Thursday, December 31st, 2009 at 3:21 pm  |  198 responses

Decade’s Top 10 NBA Players

The names that claimed an unnamed decade.

Putting it to a democratic vote a la this summer’s SLAMonline Top 50, the order was delivered and the dix were down. Sorry to Melo and Truth, but these cats were the best in show. The final tally proved it wasn’t even close.

Try guessing the Decade’s Top 10 without reading on. You can do that. But putting their accomplishments into words? Good luck.

Here’s our best shot at it….

No. 10: Jason Kidd
by Brad Graham

Understanding why Jason Kidd is one of the decade’s best is easy, especially because his recipe for success is straight out of a Rachael Ray cookbook… you take Hobble’s vision; a master chess player’s decision making; Jedi Knight anticipation; UPS’ delivery system; a drug dealer’s push; Mos Def’s tempo and Bernie Madoff’s thievery. Mix it together, let it cook under the Californian sun and serve it once every generation.

The superlatives rightfully spew out whenever Kidd’s discussed in reference to this decade because the consummate point guard’s dime dropping play is as effective as Kobe Bryant’s scoring, Ray Allen’s jumper, LeBron James’ drive, Dwight Howard’s glass cleaning, well, you get the picture, and have ever since Kidd playmaking prowess was unleashed.

Speaking of making plays like Santa does toys, it was during the ’08-09 season that Kidd became the fourth player in NBA history to reach the magical 10,000 assist milestone. That mark meant he’s now the only player in NBA history with 15,000 points, 10,000 assists and 7,000 rebounds. Not bad for a player who can’t shoot a basketball.

Equally important, on April 5 ‘08, in a game that saw Kidd hand out a season high 20 assists against, of all teams, the Phoenix Suns (more on them in a minute), he dished out his 10,142 career dime. This helped him surpass Magic Johnson for third on the all time NBA assist list. Of course his placement didn’t last long as Kidd leap frogged Mark Jackson early in the 2009/10 season for 2nd place on the assist list.

Remaining an immeasurable asset, J-Kidd joins Sam Cassell, Ben Wallace and Tim Duncan and as the most under appreciated talents of the decade. Don’t feel too bad for him though, Kidd did collect a staggering $135,822,835 worth of NBA Owner’s dollars this decade to make up for his troubles. So when it’s reported that he averages a triple double once every 10 games or so, just know he’s getting paid for a reason. Don’t worry, it doesn’t help me sleep any better either.

The comparisons to Tim Duncan also extend beyond locker room value as the PG finds himself locked into a similar battle (think Duncan vs. Kevin Garnett) with fellow virtuoso Steve Nash for the title of decade defining playmaker. A battle he’s handed over to Chris Paul and Deron Williams. However, unlike the Spurs’ superstar, Kidd found himself traded (twice) this decade.

In ’01, following charges for spousal abuse (in which he missed 15 games) Kidd was shopped after the Suns suffered another first round playoff exit (this time by the Sacramento Kings). Along with Chris Dudley, Kidd was sent to the New Jersey Nets for Stephon Marbury, Johnny Newman and Soumaila Samake.

Note: This trade would later allow the Suns to land Amar’e Stoudemire via the ’02 Draft, thanks in large to Marbury’s inability to play at Kidd’s level. To say the Jason Kidd for Stephon Marbury deal didn’t work out remains a gross understatement. As a result, the Phoenix Suns missed the playoffs for the first time since ’88, wining just 36 games. Marbury dropped 20.4 ppg but the Suns clearly missed Kidd who instantly turned his Nets from losers to Eastern Conference Champions.

Kidd’s well documented culture changing arrival in Jersey not only had all 176 Nets fans wanting to be seen out at East Rutherford, it had him receiving legit MVP votes. Much like Kevin Garnett’s impression with the ’07-08 Boston Celtics, Kidd was the League’s real MVP in ‘01-02 but was denied the honor (he finished second in voting to Duncan) because stats and fashion dictated that point guards don’t receive the Maurice Podoloff trophy. That was the thinking at the time.

In fact it was way back in ‘03 (before Nash become a dual MVP and everyone’s second favorite player) that Jason Kidd’s popularity hit the ceiling. The seminal guard not only graced the cover of EA Sports famed NBA Live series, he once again led his New Jersey Nets out of the fog that is the Eastern Conference to their second consecutive Finals appearance, either making him one of the greatest losers of the decade (like Karl Malone in the ‘90s) or a rare generational talent who continually overachieved and carried a mediocre roster / franchise (or both).

It was here in New Jersey that proof of Kidd’s worth became apparent. In a seemingly pedestrian 120-114 overtime regular season win over the Washington Wizards (in which he collected his 86th triple double) Kidd helped himself and former team mate Vince Carter chalk up another appearance in the NBA record books. The duo became the first team mates since Michael Jordan (41 points, 11 assists and 10 rebounds) and Scottie Pippen (15 points, 12 assists and 10 boards) to notched T-D’s in the same game and this was back when Tim Burton’s Batman was tops at the box office.

Vinsanity collected 46 points, added 16 rebounds (becoming only the fourth player in NBA history to record a triple double with at least 46 points / 16 boards, joining Wilt Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor and Alvin Adams) and yes, he even somehow managed to hand out 10 assists. Of course, who set up the majority of VC’s points… you guessed it, Kidd. He nabbed a then career high 16 boards, equaled his ’07 season high with 18 assists and slipped in 10 points (thanks to late free throw). Point to all this? Kidd would tell reporters that “I wish I could have a triple-double like Vince.” Guess he’ll just have to settle for being the active leader. Oh well. Let the record show that LeBron James is second among active players, a mere 80 plus triple doubles behind Kidd.

