Wednesday, April 29th, 2009 at 6:18 pm  |  58 responses

Do You, Jeremy

The Commish says “High School, Schmigh School.”

Jeremy Tyler

by Vincent Thomas / @vincecathomas

“They see what they wanna see.” That’s what Jeremy Tyler’s father, James, told me over the phone as we discussed the media ire surrounding his son’s decision to skip his senior season and go play pro ball in Spain.

So, you know what? Shut your traps for a second. Quiet the self-righteous uproar about education for a moment and consider this scenario…

Let’s say you’re son is a 14-year-old closet genius who wants to be an astronaut when he grows up. He spends all his days immersed in aerospace engineering texts and—being the savant he is—manages to build a model-size spaceship in your garage that gets the attention of not only NASA but also the Russian Federal Space Agency, who invites your son to come participate in one of their programs. The program is a quicker, surer, more immediate route to becoming an astronaut, perhaps as soon as the two-year program ends. They’ll pay your son six-figures. But (GASP!) that would mean he has to leave his cornball public school in Fort Lauderdale and get a home school degree while he goes to Russia to get paid a lot of dough to pursue a course that puts him in line realizing his astronaut dreams. Let’s say all this is the case. What’s your advice to your son?

“Son. I think you should stay here, stay bored in high school, and start thinking about the eight, maybe 10 years of college it’ll take to get that PhD in engineering. Enjoy your youth!”

“But, Pops,” he says. “You know what would make me happiest? Becoming an astronaut. High school is boring. I’d rather read this month’s Journal of Propulsion and Power than Langston Hughes. And the seniors in my Physics class are such idiots. This one meathead was watching a porno on his iPhone. I wanna go to Moscow.”

Screw walking across a high school stage to get some piece of paper from a principal who’s breath always smelled like tuna and cigarettes. Completion of that two-year program in Moscow is what this kid needs as an in to his profession of choice. Not to mention, he’ll make hundreds of thousands of dollars while he’s at it.

How is this different from Jeremy Tyler’s situation? This is a 6-11, 260-pound beast from San Diego that is projected as the first pick of the NBA’s 2011 Draft. Instead of wasting another season playing against relative scrubs, for a carousel of coaches, he decided to skip his senior season of high school and head to Spain to make six-figures, play against grown men, train under a pro regimen and get as prepared as possible for his dream—playing in the NBA. Prodigy singers and actors do this all the time. Parents uproot them from whatever crappy school they attend in Alabama and take them to Hollywood or New York City. You think the Olson twins were going to PE class when they were 15? Was Justin Timberlake falling asleep in trigonometry?

And what about sports like tennis and hockey and golf where kids turn pro in their mid-teens all the time? Was anyone deriding the 16-year-old Andre Agassi when he turned pro?

New York Times college reporter Pete Thamel, who broke the Tyler story, followed up his news piece and Tyler-profile with a blog quoting some folks’ reactions. One unnamed NBA exec distilled Tyler’s decision into this perfectly keen question: “Why wouldn’t a player want to earn income as early as they can?”

Thank you, unnamed Western Conference general manager. That’s exactly what I think. If the NBA wants to enforce it’s age-rule that requires a player to be 19 and one year removed from high school in order to be drafted, then you know what I’m telling probable lottery picks like Tyler? “Go get your money, baby.” That and, “Go get your preparation, baby.”

I just can’t see how anyone can argue against a teenager getting paid serious cash in leagues that will better prepare him for the NBA than one year at UCLA or, in Tyler’s case, Louisville.

But then, that’s not what this is about, right, America? This is about education or Tyler’s lack of regard for the esteemed institution and teaching vehicle we know as the public school system.

“You know what? I’d be semi-OK if he were going to Spain after he graduated. But dropping out as a junior to go play ball overseas?! That’s taking it too far!”

Shut up! News flash, rubes—Tyler isn’t dropping out!! He will get his high school diploma through Penn Foster Career School, an accredited school of independent home study. In fact, according to his father, Tyler will even be working toward a bachelor’s while he’s in Spain. Why is this very key piece of information—information that dispels the notion that Tyler is some lost teen drop out—never mentioned when the young man is getting derided on television, radio, in print and at the water-cooler?

They see what they wanna see. They wanna see a young black man chasing pro-ball dreams, taking the final ethical and moral plunge of dropping out to go chase dollars—like this kid is some aspiring rapper, dropping out at 15 to go hawk his wack demo to the Manhattan reJermey Tylercord labels.

That’s how you’re looking at this? Word? Get the eff outta here.

“It’s ludicrous that they would think that,” said James Tyler.

Yes, ludicrous.

