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Wednesday, December 8th, 2010 at 8:45 am  |  137 responses

Post Up: We Run This

Mavs make it 10 straight, while the Lakers hang on.

by Adam Figman | @afigman

Atlanta 116, New Jersey 101

Remember Joe Johnson? Nah, I’m not even talking shit—serious question. It just seems like when one of the League’s best guards go down for one-to-two months—putting a huge damper on his team’s entire regular season—fans and the media tend to make a bigger deal of it than they currently are. Anyway, I guess the Hawks haven’t noticed too much either, because they keep winning. Jamal Crawford (26 points, 8 assists) is getting more minutes at the 2, and he’s capitalizing, but it was Josh Smith who carried Atlanta last night with 34 points (14-16 from the field) and 7 assists. They’ve been sliding J-Smoove down to the 3, and starting Jason Collins at the 5, and apparently it’s working. Al Horford (24 points, 10 boards) has also been playing great. Bropez led the Nets with 24, but there was little defensive effort coming from his squad, and the Hawks took advantage, scoring 116 points off a 60.3 percent shooting performance.

Philadelphia 117, Cleveland 97

Both teams shot 50 percent or higher, but it was Philly who prevailed, utilizing a well-rounded effort (seven players scored in double figures) led by Thad Young’s 26 points and 11 boards. The Sixers have now won four of five, which means tomorrow’s nationally televised game against Boston might actually showcase some competition—though I wouldn’t count on it. The loss was the Cavs’ fifth straight, and their Lottery odds seem to be improving every night. No shots.

Charlotte 100, Denver 98

This would’ve been a cool story: George Karl, in the state where he played college ball, coaching against his good friend Larry Brown, gets his 1,000th win as an NBA coach. Unfortunately, it wasn’t meant to be. These two battled for the full 48, and with the Bobcats up two in the final quarter, Chauncey Billups grabbed a rebound with seven seconds remaining and pushed the ball up the court. Karl elected not to call a timeout, hoping the fast break would present a better opportunity, but it didn’t, and Billups forced a jumper from 20 or so feet away that rimmed out as the clock expired. Stephen Jackson led the ‘Cats with 23, and his stat line also included 9 boards, 7 dimes and 5 threes. Karl will go for 1,000 again tonight in Boston.

Houston 97, Detroit 83

After a rocky start to ’10-11, Houston has now won three out of four, and seems to be putting some things together and looking to make a little run. They slowly crept ahead of Detroit last night, and took a 10-point lead into the fourth that they protected well. Luis Scola held my fantasy team down with 35 points and 12 rebounds, while Kyle Lowry contributed 22 points, 12 dimes and 6 steals. The Rockets are off until Friday, when they’ll be in Milwaukee.

Dallas 105, Golden State 100

Another close one for the Mavs, but they stepped up in the fourth quarter to bring home their 10th straight. Dirk Nowitzki scored 25 points, blocked 4, and drained a few clutch hoops, while Jason Terry’s Sixth Man of the Year campaign (peep the Polladaday) continued, as he went for 20 points on 8-12 shooting. Stephen Curry’s 21 points led the Warriors, who put up a really strong effort that would’ve defeated most teams that aren’t amidst double-digit winning streaks.

Portland 106, Phoenix 99

I don’t know how else to say this: The Trail Blazers are weird as hell. They disappear against weak opponents and have no clear-cut superstar (Brandon Roy has struggled with injuries and hasn’t really brought it yet), but they’ll randomly step up without warning to—somehow—take down some top-notch squads. Last night they defeated the high-octane Suns, who shot over 50 percent and got a 24-point, 15-assist performance from point man Steve Nash. You see! I don’t know. Wesley Matthews led Portland with 24, while LaMarcus Aldridge and Roy each went for 20.

L.A. Lakers 115, Washington 108

After ending their four-game losing streak with a win against Sacramento a few days back, the Lakers continued their positive turnaround with a victory over the Wiz. L.A. brought a 13-point lead into halftime, and the Wiz clawed back in the third, but Kobe and Co. hit a variety of big shots to seal things up in the fourth. Kobe Bryant dropped 32 and Lamar Odom had 24, though Washington put up an impressive effort; John Wall had 14 dimes to go with his 22 points, Nick Young scored a strong 30 spot, and Gilbert Arenas put in 23. The Wizards fell to 6-14 with the loss, and have still yet to earn a W away from their home court.

