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Monday, March 1st, 2010 at 10:00 am  |  63 responses

Mike D’Antoni vs. New York Media

Had you stayed in Phoenix, Mike, you never would have had to deal with these kinds of headaches: “Mike D’Antoni finally showed his infamous sensitive side which we’ve heard so much about – via coaches, players and fellow media members – prior to Saturday’s pounding at the hands of Zach Randolph and the Memphis Grizzlies. D’Antoni went on a diatribe about his philosophy concerning when and if to foul up three points in the final seconds. I’m still not really sure if I understand his philosophy but D’Antoni took issue with the fact that I had the audacity to question why the Knicks didn’t foul Washington’s JaVale McGee seconds before McGee set up Nick Young for a game-tying three in final seconds of Friday’s overtime win … This is less about D’Antoni’s strategy and more with how he is dealing with the slightest criticism. On Saturday, D’Antoni grew increasingly agitated when he addressed the matter before finally looking at me and saying, ‘Oh that’s right, you’re undefeated as a coach.’ Good one, Mike. You’re absolutely correct. I have never had the privilege of coaching an NBA game and have never been in position to earn $6 million by making such life-or-death choices like deciding when or if to foul up three.”

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  • Flight

    Hahaha roasted, 1st

  • will

    Well it sounded like he explained himself judging by the first link, then that explanation was ignored in the second link by the guys who got his feelings hurt. A post under the second article said it all for me:

    “We don’t read the sports pages and blogs to see if you or your colleagues are happy. You should also know that we don’t terribly much care if a coach or player has hurt your feelings or embarrassed you.

    Stick to reporting news and attempting meaningful analysis and spare us the vendettas and pseudo-dramas.

    Besides, you’re clearly not the one to be calling someone else sensitive.”

  • http://slamonline.com Ben Osborne

    D’Antoni was a horrible hire when it happened, and he’s only gotten worse.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Yep, but everybody thought he was going to “save” the Knicks after Isiah.
    How’s that looking folks?
    The crazy thing is that Mike D still hasn’t been savaged to the same degree as Isiah and his team is less competitive with better talent.

  • http://www.slamonline.com T Money

    Amen, Ben

  • Ethan

    Man am I glad he’s not in Chicago. He should have his name changed to ‘Antoni since he doesn’t believe in D.

  • Tom

    So when can we make it official the Nash made D’Antoni look like a far better coach than he actually is?

  • T-Money

    D’Antoni is a spoiled brat. He even holds grudges against players to the detriment of his team’s success, which is downright stupid.

  • http://dsjfklf.com Jukai

    Tom: No, of course not.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Tom and Jukai
    We could make that argument if anybody ever thought Mike D was a great coach…
    I certainly never did. I remember getting into knockdown arguments with my friends about his lack of bench development, his horrible subsitutions, his penchant for randomly assigning players to the doghouse, his habit of complaining to the media, his inability to coach defense and his blatant favoritism.
    But, the man knows how to design an offensive system thats scores points and he’s done that in New York just like he did it in Phoenix.
    And Nash struggled without that system which is why the first thing Gentry did was install said system.
    Those are the facts.

  • http://myspace.com/brandnew Bryan

    Struggled to the tune of 15 and 9. Hmmmmmm.

  • NAS

    why does anyone think he is a good coach again?

    Nash, Joe Johnson, Amare, Marion, Q Rich and a good bench in their prime for 3 years and he got them nowhere, not even ONE finals appearance

    He is not on the level of jax, pop or even karl, van gundy, adelman etc etc etc

    He has nothing to add and should never have been hired in the first place

  • The Philosopher

    The New York media does this to guys. It takes a special kind of personality to deal with the New York media. Pat Riley was a maestro with them, but Isiah damn near…you know. D’Antoni, I personally like him as a coach. He makes scrubs play exciting ball. But he is a little childish, in my opinion, anyway.

  • http://dfkjlf.com Jukai

    Allen: You mean struggling as a second fiddle to Nowitzki doing 17-7 or struggling slowing down the offense and giving Shaq the ball while doing 15-10 on 50/40/90?
    Which struggling are you talking about?
    I wasn’t sure.