The judges and high horse-riders do know that Jeremy has a Pops, right? Because, you know, I’m wondering. Or are they just seeing what they wanna see? They do know that, despite, you know, being a black man and all, James Tyler is actually an involved father. They do he’s been self-employed for 17 years, manages staff and has been able to provide a comfortable, livable life for his son and daughter in San Diego, right? James is not some slime-ball, never working, deadbeat dad that is looking to cash in on his son, as soon as possible. James is not Denzel Washington from He Got Game. James and Jeremy have been “researching” this move for two years. This was a decision given great thought, pros and cons weighed heavily.

“People wanna look at this through a straw-sized tunnel,” said James. “But, if they would look at the whole picture, they’d have more respect for the decision.”

James talks about preparation, protection and growth.

Tyler was quoted in the Times piece saying that high school ball “was boring and I wasn’t getting better. Each game was the same thing. I was getting triple-teamed and getting hacked. After each game I’d have scratches and bruises up and down my arms from getting triple-teamed. It just wasn’t for me.” Things would have been better in college, but the prep he’ll get overseas is even better. The grueling practices, the grown-man competition, the focus on basketball—talk to scouts and execs and most will speak highly of the player grooming in foreign leagues. Jeremy and James took that into consideration.

Tyler won’t get the money that Brandon Jennings signed for last year when he went to Italy instead of Arizona. But the money will be substantially better than his college stipend and whatever he would/could get under the table (though I am not, at all, saying Rick Pitino was set to pay Tyler to come to Louisville). The real issue here, says James, is the protection. Tyler will be an insured athlete overseas. When players suffer career-ending injuries in colJeremy Tylerlege, the universities can often toss them—or more importantly, their scholarships—aside. And the prospect of an NBA career—their first opportunity to earn a living from basketball—vanishes. Tyler can rest a little easier in Spain knowing that his limbs are insured/protected. Again, why is this kind of information never a part of the discussion?

James even speaks about “growth.” Growth is often cited when the NCAA-lackeys want to extol the virtues of spending a one or two-year sham of a stint on a college campus. “Oh, you learn so much about being an adult.” Whatever, Fonzworth. James says that Jeremy is prepared for a tough existence in Spain and that it will make him a better person, more appreciative of what hopefully awaits him as an NBA player. Many times, athletes go from spoiled in high school, to coddled in college, to the fantasy world of pro sports. Chris Webber might call Hedo Turkoglu the “Michael Jordan of Turkey,” but ain’t no athletes stuntin’ like MJ in Turkey.

“Think about the character he will build over there as a young man,” said James. “I think he’ll sit back and look at America and he’ll be more appreciative of what it offers. He’ll get a bird’s eye view that will make him appreciate things more when he comes back.”

This decision and route to the NBA is not for everybody. If a dude is the 126th-ranked player in his class and gets an offer to go play in Poland for $35,000 per year, he may want to stay put, finish high school and see if he can get a scholarship to go play for Jeff Capel. But if you’re a projected lottery pick and six-figures awaits you in a foreign pro league, cross the Atlantic or Pacific and get your GED or online diploma overseas while you get that money, preparation and protection.

Lurking behind all of this is the slickster Sonny Vaccaro, the man behind the maligned AAU-boom and last year’s Jennings decision. Jeremy and James worked with Vaccaro to make this happen. It is still not fully known what, if any, Vaccaro is gaining from these deals. Olden Polynice, who has worked with Jeremy, was quoted in the Times as saying Jeremy was getting “pimped.” Whether or not he was talking about Vaccaro is unclear, but I am personally skeptical. Perhaps Vaccaro is setting up these overseas-connections for personal gain. Maybe he’s doing it as an eff-you to the NCAA. Who knows. Perhaps I should act like an actual journalist and find out. But maybe, just maybe, Vaccaro feels the same way about this NBA-NCAA handcuff-job that I do, and he happens to have the connections, clout and means to do something about it.

All I know is that I hope more players follow Jennings and Tyler, if they feel that’s what’s best for them (I wrote an NBA.com column applauding Jennings’ decision). I hope they don’t bow to public opinion and consensus thinking.

Jeremy’s dad said his son is flying on “the wings of change.” He is. And all you people with your biases, stereotypes, baseless opinions and old notions need to get outta the way.

Vincent Thomas is a columnist and feature writer for SLAM, a contributing commentator for ESPN and writes the weekly “From The Floor” column for NBA.com. You can email him your feedback at vincethomas79@gmail.com or “follow” him on Twitter at @vincecathomas.

Photos by Peggy Peattie and Mark Avery.

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  • SLAM ONLINE | Posted: Apr.29 at 6:23 pm
    [...] Truth about Jeremy Tyler [...]

  • Calibro Posted: Apr.29 at 6:41 pm
    Good post. I agree with this one, too. Tyler should get his money while he can.

  • Tzvi T Posted: Apr.29 at 6:43 pm
    Okay, Vincent, I hear you loud and clear. You had key line about the kids doing it if its right for them. I agree with that assemnet: kids should do what’s best for them. I’m just not sold that this is what’s best for most kids. Anyway, GL to Tyler. See you in two years.

