Thursday, December 31st, 2009 at 3:21 pm  |  198 responses

Decade’s Top 10 NBA Players

The names that claimed an unnamed decade.

Putting it to a democratic vote a la this summer’s SLAMonline Top 50, the order was delivered and the dix were down. Sorry to Melo and Truth, but these cats were the best in show. The final tally proved it wasn’t even close.

Try guessing the Decade’s Top 10 without reading on. You can do that. But putting their accomplishments into words? Good luck.

Here’s our best shot at it….

No. 10: Jason Kidd
by Brad Graham

Understanding why Jason Kidd is one of the decade’s best is easy, especially because his recipe for success is straight out of a Rachael Ray cookbook… you take Hobble’s vision; a master chess player’s decision making; Jedi Knight anticipation; UPS’ delivery system; a drug dealer’s push; Mos Def’s tempo and Bernie Madoff’s thievery. Mix it together, let it cook under the Californian sun and serve it once every generation.

The superlatives rightfully spew out whenever Kidd’s discussed in reference to this decade because the consummate point guard’s dime dropping play is as effective as Kobe Bryant’s scoring, Ray Allen’s jumper, LeBron James’ drive, Dwight Howard’s glass cleaning, well, you get the picture, and have ever since Kidd playmaking prowess was unleashed.

Speaking of making plays like Santa does toys, it was during the ’08-09 season that Kidd became the fourth player in NBA history to reach the magical 10,000 assist milestone. That mark meant he’s now the only player in NBA history with 15,000 points, 10,000 assists and 7,000 rebounds. Not bad for a player who can’t shoot a basketball.

Equally important, on April 5 ‘08, in a game that saw Kidd hand out a season high 20 assists against, of all teams, the Phoenix Suns (more on them in a minute), he dished out his 10,142 career dime. This helped him surpass Magic Johnson for third on the all time NBA assist list. Of course his placement didn’t last long as Kidd leap frogged Mark Jackson early in the 2009/10 season for 2nd place on the assist list.

Remaining an immeasurable asset, J-Kidd joins Sam Cassell, Ben Wallace and Tim Duncan and as the most under appreciated talents of the decade. Don’t feel too bad for him though, Kidd did collect a staggering $135,822,835 worth of NBA Owner’s dollars this decade to make up for his troubles. So when it’s reported that he averages a triple double once every 10 games or so, just know he’s getting paid for a reason. Don’t worry, it doesn’t help me sleep any better either.

The comparisons to Tim Duncan also extend beyond locker room value as the PG finds himself locked into a similar battle (think Duncan vs. Kevin Garnett) with fellow virtuoso Steve Nash for the title of decade defining playmaker. A battle he’s handed over to Chris Paul and Deron Williams. However, unlike the Spurs’ superstar, Kidd found himself traded (twice) this decade.

In ’01, following charges for spousal abuse (in which he missed 15 games) Kidd was shopped after the Suns suffered another first round playoff exit (this time by the Sacramento Kings). Along with Chris Dudley, Kidd was sent to the New Jersey Nets for Stephon Marbury, Johnny Newman and Soumaila Samake.

Note: This trade would later allow the Suns to land Amar’e Stoudemire via the ’02 Draft, thanks in large to Marbury’s inability to play at Kidd’s level. To say the Jason Kidd for Stephon Marbury deal didn’t work out remains a gross understatement. As a result, the Phoenix Suns missed the playoffs for the first time since ’88, wining just 36 games. Marbury dropped 20.4 ppg but the Suns clearly missed Kidd who instantly turned his Nets from losers to Eastern Conference Champions.

Kidd’s well documented culture changing arrival in Jersey not only had all 176 Nets fans wanting to be seen out at East Rutherford, it had him receiving legit MVP votes. Much like Kevin Garnett’s impression with the ’07-08 Boston Celtics, Kidd was the League’s real MVP in ‘01-02 but was denied the honor (he finished second in voting to Duncan) because stats and fashion dictated that point guards don’t receive the Maurice Podoloff trophy. That was the thinking at the time.

In fact it was way back in ‘03 (before Nash become a dual MVP and everyone’s second favorite player) that Jason Kidd’s popularity hit the ceiling. The seminal guard not only graced the cover of EA Sports famed NBA Live series, he once again led his New Jersey Nets out of the fog that is the Eastern Conference to their second consecutive Finals appearance, either making him one of the greatest losers of the decade (like Karl Malone in the ‘90s) or a rare generational talent who continually overachieved and carried a mediocre roster / franchise (or both).

It was here in New Jersey that proof of Kidd’s worth became apparent. In a seemingly pedestrian 120-114 overtime regular season win over the Washington Wizards (in which he collected his 86th triple double) Kidd helped himself and former team mate Vince Carter chalk up another appearance in the NBA record books. The duo became the first team mates since Michael Jordan (41 points, 11 assists and 10 rebounds) and Scottie Pippen (15 points, 12 assists and 10 boards) to notched T-D’s in the same game and this was back when Tim Burton’s Batman was tops at the box office.

Vinsanity collected 46 points, added 16 rebounds (becoming only the fourth player in NBA history to record a triple double with at least 46 points / 16 boards, joining Wilt Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor and Alvin Adams) and yes, he even somehow managed to hand out 10 assists. Of course, who set up the majority of VC’s points… you guessed it, Kidd. He nabbed a then career high 16 boards, equaled his ’07 season high with 18 assists and slipped in 10 points (thanks to late free throw). Point to all this? Kidd would tell reporters that “I wish I could have a triple-double like Vince.” Guess he’ll just have to settle for being the active leader. Oh well. Let the record show that LeBron James is second among active players, a mere 80 plus triple doubles behind Kidd.

Following his impressive stint in Jersey, Kidd would later be reunited with his first NBA franchise, the Dallas Mavericks in early ‘08 thanks to a trade that included the two teams swapping starting PG’s. Note: This trade was due in large to the Mav’s embarrassing first round NBA Playoff loss to the Golden State Warriors and their inability to match up with the bruising Baron Davis. Speculation has also been made that Kidd wanted to bolt from Vince Carter but only ESPN’s Bill Simmons believes that. Of course the Mavs (with their superior supporting cast have continued to shine, thanks to Kidd) while the Nets continue their tour towards the Antarctic Circle.

While NBA success is apparent, it’s with his national team that Kidd’s showing is best represented. Collecting two Olympic Gold Medals in Sydney (2000) and Beijing (’08), respectively, Kidd finishes the decade undefeated when wearing the stars and stripes. Winning USA Basketball’s 2007 Male Athlete of the Year, Kidd became the nations definitive point guard, showcasing that no one orchestrates the fast break better. Much like his ’08 Dallas Mavericks’ reprisal, Kidd became Jerry Colangelo’s Team USA anchor.

Now that the naughties are (almost) over, we can sit back and appreciate Jason Kidd. He finishes the decade ranked 2nd in career assists with 10,337 dimes dropped (and given he never ran with a player of Karl Malone’s calibre, his career total impresses this blogger as much as John Stockton’s); 3rd in career and 2nd in Playoff triple doubles, respectively, making him the NBA’s accountant (aka good with numbers); 6th in total steals with 2,200 and counting (making him the decade’s master thief) and last but certainly not least, 29th in SLAM’s revised Top 50 of All Time.

