Quantcast
Thursday, August 27th, 2009 at 9:00 am  |  103 responses

David Lee: Training Camp Holdout?

by Marcel Mutoni

Things are getting testy in New York between the Knicks and one of their most talented (and popular) players. According to David Lee’s agent, the forward may not show up to training camp if the two sides haven’t reached a deal by then.

The Knicks have made it abundantly clear that everything they do is geared towards next summer, and according to Lee’s camp, the team has yet to make a firm offer to the restricted free agent. David ain’t having it, apparently.

The NY Post reports:

The agent for David Lee would not rule out the possibility of his client being an unsigned contract holdout when Knicks training camp opens Sept. 28. In the NBA, it is almost unheard-of for players of Lee’s stature to be camp holdouts.

“I certainly hope not, but you have to have an agreement,” agent Mark Bartelstein told The Post yesterday. “I never thought we’d be this far without a deal. It comes down to making a deal. You have to ask [team president] Donnie [Walsh]. All we’ve agreed is if we can’t do a sign-and-trade, we will work out a reasonable one-year deal,” Bartelstein said.

One of the reasons seemingly everyone in New York was so happy about Donnie Walsh taking over for Isiah Thomas, is his reputation as a man able to calmly put out fires such as this one.

Now, Donnie has about a month to show just how good he is.

  • Add a Comment
  • Share
  • RSS

Tags: , , ,

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com Blinguo

    This plus a half dozen other holdouts will be over and done with by the time the Crabtree saga ends over in that No Fun League. Sorry Niners.

  • http://www.hibachi20.blogspot.com Hursty

    Is David Lee ‘actually’ that talented? I’m not being a prick here, I’m honestly curious. I thought he did a lot of running around and hustling for rebounds and putbacks and lay-ups.

  • http://www.slamonline.com James the balla

    Yeah he is Hursty. I mean. He was right under Dwight for Double Double’s last year. Pretty impressive. The Knicks are irrelevant!!

  • http://www.mynameinblue.blogspot.com Hisham

    Hursty: the way you understate it still makes him sound like a pretty good player to me. We’re not talking megastar, but definitely possible 1 or 2 time allstar IMO. Has OK midrange game, knack for offensive rebounds, knows how to finish, runs the lanes well, defends well, OK shotblocker, potential 18 and 10 guy.

  • http://www.mynameinblue.blogspot.com Hisham

    plus, as James the Balla pointed out: double double machine

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com Blinguo

    Well not keeping David Lee, the People’s Champ around, would make them fall quickly into irrelevancy and incite hate the GM/Walsh movements by the fans the way they did Hate the Coach, w/ Isaiah.
    -
    Didn’t read the awesome Manhattan Project David Lee article this past season in SLAM Hurst?

  • http://www.hibachi20.blogspot.com Hursty

    I guess not Blinguo.
    @Hisham and James – thankyou.
    It is hard to define talent though. It doesn’t necessarily take ‘talent’ to jump high etc, or be tall to get rebounds. But it is a SKILL to put yourself in a position to reach them, or finding passing lanes and box out opportunites.
    Just quietly, I would like to say that Jordan killed the ‘art’ of boxing out. He.. almost never, ever did it haha.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    I’ve been through this already w/my beloved Chicago Bulls and Ben Gordon. A deal will get done at the 25th hour, Lee is going to have a monster season, Walsh will then realize what he has and try and re-sign him, David Lee is going say thanks, but no thanks and drive away from the Knicks office, top down w/Jadakiss’ mixtape blasting thru the speakers…. Kiss My Ass!!

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    If Lee was that talented, why didn’t anybody step up to the plate to make him an offer? Because his defense is horrendous, he’s not a shotblocking presence and he can not create his own offense. The numbers he posted last year were inflated because of small ball (more possessions, more shots, more rebounds) and the fact that he was the only willing rebounder on that team. You’d put Gortat at the 5 for the Knicks and that’s a double double every game.

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    Even if we get lebron james (which we won’t) we still need someone like david lee on the team , if they let every good player walk who the hell is gonna help (insert mega 2010 free agent) win ball games? This is retarded. David lee was one offensive put back a game away from being an 18 point 13 rebound guy, is that really not worth 9 mil a year these days?