  • Z Posted: Apr.29 at 7:18 pm
    Don’t worry Tzvi T, most kids won’t get 6 figures offers from Euro teams in the 10th grade. The fact that he has the opportunity to finish HS overseas and even enroll in university over there renders any point point about education null and void.

  • realrap Posted: Apr.29 at 7:27 pm
    Truth be told.. Thank you! Our Society, although great, needs to grow whole-heartedly. We should groom our youth at what they are great at, while teaching them the basics.
    This way more rocket-scientists, lawyers, doctors, and Lebrons will be realized earlier instead of wasting time in classes with lames.

  • that dude Posted: Apr.29 at 7:37 pm
    Jennings and Tyler ’09: Change we believe in!

  • Teddy-the-Bear Posted: Apr.29 at 7:43 pm
    Great article, Vince. I agree with what you said about these cornball media heads.

  • Myles Brown Posted: Apr.29 at 8:10 pm
    I concur.

  • sam Posted: Apr.29 at 9:27 pm
    nice work, i agree with you…who cares if he gets his diploma at his high school, he can always get a tutor in spain and STILL graduate

  • B. Long Posted: Apr.29 at 10:46 pm
    Great stuff, Commish.

  • Cheryl Posted: Apr.29 at 11:18 pm
    True.

  • nate the great Posted: Apr.29 at 11:22 pm
    smart choice, i wish i had this chance.

  • TwinParadox Posted: Apr.29 at 11:41 pm
    People see a black kid chasing money, ignoring education, and hopes that he fails just to rub it in his face about how they were right. great stuff commish. What’s so good bout high schools and college anyways if you already know what you’re destined for?

  • Dacre Posted: Apr.30 at 12:47 am
    GREAT GREAT GREAT ARTICLE!!!! At the end of the day an age restriction on players entering the NBA (which is fine) should have very little bearing on where a player is upto prior to that… It’s like a conspiracy theory or something along those lines. “Make an age restriction on players, forcing their hand to stay in the system”. It shouldn’t be a problem that a world-class basketball player can use his skills straight away. He should at the very least be able to make his own decision on the matter. The world shouldn’t be about ‘being educated’ (how many homeless people have a degree or previously owned their own business or at the very least completed schooling?) the world should be about living your life and striving for your goals.

  • matt(ballislife Posted: Apr.30 at 2:34 am
    It’s not just about getting the money while he can but about like he said, playing against better competition. I watched tyler since he was a freshman, and he’s always been up for the game of competition. At the NIKE SayNoClassic featuring all D1 college players, Tyler was begging to play in a game because he was tired of playing against all the “kids” at the camp being held in the same gymnasium. He wanted to play against some PAC-10 players and guys that were grown men the summer before his junior year of high school. I also watched as he was practically crawled on in his high school games and no one really gave a damn, he had bloody lips, scratches as he said, and the fans and refs gave HIM a hard time about taking it easy on the smaller kids. JTyler I applaud you for your move, and great article VT. I make that same exact argument to everyone I come across about the rock stars, smart kid geniuses, actors and actresses and people always tell me….”it’s different”.

  • chintao Posted: Apr.30 at 4:38 am
    Vincent Thomas reps the real, as usual. The McNulty of this here isht. Nat’ral journalist. Anyway, just to add-on to what James Tyler said about his boy experiencing something different and appreciating things more when he gets back. It is also possible that he will experience something different and decide that its better than the place he left. That happens too.

  • Justin Walsh Posted: Apr.30 at 6:13 am
    I’m glad you did it justice Vince. We know you’re legit.

  • Ned Mahony Posted: Apr.30 at 6:34 am
    Great article, Vince.

  • Sir William Effus V V aka Willie Posted: Apr.30 at 9:15 am
    This is pretty much the best article I’ve seen you write (Sans the Eff’s) it gives a side of the story you haven’t heard anywhere else. Other articles make it appear that dude dropped out and went overseas. And I completely agree with you for once. Solid Thomas

  • Co Co Posted: Apr.30 at 9:53 am
    This helped a lot Vince. I was torn about my feelings on this situation.

  • Z Posted: Apr.30 at 10:00 am
    Oh and Vince, you’re an incredible writer. Props.

  • Plasticman Posted: Apr.30 at 10:26 am
    Hmmm never heard of this dude (I’m an Aussie living in UK though) but in the photo his jumpshot looks a little “Bill Cartwright” and “David Robinson”. Lets hope he turns out more like D-Rob than “B-Cart”, 3 rings aside.