  • http://dfkjlf.com Jukai

    I mean, are you still going with your assumption that Duhon has RAISED HIMSELF DRASTICALLY in D’Antoni’s offense? When Duhon had a string of 20-something good games, you were patting yourself on the damn back just about daily. Now Duhon is out of the rotation in the same offense.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jukai
    Duhon is an alcoholic. His success was always going to be temporary.
    Let’s talk about David Lee, or Wilson Chandler, or Al Freaking Harrington. There can be no doubt that D’Antoni has an offensive system that encourages cats to drop buckets.
    And I can’t believe you and Bryan through up 15 and said “struggling what?”
    What were Nash’s averages his second MVP year? How about the year after that?
    Then he comes and throws up 15 and 9 and that’s not struggling? When he was putting up double digit assists and damn near 20 a game under D’Antoni after the first year?
    Well, ain’t that a shock.
    Are you both arguing that Nash wasn’t struggling mightly the first part of the year with Porter as the coach and Shaq on the squad? Did he not make an amazing improvement once Gentry took over and the Suns started running again?
    I mean, folks like to blame Shaq, but the Suns under D’Antoni had Shaq and were still putting up buckets and running and everything was fine. It was only after Mike D left and Porter tried to run a more traditional offense that you heard of a mutiny from Nash and his cronies. Well, I would characterize it as a mutiny, other folks just said he was protecting himself.
    I can’t believe the two to of your are rewriting history.

  • Rob

    If the Knicks are to succeed, D’Antoni needs to leave NOW. He doesn’t know how to deal with New York

  • http://dfkjlf.com Jukai

    Stop saying Duhon’s an alcoholic. That’s such an unfounded rumor. Duhon, at Duke, had a partying problem. There’s no way of knowing if Duhon was actually an addict, or just liked to stay up late and ignore his responsibiltiies. Dude wasn’t drinking at his house alone. Hell, it’s not even known if BOOZE was the problem.
    Outside of that, and some missing practices, there’s no evidence Duhon has a severe drinking problem. You get so annoyed when people throw out unconfirmed Iverson rumors, I don’t know why you ride with this one all the time.
    But hell, for argument’s sake, let’s say Duhon IS an alcoholic (highly unlikely)– couldn’t I turn around and say that Duhon’s inability is solely because of his drinking and that he could be averaging Isiah Thomas numbers if it wasn’t for his drinking? I mean, it’s such a crap point to debate.
    Secondly, I’m not saying D’Antoni’s system doesn’t encourage offense, I’m saying not everyone can jump on it and become MV-friggin’-P. To my knowledge, David Lee and Wilson Chandler are the ONLY people who have dramatically improved under D’Antoni’s offense in the Knicks, and it can be debated that both of them have improved their overall offensive game in general… How has Al Harington improved? He’s averaging the same points he had in Atlanta and Golden State but on worse percentages. How is that ‘improving under D’Antoni’s offense’.

  • K

    D’Antoni is one free-agency failure away from turning into the second coming of Don Nelson.

  • Ghost (of Mookie Blaylock)

    D’Antoni is not so much a horrible coach (except for the defense part, which he doesn’t even consider) but moreso a biased individual who lets his emotions conquer his judgement. You definitely want him to be in your corner. Case in point, Gallinari: completely overrated. Yet he starts in front of Al Harrington, who is THE KNICKS BEST PLAYER. THE BEST SCORER, PERIOD. Because he and Gallo’s dad were roomates or whatever, he lives and dies by this kid who is obviously overrated and cocky (guaranteeing a win at the 3 point shootout? How did that turn out?). Meanwhile he benches those he doesn’t like at the teams’ expense. Robinson’s outburst for 41 points was the clearest example of this, while Larry Hughes was also playing well before getting benched. Isiah Thomas had a less talented team and yet were better overall. Next year Harrington will make the All Star game in another uniform like Zach Randolph.

  • http://myspace.com/brandnew Bryan

    Nash had a career high 18.8 ppg in his second season under Mike D. The other seasons were about 16 and 11. So his difference in averages is miniscule at best. Al harrington was putting up 18 a game before he met Mike D and David Lee probably wouldn’t be putting up 21 and 12 but 16 and 12 isn’t slouching either. Nash made D’Antoni look better than he was, not the other way around.

  • http://dfkjlf.com Jukai

    Secondly, Nash was closer to averaging 16-10 and still did this on over 50/40/90 shooting… Nash actually scored less and did it on worse percentages in his first MVP year… while this may bring his MVP into question, let’s cut the ‘collapse’ BS out. Rewriting history indeed.
    Secondly, the only drastic change with Nash in terms of stats between Porter’s system and Gentry’s system is scoring– Nash went from 13 to 19 ppg. While this is noticable, you MUST realize that Porter’s system involved taking the ball out of Nash’s hands quite a lot– he tried to instill a sort of dribble-drive offense into the Suns, it was NOT a traditional offense. It involved swinging around the ball a lot, and running a lot of post and iso plays– neither of which are ideal for Nash. Do you think Johnson or Thomas would average their career numbers if you told them to handle the ball 50-60% less and run isos for Worthy and Dumars on the wing? I mean, the entire thing sucked, he brought this offense onto a team of spot-up shooters and a ball-controlling point guard. This was not a traditional offense, by any means.
    Just asking, how is Porter doing now? Oh, no one will hire him? Well…

  • http://myspace.com/brandnew Bryan

    David Lee at 22 put up 11 and 11 , how is it so far fetched that at 26 he could improve his jumper and put up 18 to 20 points? On any team under any coach.

