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Monday, May 10th, 2010 at 9:30 am  |  77 responses

Joe Johnson Explains Frustration With Hawks Fans

Following a humiliating Game 3 loss at home to the Magic, during which fans in ATL booed their team, JJ did not appreciate their reaction. Yesterday, he offered a clarification of his comments to the AJC: “After Sunday’s practice, Johnson explained his frustration, that the level of displeasure in the seats was disconcerting. ‘I don’t think we’ve heard the boos like that in the five years since I’ve been here,’ he said. ‘When I first got here, man, there were probably like 100 people out there in those seats. I won’t say everybody is a die-hard, but they’ve shown us a lot of support over the years. In the heat of the battle you tend to say a lot of things. But it was tough, man. I was a little [ticked] off, but I am over it now.’ Johnson’s comments led to speculation that he was unhappy playing for the Hawks and was looking forward to leaving via free agency this summer. Johnson said that was taking the issue too far. ‘Don’t read in between all of that,’ he said. ‘I’ve enjoyed my years here. They’ve been great. We’ll see what happens Monday.’ Does he care if fans show up for Game 4? ‘If they come out and show us support, it would be great,’ he said.”

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  • Dirtybird

    It’s warranted, Joe… When they lose they can’t lose a close game, just start over and break up the core, with a new coach.

  • baltimorez best

    i wouldnt want people who supposed to have my back booin me to show up either i feel him

  • http://www.slamonline.com/ niQ

    I guess he’ll be gone this summer..

  • Baller

    Did you watch the game?? They hawks mailed it in, Josh Smith was standing around half the game. Booing for poor effort is more then ok with me.

  • http://manutebogues.blogspot.com cramzy

    Joe need to have a ” come up off them max dollars” game tonight. Him and J.O. really killed themselves this post season….JO more so but still

  • MikeC.

    I watched that game. The Hawks played like dogs. Lazy dogs. They deserved to be booed. Just like any other butt-stink team that mails in a home playoff game.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Hey Joe, if you’re looking for great fans who are supportive (read: actually come to games) and won’t boo…I know a place.

  • Myung

    On one hand, most of the fans that showed up this year weren’t around during those lean years (read: fair weather fans). I agree with Joe on that note. But ultimately Joe needs to grow a pair. People, whether they’re fair weather or not, pay good money to see a basketball game. If your home team mails it in during a critical PLAYOFF game, and you lose by 30? Our sports fans (for all of our sports teams in this state, except for maybe UGA football) are fair weather and front running, I admit, but that doesn’t mean they’re not knowledgeable. If you’re willing to soak in the cheers, learn to deal with the boos. It doesn’t happen often. Then again, how many times does the home Playoff team lose by 30?

  • Myung

    I’ve been going to games, non stop, through the roughest seasons for the Hawks (think Bob Sura, Antoine Walker, Al Harringon, Shareef, Ratliff, Big Dog, Josh Smith’s rookie year). I’m a die hard Hawks fan, and though I wasn’t at the game Saturday (Mother’s Day plans trumped Hawks basketball), I would’ve booed loudly if I was there. I’ve never been so disgusted with a Hawks performance, and I’m including the 43 point drubbing last Monday.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    @Myung… You can’t justify or defend being a fair weather fan. Those are the worst kind. They love you when you’re winning and are the first ones to turn on you and say that you suck when you lose. Who needs ‘em?! What most fail to realize is that Atlanta is extremely overmatched against Orlando. At every position, too. Even a knowledgeable, fair weather, front running fan can see that. Sure, losing by 30 points at home in a playoff game is disgraceful, but after Atlanta struggled to put Milwaukee away, did fans in your neck of the woods actually think the Hawks had a chance to win a game against the Magic who are ROLLING right now?