  • Steve Posted: Apr.30 at 11:03 am
    Here’s the thing. It’s great that the kid is going to be able to do what he wants to do in preparation (hopefully) for a long and fruitful basketball career. And even better that his dad says that he’ll earn his HS diploma overseas and will be working towards a bachelor’s degree. But the biggest problem I have is the essentially flip attitude toward education. I know he’ll obtain his GED, etc., etc., but people saying that it’s okay to go and make money while foregoing an education that would benefit in the long-term is a problem. For some kids (i.e., LeBron, Kobe, et al.) it’ll work out. But in general, even for the Brandon Jennings of the world, the educational path would help. Hopefully, Tyler’s dad has his head in the right place, but I’m scared of seeing other kids without the support system leaving HS early in hopes of a career that may never materialize.

  • Cizzo Posted: Apr.30 at 11:21 am
    After futher thought into this, because I thought he was making a huge mistake, this is the best move for him. We knoe he can but up big numbers at the high school level what purpose will that when his only concern is to become the best pro ball player imagineable, the Euro league can best prepare him for the NBA.

  • Jukai Posted: Apr.30 at 11:49 am
    I’m less worried about him leaving High School and more interested to see how many minutes he’s going to get and how he’s going to actually improve his game in Europe. At fifteen years old, I’m not sure how much PT he’s going to get. I know you only get better playing better competition, but you also don’t really get better unless you’re actually playing. Would playing 40 minutes a night in High School be better than playing four minutes a night in the Euroleague? I played about four minutes a night in High School so I’m totally clueless about this.

  • Michelle Posted: Apr.30 at 12:02 pm
    Just in reference to “Steve” … Penn Foster isn’t actually a GED program. It’s an actual High School Diploma program consisting of accredited curriculum hours – check into it. The program is also accredited by Middle States which is what regular public High Schools need to grant diplomas. Penn Foster must meet the same criteria as a public school – it’s just home-based. That’s the only difference. On a side note, my husband is a teacher in the public school system and recently SHOCKED ME when he told me that they no longer teach Grammar… reasoning? It’s not on the standardized tests each state is required to give to see whether a student is able to graduate. RIDICULOUS. The public school system and these standardized tests have become a joke. They’re turning out even POORER quality students than before Bush implemented this ridiculously under-funded act. Typical government. I applaud this young man for doing what’s in his heart and STILL thinking of the importance of education. HOW you achieve your diploma isn’t nearly as important as actually having an education.

  • Twin Paradox Posted: Apr.30 at 12:11 pm
    Jukai accually makes a good point. Never thought of the amount of time he would spend on the bench because we all see him as this extreamly talented player. He’s still a really young player and as Jukai said he’ll probably not get a lot of PT

  • Marco Posted: Apr.30 at 12:53 pm
    If he plays at least about 15 minutes per game when he declares for the nba draft he will be light years ahead of any other rookie for what regards the comprehension oh the game

  • The Seed Posted: Apr.30 at 12:56 pm
    I loved this article, more insight is always better when reading people’s facts/opinons on situations or cirumstances. I feel that black men get portrayed as all we do is go after money, girls or drugs. So this is why some media say he is chasing dreams-money and not give all these vital facts .Because of some rappers who kids see as the most popular influential black men — they affect what I generation thinks about and does, but don’t get me wrong family structure plays a part in it too about parents pushing their kids to learn on their on and leave the TV/videogames alone. Really what can Grand Theft Auto do for You in life. Its not fair for tennis players, golf and baseball to jump earlier if they are good enough, but a dominated black sport like basketball gets an age requirement to help the quality of the NBA, when the best players in the league top 3. Kobe, Lebron, Howard all jumped from High School. After reading Michelle point is right I am a teacher and the quality of education has fallen off, with so many tests, teacher teach for kids to pass test, instead of them learning the basics and to be honest black male students are the worst kids in terms of caring about school in the area where I teach at-a lot want to be rappers, football players or basketball players but don’t know multiplication facts and some don’t care about reading, which is the doorgate to knowledge or don’t have a great male role model around like this kid to help them choose their destiny in life. Take the Ben Carson story-3rd grade educated mom, made him and his brother read two books a week, now Ben Carson is top surgeon at John Hopkins University and brother is an engineer. I applaud his choice, just hopes it works out for him, and since he has a strong father pressence in his life, he will be fine. Dad seems grounded and will keep him grounded, even if he sits the bench less pt, or goes over there and dominates. Sorry for writing so much its just topics, where people are judged and stereotyped before all the truth comes out, sickens me. Hopefully people will read this well written story and realize there are always two sides to every story, because from my media take on the story before article, was he was black boy who sucked at school/didn’t care about school, wanted money now, and wanted to go against the grain for all the wrong reasons. Great read!!!

  • ciolkstar Posted: Apr.30 at 12:56 pm
    Jukai is being ridiculous. Tyler isnt 15, he’s 17 and he’ll be 18 for most of next season. Tony Parker played in pro french leagues when he was 15. The comp for his school is garbage, so playing 40 minutes is more added risk than adding improvement/maturity to his game. A valid critique could be to suggest he transfer to a bigtime prep HS (ex:Oak Hill) for his senior season. But those schools are really just player factories so academics likely wouldn’t be too important there anyway. Playing for a team that is actually going to pay you instead of exploit your talents for its own gain makes sense to me. No one can be sure if he’s making the right decision, but I wish the young man well.