  • http://dfkjlf.com Jukai

    Now no one is saying that Nash didn’t benefit from D’Antoni’s system GREATLY– he simply wouldn’t be MVP if he was still playing for the Mavericks. But maybe, just maybe, D’Antoni’s system isn’t THAT great, and Nash was just one of the few ballers on the planet to actually get the system to work and flourish? Huh? Maybe?
    Nahhhhh. Duhon would be averaging 20-12 if it wasn’t for the Jack Daniels, Sergio Rodriguez is gonna put up 18-13 a game, and if D’Antoni just -liked- Stephon Marbury, dude would be dropping 30-20. Easy.

  • http://fdjslfl.com Jukai

    Bryan: Players don’t just IMPROVE buddy. Put down the pipe!!

  • Boogie

    Arguing that Antoni’s system gets high volume buckets is foolish, because its true. As a result you will have more points, as well as assists as everyone is scoring more.

    HOWEVER much of the reason he can generate points hwerever he goes is that he ignores D wherever he goes. His teams save all their energy for offense and his is not exactly news.

    Secondly a good coach helps whatever team he is with perform above the sum of their talents. See Rick Adleman. D’antoni on the other hand is summed up as such:

    Worst start in knicks history, most points scored against in a half, most points scored by an opposing player 61, largest margin of a loss 50, worst defensive team ,55+ points in the paint every game, lowest amount of points scored by a knick team, out rebounded every game, 2-13 in close games.

    He also has shown childish behavior regarding his treatment of players and Pt and pure obstinacy in dealing with slumping players.

    Many of these issues simply cannot be blamed on personnel.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jukai
    Actually, I grew up near Duhon, played youth basketball with Duhon, and know people who are friends with Duhon.
    And they say homie has a drinking problem for real.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jukai
    So, you admit that under Porter, and not running D’Antoni’s system, Nash had one of his lowest point totals since he became an All-Star. And you admit that when Gentry took over, and re-intalled D’Antoni’s run and gun system, Nash’s average went back to 19 a game.
    And you’re arguing… What exactly?
    I wrote:
    But, the man knows how to design an offensive system thats scores points and he’s done that in New York just like he did it in Phoenix.
    And Nash struggled without that system which is why the first thing Gentry did was install said system.

    13 points for the former MVP who had been averaging right at 19 a game for the past two years is struggling. And things turned around once Gentry went back to what Nash and the rest of the Suns wanted, which was run and gun.
    What’s the argument here?
    Bryan
    Does David Lee have any post moves? Did he have a jumper last year? Is his jumper really that great?
    The answer to all of these question is “no”.
    What Lee does have is a knack for finishing pick and rolls, and a whole lot of activity. He’s a less talented version of Amare Stoudemire who hits the boards more.
    Nobody projected David Lee as a possible 20 and 10 guy. If they had, Isiah wouldn’t have been able to draft him so low. Same thing with Wilson Chandler.
    Either the other GMs overlooked obvious talents in both of those cats or D’Antoni’s system has allowed said talent to really flourish.
    And Harrington’s averages may be similar, but his play is not. He was not dropping 30 or 40 points with this regularity for any other squad. And he’s doing it despite D’Antoni’s horrible rotation.
    Y’all are really trying hard to downplay Mike D’s offensive system, and it’s bogus. Dude can coach uptempo offense. He just doesn’t do much else well.

  • Ronald

    The thing is with D’Antoni’s system, his offense is overrated and his defense is undderrated. The Suns during their prime years weren’t THAT bad with their defense. Especially considering the way Amar’e plays defense.

  • http://fdjslfl.com Jukai

    Allenp: Perhaps that his percentages remained the same, his shots lowered, yet his assists radically only lowered by about one a game, with a horrendously lower pace and a post player who under D’Antoni would not get even Stockton an assist the way he scored? Is that not a good enough point to prove?
    Once again, I ask you if Magic would still get 20-14 when the ball is taken out of his hands 50% more often. It’s such a bogus point you’re trying to push here.
    I don’t get your Al Harrington point either. if a dude scores 10 points one game and 30 points the next every other game, isn’t he the same effective player as a dude that scores 20 points every game? Are you even aware of what you’re saying?