Above all that, the subject of Jason Kidd has never really been about the seven All Star berths (2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2008); the four All NBA First Team selections (2000, 2001, 2002, 2004) or the eight All Defensive Team nods (First team: 2001, 2002, 2006. Second Team: 2000, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007) simply because his impact and play has never been based on individual glory. Kidd’s legacy and ability to deliver a bouquet of highlights is one of elevated team play (both on the NBA timber and for Team USA) but if you really want to make it about the numbers, a complete list of Kidd’s first 100 NBA triple doubles can be found here.

No. 9: Dwyane Wade
by Chris Deaton

Dwyane Wade is the champion of his class.

The finest hours of the deities are revealed under the brightest spotlights on the biggest stages. And although LeBron has his MVP and a defining game, Wade has his ring—something borne of defining games (3, 4, 5, 6).

At 27, his accolades project a legendary career: a Finals MVP, a superlative Olympic performance that keyed his country’s gold medal and five-consecutive All-Star appearances from 2005-09. He was honored as SI’s “Sportsman of the Year” in 2006, joining the likes of Russell, Kareem, Michael, Duncan and Robinson. Last season, he posted a career best 30 points and 7.5 assists a night en route to his first appearance on the All-NBA First Team.

And his résumé would be fuller were it not for a reckless abandon that has sidelined him 20 games or more in three of his six full seasons.

His play has frequently captured Jordan’s flavor, with exceptional finishing ability, a dangerous turnaround and coolness in the clutch. One of his game’s biggest knocks is his lack of range—but consider that MJ failed to crack 30 percent from three until his sixth season, and even then, it wasn’t an integral part of his game, nor did it need to be. Perhaps much is and will continue to be the same for D-Wade.

With Kobe in his 14th season, it’s possible that Wade, a player with less mileage, stands to inherit the mantle of the game’s best shooting guard during the 2010s. He is one of two men on this “Decade’s Best” list whose greatest years likely lie ahead. If that’s the case, in Dwyane Wade, the sporting world may be witnessing the evolution of one of the greatest players in NBA history.

No. 8: Steve Nash
by DeMarco Williams

Stephen John Nash is so good he’s actually underrated. Yeah, he’s been toasted with the two MVPs (‘04-‘05 and ‘05-‘06; only the third guard to ever accomplish the back-to-back) and six All-Star Game appearances, but there’s just so much more to the cool Canadian’s game than that.

Take, for instance, the man’s durability. Nash, 6-3 and 175 pounds if you weighed him right after the Christmas feast, averaged 77 games per season over the 00s. And then there’s his grossly overlooked shooting. Last year Nash became the only player in League history to shoot 50 percent from the field, 40 percent from beyond the arc and 90 percent from the free-throw line over three straight campaigns. Of the three achievements, Stevie’s long-distance dialing is probably the most overlooked. The ’03-’04 was the only season this decade the one-time Mav/full-time Sun didn’t finish in the top 10 in three-point percentage.

Still, when most folks think of the gritty guard, they immediately hark memories of him leading a fast break and delivering a crisp Spalding to Dirk, Amar’e or J-Rich over the years. And while the magical dishes are nice (The 35-year-old currently leads the NBA in dimes and is already in the top 10 for career assists), Nash is kinda like Michael Vick. See, the actual passing is only part of the fun.

Stevie has already amassed three 30+ scoring nights this year. Hell, Deron Williams, Tony Parker and Baron Davis have that many combined! He totaled over 20 in seven straight contests last year. He’s even had a couple of 40-point explosions over his hall of fame career.

Wait, did somebody say underrated?

So, yeah, call Stephen John Nash a great floor leader and assist machine all you want. He is most definitely that. Just don’t say we didn’t warn you the next time the decade’s finest pure point guard torches your squad for 30 of his own.

No. 7: Allen Iverson
by Mike Middlehurst-Schwartz

Say what you will about Allen Iverson – just remember who you’re talking about.

There are players on this list who had more successful a more decorated decade than “The Answer,” but few were more iconic. The imagery of Iverson is almost endless. Conjuring his name brings up memories of crossing over Michael Jordan (a little bit of a cheat since this moment went down back in the archaic 20th century), stepping over Tyronn Lue in the NBA Finals and the infamous practice rant which will go down in YouTube lore.

Iverson both lived and played at a speed that prevented almost anyone from keeping stride with him. And though his approach and style were polarizing, his results were undeniable – an MVP season in ‘00-01 and a litany of games taken over by the League’s favorite mighty mite. Toughness became his calling card after he proved time and again his willingness to play through a seemingly endless series of injuries.

Watching Iverson mature in the latter half of the decade has at times been an uncomfortable and awkward task. A short stay in Detroit was unsuccessful and an even shorter stay in Memphis was downright cringeworthy. But even though Iverson has been forced to reinvent himself – or at least his role – during his second stint with the Sixers, at least one of the decade’s best will get a chance to step aside on his own terms. Hey, it’s always sunny in Philadelphia, right?

No. 6: Dirk Nowitzki
by Ben Collins

Do you recognize him now? He has these big shoulders now — big, bounding arms swinging on refined hinges. They collect teeth now. As of about three weeks ago, this is true.

No homo. I mean, no no homo? Is that statement itself homohobic? Dirk, would you know? No, no comment?

No, he would know, probably, but he wouldn’t say. Just like his Twitter does. He’s found a way to say nothing by saying a lot about the only topic he knows everything about. And he can do this in two languages!

But reporters scoff. Boring! And we yawn and jot slowly, then walk away angrily.

Then some woman appears over the summer — someone who appeared to be cheating on him with his own cash — and we wanted to be angry so badly, we wanted to turn on him and punch him in his big, dumb, suddenly really-developed shoulders. But we couldn’t. We just felt bad for the guy.

Does that guy even speak English? People will yell this in sports bars. Even now. It will piss us off. It’s been 10 years. Yes, we will tell them, he’s perfect at it, just like he’s perfect at basketball, but we can’t write that. You can’t turn around one day and say, “Hey, listen, there’s a guy who’s been almost perfect at something for the past decade, we just haven’t been doing our jobs very well.”

But how can this person have not seen him before? Is he really that different of a player? In the late-90s and early-’00s he was this quirky, seven-foot, point-center with a jumpshot. Is he really this bruising, solemn, menacing, elbow-wielding, teeth-collecting, dare-we-say-it power forward?

It’s not like if you put Dirk Nowitzki and Karl Malone‘s career paths next to one another you couldn’t tell them apart.

Wait.

Do you recognize him now?

No. 5: LeBron James
by Sandy Dover

The manchild has now grown into a man, the myth has become a bonafide fact, and his legend continues to grow with each step and shot. LeBron Ramone James is arguably the most anticipated and storied player to play the game of basketball. That he came out of high school to be a No. 1 pick is merely a footnote for the player who may be the most skilled big perimeter player to ever play basketball (when his career is summed up).

