The Fans Speak: DWill > CP3
I’m not one of those people who hates Charley Rosen, and after yesterday’s column regarding Deron Williams and Chris Paul, it’s safe to say I won’t be joining the hater ranks anytime soon. Several months ago, Lang and I had a semi-heated email debate about who’s the better 1, and Rosen argues in Deron’s favor with much of the same points. Rosen presents no ground breaking information to support his stance, but his opinion is not why I’m bringing this up.
The Jazz are playing their best basketball since the days of the Mailman and Short Shorts. And this time they have a star who clearly has no trouble delivering on Sundays. Even without a fully healthy Boozer, Utah’s riding an NBA-best 11-game win streak into the upper half of the Western Conf. standings. Mark Jackson, who some would say knows a thing or three about good point guard play, even put Deron atop his list of best point guards this season (here’s MJax’s top-five, from left-to-right), despite cries of heresy from fantasy heads and prominent stat geeks of the same employ.
I’d say the debate is alive and well.
Yeah, it seems like the only debate more taboo than CP3/DWill is Kobe and LeBron, but right now, we actually have some clear evidence of a shift in the public’s perception. Today’s poll on the FoxSports.com asks which point guard 
will have the better career. I dropped a quick vote for Deron, and to my surprise a solid majority of the 8,500 votes were on my side. How’s that for truth in numbers?
OK, it has to be said that the poll question is about who will have a better career and not necessarily who’s had the best career (or season) up to this point. But, even still, this is pretty astounding–that the majority of fans believe that when it’s all said and done, Deron Williams will achieve more in the League than Chris Paul. And isn’t that what you ultimately want when you’re building around your floor leader?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Pahqq-1hp0
Here’s my question to Ryne and everybody else that’s on the DWil side of this argument : WHAT CAN DERON WILLIAMS DO BETTER THAN CHRIS PAUL ON A BASKETBALL COURT?
“Don’t get caught in the LeBron James pipe dream. The best King James can ever be is an average NBA player.”
—Charley Rosen, wwfollower.com, 2003
And weezyleezy (?) is so right about TP. He’s got my vote for the best. Because he has chips!!!!!
riggs, 1- what stat is CP3 padding? Assists?! 2- what are Deron’s ”unrecognized” achievements?
Again, as Bryan said, D-Wil’s fans have to resort to ‘untangibles’, ‘gut feeling’ or ‘preferences’ to argue that he’s the better player because they can’t base it on facts. Saying that you prefer Deron is not a matter of debate.
How about this? Deron’s taken his team to the conference finals, losing to the champion Spurs in six. Has CP gone that far? Do we base value on numbers, or winning?
That has to be illegal or something.
Better team: Deron
Better team player: Chris period.
2- On ball defense. Not sure, I’d have to look at Deron’s D more. CP3 never gets abused though. Maybe you’re right, I’ll take your word.
3- Versatility because of his size. Do you mean that Deron can play the 2? He’s been quoted as saying that he hates playing on the wing and sees himself as a pure point.
4- Knowing the pg position like no other. You are absolutely incorrect. Under what circumstances does Deron know the pg position better than CP3 or Nash?
5- Nastiest cross in the L. Well, that’s an opinion. Ivey, Deron, CP3, Jamal Crawford… take your pick.
So basically Deron could be a better on-ball defender than Chris. Fair enough.
Deron has never been in a serious MVP discussion. Not even close. Deron was behind Paul in the Redeem Team. Deron has yet to make an all-star game.
Illryion, it means that Chris Paul is a top 5 player in the league whilst Deron is not. That’s what it means.
Someone said that Paul rebounds better because his team sucks at rebounding. There’s one rebound per game difference b/n the two teams.
Deron is a better shooter. The percentages don’t tell the entire story. If you watch both their games, Deron clearly has a better jumper. Chris Paul is a better penetrator, although Deron might have the nasty crossover in the league, as Ryne has says.
I ain’t arguing though, just wanted to say that.
LeBron and CP3 > DWill and Kobe
Deron actually has better one-on-one moves that Chris, particulary in the halfcour without a pick. Chris is crazy good with a pick, but just on an iso, Deron is better.
So Deron would have an easier time with a busted play.
Before I go, I know you’re a Deron fan. Where do you stand on this debate? You’ve been dropping points here and there in this thread but you didn’t take a stance.
I’ve watched Paul in the lane, and he’s a master. He’s similar to Nash in the way he probes and can pass or shoot in a heartbeat. However, he’s even better than Nash at finding contact and getting to the line.
Now, I think Deron is the better pure finisher because of his size, but I think Paul is better at working the lane and making something happen.
Right now, Chris Paul is better.
Last year, I thought Deron was better.
They flip flop. Kinda like the Holy Trinity of the NBA right now: Kobe, Lebron and Wade.
So, by the end of the season, Deron might be on top again, but right now I’d have to ride with Paul.
Sure, he has to do more for his team, but that means that other teams are keying on him more, which makes it even more impressive that he’s putting up those numbers.
Plus, Deron has been injured, and that counts against him this year.
