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Monday, March 9th, 2009 at 11:25 am  |  291 responses

The Fans Speak: DWill > CP3

by Ryne Nelson

I’m not one of those people who hates Charley Rosen, and after yesterday’s column regarding Deron Williams and Chris Paul, it’s safe to say I won’t be joining the hater ranks anytime soon. Several months ago, Lang and I had a semi-heated email debate about who’s the better 1, and Rosen argues in Deron’s favor with much of the same points. Rosen presents no ground breaking information to support his stance, but his opinion is not why I’m bringing this up.

The Jazz are playing their best basketball since the days of the Mailman and Short Shorts. And this time they have a star who clearly has no trouble delivering on Sundays. Even without a fully healthy Boozer, Utah’s riding an NBA-best 11-game win streak into the upper half of the Western Conf. standings. Mark Jackson, who some would say knows a thing or three about good point guard play, even put Deron atop his list of best point guards this season (here’s MJax’s top-five, from left-to-right), despite cries of heresy from fantasy heads and prominent stat geeks of the same employ.

I’d say the debate is alive and well.

Yeah, it seems like the only debate more taboo than CP3/DWill is Kobe and LeBron, but right now, we actually have some clear evidence of a shift in the public’s perception. Today’s poll on the FoxSports.com asks which point guard How's this for truth in numbers?will have the better career. I dropped a quick vote for Deron, and to my surprise a solid majority of the 8,500 votes were on my side. How’s that for truth in numbers?

OK, it has to be said that the poll question is about who will have a better career and not necessarily who’s had the best career (or season) up to this point. But, even still, this is pretty astounding–that the majority of fans believe that when it’s all said and done, Deron Williams will achieve more in the League than Chris Paul. And isn’t that what you ultimately want when you’re building around your floor leader?

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  • niQ

    lol. why don’t we wait til one of them wins a chip ;p

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com/ BETCATS

    the fans are wrong

  • http://ungoinkillmepannuh.blogspot.com Esco

    The fans are just as correct as they are during the All-Star voting.

  • bballer

    Mark Jackson’s top five point guards isn’t bad at all. I agree with that list.

  • Fred34

    Deron is very (very) good – but he’s no CP3

  • http://www.lkz.ch Darksaber

    not that i trust polls from FOX, but grazie to them “fans”. I just enjoy watching Deron more than Mr. Bump&Undercut.

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    And Deron’s not trying to be CP3, either, Fred. He respect Chris’ strengths, and he knows how to exploit Paul’s weaknesses much better than any one else (as evidenced by his NBA career record of 10-2 against Paul). As long as Deron’s in the West, Chris Paul doesn’t win a chip.

  • http://dime dennis

    D-Will and CP3 are both some of my favorite pro players.

  • http://www.lkz.ch Darksaber

    Both PG’s are the cream of the crop though. And their teams are doing well lately, can’t wait for the playoffs to begin

  • busterjonez

    Heh, you based a column’s conclusion on an online poll with 8,400 participants?

    GIS for “freep this poll”

    Not that I disagree with you.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com/ BETCATS

    Raymond Felton had a 10 assist 0 turnover statline in the win over the Knicks. Not related, but he might be the 10-11th best Point Guard in the NBA.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    I reckon that CP3 has had the better season. Still as I’ve argued earlier, Deron is a tougher matchup for opposite teams in a playoffs series, that I have to go with him as No. 1. To much size, savy, shooting, and strength.

  • Kozmic

    I co sign BET…

  • http://www.hoopmixtape.com Simon S.Y Lawy

    D-will is better in my book.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    *therefore I have to…

  • Fred34

    I dunno Ryne, put Paul on the Jazz instead of Deron and you don’t think his chances of getting one would be just as good if not better? I mean the Jazz’s roster is heads and shoulder above the Hornets, West is aiight but hot and cold and that’s about it – Peja is past his prime and then they have a bunch of kids who try to shoot long ball. When they miss they lose.

  • jdubbs29

    When you think of basketball, you think of Lebron, Kobe…and Nash. People used to say “Steve, be careful, don’t swim with the sharks.” Well, he’s FASTER than the sharks. Nash is tops in my book.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Pahqq-1hp0

  • Torrance

    Polls are… polls. People see a winning streak, people think they see the better player. I’d still take CP over DW anyday.

  • Exile

    Solid list. Haven’t watched enough of CP3 (Crazy eh?)… but the rest I’m comfortable with.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    CP3 is better than Deron in every significant statistical category this year. Look it up, I’ll wait. The Hornets are also enjoying a 7-game winning streak of their own. I’m just saying. Deron’s only advantage on CP3 is really his size. However, when you break it down, you can see that CP3 is a much better rebounder and at least an equal defender. If you look up NBA Hot Spots, you can see that CP3 has 191 makes in the paint at a 58% clip compared to 157 makes for DWill at a 56% clip. So basically, DWill’s size doesn’t make him a better rebounder, defender or slasher than Paul.
    Here’s my question to Ryne and everybody else that’s on the DWil side of this argument : WHAT CAN DERON WILLIAMS DO BETTER THAN CHRIS PAUL ON A BASKETBALL COURT?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Ryan Jones

    Because I am contractually obligated:
    “Don’t get caught in the LeBron James pipe dream. The best King James can ever be is an average NBA player.”
    —Charley Rosen, wwfollower.com, 2003

  • Connor

    Good list MJax, and anybody who says DWill is worse than CP3, wouldn’t you compare head to head stats? Because Deron is clearly better when they play each other.

  • catalan

    Deron. No doubt.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Connor, that only means that Utah is a better team than NO.

  • Dubya

    I got it! have them go at it one on one next all star break

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    I don’t understand how people just ignore the rebounding and steal numbers. And also say Deron is a much better shooter while ignoring the percentages that say otherwise. But I’ve already said all that carry on.

  • Joey

    Who has dwill made better?? has he made an all star like west? (boozer doesnt count because he was going to be an all star anyway, west was a guy averagin like 4 points and had everyone looking him off) Cp has better stats and better intangibles

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    If size was such a huge thing for point guards to have Sun Yue would be getting major burn in LA.

  • http://slamonline.com Nw09

    I wish people will stop comparing present NBA players. Dereon Williams and Chris Paul are both great and future hall of fame point guards, their skill set is very nice. They both trick move alot during games, the cross over and shakes etc, and they both and can you at least 30 points and 15 assists, but I’ll give the edge to Chris Paul.

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    If you wanna throw team sucess into it Cp3′s team had like the 3rd best record in the league last year and this year with injuries they’re still up there

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    Fred, it’s tough to say how good Chris Paul would be if he were with the Jazz. Right now, I couldn’t imagine a better fit for Utah than Deron. Chris in a Jazz jersey would look as strange as Deron in a Hornets uniform. I do know this: Deron would have better stats running the Hornets’ system. As much as people talk about how Sloan loves to run the pick-and-roll, no player does it more often than Paul. N.O. also puts the ball in CP3′s hands for more possessions.

  • Danny W

    In my opinion, CP3, Tony Parker, then DWill. For this Season, so far.

  • riggs

    im with my man d-will, lightskin brothers stand up!

  • http://www.lkz.ch Darksaber

    Yep, Toni Toné Tony is incredible this season. Right up there in terms of offensive dominance with the other two

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com/ Moose

    Dare I say that Rondo is having a better season than Nash? I think I do.

  • http://apeachbasketandadream.wordpress.com/ Peach B.

    I will take a healthy Deron Williams over Chris Paul any day. Size and skill aside, DWill is a much more levelheaded player and I I like that in a point guard.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    So we’re suppose to believe that D-Wil is better than CP3 even though CP3 is statistically better in every single aspect of the game, has received serious MVP consideration, is a perennial all star and was ahead of him in the Olympic team (he would have been a starter if Kidd hadn’t received a ‘lifetime achievement’ starting spot. I’m through with this faux debate. Holla at me when D-Wil makes the all-star game.

  • http://slam weezyleezy

    i’m glad someone brought up Mr. Longoria becuz he’s BALLIN right now.

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    There is nothing tangible anyone can say that makes Deron a better player. ‘He’s taller’ or ‘ I just like Deron better’ are the only two arguements people can make. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but none of you can say that Deron is a better player and then prove it with numbers or otherwise, at the Paul supporters have some stats and facts to back them up.

  • JoeMaMa

    DWill puts up numbers in the regimented Sloan structure. It feels like the Hornets base everything on Paul.
    And weezyleezy (?) is so right about TP. He’s got my vote for the best. Because he has chips!!!!!

  • riggs

    meh i dont care much for this debate, d-will has a much better cast so he doesnt need to pad his stats while cp3 is the opposite, theyre pretty much tied imo with cp3 winning only in recognized achievements.

  • http://coco-vents.blogspot.com Co Co

    Ryan has that Charley Rosen quote on some auto text type ish…..

  • From out of Nowhere

    I lucked out and got both of them on my fantasy team this year… D-Will’s going to be great, but I think CP3 will be better.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    JoeMaMa, has this regimen prevented Stock and Malone from putting up numbers? Doesn’t Williams have the ball in his hands ALL the time?
    riggs, 1- what stat is CP3 padding? Assists?! 2- what are Deron’s ”unrecognized” achievements?
    Again, as Bryan said, D-Wil’s fans have to resort to ‘untangibles’, ‘gut feeling’ or ‘preferences’ to argue that he’s the better player because they can’t base it on facts. Saying that you prefer Deron is not a matter of debate.

  • JoeMaMa

    Z – I agree. But when two of the greatest players ever come around, you make a system to suit them, ie. pick’n'roll.
    How about this? Deron’s taken his team to the conference finals, losing to the champion Spurs in six. Has CP gone that far? Do we base value on numbers, or winning?

  • http://docfunk.blogspot.com Doc Funk

    Shamockeries like this tend happen whenever Utah residents get together for a common cause.

  • http://www.kicksonfire.com Anton

    CP3 > all. He can leave the game halfway through, bowl for an hour, come back and still record 12 assists.

  • http://docfunk.blogspot.com Doc Funk

    @Anton, he would also bowl 300

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    We cannot have a discussion based on something Rosen said.
    That has to be illegal or something.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    JoeMaMa, according to that reasoning, isn’t TP better than both of them since he has 3 rings and an NBA Finals MVP? The Jazz are a better team, that’s not really debatable. They’re deep and are better than the Hornets at every position except pg. And they have an excellent pg so it’s not even a liability. Having said that, I don’t see how that makes D-Wil a better player than CP3.