Starting as a professional point guard, then playing shooting guard, then the “3″ spot and now a legitimate threat to teams when playing power forward, LeBron James is the epitome of an all-world player. Dominating with his Jason Kidd-like vision and passing, shooting fadeaway jumpers from the three-point line with relative ease, attacking the basket like a bull from Barcelona and leading the break in the manner of Magic, it’s no wonder he’s feared. Standing (and possibly still growing?) at 6-9-1/2 and weighing between 260-275 pounds (depending on the day), even Michael Jordan wasn’t as physically imposing.

But it’s not the stats that makes Le Cavalier so special–that he has career points/rebounds/assists of 27-7-7, or that he literally can do just about anything in a real-life game that you can think of (he ain’t called “Video Game James” for nothin’)–no, what sets The King apart from his brethren is that for all of his skills, for all of his physical and mental advantages as a basketball player, he continually seeks to uplift his teammates. He’s the new Pippen, he’s the new Magic, he’s the new swingman, he’s the new point guard, but more than anything, he’s the new standard. He has been set apart, and for all of his gifts, LeBron James is going to be the player of the next decade as well.

No. 4: Kevin Garnett
by Myles Brown

In practically any argument of “Who’s better?” someone will inevitably exclaim “Well if Player X was traded for Player Y, he could’ve done that…”. On behalf of reasonable people everywhere, I beseech you. Please, stop that shit. Things are hard enough to quantify and evaluate without needlessly complicating matters even further with improbable scenarios. The case for any player should be stated based on the facts at hand and nothing more.

Except for K.G. Why? Because of the Blazers, Spurs, Mavericks, and Lakers. Instead of marveling at his ability to drag a sub par team into the playoffs every year, Garnett’s critics chose to chastise him for his inability to single-handedly upset a title contender. It’s bullshit.

With all due apologies to the King, Kevin Garnett is the most unique player in NBA history. He’s a 7-0 forward with a guard’s skill set who can play and defend any position on the floor. He’s the only player ever to average 20 points, 10 rebounds and 5 assists for six consecutive seasons. He’s also the only player ever to average 20 points, 10 rebounds and 4 assists for nine consecutive seasons. And he’s the only player ever to have his prime wasted on a roster that boasted “All Star” Wally Szczerbiak as the second option.

Upon escaping to Boston, Garnett immediately removed all doubts concerning his elite status by spearheading one of the most formidable defensive units of all time. His versatility, selflessness and infectious desire completely transformed a lottery team into a champion. Had he not been injured last spring the Celtics could arguably be looking to three peat this year. The critics have been silenced and there is only one remaining question about Kevin Garnett.

What would have happened if he spent his prime as a Spur?

No. 3: Shaquille O’Neal
by Sean Ceglinsky

A good debate is good for the soul, although anyone arguing that Shaquille O’Neal should not be mentioned among the top three ballers in the business over the course of the last 10 years needs to have his head examined.

Let’s keep it real people, Shaq changed the game. His resume speaks for itself.

For starters, he’s won four NBA titles (2000, 2001, 2002, 2006), taking home The Finals most valuable player honor on three occasions (2000, 2001, 2002).

A 15-time All-Star, O’Neal made the team nine different times during the decade (2000-07 and 2009), earning the MVP award three times (2000, 2004, 2009).

Need more proof that his No.3 ranking on this who‘s who list is worthy? We can go on and on, trust us. In fact, a case can be made that Shaq should be higher.

For example, Kobe Bryant would have had an extremely tough time winning the first three of his four championships in Los Angeles without O’Neal, who averaged more than 20 points and 10 rebounds per game in each of his eight seasons with the Lakers.

Same goes for Dwyane Wade in Miami. A step slower, Shaq’s numbers were down a bit in 2006, but that didn’t prevent him from guiding Wade & Co. to a title.

O’Neal is hoping to duplicate the feat this season, with LeBron James in Cleveland, of course. Best believe that if Shaq is successful this time around, he’ll cement his name as one of the NBA’s best ever, regardless of the decade, or the century, for that matter.

Whether he wins another championship remains to be seen. One thing is certain: His trophy case at home is full of hardware, no doubt about it. Perhaps equally impressive is the collection of nicknames he’s managed to compile the last 10-plus years.

Some of his more mainstream monikers are: Shaq Fu, Superman, The Diesel, The Big Aristotle and The Big Shaqtus. Here’s a couple you might’ve missed: The Big Baryshnikov, Wilt Chamberneezy, and the most recent edition to the stable, Shaqovic.

Call Shaquille Rashaun O’Neal what you want, just make sure it’s one of the decade’s best.

No. 2: Tim Duncan
by Todd Spehr

Sure thing. That’s what Tim Duncan is – a sure thing.

In a decade that reeked of hype, praising guys before they’re worthy of praise, in some instances underachievement, perhaps the explanation as to why we the consumer isn’t enamored with Duncan is for one simple reason: We can count on him.

Duncan is the only player that automatically made his team a contender every year of this period. He is the only one to be the best player on four title teams in this post-Jordan era. And he has this Russellonian quality in that his greatness isn’t confined to something like an individual per game statistic; his career numbers certainly are not of the gaudy variety, but his title count is.

We hardly know a thing about him yet Duncan reveals himself in all his glory each time he plays, and therefore tells us more about himself than we realize. In a decade where our stars wanted to be bigger than the game itself, by staying within in it and concentrating on its basic premise – to win – Duncan became the rock in a forever-altering NBA landscape.

How will we remember the Tim Duncan of the 2000s? We won’t remember him for one moment, one game, or even one transcendent season. Instead, we’ll remember him for being there, for being great in some way, for all of it.

No. 1: Kobe Bryant
by Vincent Thomas

During the 2001 Playoffs Kobe averaged 29 ppg, 7 rpg and 6 apg. The Lakers would go on a 15-1 tear, razing their opponents on their way to back-to-back championships. The championship run included classic performances from Kobe, like his 48 and 15 in a Game 4 closeout of Sacramento.

He followed that up with 45 and 10 in the conference championship opener against the Spurs. He did all this while taking the mantle from Scottie Pippen and playing some of the most deranged and chaotic perimeter defense we’ve ever seen.

One of his most indelible images of a career full of them probably came in that Game 4 against the Kings. Shaq had fouled out with a good chunk of the fourth quarter remaining. What now? Even though Kobe averaged 28.5 to Shaq’s 28.7 that season, Shaq was still clearly the Lakers MVP and the League’s Top Dog. So, with Shaq out for the rest of a game against bigs like Chris Webber and Vlade Divac, the thinking was that the series might go on. But Kobe Just took over and then, after nailing a 10-foot floater to quiet the Arco nutbags, ran down the court with his arms by his side and palms parallel to floor making the “chill out, I got this” motion. In a lot of ways, he became Shaq’s equal at that moment. It was during this playoff run that the League’s best player, Shaquille O’Neal, began calling Kobe “the best player in the world.”