  • Myung

    I don’t like fair weather fans, just like the rest of you. Ttrust me, tickets were cheaper and there was more leg room before all these front runners who never came to games pre-Bibby and Horford. Believe me, it grates on me a lot, having to hear the rest of the country belittle Atlanta sports fans for being fair weather, but the truth is, that’s what this city is. We’re not full of hard core fans like the ones who show up for Lions or Steelers or Packers games. A lot of that has to do with the fact that there are a ton of transplants from other cities here, but again, this topic has probably been discussed over and over again so no need to re-hash it all. But to get to the thrust of your comment, you wrote: “What most fail to realize is that Atlanta is extremely overmatched against Orlando…” I want to know who this “most” is? Even the most hardcore Atlanta Hawks fans like me knew that we were extremely overmatched. If there is a single NBA team that would present our most difficult foe in a series (someone with a legit center, 3 point shooters galore, a fast PG, a good head coach), it would be our division rival Orlando (more difficult a match up for us than LA or CLE, although I’m sure they’d handle us in a 7 game series too). It’s all about match ups (look at how an athletic team like the Hawks gives an older team like Boston trouble), so I don’t think you’re offering any new insight, whether to Hawks fans or not, when you say Orlando is a crazy tough match up for us. I think fans who’ve seen us lose the past 10 or 11 games to ORL (save for that one game when Josh tipped in the game winning dunk) knew we were in over our heads. But it’s one thing to lose a series 4-1 or lose some tight games. It’s another when you lose by THIRTY at HOME. The UConn women’s team might win on the road by 30 or 40, but this is the 2nd Round of the NBA Playoffs. I KNOW Orlando is better than us in every facet of the game, but that doesn’t mean the home team needs to mail it in once the deficit hit double digits. That speaks volumes about heart and effort, and every paying customer who came to see good basketball from the Hawks Sat afternoon should’ve booed them. That doesn’t mean you hate your team; it means you’re completely dissatisified with the effort being displayed by the so-called 4th best team in the East on that particular day. As captain of the team, Joe Johnson needs to man up and deal with it.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    @Myung… I’m sorry, bad choice of words using “most”. Just trying to give the benefit of the doubt there. And I wasn’t trying to offer any new insight, just stating the obvious to try and bring things into its proper perspective. Moving on…it’s not all on Joe Johnson and I feel like he has a right to be upset. He’s the leader of that team and has played in what has amounted to basically an empty arena not only all season, but for 5 years. So how dare people come out and boo now? Also, I think your expectations are slightly higher than they should be. Remember, in Game 1 they lost by 43! Losing by 30 at home should’ve hardly been unexpected. Or boo-bird worthy. Would people have felt better if it were 25? Some nights, you just don’t have it and you know that it’s not going to end well. It doesn’t mean that the players “mailed it in” though. Sometimes you just have to take your losses and move on and hope to give a better fight the next time out.

  • Myung

    (sorry for writing so much; just venting a little) … One more thing about Joe: other than Horford, he is my favorite Hawk on this current incarnation of the roster so I don’t want to bash him too badly. A lot of folks have blasted him for various reasons, but I’ve defended him every time. Now? I’m starting to get tired of it. If we re-sign him, I won’t be mad at the Hawks front office, but if he goes to another team, I’m not going to cry about it. Joe Johnson’s ceiling is this: one of the top 5 SG in the NBA… a guy who is a very underrated defender and who is built like a rock and who hardly ever misses games and who can shoot the lights out on most nights. But his limitations are these: too much iso (probably not his fault, since our coach has no offensive plan and no teammate of his in the past 5 years could create his own shot, other than Jamal Crawford and Flip Murray)… not a vocal leader, which is sometimes needed from your highest paid player and team captain… cannot carry a team on his back a la Durant, Wade, Kobe, LeBron, Melo. Joe Johnson is a very good NBA player, but he is certainly not on that super star level… doesn’t attack the rim (very low FT attempts for a 2 guard) and doesn’t make his teammates better. Again, he is easily our best player, but his best position is as a Robin, not a Batman. Our ceiling with him is our Batman is the 2nd Round of the Playoffs. Maybe it’s time we parted ways. I don’t even care if he leaves. I just hope we at least do a sign-and-trade. Sigh.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    @Myung… Besides, Hawks fans seemed to have “mailed it in” a long time ago. The players should boo them for only coming out when Kobe or LeBron comes to town. Way to give Joe Johnson a reason to re-up in Atlanta.

