Tuesday, March 3rd, 2009 at 10:02 am  |  62 responses

Is Durant The Anti-Battier?

Can +/- expose great players’ flaws or do our eyes deceive us?

by John Krolik

For nearly a month now, the thing du jour for basketball junkies like me has been the fantastic Michael Lewis article in the New York Times on Shane Battier that brought, among other things, the +/- stat into the mainstream. +/-, for those of you who don’t know, is the measure of how well a team plays with a certain player on the court versus how they play when that players off the court. It’s pretty interesting stuff, and helps to measure the value of guys who coaches love but don’t have contributions on the stat sheet, like a Ben Wallace, Jamario Moon or Andrei Kirilenko, all of whom have great +/- ratings.

By and large, there appears to be a real validity to the statistic and is a whole new way to look at which players are contributing without needing a number-crunching formula or the word of someone WHO DOESN’T CARE WHAT SOME STAT SHEET SAYS BECAUSE THIS IS THE BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD, PERIOD.

The list of the top-five players in the League according to +/- tells you that it both has some validity and is far from perfect:

1. LeBron James
2. Chris Paul
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Lamar Odom
5. Jason Kidd

Okay. James, Paul and Wade are the kind of names you’d expect to see at the top of a list. LeBron and Wade are in most people’s top four for MVP, and Paul is having one of the best seasons a point guard has ever had. So far, so good. But Lamar Odom? Not many people have him as one of the best players in the League. In fact, I’d go so far as to guess he won’t even get the most MVP votes on his own team. (We go out on limbs like that here at TBF.) And Jason Kidd isn’t quite MVP-caliber anymore either.

+/-, both in the raw form used by NBA.com and the adjusted form used at 82games.com, has some serious flaws. (In fairness to Lewis’ article, he acknowledges this flaw and says the Rockets use an adjusted form of +/- whose formula is not available to the public.) If a player plays on a terrible team who gets crushed when he sits and only loses by a little when he’s in, his +/- can be Defensive stopper, exhibit a.higher than a guy whose team is good when he sits and better when he’s in. The worse your backup is, the better your +/-. Maybe a defensive stopper is only in while the other team’s best scorer is playing. Maybe a guy always comes in with another player who is either great or terrible. There are just as many holes in +/- as there are in any other statistical measure. But does the fact that +/- cannot be accepted as dogma mean it should be completely disregarded? Of course not.

So to help try and ballpark +/-’s actual value, it’s important to find case studies. And you’re not going to find a better one than Kevin Durant of the Oklahoma City Thunder. Durant appears to be a player both scouts and stat geeks can agree on. He’s 6-9 with a wingspan that’s even more impressive, he handles like a shooting guard, has one of the purest strokes in basketball and understands the game at a level far beyond his years. His moves from the perimeter are calculated and gorgeous to watch, from sweeping crossovers for smooth finger rolls to jab-step set-up moves to long-range jumpers that find twine time after time. He can even put on bursts of acceleration and throw it down on unsuspecting defenses. He is poetry in a prototype body.

Statistically, he’s showing all the makings of being one of the best scorers in NBA history. He’s averaging 26 ppg on a fantastic 59 percent True Shooting Percentage, which is actually better than, believe it or not, LeBron and Kobe’s career high in scoring efficiency. He appears destined to be not just a great shot-creator but one of the budding great scorers to ever pick up a basketball, and his rebounding and passing are even coming around. When the Thunder came to town, I made sure not to miss the chance to see Kevin Durant live.

But then why is his +/- an abysmal -6.4 on one of the worst teams in the entire league? Can a player as obviously good as Durant be secretly bad? (If you’re wondering if any other team’s best player has a negative +/-, the answer is no, unless you count Derrick Rose.) The issue here is Durant’s defense–he makes the Thunder 2.7 points per 100 possessions better offensively, but Durant costs the Thunder a whopping 9.1 points per 100 possessions on defense. This is consistent with last year, when +/- found him to be the worst defender in the League.

