Stan Van Gundy: MJ Not the Clear-Cut G.O.A.T
SVG has another opinion (shocker, I know), and says that Mike isn’t necessarily the greatest ever. Methinks this is the sort of thing that might make an enraged Jordan announce yet another comeback just in time for Game 3 of the Bobcats/Magic series: “Van Gundy says Oscar Robertson and Wilt Chamberlain belong in that discussion. ‘(Jordan’s) certainly right there with anybody and he may be (the greatest). But the people who say it’s obvious and everything else…I think maybe don’t know enough history,’ Van Gundy said. ‘I think one of the really tough things is to compare players from generation to generation. The game has changed a great deal. He’s the best player by far since I’ve been in the league. I came in the early 90’s when he was in his prime. I think in the last 20, 25 years, he’s the best. But to me, the two other guys I think of are Oscar Robertson and Wilt Chamberlain…the things they did.’ Van Gundy said television helped make Jordan an icon: ‘We didn’t have the saturation on TV and that,’ in earlier generations. ‘I don’t even know how many times Oscar Robertson was on national TV his entire career. Michael Jordan, people saw him from college and all the way through.”’
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I prefer Magic Johnson and his “showtime lakers”.
1) It’s easy to compare players from different eras, but it’s hard to place a player in a different era. Could Wilt really be this great in today’s game? Well, he could run the 100 yard dash in 10.9 seconds, broad jump 50 feet, high jump over six feet…. outside of Russell, no one was anywhere near that athletic. On the other hand, Wilt really had trouble guarding centers who strayed outside, how the hell would he deal with the Okurs and Dirks who stray all the way to the three point line? It’s not even easy to say Jordan could score more in any era. Could Jordan deal with the 70s where some teams made the ‘Jordan rules’ look like a kindergarden? Could he deal with today’s league, with zone defenses and constant charge calls? I mean, he played in one of the most physical eras in basketball, but that doesn’t mean he could just adjust.
2) @Kelly: And in the reverse, players of today’s era didn’t have to deal with Jordan’s rules. How do you think Lebron and Kobe and Wade would deal with hand checking and centers clogging the lane? The league was certainly slower back then, but I think that had to do with the RULES and not the athleticism. You couldn’t dart to the basket with Mark Eaton planted there twenty four seven.
3) Both Red Auerbach and Bill Russell have SAID Wilt Chamberlain was the better. Soooo… you know… not sure why people are debating this. Better scorer, better rebounder, better passer. Probably better one-on-one defensively too. Remember, the year before Russell came to the Celtics, they were the second best team in the L… and the night they drafted Russell, they also drafted two other future HOFers. So, you know, just think about that for a second.
4) I know everyone says there was ‘less talent’ back in the Wilt/Russell days, which is TRUE… but there were also less teams, but still an ~80 game schedule. That means Russell had to play Wilt ten times, and then Gilmore ten times, then Bellamy ten times, then Unseld ten times… so while there was less TALENT in the league, it’s not like they were playing 6’5 scrub centers for 78 games. They were just playing each other constantly.
5) I still think Magic is probably the best PG of all time (extremely biased here) but I mean, just THINK about Robertson here… THINK of how good his stats are. Dude was abusing legends like Jerry West on an average basis. And yeah, I hear the argument ‘the game was faster blah blah slow down for pace of today’s game’ all the time, and I hate it… because those guys never mention one thing: that assists were rewarded far less frequently back in Robertson’s days. Bob Cousy was OBLITERATING the league by averaging 7-8 assists a game before Robertson shattered that.
So, if we’re really adjusting Robertson’s stats, it’s not really 25-9-8, but more likely 25-9-14. If memory serves me correctly, if adjusted for the percentages of assists awarded to players per play, Robertson’s season assist total per game would only be behind Stockton’s one amazing season (note: i have no idea how this website came up with that number, so take that with a grain of salt).
But good lord, could you imagine a player dropping 25-8-14 in today’s league? F a triple double, I’d rather see that.
Also, Pete Maravich would have absolutely owned the league if the three-point line had been established, but he already did own the league. One a of a kind player. You know what’s a shame? SLAM didn’t even include the Pistol in their top 50…
And I’m pretty sure Jordan is the G.O.A.T.