  • Myung

    I don’t want to argue with you, Bryan, because I know you know your NBA and we’re just basically talking semantics here… but c’mon, dude. You wrote, “Sometimes you just have to take your losses and move on and hope to give a better fight the next time out.” That’s what we thought after Thursday night (remember, we had a lead half way through the 4th quarter before our offense completely died). SATURDAY was supposed to be the “better fight the next time out.” LOL Prior to losing Game 5 to Milwaukee, we had won (I’m too lazy to look it up) maybe 15 or 16 straight home games? I’m not saying our home crowd is amazing, but these Hawks way play better at home. I’m sorry, but I truly believe a scrappy team like the Warriors or Wizards, as bad as they are, would’ve put up a better fight than we did vs. ORL this past Saturday. You’ve got to know how different the Hawks are at home vs. on the road. We almost expect them to lose on the road (be it by 43 or 2). At home? They’re going to win or put up a fight, right? I’m sorry, but in all my years of suffering through some crappy Hawks teams and games (remember, we won just 13 games total about 6 years ago), I can’t remember a more embarrassing and sickening feeling than watching us lose on national TV this past Saturday. It’s one thing to lose on the road in a mid-March game at Staples Center or Amway; it’s another when you lose by 30 on your home floor in round 2 of the Playoffs.

  • Myung

    LOL Hawks “fans” is a relative term (and probably amounts to maybe 20% of the people in attendance), since most of these folks at Philips are bandwagon jumpers. That being said, these “fans” also work blue collar and white collar jobs to buy these tickets so this guy who makes $15 million dollars this season (that would be Joe Johnson) can earn a living. It’s true that a mail man or garbage man or the local McDonald’s worker doesn’t get booed by fans or gets called out by the media or bloggers, but if you’re getting paid $15 million and you are able to accept all the adoration and praises that come with wins and great performances, surely you can accept the occasional boo and hiss too.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Yo Bryan, regarding your first comment- I’d love Joe Johnson on the Bulls, and I’m as big a Bulls fan as you are, but let’s be real, homie. Some Bulls “fans” boo their players too. Over a damn Big Mac no less!!

  • http://Www.msn.com Beezy

    Atlanta got fairweather fans but they losing by 30 and game and Joe Johnson hasn’t had a good game since the middle of the bucks series

  • http://www.slamonline.com/ niQ

    I think anyone who spent good money for Playoff tickets, then watched a horrible game, would boo. Just my 2 cents.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    @Enigmatic… Somehow, I’m OK with fans booing over the Bulls not scoring 100pts for a free Big-Mac. The players get it and it doesn’t bother them. They even laugh about it. But they know they have the full support of their fans win or lose. Besides, you know the Bulls at least won the game when that happens. So that’s different.

  • http://coco-vents.blogspot.com Co Co

    Joe is averaging 12 points in this series. He deserves to be booed. And, for all the grief Hawks fans get, the team only lost 7 games there in the regular season. The fans were there. They didn’t sell out every night, but the fans were there.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    @Co Co… You know you my peoples, and yes Joe Johnson is stinking it up right now. Keep in mind though, in the first round you can pretty much always get by on talent. Atlanta was more talented than Milwaukee even though it took them 6 games to dispatch them. But the deeper you get into the playoffs, coaching becomes key and SVG is doing a masterful job. Real talk, if anybody should be booed, it’s Woody. He’s being outcoached and as we’ve seen, his team is being outplayed.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    @Myung… The Hawks did “give a better fight.” In Game 2. After being crushed. I fully expect a better effort from them tonight…but they’re still probably gonna get swept. But hey, be happy that at least you guys got to the 2nd round. I can’t say the same.

  • Myung

    I think you missed my point (I expected a better fight in Game 3), but that’s OK, Bryan. No harm done. And no, I’m not happy that we got to the 2nd round. It’s not like I expected to win a title this year, but we made the 2nd round last year and got swept by CLE. I expected us to be better this season, but so far vs. ORL, we’ve looked even worse than we did vs. CLE (and we have a better team this year than last year). Am I used to this sort of let down from my team? Yes. Am I happy about our season because we advance past the Bucks and got soundly got beat down by ORL? Not at all.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Joe Johnson can say what he wants. And fans can boo if they want. Fans act like basketball players should be grateful they show up, and players act like fans should be grateful they allow us to watch them play ball.
    Both sides need to get over themselves. The Hawks provide a service, fans pay for that service. If fans don’t like the service, they can complain. That’s the way it works.
    Joe Johnson is playing poorly, but honestly, nobody should be surprised. The offense the Hawks run is not conducive to him killing against a good defensive team like Orlando.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    @Myung… If you’re not happy with getting to the second round but you also didn’t expect to win a title, then what’ll make you happy? The ECF? Not gonna happen. As a Bulls fan who’s been from the mountain top to the gutter, take my word…be happy with what your team has accomplished. Trust me, losing to a Bucks team without Michael Redd & Andrew Bogut would’ve sucked much worse than this.