Performance of the Night: Luis Scola: 35 points, 12 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 block.
Moment of the Night: Chauncey Billups coming thiiis close to hitting that jumper and forcing OT makes for a solid MOTN, but since I’ve got a video of Nick Young’s acrobatics, we’ll let the two of ‘em share it. Layupadaday! Check it:

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  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Damn Nick Young!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    That Lakers-Wizards game was pretty exciting, Javale McGee has crazy hops, but everybody already knew that. John Wall blocked Kobe shots pretty hard on one play. Speaking about the Mamba, he looked like the best player in the NBA by far last night. His array of moves is just incredible. No disrespect to LeBron (he’s phenomonal) but when LeBron tried a turnaround jumper a couple of games ago (way off, it can happen) I realized how special Kobe is, I mean he hits that shot like 3 times a game and it looks so easy. Incredible. His foot work? Nobody can match it. Wall is very good, but the talk of him surpassing Drose in the near future, I don’t see it.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    Who’s voting for Blake Griffin at the PF for the West? (ASG ofcourse)

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    Watching highlights is awesome, but it’s way more fun to see it happen when you’re actually watching the game, because now, you already know something is about to happen. When you watch the game and you see people shooting some bricks, some bad turnovers and all of sudden somebody like Nick Young pulls this trick out of his afro, it brings you out of your seat.

  • Anthony

    Jahmai, co-sign on Kobe. The real question is: who do you vote for center in the West ? I wish they would have put Pau in the center section cause i don’t want to vote for Okafor. This is just sad. And 3 billions chineese people are still gonna vote for Ming anyway, this is even more sad.

  • http://www.twitter.com/hurstysyd Hursty

    Lakers vs. Wiz was great to watch.
    Kyle Lowry has been an absolute boss the last 2 weeks. He’s even hitting multiple 3′s per game, which wasn’t in his reportoire last year at all. Not just stat wise, but in running the team, he’s done great.

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    Okay… it’s a fine layup… entirely unneccesary – But the kid knows when the cameras are on…

  • max

    lets talk about griffin’s all-star campaign ones the clippers manage to win 1/4th of their games.

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    ALSO HAVING TROUBLE VOTING FOR A CENTRE IN THE WEST
    ___________________________________________________
    Dirk N
    Blake G
    ? (been picking Nene every other day…and my boy ROBIN LOPEZ)
    Steve N
    Deron W
    ____
    EAST
    ____
    Amar`e S
    ? (been picking Garnett,Josh S, Paul P alternatively)
    ? (been picking Shaq, Dwight and Bogut different days)
    Derrick R
    Rajon R
    ______________
    I wouldn’t say I’m ‘hating’ but I’ve stayed clear of Wade and LeBron for this year, but to make it even I’ve stayed clear of Kobe also.

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    @max — I think Blake has been a shining light for an allstar weekend nod. He’ll get some sweet alleys and at the end of the day you want the allstar game to be hectic, joyous and arcadey. Boy got my vote.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    If Kobe, Wade and Lebron aren’t starters in the All-Star game, Stern will cancel it. Believe that.

  • Dagger

    Does having the most diverse selection of offensive moves make you the best player in the NBA? Just asking.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    A Patty Mills sighting and even more astounding, Mahinmi filling in nicely for Tyson (flu?)! If the Mavs can develop a Hydra of a defensive minded frontcourt, the postseason will be a blast for them.
    Loved how Bogut stated he was watching Mills play on twitter, those national teammates, always supporting each other.
    (nice game, Dirk)

  • http://www.google.com/news BETCATS

    Stephen Jackson better make the all-star game. He deserves it.Hopefully the Bobcats will go back to playing good basketball. They had a good practice and won a tough one last night. They cant play any worse.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Dark, I’d love to be excited for you and the Mavs…actually, I guess on your behalf I’m happy they’re playing great, but do we have to play the same song again in May or can Carlisle get them over the hump against the elite in the West from series to series? I’d like to see them instead of LA (obviously)…shoot, if the Thunder, Mavericks, Spurs or someone else can bogart their way into the Finals, we’d all be the better for it. Sorry Laker people.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    Agree with Eboy, although Dallas this year looks more likely than ever to make noise in the play-offs. Tyson Chandler (When he plays) has made a huge difference, and is one of the league leaders in plus-minus.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    Hi E. Of course history is not on the Mavs side, great regular season, horrible playoffs, ho hum what else is new, right? But i see some positive changes in this team’s early season games. They’ve won a few games with execution and defense. They have 2 strong defenders and 2, 3 wily ones (Chandler + ‘Marion, Kidd, souljaboy + Haywood) and it seems that Carlysle has found rotations that get the job done.
    Imo, they are deeper than ever (talent & positions) plus they stopped some great winning streaks. A very positive outlook if i may say so.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I still stand by my stance that any team with JJ Barrera is destined for failure…..only because I don’t like the dude. But yes, the Mavs have a different demeanor than in past years. I hope they can carry it over once April rolls around.