  • Z Posted: Apr.30 at 1:59 pm
    Jukai, young dudes usually don’t play much in Europe. Parker wasn’t killing anything when he came here, Batum didn’t play more for LeMans then he plays for the Blazers. The game is different, they play everybody…. Josh Smith doesn’t play more than 25 mins a game. Even if he plays 10 mins a game his first years, he’ll be miles above and beyond his graduating class just because of the two a days against grown ass Scolas and Nocionis and Varejaos.

  • M2 Posted: Apr.30 at 2:20 pm
    ACL tear

  • Old School Baller Posted: Apr.30 at 2:55 pm
    Great article. But college, not high school or Europe is still the proving ground for the NBA. The NBA is a job . . . it takes not only physical skill but a high level of maturity to be successful long-term. No general manager feels comfortable offering “guaranteed” money to kids who have not proven they have both. Previous posts mention the number of HS draftees who have done well but not the ones who have flamed out. The highest predictor of success in the NBA is (i) dominance on the collegiat level against kids your age or older and your skill level and (ii) a confirmation from a reputable coach like Bobby Knight, Pitino, etc. that you have the “chemical make-up” worthy of guaranteed money. Magic, Worthy, Jordan, Isaiah, etal all had this. Anything short of these two traits and you are still a “question mark”. Funny how the people on this post have never invested their money in high school kids who haven’t gone through the grind of college ball. Why not put your money where your mouth is?

  • the baconator Posted: Apr.30 at 3:03 pm
    Ya know, I have to agree with Jeremy’s decision. The fact is, college isn’t for everyone, and what the NBA is doing is practically forcing kids to attend college just to play pro ball. Is it fair to make a kid attend college, even though he might flunk out? In a way, David Stern’s decision is almost prejudiced against less intelligent kids who can ball (see Brandon Jennings). The point is, you don’t need college to be successful in life. I wish Jeremy the best in playing overseas, and hope SLAM will keep us updated on his play

  • Old School Baller Posted: Apr.30 at 3:10 pm
    As quiet as it’s kept, smart kids and less intelligent kids who can ball should thank the NBA for expanding. Since Jordan, Bird, Magic were in their prime, the NBA has expanded by at least 5 more teams which equates to about 75 more jobs. Without the expansion at least 75 kids would either be (i) in college, (ii) in Europe, (iii) in the CAB . . . er I forgot the CBA disbanded because the NBA took all their players after the expansion, or (iv) bagging groceries.

  • Jukai Posted: Apr.30 at 3:36 pm
    Z: I don’t know, man. I get what yer saying and I don’t. If I play against superior competition (let’s say when I play pick-up games at St Johns), I usually do less to make less mistakes, and I’m just more ready to stand, spot-up shoot, and stay out of better people’s way. When I play against worse competition (let’s say, the suburban college kids who I dominate hardcore whenever I’m shooting hoops at the park around my house) I’m more apt to drive, to try out more things in my game, to test things out and see how far I can take them. I know I’ll never get better CONSTANTLY playing those kids, but I don’t think I’d ever learn anything new if I just played against kids better than me. Tyler is putting himself in a position to fail pretty hardcore, because if he doesn’t get it, he’s going to be playing five minutes a game, and even if he does, he’s playing 10-15 against competition where he’s not allowed to screw up. If he was in High School, he’d be playing every night.
    But I’ll delve into it even more: when he’s the star of the team in High School, it’s the coaching staff’s mission to train him and get him even better. If he’s an 11th man on a European team, he may be stuck drilling with the team and not actually working on his individual game.
    Again, I’m not entirely sure I know what I’m talking about since I’m not familier with either system. I’m just thinking rationally here: can ten minutes of playing against competition way better than you while you’re on a tight chain be better than playing 40 minutes a game against superior competition but having the ability to expand your game a lot more?
    I guess if there isn’t too much of a difference, the money sure as hell helps.

  • Jukai Posted: Apr.30 at 3:38 pm
    I’ll also say once again that this isn’t about the education, I’m simply looking at it from a development standpoint. He’s getting his degree so there should be no problem with him leaving his High School…

  • Izzo Posted: Apr.30 at 4:31 pm
    Jukai:In my opinion,he doesn’t have to play one single minute all season and this wouldn’t be a failure.If he fails to break into the senior team,then I’ll assume he’ll be put on the club’s youth team,which will be in and around the same as the comp he would face in high school.If worst comes to worst,he’ll be in the same position as he was in high school,except he’ll be making money,not earning money for the NCAA or contributing to the basketball’s hypocritical and exploitative pre NBA farm.
    How dare a young basketball player do exactly what every young,successful sportsperson has done,but a few years later?
    And the galling thing about this is that the guy is actually getting an education and finds is somewhat important.If you take an example of soccer,here’s the typical scenario(and I know more than 5 guys who this has happened to personally):Gets trial with big club at 14,gets signed to apprenticeship at 15/16,maybe get signed to a pro contract at 17,gets released,joins smaller club,doesn’t play,gets released,comes home,is unemployed/continues making ok money at small club.But that’s acceptable in every other sport except basketball.The differences is,in this case,Tyler is making much more money,has the benefit of at the very least a high school education and even if he ‘fails’ and has a career in Europe,he’s still making around a million a year.