  • http://coco-vents.blogspot.com Co Co

    I agree with you Allen. The fans have every right to boo and Joe has every right to not like it. He shouldn’t act like it’s coming out of nowhere though. They’ve played 2.5 qtrs of good basketball this series. They’ve quit and they should hear about it from the people who paid to see them at least try. Obviously Orlando is a better team, but losing by an avg of like 30 points is inexcusable and they deserve to be booed. Fans are not stupid. They can tell when players are half-assing it and that’s what Joe and most of his teammates have been doing.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    OK, so I just went back and checked the scores from the Magic/Bobcats series and it just underscores my point about coaching. With the exception of one 15 point loss, Charlotte never lost by more than 9 points in the other three games…but Larry Brown is a GOOD coach. He can go whiteboard to whiteboard with SVG, and no way Charlotte has more talent than Atlanta. So that’s why I say boo Woody, not Joe Johnson.

  • Myung

    @Bryan. Yes, ECF or at least a better showing than what we showed last year and this year (through 7 2nd round games in 2 years, an 0-7 mark). Look, I’ve been rooting for the Hawks for 25 years. I’ve never been to the mountain top like you have as a Bulls fan (although on a side note, I am a huge MJ fan and rooted hard for those 90′s Bulls but that’s neither here nor there), so my top moments as a Hawks fan came in the late 80′s, mid to late 90′s (Mookie, Smitty, Deke), and now this three year run. We’ve had very low expectations for our pro basketball team in this city, but the reality is, this current team of Joe, Jamal, Josh, and Al is our most talented team, top to bottom, since 1989 (TWENTY ONE YEARS IN THE MAKING). So if you’re expecting me to be happy, after seeing my favorite team go through THREE re-building eras from 1999 to 2007 with nary a Playoff appearance (the Jason Terry-Shareef era, the Antoine Walker-Al Harrington era, the Joe Johnson-Josh Smith era) and then FINALLY, with the Joe-Josh-Al-Bibby era, making a playoff run (three straight years)… to be happy with a 2nd round flame out, you’re mistaken. Look, your expectations might be different, but you’ve also had 6 rings to look back on last decade. You know what kind of banners we have hanging in Philips Arena? Division championship banners. We are THIRSTING to get to that mountain top way more than you guys because at least you’ve been there. The last time we won a ring, I wasn’t born and we were in St. Louis. We’ve been through SO much nonsense (bad coaches, which we still have… bad ownership, bad GM’s), and to finally have your best squad in 21 years … you can’t simply be happy with a 2nd round appearance. You’ve got at least to be competitive and try to build on it for next year. Instead, we have an even WORSE showing this year than last year, even with a better team, and we are about to enter a transition year AGAIN (possibly losing our captain and adjusting to a new head coach, which, while I’ll be happy to get rid of Woodson, might be a bad thing if we end up with another no-name head coach).

  • Myung

    If we booed Mike Woodson for his coaching, we’d be booing him for the past 6 seasons and we’d be booing him for the entire 48 minutes of all 82 games + any playoff games. I do suppose that would make for some good comedy though.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    @Myung… Anybody that coaches “switching” as much as he does, deserves to be booed. Loudly, too.

  • Myung

    Oh, believe me, Bryan. I’ve done my share of Woodson booing over the years. Loudly. But you’re not blaming the players nearly enough. The NBA is a players league. There are some bad coaches, yes, but the players win games and lose games. I’d say only like 5 or 6 of the current coaches in the L would be considered “great” basketball minds. And even those guys have talent. I always say it like this: when Woodson’s winning 53 games, are we praising his coaching? Heck no. It’s the players. So when we’re losing by 43 on the road and then 30 at home, is it all his fault? No. As much as I dislike Woody, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. I don’t like him as a coach, but we don’t win because of him, and we don’t lose because of him. We might lose close games because of him from time to time, but when we lose by 30 at home, I blame the PLAYERS.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Myung, I think you’re downplaying the importance of coaching. You can’t possibly think that Charlotte’s personnel is better than Atlanta’s? Not in million years. Coaching counts. Yes, players have to go out and compete, but who do you think gets them ready? And by ready I mean develops a game plan that gives the team the best chance to win. You can’t let Mike Woodson off the hook and then place all of the blame on the players for what’s going on in this series. Besides, 90% of ATL’s offense is “Iso-Joe” anyway. Who came up with that? Certainly not Joe Johnson.