  • http://fdjslfl.com Jukai

    Sorry, that should read *under Porter
    I also like how you’re telling me Duhon is an alcoholic on the Knicks because “you played against him back in the day” and “your friends tell you so”
    Good lord…

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jukai
    So, you’ve heard the rumors about Duhon. And I tell you that cats who know him, and are aware of his situation, who knew when he got drunk before playing games in high school, say he has a drinking problem, and you tell me that I’m just making it up? Why?
    You’re saying that Porter’s system made Nash worse.
    But your saying that D’Antoni’s system didn’t make him better? Or rather, not that much better.
    Interesting.
    Once again, my point was that D’Antoni’s system, which THE SUNS STILL USE, is great for scoring points. And helping players score points. And it benefited Nash greatly, to the point where he went from a solid All-Star to the only two-time, point guard MVP outside of Magic Johnson.
    But, I guess we just have different definitions of “greatly.”
    Nobody has offered any evidence that this is a lie.

  • http://myspace.com/brandnew Bryan

    Isiah had a knack for drafting good players. I’m not saying Lee would be 20 and 10 anywhere else. But 16 and 10 or 18 10 are not far fetched. The fact that he had no jumper last year proves only that he worked to improve it over last offseason. I think a strong finisher who can stick the elbow jumper, plus hit the offensive glass could be an 18 and 10 guy easily. I agree Mike is a good offensive coach, but don’t downgrade David Lee’s talent. He’s fairly athletic, he hustles, he beats the boards and he hits his free throws ,finishes plays and can stick the J out to 18 feet consistently. That’s not Mike D coaching him up that s his ability.

  • http://myspace.com/brandnew Bryan

    Nash’s numbers are slightly better what got him the MVP love is the 30 game turnaround followed by keeping pace when Amare’ got hurt. Anytime someone goes to ta team that has all the same players as the year prior and they win 30 more games, you tend to look to that addition as an mvp caliber guy. It always happens that way. What doesn’t always happen is a 62 win team losing its 25 and 10 fast break finishing post playing monster and still churn 54 wins.

  • http://fdjslfl.com Jukai

    I’m not saying you’re making it up, I’m saying you’re choosing what you want to believe. It’s a little amazing to me. Doctors swear up and down that Iverson faked his back injury and you call them liars but you believe that Duhon still has a drinking problem, despite there not be a single issue with Duhon in that category since High School. It’s very odd to me. You’re picky and choosy.
    Just like you pick and choose which sentences you want to read from my responses to you.
    Like where I said “Now no one is saying that Nash didn’t benefit from D’Antoni’s system GREATLY– he simply wouldn’t be MVP if he was still playing for the Mavericks.”
    Or where I asked you that, if Magic Johnson or Oscar Robertson played in a system where the ball was taken out of their hands 50% of the time, do you think they would still be putting up MVP numbers?
    Feel free to keep up the good work, Allenp.

  • http://fdjslfl.com Jukai

    If you need more clarification, Allenp, I’m not saying that D’Antoni’s system didn’t push Nash up into an all-legendary player status… it did … I’m saying that, unlike what your bizarre thoughts may tell you, you cannot plug any slightly talented player into the system and make them better. That’s an astouding fallacy.
    As we’ve seen in the Knicks, the majority of its’ players played like any NBA players that, if given the green light to shoot-shoot-shoot, would play like… one 30 point game followed by a large group of single digit games.
    Nash took the system and he made it work. Not just for him, but for everyone that has been plugged into the Suns since he came to Phoenix. THAT is what is so ridiculous about Nash. He took the system and he used it to lift the level of just about every single player around him. Yes, it was D’Antoni’s offensive system that let Nash flourish, but no one can do it like Nash can.
    if you don’t get it, I’ll explain this concept with handpuppets.

  • http://fdjslfl.com Jukai

    But yeah, a guy putting up 18-11 on 50/40/90 with 50-60 wins really should just kiss D’Antoni’s shoes, because he’d just be an average every year all-star without him!!!!!!!!