It’s ain’t like we’re comparing Baron Davis to Allen Iverson.
Lol.
1)Chicago didnt run as much as NO.
2)He hadnt found his niche in the league yet.
3)He didnt have Chris Paul on his team. we are not taking assists from Paul because he throws alleys to Chandler we’re just saying that thats an easier play to make than a pick-and-roll beween Deron and Boozer. and the system that you play is very important to your numbers. Look at Steve Nash with D’Antoni and look at him without D’Antoni. Look at Shawn Marion without D’Antoni. Look at Chris Duhon now he averages almost 8 assist a game with D’Antoni thats good enough for 8th in the league. Look at how David Lee and Nate Robinson have flourished in D’Antoni’s system. Look at the decrease in Amare’s points without D’Antoni. Teams that run more give point guards more opportunities to get assists. That’s not taking anything away from Chris Paul he’s still arguably the best point guard in the game but its unfair to just look at the fact that he averages slightly more assist than Deron and say that he is better because of that. Thats the point that we are making. Deron and Chris are so great that they would still be averaging over 10 assist a game on any team but factors such as their teams, systems, and injuries can be the difference in their numbers. Thats why its pointless to use small stat differences to justify one being better than the other. Thats the point that I was trying to make. They are equally great but Deron Williams is often the one that gets overlooked because on the surface it appears that Paul is better.
I guess you weren’t around for the SLAM 50 debacle.
Why don’t you comb through the archives, check it out, and then you’ll get the joke.
Cool?
1) I mean, Charley Rosen said it! Charley Rosen! What more proof do you need that it’s wrong? I’m disappointed in you, Ryne, for using a Charley Rosen column to attempt to back up your ongoing argument that Deron Williams is better than Chris Paul. Next thing I know you’ll be linking to a Sam Smith story about some wild trade and saying it’s about to happen.
2) If I was building a team and I wanted a point guard who was really good at setting off-the-ball screens, I’d want Deron Williams. If I wanted a better shooter, passer, dribbler, defender, leader or guy to market my team with, I’d take Chris Paul.
3) BTW, didn’t you and I settle the CP3/D-Will debate a few months ago? Let it go, man. Deron Williams is very good, and he’s going to be the second-best point guard in the NBA for a long time to come. And that’s not the worst thing in the world.
I can get folks saying Paul is better. I just said it. But, he ain’t better at everything. He’s better at some stuff, like passing, and DWill is better at other stuff, anything involving scoring.
Just because Paul puts up more points doesn’t make him a better scorer.
Next y’all are going to be arguing that Lebron is a better scorer than Kobe.
Oh, and Kobe is easily the most intelligent basketball player in the league with the highest basketball IQ as well.
Sure he does dumb stuff, but that’s not because he doesn’t know the correct play, he’s just stubborn.
Allenp, isn’t it kinda hard to compare basketball IQ amongst players that rarely make bad decisions and know all the plays? I mean, once you get to a certain level, I feel a lot of cats would be tied at perfect. For instance, I’ve read somewhere that Sheed knows all the plays on O and D for the 5 positions and routinely tells people where to be on the floor. To me that’s perfect basketball IQ, I don’t see how that could be improved.
Good point.
I guess, when I watch Kobe, I feel like there are very few elements of basketball that Kobe is not extremely knowledgable about.
Offensensively and defensively, I get the sense that he’s a basketball encyclopedia. If he doesn’t know how to do it, then nobody in the league knows how to do it.
Kobe is arguably the most intellignet basketball player to ever play the game.
if you think Bill Russell was a more intelligent basketball player than Kobe then you must be new to the NBA. You could have at least said MJ or something and that also why I said “arguably” because I knew someone would “argue” my statement. Its impossible for Bill Russell to have had a greater basketball I.Q. than Kobe.
@ Allen P.
Kobe is arguably the most intellignet basketball player to ever play the game WOW I think I just **** myself.
Like I said, just because Kobe does stupid stuff sometimes, doesn’t mean he has a low IQ. I truly believe he is just stubborn and pig headed. It’s not about him having the knowledge, it’s about him putting it to use all the time.
Now, I don’t know about Kobe’s place in history since I didn’t watch the old cats who dominated. But, I think you are wrong to limit Kobe’s knowledge to just “scoring.” It’s obvious if you watch him play that he knows how to do everything on the floor. And do it just as well or better than almost all other players.
You’re operating on assumptions and based on what I’ve heard, they are false assumptions.
Everybody around the Hornets says Paul is the smartest and the hardest working person on that team. They say he’s on top of everything.
Finally, there is a difference between having knowledge and using it, and Russell and Kobe are good examples of that.
I think Russell understood how to play offense. By all accounts, it was his rebounding and outlet passes that jumpstarted the vaunted Celtics fast break. Plus, as a defensive terror, you have to understand offense. You can’t counter it unless you understand it. However, Russell was not a very skilled offensive player, which was probably the result of his focus and his team needs.