  • littleshotlarry

    Chris Paul just has that something. Deron’s got drive, but Chris Paul has DRIVE. Know what I mean? I think that it will show in the long run. All he needs is a slightly deeper team and the wins will come easy. And of course, statistically so far CP is superior. I personally think his intangibles are through the roof. But honestly, if I had to pick one for a team, I might have to think about it, they’re both so damn good.

  • Josh

    @Z riggs makes an awesome point. People often say “Paul is better because look at his stats, and he has less support than Deron!” but that’s kind of the point. Deron’s stats will always be less because he has other players that can do more. Whereas Paul has assists because he essentially dishes to people who jack up shots all the time, Deron has a team with more experience, that will make the extra pass or use some post moves, taking down his assist numbers. Don’t get me wrong, both are awesome, but when you look at stats, the excellence of Deron’s team will bring his down, not raise them up. Switch point guards (and style of play a little by extension) and I think you’d see a similar disparity going the other way.

  • Horsey

    Chris beats Williams in the foloowing categories: points, assists, rebounds(!), steals, field goal%, three point%, free throw%, and turnovers all while playing just a minute and a half more. Deron only wins in blocks (he has 13 to chris’ 9) while standing 3 inches taller.

    Better player: Chris
    Better team: Deron
    Better team player: Chris

    period.

  • rob

    joemama! cp lost to the spurs in 7 homeboy! u cant argue anything, stop bein a fanboy! cp3 is the truth,HE DELIVERS THE GOODS! he backs it up. and the jazz will never beat the lakers or spurs in a 7 game series. the hornets are a better matchup against those teams. CP3!!!! WHOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

  • littleshotlarry

    Man, do they jack up shots sometimes. It’s like they say “oh I got a pass from CP3, better shoot it!” This is a good point.

  • Horsey

    it’s not just looking at the stats though, utah is only half a game ahead of new orleans despite having the clearly better team. can anyone really say the a chris paul for deron williams trade wouldn’t make the jazz better than they are now?

  • http://phoenixsunsrising.blogspot.com Hersey

    Hope they meet in the playoffs to help settle this. The Hornets are totally dependent on Paul. I’m not even a Chris Paul fan but when I watch that dude play he seems to be on another level. He’s got that Nash on steroids fire to him too that doesn’t show up on the stat sheet.

  • littleshotlarry

    It’s funny. I’m pro CP3 all the way, but I can’t help but think if he was in the Jazz there would be some serious growing pains for him.

  • http://www.myspace.com/mcnarrative Kieran

    Just shows how much fans know

  • Beefcake

    First things first. If you put CP3 in Utah’s offense he doesn’t fit. Right now CP3 has the ball in his hands for 20 seconds passes it and get’s an assist. In Utah’s offense he would be required to set pass the ball set screens make cuts and still run the offense. Don’t get me wrong CP3 is amazing and I do love to watch him play but if Deron had the ball in his hands as often as CP3 he would easily get as many assists. Deron doesn’t have to score but still manages to only be a point and an assist behind paul. Overall basketball play on a TEAM it is Deron hands down.

  • Horsey

    growing pains? because all his teammates are better and he needs to defer to them, right? as a starter in the all star game (plenty of players to “defer” to) he racked up 14, 14, and 7 with 1 turnover. in 29 minutes. i know the guys out there might not have the same intensity, but no one wanted to lose that game and chris got those numbers before it got ugly.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    The whole ‘system’ thing is soooo overrated. Great players get theirs. Period. The only system that greatly affects players’ stats is Mike D’s. LeBron James, for example, was putting up the same numbers that he’s putting up now on horrendous Cavs teams 2-3 years ago. There is no reason to believe that CP3 would not be as dominant in Utah. He’d be running the pick n roll to death and Utah doesn’t have other guys that really handle the rock like that (Brewer is essentially a 3). Quite frankly, I really don’t know what else to say. I’ve dropped every stat and every fact that I could find and they all favor CP3 pretty much.

  • Jacob

    mark jackson had it all right

  • Beefcake

    The point is Deron is as close as you can get to CP3′s numbers and he doesn’t have to be. If he had to do what paul does which is hold the ball for the whole shot clock and then pass to get an assist or shoot. Deron would do just as well if not better. Deron is way more powerful going to the hoop.

  • http://nicekicks.com MeloMan13

    stats don’t prove whos better. look at jose calderon, last i checked his assist and turnover numbers where near identical to these two when in actuality, jose isn’t even a top 20 pg in the League. stats are deceiving and D will and Cp3 are very different but i gotta say D will is doin it right now

  • Horsey

    mark jackson was tainted by playing in utah and having to look like a loyal good guy. he knows the truth, but he also knows he might be the most loved analyst in the state. he still knows the truth, but ratings are ratings.

  • littleshotlarry

    @Horsey fair enough. That’s a good point. He was great in the Olympics too when he was on the floor. Still I don’t think that it’s exactly the same as being on a team for a whole season, but I agree with your point, in that who really knows what would happen? That’s what makes this debate tough.

  • Horsey

    chris makes sean marks not terrible.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Utah had a lot of injuries this year.

  • a_whiteman

    I stopped this debate awhile ago and just said its a draw. But in no way shape or form should tony parker be put ahead of either of these guys, he can thank duncan for his 3 rings, his finals mvp, his contract. Basically the only thing tim didn’t give parker was his fine as wine wife.

  • Illryion

    Man does this debate get old, or what?!

    Just a few responses -

    Z – Your right, stats don’t lie, but they don’t always tell the whole story do they? You can’t say, look at the stats, CP is higher in all, and then fall back on the “Utah has a stronger team” argument. AT least acknowledge that the fact that there is a better supporting case is going to affect the statistics, and therefore, those stats are not the be all end all argument.

    Anton – Your right, CP could leave the game, come back and get 12 assists. That’s because he’s not just part of the team, he IS the team. Hard to see that winning championships.

    Horsey – The fact that Utah is only 1/2 a game ahead of NO, DESPITE the fact that they have lost something like 130 injury days so far this season is incredible. Tell me that with the amount of time missed by D-Will, Booze and AK this year they have any business being where they are?

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    Z, you asked what Deron Williams can do better than Chris Paul? He’s a better shooter. he’s a better on-ball defender. He’s more versatile because of his height and weight. He knows the point guard game like none other. He owns the nastiest crossover in the L, bar none.

  • Horsey

    tim gave him that along with the other things. tony parker certainly didn’t get that with his personailty or eyebrows.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Ryan Jones

    Talor Battle > Deron Williams

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    Doc Funk, I bet 12 Jazz fans have found that poll so far…

  • underdog

    I don’t want to make a judgment here, so all I say I enjoy watching Deron’s game more.

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    MeloMan is on point. Jose Calderon’s stats are All-Star material, certainly more worthy than Jameer Nelson or Mo Williams. But no one’s saying he’s as good as Steve Nash.

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    I have to disagree Ryne on what basis is he a better shooter? He’s not a better shooter percentage wise and even if he is its not like chris paul is jason kidd or rajon rondo out there.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Because Rosen said so, you have already lost the war. Who the hell uses or goes to Foxsports.com anyway?? Also Ryne, you are a bit delusional with your boy. He knows the PG like none other?? Really?? Best crossover bar none?? Really??? Objectivity, young Ryno. Are you on Deron’s commission or something? Another thing I would like to add: the timing of asking this question while the Jazz are on an 11 game win streak does help Deron a bit, no? Incindentally, Paul and the Hornets have also won 7 straight.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    *He knows the PG GAME like no other….

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    Chris *has* improved his shot. But Deron’s still a more deadly threat from the land of plenty and the mid-range. I’m not sure exactly how it’s calculated, but Deron’s has a higher eFG%.

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    TChandler is the reason for the Hornets’ seven-game streak, TAD. How’s that for objectivity? ;-)

  • Young Chris MP3

    The difference is: One gets mentioned in the list of best Point-Guards. The other? He is often mentioned in the list of best players.

  • http://idunkonthem.blogspot.com/ albie1kenobi

    both garbage. Tyronn Jamar Lue is the best.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Now I know that Ryne is delusional. Hey Ryno, Boozer and Memo are the reasons for the Jazz win streak.

  • Jumpman3224

    I wonder who the fans would say has better smelling pits. Right Guard votes Chris Paul.

  • Andrew

    I vote Deron Williams. Because he doesn’t punch guys in the balls.

  • Tvc

    I love to watch d-will and his crossover…so many players have broken their ankles because of it. I agree that the stats are deceiving, because deron doesn’t have to do as much as cp. cp has to do everything, which include scoring, and assisting. When d will gets going…there’s no stopping him. It’s times like those where he plays like cp taking total control of the game. But deron doesn’t do that the whole game. If deron did, his stats would be as good or better than the great CP3..stats mean nothing in comparison.

  • juliusj14

    Saying CP3 is better than Deron Williams because he has slightly better stats is ridiculous. Stats dont ultimately tell the full story in terms of basketball. Chris Paul has to shoulder most of the load in New Orleans so of course his stats will be better. If you factor in the fact that Deron has been hurt for a good portion of the season then their stast may even be even if Deron was healthy. Deron has to defer a lot to his teammates because sloan’s system and because he has an overall more talented team. Its just like the fact that Lebron has better scoring numbers than Kobe because has defer to his teammates due to the fact that he has a more talented team. Deron Williams can score on the same level as Chris as evividenced by his streak of consecutive 30+ point games before the All-Star break but he has to sacrifice his points for the good of the team especially with Boozer back. Utah is a better team when Deron doesnt score sort of like how the Suns are better when Nash doesnt score as much. Its too premature in their careers to determine who is better because it will probably be determined by who has more rings by the end of their career. Right now CP3 and Deron are pretty much even and just depends on your personal preference and anybody who thinks Tony Parker is in this discussion knows nothing about basketball.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    1- Better shooter. How so? You could say that his form is better… but CP3 holds the edge in fg%, 3fg% and ft%.
    2- On ball defense. Not sure, I’d have to look at Deron’s D more. CP3 never gets abused though. Maybe you’re right, I’ll take your word.
    3- Versatility because of his size. Do you mean that Deron can play the 2? He’s been quoted as saying that he hates playing on the wing and sees himself as a pure point.
    4- Knowing the pg position like no other. You are absolutely incorrect. Under what circumstances does Deron know the pg position better than CP3 or Nash?
    5- Nastiest cross in the L. Well, that’s an opinion. Ivey, Deron, CP3, Jamal Crawford… take your pick.
    So basically Deron could be a better on-ball defender than Chris. Fair enough.

