor and having the best margin in the league when he’s on it is an astonishing achievement and should be recognized.

2. Kobe Bryant, Los Angeles Lakers

Don’t sleep on the Mamba. I’d all but written him out of the MVP race this season, and all of a sudden Kobe’s dropping 61 on you. While this isn’t the Dirty 30 and the separation is important to note, wins over the Celtics and Cavs in consecutive games definitely merits some attention here at TBF Imperial Palace. This race is far from out of his hands, as the Lakers’ tremendous success matched with his unparalleled ability to turn a great game into a game you tell your kids about gives him the kind of blend of personal and team success that tends to stick in voters’ heads come ballot time. If he continues his success against elite teams while LeBron continues to struggle against them, it will be very difficult to keep him out of the one spot, even as TBF tends to favor empirical evidence over the anecdotal.

3. Chris Paul, New Orleans Hornets

He’s generally placed much lower in current MVP polls, and it makes me a little sick to my stomach. After finishing a (very, very, very) close second in the MVP voting last year, Paul goes ahead and steps his game up, bringing his rebounding to a whole new level while rising his scoring efficiency to a level above James, Bryant or Wades, keeping his passing up so that he accounts for more points than any player in the NBA, all of which put his conventional numbers (AT 24!!!!) on par with any point guards’ best season, ever, and his 29.75 PER is good for second in the League (in a metric biased against smaller players), and the best mark of any guard not named Michael Jordan (or Tracy McGrady in 2002-03, if you count him as a guard).

If you don’t like numbers: He’s generating more points than anyone on this list and doing it with a higher level of efficiency, all while rebounding at the top level for his position. That’s good.

Oh, and remember +/- from a few minutes ago? He’s second only to James with a margin of 21.2 net points against LeBron’s 22.6, and the No. 3 player is at +15. So that statistic is pretty much LeBron, CP3 and everybody else. So how bad are the Hornets with CP3 off the court? -10.7, which would make them the worst team in the League by a full point. The Heat are better with Dwyane Wade off the floor than the Hornets are with CP3 off the floor. In fact, the Kings are better with Kevin Martin off the floor than the Hornets are with CP3 off the floor. That Paul is not getting props for this season is one of the biggest travesties that I can remember in the long history of MVP race travesties. It’s not CP3′s fault that everyone dramatically overrated David West, thought Peja was back, thought James Posey was made of magic, didn’t think Tyson Chandler could go back to playing the way he had for the first half-decade of his career, and didn’t see that having no guards outside of Paul might be a bad thing. They start Rasual Butler.

So why isn’t he over Kobe? His injury saved me from having to potentially make one of the least popular calls in MVP race history and force me to make sure that Ryne wasn’t giving out my home address to keep me from insane Kobe sycophants, but ultimately with Kobe’s team’s record, it’s tough to say that he should be doing something drastically differently in terms of how he’s using his possessions. With the point guard position being so closely tied to team success, there’s more room above CP3′s head than Kobe’s to be doing something different. It’s not on any stat sheet, but I think it’s there.

4. Dwight Howard, Orlando Magic

Fourth-best team in the League, fourth highest PER—the No. 4-spot seems about right for Dwight Howard. Free-throw line dunk decision was a colossal error. With Oden still waiting to explode, Bynum hurt again and an Amar’e fire sale, Howard seems to have locked up unofficial “big man of the next generation” honors. Dwight’s in danger of a free-fall in these rankings if Jameer Nelson, who was threatening to make an appearance in the top-10, was as vital to this team as many think he is.

Bonus Discussion Question: Amar’e Stoudemire combines top-level athleticism with an offensive skill-set as good as there is among true big men—particularly when facing up—and combined scoring volume and efficiency as well as any big since Barkley and McHale. Dwight Howard has a severe lack of offensive finesse and is completely ineffective outside of the paint, but is an absolute physical marvel and is a superior all-around player. One hundred out of 100 observers now consider Howard the more valuable player. Why is the discussion regarding the value of Kobe Bryant and LeBron James so radically different? (Note: Not a statement of opinion here, just looking to get opinions. Is it about the different things required of bigs and wings?)

5. Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat

Filled with righteous anger that he’s in the race because he’s “carrying” a subpar team to a mediocre record while CP3 is carrying a worse team to a better record… Stats are certainly good, but scoring efficiency is a full 5 percent lower than Paul’s and fairly easily the lowest of anyone on this list. If you want to really be in the hunt with a mediocre team, it had better be a sure thing that the reason your stats are so good isn’t because you’re just putting up a lot of shots. With Marion experiment now a failure, we’ll see if Jermaine O’Neal and Michael Beasley (who it’s far too early to give up on) can find a chemistry that gets the Heat back at the contender level.

6. Tim Duncan, San Antonio Spurs

Too great talent.Nearly got the No. 5 spot, especially with the Spurs slowly getting their contender status back as Manu starts to round back into form, all while Duncan continues to be quietly effective. As Duncan stays, so stay the Spurs.

7. Brandon Roy, Portland Trail Blazers

Signature performances conspicuously absent recently, but he’s still a top-10 PER player and an alpha dog for a 32-20 team. Kevin Pritchard’s refusal to move small pieces and get another All-Star for Roy to play with keeps him from invading the true upper echelon. Between him, Jameer and Kevin Durant, young kids who want to learn how to score from the perimeter without choking out the offense have a lot of great role models to watch right now.

8. Yao Ming, Houston Rockets

As McGrady and Artest threaten to crumble around him, Yao played 50 games, anchored the defense, kept Houston in the playoff hunt, and has the best scoring efficiency of any player on this list. Keep going, big guy.

9. Kevin Garnett, Boston Celtics

The leader of the team with the best record in basketball, who really should probably have a representative up here, and actually has some stats to his credit. Despite the fact that his value comes from anchoring the League’s best defense, his PER, which doesn’t take defense into account, is better than that of individual standouts like Danny Granger and Kevin Durant. Seems enough for a No. 9-spot for me.

10. Pau Gasol, Los Angeles Lakers

A very small dash of love here for the League’s best second banana; No. 15 in the League in PER, is an integral part of your No. 1 in the power rankings Lakers, and had the quietest consecutive 31-15 games on 12-17 shooting in the history of ever as Kobe exploded in both of those games. With Bynum out and his side of the floor cleared, you can really see how absolutely deadly Pau is offensively; he can score with his back to the basket, face up and get by you, or hit the mid-range J. He’s really unstoppable one-on-one, and just gorgeous to watch. After a slow start, Pau is coming on extremely strong.

Previous MVP Races: Quarter | Trimester

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  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    The Hornets have a “worse” team than the Heat? Seriously? Back away from the keyboard, John, you’re soiling your good name. Actually, since you’ve probably seen 2 Heat games this season…you really don’t have any idea how poor their talent base is. You are forgiven.

  • Pingback: SLAM ONLINE |

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    It’s tough to say if Wade or CP have a worse supporting cast. In the beginning of the season, there would have been no question about it. I’m siding with Eboy and saying that the Hornets have the better team and are just underachieving. Majorly underachieving.

  • Todd Spehr

    Funny how PER is the new poster child for definitive stand-above-all greatness

  • http://iwantoutofokc.com/ James the balla

    WHAT, bron is first…

  • http://noreferences.blogspot.com/ RobFitz

    I think Tyson Chandler especially was exposed this year as a mediocre player at best, who’s outstanding at catching alley-oops from the best point guard in the game. That said, Peja and West are a better supporting pair than…Beasley and Haslem? O’Neal and Chalmers? Who are even the two main support guys on that team?

  • http://iwantoutofokc.com/ James the balla

    Wow … a nice one paragraph for Kobe. And a SOLID 6 for Bron. lol god I canèt wait until next month for the new Lebron cover!!

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    James……would you like an e-tissue?

  • http://iwantoutofokc.com/ James the balla

    lol please

  • http://iwantoutofokc.com/ James the balla

    e-blankie
    e-tissue … itès all the same.

  • http://iwantoutofokc.com/ James the balla

    Does anyone know how to change the keyboard back so that you can have question marks instead of these ÉÉÉ …

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com Eboy

    James he’s second. It’s not like he’s #9. And there’s still 30 games left. And I don’t think John has an actual MVP vote…so it’s just his opinion.

  • http://iwantoutofokc.com/ James the balla

    Still .. but I donèt feel like debating. I just wnat to know how the f()ck I change my computer back to the normal settings lol. I wnat my question marks back ÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉÉ

  • http://docfunk.blogspot.com Doc Funk

    For what it’s worth, it was a highly efficient paragraph. No wasted sentences. Very good word selection. Straight up killer instinct with the spell-check.