Following his impressive stint in Jersey, Kidd would later be reunited with his first NBA franchise, the Dallas Mavericks in early ‘08 thanks to a trade that included the two teams swapping starting PG’s. Note: This trade was due in large to the Mav’s embarrassing first round NBA Playoff loss to the Golden State Warriors and their inability to match up with the bruising Baron Davis. Speculation has also been made that Kidd wanted to bolt from Vince Carter but only ESPN’s Bill Simmons believes that. Of course the Mavs (with their superior supporting cast have continued to shine, thanks to Kidd) while the Nets continue their tour towards the Antarctic Circle.

While NBA success is apparent, it’s with his national team that Kidd’s showing is best represented. Collecting two Olympic Gold Medals in Sydney (2000) and Beijing (’08), respectively, Kidd finishes the decade undefeated when wearing the stars and stripes. Winning USA Basketball’s 2007 Male Athlete of the Year, Kidd became the nations definitive point guard, showcasing that no one orchestrates the fast break better. Much like his ’08 Dallas Mavericks’ reprisal, Kidd became Jerry Colangelo’s Team USA anchor.

Now that the naughties are (almost) over, we can sit back and appreciate Jason Kidd. He finishes the decade ranked 2nd in career assists with 10,337 dimes dropped (and given he never ran with a player of Karl Malone’s calibre, his career total impresses this blogger as much as John Stockton’s); 3rd in career and 2nd in Playoff triple doubles, respectively, making him the NBA’s accountant (aka good with numbers); 6th in total steals with 2,200 and counting (making him the decade’s master thief) and last but certainly not least, 29th in SLAM’s revised Top 50 of All Time.

Above all that, the subject of Jason Kidd has never really been about the seven All Star berths (2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2008); the four All NBA First Team selections (2000, 2001, 2002, 2004) or the eight All Defensive Team nods (First team: 2001, 2002, 2006. Second Team: 2000, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007) simply because his impact and play has never been based on individual glory. Kidd’s legacy and ability to deliver a bouquet of highlights is one of elevated team play (both on the NBA timber and for Team USA) but if you really want to make it about the numbers, a complete list of Kidd’s first 100 NBA triple doubles can be found here.

No. 9: Dwyane Wade
by Chris Deaton

Dwyane Wade is the champion of his class.

The finest hours of the deities are revealed under the brightest spotlights on the biggest stages. And although LeBron has his MVP and a defining game, Wade has his ring—something borne of defining games (3, 4, 5, 6).

At 27, his accolades project a legendary career: a Finals MVP, a superlative Olympic performance that keyed his country’s gold medal and five-consecutive All-Star appearances from 2005-09. He was honored as SI’s “Sportsman of the Year” in 2006, joining the likes of Russell, Kareem, Michael, Duncan and Robinson. Last season, he posted a career best 30 points and 7.5 assists a night en route to his first appearance on the All-NBA First Team.

And his résumé would be fuller were it not for a reckless abandon that has sidelined him 20 games or more in three of his six full seasons.

His play has frequently captured Jordan’s flavor, with exceptional finishing ability, a dangerous turnaround and coolness in the clutch. One of his game’s biggest knocks is his lack of range—but consider that MJ failed to crack 30 percent from three until his sixth season, and even then, it wasn’t an integral part of his game, nor did it need to be. Perhaps much is and will continue to be the same for D-Wade.

With Kobe in his 14th season, it’s possible that Wade, a player with less mileage, stands to inherit the mantle of the game’s best shooting guard during the 2010s. He is one of two men on this “Decade’s Best” list whose greatest years likely lie ahead. If that’s the case, in Dwyane Wade, the sporting world may be witnessing the evolution of one of the greatest players in NBA history.

No. 8: Steve Nash
by DeMarco Williams

Stephen John Nash is so good he’s actually underrated. Yeah, he’s been toasted with the two MVPs (‘04-‘05 and ‘05-‘06; only the third guard to ever accomplish the back-to-back) and six All-Star Game appearances, but there’s just so much more to the cool Canadian’s game than that.

Take, for instance, the man’s durability. Nash, 6-3 and 175 pounds if you weighed him right after the Christmas feast, averaged 77 games per season over the 00s. And then there’s his grossly overlooked shooting. Last year Nash became the only player in League history to shoot 50 percent from the field, 40 percent from beyond the arc and 90 percent from the free-throw line over three straight campaigns. Of the three achievements, Stevie’s long-distance dialing is probably the most overlooked. The ’03-’04 was the only season this decade the one-time Mav/full-time Sun didn’t finish in the top 10 in three-point percentage.

Still, when most folks think of the gritty guard, they immediately hark memories of him leading a fast break and delivering a crisp Spalding to Dirk, Amar’e or J-Rich over the years. And while the magical dishes are nice (The 35-year-old currently leads the NBA in dimes and is already in the top 10 for career assists), Nash is kinda like Michael Vick. See, the actual passing is only part of the fun.

Stevie has already amassed three 30+ scoring nights this year. Hell, Deron Williams, Tony Parker and Baron Davis have that many combined! He totaled over 20 in seven straight contests last year. He’s even had a couple of 40-point explosions over his hall of fame career.

Wait, did somebody say underrated?

So, yeah, call Stephen John Nash a great floor leader and assist machine all you want. He is most definitely that. Just don’t say we didn’t warn you the next time the decade’s finest pure point guard torches your squad for 30 of his own.

No. 7: Allen Iverson
by Mike Middlehurst-Schwartz

Say what you will about Allen Iverson – just remember who you’re talking about.

There are players on this list who had more successful a more decorated decade than “The Answer,” but few were more iconic. The imagery of Iverson is almost endless. Conjuring his name brings up memories of crossing over Michael Jordan (a little bit of a cheat since this moment went down back in the archaic 20th century), stepping over Tyronn Lue in the NBA Finals and the infamous practice rant which will go down in YouTube lore.