  • http://myspace.com/brandnew Bryan

    Without Mike D Nash would be an 17 and 8 guy forever. Scrub.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jukai
    Produce a doctor who said Iverson was faking. Just one. That rumor was created by a columnist in Detroit using anonymous sources whose credentials he never developed.
    I’m talking about cats who played on his high school team. I just said I played ball on the same team with dude, and know cats who stayed cool with him as he grew up.
    But, you’re right, I missed the “greatly.” So that’s my bad.
    If you admit he benefited greatly, and you admit he struggled with Porter, why exactly are you arguing with me?
    I never argued that D’Antoni’s system would only benefit Nash, in fact, you should know I’ve argued the exact opposite. How many times have we debated whether Deron Williams, Chris Paul or even Chauncey Billups would have shined in that system and possibly had more team success because of their defense?
    So, exactly what are you arguing?
    I didn’t say anything about everybody becomng MVP. I said Mike D can coach offense and his offense help players put up points.
    In fact, from what I can tell, this all stems from your contention that Nash made Mike D better. Which I disagree with. Mike D has always been the same coach, it’s just he had outstanding talent in Phoenix, won a lot of games, and put up a lot of points.
    When you do those things, people gloss over your miscues, even when they exist. It wasn’t that Nash made him look better, D’Antoni’s system is still great and has always been great. Nash didn’t make it better. But, having Nash, QRich, Marion, Joe Johnson and Amare doesn’t hurt any coach. Coaches need talent to truly shine, all of them.
    I’m bothered by this revisionist history that appears to be making the argument that Mike D really didn’t have much to do with the Suns success, it was all about Nash. That’s bogus. The Suns had the perfect system to take advantage of their talents and the League’s rules. On offense. Outside of that, they had the same flaws that the Knicks have, their offensive talent was just greater.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jukai
    Which players did Nash “lift?”
    What special qualities did Nash possess in lifting players that someone like Jason Kidd did not possess?
    Are you seriously arguing that Amare’s explosion and Shawn Marion’s efficiency were because Nash “lifted” them?
    Don’t you see that’s always been the problem?
    How can you prove that? How can you separate Nash from the system taht was also designed to increase offensive efficiency? How can you attribute David Lee’s improvement to his work ethic, but attribute Marion and Amare’s growth to Nash “lifting” them?
    You don’t see the problem with that?
    The thing common to both situations is Mike D, not Nash. Mike D was there in Phoenix, he’s in New York now.
    Why are people ignoring the obvious in an effort to deify Nash?

  • http://fdjslfl.com Jukai

    Oh god… the Detroit team doctors COULDN”T FIND ANYTHING WRONG WITH IVERSON!! Then he went to his PERSONAL DOCTOR and voila, a back injury. I’m not even getting into this.
    So yeah, you know friends who are SO POSITIVE Duhon is a massive alcoholic. You have such great inside knowledge of Duhon. Yet you never mentioned any of this when you were parading the fact that Duhon was playing soooo awesome for the first thirty games in D’Antoni’s system.
    but now he’s not and you’re using what your friends tell you as an arguing crutch. Glad your friends know more than the media, whose job it is to dig up this stuff which seems easily obtainable, since you seem to know all of it.
    I’m dropping this point. Until you can find me a valid source, other than your drinking buds, that shows that Duhon has had drinking issues since he’s been in the NBA, it’s an absolute invalid argument to me. I’ll apologize to your friends personally, if you want Allen

  • http://fdjslfl.com Jukai

    I’m ignoring the rest of your post because you obviously still didn’t understand what point I was trying to make then. Guess I’ll have to bring out those handpuppets.
    Oh, goody, a second post.
    First off, you once again bring Jason Kidd into this. Even though, I’m pretty sure I’ve told you a thousand times that I believe Jason Kidd can ‘lift’ any player as well or better than Nash can. Jason Kidd, in my mind, is one of the top five point guards of all time.
    Here’s my problem:
    -How can you cite Nash performing worse in other situations, yet ignore Marion performing EVEN WORSE in other situations
    -How can you cite Amare’s explosiveness as a reason Nash is playing so well when Nash’s best year came when Amare was out
    -Why do you keep bringing up Q-Rich (who sucks, by the way, and was only recognized as a good player when he played with Nash…) and Joe Johnson as reasons for why Nash was SO GREAT when he only played with these cats for ONE YEAR, and every year Nash’s stats have been better without these two players. It seems to me like Joe Johnson NEGATIVELY effected Nash.
    -Why are you probably getting busy ready to inform me once again how Q-Rich had ONE GOOD YEAR in Clippersville before he came to Phoenix, yet you’ve ignored all of Harrington’s good years before he came to the Knicks.
    I don’t expect you to answer any of these questions. You pick out what you want and ignore the rest.
    D’Antoni’s system has been AWFUL in New York. -Awful.-
    That really should be all the proof I need to discredit you, based around your logic.
    Butttttttttttt I’m going to get this argument is still going to go on…