By the next season, as L.A. was on its way to a three-pea, folks were forced to start making distinctions. Shaq was the most dominant, Tim Duncan was the most valuable, but Kobe was the best…or whatever all the meant. By 2003, when Kobe averaged 30 ppg for the first time in his career, the arguments kinda stopped. Some folks tried to bring Tracy McGrady or Vince Carter into the discussion, but no sane person really disputed that Kobe was the best all-around player in the NBA. Again, Duncan and Kevin Garnett might have been more valuable and Shaq was still the most dominant force in the League, but nobody played the game of basketball with the brilliance, virtuosity, skill and brio that Kobe played it every game.

What he did in the ’05-06 season was downright preposterous. Not only did he average 35 ppg for the season — something that, other than Wilt, only Jordan (’87) and Rick Barry (’67) accomplished — but he averaged 43 effing points per effing game for ALL of January. To do that in the modern NBA is astounding. And, yeah, that’s the month he pulled off that 81-point game against Toronto that should go down as the greatest single game feat — considering all the factors — in the history of sport. That’s like rushing for 500 yards in an NFL game or hitting six grand slams in one baseball game.

There’s something really sad about the 2004-2007 Kobe, though, because it was during these seasons that his skill and athleticism met at a peak and it was also those three seasons when he dragged around a young, talentless Lakers squad that were relevant and compelling only because a martian played for them. Imagine if he could have spent those seasons on a contender. Before you blame him for forcing Shaq out of L.A. and making his own bed, you should check the terms on which Shaq has left Miami and Phoenix (and he most likely won’t leave Cleveland like Dr. J left the Sixers, either).

Kobe ended the decade playing with more savvy and wisdom than force and dynamism. More importantly, he ended the decade with an MVP in ’08 and a Finals MVP in ’09. So his 10-year resume looks like this: two-time scoring champ, 10-time All Star, three-time All Star MVP, league MVP (should have won in ’06, too), Finals MVP, four championships and consensus pick for “best player on the planet” title from ’03-’08 and arguable in 2002 and 2009, too.

Shaq may have been the NBA Kingmaker for the first half of the decade and Duncan may have been the most valuable player of the decade; but Kobe Bryant was the best.

***

For more Decade Awards, check out the archive.

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  • Aaron

    Bron is great where he is. Nash too. Wade should definitely be higher. I might put Timmy over Shaqqie. Good job boys.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    Hi. Steve Nash is an ambidextrous marvel with a basketball who has shot 50/40/90 multiple times. His defense certainly leaves something to be desired, but offensively he is one of the top ten-maybe five-points to ever play the game. If people think hes overrated because of his two MVPs, I can agree with that. But saying hes overrated as a basketball player is ridiculous. Allen Iverson, on the other hand is a shot happy, inefficient turnover machine who has been proven to be impossible to build around. He dominates the ball and doesnt necessarily make his teammates better. He hasnt had any great teammates, but with his style of play its not a stretch at all to say they wouldnt have meshed well unless they solely wanted to grab his rebounds. Hes been in the league for more than a decade and his game hasnt changed or improved in the slightest at any point in his career. His status as an icon in the game is due more to his overblown cultural impact than any significant advancements of the sport. F*ck, if Steve Nash is overrated then there literally isnt a word for what Allen Iverson is. Bye!

  • http://dsjfhklf.com Jukai

    Myles, if you ran for governor, you’d have my vote now, even if you ran on the platform of eating babies.

  • http://thestartingfive.net Michael Tillery

    Steve Nash has the worse MVP numbers in the HISTORY of the league. He was never better than Kidd when Jason was in his prime. He has yet to sniff a FINALS and was ate up by anyone SAC threw at him during his Dallas years. If you watch the Suns, they pick off his defender for a mismatch. He then can shoot, pass, dribble or damn near vote for himself for MVP when a big dude guards him.

    What is this Steve Nash slobber? So am I to understand that if Kidd never was involved in domestic disputes he would be a higher rated point guard by the media? Whatever. Since when is Nash a better passer than Jason? Most of Nash’s passes are at the rim or out to the line. How many triple doubles does Jason Kidd have? Steve Nash has had maybe five good years so that makes him the best point guard of the decade? Say no to drugs! Look at it this way: If you come off a multiple game road swing and you arrive in Phoenix you will have no legs and subsequently get blown out. I remember doing a long sit down with Artest and asking him who the best players in the league were and his second player was Nash until he thought about it. He said something to the effect of “Hold up!” and Nash didn’t crack his top five after he came to his senses and that was during the MVP years. Look at it this way those Webber Bibby teams would have murdered Nash’s Suns and Webber or Bibby never won the award despite being the best team in the league not playing in LA. It’s funny, but my Artest point was if you hear it enough it will eventually become law and that’s foul. Nash is playing in an era where there’s no hand checking. If you are this “ambidextrous marvel with a basketball who has shot 50/40/90 multiple times” so what? What about Stockton? What about Mark Price? What about Kevin Johnson? The rules have distorted history. It allows a demographic to grab on to an overrated point guard who has never had serious post season success. AI took a wick wick wack Philly team to the FINALS ALONE and made his money before the rules changes. He won his MVP legit. Amar’e was virtually unstoppable before injury yet he barely received any praise. Seriously man come on. This is ridiculous. This is absurd because no way in HELL should Nash have more MVP’s than Kobe, LeBron, Kidd, Webber, Garnett, Stocton, Payton,Pippen, Barkley, Ewing, Price, Rodman, Thomas, Gervin….man I could go on and on. This era is so caught up in the 24 hour news cycle and to allow such a travesty to happen is unacceptable. When kids look back on this era they will see three MVP’s (including Dirk’s) and no Finals appearances. Nash is good but not great. Smoke some more crack.

  • http://thestartingfive.net Michael Tillery

    Just because you are a player who has brought “excitement” back to the NBA does not constitute you are a basketball icon. Put DWill or CP3 on those Suns teams. I bet the outcome would be much different. When you all get done passing whatever you are smoking, my name is SKIP. Good not great player.