  • Jackie Moon

    I only hope that the Jazz meet the Hornets in the playoffs.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Myth 1 : Deron is shackled by Jerry Sloan and Utah’s system. Myth 2 : Deron is a better shooter. He has better, more text-book form. Myth 3: Deron is a better slasher because of his size. He goes in the paint less often and has a worse fg% down low.
    Deron has never been in a serious MVP discussion. Not even close. Deron was behind Paul in the Redeem Team. Deron has yet to make an all-star game.

  • http://www.esquire.com/features/chimpanzee-attack-0409 toney blare

    um, one has a HOF coach, the other has…no coach.

    also, i don’t know if this was made a law or not, but, to me, if you said Bron would never be nothin, you don’t get to vote anymore. period.

    finally, anyone who pays attention to team blogs knows that Utah fans are e-rabid and more likely to vote in a lesser site poll like Fox’s.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Wake me up when Deron is in the MVP discussion. Thanks.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Quite frankly, I hate to bash Deron like that because he’s truly a joy to watch on the basketball court. Deron is top 5 pg in the L. CP3 is top 5 player in the L. Ryne, in all honesty, is there even the slightest chance that CP3 will NOT be 1st team all NBA?

  • matt

    paul is stockton 2009 but forced to shoot more. he is amazing and deserves mvp consideration–just like stock should’ve. d-will, however, is a better all-around basketball player. he’s like a more talented version of a baron davis without bd’s poor work ethic and injury issues.

    he can play the 1 or 2 interchangeably and at the highest level (as he did on the olympics and at illinois), his ball-handling and passing are amazing, offensively he has a bigger arsenal than paul (aka he has range, his crossover is insane, and his dunks are crazy), he is a better defender than paul, nash or parker (paul has more steals because he takes more risks and has chandler to back him up, just like stock had eaton and tag) but as a true defender forget about it.

    only reason d-will wasn’t an all-star is because he was injured at the start of the year.

    d-will is my choice of course, but paul is excellent. i hope they both get the mvp someday because they show how important point guards are.

    someday, because

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    I’m sorry but all I can say is that none of the Deron supporters have any evidence of him being better than Paul. If anything Paul’s size helps my case because he’s producing better numbers especially rebounds despite being shorter.

  • Illryion

    It’s easy to be one of the best rebounders on your team, when the rest of your team SUCKS!

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    Yeah its easy to rebound ask Jamal Crawford who is 6’7 and averages one per game. Its easy to average 11 assists per game when your starters include rashaul butler. Its easy to score 21 ppg when you’re the smallest guy on the court and do most of your damage in the paint.

  • juliusj14

    @ Z FG% and 3P% doesnt make CP3 a better shooter than Deron. First of all if wanna look %s then your nopt factoring that Deron played hurt early in the season and his number were down drastically. %s are decieving. As good as Kevin Durant is would you take hsi shot over Kobe’s shot right now because he has a better Fg%? Last year Deron’s shot over 50% from the field and and almost 40% from the 3. Deron has better career pecentages from the field and from 3.

  • matt

    guards get more rebounds when there teams shoots more threes–they are long rebounds. the jazz’s offensive system is built around getting lay-ups and the players are instructed no threes unless the bigs are around the basket.

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    Z, Chris Paul will be first-team without a doubt… unless he gets hurt or something. If you play 14 more games than the next best point guard, that will happen. When I talk about versatility, I’m talking about offense and defense. On offense, for instance, if he’s being guarded by a smaller guard (Paul), then he can use his size to his advantage. He can also guard larger point guards (Kidd, Billups) at more effectively. Deron has a knowledge of the game that surpasses most players (not just point guards). I’ve seen the man in practice since he was 20… he basically was directing the team in drills.

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    For the record I would take Kevin Durant’s shot over just about any player in the league including Kobe.

  • http://twentythreenine.blogspot.com Russ Bengtson

    Fox covers basketball?

  • Illryion

    Just to be clear, I am a Jazz fan, but man I sure get sick of this “D will is a great point guard, CP is great PLAYER”. Uh, wtf does that even mean? Deron Williams is as integral to his teams success as CP is to the Hornets. Anyone who disagrees with that clearly hasn’t watched the Jazz play with a 2nd tier point guard. Plus, let’s knock off a assist or two per game from CP’s average since at least that many are CP to Chandler Alley-Oops. I could throw the ball into Chandler’s hands as he runs through a crowd at least 1/2 of those times.

    I’m not saying CP isn’t a fantastic player. He is, but I think that lots of people are enamored by the showiness of his game, not by the reality of it. Sloan’s system doesn’t reward players for being a highlight reel, it rewards players for good, high quality play that works within the system.

    And let’s just remember these are both YOUNG players. Let’s see if we are having this same discussion in 5 years. I’m betting we’re not.

  • http://www.myspace.com/hemantsbeats what

    I thought Deron would be better when they were drafted, and I think Deron is on pace to be a Hall of Fame PG… but I’d rank CP3 ahead of him right now. Can’t go wrong with either one though.

  • juliusj14

    Yuo just dont watch basket if you think Chris shoots beeter than Deron. Deron has a pretty pure shot. I’ve never seen Chris Paul come down and make consecutive threes he doesnt have the type of shot to just come down and consistently make shots. Deron has more consistent shot. It has nothing to do with numbers and even if it did Deron has better career numbers and he would have better numbers this year if he weren’t hurt and struggling with his shot at the start of the season. Sadly Deron’s numbers are gonna go down with Boozer back and then everyone is gonna Chris Paul is better because of his numbers alone.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    So Chris Paul doesn’t have a good knowledge of the game? You don’t think that he see’s the floor better than most players outside of Bron and maybe Nash? Deron pick-and-rolls all game long. I know that is Sloan’s offense. If I was to ask one of the two players to make somethign out of a busted play, i’m quite sure Chris could do it much better.

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    I can’t see how Deron’s assist numbers could be higher in a different systen like everyone keeps saying since Stockton averaged almost 15 per game in the same system.

  • http://docfunk.blogspot.com Doc Funk

    Antonio Daniels > Brevin Knight

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Illryion: Ok, so in your logic, we can also knock off a few assists from Deron’s average for the numerous pick-and-rolls he runs with Boozer and Memo, right? I mean, I could roll off the pick and feed either of those players as easy as you claim you could throw Chandler an alley-oop. In other words, your comment doesn’t have much merit. Sorry.

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    Yeah Deron Williams is the purest 31 percent three point shooter in league history. And Chris paul doesn’t take consecutive threes in games because he can get to the basket any time he wants to and he doesn’t settle for the outside jumper.

  • seppo

    Chris Paul is the most overrated player in the league. He´s just the fourth best pg in the league, behind Tony Parker, Deron Williams, and Chauncey Billups. Paul can´t shoot, he´s not as quick as Tony and not as big as Deron. His assist numbers are inflated because he has the ball in his hands the whole game and the stat keepers are very generous with him. And the Hornest aren´t going anywhere.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Again, Ryne, are you confident in saying that Deron has a knowledge of the game that surpasses Chris’? That’s a effing bold statement to make.
    Illryion, it means that Chris Paul is a top 5 player in the league whilst Deron is not. That’s what it means.
    Someone said that Paul rebounds better because his team sucks at rebounding. There’s one rebound per game difference b/n the two teams.

  • juliusj14

    Stocton averaged 15 assists but Stockton isnt Chris Paul or Deron. He is the all-time leader an assists by a long-shot. Their not saying that Deron cant average fifteen assists in sloan’s system their just saying that its easier for Chris Paul to average more assist because he has the ball in his hands more and the Hornets run more than the Jazz. Its stupid to argue over two guys who differ by a couple points and by not even one assist and say that one is beeter than the other. Their are too many variables with them being being on different teams and having different players. Different styles of play affect how many assists a person gets. Just look at how inflated Steve Nash’s assist number were in D’Antoni’s system.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    The 3:12 comment proves that idiots do use computers. Good day all.

  • juliusj14

    @ Bryan ?Deron shot 40% last year from 3 and shoots better thasn Paul for his career. How many times must I repeat this? Deron’s shoots 31% because he struggled with his shot early in the season becasue he got hurt in pre-season and he came back way too early because his team needed hi m to play. Everyone knows Deron wasn’t himself at the beginning of the season. So why would you look at his numbers without knowing that they are decieving. He probably shot 0-3 or 0-4 from beyond the arc in multiple games before he felt comfortable with his shot.

  • Illryion

    Well – Considering that Malone is most likely the best pick and roll forward to ever play the game, and was by far the primary offensive weapon on Stock’s team, a high number of his assists went through Malone. D-Will spreads his assists all over the floor. Yes Booze, and to a lesser extent Millsap do a similar thing, but clearly not to the extent Malone did.

    I’m not saying I agree that d-will numbers could or would be higher, I’m just saying why I think they aren’t the same as Stock’s.

  • Tvc

    what is so annoying about all this is that cp is averaging just better than deron, and yet cp is “by far the best point guard”. Sloan isn’t into publicity, but deron deserves credit for how goodbye is. How many commercials have you seen deron in?

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Z
    Deron is a better shooter. The percentages don’t tell the entire story. If you watch both their games, Deron clearly has a better jumper. Chris Paul is a better penetrator, although Deron might have the nasty crossover in the league, as Ryne has says.
    I ain’t arguing though, just wanted to say that.

  • Rob

    “Torrance ” is 100% right The Jazz are having a better year,so D-Will is geting more of the bandwagon riders. (CP3)1 (D-Will)1a

  • juliusj14

    @TADOne its way easier for Paul to get an assist from throwing an alley-oop to Chandler becaue that is a higher percentage shot that Chandler should make 90% of the time(and he does)! A pick-roll with Boozer can ultimately lead to several different only one of which includes Williams getting an assist. Boozer not gonna always be wide open after a pick-and-roll and plus they are in a half-court set meaning there are other defenders trying to stop Boozer from scoring which means he may have to dribble to the basket to score or he may pass the ball to Okur or Korver for a three which means Boozer gets the assist. In order for Williams to get an assist to Boozer his pass has to lead to a direct score(thats the definition of an assist). Paul throwing an uncontested Alley to Chandler is an always gonna be an assist(unless of course Jason Maxiell is there).