My first reaction? Bull-Pucky. Players on bad teams who play a ton of minutes can often have Durant's specialtywonky +/- scores, and a player as good as Durant clearly cannot be a detriment to a team as bad as the Thunder. Durant’s backups could be playing amazing in spurts, the Thunder might be better in garbage time, other players’ best players might get benched with Durant, something. Besides, I can’t think of a way a wing defender could be so absolutely horrendous defensively that he couldn’t be hidden, especially not one as good offensively as Durant. (Case study: Steve Nash maintained one of the best overall +/- ratings in the League during the D’Antoni years.)

But I decided to see if the Thunder actually did play better without Durant over full games instead of in the short spurts than made up Durant’s odd +/- rating. And they actually have, albeit briefly so far. When Durant went down, the Thunder were on a seven-game losing streak despite a string of amazing scoring performances from Durant. The game he was injured, the Thunder took the Mavericks to overtime, and have rolled off a quick two-game winning streak.

Now, is it time to toss out Durant after two quick wins over the Grizzlies and Mavericks? Of course not. A million times no. And even if the Thunder play inspired ball during the two weeks Durant is out, all it proves is that he has to work on his defense, and Scott Brooks has to work harder to hide him on that end of the floor so that he can use his phenomenal talents in a way that can fully benefit the team. But this is something I’m going to keep an eye on as someone curious about the value of +/- and the way players are valued in the NBA.

Perhaps Russell Westbrook, the rookie with an brick-happy perimeter game, dubious finishing abilities, and a below league-average TS% but a staggering +10 +/- rating, is the true prize of the Thunder’s young duo. On the flip side, it’ll be interesting to see how the Cavaliers play without Ben Wallace, who appears more than replaceable on the stat sheet but had a fantastic +10.6 rating. If injuries to our favorite players are to occur, we may as well take the opportunity to try out a good, old-fashioned hardwood science experiment.

  • Add a Comment
  • Share
  • RSS

Tags: , , , , , , , ,

  • http://www.slamonline.com Ryan Jones

    Fantastic? Hmmm…

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    Ryan, you’re not into +/- stats either, I see?

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Um, it could be that the Thunder are 15-45.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    You should have done this with a team that has a .500 record, like say Detroit (and not because i’m a fan). I would love to see someone like AI’s =/- ranking.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Or +/- ranking…whichever works for you.

  • http://ittakesanationofmillionstoholdthissac.blogspot.com ciolkstar

    TAD’s right on this one, Durant has played about 90% of the total minutes for a team that is 15-45, including a bunch of blowouts. Plus/minus by itself and out of context can be one of the most misleading stats.

  • http://coco-vents.blogspot.com Co Co

    Rolling my eyes.

  • http://slamonline.com Tzvi T

    While +- used to be under the radar, in no way did Lewis make it mainstream. ESPN has been including it in boxscores–as well as NBA and Yahoo.com–for atleast the current season. The stats is old and outdated; it’s all about adjusted +- now. And, like you said, none of these can be trusted 100%, as they have flaws.

  • Blue

    Interesting…Is Shane worth more to the Rockets success than Tracy?

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Dikembe is worth more to the Rockets at this point.

  • http://ittakesanationofmillionstoholdthissac.blogspot.com ciolkstar

    …but his defense is pretty bad on the ball, and so is the entire team’s for that matter.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Ryan Jones

    I think the non-traditional stats have a lot of validity. I also think I my feelings about that particular article are well-known.
    Difference of opinion gives us all something to talk about, though, so I’m not mad.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    That it does. I just don’t know if Durant was a good case study.

  • http://www.myspace.com/hemantsbeats what

    I ain’t no math expert but I would think comparing two players based on +/- only makes sense if they are playing similar roles on similar caliber teams. So in other words comparing Kevin Durant to Al Jefferson would make sense, but comparing him to Kobe Bryant or Al Horford wouldn’t make much sense.