  • WolfNast

    Myung
    The NBA is a player’s league in the sense that unlike college, you’re not going to “scheme” your way to a championship if you don’t have the proper horses.
    That said, good coaching makes a HUGE difference in a team’s level of success with all other things being equal.
    Look at the Suns with Gentry instead of D’Antoni for proof of that.
    Honestly, the Magic are more talented than the Hawks but the gap is not as massive as the final scores have indicated. The problem is that the Hawks play horrible offense and this series they’ve been barely passble on defense.
    Mike Woodson cannot convince his players to stick together and sacrifice for each other for a whole game, every game. Scott Skiles can. Plus, Woodson’s offense is crazy unimaginative. It’s painful sometimes.
    I’m not saying Woodson is a bad coach, he’s not. He just needs to spend more time getting better on offense and motivation. Right now, with the talent on that squad, they should be more competitive. They should be competitive against any team in the league, in my opinion.

  • http:slamonline.com Allenp

    That last comment was by me, not by WolfNast.

  • http://brimartin13@gmail.com Brion

    Just remember fellas, at least ya’ll still have a team to boo. I know ive said it a million times but its tough to watch the playoffs and have to resort to rooting for someone elses team cuz the team you supported yur whole life was taken and renamed. As ive said before, The NBA cares….unless you were a Sonics fan.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    @Allenp… All things considered, when it comes to unimaginative offense, I’ll take Mike Woodson over Vinny Del Negro any day of the week.

  • Myung

    @Bryan, Charlotte’s personnel vs. Orlando, is better than Atlanta’s. As a whole, no. But vs. ORL, it is. Like I said way earlier, it’s about match ups (Chandler, Nazr, Tyrus). And believe me, I know Larry Brown is a way better coach than Coach Woodson. Maybe I need to clarify to both you and Allen that I don’t think coaches are UNimportant. I didn’t say that up there, but I guess I made it appear that way. Sorry. Not my intention. The difference between a good team with a great coach (one of the 5 or 6 really good ones) and a good team with an average coach … is a championship. I get that. But over all, it is a player’s league. Tell me this: how many rings does Phil Jackson have when he doesn’t have either Kobe, Shaq, MJ, or Pippen? How many rings goes Pop have without Duncan? Coaches are important, but players are WAY more important. I may be undervaluing coaches (I can admit that), but I think you guys are overvaluing them. All I’m saying is that people who blame our losses ALL on Coach Woodson are just looking for the easy cop out. You cannot blame a coach for every bad thing that happens when you don’t give that same coach credit for your successes. Does that not make sense? I do not give Coach Woodson credit for our successes, so I will not blame him for our failures. And allen, I respect your knowledge as a hoops fan, but you wrote, “I’m not saying Woodson is a bad coach, he’s not.” And I couldn’t disagree more strongly with that statement right there, and I’d dare you to find a Hawks fan who isn’t on my side on this.

  • http://coco-vents.blogspot.com Co CO

    Bad coaching does not excuse Joe being a no show in this series. You’ll feel differently once he disappears on your team in the playoffs next year. The fact of the matter is, he’s playing like crap. That’s on him. If you wanna be paid like a franchise player, show up like a franchise player. He doesn’t even look worth the mid-level in this series. He has sucked. Period.

  • Myung

    Also, Allen… “That said, good coaching makes a HUGE difference in a team’s level of success with all other things being equal.Look at the Suns with Gentry instead of D’Antoni for proof of that.” Sorry, but that is a terrible analogy. I think your POINT is well taken, but you could’ve chosen a much better analogy. Gentry is doing the same things D’Antoni did. The only reason the Suns had a hiccup was because Kerr brought in Terry Porter but more importantly, they brought in Shaq and slowed the game down. Once they traded Shaq, Gentry’s Suns did exactly what D’Antonis Suns did. Those D’Antoni Suns got screwed (by the League) out of a chance to do what this current Suns team is doing (Getting to play for the Western Conference title). But I’d say Gentry and D’Antoni are very much even when it comes to coaching a run-and-gun game.

  • Myung

    Btw, Gentry has been a coach in the league since 1995, and his winning % prior to coming to PHX was under 40%. Just saying.