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    Yeah z he didn’t put up 12 points and almost 11 rebounds a game a couple of seasons ago or anything when he was playng for isiah thomas. No small ball there chief, so I guess its impossible to think that he just improved enough to put up 17 and 11.

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    And at 26 I think he still has room to get better.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com Blinguo

    What Z just described as weaknesses was also in the best 4 to play alongside Shaq, Udonis Haslem. Arguably better than Horace Grant + Shaq, and Amare + Shaq, can’t argue with the end result. Cleveland wishes they had David Lee alongside old man Diesel. He’s like Joe Smith to the 5th power.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Then why didn’t they make him an offer instead of re-upping Andy V? The fact that nobody stepped up is very telling. O-ver-ra-ted. Big men that can’t D up have to be gifted offensively to make up for it. He’s neither.

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    David lee puts up the numbers that andy v and joe smith combined to produce last season.

  • http://slamonline.com/ niQ

    I don’t understand why other teams didn’t try to pick him up. I mean, the OKC should be spending ever last cent on Lee.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Bryan… and yet, there’s no market for him. Numbers are not everything. Ricky Davis and Zach Randolph made careers (and millions) out of empty numbers that don’t affect the outcome of games. What do these 3 players have in common? They give back everything they get on the defensive end.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    niQ, to have green and lee as your two main post defenders would be disastrous. with kd at the 3, that would be the weakest (physcically) froncourt in the L.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I wonder when the backlash will start for David Lee’s selfishness. Lol.
    Honestly, Z is making points I agree with. David Lee and his agent have an inflated view of his talent. He has no post moves, can’t shoot jumpers, is soft on defense and is foul prone.
    True, he’s active, athletic and a good teammate, but let’s be honest here. He’s a younger, more athletic version of Andy V without the defense or toughness.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    BTW, the fact that he’s thinking about holding out while Nate is not makes him look bad. Their contractual situation is identical.

  • http://www.another48minutes.blogspot.com Gerard Himself

    I wish the Nets would go after him. I understand it doesn’t work that way, but still…. (I know I know, irrelevant post, but then again, 80% of the posts in the comment section usually are)

  • B

    David lee makes Joe Smith look like Malcolm X

  • http://www.another48minutes.blogspot.com Gerard Himself

    then again, the comments put a smile on your face most of the time, so I’m not sure what I’m trying to say here.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com Blinguo

    I understand the no D sentiment, but don’t try to justify Andy’s signing considering that is a debacle of overspending, irregardless of skillset and role. Nor is he heralded for blocked shots or lock down defense either but getting in the way to the point of infuriating other players. And Cleveland has great team defense even with smaller players on the floor at most all times, but can get exposed for it as shown in the playoffs. (No D always bad, granted why I think Biedrins for Amar’e would have been such a bad, backwards move for the Warriors while others were just thinking Don Nelson STAT dunks!!!!)

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    Andy v has toughness? I mean I know the dude took a shot to the balls but he’s kind of a p*ssy,

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com Blinguo

    Portland made an early big offer but really the salary cap lowering and 2010 push may be reasons why no teams offer anything to anyone anymore if they’re not considered the top 4-5-6 contenders in the league. Plus D’Antoni probably stunts defensive growth for all players (quite hazardous to young players under his system). Not even as much as the Camby – you do everything Denver teams.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Blinguo
    I agree with you on Andy’s deal, although the fact that the last year is only partially guaranteed, if I’m not mistaken, makes it more palatable.
    My point was that David is roughly on part with Andy as a player. And he wants more money than Andy got.
    Bryan
    Varejo has some toughness. He ain’t Charles Oakley, but he’s not David Lee either.

  • dial up

    Varejio has no toughness, stop it. Just cuz you gotta poster of him on your wall, doesnt mean he’s in any way tough. He’s nowhere near as good as lee.

  • das knicks fan

    Z is absolutely on the money. David Lee would be a strong addition as a 6th man to many teams – but not at the price his agent is likely asking for. He’s a poor defensive player with no inside presence.

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    I can’t believe you really think andy v is as good as david lee, maybe I just have my blue and orange tinted glasses on , but damn. Andy v REALLY sucks.