Iverson both lived and played at a speed that prevented almost anyone from keeping stride with him. And though his approach and style were polarizing, his results were undeniable – an MVP season in ‘00-01 and a litany of games taken over by the League’s favorite mighty mite. Toughness became his calling card after he proved time and again his willingness to play through a seemingly endless series of injuries.

Watching Iverson mature in the latter half of the decade has at times been an uncomfortable and awkward task. A short stay in Detroit was unsuccessful and an even shorter stay in Memphis was downright cringeworthy. But even though Iverson has been forced to reinvent himself – or at least his role – during his second stint with the Sixers, at least one of the decade’s best will get a chance to step aside on his own terms. Hey, it’s always sunny in Philadelphia, right?

No. 6: Dirk Nowitzki
by Ben Collins

Do you recognize him now? He has these big shoulders now — big, bounding arms swinging on refined hinges. They collect teeth now. As of about three weeks ago, this is true.

No homo. I mean, no no homo? Is that statement itself homohobic? Dirk, would you know? No, no comment?

No, he would know, probably, but he wouldn’t say. Just like his Twitter does. He’s found a way to say nothing by saying a lot about the only topic he knows everything about. And he can do this in two languages!

But reporters scoff. Boring! And we yawn and jot slowly, then walk away angrily.

Then some woman appears over the summer — someone who appeared to be cheating on him with his own cash — and we wanted to be angry so badly, we wanted to turn on him and punch him in his big, dumb, suddenly really-developed shoulders. But we couldn’t. We just felt bad for the guy.

Does that guy even speak English? People will yell this in sports bars. Even now. It will piss us off. It’s been 10 years. Yes, we will tell them, he’s perfect at it, just like he’s perfect at basketball, but we can’t write that. You can’t turn around one day and say, “Hey, listen, there’s a guy who’s been almost perfect at something for the past decade, we just haven’t been doing our jobs very well.”

But how can this person have not seen him before? Is he really that different of a player? In the late-90s and early-’00s he was this quirky, seven-foot, point-center with a jumpshot. Is he really this bruising, solemn, menacing, elbow-wielding, teeth-collecting, dare-we-say-it power forward?

It’s not like if you put Dirk Nowitzki and Karl Malone‘s career paths next to one another you couldn’t tell them apart.

Wait.

Do you recognize him now?

No. 5: LeBron James
by Sandy Dover

The manchild has now grown into a man, the myth has become a bonafide fact, and his legend continues to grow with each step and shot. LeBron Ramone James is arguably the most anticipated and storied player to play the game of basketball. That he came out of high school to be a No. 1 pick is merely a footnote for the player who may be the most skilled big perimeter player to ever play basketball (when his career is summed up).

Starting as a professional point guard, then playing shooting guard, then the “3″ spot and now a legitimate threat to teams when playing power forward, LeBron James is the epitome of an all-world player. Dominating with his Jason Kidd-like vision and passing, shooting fadeaway jumpers from the three-point line with relative ease, attacking the basket like a bull from Barcelona and leading the break in the manner of Magic, it’s no wonder he’s feared. Standing (and possibly still growing?) at 6-9-1/2 and weighing between 260-275 pounds (depending on the day), even Michael Jordan wasn’t as physically imposing.

But it’s not the stats that makes Le Cavalier so special–that he has career points/rebounds/assists of 27-7-7, or that he literally can do just about anything in a real-life game that you can think of (he ain’t called “Video Game James” for nothin’)–no, what sets The King apart from his brethren is that for all of his skills, for all of his physical and mental advantages as a basketball player, he continually seeks to uplift his teammates. He’s the new Pippen, he’s the new Magic, he’s the new swingman, he’s the new point guard, but more than anything, he’s the new standard. He has been set apart, and for all of his gifts, LeBron James is going to be the player of the next decade as well.

No. 4: Kevin Garnett
by Myles Brown

In practically any argument of “Who’s better?” someone will inevitably exclaim “Well if Player X was traded for Player Y, he could’ve done that…”. On behalf of reasonable people everywhere, I beseech you. Please, stop that shit. Things are hard enough to quantify and evaluate without needlessly complicating matters even further with improbable scenarios. The case for any player should be stated based on the facts at hand and nothing more.

Except for K.G. Why? Because of the Blazers, Spurs, Mavericks, and Lakers. Instead of marveling at his ability to drag a sub par team into the playoffs every year, Garnett’s critics chose to chastise him for his inability to single-handedly upset a title contender. It’s bullshit.

With all due apologies to the King, Kevin Garnett is the most unique player in NBA history. He’s a 7-0 forward with a guard’s skill set who can play and defend any position on the floor. He’s the only player ever to average 20 points, 10 rebounds and 5 assists for six consecutive seasons. He’s also the only player ever to average 20 points, 10 rebounds and 4 assists for nine consecutive seasons. And he’s the only player ever to have his prime wasted on a roster that boasted “All Star” Wally Szczerbiak as the second option.

Upon escaping to Boston, Garnett immediately removed all doubts concerning his elite status by spearheading one of the most formidable defensive units of all time. His versatility, selflessness and infectious desire completely transformed a lottery team into a champion. Had he not been injured last spring the Celtics could arguably be looking to three peat this year. The critics have been silenced and there is only one remaining question about Kevin Garnett.

What would have happened if he spent his prime as a Spur?

No. 3: Shaquille O’Neal
by Sean Ceglinsky

A good debate is good for the soul, although anyone arguing that Shaquille O’Neal should not be mentioned among the top three ballers in the business over the course of the last 10 years needs to have his head examined.

Let’s keep it real people, Shaq changed the game. His resume speaks for itself.