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jukai
    Once again you have resorted to hyperbole when you lack comprehension.
    Read my intial post.
    Then tell me what you disagree with.
    Because you’ve already agreed that D’Antoni’s system benefited Nash.
    You’ve agreed that his system benefits talented players.
    You’ve agreed that Nash struggled without D’Antoni’s system in Phoenix.
    So, I ask you again, what exactly was your problem with what I wrote/
    The Knicks are top 10 in the league for points scored. Their percentages are not good, but they are putting up points and also handing out assists.
    This has been a hallmark of D’Antoni’s system, although in Phoenix when he had better talent he had higher shooting percentages.
    From the beginning I’ve labeled D’Antoni as a good offensive coach with a system that puts up points.
    Where exactly have you proven any of that wrong?
    As for the team doctors in Detroit, not only are back injuries notoriously hard to diagnose, but team doctors also told Grant Hill they couldn’t find anything wrong with him. Regular doctors can’t figure out what’s wrong with Iverson’s daughter right now.
    As I’ve always said about Iverson’s injury, he has never faked an injury in his career. Has never been accused of faking an injury. When he went out with the injury, he was STARTING. He came back from the injury and PLAYED. He was asked to leave the team once he complained about his playing time and coming off the bench. He did not shut things down for hte season becaue of injury. That’s is a blatant like. He shut things down becuase Joe Dumars deemed him a distraction.
    You cannot seem to remember this simple fact. It’s a shame.

  • http://fdjslfl.com Jukai

    It does NOT benefit talented players! It’s an offensive system where you’re told to shoot-shoot-shoot! You’ve nailed it on the nose, the Knicks are running the offense and they are top-10 in points and at the bottom of the field goal percentages! When Phoenix ran it, and still are running it, they were always top-3 in points and number 1 in field goal percentages! This is a drastic different! You can attribute it to Shawn Marion for some unknown reason, I don’t know, but the ONLY constant during this stretch where phoenix has been #1 in points and field goal percentages is Steve Nash. Not Marion, not Amare, but Steve Nash.
    Oh yeah, they’re also a 50+ win team every year. With all these roster changes. And the constant being Steve Nash.
    Once again, my point is you CANNOT PLUG IN ANY SEMI-TALENTED PLAYER INTO THE SYSTEM AND PRODUCE WHAT STEVE NASH DID! You can’t even plug in any TALENTED player and get what Steve Nash did! The utter failure in New York and the constant staff changes in Phoenix should be more than enough proof for what you are looking for, but you seem hellbent on ignoring this, pointing out that Nash’s points per game dropped as he touched the ball less when he left the system for half a year.
    I’ll add more hyperbole later.
    You cannot seem to remember this simple fact: Iverson lied about his back injury. I know they’re hard to diagnose, but five structural tests and the Pistons’ doctors can’t find anything? Uh huh… but that’s also the last time I respond to the Iverson crap. Feel free to write a thesis on it in your next response, I wont care.

  • http://fdjslfl.com Jukai

    Once again trying to sum it up so you don’t get confused: The system brought out the utter best possible in Steve Nash. Steve Nash also brought out the utter best possible in D’Antoni’s system, which is failing elsewhere.
    I’m also very proud of myself for not once mentioning Nash’s age in this entire debate. Kudos to me.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jukai
    While you’re patting yourself on the back, why don’t you point to the place in this debate where I said that any player could do what Nash did?
    Or that any players can run D’Antoni’s system as well as the Suns did?
    I’ll wait, you know I’m so slow to grasp complicated concepts.
    While you search for where I actually wrote that, why don’t you look up the concept of a strawman argument. I’m sure a genius like you will have no problem multi-tasking.

  • http://fdjslfl.com Jukai

    Perhaps it was an assumption I made when someone said “maybe we can say Nash made D’Antoni’s offense look good?” then you went into raving about how poor Nash was outside of D’Antoni’s offense and how great D’antoni’s offense made Nash look without ever mentioning a single word about Nash actually making D’Antoni’s offense look good?
    I dunno, maybe it was that?
    We don’t “agree.” Don’t string it together and make it seem like we do. We clearly still have different opinions on the effectiveness of D’Antoni’s offense, since I’ve claimed it has barely made any player better and you’ve claimed it’s made just about every player better… and we clearly still have different opinions on how well Nash plays OUT of the system, since you’ve described it as “struggling” and I’ve described it as “all-star.”
    And most importantly, you believe that Steve Nash was the perfect player to run D’Antoni’s amazing offensive system and looks like an MVP because of it, while I believe that Steve Nash made D’antoni’s awful system look great and in turn made himself look better than in any other offensive system he has ever run.
    It doesn’t take a genius to figure that out.
    But yeah, “strawman argument”…

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    jukai, once again, my first comment was:“Yep, but everybody thought he was going to “save” the Knicks after Isiah.
    How’s that looking folks?
    The crazy thing is that Mike D still hasn’t been savaged to the same degree as Isiah and his team is less competitive with better talent.”