  • http://theghostofroyhobbs.blogspot.com Mo Charlo

    Anything that suggests Ben Wallace is more valuable than Kevin Durant sounds like “Bull-pucky” to me (to quote the article).

  • http://www.myspace.com/hemantsbeats what

    By the way I wonder what Mark Madsen’s career +/- is.

  • littleshotlarry

    I’m wondering if there is more at play than just Durant’s defense being bad. Maybe whenever Durant goes off, other teams psychologically adjust to the onslaught and play harder, knowing they can beat the team as a whole. And then the Thundercat’s whole team defense just can’t handle it.

  • http://theghostofroyhobbs.blogspot.com Mo Charlo

    what is on to something, I think. Ben Wallace compared with Malik Rose, or Dampier would make sense.

  • littleshotlarry

    … or wait, does +- actually work that way?

  • http://docfunk.blogspot.com Doc Funk

    I think Krolik has a great efficiency rating by refuting Michael Lewis’ 8-page article in a single page.

  • Pingback: Tuesday Bolts - 3.3.09 | Daily Thunder.com - Where Thunder Happens

  • http://apeachbasketandadream.wordpress.com Peach B.

    I’ve always liked this stat. Before we go running off and saying Ben Wallace is more valuable to the Cavs than Kevin Durant is to the Thunder, let’s think.

    +/- measures how well a team plays when a player is on the court. In the curious case of Ben Wallace, we all know he’s a better defender than Durant. But I think his value to the offense might be covered up by the fact that LeBron James and Mo Williams are going to get their numbers regardless. Even if Ben Wallace is on the court line driving jumpers with defenders sagging off of him, he’s going to get numbers because he has two people to create for him and make his job easy.

    Is Durant afforded that same luxury?

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Wait, Russell Westbrook has dubious finishing abilities? I thought he was a beast going to the rack.

  • http://ittakesanationofmillionstoholdthissac.blogspot.com ciolkstar

    He is AllenP, but he only finishes like 55% of his shots in close. I guess he botches a ton of high degree of difficulty layups. It was brought up in a discussion of Rondo (who’s finishes closer to 70% of his shots at the rim)

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Interesting.
    I now play with the Thunder on NBA 2K9. I used to roll with the Pistons, but much like the team in real life that was too frustrating.
    Just in case anybody was curious.

  • Pingback: Linked On Sports - LinkedOnSports.com

  • WhaHuh

    +/- is skewed for bigmen. I REALLY dont like it as a statistic used by itself.

  • niQ

    really? i NEVER thought durant’s dense was THAT bad.. although i have never seen him play live, i see him collect a lot of blocks..

  • niQ

    by dense i mean *defense

  • http://theghostofroyhobbs.blogspot.com Mo Charlo

    Westbrook missed about five layups last night, all with varying degrees of difficulty.

  • Pingback: March 3rd Link Dump « To The Tin

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com/ RV

    It’s the Mcgrady effect. Teammates stand and watch him score, meaning less assists, rebounds, steals, etc. The team therefore plays worse, and therefore Durant has a bad + or =.

  • http://twentythreenine.blogspot.com Russ Bengtson

    So would the Rockets not trade Battier for Durant?

  • DM

    This is probably all true but he is a great learner and will no doubt improve defensively. He really has to get stronger but with his wingspan he could be a good defender, just not sure he has the lateral quickness which will come with increased strength.

  • Phil B

    by no means is durant the anti-battier. he’s not great at defense, but +/- is kinda skewed. the dude is legit.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Justin Walsh

    I hate the +/-, PER stats quite a bit because I feel the stats hold more weight than they are worth. This is a good look into it for sure, but a: I didn’t like the NYTimes article and b: as I said, I hate +/- and PER.

  • giogolo

    they should take into account player’s +/- and differentiate in their team’s wins and in their losses
    that way they could come up with a real formula or % of how much a player really contributes to their respective teams in a win and/or in a loss.

  • Franchise

    I bet Charles Oakley +/- rating was better than Battier’s.