But not because of the reason’s you bring up. And not because the other guys couldn’t compete with him. they could… it’s not about the championships or anything, it is, that mj just could take over the roles of all those other greats, he was much more versatile than most of those mentioned here. (except for magic imho, and he is propably the only one truly legitimate to challenge mj, and to my regrets, I never saw magic play in his prime, just know him from tapeings, you know, time’s not on my side in this matter)
He was a beast on the defense end, and come on, when it come’s to an arsenal of offensive moves, he was a killer, no matter if he needed to be clutch or not. That’s not to say, he was better than one of those others mentioned here in EVERY aspect of the game, but he was able to play them all. (Still when it comes to rings, despite of being the G.O.A.T., he wouldn’t have one without scottie, player’s don’t win championships, teams do) Again, I never saw Wilt or Oscar play live, but I know my history, watched some tapes etc. And Jordan’s ability to score, to create plays and room was incredible and unique. And I do think even today he would be a dominant force (not with his now nearly 50 years, but in his prime). Long Story’s short: he is the G.O.A.T. because of all he did, not because of certain aspects of his game. Just think of what Larry said about him after the 63 vs. Boston in 86. Larry knew all the others that came up here (damn it he’s even one of them)
What’s crazy is, MOST players in the 60s/70s had legit fades. I was watching a Bullets/Knicks game circa 1973, and EVERYONE was hitting insane fadeaways… Frazier, Debuascherre, Lucas, Monroe, damn even Elvin Hayes had a legit fade! We think Jordan/Kobe’s fades are amazing but from what I’ve seen, it was far more common place back in the day.
@Chi-Town Stand up!: You’re the biggest hypocrite on this website. Wilt can’t be in the discussion cause he didn’t WIN more than MJ… Russell can’t be in the discussion because he didn’t dominate like MJ… it’s one or the other man! Enough with your awful arguments. Yes, MJ is probably the greatest because of his combination of wins AND domination, but you’re making it seem like it’s sacrilegious to compare them. How about we talk about Jordan’s absolute HORRID lack of playoff success before his six rings? Huh? At least Jerry West ALWAYS got there.
@Everyone: I know the L got more athletic… but the rules have sped up the pace a lot. Oscar Robertson wasn’t athletic? Dude had to deal with people smacking his arm (no foul calls), centers clogging the lane (no three seconds), less spacing (no benefit to taking farther shots, so defense was less spread), hand checking (HUGE different), and a lot less screens (A lot more posting up because of the afformentioned rule, so screens were set less). This cuts down the speed of a player drastically. Athletics, because of training methods, travel methods, shoes, medical knowledge etc. etc. are clearly better, but people make it seem like Oscar playing in today’s league would be like picking up a dude from Burger King and putting him in the NBA. Not true. Do your homework, peeps.
Nah, just playing. I remember reading a quote from Red, saying Wilt was a better talent but he was happy to have Russell cause he needed a leader that Wilt wasn’t. From a five minute google search, I can’t find it, so I’ll try again later today (much later)
but I did find this gem:
“Wilt is playing better than I used to — passing off, coming out to set up screens, picking up guys outside, and sacrificing himself for team play.”
– Bill Russell, Great Moments in Pro Basketball, (by Sam Goldaper) p.24
And this:
“If [the referee] is calling [the game] loose then everyone gets away with more. So, you have to handle your own man accordingly, unless it’s Wilt Chamberlain. Him, you just don’t handle. He’s too strong. The best you can do is make him work hard.”
– Bill Russell, Go up For Glory p.100
“I had a habit of getting a running start toward the boards on every shot. Wilt used to zone it up and he’d be standing under the basket on most possessions. After I had run up his back a couple of times on made shots, Wilt gave me an ultimatum with that deep, deep voice.
‘Tamjanovich, don’t come in here anymore.’
‘Wilt, I’ve got to do my job,’ I responded.
Let me just say that I didn’t make that statement with a lot of conviction. After all, I happened to be talking to one of the strongest men in the world. Late in the game, I went barreling in to grab a loose ball. Wilt grabbed my arm and was called for a foul. As I was starting downcourt, Wilt wouldn’t let my arm go. He spun me around and said, ‘I told you not to come in here anymore.’