  • http://www.infamousklav.blogspot.com Klav

    Odom is way better than both, is getting payed less, and should be starting. Lee & Varejao overrated for their respective salaries (in Lee’s case, “desired salary”).

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Good point Klav.
    Bryan, David Lee is more athletic than Varejo, but other than that, I don’t see it. I really don’t. He hustles on a team where very few people hustle. That makes him look better I think.
    He has no offensive moves. He still can’t hit that elbow jumper. A couple seasons ago, he led his team in getting his shot blocked. He doesn’t block shocks.
    I like David Lee, but is he $10-$12 million player? HELL NO. Come on now. That’s crazy talk.

  • UnRel

    I like david lee.. solid fantasy player.. he does hustle and gobble up boards and all that.. i wouldn’t call him overrated.. but he’s undersized and his stats is an illusion under that system and on that team..

    he’s JV.. he’d be a back up on most elite teams..

  • http://www.shoenut.blogspot.com ShoeNut

    Hold out? Come on man, who does David Lee think he is? He should be happy to even have a job in the NBA. He is average in all aspects of the game. He needs to deflate his big ass head and just shut up and play.

  • http://www.infamousklav.blogspot.com Klav

    truthfully, Lee deserves to come off the bench. he’s the perfect energy/hustle guy on your 2nd squad. the only reason he feels he deserves this money is because of his stats. im sure there are more 4s in the league “if given” his amount of minutes under D’Antoni’s system would get the same #’s if not better. AND im sure some of them are better defenders, THUS justifying a $10 mil annual income, then again…its the Knicks. who really wants to play for them with their management?

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    1- Andy V signed 38.5 mil for 5 years in guaranteed money. I think that’s reasonable and nowhere close to the 10-12 mil David Lee is seeking.
    2- Andy V is battle-tested (tons of playoff games under his belt) and he’s a very good position defender. He makes some of the best weakside rotations in the L. Lee doesn’t know what rotations are.
    3- The only above-average skill that Lee possesses is rebounding the ball. That’s it. There is nothing else about his game that is remarkable. He wouldn’t start on any contending team right now at the 4. Not a single one.

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    Allen, I don’t andy v could average a double double anywhere in the league. I honestly feel that way and I think Lee hits that elbow jumper a little more than you’re giving him credit for.

  • chingy

    Really? David Lee couldn’t start for the Spurs alongside Timmy D?

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    I bet lee would start over varajao in clevland and I bet he would start in orlando. You’re talking out of your ass right now.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Not in front of McDyess, no.

  • http://www.infamousklav.blogspot.com Klav

    Dice is a better starter alongside Timmy than Lee could be. Like everybody else (including myself) has said, he would be a better backup 4.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Andy V gives you 7-8 rebs a game on a team that GOES after boards. In 2008 he averaged 8 a game coming off the bench with a frontcourt of dedicated rebounders (Z, Ben, Bron). Give him 35 mins a game on a team that creates a lot of possessions due to their style of play? Yeah a 9 and 8 guy in Cleveland would likely rack up double doubles every game.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Just want to point out that I’m not that big of a fan of Andy V and he makes me swear regularly when I watch Cleveland games. But I’d rather have him than David ‘empty stats, no defense’ Lee.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Bryan
    I think Z point out the facts on Varejo. Dude is smart. He knows how to find open spots, and he hits his jumper with more consistency than Lee.
    In fact, if Lee hit that jumper more regularly, I would have much more respect for what he brings to the table. He would still need to improve on defense, but with a reliable jumper, he’s a starter on a contender easily.