  • http://www.kicksonfire.com Anton

    CP3 doesn’t alley oop to Chandler 96 times a game, like you’re implying. He gets 2-3 “easy” assists on a good game.

  • anonymous

    I don’t trust that much polls on general sports sites cuz not everyone voting is a basketball fan and many people voting don’t know much about basketball.

  • Illryion

    Uhm, Anton. Read the original post. I said 1-2 times a game.

  • juliusj14

    Well at least Allen P understands that you have to watch basketball and not just look at the numbers to know if a player is better at something. Somebody looking at numbers might think Lebron or Wade have a more complete offensive game than Kobe but if you actually watch the players play then you will know. Dirk is shooting like 37% this year and he shot 35% last year from 3 we all know how deadly Dirk can be from beyond the arc.

  • juliusj14

    @ Anton Im not saying that CP3 gets 10 assist from Chandler alone. Those 2-3 assists on a good are the difference between Deron and Chris. I myslef find it stupid to argue over tiny difference in assist between Chris and Deron but I was just explaining to TadOne that CP3′s that the amount of assist that CP3 gets from Chandler cant be equivalently compared to the amount Deron gets from Boozer in Pick-and-Roll thats all I was saying.

  • Josh D

    CP3 has had a better career thus far, the guy who’ll have the best career will still be debated for years afterwards, but as much as i like Deron, i think CP3 will just edge it

  • Candyman

    I’ve heard enough from the stat geeks already… Stats only tell part of the story. Utah has better players surrounding DWill, so obviously his stats will by slightly lower, but stats aren’t everything. When I look at how these two point gaurds lead and control the tempo of the game I’d have to give the slight advantage to DWill.

    Career success for these two players is impossible to predeict because it’s all about the players surrounding them. Every great player needs a Scottie Pippen, Dwayne Wade being a prime example.

  • http://www.kicksonfire.com Anton

    That’s it, I’m taking this to a whole new level.
    LeBron and CP3 > DWill and Kobe

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    TAD, were you saying that Deron can only operate within set plays? Do you know how often those plays go exactly according to plan?

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    I love it, Anton. I’d take Kobe and Deron in a heartbeat. Half a heartbeat, actually.

  • http://www.blogs.myspace.com/originadro Witness

    D-Will is gettin the love now because of the winning streak but come playoff time we will se who gets the last laugh.

    CP3 > D-Will.

  • Tvc

    So cp gets 2-3 assists easy, while deron maybe gets one alley a game, that’s 1-2 more assists than deron..but how many assists per game is cp getting? Like .5 maybe? Without the easy alleyoops, cp wouldn’t be leading in assists

  • juliusj14

    @ Anton. Since Kobe is my favorite player and Deron is my favorite point guard, I would love to argue with you over the Lebron and CP3 > DWill and Kobe but i just dont have the time for that.

  • http://www.kicksonfire.com Anton

    Trick question, Kobe would never pass the ball to Williams, setting up a 2-on-1.

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    toney, I’m not quite sure how last season’s COTY qualifies as “no coach” in New Orleans.

  • juliusj14

    The Jazz will definately go further than the Hornets this year in the playoffs. The Jazz are healthy and arguably better than they were last year. The Hornets on the other hand are considered by some to be a dissapointment this year. Deron has had more playoff success than Chris. The Hornets have yet to make it to the Western conference finals and the Jazz did in 2006-2007. The Jazz also lost to the Western conference team that went to the finals last year while Hornets lost to the Spurs, the team that the Lakers beat in the Western Conference Finals.

  • http://www.blogs.myspace.com/originadro Witness

    you still have to give credits to assists even when theyre alley-oops. alleys are harder plays to make then they seem. dont cancel out his relationship with tyson chandler because the man is supposed to be a floor general.

  • Chris

    I think it’s possible to argue that although CP3 may be the better player, Dwill will have the better career because he appears to be more durable. Secondly, while you can’t knock the Jazz’s success, I think CP3 does more for his team than Dwill does. The Jazz’s system contributes mightly to that teams success, whereas NOH’s system is to have guys stand around and let CP3 create for them. If I had to chose one of these guys for a playoff series, it would be CP3.

  • http://www.blogs.myspace.com/originadro Witness

    Chris Paul and David West will lead the way again in the post season. Theyre much better with posey and rusual butler.

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    Allenp, I’d even take it step further and say that Deron is the better penetrator. Chris and slash and make a nice floater, but he can’t attack the cup like DWill. It’s not even close as far as who goes harder to the rim.

  • juliusj14

    LOL @ Anton. but then Chris would pass the ball to Lebron and he would either take a long 3 and miss or Crab-dribble and turn the ball over on every possesion causing them to turnover the ball on every possession.

  • http://www.blogs.myspace.com/originadro Witness

    Deron Williams has the best bounce pass. Its undeniable but Paul’s court vision and ability to create at any time is unbelievable.

  • http://www.blogs.myspace.com/originadro Witness

    CP3 LeBron and Bosh > Kobe D-will and Dwight

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Tvc, that’s just stupid. The alley oops are easy BECAUSE of CP3, how can you take that away from him? I don’t remember Tyson catching 2-3 lobs a game in the Chi. I hate it when people try to factor all these things that are not intrisic to a player’s game when they do comparisons. Players have no control over their system, their coach and their teammates. And when it gets down to it, it’s quite marginal. Those things affect the outcome of the game but the players’ stats? Not so much. Deron would be ballin in NO and CP3 would be ballin in Utah, without a doubt. And again, team success is not what’s being debated here.

  • http://www.blogs.myspace.com/originadro Witness

    we should have a poll.

  • juliusj14

    Kobe D-Will Dwight > CP3 T-Ma.. I mean Lebron Dwight

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Anyways, my mind has not changed and I still think that CP3 is the better player. The arguments have been said and it’s getting a little circular. One day, you’ll see the light, Ryne. :)

  • http://www.blogs.myspace.com/originadro Witness

    it doesnt really matter because in 2 years D-Rose will be the man…

  • g

    derons owned cp everytime going head to head all the way back to illinois wake

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    TAD
    Deron actually has better one-on-one moves that Chris, particulary in the halfcour without a pick. Chris is crazy good with a pick, but just on an iso, Deron is better.
    So Deron would have an easier time with a busted play.

  • http://www.kicksonfire.com Anton

    @ juliusj14: sorry, I forgot to mention that I shoot Kobe in the leg before the game.

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    I just want to know how its possible to prove someone has a better knowledge of the game than someone else. That’s like saying Deron Williams is better because he keeps better secrets. Its unprovable which makes it irrelavant to the conversation. Anyone can say something completely unprovable to win any arguement but that doesn’t make you correct.

  • http://www.kicksonfire.com Anton

    Starbury, Rodman, and Shaqovic > DWill, Kobe, white girl

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Allenp
    Before I go, I know you’re a Deron fan. Where do you stand on this debate? You’ve been dropping points here and there in this thread but you didn’t take a stance.

  • http://www.blogs.myspace.com/originadro Witness

    @ Bryan: Jerry Sloan > Byron Scott

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Ryne
    I’ve watched Paul in the lane, and he’s a master. He’s similar to Nash in the way he probes and can pass or shoot in a heartbeat. However, he’s even better than Nash at finding contact and getting to the line.
    Now, I think Deron is the better pure finisher because of his size, but I think Paul is better at working the lane and making something happen.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Z
    Right now, Chris Paul is better.
    Last year, I thought Deron was better.
    They flip flop. Kinda like the Holy Trinity of the NBA right now: Kobe, Lebron and Wade.
    So, by the end of the season, Deron might be on top again, but right now I’d have to ride with Paul.
    Sure, he has to do more for his team, but that means that other teams are keying on him more, which makes it even more impressive that he’s putting up those numbers.
    Plus, Deron has been injured, and that counts against him this year.

  • http://www.blogs.myspace.com/originadro Witness

    d-will used to shoot on an 11 foot rim near snakes and dead bodies.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    It’s amazing to me that cats can be so certain they are right about this argument, when the difference between the two players is so tiny.
    It’s ain’t like we’re comparing Baron Davis to Allen Iverson.
    Lol.

  • Young Chris MP3

    Allenp thinking Baron Davis and Allen Iverson are on a similar level proves his ineptitude.

  • Illryion

    @Allenp – Agreed. I will say this. I think that are both astonishingly good, especially for their age, and I hope a basketball fan they both only get better. That said, as a Jazz fan, I will say this – I get really sick of hearing how CP is a god among men, and D-Will is a lowly human. There’s a lot of rhetoric going around – see Z’s comment about “top 5 pg vs. top 5 players”. Clearly, CP has the advantage of being a little bit showier of a player, and playing in a better market to be marketed in.

    One last D-Will promo spot – I know it’s kind of hokey, but did you see how much quicker D-Will was in the skills challenge last year than everyone else?!!!

  • Illryion

    @Young Chris – I believe it’s called uh.. sarcasm. Check your dictionary.

  • juliusj14

    @ Z Tyson didnt get 2-3 lobs a game in chicago because:
    1)Chicago didnt run as much as NO.
    2)He hadnt found his niche in the league yet.
    3)He didnt have Chris Paul on his team.

    we are not taking assists from Paul because he throws alleys to Chandler we’re just saying that thats an easier play to make than a pick-and-roll beween Deron and Boozer.

    and the system that you play is very important to your numbers. Look at Steve Nash with D’Antoni and look at him without D’Antoni. Look at Shawn Marion without D’Antoni. Look at Chris Duhon now he averages almost 8 assist a game with D’Antoni thats good enough for 8th in the league. Look at how David Lee and Nate Robinson have flourished in D’Antoni’s system. Look at the decrease in Amare’s points without D’Antoni. Teams that run more give point guards more opportunities to get assists. That’s not taking anything away from Chris Paul he’s still arguably the best point guard in the game but its unfair to just look at the fact that he averages slightly more assist than Deron and say that he is better because of that. Thats the point that we are making. Deron and Chris are so great that they would still be averaging over 10 assist a game on any team but factors such as their teams, systems, and injuries can be the difference in their numbers. Thats why its pointless to use small stat differences to justify one being better than the other. Thats the point that I was trying to make. They are equally great but Deron Williams is often the one that gets overlooked because on the surface it appears that Paul is better.