  • no id

    Hawks fan here too since da 80′s..just to touch up on this..Atlanta has gotten better cause of there talent, not cause of Woodson. Woodson has taken them as far as he can..Players have tuned him out, his rotations our horrendous, always predictable offense(iso-joe), does not develop rookies..Believe me, there are coaches out there that look at Atlanta and say they would do a helluva lot better with that team than Woodson..Also at the same time ppl tend to overlook the ownership group is in complete disarray..losing money, they still got the legal battle going on wit Belkin..In order to play with the big dogs u gotten spend a lil money especially since expectations have grown..Players are too blame too but this falls on the coach when u continue to get out coached.. IMO

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Myung, Phil Jackson has only coached the Bulls and the Lakers, so that’s kind of an odd question. But at the same time, he’s lost with those guys too. And I don’t think Pop has coached anywhere but San Antonio, and he’s also lost with those guys as well. Of course players are important, but not to the exclusion of good coaching. Doug Collins had MJ & Pip and couldn’t win. Kobe’s first NBA coach was Del Harris who also coached Shaq in LA. Trust me, coaching makes a difference.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    And Myung, Mike Woodson deserves a great deal of credit for the success of the Atlanta Hawks. Go back and look at his record from Day 1 until now.

  • Myung

    To address your 2nd point (I’m copying this verbatim from my Facebook page), he won 13 games his first season. You can’t hold that against him bc he was given a completely revamped and young roster. Then again, you honestly can’t do much worse than winning 13 out of 82 games. The next year, Joe came in and the Hawks “doubled” the total to 26. Still a sucky year, but compared to 13, it’s a 100% improvement. And…in his next season, he won 30. And kept his job. Now THAT should pretty much tell you all you need to know. 13 the first year was historically bad, but you give him the benefit of the doubt. 26 his 2nd year wasn’t very good, especially after bringing in Joe Johnson and having the 2nd pick of the draft, which of course was completely mishandled by our GM, and a more mature Josh Smith and Childress should’ve won us more than 26 games. But again, it’s just 2 years, right? But 30 in year 3? 99 out of 100 coaches would’ve been fired after that 3rd year.
    But no… we kept him. And…then we jumped up to 37 and then 47 and then 53 wins. I’d say that has a lot more to do with Al Horford, Mike Bibby, and Jamal Crawford …than anything Coach Woodson ever did.

  • Myung

    You guys who see Mike Woodson from a distance and think he’s a decent coach are obviously not Hawks fans. I urge you to find 10 Hawks, no 5, no 3 Hawks fans who agree with you.

  • Myung

    And to address your point about Phil, look bro, you’re AGAIN putting words in my mouth. For you to say, “Trust me, coaching makes a difference” is making it seem like I said coaching makes no difference. I never said that. Re-read what I wrote. There’s a difference between me saying coaches get too much credit (or that it’s a player’s league) and me saying coaches make no difference. Again, I’ve followed hoops and played hoops for 25 years. I know coaches make a difference. I’m just making a point that we put way too much blame on them and give them too much credit, especially in the NBA game. That’s like me saying to you and Allen, “Trust me, players make a difference.” I wouldn’t say that to you because it insults your intelligence as ball fans (and I know you two know the game) and also, you guys never said players don’t make a difference.

  • no id

    Agree@6:04 post..Myung

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawforð

    Myung, I’m not putting words in your mouth. You asked how many rings had Phil & Pop won without MJ, Pip, TD, etc. I just illustrated to you how one coach can do more than another with the same personnel. As far as Woodson, look, I’m not saying he’s a great coach, but you give him zero credit for the improvement of the Hawks. You might be the first person I’ve ever heard say that. How do you not give a guy credit for going from 13 wins to 53 wins in 6 seasons, making steady improvement each and every season? Did you expect him to go from 26 Ws to 56 Ws in a year? But by your logic, at least the way it sounds to me, the Hawks don’t even need him. Just throw the guys they have out there now and they’ll win 40-50 games a season by themselves. Woody’s run in ATL may have come to an end (he’s taken them as far as he can) and a separation seems imminent, but I think you’re being extremely unfair to the guy. You may not have gotten the results you desired as a Hawks fan (however unrealistic) but the guy turned that program around and as he got better talent, you got more victories in the win column. IMO, he deserves a lot of credit for that. Again, I’m not saying he’s a great coach by any stretch, but give the guy some credit. Or not. Either way, his record speaks for itself.

  • http://www.stuffwhitepeoplelike.com Tarzan Cooper

    Can we just say the hawks arent a great team, woody is an ok coach and leave it at that?

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Because Tarzan, nobody wants to say Woody is an OK coach.

