Jason Kidd Now 2nd All-Time in Assists

Good for Ason. it’s always fun to see a HOF lock acheive such a significant milestone. In my book, Kidd is the 2nd best PG all-time after Magic. Stockton has the record, but that’s as much a product of 1)Sloan’s system, and 2)his amazing durability. Magic was/is clearly the best-& has 5 rings 2 prove it.

Teddy-the-Bear:
Your argument for Pip being a great defender (which he most definitely was) based on steals is ludicrous. Scottie Pippen basically was asked to lock up the opposition’s best player every night. More often than not, he was successful. He did this not because he “overplayed the passing lanes,”(which he occasionally did) but because he was a fcuking nuisance. He contested every single shot. He didn’t let the other guy post him up. He was up in the other dude’s nuts. And he had a freakish wingspan for a guy his size. (And of course he hand-checked like crazy). All in all, he played LOCK-DOWN D. Stockton? Not so much. He got steals because, as you put it, he overplayed the passing lanes. But PGs like Payton and Kevin Johnson abused him on the regular.

Holiday:
Stockton is arguably a better PG than Kidd. You can easily make that argument, even though I may disagree. But 1) He was NOT a great defensive player. That’s just delusional. and 2) Please explain this statement: “his Basketball IQ was way beyond JKidds!” What the heck does that mean?

tavoris:
“Kidd is the 2nd best PG all-time after Magic.”

Oscar Robertson would like a word. And he’s kinda pissed.

damn we miss captain kidd up in nj

Teddy:
An elite scorer will, more often than not, get his. This is true. But when a good defender, someone like, say, Shane Battier, defends Kobe, you can tell that Kobe will have to work more than usual to get his points. And maybe, just maybe, he can be harassed into a poor shooting night.

But with a guy who is a defensive liability, like John Stockton or Allen Iverson (my favorite player btw), the opposing team says: “There…let’s attack THAT guy. HE’S the guy we can exploit.”
Jason Kidd has never been that guy. John Stockton has ALWAYS been that guy.

And by the way…how did Reggie Miller “expose Michael Jordan’s D”? Is Reggie Miller a great one-on-one player? You chose a bad example to illustrate a point you’re failing to make, because Reggie Miller is basically a spot-up shooter. He never took MJ off the dribble. He never posted MJ up. All he did was hit jumpers. And when he hit them, most of the time he was either open or he was running through screens. So your MJ/Reggie example really doesn’t carry any weight.

@Tariq…Big O was as much a PG as Jerry West was. And neither controlled the whole court like Kidd or Magic.

jason kidd is top 10 ALL TIME in 3 ptrs made, eff ason. most underrated player of this era, he is one of best ever

tavoris:
Oscar Robertson wasn’t a point guard?!

See, this is my problem with this site sometimes. People get too emotional. Kidd is indeed one of the best ever. If you doubt that, you don’t know too much about basketball. But his status as an all-time great has NEVER been based on his shooting ability. It’s been in SPITE of his poor shooting. You want to talk numbers? Consider this: Jason Kidd is not a Kobe or Iverson type, meaning he’s never been a scorer who’s asked to create his own shot. He creates for others. I point this out because people like Kobe and Iverson may have poor shooting percentages because they are volume shooters. And yet, despite this, they BOTH have better percentages than Jason Kidd, who, for his career is at %40.2 shooting from the floor. That’s why he’s called Ason. I mean, to be honest, I don’t watch a LOT of games, but do some of y’all watch ANY games?

360vue:
Yeah, Oscar could play the two. I’ll give you that much. I can’t make enough sense out of the rest of your (and tavoris’s) argument to respond. You say he was a great playmaker, but at the same time, you say he wasn’t a great floor general. You’re contradicting yourself. Oscar Robertson was a walking triple-double who controlled every facet of the game. And, by the way, he would average double-digit assists in an era when, if you found an open man with a pass, and your teammate took a single dribble before putting the ball before putting the ball in the basket, you wouldn’t be credited with an assist. Do you fathom that? That Oscar Robertson averaged a triple-double in those circumstances? He had to pass it to a guy, and the guy had to IMMEDIATELY SCORE, WITHOUT TAKING A SINGLE DRIBBLE. With John Stockton, he would run the pick and roll, he’d pass it to Karl Malone, Malone would take A COUPLE OF DRIBBLES, and then score, and Stock would still be credited an assist.

In other words, if the same criteria were applied to both players, Oscar Robertson would have, BY FAR, the most assists ever. To imply that Oscar Robertson was not an exemplary floor general is simple ignorance.

Teddy:
Brandon Roy will not drop 40 on Ron Artest on the regular.
Are you saying that it makes no difference who guards a dominant offensive player? So let’s say you’re coaching the Rockets, and your team is playing against Dwyane Wade, you say “Oh, well he’s Dwyane Wade…he abuses everyone. I’ll just let whoever guard Wade. Makes no difference. Or do you have your BEST DEFENSIVE PLAYER guard Wade? You’re going to say “No, Tariq, of COURSE I have Shane Battier guard Wade because he’s my best player.”
I’m not saying Stockton is a defensive liability because he failed to lock up Gary Payton and Kevin Johnson. I’m not saying that. I’m saying he was the WEAK POINT defensively in the Utah Jazz. So other teams EXPLOITED him. In other words, when the Sonics played the Jazz, the offensive side of Payton’s brain would be thinking: “Yippee, I get to play against John Stockton! I get to do WHATEVER I WANT! I can score AT WILL!”
Of course, on the flip side, when Payton had to guard Stockton, it was a different story. Stockton couldn’t DO WHATEVER HE WANTED. For example, he couldn’t post Payton up. And when he tried to use his speed to take GP off the dribble, he was successful at times, but Payton could guard him. In other words, in the Utah locker room, Jerry Sloan NEVER said: “OK Stock, we want you to take advantage of Payton.” But in the Seattle locker room, George Karl ALWAYS said: “OK Gary, we need to get you the ball as much as possible to take advantage of John.”

And it wasn’t just with elite point guards. It was with ANY point guard who could score. Because John Stockton COULD NOT DEFEND. Look at when they played the Houston Rockets with Kenny Smith and Sam Cassell for example. Same thing.

Tariq owned this thread. I agree with all of his comments. Some of y’all are way off base about Oscar Robertson. Not a floor general? Leave the crack alone NOW!