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    Witness, I’ve been trying to set-up a SLAM poll all day… hasn’t happen. Too bad the time has sort of passed anyway. Don’t worry, the debate will heat up again in, say… three days.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Young Chris
    I guess you weren’t around for the SLAM 50 debacle.
    Why don’t you comb through the archives, check it out, and then you’ll get the joke.
    Cool?

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    Bryan, how is it so hard to say a player has a better knowledge of the game? It’s that sort of cerebral element that a lot of today’s players don’t have. They focus nearly entirely on the physical aspects–the jumping, the running, the training, the repetition. How about understanding basketball and its infinite intricacies and situations? That’s probably the most important aspect a player can master, and it always has been. How has that been so underrated that people completely forget it, and instead quarrel over an assist and a couple points per game?

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    julius, you could have saved that whole argument if you had seen that i recognized mike d’s system as the only one in the league that truly affects players’ stats. sloan’s system doesn’t prevent players from getting theirs. at all. and byron scott doesn’t run this crazy ssytem that inflates numbers either. / young chris, you kinda sound like a douche when you talk out of your ass w/o getting the context in which the comment was said.

  • juliusj14

    @ Bryan you can tell someone’s knowledge of the game by looking at them play and obeserving the decisions that they make on the court its called their Basketball I.Q. . Im not gonna say that either of them have a higher basketball I.Q. but im just saying it is possible to tell if someone has a greater knowledge of the game by watching them play. I will say that other than J Kidd and Nash. CP3 and Deron are head and shoulders above everyone else in the leagues in regards to basketball IQ.

  • http://slamonline.com Lang Whitaker

    I’m staying out of all of this except for a few things:
    1) I mean, Charley Rosen said it! Charley Rosen! What more proof do you need that it’s wrong? I’m disappointed in you, Ryne, for using a Charley Rosen column to attempt to back up your ongoing argument that Deron Williams is better than Chris Paul. Next thing I know you’ll be linking to a Sam Smith story about some wild trade and saying it’s about to happen.
    2) If I was building a team and I wanted a point guard who was really good at setting off-the-ball screens, I’d want Deron Williams. If I wanted a better shooter, passer, dribbler, defender, leader or guy to market my team with, I’d take Chris Paul.
    3) BTW, didn’t you and I settle the CP3/D-Will debate a few months ago? Let it go, man. Deron Williams is very good, and he’s going to be the second-best point guard in the NBA for a long time to come. And that’s not the worst thing in the world.

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    Witness, Derrick Rose’s game is entirely different, but he too should be in the “best career” conversation (although it’s far too early to make predictions on his trajectory). He himself says he’d like to be as good as Steve Francis in his heyday.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Ryne, how can you say that Deron has better basketball knowledge than Paul. Again, not that Deron’s hoops knowledge is above-average… that it’s greater than Paul’s. How can that argument be made? Seriously.

  • http://slamonline.com Lang Whitaker

    All that said, I hope Mike Bibby dominates Chris Paul tonight.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    I can’t believe Lang said Paul was a better finisher and shooter than Dwil.
    I can get folks saying Paul is better. I just said it. But, he ain’t better at everything. He’s better at some stuff, like passing, and DWill is better at other stuff, anything involving scoring.
    Just because Paul puts up more points doesn’t make him a better scorer.
    Next y’all are going to be arguing that Lebron is a better scorer than Kobe.
    Oh, and Kobe is easily the most intelligent basketball player in the league with the highest basketball IQ as well.
    Sure he does dumb stuff, but that’s not because he doesn’t know the correct play, he’s just stubborn.

  • nbk

    Lets not forget Williams is playing in a system that has worked consistently for 20 years and has a off court tutor that ran that offense for 14 of those years. Chris Paul is putting up better numbers on a less talented team, in a less proven offense, with a less experienced coach.

  • http://www.esquire.com/features/chimpanzee-attack-0409 toney blare

    Ryne–Chris won that award. Watch a Hornets game.

  • juliusj14

    @ Z The argument wasnt that Byron Scott has aninflated system; it was that point guards on running teams get more assist. I just used that example to show that CP3 has a slight advantage. I had to use an extreme example like D’Antoni’s system to prove the much simpler point that I was trying to make. Extreme examples open people’s eyes to see the big picture. That is the whole purpose of literary devices like satire and sarcasm. In no way am I saying that Byron scott is equivalent D’Antoni but Im saying that CP3′s assists might show a slight decline in another system and Deron’s might increase in another system. But your missing out on the main point that im making and that is that arguing over the slight differences in their stats is stupid because those differences are caused by the factors like their team’s system.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    I’ll assume that Ryne is ducking my question about basketball knowledge since I asked it twice already. How can you say that Deron’s basketball IQ is higher than Paul’s???
    Allenp, isn’t it kinda hard to compare basketball IQ amongst players that rarely make bad decisions and know all the plays? I mean, once you get to a certain level, I feel a lot of cats would be tied at perfect. For instance, I’ve read somewhere that Sheed knows all the plays on O and D for the 5 positions and routinely tells people where to be on the floor. To me that’s perfect basketball IQ, I don’t see how that could be improved.

  • http://livescience.com nbk

    Exactly why we should be focusing on the fact that Paul has been doing MORE with LESS his whole career. The majority of his assists don’t come from transition so you can forget that.

  • Gift2Basketball

    CP3 is better…

  • juliusj14

    @ Z You are the right that it is too close to tell who has better B-ball IQ between Deron and Chris that’s why I didn’t compare the two. but if you understand that then you should also understand that is too close to tell if CP3 is better than Deron as a player. Like I said for point guards CP3 Dwill Nash and J Kidd are ahead of everyone else in B-Ball IQ and then it is hard to tell who has more B-Ball IQ between those four.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Z
    Good point.
    I guess, when I watch Kobe, I feel like there are very few elements of basketball that Kobe is not extremely knowledgable about.
    Offensensively and defensively, I get the sense that he’s a basketball encyclopedia. If he doesn’t know how to do it, then nobody in the league knows how to do it.

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    I get the point you’re trying to make with it ryne but the difference between paul and deron is impossible to decipher. We’re not talking Tyrus Thomas vs. Tim Duncan here. Those are the types of players where that argument would be effective I’m not knocking you much respect and all but that point to me is unprovable between these two particular players.

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    Fresh off the presses: Deron Williams Named NBA’s Western Conference Player of the Week.

  • juliusj14

    @ Allen P.
    Kobe is arguably the most intellignet basketball player to ever play the game.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    we’re kinda saying the same thing allenp. kobe has the most complete toolbox in the league. i don’t know if there is something that he can not do at an elite level at this point in his career. but i do feel that a lot of elite players know exactly what to do at all times on the court. they’re just not as skilled as kobe.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    ok ryne, i’ll let you off the hook. just admit that your comment on basketball iq had no basis whatsoever and we’re cool. lol.

  • http://livescience.com nbk

    Julius I don’t know if your new to the NBA but I think there is this guy named Bill Russel that would beg the differ

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    toney, touché!

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    time to get ghost. ryne, you should do that every monday. two players who play the same position and commenters duke it out all day. put a poll and everything.

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    Z, all I’m saying is that if you had a basketball Xs and Os conversation with Deron, you’d come out thinking, “This is a guy who could coach any team in the League *right now*.” I assume–and see, that could be a major problem–that these types of extremely talented and knowledgeable hoops heads don’t come around often. As talented as Deron is, I think he’s even more gifted in his mental game.

  • juliusj14

    @ Bryan it is impossible to clearly determine who is better between CP3 and DWill but i hate when people say CP3 is hands down better. There is no way to clearly say one of them is hands down better than the other and it is too early in their careers to clearly determine. They will probably have a Magic and Bird type rivalry for the rest of their careers wtih both of them pushing themselves to outdo eachother. I think its great that they have each other because they make each other better.

  • http://livescience.com nbk

    What makes you think you wouldn’t say the same thing about Chris Paul Ryne?

  • juliusj14

    @ NBK
    if you think Bill Russell was a more intelligent basketball player than Kobe then you must be new to the NBA. You could have at least said MJ or something and that also why I said “arguably” because I knew someone would “argue” my statement. Its impossible for Bill Russell to have had a greater basketball I.Q. than Kobe.

  • nbk

    google mind games of bill russell julius. Then remember basketball is more about winning then x’s and o’s. Then remember that Bill has more rings than fingers. And he got one as a player/coach.

  • nbk

    Impossible? If it was Impossible for Bill Russell to have a higher basketball IQ then Kobe wouldn’t Kobe have won a title without Shaq? Wouldn’t Kobe know that shots are not as important as winning? If Kobes basketball IQ were the highest of all time would he have gone through a stretch last week of 67 shot attempts with only 4 assists? I doubt it.

  • nbk

    There is actually NO reason Kobe Bryant should even be argued to have the greatest basketball IQ of all time. Maybe the best scoring IQ if that exists but all around Basketball IQ give me a break you have no reason to say that.

  • Canuck

    The way I see it is Paul is the better player, D-Will is better in a head-to-head match up with Paul because of his size and physical talents. Also:
    @ Allen P.
    Kobe is arguably the most intellignet basketball player to ever play the game

    WOW I think I just **** myself.

  • juliusj14

    Just because he played mind games doesn’t mean he had a greater basketball I.Q.. Basketball I.Q. doesnt just consist of mind games even thought they are important. Russel’s ineptitude on offense prevents him from having the highest basketball IQ. How could he have highest basketball IQ when he wasnt the strongest offensive player. It Russell’s B-ball IQ was the greatest then it would have showed more in his offensive game.

  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    NBK, you’re right there’s more to the game than Xs and Os. Deron’s the only player who’s as interesting in practice (for me, as a reporter/bystander) as he is in games. Maybe Paul is the same with his team, but I sincerely doubt he brings that same presence.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    NBK
    Like I said, just because Kobe does stupid stuff sometimes, doesn’t mean he has a low IQ. I truly believe he is just stubborn and pig headed. It’s not about him having the knowledge, it’s about him putting it to use all the time.
    Now, I don’t know about Kobe’s place in history since I didn’t watch the old cats who dominated. But, I think you are wrong to limit Kobe’s knowledge to just “scoring.” It’s obvious if you watch him play that he knows how to do everything on the floor. And do it just as well or better than almost all other players.