  • ciolkstar Posted: Apr.30 at 4:41 pm
    I think the amount of time spent developing Tyler’s game will likely be a function of the investment a team makes in him. The more they pay him the more they’ll want to see him on the court. Also, the fact that the Euro game is less about atheleticism than fundamentals and teamwork should lead the coaches to focus on shooting, passing, ball handling and decision making so that the coaching staff will trust him more out there. Jennings has struggled some in this regard, but I feel like playing PG not PF/C contributes some to that.

  • Z Posted: Apr.30 at 5:05 pm
    Jukai, you underestimate the value of practise. Over there, they usually practice 10 times a week and play once. You learn A LOT of those individual skills in practise. Not playing a lot will not kill his chances.
    Going to Europe was a huge success for Jennings even though the critics will tell you otherwise. A) He made money. Lots of it. B) He learned to play good, fundamentally sound defense (not reaching or jumping the passing lanes) C) He learned to share the ball and slow the game down. All of that without hurting his stock. Those 3 things would have NEVER happened at Arizona.

  • Z Posted: Apr.30 at 5:07 pm
    To me, it’s really a no-brainer for the top HS kids. Again, I repeat : THE TOP HS KIDS. Euroball is a better farm system for the NBA then HS/NCAA. Better competition, better pay. Add to that the possibily to still get their HS degree. It’s a wrap.

  • Allenp Posted: Apr.30 at 6:02 pm
    Old School
    Have you ever actually looked at the “flamed out” list for high school players? The percentage is MUCH lower than it is for four year players.

  • Old School Baller Posted: Apr.30 at 6:21 pm
    Good point Allenp. However, I dissect the NBA into (i) pre-expansion and (ii) post-expansion. Post-expansion most of the McDonald’s All-Americans with built in hype go early. By definition, the 4 year players either were not considered the best in high school (and believe me the McDonald’s AA panel does not miss too many) or struggled in college to begin with. That said, many of the guys who left early and flamed out could have made it had they gone to college and developed their skills and gained maturity. In the pre-expansion world, nobody left early until they had already dominated the collegiate ranks. Give me the flame out rate on guys like Isiah, Doc Rivers, Magic, Worthy, Jordan, Mark Aguirre, Chris Webber, etc. These guys were so dominant that in most cases, their college coaches advised them to go early, and in the case of Aguirre, he had to go early just to give his teammates a chance to develop. Flame out rate on these guys – 0%. The post-expansion league is “watered down” with apprentices trying to learn the game. It’s almost criminal to compare the accomplishments of Isiah, Jordan, etc. to current players building their reps against high school kids, 6’8″ centers, apprentices, European players, and 38-40 year point guards who 5 years past their prime.

  • ciolkstar Posted: Apr.30 at 6:25 pm
    Old School is clearly biased (check the name)
    The names he listed as egit stars are all of the last era:
    “Magic, Worthy, Jordan, Isaiah, et all”
    while conveniently ignoring:
    “KG, Kobe, LeBron, Dwight”
    Hell, throw in “Shawn Kemp and Moses Malone” for a little old school flava.

  • ciolkstar Posted: Apr.30 at 6:34 pm
    I think the boom in HS players coming to the league has more to do with teams speculating, looking for future stars they could get at better value, before the player’s stock was so high that they’d have to go in the top 5.
    Then once it became commonplace, and some of those HS kids became extremely successful stars in the L, the next kids themselves began to expect to make the jump. The reality is that most 18 year old HS stars are not good enough to make an immediate impact in the NBA, and there are too many questions regarding attitude, growth, maturity, etc. But thats still not a good reason to enforce an arbitrary rule that protects the league from these “risks” at the expense of the few young players who are good enough to play at that elite level.

  • Old School Baller Posted: Apr.30 at 6:35 pm
    Fair point ciolkstar. It still took KG, Kobe, and Dwight a few years to develop their basketball IQ. Even Amare admitted that his bball IQ would have been higher had he gone to college . . . seeing the catch 22 of going early. Lebron is a somewhat different case because he had a “grown man’s” body the day he entered the league. The point I made is check the kids who had dominated the collegiate ranks, been named 1st or 2nd team All-American, and left college early. The flame-out rate on those guys – 0%. You think the NBA is requiring kids to spend a year in college in order to be obstructionists? How are diamonds made? Through centuries of heat, light, pressure, heat, light, pressure, etc. If you skip a step, the best you can ever be is a cubic zirconium. College is a ball player’s version of “heat, light, pressure”. The NBA doesn’t want to hand out guaranteed contracts to cubic zirconiums. And if kids keep trying to “game” the system, the league will respond-in-kind again to get the results they want.