  • Myung

    LOL. Bryan… THAT we can agree on, bro.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Myung, talk to me if you guys get Vinny Del Negro.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    @Myung, I guarantee you with VDN on the sidelines, you’ll appreciate Mike Woodson then.

  • Myung

    Comparing Woody and VDN is like comparing death by drowning and death by hanging. It’s a lose lose.

  • Myung

    Bryan, you say I might be the first person who’s been that critical of Coach Woodson? You must not talk to many Hawks fans then. Trust me, bro, I’m not nearly as bad as some of the folks around these parts. I’ve met the guy a handful of times and think he’s a nice guy and by all accounts, he might be a terrific assistant coach. He is not suited to be an NBA head coach, at least not a successful one. How much credit do you give him for our 53 wins? 20%? 30%? I give him 10% TOPS. I credit talent (how many teams have a better top 6 than ours? Maybe 6 or 7 teams in the League?), health (we led the league in least # of games lost to injury), continuity (the starting unit has been the same for 2.5 seasons… how many teams in the League can say that?), and chemistry. To answer your question, yes, I believe this squad, without coach Woodson and with just your average run of the mill assistant coach, would have won 40 or 50 games easily. Again, if you think I’m being overly critical, you clearly haven’t talked to many Hawks fans in the past 6 seasons.

  • vtrobot

    myung, i was hoping for a lot better for you and hawks fans. dang. the hawks are exiting with the quietest of whimpers. holy hell. teams deserve to be booed by the fans when there’s no effort being made. period. all glory to mike scorn.

  • Myung

    Bryan, it’s been good debating with you, regardless. I can tell you’re a passionate and knowledgeable hoops fan. I still root for the Bulls (although not nearly as loyally as I do my hometown Hawks) so we’ve got that in common. I’ve invested way too much of my time and money over the past 25 years to be convinced over a few hours of debating, in terms of my stance on this team, especially Joe and Mike Woodson (and our respective opinions on them). I stand VERY firmly in how I view each of them, but I respect your opinions. Take care.

  • Myung

    vtrobot, thanks. Trust me, I was hoping for a better showing this series too. Sigh. Back to the drawing board. Again.

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/officerbarbrady what

    Co-sign Myung at 12:32PM — I feel the exact same way, except I WAS at the game and I DID boo. They deserved it.

  • http://www.euroleagueadventures.com Nick Gibson

    On the bright side, we’re still a cool video game team. So there’s that.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Actually Myung, you’re the first person I’ve heard say that Mike Woodson deserves no credit for the success of the Hawks. But that’s neither here nor there. Atlanta had an incredible season. “Iso-Joe” won 53 games for you guys, let’s not forget. They just run into an Orlando squad that’s on a roll. You guys want to boo Mike Woodson and Joe Johnson without taking into consideration their full body of work. Whether you like them or not, you should at least appreciate them for helping make Atlanta Hawks basketball relevant again. But everybody all of a sudden has tunnel vision and nobody seems to want to look at the bigger picture and that’s why this team is going to go right back to being bad again. You never appreciate what you had until you don’t have it anymore.

  • Myung

    Bryan, I’m actually a Joe Johnson fan. Don’t get it twisted. Co Co doesn’t like Joe. I do. Co Co and I both root for the Hawks, but I’m on Joe’s side (except for his comments regarding the booing). I’m just trying to be objective regarding his future here. Like I stated earlier, if he stays here, that’s fine. But the only thing I’ve accepted is… if he chooses to go elsewhere, I’m not going to cry about it. I DO feel like he’s done a lot for this team, and I, for one, am appreciative of it. Did we hit our ceiling with him as our leader? I think so. But am I unappreciative? Not at all. I don’t think you’re reading me very carefully. If you have time, re-read what I wrote early on yesterday about Joe. I keep feeling like you’re misunderstanding me (I won’t say “putting words in my mouth” this time). I am VERY appreciative of Joe and again, I am a fan of his. Coach Woodson’s? Not at all. But Joe? Yes. He is a limited star with a ceiling and is not suited to be an alpha dog, but he is a very good player and he chose to come here when most players wouldn’t (back in 2005).