  • nbk

    No because he did not need it too. He did what his team needed to win. Your IQ must be very very high in order to understand that you can sacrafice a big portion of your own personal game to make sure your team is successful. Russell knew that, Kobe doesn’t. If Kobe were so intelligent on the basketball court we would not be debating if whether or not he was the best player wiht a 24 year old. He should be far and away to intelligent and successful for us to have that conversation. Since according to you intelligence = offensive production.

  • nbk

    Allen don’t get it twisted Kobe is probably top 5 smartest dudes in the league right now. But Julius said highest basketball iq ever. Come on Jordan, Bird, and Magic all were more successful and since there is no way to really judge a players IQ i would not put Kobe above players who never made the mistakes on a basketball court Kobe makes. And basketball IQ should also involve how well you lead your team, not divide it.

  • nbk

    And Kobe has led the Lakers home every year since their Leader left (shaq)

  • juliusj14

    @ NBK you must not observe how Kobe effortlessly picks apart players with his strategy on the court thats what seperates him from everyone else in the league. kobe taking a lot of shots doesnt mean that he doesnt have a high B-Ball IQ. Like Allen P said he is stubborn and does certain things because of that but that doesnt mean that he isnt an intelligent individual on the court.

  • juliusj14

    @ NBK I said arguably. When you mention players like Bird, Magic , and MJ then I would say that they probably would have a greater IQ than Kobe but not Russell.

  • nbk

    Julius you just said he effortlessly picks apart players with his strategy…..hmmm if he did that so effortlessly can you explain what happened in the finals last year? Or how about what happened when his team missed the playoffs after shaq left? Or can you explain to me why Kobe (the genius) did not put up shots in the second half of game 7 against phoenix a few years ago? Or how about Kobe asking to be traded and causing mass confusion and controversly in lakerland? The smartest player of all time wins championships. You can call him the smartest player when looking to score ever i won’t have a problem with that. But he has caused more problems then championships and the smartest basketball players traditionally do the opposite. You can’t disprove history and every player I would name as “smarter” on a basketball court has as many or more rings then Kobe without ever being second fiddle.

  • nbk

    And Julius your whole Stubborn thing as an excuse for Kobe’s mistakes. I would argue that Kobe being stubborn makes his basketball iq that much lower, because if it hurts your team and you still do it your certainly not being intelligent. Don’t bend the rules of intelligence to make your case

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Ryne
    You’re operating on assumptions and based on what I’ve heard, they are false assumptions.
    Everybody around the Hornets says Paul is the smartest and the hardest working person on that team. They say he’s on top of everything.
    Finally, there is a difference between having knowledge and using it, and Russell and Kobe are good examples of that.
    I think Russell understood how to play offense. By all accounts, it was his rebounding and outlet passes that jumpstarted the vaunted Celtics fast break. Plus, as a defensive terror, you have to understand offense. You can’t counter it unless you understand it. However, Russell was not a very skilled offensive player, which was probably the result of his focus and his team needs.
    Kobe understands passing. During the Lakers title run, he was the facillitator for that team and a great all-around player. It was only later when he truly became a chucker. So, even though he doesn’t always make smart plays, it’s obvious, at least to me, that his failures are the result of stubborness and pride, not ignorance.
    Like, Lebron is kinda ignorant when it comes to the intricacies of post footwork, not just unskilled.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    NBK
    Intelligence is not the deciding force in acting.
    MANY people with high IQs fail to succeed in life because they do not possess other equally important skills. Kobe is the same way.
    You are operating under a logical fallacy.

  • nbk

    AllenP thats IQ we are talking about basketball IQ. It is not a logical fallacy when your talking about the latter. Basketball IQ can easily be summed up as, “Knowing and Understanding all parts of the game, and using that knowledge to help reach the ultimate goal.”
    Which is winning obviously

  • nbk

    and Allenp what equally important skill would you say kobe lacks? On a basketball court I would say his biggest problem is his own ego and the fact that he is not intelligent enough to put it in check for the better of his team.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    NBK
    Kobe has won as many championships as Larry Bird with less talent.
    Fact.
    And more than Jerry West and Oscar Robertson combined.

  • windowlicker_son

    Deron is the #2 assist man in the L on the #1 assist team in the L. People have near heart attacks when CP makes an around the back dribble in the open court and dishes for an easy layup… Dick riding has been elevated to a new level – with both of them, but Cp3 has to be chaffed by now.

  • juliusj14

    @ NBK
    So Tim Duncan has a greater B-Ball IQ than Kobe too right? He is the closest thing to Russell in this era. Kobe has a higher understanding of the game but he never played on a team full of hall of famers who all had high IQs like Russell. Its easy to focus on rebounding defense and mind games when you dont have to score for your team to win multiple championships that doesnt mean he had a higher IQ. He had to do those things because he didnt have a great offensive game. He was compensating for it. He played in an era where there werent as many dominant players so he could strategize and play mind games like he did back then. The game has evolved to the point where the game is much more advanced than it was back then. Russell’s strategies would not be effective now.

  • nbk

    Fact Larry Bird was the #1 option on all 3 title teams. Fact Kobe was #2 Option on all 3 titles teams. Fact – Larry played in the golden age – Kobe played against the pacers, nets and 76ers.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    Intelligence is different from willpower.
    Kobe understands every aspect of the game. sometimes he doesn’t ahve the willpower to put that knowledge to use. At least, that’s what I think. Like most people, he has problems reigning himself in.

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    NBK
    Rings are rings.
    Either we’re using rings to determine skill, or we’re not.
    And I didn’t know the rules said you had to be the number one option.
    Question, was Magic the number one option for the Lakers?

  • nbk

    Julius I wish there were stats that showed what russell did. Tim Duncan has a great basketball IQ, i could not tell you if it is higher then Kobes or not but I can tell you he does more for his team to win then Kobe does. Lets compare and contrast – Duncan has 4 rings with a HOF coach who coinsidentally has 4 rings. Kobe on the other hand has 3 rings with a coach who OMG has 9. Duncan got 2 rings with 1 other surefire HOF player, David Robinson. Kobe has 3 rings with 1 other surefire HOF player but Kobe’s teammate, Shaq, is top 5 all time at his posistion and was in his prime during those titles. Kobe since shaq left has won nothing, Duncan since Robinson left has won 2 more rings.

  • nbk

    Yes Allen he was, just because he was not the number 1 scoring option he was option number 1, get magic the ball let him decide who scores and where they get the ball. He was basically the ultimate number 1 option.

  • nbk

    I can’t say who is “more intelligent” on a basketball court but I can say I would rather have had Duncan his whole career then Kobe.

  • nbk

    AllenP your arguing that Kobe Bryant is the smartest basketball player of all time but is being held back by willpower….. you realize that?

  • juliusj14

    Russell had an ideal situation in his career. It was easy for him to just focus on strategies and being unselfish on the great teams that he had and the hall of fame coach that he had. Throw Russell on a team with Kwame Brown and Brian Cook and lets see how unselfish he is and how many championships he wins with his strategies. Basketball isnt as simple now as it was back then. Basketball IQ isnt just about strategizes and mind games now it is much more complex. Talent is more evenly dispersed and there more teams and it is much more difficult to dominate and win. Players dont stay on the same teams with the same players forever like they did back then.

  • nbk

    Whatever if you don’t want to accept reality don’t. Basketball was basketball in 1950 its still basketball today. You can discount guys for the way the league has changed but can you really discount a man who has more then 3 times as many rings as Kobe? If you say Kobe Bryant is more intelligent then the greatest winner in the sports history then you might as well say Doc Rivers is the greatest celtics coach of all time. (even though he has as many rings as a coach as Bill Russell.) The fact that Russell won a ring as a player/coach should be evidence enough anyways.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    SLAM should really do an article or list on best BBALL IQ, that would lead to some nice discussions. On that whole topic, no doubt Kobe has the most impressive toolbox, but BBall IQ come on guys, if that was the case he would have stopped hoisting long jumpers and started driving the lane, seeking contact, and getting to the line against Boston last June (+ all his years of chucking away). Discussing BBall IQ, the case is not whether a player knows the right decision, it’s whether he takes the right decision. Kind of same thing about Sheed’s BBall IQ, he might know all the plays and yaddayadda, but a guy who get ejected from so many games, shoots 3′s instead of posting up, when his post game is second to maybe only Duncan’s, really doesn’t get the best marks for BBall IQ on my report card.

  • juliusj14

    @ NBK
    Your defintion of Basketball IQ and our defintion of basketball IQ are completely different. I understand what your saying with Russell but I just dont agree with it based on my own personal definition of basketball IQ. I’ll acknowledge that you do make a strong arguement for Russell but we would probably argue forever based on our different views. There is no way to clearly say one is better than the other and that is why I originally said “arguably”. So I wont argue anymore because it would take 2 long.

  • nbk

    My thing is Julius if basketball IQ were just knowing the game and what to do in every situation I would have got a scholarship to play at a college instead of being forced to earn my way onto a squad. But it is about doing what you know you should consistently and successfully, and doing it for the good of the team no matter what it does to you individually. Kobe is the benchmark of an emmensly intelligent player who is not intelligent enough to correct his own issues.

  • nbk

    If knowing the game in every situation made up basketball IQ without any reliance on actually carrying those tasks out then Eric Snow would probably be the most intelligent player we have seen in a long time.

  • johnny

    @ Z .. you keep going to stats for this season, but what you can’t seem to understand is that Deron was badly injured, and playing injured for months before he was healthy. His stats sucked during that time. CP3 might be better than Williams, who knows, but if Williams hadn’t been injured I believe he would lead the league in assists. I think he will lead the league for many years in assists with Paul second. Hopefully both will be healthy next year so we can see. Also the Jazz roster might be better than NO but you can’t say that for this year when Boozer (who is underrated) has barely played. Boozer is one of the leagues best PFs though.

  • nbk

    for calrification – i am not saying I know what to do in ever basketball situation but I did know everything about the offense and defenses we ran as a team.

  • http://idunkonthem.blogspot.com/ albie1kenobi

    i love how people argue about Bill Russell’s play. i mean, how many people have actually seen him play a game from tip-off to final buzzer? and mental game/capability isn’t something you can identify in the course of one game, like physical basketball skills such as scoring and rebounding. if one has the talent to identify mental capability that accurately, one should at least be a pro scout.