  • http://dsjfhklf.com Jukai

    Oh yeah, I remember you now Tillery. You’re the dude that told me that people only consider Stockton a good defender because the white media made him out that way.
    Good to see you’re still around.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    Mike, nothing you said had much to do with why Steve Nash is not one of the top ten players of the decade. The MVP chatter is a tired point that most would willingly concede. No, he shouldnt have two MVPs, but just as they dont make him better, not deserving them doesnt make him worse either. It simply means that the voters f*cked up. And the MVP trophies he has-deserved or not-dont put any extra points on the board during the game and they dont set picks for him. Anything he does on the court is something hes earned through skill and hard work. Yes, the rules are relaxed and that allows him to penetrate and maintain his dribble easier, but that doesnt mean that what he does is easy. I dont care to indulge in hypotheticals, Bibbys Kings never played the Suns and as I noted in the KG writeup, the “trade player X for player Y” argument is as hypothetical-and impossible to prove-as they come. No thanks. I dont care to discuss players that didnt play in this decade, so Mark Price and Kevin Johnson dont mean much in this discussion to me. And its nothing short of ironic to dismiss Nash as a player with no postseason success and subsequently reference Allen Iverson. Seriously, I LOL’d. Any intellectually honest person would acknowledge that the 2001 Sixers had one of the easiest paths to the NBA Finals in league history. More importantly, how many times has Chuck been out of the first round since? Honestly, if I had to choose between Nash and Iverson, Id choose Nash. Because I can actually build a team around him. Hed certainly be a defensive liability, but hes remarkably efficient, durable and a team player. Iverson, on the other hand, is inefficient, far more difficult to find complementary players for and his defensive reputation is overblown. He wasnt a good on ball defender, he gambled in passing lanes for a living. This is all aside from one of the most important things in that his attitude sucks. If you want to take away Steve Nash’s MVPs, fine. I could give a f*ck. But nothing else can be taken from that man. Now is Jason Kidd better? Not more accomplished, not has he gone further in the playoffs, but actually better, as in a more skilled, competent and preferable player? Probably. He cant hit the broad side of a barn, but his defense and rebounding make him a more impactful player and his IQ is as high as anyone’s. He is well suited for half court and uptempo play, whereas Nash is probably only going to excel in the latter. But that doesnt mean that a 50/40/90 point guard who can handle the ball as well as anyone and complete passes that most couldnt even imagine isn’t also great.

  • http://www.hibachi20.blogspot.com Hursty

    I can’t believe you guys even read The Seed’s posts anymore.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    By the way, Nash may indeed have the worst numbers of any MVP. I didnt bother to look. What I did just look at showed me that Nash’s numbers-strictly in terms of points and assists-were better than Kidd’s best numbers in his Finals years. And style of play shouldnt be much of a factor when considering that the Nets were 9th and 11th respectively in their Finals years. And please stop trying to diminish Nash’s time in Phoenix as ‘five good years’. Hes been a 50/40/90 player-which is a hell of an achievement for just one season whether you choose to recognize it or not-for his entire stay there. Hes one measly percentage point away from being 50/40/90 for his entire career! When accounting for the blistering pace the Suns play at, this is simply amazing. Then there’s the 4 separate 11+ assist seasons hes had there also. Something Kidd has never done. And again, Kidd has played on top ten teams in pace in both Phoenix and New Jersey for several years, so lets not act as though he was denied the opportunity. This isnt something that is easily attained under the right circumstances. You cant just give any point guard the ball and tell them to run n gun. This wasnt a case of Nash simply being a system player. It was a case of a talented player given an system that enabled him to excel. Just like Allen Iverson in 2001, the one year that his supposed greatness hinges upon. If Nashs numbers in Phoenix can be so easily dismissed as five good years, then Id like to see what constitutes five good years in Allen Iversons career. After his ‘legit’ MVP-a year in which he shot 42% on 25 shots per game-he fell off hard and shot 39, 41, 38 and 42% in the following five years on 27, 23, 23, and 24 shots per game respectively. His team advanced to the second round once in those years AND THATS THE LAST TIME HES BEEN THERE. This is just silly. Its like admonishing someone for drinking Red Bull and then trumpeting the merits of drinking Drano.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    Ill say it again, because apparently it was too easily glossed over when DeMarco wrote it. “Last year Nash became the only player in League history to shoot 50 percent from the field, 40 percent from beyond the arc and 90 percent from the free-throw line over three straight campaigns.” That’s a hell of a lot more than a good year. Its doing something that no one else who has ever played professional basketball has accomplished. Its completely unprecedented. And were it not for 2006-07, in which he shot 89.9% from the FT line, it would be something hes done for 5 straight years, a feat that we will not likely see duplicated for a long time, no matter how good CP3 or DWill become. So again, if these are merely five good years, then please show me something equally impressive from Allen Iverson. Or Jason Kidd for that matter. His numbers are downright pedestrian when compared to Magic’s. Yes, there is a bias towards Steve Nash from some and yes, some of it is racially motivated. But it seems as though your distaste for this has made you equally biased towards him.

  • http://thestartingfive.net Michael Tillery

    Myles it’s as simply as this: If Nash doesn’t win TWO MVP’s we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

    That’s my point. You cannot separate the MVP’s from the discussion. What is that?

    To even say Steve Nash has had a better career than Allen Iverson is absurd. Straight up.

    Allen has a couple of bad public related seasons and all hell breaks loose.

    You can say what you want about shooters stats. Where are his RINGS if he is such a great player? Where are FINALS appearances? Where are the all time victory seasons? Where are the 40 and 20′s, 30 and 15′s? Stats that would explain all this chick like slobber. This cat ain’t sui generis like that. How the hell do you diminish his defensive liability? How do you dismiss Allen Iverson’s path to the Finals? Weren’t the Sixers the only team to defeat the Lakers that playoff year? See more than what is in front of your face. I’d gander to say if Iverson had Stat on his 2001 team they might beat ya bum ass Lakers that year. Nash had had so many good players on his roster and don’t give me he made all of them better. He had stud shooters and a man’s man at the four. Dude is allowed to circle around the lane and throw lobs after his man is picked off! What is that? How does that teach kids to be better players? It gives a player of his skill set an advantage he normally wouldn’t have had in decades past. You talk like this dude is really a top five point guard of all time. You really can’t be serious. You talk about bias…I’m a history writer and I’ll be damned if a point guard who has been annointed the second coming but yet to kiss the ring be mentioned as an all time great. He’s a system point guard. Compare him to Kurt Warner not playing in New York.

  • http://dsjfhklf.com Jukai

    “I’d gander to say if Iverson had Stat on his 2001 team they might beat ya bum ass Lakers that year.”
    Wow………….

  • http://thestartingfive.net Michael Tillery

    *anointed. To make Steve Nash one of the most accomplished players in the history of the league is straight crazy. If you or anyone else for that matter ascribe to that type of thought as a writer I fear for your sanity. Myles you aren’t getting it. You aren’t looking outside the game. You are succumbing to the present. There’s no way Steve Nash should have won an MVP before Kobe Bryant? Do you know how ridiculous that even sounds. Do you know how absurd that reality will seem way down the road? Myles what has Steve Nash DONE?

  • http://thestartingfive.net Michael Tillery

    Jukai I say that only because Shaq was allowed to run over Dik on his way to the rim that season while Webber and Mutumbo were disqualified a lot of times because of offensive fouls.

  • http://thestartingfive.net Michael Tillery

    An Jukai. I never said such thing about Stockton. Never ever. Don’t put me in that box. John Stockton would murder Steve Nash in any era.