  • Jukai Posted: Apr.30 at 7:27 pm
    Ciolkstar made a great point: for a BIG, it’s much more useful to go against stronger, more skilled competition so you don’t get used to just powering your way through (ala Greg Oden, BJ Mullen, even Dwight Howard to a point). So Tyler playing against much stronger opponents forces him to be more skillful, and not just get used to overpowering weaker kids. On the other hand…
    Z: You’re being biased. It’s pretty universally recognized that Jennings -probably- hurt his stock in this year’s draft. Had he gone to college and had an even SLIGHTLY dominant season, with how awful everyone was in college this year, that dude could have gone in the top 3-5. Now, it would take a draft combine collapse of some of these guys for that to happen. I’m also not convinced Jennings learned more playing in Europe than he would have in college. Jennings was on a VERY short leash, which is a terrible way for a player to develop. Sure, he probably picked up great fundamentals that he would not have learned in college… but I think he missed out picking some skillsets that you wont learn being the third option off the bench. I’m not saying it was a TERRIBLE mistake… dude got to travel through Italy and make a cool million and not have to go to one college class. That’s awesome. It probably wont stunt his development too much either. But he’ll probably lose a million in the end by the amount of money he’ll get going later into the draft.
    Old School Baller: You’re speaking like you’re on the chair of the NBA. Yes, now the NBA wont be duped into selecting a Kwame Brown as easily. What does that matter if let’s say, Kobe was forced to go through a year in college and then tore his leg apart and never made a dollar in the NBA? That’s a GIGANTIC risk my friend. Every year a future NBA star is forced to play college basketball, is a year he’s losing out on seven to eight figures worth of salary PERMANENTLY. To human beings, that’s not right.

  • Old School Baller Posted: May.1 at 9:06 am
    Jukai, point well taken. I speak more as a fan who does not want to watch guys who either physically or mentally cannot play at the pro level, and then calling it pro basketball. Nor, do I want to pay someone who has never finished law school to represent me in a court of law. If you look at my earlier posts, the expansion of the NBA, not improved skill levels, created demand for HS and college underclassmen. It’s naive to think GM’s will keep investing guaranteed money in HS players when so many never earn the money. The definition of a pro player in my silly mind is a 5 tool guy (handle, shot, defense, rebounding/passing depending on the position, and character/maturity). The NBA has lost die-hard fans like me who no longer want to pay $50+ to see 2 and 3 tool guys. I’d rather pay $10 to see them play in college. Otherwise, to draw fans the NBA will have to resort to gimmicks like handing out free toasters or forcing players to wear suits to games.

  • russbheez Posted: May.1 at 10:42 am
    Great read… Its a global game, global economy, NBA take note.

  • Allenp Posted: May.1 at 11:30 am
    Old School You threw out some names of major superstars. What about Ralph Sampson, he left early and pretty much flamed out due to injury. Or Stanley Roberts, we jsut read about him. Chris Washburn, Len Bias, Michael Ray Richardson.
    All those cats left early if I’m not mistaken. And all of them flamed out. Going to college does not guarantee that you will develop enough to make it in the league. It helps some players, and it doesn’t help others.
    The age limit is designed to benefit the NCAA and prevent NBA teams from spending too much money on young cats who can’t ball. The first reason isn’t the NBA’s responsibility. And the second reason could be taken care of if NBA teams did a better job of scouting.
    There was no need for an age limit.

  • Allenp Posted: May.1 at 11:35 am
    Old School
    Your last point was your best one. Fans got tired of being told to “wait” for high school kids to develop. That’s why the age limit was created.
    The only problem is that is a crock of crap. Nobody was forcing NBA teams to draft high school kids. All of the teams had the option of only drafting polished players. The problem was the even lacking polish, it was obvious that most of these high school cats belonged in the NBA.
    You talk about Dwight needing polish, but he came into the league averaging a double/double. That won’t carry your franchise, but if fans expect rookies to be polished vets, then they have unfair expectations. Most high school players take about 2-3 years to reach their potential. The same is true for most college players. It’s only the rare few who are able to come in immediately and produce and make their teams competitive.
    Like Jukai said, these kids are being told they can’t do the jobs they’ve trained for all their lives, and then being told to go risk that future career playing for free for somebody who is making billions.
    That’s craptastic.