  • http://lastknickstanding.blogspot.com Bryan

    I feel like I’ve said this before but that’s ok. David lee averaged a double double on a knicks team that did not play the style you speak of. 11 points and 10 and half rebounds, something andy v never has, david lee has multiple 20 rebound games and has scored over 30 on a couple of occasions. What makes anyone think that verajao could do that at all? Please tell me what games you’re watching where he has shown that ability. Anyone can sit here and say ‘ if so and so played there instead of so so he would be way better’ but that’s bull you have no idea. When has he proven capabale ? The difference is one has proven himself capable of being a double double guy and one hasn’t.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Z Posted: Aug.27 at 1:33 pm
    Give him 35 mins a game on a team that creates a lot of possessions due to their style of play? Yeah a 9 and 8 guy in Cleveland would likely rack up double doubles every game.
    —-
    My point is not that Andy V is a better scorer than Lee. He’s not. My point is that he is a better PLAYER than Lee. He defends his position very well and has a way higher basketball IQ as far as offensive positioning and defensive rotations. Let’s put it this way: Donnie calls Danny about swapping Lee for Andy V. Danny hangs up the phone. OKC, Sac, Dal, Mem all approached Andy V when he became a FA. Who’s out there looking at David Lee? He’s not valued around the league, especially at those figures. Like Nate (who’s in the exact same situation), he gives you numbers but takes as much off the table.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Bryan
    Those two seasons David Lee put up 11 and 10, the knicks were averaged 100 and 104 points per game. He played the fifth and fourth most minutes per game both of those years. With Mike D, the team averaged 106 points per game, but Lee’s minutes and touches increased.
    Clearly, the style of play used under Isiah was still fast paced.
    I have to use the same logic for David Lee that I used for Allen Iverson. If nobody wants to pay you what you want, maybe you’re just not worth it.

  • http://fdjsklf.com Jukai

    I guess it’s because David Lee is white that people are saying he can’t jump but he knows ‘positioning’ and has ‘high basketball IQ’
    David Lee is incredibly athletic and jumps very high, that’s how he gets those rebounds.

  • Shem

    Haha, you guys are arguing varejao being better then lee. I’m pretty sure lee is the #1 option on the knicks while varejao is surrounded by THE lebron james and 3 great shooters (2 now that Z is gone) yes varejao is a better rebounder (Not by much) and a better defender but if the cavs could choose 1 for the same price would they get full of potential active athletic running the floor big man lee or one dimensional varejao? Teams aren’t interested in lee right now because he is greedy

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Who said he wasn’t athletic?
    I know it wasn’t me. Dude won the slam dunk contest in high school. His two best attributes are his athleticism and his motor.

  • http://fdjsklf.com Jukai

    I know you didn’t Allen. Not pointing the finger at you.

  • http://fdjsklf.com Jukai

    You know, my question is, what makes Lee a bad defender? He’s got the hops, he’s got mobility, he seems to have a decent sense of timing… is he physically weak? He doesn’t seem terribly weak. Does he have limited basketball IQ? He boxes out well, so it should translate to knowing when to move laterally. Does his lack of height really hurt him?
    I don’t get it. Dude gets burned quite a bit, but he really shouldn’t, considering his attributes.

  • Shem

    David lee is better then varejao. Lee is the #1 option on the knicks varejao is the 5th on the cavs with the lebron james and 3 shooters (now 2 since Z is gone). Varejao may be a better defender, but they are the same when it comes to rebounding. If the cavs could choose 1 guy for the same price would they take the athletic, young, full of potential big man that runs the floor or 1 dimensional varejao. Don’t get ridiculous now.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jukai
    Couldn’t we apply that same logic to Dirk and Steve Nash.
    Or Lebron and Melo, particularly Melo.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Shem
    David Lee is not the number one option on the Knicks.
    Besides, just because David Lee is ranked higher on his team doesn’t make him better. It just makes his team crappy.

  • Shem

    Sorry about the same comment, i thought it didnt go through but lee isnt that bad, he has the best basketball iq among centers in my opinion he has hops people just look at him as a bad defender because hes on the knicks.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    For the record, the number one option on the Knicks right now is Al Harrington. Although, with D’Antoni’s system, there really is no number one option besides the point guard. Really, what it comes down to is a bunch of guys jacking up treys and fast breaking, or going one-on-one on the perimeter.

  • Shem

    David lee is for sure the #1 scoring option on the knicks. Nate averages 1 more points with 44% shooting and harrington averages 4 more points with 44% shooting. Lee averages 16 points on 55% shooting. The numbers don’t lie per shots david lee is the #1 scoring option. I hope I have no arguements about varejao being 5th

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Shem
    Explain your logic on number one option, cause I’m not getting it.
    The Knicks do not run their offense through Lee. He doesn’t create shots for himself or others.
    Thus, he ain’t the number one option.