  • Drew

    Kobe,MVP,Hands Down.

  • http://coco-vents.blogspot.com Co Co

    Its way too early to talk about MVP’s and etc, but Lebron is going to win it. The writers and voters had already decided that coming into the season. It’s his no matter what. Kobe could play with a dsilocated ring finger, mangled pinkie and lead his team to the best record in his conference and it wouldn’t matter. Not that any of that would happen in real life, but I’m just sayin.

  • Phil B

    Did you run out of options for number ten?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    I enjoy Johns analysis, but as Todd already said I do have some reservations about putting so much weight into PER as the definitive measurement of excellence. David Robinson has a higher career PER than Wilt. Barkley is higher than Magic. Dirk is higher than KG, Kobe, Dream, Doc, Bird and Oscar Robertson. T Mac is higher than Jerry West and Elgin Baylor. Does anyone believe that any of these players are unquestionably better than the others?

  • Ken

    D-W-Y-A-N-E. Not “Dwayne”. Come on, you can do it. I have faith in you.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    And Bron and Kobes head to head matchups havent mattered as much before because they havent been the primary candidates leading their respective teams to their conferences best record until now.

  • Jack

    So it took Bynum to get hurt and Oden not producing for Dwight to become the best center in the league? wow

  • http://fdklf.com Jukai

    Lebron is still easily the MVP. The last two weeks where Kobe has been better than Lebron should not change the fact that every other week, Lebron has been better than Kobe.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Ryan Jones

    Who cares. You people argue about stupid stuff.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Ryan Jones

    Huh? Oh. Sorry. Good to be back!

  • http://idunkonthem.blogspot.com/ albie1kenobi

    hey Mr Jones, where have you been this weekend? it would have been nice to hear your thoughts about all the scripted events that happened this weekend. were you chasing Miss Melanie Collins around campus?

  • http://slamonline.com/online/category/blogs/fedora/ John Krolik

    I hope these rankings show that PER isn’t an end-all for me, it’s just an easy way to try and sum up a lot of what these guys do with a catch-all stat that saves me a lot of words-these are long enough as it is. And I hope it’s clear that I put things like team record, +/-, and stats based on their contribution to the team with as much, if not more, weight as PER-otherwise, Kobe would be seventh.

  • Rome

    Man I love b-ball stats, thats the only reason I play NBA2K, is to see what kind of stats my guys can put up.

  • http://idunkonthem.blogspot.com/ albie1kenobi

    i almost feel like reading this was like reading a lab report. but at the same time, i understand that’s why you use a whole bunch of numbers to back up your argument.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Stats? What is this, baseball?!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Ryan Jones

    I’m not feeling Melanie Collins. At least, that’s what I told my wife when I convinced her to rent Ms. Collins our spare bedroom. Holler!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Ryan Jones

    Anyway, I was in Tulsa visiting fam over the weekend and barely touched a computer. As expected, I was missed.

  • http://idunkonthem.blogspot.com/ albie1kenobi

    @Ryan: you were missed here, but you didn’t miss much.

  • http://idunkonthem.blogspot.com/ albie1kenobi

    regarding to the all star weekend that is. did you catch any of it while having fam obligation?

  • https://twitter.com/Neuronautuk mat smith

    James, control panel, keyboard, change preference back to English US

  • http://myspace.com/arodakaroman and1ballermj2350

    GO SPURS!!!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Ryan Jones

    albie: Very little — saw some of the skills comp and Dunk Contest, part of the game. Was otherwise busy chasing small children around my parents’ living room (not in a bad way) and getting drunk with my siblings. No complaints. Life is good.

  • http://iwantoutofokc.com/ James the balla

    @Mat Smith. Yeah I went there but it doesnt give me the option. Just rate of which my cursor blinks!! Look at this …ÉÉÉÉÈÈÈÈ;èèèèè^¨ÇÇÇÇÇ lol this is what I am working with!!!

  • The Seed

    Stats are overrated in basketball, Did your team win or lose, to me is deciding factor. If the Lakers finish wiht the best record. Kobe should get it and Lebron should be second. Kobe and Lebron play two different positions and Kobe is a SHOOTING GUARD-who likes to shoot. Lebron is a Magic johnson type player- who tries to get stats. Lebron even said this during rookie challenge, saying he looks at his stats everynight to see weres he’s at. So throw the PER out the windon and lets see who team with injuries finish first in win/loses in the NBA.