  • Ben Osborne Posted: May.1 at 11:45 am
    Great discussion on here…

  • Old School Baller Posted: May.1 at 12:34 pm
    Allenp well said. The NBA and the kids are both right. There should not be an age limit, nor should the NBA continue to allow 2 and 3 tool guys to continue to destroy the quality of the NBA. Contrary to your belief, with the expansion of the NBA, teams are forced to draft “apprentices” just to fill up rosters. It’s the expansion that’s killed the league, not the kids. Just like the restaurant business or electronics (Circuit City for instance), if you expand too rapidly and sacrifice quality and service, you will go out of business. But I’m gon’ keep it 100 fam, the popularity of the NBA would not be what it is without the NCAA. In the late 70′s, the NBA was floundering . . . a niche franchise. Then Bird and Magic competed head-to-head in the NCAA finals, played the game at a level never before seen and captured a nation . . . including me. The nation’s interest in collegiate basketball blew up. Soon there were more college games on TV. Bird, Magic, Sleepy Floyd, Darryl Griffith, McCray brothers, Hawkeye Whitney, Clyde “The Glide” Austin, Phil Ford, etc. brought us fond memories on Saturdays and Sundays. We wore a knee brace like Jordan (though I didn’t have knee problems), and we tried to dunk like Bias by pulling down the rim after we jammed. We then followed their careers into the NBA, rooted for their teams, bought their sneakers and their jerseys, and mourned their injuries and retirement. Not to call anybody out, but why should I care if Darius Miles’ career doesn’t get back on track? I don’t know him or have a connection to him. As it has sacrificed quality and lost a connection to the fans, the NBA is dying a slow death. AND THE NBA KNOWS THIS! I was around when Circuit City was a one store operation known for customer service in in Richmond, VA too. I’m just the messenger. I usually don’t respond to these posts. And what is my reward? Backtalk. It would be more appropriate to say “Thank you Old School for dropping knowledge on us youngens” and keep it movin’. And that’s real talk.

  • Allenp Posted: May.1 at 2:28 pm
    Old School
    I’m gonna assume those last few sentences were sarcastic…
    The fact that NBA’s success is due to in part to the NCAA is indisputable.
    But, the fact that the NCAA is a parasitic organization feeding on young people, particularly young black males, is also indisputable.
    I can’t argue with you that expansion allowed a dilution of talent. But that issue is separate from the high school issue. Most of the expansion of the league happened well before drafting high school players became the norm. Besides, the talent pool of people who want to play in the NBA is massive, if NBA GMs only wanted to draft players who were a certain age, there are hundreds of people to choose from who are not in the NBA.
    What you are unwilling to admit, at least from my vantage point, is that the age limit was designed to protect the business model of the NBA and NCAA and that’s it.
    It’s sole redeeming quality is protecting the bottom line of those two entities. Now, since the NBA is a business, protecting it’s bottom line makes sense and is perfectly legal as long as they don’t run afoul of any laws. But, let’s not pretend, as the NBA and NCAA have done, that this new rule is really to “benefit” the players. It’s not.
    In now way does this truly benefit players. The small benefit of goign to college is offset by the massive injury risk, or just risk of declining value due to more exposure. From a purely business standpoint, these kids, or future corporations, would benefit more from somebody buying into them early at a high price before their stock can plummet.
    So, if you support the move because you think it means better talent on the floor, cool. If you support it because it’s the best thing for the league, cool as well.
    But, the NBA hasn’t had the balls to say that. They’ve tried to pretend that this is all about the kids, and that sort of hypocrisy is ridiculous.

  • STATUS Posted: May.3 at 9:42 pm
    OldSchool, you are so full of it and blind to the reality of the situation. You and your fanhood are stuck in an era that is OVER and, for better or worse, is NEVER EVER coming back. You plainly refuse to accept this and grow and mature with the times, in your own right. While you made a few valid points about the development of SOME players, you missed the point entirely, when it comes to this article and the topic at hand.
    It’s people like you and that type of thinking which has made the gap between generations an almost insurmountable one, in some cases. Your blind adherance to a way of doing things, which has long become absolete, then villiainizing the younger genrations simply because they chose to do things differently than YOU. Just because you’re old enough to have seen Magic play in college doesn’t make your opinion or veiwpoint any more relevant. If you have such a huge problem with the way the NBA is or the way it does business, then please allow me to be the 1st on this message board to invite you not to watch! IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT, THEN DON’T WATCH OR READ ABOUT THE N.B.A.!!! I promise you, that my favorite sports league will be just fine without you… INGRATE!

  • Will Ram Posted: May.5 at 5:41 pm
    I agree 110 percent on the point C made about Tony Parker. If he can compete at that next level, as opposed to encountering difficulty in the current sytem he’s in, why not go for it? Insightful piece I found about this issue, http://zsmart.blogspot.com/2009/04/eurobound.html

  • Brian Posted: Jun.28 at 6:38 am
    Good Choice , but it would be even better if he went to a international school in spain such as International Baluccuate , or basically a international program in Europe close to his new club and be there for two years , the education in Europe is guaranteed one of the best.

  • vegeta Posted: Mar.19 at 1:11 pm
    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5008825

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