For starters, he’s won four NBA titles (2000, 2001, 2002, 2006), taking home The Finals most valuable player honor on three occasions (2000, 2001, 2002).

A 15-time All-Star, O’Neal made the team nine different times during the decade (2000-07 and 2009), earning the MVP award three times (2000, 2004, 2009).

Need more proof that his No.3 ranking on this who‘s who list is worthy? We can go on and on, trust us. In fact, a case can be made that Shaq should be higher.

For example, Kobe Bryant would have had an extremely tough time winning the first three of his four championships in Los Angeles without O’Neal, who averaged more than 20 points and 10 rebounds per game in each of his eight seasons with the Lakers.

Same goes for Dwyane Wade in Miami. A step slower, Shaq’s numbers were down a bit in 2006, but that didn’t prevent him from guiding Wade & Co. to a title.

O’Neal is hoping to duplicate the feat this season, with LeBron James in Cleveland, of course. Best believe that if Shaq is successful this time around, he’ll cement his name as one of the NBA’s best ever, regardless of the decade, or the century, for that matter.

Whether he wins another championship remains to be seen. One thing is certain: His trophy case at home is full of hardware, no doubt about it. Perhaps equally impressive is the collection of nicknames he’s managed to compile the last 10-plus years.

Some of his more mainstream monikers are: Shaq Fu, Superman, The Diesel, The Big Aristotle and The Big Shaqtus. Here’s a couple you might’ve missed: The Big Baryshnikov, Wilt Chamberneezy, and the most recent edition to the stable, Shaqovic.

Call Shaquille Rashaun O’Neal what you want, just make sure it’s one of the decade’s best.

No. 2: Tim Duncan
by Todd Spehr

Sure thing. That’s what Tim Duncan is – a sure thing.

In a decade that reeked of hype, praising guys before they’re worthy of praise, in some instances underachievement, perhaps the explanation as to why we the consumer isn’t enamored with Duncan is for one simple reason: We can count on him.

Duncan is the only player that automatically made his team a contender every year of this period. He is the only one to be the best player on four title teams in this post-Jordan era. And he has this Russellonian quality in that his greatness isn’t confined to something like an individual per game statistic; his career numbers certainly are not of the gaudy variety, but his title count is.

We hardly know a thing about him yet Duncan reveals himself in all his glory each time he plays, and therefore tells us more about himself than we realize. In a decade where our stars wanted to be bigger than the game itself, by staying within in it and concentrating on its basic premise – to win – Duncan became the rock in a forever-altering NBA landscape.

How will we remember the Tim Duncan of the 2000s? We won’t remember him for one moment, one game, or even one transcendent season. Instead, we’ll remember him for being there, for being great in some way, for all of it.

No. 1: Kobe Bryant
by Vincent Thomas

During the 2001 Playoffs Kobe averaged 29 ppg, 7 rpg and 6 apg. The Lakers would go on a 15-1 tear, razing their opponents on their way to back-to-back championships. The championship run included classic performances from Kobe, like his 48 and 15 in a Game 4 closeout of Sacramento.

He followed that up with 45 and 10 in the conference championship opener against the Spurs. He did all this while taking the mantle from Scottie Pippen and playing some of the most deranged and chaotic perimeter defense we’ve ever seen.

One of his most indelible images of a career full of them probably came in that Game 4 against the Kings. Shaq had fouled out with a good chunk of the fourth quarter remaining. What now? Even though Kobe averaged 28.5 to Shaq’s 28.7 that season, Shaq was still clearly the Lakers MVP and the League’s Top Dog. So, with Shaq out for the rest of a game against bigs like Chris Webber and Vlade Divac, the thinking was that the series might go on. But Kobe Just took over and then, after nailing a 10-foot floater to quiet the Arco nutbags, ran down the court with his arms by his side and palms parallel to floor making the “chill out, I got this” motion. In a lot of ways, he became Shaq’s equal at that moment. It was during this playoff run that the League’s best player, Shaquille O’Neal, began calling Kobe “the best player in the world.”

By the next season, as L.A. was on its way to a three-pea, folks were forced to start making distinctions. Shaq was the most dominant, Tim Duncan was the most valuable, but Kobe was the best…or whatever all the meant. By 2003, when Kobe averaged 30 ppg for the first time in his career, the arguments kinda stopped. Some folks tried to bring Tracy McGrady or Vince Carter into the discussion, but no sane person really disputed that Kobe was the best all-around player in the NBA. Again, Duncan and Kevin Garnett might have been more valuable and Shaq was still the most dominant force in the League, but nobody played the game of basketball with the brilliance, virtuosity, skill and brio that Kobe played it every game.

What he did in the ’05-06 season was downright preposterous. Not only did he average 35 ppg for the season — something that, other than Wilt, only Jordan (’87) and Rick Barry (’67) accomplished — but he averaged 43 effing points per effing game for ALL of January. To do that in the modern NBA is astounding. And, yeah, that’s the month he pulled off that 81-point game against Toronto that should go down as the greatest single game feat — considering all the factors — in the history of sport. That’s like rushing for 500 yards in an NFL game or hitting six grand slams in one baseball game.

There’s something really sad about the 2004-2007 Kobe, though, because it was during these seasons that his skill and athleticism met at a peak and it was also those three seasons when he dragged around a young, talentless Lakers squad that were relevant and compelling only because a martian played for them. Imagine if he could have spent those seasons on a contender. Before you blame him for forcing Shaq out of L.A. and making his own bed, you should check the terms on which Shaq has left Miami and Phoenix (and he most likely won’t leave Cleveland like Dr. J left the Sixers, either).