  • juliusj14

    @ Lz
    B-ball IQ is in fact knowing the right decision and not taking the decision. Its sort of like a regular IQ. You could have a high IQ and not utilize it all that doesnt mean that you dont have a high IQ. It is a high understanding of the game and all of its aspects. It has nothing to do with if you always use that understanding to guide you.

  • http://www.blogs.myspace.com/orignadro Witness

    wow. to my suprise this debate is getting a little awkward. especially for us CP3 fans who are crossing over.

  • nbk

    juliusj14 Posted: Mar.9 at 6:35 pmB-ball IQ is in fact knowing the right decision and not taking the decision. If that says what I think it says my IQ just dropped. How can someone be considered intelligent if they know what to do but wont do it? The only way to measure a persons intelligence is to test it, are you that retarted to think that testing it does not involve actually doing the thing that shows you have intelligence. Thats like asking someone if they know the answer to a question and just taking their word for it.

  • Magic

    With all due respect to DWill…
    SIIKKKEEEEEE.

  • http://idunkonthem.blogspot.com/ albie1kenobi

    that wasn’t directed at anyone in particular, just my 2 cents when TRUE old school players come up in discussion. i always wonder how people know if they haven’t witness those players play themselves.

  • juliusj14

    but NBK the reason Kobe doesnt correct his own mistakes is not because of a flaw in basketball IQ but it is that he is flawed on a psychological level unrelated to basketball. He probably is selfish and stubborn in other aspects of his life too.

  • http://www.blogs.myspace.com/orignadro Witness

    i just love when its a X player vs. Y player debate. and nobody ever get anything resolved. We should have a debate with multiple players.

  • http://idunkonthem.blogspot.com/ albie1kenobi

    @Witness: it’s even better when people argue about definition. it’s like pro-life vs pro-choice to a much lesser degree.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Julius; not in my book. How can one determine whether the player has the knowledge if he doesn’t utilize it? The only proof of BBall knowledge is that players continually takes the right decisions in game situations. Everything else is just speculation, about you thinking you know what the players know/think in given situation. Hence Kobe although the most complete toolbox is not nearly close to the top of the list. Ask yourself this: would a player with such excellent BBall IQ (as your suggesting) chase Shaq out of town? Ask any player if he wanted Shaq on his team back then, there is only one answer.

  • nbk

    Ok but that would be concerning real IQ julius. We are talking about on a basketball court. There is no psychological analysis, there is decision making and winning. Coaches make decisions players win. Kobe’s “willpower” keeps him from making intelligent decisions on the court. Either way an intelligent decision on a basketball court effects how your basketball IQ is perceived since there are no written tests or “what should I do in a given situation pop quiz” it is purely about the actions and decisions players make. If they are not intelligent decisions then their intelligence seems lower.

  • http://www.blogs.myspace.com/orignadro Witness

    @ albie1kenobi: yeah. i can see that. i dont even wanna talk about CP3 because it would be pointless. this topic is going nowhere. nobody is budging with their arguments.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Exactly NBK.

  • juliusj14

    Obviously you cant gauge a person’s IQ without testing it but Im saying that you cant say a person doesnt have a certain IQ doesnt aways use that IQ. Rasheed might have a high IQ but he just doesnt care sometimes and he doesnt try to do what is best. Does that mean Rasheed doesnt haev a high IQ because he doesnt try sometimes and you dont see his IQ in action. You think Rasheed doesnt understand(which comes from his IQ) that he has a higher chance of success in the post than he does at three-point line. Of course he does. Rasheed just wants to shoot Threes. that doesnt mean he has a low IQ.

  • nbk

    What your doing is ASSUMING Kobe Bryant is arguably the most intelligent basketball player of all time. You have no evidence to back up your claim, none

  • http://www.blogs.myspace.com/orignadro Witness

    i just think d-will exposes smaller guards. on both ends. like he dis to the rockets last year in the playoffs. he couldnt do it to the lakers because d-fish is too strong and sucha good defensive player. However, chris paul is a better help defender and no single point guard can stop him one on one.

  • nbk

    Julius your getting IQ and basketball IQ confused. One “matters” in real life, the other “matters” ONLY on a basketball court. On a basketball court there is no caring and not caring, there is winning and not winning. If your not helping your team win your an idiot basically. Plus you do realize there are people with downsyndrome that remember everything they hear but you wouldn’t go around saying they are more intelligent then you now would you?

  • http://idunkonthem.blogspot.com/ albie1kenobi

    but intelligence isn’t the all determining factor. emotions and other non-rational forces contribute heavily towards how any people make decisions and act. coz if everyone in the world thinks rationally, there’d be no cheating, no wars, no bad things happen in this world. seriously.

  • http://www.blogs.myspace.com/orignadro Witness

    d-will is good playing against any defense because its almost like hes waiting to explode. he proved that in the olympics. but paul is a much better facilatator and leader.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Julius; no, it doesn’t mean he has a low IQ. But it does mean he doesn’t have a high BBall IQ. Like I’m saying the only proof for high bball IQ is the decisions the players take during games. Rasheed might know all the plays, and know everything he needs to do out on the court, but when he gets tossed in the second for arguing a call, that negates his “smartness” on the court, therefore he doesn’t have one of the highest BBall IQ. Smart players get T’s too, but the only get one, and they get it to put pressure on the refs see: M. Jordan, T.Duncan, J. Stockton among others.

  • http://www.blogs.myspace.com/orignadro Witness

    Paul: 2 All-Star Games, Runner Up for 08 MVP
    D-Will: ?

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Anyways I’m out, getting late here in Europe. Keep up the discussion fellas.

  • juliusj14

    Why are still arguing with me over this? I told you that there is now way for us to agrre because we have different. You said that I have no evidence that Kobe is the most intelligent basketball player when I specifically said “arguably” and your still arguing with me over it when you cant even clearly prove Russell was the most intelligent player youreself with evidence yourself. I said “arguably” because I wanted to say he is in an elite class with some other intelligent players in history and I didnt want to just say he was greater than them with taking it into careful consideration. I even admitted that Bird Magic and Jordan probably did have greater IQs than Kobe. Im not arguing anymore because I simply dont have the time and plus I said it was pointless to argue over something like B-Ball IQ that doesnt have a concrete definition and is subjective to a person’s views.

  • nbk

    Don’t play the Martyr julius like you havent been defending yourself since you said we have different definitions. And I gave you evidence of why I said Russel, 11 rings, 1 as a player/coach, and article showing he outsmarted his opponents. Don’t bring up something and talk about it for over an hour then act like you want nothing to do with it.

  • Murphy

    now listen, i live in utah, i watch deron play every day and i watch CP3 play as much as possible. Deron is the bigger stronger and more needed player to the jazz and even the nba. CP3 is a great finese player but doesn’t play a near as big role with his team. Dwill is the heart and sole of this franchise and without him they will go no where and start playing as bad as idk the hornets…

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    I take DWill as my personal fav. I cant argue stat lines or +/- ratio even…just I prefer DWill over CP3. I think MArk Jacksons next five would be something like JKidd, Rondo, Derrick Rose….who else is a PG these days…? Bibby…? Does he get top 10 nod? Gilbert would be up there….if he ever got on a court.

  • juliusj14

    I been trying to get out of this arguement for a long time because I know that it will continue on forever. i didnt show evidence because i didnt really wanna argue for that long and didnt take the arguement as seriously as you did. I do have other things besides argue with you for hours. I even said that I repsected that your arguement even though we have different views. I just dont feel like argueing anymore but i did when i had the time to do it. You started the arguement with me when I made an statement and clearly said “arguably”(which meant that I dont really feel like arguing). You even questioned my knowledge of the game of basketball. I simply defended myself and my statement. I had no attention of proving it right or Wrong. My original statement was directed at Allen P because he was talking about how intelligent a basketball player Kobe was and it had nothing to do with you. i never wanted to argue but I argued with you because you attempted to make me look bad and so I defenended. You continue to push the issue even though already acknowledged that I respect your arguement and despite the fact that I disagree with it. Im not trying to prove anything because it is pretty pointless and very subjective.

  • http://www.blogs.myspace.com/orignadro Witness

    @ Dacre: theres still Mo Williams, Devin Harris, Jameer Nelson, Andre Miller, Raymond Felton, TJ Ford. to name a few.

  • http://www.blogs.myspace.com/orignadro Witness

    Westbrook ia good. I like Ramon Sessions.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    A bit late on the topic but still. IMO, there is no way to rank basketball IQs past a certain point. Russell prolly knew everything that there is to know about the game of basketball and then some. He was a player/coach on championship teams, for god’s sake! But so does Kobe… and MJ… and TD. (I’m holding back on D-Wil and CP3 because hoops IQ increases with experience). / Allenp, LeBron’s post game can not even be rated at the moment because it is not existent. Whether it’s footwork, IQ or repertoire, LeBron doesn’t have anything down low for the moment.

  • juliusj14

    @ Z
    I can agree with that Z but that is why I said arguably and then someone took that out of of context.

  • Orlando Woolridge

    These “debates” drive me crazy. Ryne and others: you can’t just say you prefer something, and then argue rigidly against everybody who thinks otherwise using only your preference as the basis of your argument. Perhaps if you saw Chris Paul practice since he was 20, you would think he has the most knowledge at the position, right? Unrelated, I want to say that I’m standing by my previous statement that was shot down here immediately a while back: Felton is as good a point guard as DJ

  • Havana

    Basketball IQ is many things. You have to pick and choose your spots. Even bad shot selection can have a purpose. For example I remember reading a Michael Jordan biography where he discusses his approache to the game, and one thing that he stressed is that periodically he would debilerately attack an oncoming double team (when he could have passed out of it) just to demonstrate to the Defence that he is still a threat to execute a particular offensive move so that they have to double team him HARD as opposed to feign the double team and have time to recover when the pass is made. By making that one selfish play, Jordan may have set himself and his team up for 9 more effective plays because the defence knew he was for real. I see shades of that in Kobe at times.

    When it comes to who is better debates I believe that the best indicator is the opinion of other people around the league (ie marketing, stats and coaching systems have less of an effect. Who are the players that are hardest to prepare for? who strike the most fear in their opponents. I also look at intrinsic subtleties such as Who has better footwork (a huge deal in basketball and something that can keep your opponents on the backfoot), or like someone said earlier DWill is a threat to pull up 2 times in a row from deep whereas thats not part of CP3s arsenal. Ask yourself if I was a coach and I was designing a system from scratch that was looking to exploit your personnel’s strenghts, which player would have more skills that are deployable?