  • Wilford Brimley

    I like the fact that at least newer statistics like +/-, PER, Winshares, etc. are being discussed legitimately. Some of them have complicated formulas, but each one tries to give us a better picture of what is actually happening on the court.

    Of course many of these stats have flaws when taken individually. But so do so-called “expert” scouting reports. Look at all the poor draft picks, just about every single one was based on scouting reports that said a guy was can’t-miss talent. Even on the college level, this type of statistical analysis can offer at least another perspective. Maybe players would have been more accurately-valued. Of course, there are many things that these statistics can’t tell us (heart, motivation, character, etc.)

    I think ultimately it’s not about stats vs. game-film. It’s about learning how to combine these different tools to try and get the best objective understanding of the game. If the goal is to win, shouldn’t we try to use every tool available to us to try and figure out what causes winning, and then pursue those factors?

  • http://slamonline.com Adam Fleischer

    Isn’t Durant’s plus minus not so great cause there’s rarely a plus for the Thunder as a team when they take the court? This is definitely a tricky stat, but dope article, John.

  • http://holleringinto.wordpress.com/ Nick the Great

    I am all for increased statistical analysis, especially in sports where it has done numerous beneficial things (like teach people the value of OBP in baseball)– that being said, sometimes it is misleading and gives way to discussion that we don’t actually need, especially when the numbers don’t tell the whole story. For example, of COURSE the Thunder are better with Durant than they are without him, and OF COURSE he is a better asset to a team than Battier is. I first want to point out that the sample size of how the Thunder play without Durant is wayyyyy tooooo small to be of any kind of real consequence. Second, does anybody really think that Battier and Durant’s +/- would remain the same should they be traded for one another? I have a feeling that Durant’s would skyrocket were he sharing the court with T-Mac, Yao, and Artest and Battiers would plummet should he have to lace them up for OKC every night. I am all for playing devil’s advocate for the purpose of discussion, but when you’re merely knocking down a straw man, I kind of have to wonder what’s the point…

  • http://holleringinto.wordpress.com/ Nick the Great

    After reading my post I noticed that it seemed like I am knocking on John & his article. That wasn’t meant to be the case, in fact, I actually agree with his central thesis. Just to clarify, the straw man that I am talking about is the application of the +/- on this particular example and it’s usefulness as a formula. In a nutshell what I am whining about is- if you want to conduct an examination to determine the value of the formula than there are probably better sets of tests than Battier vs Durant.

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    Nick, I’m curious… What two players would you suggest? I’d say John picked a great role player and limelight player to illustrate the strengths and weaknesses of the +/-.

  • http://slamonline.com Ben Osborne

    Lang put me on to this hysterical recent post by wizznutzz: http://www.wizznutzz.com/2009/02/nba-trade-deadline-came-and-went-last.html
    Their take on +/- is pretty funny.

  • elvis14

    Who’s your daddy? Battier!

    9F

  • Pingback: The WrapUp - LinkedOnSports.com

  • http://holleringinto.wordpress.com/ Nick the Great

    @Ryne — if it were me, and I really have no intention of actually combing though individual +/- stats (I’m just not that committed to the topic), I probably would have included two players that are a little more evenly matched, both in terms of supporting cast and talent. For example, John highlights Lamar at the start of the article, I would be curious to see how his +/- matches up with somebody like Rashard Lewis’ (I have no idea how they match up), but are 3′s on upper echelon teams, but both guys are second or third options (at least they were when everybody was healthy). And again, I am not trying to knock on John or the article. Obviously if I feel compelled to post about it, which I never do, he must’ve done a good job, I just found the two players in the example a bit curious.

  • http://holleringinto.wordpress.com/ Nick the Great

    And also, I apologize again for continuously coming off like a complete dick– I assure you it’s not how I sound in my head…

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    Charles Oakley’s +/- rating must have been like +50 per game, even if he didn’t score a single point. The Oak Tree is awesome; word to the Anthill.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    Interesting piece, John Krolik.

Advertisement