  • Shem

    The knicks generate their offense through turnovers and fastbreak opportunities the major recipients are harrington and robinson but they do not usually convert their opportunities when lee gets the ball he scores. Every one may have their own opinions on the better player but it comes down to this, do you think the knicks would win more games with varejao starting at center or lee.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    You think the Cavs would win more games with Lee or Varejo?
    And before you answer, remember who guards the best post player for the Cavs.

  • rog123

    I’ve never seen a whole knicks game with lee on the roster but I would say that andy v is a better pf than lee. Lee is not a center. Being a big man is about defending, rebounding and changing shots, unless u avg. 20 pts a game. Andy v changes shots because he draws charges, lee doesn’t appear to be a shotblocker so I would say andy is better. I do know however, that lee is very athletic, as is andy. Anyone remember his tip in slam a ccouple yrs ago? Youtube

  • http://www.manutd.com Zaal

    Jukai: nobody in this discussion said that Lee wasn’t athletic. In fact, I was arguing that he DIDN’t have a very high basketball IQ. / Shem, if no play has ever been ran for you. You’re not an option offensively. That’s like saying that Marion was an option in the Suns’ offense because he got 20 a game. He got 20 a game off of scraps.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com Moose

    Lee is actually very athletic. Just because he, uhm, appears to be not very athletic doesn’t mean that he isn’t. Remember when he won the Mickey D’s Slam Dunk championship a while back?

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    ^^^ Against James “FLIGHT” White, no less?

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    Varejao is better defensively, because he TRIES to be, but David Lee is a much better rebounder, he’s more athletic, and I would say he’s better in most offenses than Andy. Carlito Cool is a great role player and a solid defender to have, so the Cavs made the right decision by choosing him over Lee (if there was ever any question of it, and minus the overpaid contract). But I’m pretty sure had they not signed Shaq, David Lee would have been strongly considered as a postman for LeBron.

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    If David Lee holds out in training camp, can anyone else make him an offer? What if he gets a fairly slack offer elsewhere – all the Knicks have to do is match it, right?
    This is a case of decent/capable qaulity players slipping through the cracks as the financial squeeze is placed on teams coming through the off season.
    It’s been the same for Allen Iverson and Ramon Sessions amongst others.
    I don’t think David Lee is doing himself any favours. He should just walk into Donny’s office every morning and request they sort out a fair price there and then. Let the man get to work.

  • http://slamonline BossTerry

    Lee,Boozer,Ansewer– times running out!

  • Shem

    you guys seem to forget lee averaged 11.7 boards and 16 pts while andy averaged just 7 and 8, neither of them averaged a block so no andy doesnt average many blocks either. Anderson varejao also played awful against rashard lewis in the playoffs and averaged 6 and 6. If lee was the 5th scoring option on the team like varejao is and was surrounded by moe bron and delonte im sure he d have ridiculously good stats.

  • rog123

    The cavs do not play an uptempo game, besides lebron going coast to coast, so andys stats are not going to be as good as lees

  • chintao

    @ Allenp Posted: Aug.27 at 5:25 pm ==> I respectfully disagree with your indictment of ‘Melo. The ‘Melo you described was the OLD model. Last year’s version played reasonably good “D” in the games I watched (especially during the playoffs).

  • http://slamonline BossTerry

    all this discussion about whos good and whos not. Let us not forget that every NBA player is “good” to a certain point, they didnt get their high paying jobs because of good grades.. Some are just more talented then others..

  • Shem

    haha of course every nba player is good, im sure that darko milicic could post up anyone that isnt in the nba with ease

  • http://nationofmillions.ca ciolkstar

    Davis Lee is a much better fantasy player than real life player. I mean, he’s been an outstanding role player, especially in that system. But he’s probably a better accumulator of stats than “game changing talent. Personally, I’m a fan. But $10-12 mill per is too much. I’d say four years for like 8 each on average would be the ceiling. But if I’m the Knicks I’d rather give some of that dough to Wilson Chandler, especially if Bron doesn’t come to the Big Apple.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com Blinguo

    Agree Melo made waves in the hey lets try some defense G.Karl season. Not just a product of chemistry and Martin and Andersen behind him. Besides uh, being too friendly with Kobe instead of building upon their under the boards battles. That assessment about why not good defense with skillset and physical tools will go back to Amar’e, the main model of that argument.