At that tenuous juncture, I threw a finger up into Wilt’s face and he let me go. When I got back to the bench, everybody was saying how great it was that I had stood up to Wilt.
But what I was really saying–and I never told my teammates this–was, “Please give me one more chance.”
–Rudy Tomjanovich, A Rocket at Heart, p. 77
Wilt – Most dominating ever. As for greatest, I love MJ as much as the next, but his legacy has been bumped up on account of Nike and globalisation of basketball. 6 rings, yes…I agree. I squealed like a little girl for all his moments. But Wilt…the best.
@Michael Scorn.. Please stop mentioning Lebron cause like I said he already not only lost in the finals, but he got swept! How is he ever gonna be better? Seriously!!! I argue with facts not opinions! Ya’ll should try the same!
Magic isn’t in the argument for one reason and one reason only. He took HIMSELF out of the running. Read his autobiography and you’ll see it yourself. Magic honestly believed he was in the same league as Michael until the ’92 Olympics but it was after one practice where he said he now knew who was the best, and it wasn’t even close. Larry Bird also called Michael the best…just not every night, which is a great way to put it.
Ask yourselves this question. Looking back at those Bulls teams, if you replace MJ with any of the players you’re talking about, do they still win those 6 titles? Do they still win 72 games in one season? I think the answer is pretty clear that they do not.
I’m calling BS. You’ve never played or coached basketball.
Also, Russell never lost in the finals. The Celtics in the 60s never lost in the finals. And, incase you want to get ‘technical’ with me and say you didn’t mean the finals, you meant the playoffs, I’ll just remind you that the Celtics won 9 out of 10 times in the 60s.
For someone who has ‘studied’ the game as much as yourself, you seem pretty damn clueless on BASIC BASKETBALL HISTORY.
Thanks, have a good day.
-Wilt, Barry, and Thurmond never played together. Good LORD that team would have been mint– although Chamberlain and Barry absolutely hated each other, so maybe not.
-Chamberlain came into the league at 285. He was well over 300 during the height of his career. So, Shaq was only about ten, fifteen pounds heavier. Add Chamberlain’s ability to jump higher, better timing on blocking shots, and his superior speed, and I’d say Chamberlain was more of a match for Shaq in the post. Hakeem I think could school Chamberlain with some of his moves. On the other hand, not sure if Hakeem could really stop Wilt. All three, along with Abdul-Jabbar are on a similar plane to me.
-Scottie Pippen was 27 on SLAM’s list. Just saying.
@Justin: I think there is an ARGUMENT that Magic is better. Personally, I’d choose Jordan seven days a week and twice on Sunday. But I think there is an ‘argument.’ That argument, in my mind, is wrong. I don’t think there is really anyone else you can argue who is better than Jordan.
But saying no one is on Jordan’s plane is ridiculous.
The only knock on Wilt’s legacy is that he “only” won 2 championships, like 2 chips aren’t a great enough accomplishment. Some people act like those two championships mean nothing.
@Jukai…You say Michael never wins with Scottie or Phil. Does Magic win without Kareem or James Worthy, or Pat Riley? Those types of arguments make no sense. Nobody wins without other great players on their team. Christ, the 60′s Celtics were stocked with Hall of Famers. They’d BETTER win with the lineup they had.
As for Orlando beating Chicago in ’95…really? Are we really comparing an MJ who had 17 regular season games under his belt after a year and a half off to a “normal” MJ? Please. What was the difference between the team that Orlando beat and the team that got swept HANDILY the next year by the Bulls? Michael having a full season and the addition of Dennis Rodman instead of Pete Myers on the team. ‘Nuff said
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It’s cats playin in the L now that wasn’t even BORN when Magic won his last title..So this generation of 24 hour promotion, info, internet and social networking that grew up on Jordan is gonna bombard you with MJ being G.O.A.T.
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Not saying Mike dons’t deserve to be, he most likely his the greatest..but I’ve seen and heard from people who’ve played and follow ball pre-Jordan, and they say ‘not so fast’..i.e Bill Russell said Oscar is the greatest he’s ever seen, INCLUDING Jordan. I remember he said that in a interview with BIll Walton..
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