Kobe ended the decade playing with more savvy and wisdom than force and dynamism. More importantly, he ended the decade with an MVP in ’08 and a Finals MVP in ’09. So his 10-year resume looks like this: two-time scoring champ, 10-time All Star, three-time All Star MVP, league MVP (should have won in ’06, too), Finals MVP, four championships and consensus pick for “best player on the planet” title from ’03-’08 and arguable in 2002 and 2009, too.

Shaq may have been the NBA Kingmaker for the first half of the decade and Duncan may have been the most valuable player of the decade; but Kobe Bryant was the best.

***

For more Decade Awards, check out the archive.

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  • http://myspace.com/showbread Bryan

    Parker is good at scoring in the paint..and that’s about where it ends for me. My main problem with tp is that I think his drop off is going to be dramatic with age. Speculation of course but I see only one real outstanding ability with him and that one is speed. I mean look at how dramatically Shaq fell off when he lost his agility and he has another gift which is size but Parker doesn’t when his speed goes and you can keep him out of the paint he’s out of the league because he has no jumper and isn’t great at free throws and doesn’t scare anybody with his ability to distribute the ball. I remember looking at old stats and seeing a guy drop from 20 a game to 4 the next season or something crazy and wondering how it was possible and then I was introduced to Tony Parker dropping 55 on nothing but mad dash tear drops and I was like oh that’s how. I know I’ve said this before but TP is that guy on the playground that dribbles like a lunatic and throws up fade away hook shots that go in at an alarming rate but leaves everyone pissed off because he really just sucks aside from all the bullsh*t. That’s what Tp is too me. And I’m the orignal chauncey fan I have a 4 boston jersery from 97 but no way is he better than nash. Although similar due to his late blooming his numbers don’t compare.

  • http://myspace.com/showbread Bryan

    If Parker is half as effective at 36 as Nash is right now I’ll drop dead from shock. Sorry for the run ons I’m sort of driving haha.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariqُُ

    Again, what you’re saying about TP may be true, but in the end, if you drop off when you hit 34, I don’t think it’s the same as NEVER HAVING PLAYOFF SUCCESS.
    And as for Billups, I’ll tell you what, numbers don’t even begin to tell his influence on a team.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariqُُ

    Bryan:
    Was Nash have as effective as Parker was when he was 28?

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariqُُ

    *half

  • http://dsjfhklf.com Jukai

    Tariq:
    You increased the harshness level of the dialogue. I continued to increase it. If I began to get insulting, I apologize, but you don’t seem to understand the points I’m making, and whether that is my fault or yours, it does make me a bit trigger fingering to start flinging insults. Let me rectify a few things, and answer a few questions:
    1) My mention of Bernard King, Pete Maravich, and Robert Horry were about playoff victories, which you’ve taken a FOCUS on when bashing Nash. King and Maravich were all-legendary talents who never made any headway in the playoffs.. I’m asking if you think they are worse than Tony Parker and Chauncy Billups. I’m also asking if you think Robert Horry was better than Chauncy and Parker, because of all the rings he has earned. And don’t give me no Finals MVP garbage, Horry was JUST AS DESERVING of a Finals MVP in 2004 as Duncan was, but he was robbed.
    You managed to address this later, so you don’t have to answer this.
    I guess the problem is, you view success different than me (or as many of the people who ranked Nash over Kidd)
    Kidd made it to the Finals twice… in a drastically weakened eastern conference where THE WORSE team EVER to get to the Finals (Iverson’s 76ers) had just partaken in a spanking of the western conference. Nash made it to the MUCH, MUCH HARDER Wester Conference Finals three times, the second and third time mostly due to Nash’s heroics, taking over games scoring wise, passing 20+ assists, etc. etc… then losing to superior teams!
    And no, Tony Parker averaging 16.4-5.8 on 49% shooting is not better than Steve Nash averaging 18.4-11.2 on 53% shooting. Hell, I haven’t even been as impressed with Tony Parker as I have been in previous years. Teams have been giving him the Rondo treatment and forcing him to take jump shots, and when he does drive, he has to extend twice as much energy on it (since more double teams are coming to him with Duncan’s decline). This has caused a noticeable decline in drives that TP does.
    You think, if Steve Nash had Duncan on his team, he couldn’t easily get 20 points a game with the amount of double teams that Duncan needs? (his assists would go down, obviously, but never to 5.8).
    I mean, it’s just ridiculous for me to hear Billups and Parker are better than Nash. They’re not at his level. Not nearly. It’s fine to consider Jason Kidd leagues beyond Steve Nash, I know the Nets had that underdog role that captured a lot of hearts, but man, Billups and Parker? Point guards who are far worse shooters and passers than Nash? It sounds like a joke.
    I guess here is a question which will explain a lot about you: has Iverson had more success in the playoffs with just ONE finals appearance and no other noticeable playoff runs compared to Nash who has had three western conference finals runs in a much harder conference?

  • http://myspace.com/showbread Bryan

    Personal numbers? Yeah but Nash wasn’t playing with Tim Duncan. If you throw out Nash’s first two seasons you’re looking at a career 16 and 10 and we’re not having this talk. Tim Duncan is the only guy in the league that assured contention over the last decade. Dirk for all his ability was never that. Parker has had greater team success but that doesn’t mean he’s a better basketball player imo. He is not nearly as skilled . I mean nash is going to put up numbers until he quits because of his ability to shoot and play the pick and roll. I mean my theory on Parker has already happened to a guy who seemed on his way to super stardom and that’s Steve Francis. Francis put up great numbers but really never got better at basketball and when he got injured and he couldn’t get it done with sheer athleticism he was out of the league. He went from 20 7 and 7 to out of the league within 2 years. Parker has stayed healthy but even now you can see being a little banged up his production is way down and his team isn’t doing as well. Meanwhile Nash who is much older and has a bad back is lighting it up in a way most 25 year olds wish they could.