  • http://fdjsklf.com Jukai

    Z: My comment was to Hursty and and Hisham. Jeez, if you didn’t say it, why are you getting so defensive? I agree with you and disagree with Shem vastly: David Lee’s basketball IQ is actually QUITE low.
    Allenp: No way dude. Nash and Dirk can’t jump anywhere near as high, don’t have half the lateral speed that Lee has. It’s not the same argument. One can say that Nash and Dirk, while athletic in their own ways (Nash more than Dirk), don’t really have the ability to play defense. Nash does not have very good lateral movement going backwards, he often gets tripped up, that’s not because he can’t see his defender, but a combination of inadequate backwards lateral movement and a back issues which prevents him from getting down as much as he needs. Nash also has great hang time but can’t jump high enough to block shots as well as other point guards.
    Dirk simply isn’t strong enough.
    Melo is a much better defender than Lee, and Lebron is actually an above average man-to-man defender and an insanely good help defender so I don’t really know why you added Lebron into that argument.
    In essence, I felt your response was rather poor. Sure, Dirk and Nash can be better defenders, Melo as well, but Lee could be a LOCKDOWN defender, ESPECIALLY considering how much “scrap” and “hustle” he has. I put the blame mostly on his coaches, but a lot on Lee.

  • http://fdjsklf.com Jukai

    Blinguo came up with a good one: Amare is a good comparison to David Lee. Both have incredible physical talents (ie tall with great mobility, great leapers, strong enough) but for some reason make dumb decisions and often get in foul trouble when defending.

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com Blinguo

    He shouldn’t have to be paid outstandingly, agree, agent should mediate some of that and eventually convince to take what you can get now abound this market at a lower # of years-better next one, but he might be just in the wrong place at the wrong time after the Jeffries/Jerome James/Curry signings, while not crippling like A.Houston – now we have Problems, still make them unwilling to open up maybe even at market value? But more suitors to compete would help establish that. We don’t know the non-reported deals or inquiries. Going off one offer, as if that was the only one. Agents don’t have to report everything, nor would they want to if they’re getting less than they’re expecting or trying for their clients.

  • http://www.mynameinblue.blogspot.com Hisham

    Jukai I never said anything about him being unathletic. The guy jumps out the gym, we all know that.

  • Jeter

    If they dont signDavid Lee, then who would be there decent enough to be called an NBA player? Wilson Chandler is ok, but then, who else? Walsh better have a behind-the-scenes agreement with a big name free agent already bbec the way he is handling this summer, isnt really promisng

  • http://nbacheapseats.blogspot.com Chendaddy

    Yet another nail in the coffin for the LeBron-to-New-York-in-2010 hype. Obviously I’m not as smart or experienced as Donnie Walsh, but from where I’m sitting, it looks like the New York Knicks will be starting 2010 with a bunch of minimum wage veterans, Eddy Curry, Jared Jeffries, Danilo Gallinari, and a $25 million mix of B-rate stars. Not present: LeBron, D-Wade, Chris Bosh.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jukai
    Is Dirk as strong as Chris Bosh? How about Kevin Garnett? Is he smaller than them? What about Lamarcus Aldridge?
    Granted, Dirk isn’t a good leaper and neither is Nash. But, their main problems on defense are a lack of effort and a lack of proper fundamentals. I don’t see any real physical reason why either of them should be so poor on defense. Same thing with Allen Iverson. In my opinion it’s strictly a technique and effort issue with them, same thing with Lee and Amare.

  • http://slamonline.com breeze

    well i feel that nash and dirk has two left fet when it comes to defense..and when you spend somuch time solely on your offense assault that sometimes happens..i beleive iverson is a great off the ball defender in which is a part of his offesne because it turns into a straight fast break as soon as the steal is made.

  • http://fdjsklf.com Jukai

    Allenp: Yes. Yes Dirk is. Allen, do you watch the NBA, haha? He can’t post up small forwards. That’s a strength problem right there, dude.
    Once again, there are fundamental problems with Nash and Dirk (and Allen Iverson). But the three of them could never be LOCKDOWN defenders, or GREAT help defenders. Never, even if they started out anew. David Lee and Amare could be, they have all the physical tools to be.
    Also, I wouldn’t really pair Allen Iverson in with Nash and Dirk. Dude can’t really man up, but he uses his court vision and hands to kill the passing lanes.