  • http://dsjfhklf.com Jukai

    First off…
    take this from an avid Suns fan since the KJ/Barkley days: Stoudemire is a better player NOW than he was pre-injury. Amare could not create offense for beans before he began working on that midrange jumper and improving his dribbling. STAT, for lack of a better word, was purely a finisher. There is NO WAY he would have given even one more win to that atrocious Phili team.
    Secondly,
    I know you don’t watch a lot of Suns games due to your hatred for all things Nash related, but your breakdown of Nash’s passing is atrocious. You think he only passes to cutters from under the basket? What? Pick and rolls, bounce passes from the key, lob passes from 3/4ths of the court, picking up cutters from the baseline, –he may be the best EVER at kicking out to three point shooters–, there are things Nash can do with the ball that Jason Kidd couldn’t even dream of doing. What you are saying is simply fabrication: you are not describing what happens in reality.
    Thirdly…
    48-7… on 71% shooting… 5/15/05… W
    39-12 on 58% shooting… 5/20/05… W
    32-13 on 64% shooting… 5/04/06… W
    31-12 on 66% shooting… 5/8/06… W
    24-15 on 66% shooting… 5/14/07… W
    Don’t worry, you didn’t waste my time (too much) finding all that. You know, because I only looked at his playoff numbers, which you claim he never did anything in….
    So, how many players have gotten forty points and twenty assists? Seems like a pretty common occurrence, so, you know, tell me.
    Fourth,
    you are the only dude here who is putting Nash on a pedestal. The second coming? Who in the world has said Nash was the second coming? No one claims he was on par with Magic, Oscar, Stockton, Thomas, or Frazier. Not even the guys who voted him as an MVP twice. What they saw is an incredibly valuable player who took a horrendous team and transformed it into a contender, and they saw there WERE no Magics and Oscars… and they made Nash the MVP. Sure, the oversight on what Kobe was doing at the time was horrendous, but Kobe legitimately stole an MVP from Chris Paul… where is the outrage against Kobe? Where are people shaming Kobe for taking Chris Paul’s MVP? I certainly don’t hear it from you. You see things that don’t exist, you see the media heralding Nash as Magic’s apprentice. That’s insulting to even ESPN. It’s not reality.
    And finally, it’s insulting to SLAM and Nash himself that you suggest that he wouldn’t even be on this list if not for his two MVPs. If Nash had not won any MVPs at all, sports writers would be talking about how a man who averaged 50/40/90 while getting over eleven assists a game and taking his team to 60 wins never won an MVP! That would be mind blowing. Of course, I don’t know this for a fact, but you don’t know that Nash wouldn’t be on the same place on this list MVPs or not. What’s crazy to me is that because people think Nash is overrated, people will honestly bring up Chauncy Billups and Mark friggin Price and say that these cats even compare to Nash. Rubbish.

  • http://dsjfhklf.com Jukai

    And if you even have to ask Myles what Steve Nash has honestly done, you didn’t read what he wrote.
    As for my Stockton comment, I have to apologize… I did hear this from someone from thestartingfive, I thought it was you but it must have been someone else. It was in a similar discussion.
    One more thing: If Nash has only been transcendent in one system, and that makes him a system player, why does Iverson not share such a title when he has only been transcendent with a team full of offensively limited, high-rebounding defensive role players? I’m not saying Iverson is worse than Nash in any way… I’m just asking that question.

  • abelnthegoblin

    you are all wasting your time with your paragraph long comments. no one in the real world reads these because they have real lives. especially you teddy bear.

  • http://thestartingfive.net Michael Tillery

    Did you actually watch Mark Price play? I apologize for generalizing Nash’s passing skills. He’s a ridiculous passer but his two MVP’s set a precedent. That’s my concern. So a guy wins two MVP’s and we should just throw away any mention that he did historically. Not my pedestal. Still you diminish Stat’s ability. Incredible. I watch way too much basketball fam. Way more than you think. Search my room and you’ll find Barkley Game 7 triple Seattle killing doubles and even Steve Nash 32 point Santa Clara late night ESPN debuts. What is wrong with scrutinizing a player with two MVP’s in regards to championships? Seriously, I’m going with Mr. Big Shot simply because of his nick name. You can have the 50/40/90. Give me the ring. That’s what it’s all about.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Thank You, Michael Tillery, about time some one on this board realizes, that the two MVP’s Nash got, makes him seem like his play is off the charts. Kidd will always be a better pg in my book and someone said they would take Nash over AI, is straight dumb, becuase Nash has had great teams in Dallas and Phx and did nothing. Dallas went to the Finals the next year with a rookie pg, after Nash left and PHx had great win totals, but could barely beat Kobe with Smush and Kwame. All I am saying is Nash is not top 10 of decade, I believe Paul Pierce and Ray Allen based off of their numbers and ring, should get the nod and media did play a part in Nash getting those MVP’s saying he is great for basketball, he got Phx winning with AMare hurt, but people forget those same SUNS with Marbury at point almost put the Spurs out one year, but did Marbury get the same love. NO!!! AI public relations has hurt him, but people forget if Nash is so great, why did Marion(the real MVP of those teams) and Joe Johnson leave and AMare wanted out.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    As a Laker fan and more importantly, as a fan of the game and its history, I stated my opinion on Nashs MVPs a hundred times if I did once. But its four or five years later. Hes still producing and I respect that. It doesnt change my opinion on his MVPs, but it doesnt completely cloud my vision either. I get it just fine, Mike. I can ignore the MVPs and focus strictly on his abilities and production as a basketball player. Apparently you cant. The rest of this is just idle chatter.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Myles
    You on some BS saying Iverson has never improved his game. A lot of what you said is true, but that’s hyperbole.
    Iverson’s midrange game is greatly improved, he’s much better attackign off screens with the ball and without it. His court vision is better, and he is capable of playing within a team concept without as much freelancing.
    He has improved his use of change of pace, he’ improved his free throw shooting, he’s improved his pull up game in the lane.
    The NBA took away Allen Iverson’s favorite basketball move after his second year in the league and he never missed a beat as far as scoring. Who else can say that?
    And, he used to be absolutely deadly in the passing lanes, the definition of a ball hawk, if he did struggle in man to man defense. I don’t think Iverson is overrated in general, or on this list. I think SLAM did a good job with the list actually. Jason Kidd has had a better career and had a better early part of the decade than Nash, but I think if you look at the totality of their play, Nash played better for the entire decade. I mean, he was no bum in Dallas, he was a regular All-Star.
    I agree with everybody who says that the MVPs have skewed Nash’s legacies, but hey, I’m over it now. I don’t like media slurping, but what you gonna do?