    In the context of the CP3, DWill debate (and Im from oseas so I have no vested interest in any NBA franchise – I just like to follow good basketball)I’d have to say that DWill is the better player. DWill along with DWade, TP, Manu, Chauncey has one of the most creative handles in the league (CP3′s more of a drop his shoulder and seal a player off as I get past him, and run off lots of picks type of player – seriously he dosnt break ppl down as much as Dwill on one on one iso’s. DWill on the other hand appears to have the ball on a string and is constantly using variations of his footwork to break defenders down. As people have said on this thread Dwill is the better shooter and widely acknowledged (league wide i.e. quotes) as the better defender. CP3 is the better passer no doubt about it, but he is also the beneficiary of a lot of superstar calls (ie sealing players off with his off hand constantly, getting sent to the three throw line) and liberal interpretations of what an assist is. They are equal as leaders although DWill is more clutch.. Statistically, I believe CP3s past two seasons are going to be abnomally rather than the norm. It will be interesting to see his effect on games/stats when either of the following three happen:
    a)Pauls body breaks down and he loses some of his speed
    b)CP3 becomes disgruntled with the Hornets org (reasonably high chance, following their attempted cost cutting this past trade dealine) and moves onto another franchise
    a)NO management realise that they cant win a chip with an offence consisting of 3 guys standin around, 1 ball dominating PG and a bunch of pick n rolls, and begin to search for more talent that can fill other roles that CP3 is doing now

    CP3 to me is somewhat like Iverson back in his Philli days (down to the amount of time that he spends with the ball in his hands, yeah he passes but so?), yeah it works to moderate success but could it be transferable to any other team in the league or lead to a championship? Unlikely. Chances are if CP3 ever has to adapt his skills to a new system he will be more of a burden than a strength, or his stats will come way back down to earth.
    Just my opinion

  • kingofsota

    @Dacre, this year, 6-Harris, 7-Williams, 8-Rose, 9-Kidd, 10-(would be jameer nelson but he’s injured so) Rondo

    @Z:
    Why do you think the jazz are better than hornets? I am going to show you EVIDENCE that dwill is better:
    last time they played each other (in which BOTH were completely healthy, unlike the game on Jan 7, which Utah also won despite 26 from CP3), Deron had 20 pts and 13 assists while CP3 had 24 pts and 7 assists. I will use the points created method (points scored + (#ofassists *2.2), which is sometimes used in mvp discussions. In this game, DWill=48.6 while CP3=39.4 .. final score Jazz 102 Hornets 88. You can say the jazz are better but as you can see, at least in this game, DWILL was a 9 point difference. Go back and do that math for every game they have played and DWILL wins 8 of 14 – counting the game paul had off and the game dwill played while injured (22 mins of action). the jazz won 11 of 14, which does show they can win when deron doesn’t.. overall points created during head to head (This counts every single game NO vs. Utah during dwill/cp3 era, including games where dwill was injured-never missed one- and the 1 game cp3 took off): DWILL=457.2 CP3=416.8
    AVERAGE PTS CREATED: DWILL = 35.2 CP3 =32.6

    so dwill played one more game (hence the overall edge) but averaged 3 more pts created anyway. It is a very small margin, but his advantage nontheless. This shows that when head to head, which in my opinion matters most, Dwill is slightly better. CP3 is still a spectacular guard though!

  • kingofsota

    btw, you can go ahead and check for errors if you want but i’m very sure i did the correct math and have my work here if you want me to email it to you.

  • kingofsota

    oh and jazz were clearly better in the past Z, which i agree with because of playoff runs, obviously, thats why i did the individual math

  • Andrew

    You losers have too much time on your hands.

  • matt

    i hope they meet in the playoffs

  • Ryan

    “the people” also managed to elect George W. Bush to consecutive presidencies….just saying

  • http://myspace marcus

    I WILL PICK CP3 OVER D-WILL ANYDAY. I MEAN D-WILL IS A GOOD PLAYER IN ALL….BUT WHAT CAN HE DO BETTER THAN CP3??????EXACTLY…. NOTHING!!! SO ALL YOU D-WILL FANS TELL D-WILL TO MAKE IT TO THE ALL STAR GAME BEFORE YOU GO SAYING HE’S BETTER THAN CP3……HE’S NOT AND WILL NEVER BE BETTER THAN CP3 SO GET OVER IT!!!!!!

  • http://fdklf.com Jukai

    Am I late?
    Chris Paul is better.
    Period.
    Tata!

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    ^_^
    Hey you guys posted me some personal replies! a-thank-yah!
    I forgot about all those decent PG’s you mentioned too!! SESSIONS! A.MILLER! two guards that I’ve thought were very good! I cant believe I missed them in my own observations just now.
    Hmm…work today has been lengthy.

  • Jackie Moon

    Mark Price is the best.

  • Manumaniac

    They are both amazing players and obviously they are the two best point-guards (by far) in the league. To me, they are equally talented. The only difference is that D-Will compared to CP3 is a little bit more underrated. He should definitely have 2 NBA All Star Games under his belt (2008, 2009), but unfortunately he wasn’t selected. Anyway, if you ask me, CP3 would be my first selection for the point-guard spot, but not far ahead from Williams. Think about it this way: Chris Paul is an All-NBA First Team selection and Derron Williams is an All NBA Second Team selection. According to my books, that means that we are talking about 2 of the 10 best NBA players of our time. So, let’s just let them play their game and enjoy them!

  • Brandon.

    Jazz meet Hornets in playoffs. Jazz win 4-2

    Deron williams owns chris paul and the truth is out.

  • http://www.shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ TADOne

    Just because I couldn’t stay on and debate yesterday, I need to add one more thing to Ryne: hey, you know who the coaches and players on the Pistons always say who is the most cerebral player and the player who would make the best coach? Sheed! That’s right! So anyway, if Deron is like a coach right now as you say, then it must be true.

  • http://www.mynameinorange.blogspot.com Hisham

    I think Chris Paul is better, but!!: if i were picking teams and they were both available i’d pick deron because i wouldn’t want chris on my team going head to head with deron.

  • chazz

    ah hell naw cp3 is the better everyone knows it but hates to deny it!!!!!!

  • http://www.ravingblacklunatic.blogspot.com Allenp

    NBK
    How can you say basketball in the 1950s and basketball today aren’t that different because they are both basketball, but then use the argument that Larry Bird played in the “Golden Age.”
    Isn’t that saying that basketball isn’t just basketball and the quality of your wins depends on when you played?

  • Orlando Green

    DW is like John Stockton, at the end of his career he will be regarged a great point guard, very efficient and all of that stuff. But he will be as soon forgotten.

    CP3 has more flash, more skills and is like Magic, he will win chips and will be remembered as a Legend.

  • Caleb

    The only evidence people can present to say that Williams is better than Paul is the head-to-head matchups… that’s it, that’s all they have… because all the other evidence very clearly shows that at this point, Paul is the superior player. The numbers Paul has been putting up last season and this season are HISTORIC. Williams is a great player… and will be for years to come, but as Orlando Green posted above – CP3 is playing legendary ball, not just good ball.

  • nbk

    Allenp I was saying the competition was better when Larry and Magic played then at any time in league history. I didn’t coin the term “golden age” about the 80′s its just what the 80′s for the NBA was. (competitively). My basketball now vs basketball in the 50′s comment had nothing to do with competition it was saying the rules are the same the strategy was similar so Basketball IQ has not changed very much. The two topics are unrelated

  • matt

    orlando, i think your correct, but just the opposite.

  • L33tSauce

    Wow. This is a dumb debate. Deron williams will go down as one of the best of his generation. CP3 will go down as one of the best ever. Sure, Williams may tend to win their match-ups together, but you never stopped to think about the teams they were playing for?

  • Drama

    people are saying D will has the better players around him.. The reason why they are better players is because of D Will. Just look at Paul Milsap, Ronnie Brewer, to of the most underrated players in the L and thats because of WIlliams. CP3 is amazing but if i had to take one of the 2 i would go D will “No guts, No glory”

  • melinaR

    CP3 is better. D will is lucky to be mentioned with him.

  • Matt

    “CP3 is better. D will is lucky to be mentioned with him.” Now that’s just a statement of someone who doesn’t watch basketball. Have you even seen D-Will play? Both players are great, all-star apperences and stats aside. If CP3 is so great that DWILL is lucky to be mentioned with him explain the 2-10 record against him please? Explain why DWILL’s teams have went further? The Jazz aren’t that much better than the Hornets talent wise.

  • Dynomite

    This arguement is ridiculous. Its way to early to say anything. But if I had to choose right now, I would say CP. he leads the league in assists and steals. Dwill is ranked 34th in scoring compared to CPs 13th. Chris Paul can get to the goal at any time, so he doesnt need to consistantly drain threes. The reason he has so many assists is because he has great players around him. The jazz need Dwill just as much as the hornets need CP evidence of the amount of minutes they each play per game, 38 for CP and 36 for Dwill. Chris Paul also has a league second best triple doubles of 6 and is third in the league with 46 double doubles. Chris Paul also holds the league record for consecutive steals in a game with 108. Dwill gets 2.9 rebounds and CP gets 5 and CP as destroyed just as many people with his cross over as Dwill has.
    Chris Paul also came in second in the MVP race last year and is 4ht/5th this year. Where is Dwill?

  • Holiday

    Anybody talking for Tony lets just say his team is why he has 3 chips, and by the way DWill has a western conference appearence! And he beat out CP3 in in rout to getting the record for the Skills contest last year! DWill over CP3 I mean how many game winners has he hit, DWill is CLUTCH!

  • Danny J

    “Chris Paul has better numbers than Deron Williams”. That is all I hear from the chirping birds in this debate. Well, Kevin Martin has better scoring and gets more assists than Paul Pierce. Does that mean anything when Kevin Martin has accomplished nothing in the L? Neither has Chris Paul. Chris Paul has never won anything (college or NBA) and never will. You can argue that D-Will also has not but he has been to the NCAA championship and Western Conference finals. Chris Paul fans come talk when he can win more than 1 career postseason series. And, if you take out the first 6-8 games that D-Will came back from injury when his assists were way down, he averages more assists than CP3rd best PG.

    Not to mention a season sweep of the hornets with no all stars on his roster. Hornets had two.

    Makin ‘em say Ugh

    Danny J

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