    My second comment was:
    Tom and Jukai
    We could make that argument if anybody ever thought Mike D was a great coach…
    I certainly never did. I remember getting into knockdown arguments with my friends about his lack of bench development, his horrible subsitutions, his penchant for randomly assigning players to the doghouse, his habit of complaining to the media, his inability to coach defense and his blatant favoritism.
    But, the man knows how to design an offensive system thats scores points and he’s done that in New York just like he did it in Phoenix.
    And Nash struggled without that system which is why the first thing Gentry did was install said system.
    Those are the facts.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jukai
    First, where was I “raving”?
    Second, where is your proof that D’Antoni’s offensive system is crap?
    At what particular stop has D’Antoni coached where his offensive system didn’t result in more points for his team, and statistical improvements for several players?
    You’ve gone out of your way to call his system crap, but you’ve done very little to prove it’s crap. By what measure is his system crap?
    I didn’t string together anything. I politely reduced your hyperbolic arguments to easy to understand bullet points. And reiterated my own argument.
    The real problem is that you’re arguing against an argument that’s “implied” which in this case means you made it up in your head based on your own assumptions.
    If I want to take a shot at Nash, I have no problem taking a shot at Nash. When have I ever?
    This post was about Mike D and the new revisionist history that says he’s the worst coach ever because he sucks at all the things I noted.
    HE ALWAYS SUCKED AT THOSE THINGS. HE JUST PUT UP POINTS AND WON GAMES. NOW HE’S PUTTING UP POINTS AND NOT WINNING GAMES.
    That’s the only difference in Mike D’s coaching style. You have admitted that D’Antoni’s system benefited Nash greatly, but then you turn around and say the system is awful. But Nash was able to transcend it’s awfulness, while he couldn’t do the same with Porter’s system, and yet he managed to transcend the awfulness again when Gentry re-implemented it.
    So Nash is selectively able to transcend awful offensive systems that are only awful when run by Mike D, but perfectly acceptable when run by Alvin Gentry.
    Gotcha.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Or is it that Nash is able to transcend awful offensive systems except those that play to his strengths and maximize the talents of most of his teammates.
    Because, from what I can tell, that’s exactly what Mike D’s system did in Phoenix.
    It maximized the talents of Marion, Amare and Nash. It didn’t hinder Joe Johnson’s game, if it didn’t allow him to grow much as a player. And it was a wash for Q Rich. It benefited Raja Bell. Benefited Boris Diaw and Tim Thomas, although both of them only truly played well in contract years.
    Ultimately, if you’re a player who excels in pick and rolls, runs the floor, and can shoot fairly well, you can look good playing for Mike D.
    These positives are only increased if you have a point guard who can shoot and pass well.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    @ Allenp: Al Harrington, David Lee, and Wilson Chandler are all gifted scorers. Harrington can average 20 ppg on any other team given the right playing time and amount of touches.
    Screw the system, its the PLAYERS who make the system work. If D’Antoni’s system allows guys to get buckets and point guards to rack up assists, why does Chris Duhon NOT get any of that? Come on now.
    Also, Amare Stoudemire was very very good before D’Antoni came to town, and Shawn Marion was already an All-Star if I’m not mistaken.

  • therighttoremainsalient

    Further points to consider: Saying Nash ‘struggled’ under Porter is a stretch because straight numbers numbers hide the actual activity – of how the numbers came about. It would be safe to say though that the entire TEAM ‘struggled’ with this defensively culpable, slower version with more dribble offense. It essentially led to the teams turnovers increasing sharply (ironically, Nash’s dropped, yet so did the general impact he has of “creating the offense”, and having to just be a part of the offense) and reduced the number of scoring trips up the court. As we know, this change of identity, rattled the bulk of the players for the Suns that year so they tried to scrap it as quickly as possible. So what’s the arguments coming forth with this post?
    - Did Nash make D’Antoni better than he is?
    - Has D’Antoni’s lack of wins in NY shown up an inability to coach?
    . One point I would like to remind people is that, there are a couple of combinations that work in the NBA. Average coaches that can get on the same page as superstar players. Good coaches that can make average players ‘perform better’. Great coaches that keep a system and get any/all players that make their roster to buy into that system. The key to bare in mind, and know doubt alot of guys on here have coached from time to time is this; if you get a group of young guys buy into your approach to basketball and work at doing the things you like to see on the court, it will ultimately make you a better coach than you are. Think about that – 10-15 young or savvy ball players working for ‘ONE’ person (the coach) thats alot of man power in your favour… of course your going to look awesome. The thing with D’ANtoni?… He doesn’t have that right now. Nash aside, Stoudemire aside, 7 second offense aside…. he doesn’t have 15 guys working for him. Working for each other. AND THATS THAT.

  • http://fdjslfl.com Jukai

    I’m sorry, uh, where in your first post did you say Nash helped D’Antoni’s system…?
    Right… Where anywhere did you say that until I mentioned it outright…?
    Right… thanks for playing Allenp.