  • http://dsjfhklf.com Jukai

    You know what? Here are two points that annoy the living CRAP out of me:
    1) I am a huge Chris Paul fan. CP3, in my opinion, is far and beyond better than any point guard in the game right now. If he continues to play the way he is playing, he will go down as one of the top 5-10 point guards to ever lace up shoes. After him, I think DWill and Nash are in a fight for point guard supremacy (DWill may have it since Nash has lost a step).
    Yet, does ANYONE get PO’d that Kobe Bryant stole Chris Paul’s MVP that CP3 RIGHTFULLY deserved? No? No one? Well if no one is angry at Kobe, WHY IS EVERYONE ANGRY AT NASH?
    2) Everyone thinks Nash did such a disservice by stealing the MVP from Bryant (whom rightfully deserved it) and Shaq (who didn’t deserve it in the slightest, hell Wade was the MVP of that team) and people seem to continue to harp on that no matter how long time goes by… but no one seems to even remember 2007 when any chance of playoff success the Suns were going to have were STOLEN from them. People even justify it. It’s sickening and aggravating and makes debating these points seem like a broken record.

  • Kadavour

    Can’t let you knock Chauncey’s shooting, he’s a consistent KNOCKDOWN shooter. Success follows Chauncey Billups because he IS THE MOST CLUTCH PG in the game right now, and he’s big enough to rough up most point guards on defense. Look at Denver’s production right now! Defense at the PG position was the difference for them, as exemplified by the contrast of Iverson’s production vs. Billups’. He’ll never impress you with his court vision and passing ability, but he gets it done, and that’s all that matters. In terms of individual skill set, I don’t think Kidd or Parker or Billups can compare favorably to Nash, but his skill set doesn’t translate to Championship success.

  • sam

    But Nash makes normal players look good. Look at Boris Diaw, Diaw is garbage now without Nash. Frye is suddenly a three point shooter because of Steve Nash. Q-Rich played sick in Phoenix, but once he left, he was so garbage. Marion isn’t the same player anymore without Nash.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariqُُ

    Kadavour:
    Thank you.
    I’m not only saying that Nash’s skill set doesn’t translate to CHAMPIONSHIP success; it doesn’t translate to any type of POSTSEASON success. Yeah, it looks pretty, but it doesn’t get you very far, even on 62-win teams.

  • http://myspace.com/showbread Bryan

    That’s the one point when where we disagree Nash’s teams weren’t built for post season success not Nash himself. If Nash had a real deal frontline defender and a real deal shut down wing he would be infinitely more successful. But the fact is he plays with Amare Stoudamire who might as well be invisible when he’s not holding the ball looking to score. And the best defender he ever played with was a 6’7 Shawn Marion who put up guady stats but was never a shut down guy. I think people are so anxious to undermine Nash they actually fabricate how bad his defense is especially in crunch time. All people talk about is how Chris Paul did such and such against him and Deron Williams did this and that. But they do that to everybody and people only complain about Nash. There isn’t a guard in the league who can stop Cp from getting his 22 and 12 every night that’s why they’re his averages. When Chris Duhon drops 30 and 15 on him then we can talk.

  • http://myspace.com/showbread Bryan

    Not to say he is a good defender or even a mediocre one, but he is actually passable. Especially down the stretch he actually makes some plays even on the defensive end. He plays winning basketball but his team has never been prime time ready and the one time they looked like the real deal Horry hockey checked Nash and we don’t know how that series would have turned out if the suspensions never came down.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariqُُ

    Jukai:
    To answer your Iverson question, if you reach the NBA Finals, ESPECIALLY in the manner in which Iverson reached the Finals, then any questions about having postseason success would never come up. If Nash EVER did anything comparable to that I would have shut the hell up about him a long time ago. But there is a HUGE difference between reaching the Finals and the conference finals. And I don’t care if you play in the Antarctic Conference: A Finals appearance is a Finals appearance. There were some pretty good Eastern teams who never made the Finals, like the Bucks of Ray/Big Dog/Cassell. OK, so the East wasn’t as strong as the West but it’s not like Iverson’s Sixers beat the Wichita Rough Riders in the ECFs. Plus, the West was stronger, but Nash was always on loaded teams and top seeds. But his style of play just isn’t conducive to winning in the playoffs. Other teams slow down the tempo and boom–they lose. So yeah, maybe he is better than Parker…Bryan is beginning to convince me of that one. But no way is Nash better than Billups. Billups is BUILT for the playoffs.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariqُُ

    Bryan:
    Let’s not forget that the Amare you’re so quick to lambast averaged close to 40 ppg against the Spurs in the WCF, while Marion is a very good wing defender.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariqُُ

    And let’s not also forget that he also had Joe Johnson.

  • http://myspace.com/showbread Bryan

    Hey I like Amare , he is what he is though. And what he is NOT is a defender of the paint. If you watch the suns play you’ll notice Amare doesn’t go hard at all unless he has the ball in his hands. About Marion though, he was a good defender but he got torched by the great wings he had to guard the same way Nash gets burned by great point guards. Billups played on teams that were built to win in the playoffs as evidenced by the Pistons beating the Lakers in the finals when the Lakers were absolutley loaded. Nash has never played on a team like that, he played on all star teams. The pistons were like an olympic team that were just a cohesive unit. There’s a big difference between an all star team and an olympic team as we all learned in athens. Billups is good and he’s the one guy I would concede can be called a toss up in this debate because he’s a capable scorer and ok passer as well as a solid defender. But his best season of 18 and 8 isn’t as good as Nash’s 2 18 and 11 seasons or his other 16 and 10 seasons. For all the talk about how clutch Billups is, Nash is obviously pretty clutch himself. I think Billups vs Nash is a good debate for this decade based only on team success but from 2000 to 2009 Nash was better than Kidd and Parker by miles. It was Kidd until 2004 and then Nash took off and left Kidd in the dust.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    That’s the thing Tariq, the Suns were built and coached for zero defense. It also doesn’t help that Nash’s defense is horrendous and his help defender down-low in Amare Stoudemire is just as bad. However, I do think Steve Nash could have had just as much success as Jason Kidd had he played in the Eastern Conference.