  • http://double-technical.blogspot.com Zee!

    This plus a half dozen other holdouts will be over and done with by the time the Crabtree saga ends over in that No Fun League. Sorry Niners.

    ^^^^^
    Real talk, this fool Crabtree is tripping seriously out here in the bay. He may not sign until the 3rd or 4th game in.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jukai
    I think Iverson is only slightly better than both of those players on defense and that’s from watching him attempt to play defense in Detroit last year.
    I think strength is the easiest thing to rectify when you have world class weight trainers at your disposal, so I just can’t give them a pass on that. I’m stuck with fundamentals and effort.

  • http://fdjsklf.com Jukai

    Allen: fair enough, but will you acknowledge that Amare and Lee don’t need any conditioning and have all the tools given to them right now, while Iverson and Nash and Dirk would have to work on things strength wise and conditioning wise to be great defenders?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Conditioning, no. All three are well conditioned.
    I think they could improve as far as strength, but I don’t know if that’s completely necessary.
    John Stockton, Joe Dumars, Scottie Pippen, Gary Payton, Bruce Bowen. None of those players was exceptionally strong. As far as big men, KG is no behemoth, and neither is Tim Duncan.
    It’s a fundamentals and effort thing. Honestly, all those herky jerky moves Nash, Iverson and Dirk do on offense require core strength, the same sort of strenth that helps on defense.

  • http://www.anwilson.blogspot.com rainman10

    Why is there seriously a debate on Verajao vs. Lee? Lee is a better scorer, better with the ball in his hands, better rebounder at either end, and actually shows potential to get better. Lee has improved his game immensely since he entered the league, while Varejao hasn’t gotten too much better except his knowledge of the way the league works in terms of drawing fouls and charges, and fitting in with the Lebron offense.

  • http://fdjsklf.com Jukai

    … all of them were very strong… You don’t think Stockton was strong? Dude was built like one of those dwarf things.
    You DO need strength to defend. That’s ridiculous. Tim Duncan has great core strength. Garnett isn’t as strong btu Garnett is more valuable has a help defender (ie leaping, timing) than he is a one on one defender.
    There are separate muscles which help on offense and defense. That’s undeniably true.
    I also meant conditioning such as aerobic exercises and leaping drills.
    But forget it, this is getting nowhere. Telling me Pippen and Stockton weren’t exceptionally strong, man…

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jukai
    You are off base regarding Garnett, and you are off-base in general.
    I said exceptionally strong. And, I disagree with you on whether any of the players i named were exceptionally strong. We disagree.
    Like I said, getting stronger means lifting weights. If you refuse to do that, i’m not going to give you a pass.
    I think you are greatly underestimating the amount of strength that all three of those players possess. It takes strength to play offense. You are saying “well it’s a different kind of strength.”
    If you say so.
    Fundamentals and effort. That’s the problem.

  • zach smart

    He may be asking for too much in this economic climate, giving that he’s more of a hustle, inhale rebounds brand of player. However, you can see how he’s feeling disrespected with all the Knicks players that have stolen money (Jeffries, Jared stands out) and have been given titanic contracts when him and Nate have essentially been the cornerstone…

    Plus he’s won over a disgruntled fanbase and become the face of the program for the past three seasons

  • http://www.anwilson.blogspot.com rainman10

    It is the evolution of the NBA that has effected who we consider good defenders. The rule changes and the way the game is reffed has changed the way players play defense. Also, superstars are elevated even more by these rules and refs. How else can Lebron be runner up for defensive player of the year? What does that award even mean. I have no problem with Howard winning it, and Kobe and Wade are good defenders. But to tell me that Lebron’s fast break blocks from behind and a couple interceptions in the passing lanes are so much more valuable than a Nash or Battier charge taken? Ya Nash is physically weaker and a little smaller than most guys he goes up against, including some lightning quick 22 yr olds, so his weaknesses are exposed a bit on defense sometimes, I do respect him because he plays pretty physical and bodies up pretty well. Sometimes it isn’t fundamentals and effort, sometimes it is the boundaries within which the game is played.