  • http://fdjslfl.com Jukai

    And exactly what are you trying to prove by saying D’Antoni’s system puts up points? I’m saying it’s an awful system. You’re telling me “no, it’s not an awful system, look, the Knicks ALSO put up more points.”
    What?
    The system calls for players to pretty much shoot whenever they are open, with a focus on passing the ball to cutters. Of COURSE it’s going to put up points. I specifically focused on the fact that the Knicks field goal percentage is AWFUL because they don’t have STEVE NASH presenting the team with far easier field goal attempts. I mean, I’ve said this thrice. This is why the system is crap– because you need an amazing passer like Nash to get the best out of all the shooting!

  • http://fdjslfl.com Jukai

    I mean, I really don’t get how you can just ignore the massive field goal differences between the Phoenix Suns and the New York Knicks. The Phoenix Suns right now have an amazing cast of Channing Frye, Jared Dudley, and 38-year-old-increpid Grant F’in Hill and they are still tops in field goal and three point percentages. This isn’t a team with Amare and Marion, which you also seem to be just ignoring! You know Nash has been on the Suns for more than 2004, right?
    And you’re so big on requiring PROOF (and then blatantly ignoring it a few times before responding to it when I give it to you) so why are you saying, with great certainty, that it was D’Antoni’s system that helped Amare and Marion? Have they ever played in D’Antoni’s system without Nash?
    Yet you’re positive when you say these things.
    Priceless.

  • http://fdjslfl.com Jukai

    Teddy: Duhon is an alcoholic. Allen’s friend told him so.

  • therighttoremainsalient

    Allenp – you do realise that Steve Nash is better than you right? Let me just hear you say it, so I know your in the real world.

  • MikeC.

    I want to see how D’Antoni does in NY with some better talent before we dig a grave for him. No matter how good your system is, no matter how brilliant you are as a coach, no matter how dedicated your team is, any coach that has to start Jared Jeffries is in trouble(now he’s gone for a one-legged TMac and I’m not sure if that’s an upgrade or not). NY’s roster is composed (?composted?) of lots of guys that would look great on a playoff team’s bench. The talent level isn’t there to be a good team. NY has a team full of solid bench players, and no real full-time starters outside of David Lee and maybe Wilson Chandler. Those guys are both excellent players, but neither is a franchise player or a main guy on a championship contender. D’Antoni had a good run in Phoenix when he had one great player and several really good players. Let’s see if he can duplicate it in NY when he has some more talent to work with. If he gets some talent and can’t coach it, I’ll be in line at Home Depot buying my grave-digger shovel.

  • http://www.hibachi20.blogspot.com BETCATS

    Isola v D’Antoni sounds like the plot of a non-succesful mob movie.

  • http://www.hibachi20.blogspot.com BETCATS

    ^not saying it would be unsuccesful, but it would probably not do too well in the box office. B list for sure. That being said…………………………B.E.E.F

  • MikeC.

    What’s beef? Beef is when you need an MVP to fall asleep. Beef is when your point guard is too drunk to cross the street. Beef is when you get Donnie Walsh to start your Jeep.

  • Jay-G

    Donnie Walsh escapes the NY media wrath for possibly missing out on a Jennings-Gordon backcourt right now? You mean to tell me in a point guard rich draft they came away with ZERO to show for it? Hell they missed on the huge NY draw in Omri Casspi. Yes I know the man cleared cap room and Zeke left this team a mess, but I think they will have egg on their faces like the Bulls did a decade ago.

  • Sam Guelil

    Mike D is on a one-year deal starting next year. There is no doubt NY will get 2 big free agents. If they can’t make it to at least the second round of the playoffs, then it will hopefully be King James that will choose his next head coach. As far as the whole media thing is concerned, he doesn’t have the temperament to withstand all this losing. It’s easy to coach and Yuk it up with the media when you have great players and you’re winning games. We all know that’s not the case right now. I am a long time Knicks fan and they’ve made it easy for me to look forward to 2010. Sadly, I’ve become desensitized to all the losing. I can’t even look forward to their drafts anymore because they screw that up also. Gallo could be a pretty good player if he can stay healthy and learn what a defensive stance is. However, our backcourt could be Brandon Jennings and Eric Gordon right now. Say what you want about Isiah, but that’s what it would have been if he was still there. As for Duhon, I guess it’s easy to pick on him for obvious reasons, but the bottom line is that he won’t be on this team next year. He was an average player to fill the roster for 2 years. We just have to bite this bullet a little bit longer. If NY is still in shambles next year then the fans have every right to say and do whatever we want.

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