  • Myung

    The thing that bothers me is that you’re trying to TELL ME how to be a fan, like you know what it’s like to be a Hawks fan. You don’t. You root for a team that won 6 rings in the 90′s and has Derrick Rose, Noah, and tons of cap space this summer. I root for a team that underachieves and scraps and claws for relevance. Believe me when I say I am a lot nicer with my words about Coach Woodson (this is because I’ve met him and like him as a person) than what a lot of other Atlantans say. You clearly haven’t exposed yourself to enough Hawks fans if you keep saying I’m the only one who’s ever said Coach Woodson deserves no credit for our success. I mean that in all seriousness. If you’ve NEVER heard another Hawks fan say that, I don’t know what kind of Hawks fans you’re talking to.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Myung, I’m not telling you “how” to be anything. If you don’t like Mike Woodson, that’s fine. If you want to give him zero credit for turning things around in Atlanta that’s fine too. I don’t agree, but it’s all good. You can be whatever kind of fan you like, but as I’ve said in defense of Mike Woodson several times already, he took a 13 win team and turned them into a 53 win team. That can’t be disputed and that’s all I’m saying. You (and however many others) may not feel he deserves any credit but he’s going to get it, and IMO, he deserves it. That’s all I’m saying and that’s all I’ve been saying. I don’t care how many people or “fans” feel otherwise, just because an opinion is popular doesn’t mean it’s right.

  • Myung

    So what you’re saying, more or less, is that you’re right?

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    No, I’m saying refusing to give Mike Woodson any credit for anything is wrong.

  • Myung

    Right.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Cawford

    Myung, I shouldn’t have to tell you this but, you can’t use an opinion as a counter-argument against something factual.

  • Myung

    What FACTS are you referring to?

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Cawford

    Actually, I’m only referring to one FACT. The one that says Mike Woodson took a 13 win team and turned it into a 53 win team. You may cite the improved talent, but whatever. As a coach, he’s paid to win games. I’m not saying he doesn’t have his weaknesses as a coach, and whether you’re satisfied with the results or not, he did his job in Atlanta. Any argument to the contrary (whether it comes from one person or a million people) is an opinionated one.

  • Myung

    What you pointed out is a correlation as much as a fact. Was Mike Woodson coach when we went from 13 to 53? Yes. You want another fact? I attended games when we won 13 games, and I attended games all throughout these past 6 years. So according to your logic, it is a fact that the team jumped 40 games in 6 years of my attendance of Hawks home games. I helped them improve. That’s a fact. Or…not. The correlation you presented is an opinion, Bryan. Don’t insult my intelligence, and I won’t insult yours.

  • Myung

    According to your logic, Bill Wennington can say he should be lauded for helping the Bulls win 3 rings. Fact: Bill was on 3 championship teams. Opinion: Wennington had a lot to do with those rings. Let’s just agree to disagree, Bryan. My thoughts on Woody haven’t shifted 1 iota in spite of all your words on the topic.

  • http:slamonline.com Allenp

    Sorry I missed most of the discussion.
    Let me say that Mike Woodson turned the Hawks into a very, very solid defensive team for most of the season. He convinced Josh Smith, who he has clashed with, to buy into the team system and concentrate on the things that make Smith great. He helped Joe Johnson grow as a leader, reined in Jamal Crawford and helped Al Horford develop.
    Unfortunately, his offense is unimaginative and stagnant. His rotation patterns can suck. He doesn’t rein in Joe Johnson enough. And, he cannot convince his team to show consistent effort every night.
    That’s why he’s an ok coach. He has some positives and he has some negatives. A great coach with the Hawks talent would have had a better showing.
    And Myung, Gentry is not just doing everything Mike D did. See, I always give D’Antoni credit for designing an offense that suited Nash and Amare perfectly. Unfortunately, he sucked at everything else. Gentry has figured out how to use bench players and get production from them consistently. He’s figured out how to get Nash rest. He’s held the Suns accountable on defense, and figured out ways to hide Nash, while at the same time exploiting teams on offense. Sure, there have been hiccups, but I think it’s obvious that Gentry has done a better total job of coaching than Mike D ever did.

  • Myung

    Bryan and Allen, I’ve been a regular on SLAMonline since 2002. I don’t get on as often lately, since I’m busy with work and have a newborn. Let’s debate on other topics later. You guys both know your hoops, and I enjoy a good hoops discussion. =) This Mike Woodson discussion is going no where. You guys might convince some folks, but you’re not moving me at all, and I can guess that most Hawks fans would agree with me.

  • http:slamonline.com Allenp

    God Bless you and your baby. As the father of two children under 4, I will tell you that the trick is sleeping when they sleep. Don’t forget it.

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