  • http://myspace.com/showbread Bryan

    A pre prime Joe Johnson. If anyone on the suns was overrated though it was Marion.

  • Brownman

    Great List, i agree with it

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Nash is the most overrated player ever, he plays for the regular season, he did nothing with Dirk all those years in Dallas and Phz really did nothing. Nash got the white media love those two years, because Kobe was off that trial and the NBA was trying to create a Great White Hope. Also Kevin Johnson numbers are better than Nash and he never got MVP and Kidd had some great years and never got MVP. Nash over Wade and Kidd is just sad. He gets numbers in the regular season, because it doesn’t matter. Haven’t yall played with guys he play great when games don’t count, when they do, they disapear–This is Nash. He should have never got two MVP’s and that will cloud people’s judgement as a great. I was on the other website and they picked Nash as the point guard of the decade based off two MVP’s and great regualer season wins over Kidd and others. Kidd to me is ten times better than Nash, Nash cannot guard Eric Snow and it’s showing right now and will show again. AI should be higher, Billups had two great years with Detroit and fell off, people forget, his struggles as the point gurad, hurt the team those years, they did not make it to the Finals, I watched all those games. Also with Denver he gets credit, but their were alot of articles about him, not on Slam, but about his BIg shot name, the verdict was he is not a BIg shot. He to me costed Denver the series win over LA, with his dumb shot selection, trying to make killer three’s, that led to fast break points, and he didn’t run the team right in crucial points of the game. Nash off this list, Dirk should be 10 or off, Add Vince Carter, Tony Parker, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen or even Tracy McGrady over Nash and Dirk. Dirk came alive 4 years ago and Tebow/Nash should not be anywhere on anybodys top ten. WHAT IS AMERICA COMING TOO?

  • http://myspace.com/showbread Bryan

    Well the race card has been played which is my cue to exit. Its been fun tariq we should do that more often.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariqُُ

    Bryan:
    I just don’t understand how you can just ignore postseason success. Like, take Tracy McGrady. He’s won scoring titles and been on all-star teams. In terms of skill set, there’s not much that separates TMac from Kobe. However, if someone were to say that TMac should be #11 on this list, I would VEHEMENTLY disagree. A guy like Paul Pierce should be ahead of TMac, and not just because he won a title in 2008, but also because he single-handedly led his team to the ECFs in 2002 (OK so Antoine Walker helped). That beats not ever winning a playoff series.

  • http://myspace.com/showbread Bryan

    So you would suggest that paul pierce making the conference finals once means something but Nash making it three times means nothing? I can’t understand how you can ignore the talent disparity between the east and west. I mean the pistons were in contention every year but common opinion was whoever won the west was pretty much the champ even if miami and detroit surprised everyone. The west was much more competitive so nash can’t be penalized too much

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariqُُ

    1- I was comparing Pierce to a guy who never won a playoff series. Meanwhile, we’re comparing Nash to dudes with rings, Finals MVPs and multiple Finals appearances.
    2- You keep talking about how the East was weak and the West was strong. That only comes into play in the Finals. Because if you’re in the East, chances are, your team sucks too. And if you’re in the West, and you’re a high seed, it should mean that you’re competitive as well. But Phoenix never even get to a seventh game. San Anton brush them aside in five like they’re prom queens. And Dallas? Were they ever true contenders when Nash was there? Why didn’t they beat the Spurs until he left?
    3- Paul Pierce was on some awful teams that didn’t even make the playoffs and broke records for losing in Boston. He was all alone for a number of years. By the way I hate Paul Pierce.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariqُُ

    Maybe “hate” is too strong a word. I just find Pierce jarring to watch. Yeah, jarring. Like mango juice or James Joyce.

  • http://dsjfhklf.com Jukai

    Yeah, so Iverson getting to the NBA Finals against D-League teams is better than Nash getting into the conference finals three times in his career against teams far better than anyone Iverson faced in the post season.
    You know what, I’m done.

  • http://dsjfhklf.com Jukai

    Anddddddd Seed played the race card. Wow. Wow. You know, Larry Bird was really awful, but he was white, so…

  • http://myspace.com/showbread Bryan

    The mavs weren’t true contenders until they got rid of Don Nelson. I’m sorry but Steve Nash can’t be blamed for all the problems or success the teams he left had. Nash the player plays winning basketball , I mean he lifts his teams to heights they didn’t achieve before his arrival but he alone isn’t enough to win a ‘chip. Where was Dallas before he became their starting point guard? Where was Phoenix? Now before you say where was detroit before Billups , the question really should be where was Detroit before Rasheed Wallace arrived? Or better still before Ben Wallace because he was their identity not billups. Where have the pistons gone since Big Ben left? On the other hand the suns lose player after impact player and Nash keeps the Suns well above water do you really think channing frye and an effective yet OLD as f*ck Grant Hill would be as good alongside Billups? No matter who his teamates are he builds the team into winners. The same can’t be said for the other guys except Kidd. And Kidd didn’t do much his last 2 years in Jersey with a comparable amount of talent to his finals squads.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariqُُ

    Jukai:
    1- I can’t believe you’re comparing an NBA FINALS appearance to three conference appearances.
    2- You call the Sixers’ competition “D-league” squads, and yet you fail to recognize that the Sixers were themselves a “D-league” squad. I guess you think Steve Nash could have dragged Aaron McKie and Tyrone Hill to the Finals.