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Allen P and others, Nash was not a regular All Star in Dallas, I have facts on the so call top all time great point guard, In the 2001–02 season and the 2002-03 season was Nash an All star in Dallas that’s it. He came into the league in 96 played with dallas from 1998 to 2004. Nash’s familiarity with this style combined with the athleticism of his teammates produced an NBA-best 62–20 record and a points-per-game average of 110.4, the highest in a decade.[23] The catalyst of this turnaround, Nash averaged 11.5 assists per game while making 50.2% of his field goals and 43.1% of his three-pointers in the regular season.[13][24] He edged Shaquille O’Neal to win the 2004–05 NBA MVP award. So he got an MVP, then Stoudemire suffered a serious knee injury, and Johnson and Quentin Richardson were traded away.[27] The Suns were not expected to repeat their successful 2005 season, so Lets give Nash another MVP over Kobe. Nash really didn’t become a regular All Star until coming to PHx. So ALLEN P, Nash was not a regular All Star in Dallas, see these MVP’s have you skewed about his Dallas career.
    • 2-time NBA Most Valuable Player: 2005, 2006
    • 6-time NBA All-Star: 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
    • 6-time All-NBA selection:
    • First team: 2005, 2006, 2007
    • Second team: 2008
    • Third team: 2002, 2003
    • 3-time NBA regular season leader for assists per game: 2005 (11.5), 2006 (10.5), 2007 (11.6)[10]
    • 3-time NBA regular season leader for total assists: 2005 (861), 2006 (826), 2007 (884)[10]
    • NBA regular season leader for free-throw percentage: 2006 (.921)[10]
    Came in the league in 1996 on went to All star game 6 times. First team only 3 times, This is Nash resume, because I hear folks all the time he belongs in the Hall of Fame. This is his Rap Sheet. Only two things stand out on his major accomplishments and he was just a good point guard.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Lol i guarantee you can find guys in the hall with much less impressive careers then nash seed – especially considering he has caused a revolution of sorts that has caused the league to become more exciting, high pace, and perimeter oriented.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    Myles, I was just about to agree with what you wrote about Steve Nash in that comment, until you said Iverson has never improved his game. That was laughably wrong.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    Just to clarify, I meant in his percentages, shot attempts, turnovers and general style of play. I certainly havent watched as much AI as someone like AllenP, so if hes confident that there have been subtle adjustments, Id take him at his word. And this doesnt mean that hes had the better career, but Id still choose Nash. Like I said, more efficient and much easier to build around.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Myles
    It would depend on the team I was building. Obviously, Nash plays a great style of point guard that work in more situations. But, have we seen him play with a big man who parks int he post and demands the rock? Have we seen him thrive in slower tempo styles? From what I can tell, Nash is intent on playing a particular style of basketball. The difference is that people LIKE his style of basketball, while they typically find Iverson’s style ugly. I don’t agree with this, but I understand the sentiment.
    Honestly, I’m not comfortable with a point guard who can’t play as well in a halfcourt game and who struggles on defense as much as Nash. Yes he’s a lights out shooter. Yes he’s a deft passer and very clutch. But, he can only play a style of basketball that has not been shown to be very effective at winning championships in this decade. Plus, I feel that Nash’s dominance, likes Iverson’s, depends an awful lot on him having the ball for most of the shot clock. I like Nash, but if I was building a lottery team from scratch, I would still take Iverson over him because Iverson can do more with less, in my opinion.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Myles
    Honestly, Iverson style of play has changed tremendously over the years. It really has. The shots he takes now are so different from what he was doing his first five years in the league. The dribble moves he does are vastly different. Now, he hasn’t made the sort of improvements and additions to his game that Kobe has, but NO other player has. In fact, most players in the league today are doing the same things they did when they came in, except the do the better. Very few players have remade their games, with Kobe, McGrady and KG the only players I can think of with huge changes, and that’s mainly because McGrady and KG had some gaping holes in their games early on. If the standard is Kobe, everybody, EVERYBODY falls short as far as improving. But, if the standard is anybody else, then I think Iverson compares pretty favorably. Remember, this cat could barely shoot when he first came in the league, relied heavily on that crossover, and played at exactly one speed–hyper. His change is so different right now, but it’s only evident if you’ve watched him for a while, and aren’t just going off his percentages.

  • UnRel

    what exactly is the argument here?.. they’re both on a list of decades best players?.. maybe i missed something with all the ramble posts.. arguing about nash and iverson is like when people compare b russ to wilt.. their games are totally different.. all this talk about if play x and y switched teams is silly.. because the system must cater to the star players and the weapons a team has.. nash on philly is no better than AI on philly.. and AI wouldn’t be able to dublicate Nash’s numbers if he was on the suns.. simple as that.. can you imagine AI in the 7 seconds or less system?.. a lot of points, yes.. but dimes?.. doubtful.. Nash on a 2001 defensive minded 6er team?.. please.. the only player that has a serious argument of being snubbed.. is the Truth.. and just the thought of IF kobe had help or IF kg were on the spurs… etc.. just the thought changes the basketball landscape..

  • tim

    Tmac?

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariqُُ

    I don’t really mind Nash being on this list. Even though I think Chauncey Billups is a better PG, because you can actually win with him running your team, as opposed to just accumulating gaudy regular season stats. But I don’t mind Nash being on this list. My biggest issue is that Nash came in ahead of Kidd. I don’t care if Kidd had microfracture surgery in 2004. He came back and still played at a high level. More importantly, those first years of the decade were prime Jason Kidd, and the gulf between prime Jason Kidd and prime Steve Nash is like the difference between prime Michael Jordan and prime Clyde Drexler, if not greater. And f*ck stats, I’m talking about real basketball, not fantasy basketball. Nash has proven, on multiple teams and with different teammates, that his style of play, while exciting and fun to watch, is not conducive to winning in the postseason. This does not mean that Nash is a bum. It just means that his greatness should be viewed for what it is: A “50/40/90″ type of greatness (i.e. “Regular Season” Greatness).

  • http://dsjfhklf.com Jukai

    I used to argue constantly with Allenp but now the dude is just the voice of reason here. I mean, read this:
    “I think SLAM did a good job with the list actually. Jason Kidd has had a better career and had a better early part of the decade than Nash, but I think if you look at the totality of their play, Nash played better for the entire decade. I mean, he was no bum in Dallas, he was a regular All-Star.”
    This is the truth. There should be no argument here. Jason Kidd is a superior point, but Nash had played better this decade.

  • http://dsjfhklf.com Jukai

    Tariq, feel free to laugh at me when you read this, it’s fine, but… I mean, Drexler was GOOD buddy. And prime Jordan/prime Drexler, I feel, is less than you’re implying. Drexler was… other wordly, he could do it all: score, rebound, pass, play (moderate) man-to-man defense, grab steals without gambling too much, swat a shot out of the sky… all while being a great leader.
    The only issue was, he did everything a bit worse than Jordan.
    If he played in an era where Jordan wasn’t playing, then I really think people would view Drexler in a totally different light.
    You know, so a Kidd/Nash comparison using Jordan/Drexler to me isn’t that insulting to any party.

  • Vince

    If we should be complaining about anything, it should be about D-wade being higher than J-kidd in the decade, not Nash.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    Tariq, what exactly has Jason Kidd won? I mean, he’s gotten to the finals in the EASTERN CONFERENCE, but what exactly has he really won? I don’t see any championship rings on his fingers, either. The difference between his success in the playoffs and Nash’s success in the playoffs is NOT as big as you think. If you only preferred winning, Chauncey Billups would be ahead of Jason Kidd, because he’s the only one out the three who has a championship (and a finals MVP).

  • http://www.twitter.com/mansonovic Mansonovic

    Man, The Seed just can’t let go of Nash stealing his precious Kobe’s MVP award, can he?