  • http://fdjsklf.com Jukai

    Allen: Dirk, Nash, and Iverson aren’t strong bro… they could probably beat you and me in an arm wrestling contest, but against their peers, they ain’t got much.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    Knicks should have kept Steve Francis if they knew Steph was going to be on lockdown…

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    Jukai, very very off-base. 1) Dirk couldn’t post 3s because he had no post game. He’s stronger than Bosh, who is able to post up 3s and 4s. It was a skill thing. 2) Dirk, AI and Nash could be excellent defenders with focus, dedication, fundamentals and effort. Andy V, who was discussed earlier, is an excellent help defender because he cares and he’s aware of rotations. 3) You don’t need strength to be able to defend, it’s a + but not a requirement. Thabo Sefolosha is a very solid defender. There are countless lil pg’s out there who are PESTS on the defensive end. The lateral quickness with Nash is kinda BS. He has that quickness with the ball, he could have it without the ball. 4) What I’m saying is: Nash, Dirk and AI do not care about defense. They are all exceptionally coordinated and adept at D’ing up.

  • Shem

    jukai and allen p are very off, rainman and Z know basketball. This isnt even a discussion david lee is a better player the only thing andy v has on him is taking charges. Also, to all the nash haters nash takes the most charges among pgs in the league. Andrea Bargnani who is a solid defender but is not that strong and cannot jump that high, it is about commitment.. mugsey bogues who was i think 5’5 could get posted by anyone and would have to be at the peak of his jump to barely contest shots. He made it work and AI and Dirk and Nash do not. Only disagreement with Z is that Dirk a very solid post game. I’ve seen that off ballance jumper with his left foot in the air and the right just off the ground too many times. He follows it up with the up and under.. just ask kenyon martin

  • http://dfsjklf.com Jukai

    Z:
    1) Bosh is way stronger than Dirk. Fail. I can post up dudes half my size all day long. Enough of that.
    2) They all could be above average defenders with focus, dedication, fundamentals, and effort. I doubt they could be Duncan/Pippen/Payton level great without that toughness
    3) Thabo’s stronger than Al and Nash, c’mon now. He’s also 6’7 with a pterodactyl wing-span who plays shooting guard. When you’re bigger and longer than most people in your position with the foot speed to keep up with them, that ALSO tends to help. Also, try dashing quickly left then quickly right running forward. Now try it going backwards. It’s much harder. A lot of that is balance. But some of that is muscle that isn’t used as much. It’s not BS, bro.
    4) No one doesn’t care about defense… they just don’t dedicate enough time in it to be great defenders. Even still, David Lee and Amare Stoudemire SHOULD be premier defenders. No one looks at Nash or Dirk or Iverson and says they should be lockdown peeps. No one.
    Also, Muggsy was an atrocious defender who was mostly on teams with bigs throughout his career. Don’t throw me that one, now.

  • http://www.manutd.com Z

    We’ll just end it there because we’re running in circles. 1) Dirk has 2 inches and 20 pounds on Bosh. DUDE IS 7′ 250! Don’t give me that strength argument. He didn’t have to the tools to post up dudes in that series against G-State and now ppl are not trying him anymore with small 3s because HE LEARNED TO POST. Post game is not only about strength, you have to know how to post up. For a guy that watches Cavs games, you should know that D-West can post up pretty much any SG in the league. 2) Why not?! Since when Duncan is that much more athletic than Dirk? 10 pounds make THAT much of a difference? Bruce Bowen is as average as it gets in terms of height weight and athleticism yet he made a career on the defensive end. 3) Why are you comparing Thabo to AI and not Dirk? Thabo is not bigger and stonger than most 2s. 6’6-6’7 – 210-220 is what I expect for most wings. 4) Lee and STAT are poor defenders. AI, Dirk and Nash too. None of them get a pass. Why are we talking about Mugsy?

  • http://www.realcavsfans.com Anton

    I bet his wife Courtney is furious.

  • ConeyIslander

    As a knick fan I can predict what’s gonna happen at this point. David Lee is gonna end up traded and become an allstar where ever he ends up! I’ll wish him the best in advance…FML

  • http://www.melvinblog.com Melvin

    Please take Lee out of New York…

  • VA

    he is just purely a rebounder. he only gets pts when someone dishes it to him. he is a great player if u give less then $10 million. he wants +$10 million. I would just save that money up for bosh.

Advertisement