  • http://dsjfhklf.com Jukai

    Tariq:
    1- Yes, I am comparing three conference finals appearances to one finals appearance and NOTHING ELSE. I don’t see the big freaking difference. It’s one thing to say they never had playoff success, but three conference finals appearances is major, especially in an incredibly difficult conference.
    This is actually quite weird, because we both seem to think each other’s thinking is outrageous.
    You’re talking -one- more round. Like it’s some incredible difference. I honestly think be able to compete at a high level again and again and again is more important than getting to one level higher ONCE. That makes no sense to me. To me— and I’m sure you’re not, because I respect you as an intelligent and reasonable poster— it seems like you’re twisting things here to make Nash look like a loser. But bringing the ‘NBA Finals” to a higher level to make dudes like Kidd and Iverson (and guys like Stockton, Malone, Barkley, Baylor) to a higher level… I don’t know, it just seems like ridiculous logic.
    2- No, I don’t think Steve Nash could have dragged Aaron McKie and Tyrone Hill to the Finals. I do think Nash could have taken the 200-2002 Nets teams to the Finals and had as much success as Kidd because those teams were built for a dude like Nash.
    You do realize basketball is played with twelve man teams with five guys at a time, right?

  • http://dsjfhklf.com Jukai

    I’l digress once again to prevent confusion and say that Iverson and Kidd are both better players than Nash, definitely on a higher level than Nash.
    Billups and Parker can’t even touch Nash’s shoes.
    Tariq, out of curiosity, who do you consider your top ten most skilled point guards that ever laced up their shoes? If the question is too time confusing (it’s an annoying one), then don’t worry about it. Just trying to get an understanding of why you think the way you do.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariqُُ

    What does “most skilled” mean?

  • http://myspace.com/showbread Bryan

    Tariq : J J Redick. Duh.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariqُُ

    Bryan:
    I think Anfernee Hardaway was “more skilled” than, say, Kevin Johnson. But he didn’t maximize those skills due to injury. I want to make sure I understand Jukai’s question.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariqُُ

    Or take a guy like Vince Carter. Really gifted, not a great player.

  • http://dsjfhklf.com Jukai

    Tariq: Perhaps ‘best’ player is more appropriate.

  • mytiman

    While Kobe’s still playing ball, there’s no way in hell LeBron will dominate this league. NBA is Mamba’s world.

  • http://thestartingfive.net Michael Tillery

    SLAM is straight buggin’. Dirk over Allen Iverson? Dirk over Wade? Who won head to head between Flash and Dirk? What has Dirk done? I will say it again until history finally understands that Steve Nash is the most overrated athlete of all time. Yeah I said it.

  • http://dsjfhklf.com Jukai

    Michael Tillery: Yeahhh who do these white players think they are!!!

  • johnny

    Micheal clearly doesn’t watch the skill and IQ of basketball. Nash’s court vision is so good and he has can pass with both hands better than both. Obviously, everyone overlooks those traits because they aren’t exciting as Wade’s dunks or AI’s crossovers but they are equally important. He can also shoot better than both of them from anywhere from the court. Nash is a true leader as well as he gets his teammates involved and is the consummate pro. While A.I is still talking bout practice. Overrated?

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariqُُ

    Jukai:
    A preliminary list:
    1- Oscar Robertson
    2- Magic Johnson
    3- Jerry West
    4- Isiah Thomas
    5- John Stockton
    6- Jason Kidd
    7- Walt Frazier
    8- Bob Cousy
    9- Gary Payton
    10- Tiny Archibald

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariqُُ

    By the way, for what it’s worth, I changed my mind re: Parker. Nash is definitely better than Parker. But I still maintain that Billups is better than Nash. Nash may be a better playmaker, but if I want my team to win in the playoffs, give me Billups any day.

  • http://dsjfhklf.com Jukai

    Well, outside of Jerry playing the two for the majority of his career, that list sort of leaves me more mystified… It’s a very good list, I just thought it’d be different.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariqُُ

    Yeah, I thought twice about including West. Also, I keep going back and forth over Kidd and Stockton. I think it’s real close between those two. Although I’d probably take Kidd.

  • http://shawn-kemps-offspring.blogspot.com/ Tariqُُ

    Why are you mystified? How did you think it would be different?

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    Michael Tillery has a point. I agree that Iverson should be ahead of Dirk. Wade too.
    But Steve Nash is NOT that overrated. He’s a great player.

  • http://dsjfhklf.com Jukai

    tariq: I’d thought you’d choose winning-er players over talent. Hence, Robertson over Magic and Kidd over Frazier seemed out of place.
    I mean, if we’re talking about playoff success, Frazier was AMAZING in both finals, and really the only reason he didn’t win Finals MVP in 1970 was because of Willis Reed’s spirited four points in the beginning. Frazier played out of this world in that series.

  • http://dsjfhklf.com Jukai

    and yes, I saw every single game in that series. I was bored.
    To everyone: I find it very odd Dirk made it above Iverson, since they both pretty much have the same accolades (a loss in the finals, an MVP) but Iverson has the stats and the greater cultural impact so… I don’t know, it just seems like an odd choice.
    I don’t think Wade should be over Dirk though. This is about a decade of accomplishments, not a year. Despite Wade’s singlehandedly beating Dirk’s entire team, Wade only came into the L in 2003, and was injured for several years. Dirk pretty much played the entire decade with playoff success injury free. Along with an MVP, I’d say he had a greater decade of success.

  • sam

    bs Dwight Howard? And Lebron James in so no. 2

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