  • http://www.luketynan.blogspot.com litetitan

    WHen you think of Michael Jordan, whats that first thing that comes to mind? Thats right Steve Nash.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariq

    Jukai:
    Please go back and show me where I said that Nash wasn’t good. I never ever said that he wasn’t good. In fact, I think he’s great. However, he is OVERRATED in the sports media. For example, Bill Simmons ranks Nash in the thirties in his list of all-time great players. That is way too f*cking high. That’s all I’m saying. And Simmons is just one example. There is a MASSIVE media lovefest for a guy who is very, very good, who does plenty of things very well, who does things very few people can do, but who is also VERY LIMITED in a LOT of ways. In ways that hinder postseason success. People here have dinigrated Iverson and Dirk, and while both of them deserve some criticism for different reasons, at least they’ve proven that they can carry a team to an NBA Finals. Nash will retire without having COME CLOSE to playing in a Finals. And it’s not because Don Nelson or Michael Finley or Antwan Jamison or Amare Stoudemire or Shawn Marion or Stu Jackson or David Stern or Jack Ruby or the Opus Dei or geography or geometry or trigonometry. It’s because a- For all his undeniable brilliance, Nash only operates in a fast-paced, run n gun system which is easy to gameplan for in the playoffs. He would be rendered obsolete in a half-court set; and b- he gets eaten alive not only by Chris Paul (which is everyone’s fate) but also by the likes of Bobby Jackson.
    So, what I’m saying is, it if FOUL to compare someone like Nash with Kidd. Yeah, Nash is good, but Kidd is something else. Even in this decade. Recognize. And Kidd isn’t even one of my favorite players or anything, but truth is truth.
    P.S.
    You keep trying to compare Kobe’s 2008 MVP with Nash’s MVPs. Please stop. Chris Paul didn’t “get robbed.” It was a close MVP race, and CP3 definitely had a good case. If he had won it, he would have deserved it. But to suggest that Kobe didn’t deserve it as well is just absurd. Stop.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariq

    Teddy:
    LeBron James hasn’t won anything either. But I consider him to have enjoyed postseason success. Reaching the Finals is an accomplishment. That’s why they call it a Conference Championchip. It’s not the same as a ring, but it’s something. It’s a highlight in your career. What’s the highlight of Nash’s career?

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariq

    *Championship

  • http://dsjfhklf.com Jukai

    Tariq:
    First off, I know it’s all opinion, but Kobe got his MVP as a lifetime achievement award. It wasn’t close.
    Kobe: 26.2, 5.8, 5.0, 1.7 on 46% shooting
    Paul: 20.2, 3.8, 11.1, 2.6 on 49% shooting
    It wasn’t ‘close.’ Paul was one of the few people ever to score over 20 points on BETTER shooting than Kobe while also averaging over 11 assists, on an absolutely ABYSMAL team. While having worst stats and better talent surrounding him, Bryant won the MVP award because people said he had the better record… BY ONE WIN. A superior team with Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom… compared to Tyson Chandler and David West!!! Yet Kobe gets the MVP? That is downright criminal to me. Finally, I’ll reiterate that your definition of ‘success’ is vastly different than anyone else on SLAM.
    What does it matter that Iverson and Kidd got to the finals in a terrible, terrible, terrible conference… How is that better than Nash getting to the conference finals three times in one of the hardest conferences in basketball history? Would you view him differently if things went differently in 2007 and they advanced to the NBA Finals, even though NOTHING would be different about Nash? Is Kobe less of a player if he played on the 2006 Lakers for all his career?
    Nash has proven he can lead his team. Had he been in the eastern conference, he may have been in the nba finals three times. It shouldn’t make a difference. You should be able to tell a players abilities with or without player success.
    Not sure if you can.
    It was good debating you.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariqُُ

    First of all, those are his numbers from LAST year. His MVP year he averaged 28, 6 and 5. Are you saying those aren’t MVP numbers? When your team won the #1 seed in the most competitive Western conference ever (the only time a 48-win team failed to make the playoffs–Golden State)? Secondly, Kevin Johnson, for starters, scored over 20 and 11 assists multiple times and wasn’t even in the running for MVP.
    Look, Kobe is an MVP candidate EVERY year. That year, the Lakers were the #1 seed in the air-tight West…and I mean AIR-TIGHT. And the Lakers beat the Hornets in the 80th game of the season. I think that if the Hornets had won that game, CP3 would have been voted MVP. It was that close of a race. But the Lakers won. That was the ONE game that decided the conference. I think that also decided the MVP race. To equate that with Nash’s 15 and 11 MVP is laughable. And don’t tell me that no one had broken double digit assists in a while before Nash did it because Andre Miller did it in 2001.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariqُُ

    Jukai, getting to the Finals in a terrible conference is no less of an achievement than making it to the Finals in a strong conference. What happened to the Nets and Sixers when they got to the Finals? They got shellacked. What does that tell you? That those teams SUCKED compared to the West too. So it was an equal playing field. It’s not like Iverson and Kidd had some unfair advantage because they played in the East. If anything, they were robbed of an opportunity of competing for a ring because they played for such inferior squads. You think Kidd wouldn’t have LOVED to play for these Suns in his prime? But I won’t get into hypotheticals. All I’m saying is that the idea that getting to the Finals in the East was a piece of cake is a misconception.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariqُُ

    Jukai:
    Yes, I would view Nash differently if he had reached the Finals in 2007.
    Would you view McGrady differently if he had gotten out of the first round?
    If Kobe had played for the 2006 Lakers all his career, we wouldn’t have expected him to do much with Smush and Kwame.
    But if he played with Dirk and Amare and Michael Finley and Joe Johnson and Shawn Marion for eight or nine or ten years and all he could muster was three measly trips to the CONFERENCE finals, then yeah, of course I’d think less of him as a player.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Tariq
    Your last comment is the truth, along with your Nugget about KJ. But, Jukai ain’t gonna hear that.
    It’s not even worth arguing about anymore, since “overrated” is totally subjective.
    I will say this, I’m tired of people pretending that MIke D’s failures in New York are proving that Nash was the real reason the Suns won and not Mike D’s system. That’s basically ignoring the fact that Nash slummed when Mike D’s system was removed from Phoenix, and basically pouted until he got his coach fired in the middle of the season, then proceeded to fail to make the playoffs despite having the system he preferred re-installed. The Suns still run Mike D’s system, they just have another dude sitting on the bench. They run the only system Nash is comfortable running these days. And everybody who has watched b-ball understands that the Suns inability to still shine when the game slows down is what causes them problems in the playoffs.
    Two of the three times Nash made it to Conference Finals, his team got shellacked. He’s lost several times in the first round despite having a really talented squad. Let’s be honest about what’s happened here.

  • http://slamonline.com Blake

    That video is SICK. One of the greatest highlight films ever created. Kobe is the best this generation and with three more rings will be the greatest ever. You can’t argue it if he ends with more rings than 23.

  • Duvo

    Kobe
    Shaq
    Duncan
    Iverson
    Kidd
    Garnett
    Nash
    Nowitzki
    McGrady

  • Duvo

    …..honestly Vince Carter meant more to this decade than Nowitzki did….I’d replace him with VC……..IMO

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