Kobe understands passing. During the Lakers title run, he was the facillitator for that team and a great all-around player. It was only later when he truly became a chucker. So, even though he doesn’t always make smart plays, it’s obvious, at least to me, that his failures are the result of stubborness and pride, not ignorance.
Like, Lebron is kinda ignorant when it comes to the intricacies of post footwork, not just unskilled.
Intelligence is not the deciding force in acting.
MANY people with high IQs fail to succeed in life because they do not possess other equally important skills. Kobe is the same way.
You are operating under a logical fallacy.
Which is winning obviously
Kobe has won as many championships as Larry Bird with less talent.
Fact.
And more than Jerry West and Oscar Robertson combined.
So Tim Duncan has a greater B-Ball IQ than Kobe too right? He is the closest thing to Russell in this era. Kobe has a higher understanding of the game but he never played on a team full of hall of famers who all had high IQs like Russell. Its easy to focus on rebounding defense and mind games when you dont have to score for your team to win multiple championships that doesnt mean he had a higher IQ. He had to do those things because he didnt have a great offensive game. He was compensating for it. He played in an era where there werent as many dominant players so he could strategize and play mind games like he did back then. The game has evolved to the point where the game is much more advanced than it was back then. Russell’s strategies would not be effective now.
Kobe understands every aspect of the game. sometimes he doesn’t ahve the willpower to put that knowledge to use. At least, that’s what I think. Like most people, he has problems reigning himself in.
Rings are rings.
Either we’re using rings to determine skill, or we’re not.
And I didn’t know the rules said you had to be the number one option.
Question, was Magic the number one option for the Lakers?
Your defintion of Basketball IQ and our defintion of basketball IQ are completely different. I understand what your saying with Russell but I just dont agree with it based on my own personal definition of basketball IQ. I’ll acknowledge that you do make a strong arguement for Russell but we would probably argue forever based on our different views. There is no way to clearly say one is better than the other and that is why I originally said “arguably”. So I wont argue anymore because it would take 2 long.
B-ball IQ is in fact knowing the right decision and not taking the decision. Its sort of like a regular IQ. You could have a high IQ and not utilize it all that doesnt mean that you dont have a high IQ. It is a high understanding of the game and all of its aspects. It has nothing to do with if you always use that understanding to guide you.
SIIKKKEEEEEE.
D-Will: ?
I can agree with that Z but that is why I said arguably and then someone took that out of of context.
a)Pauls body breaks down and he loses some of his speed
b)CP3 becomes disgruntled with the Hornets org (reasonably high chance, following their attempted cost cutting this past trade dealine) and moves onto another franchise
a)NO management realise that they cant win a chip with an offence consisting of 3 guys standin around, 1 ball dominating PG and a bunch of pick n rolls, and begin to search for more talent that can fill other roles that CP3 is doing now CP3 to me is somewhat like Iverson back in his Philli days (down to the amount of time that he spends with the ball in his hands, yeah he passes but so?), yeah it works to moderate success but could it be transferable to any other team in the league or lead to a championship? Unlikely. Chances are if CP3 ever has to adapt his skills to a new system he will be more of a burden than a strength, or his stats will come way back down to earth.
Just my opinion
Why do you think the jazz are better than hornets? I am going to show you EVIDENCE that dwill is better:
last time they played each other (in which BOTH were completely healthy, unlike the game on Jan 7, which Utah also won despite 26 from CP3), Deron had 20 pts and 13 assists while CP3 had 24 pts and 7 assists. I will use the points created method (points scored + (#ofassists *2.2), which is sometimes used in mvp discussions. In this game, DWill=48.6 while CP3=39.4 .. final score Jazz 102 Hornets 88. You can say the jazz are better but as you can see, at least in this game, DWILL was a 9 point difference. Go back and do that math for every game they have played and DWILL wins 8 of 14 - counting the game paul had off and the game dwill played while injured (22 mins of action). the jazz won 11 of 14, which does show they can win when deron doesn’t.. overall points created during head to head (This counts every single game NO vs. Utah during dwill/cp3 era, including games where dwill was injured-never missed one- and the 1 game cp3 took off): DWILL=457.2 CP3=416.8
AVERAGE PTS CREATED: DWILL = 35.2 CP3 =32.6 so dwill played one more game (hence the overall edge) but averaged 3 more pts created anyway. It is a very small margin, but his advantage nontheless. This shows that when head to head, which in my opinion matters most, Dwill is slightly better. CP3 is still a spectacular guard though!
Chris Paul is better.
Period.
Tata!
Hey you guys posted me some personal replies! a-thank-yah!
I forgot about all those decent PG’s you mentioned too!! SESSIONS! A.MILLER! two guards that I’ve thought were very good! I cant believe I missed them in my own observations just now.
Hmm…work today has been lengthy.
How can you say basketball in the 1950s and basketball today aren’t that different because they are both basketball, but then use the argument that Larry Bird played in the “Golden Age.”
Isn’t that saying that basketball isn’t just basketball and the quality of your wins depends on when you played?
Chris Paul also came in second in the MVP race last year and is 4ht/5th this year. Where is Dwill?
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