  • http://reflex.com Reflex

    It needs to be said again but do you really think CP3s squad (with supporting 2 All Stars no less) is weaker than Wade’s team of Rooks?? Really??

    WOOOOOOOWWW!

    I’m lost for words…

  • http://iwantoutofokc.com/ James the balla

    The only thing that I find funny is that. The ONLY stat is better then Kobes is assists. The rebounding doesnèt even matter because they are tied for Offensive rebounds per game. But defensive rebounds, well no sh1t. It would be sad if the man one inch shorts then dwight howard is getting 7 rebounds a game. If anything, Bron should be at 9 or 10 considering him and dwight are almost the same size. Kobe would shoot a higher percentage as well if he always wasnt shooting jump shots. Bron is all about lay ups and dunking the same way everytime. But look at his percentage from free throw back.
    Whoever has the best record will get MVP. Even though it is deserved by Kobe for dropping 35 a game a couple seasons back and losing it to Nash.

  • http://idunkonthem.blogspot.com/ albie1kenobi

    Ryan, then i stick to the original statement: you didn’t miss much. it was underwhelming. Reggie made it worse.

  • Max

    why arent dirk and joe johnson on the list? and cmon dont u think u should slow down with the whole lebron thing. Comparing him with people like wilt, first let him develop a solid jumper and let him win a few championships. Hes good, but his game’s just much to raw

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    I might put Dirk on the list over Pau, but I think John’s right in leaving Joe off for the moment. The Hawks have slowed down recently, and they need to win during this tough couple months for him to get back on the list.

  • http://www.kicksonfire.com Anton

    CP3 was robbed last year

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    See this is why I can’t discuss Bron/Kobe anymore. For every Myles, Bodie, B. Long (sometimes) who can discuss this using cohesive thoughts… there’s 57 James the Balla. LeBron is only better than Kobe in assists because you forgot to mention points and chose to dismiss rebounds and fg%. Is there a way to give timeouts to certain posters? Like a stupid comment means you can’t post for the next hour? They do something like that on a soccer forum I go to with yellow and red cards.

  • http://iwantoutofokc.com/ James the balla

    Yeah I am stupid. Good one. May I have another.

  • Cal Peet

    All I had to read was this tidbit (“Lakers play slightly worse defense with Kobe on the floor.”) to know that PER is an absolute Fantasy game analysis tool, and to further disregard it and the article that refers to it.

    Kobe is one of the best perimeter defenders in the league, if not the best, and to write that the Lakers are worse when he is on the floor is an absolute joke of a stat. Maybe Luke Walton should replace him…LOL

  • Canuck

    I still believe that LeBron’s MVP. Statistically he averages more points, assists, rebounds, steals, blocks, and shoots a higher percentage. Sure a lot of his points are layups and dunks, but last time I checked there were no bonus style points for hitting fade-away long range shots as apposed to a dunk. The way I see it, LeBron does more for his team, more effectively. Now that’s not to say Kobe won’t make it a helluva close one for the MVP.

  • http://slamonline.com/online/category/blogs/fedora/ John Krolik

    PER doesn’t measure defense,genius. That’s from +/-, which measures how many points the Lakers give up when Kobe’s on the floor and when he’s off of it. How that’s fantasy game analysis, I’m not sure, since it records what happens in the actual game. Kobe’s great when engaged, but he conserves a lot of energy on the defensive end. Trevor Ariza replaces him, and he plays more intense defense. ROTFLCOPTERS.

    It was impressive how stupid you made yourself look while trying to discredit something you clearly have absolutely no idea about even before you capitalized “Fantasy” in the middle of a sentence for no reason. Have a nice day.

    Folks, all stats are not PER. Coming up with one argument against PER does not discredit all analysis other than what you think. Oh, and ALL CAPS MAKE IT OKAY TO SAY THINGS THAT AREN’T SUPPORTED BY ANYTHING. That’s a good thing to remember.

  • Jessdogg

    Lebron has 2 bad performances against 2 top teams but how easily we forget about his performance against the defending champion celtics.
    38 points
    7 rebounds
    6 assist
    4 steals
    3 blocks
    .520% from field, .420% from 3-point, 1.00 from free throw

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