  • T-Money

    i’m on the fence with the mavs because of caron butler. i can easily see him taking a big shot he shouldn’t take instead of passing to dirk or jet. a respected veteran who’s slightly over the hill – he’s got sabotage written all over him. / it has been a while since mr. big shot has, yanno, hit a big shot. actually, how many big shots has he hit to get that nickname?! (it’s a lesson to all the young ballers out there, if you ALWAYS shoot no matter what in the clutch, you’re going to make some and we’ll forget the misses. DO. NOT. TRY. TO. MAKE. THE. RIGHT. PLAY. that’s soft.)

  • T-Money

    Washington gotta figure out things. I mean… Gil is playing great right now but they can’t expect to actually win games with him defending big 2s like Kobe (although i see that they have him listed at 6’4 for the first time in his career now. ha!) Ron Artest on Gil was interesting too, I didn’t think Phil would feel comfortable with Ron-Ron on a quick lil’ guard. Didn’t shut him down, didn’t let him go off. A wash. I still think Kobe will have to check DWade on the 26th.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    I thought Kobe would always be matched up with Dwyane with Miami’s current roster. What were you thinking the match ups would look like T-money?

  • http://www.slamonline.com/ niQ

    MOTN should be when DJ Augustin threw up the ball for an alley-oop. 2 Bobcats went for the dunk and I think Gerald Wallace dunked it. (I think on Boris Diaw…not sure) Lol

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    I don’t mind JJ as much as the two Jason’s come playoff time. Those 2 have been so underwhelming the last 2 postseasons, i am clamoring for a speedy recovery for Roddy so he can gel with the other starters and earn the crunchtime mins.
    Imo, Kidd(and Terry) take away more from the table than they add to it, especially against elite western teams.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    Darksaber – I probably don’t watch the Mavs as much as you, but in the games I have seen (Home and home with Nawlin’s, @San An, at home to Miami) J Kidd controlled the game at some point during a decisive Mavs run.

  • T-Money

    dark: rick carlisle also has to figure out a rotation, playing too many guys right now. you don’t want to roll in the playoffs with 12 guys expecting to see the floor. that’s one of cuban’s weaknesses for me – he stocks up too much. sometimes, you just need to strategize, get your first 8 and roll with them. / shadiestben: kobe on bron? he may not want to run around the court chasing wade on curls and he’s stronger than he looks.

  • rashado

    no one else noticed that the cleveland post up was done in comic sans? hahaah

  • JTaylor21

    First off let me say that this is not a diss to Kobe but just because he can make a fadeaway J and has a nice array of moves, does that make him the best player in the entire NBA? I thought that basketball was more than putting the ball in the hole? What about the defensive aspect of the game, passing skills, rebounding, finishing ability, ability to get to the free throw line, and ability to lead? Don’t those apsects also have to be factored in when talking about who’s the absolutely best in the L. If it was all about scoring the Suns would have won 4 chips in a row by now and AI would be mentioned on every Top-10 players of all-time list but it’s not about that, to me the best player in the L is someone that is an all-around basketball both on the offensive and defensive end.

  • http://www.diimemag.com Royal

    Jtaylor: You don’t think Kobe is an all-around basketball player both on the offensive and defensive end?

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    Shadiest: agreed, regular season Kidd is still a great floor general.
    But the last postseasons have revealed all his weaknesses, which were exploited by the following: Hill & Parker, Billups, Popovic & Karl.
    As soon as teams can focus on the Mavs in a multi-game series, Kidd’s loss of lateral quickness, unreliable outside shot etc. hurt Dallas.
    Hence, the need for Roddy to learn the ropes, fast.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    T-money – I agree, but I thought the Artest signing was about defending the bigger 3′s (Bron, Melo).
    Rashado – Yea lol he’s been doing that.
    Jtaylor – And that is Bron? His efficiency has dropped off by more than 8 points this season, yes his scoring was going to go down but weren’t his assists and rebounds supposed to rise dramatically? (both have fallen off) Yet he’s only playing 2 mins less a game.
    IMO CP3 is the best all around player; he can score, pass, great rebounder for a PG, leads the league in steals, always matches up with the other teams PG, shoots great percentage from the free throw line, 3pt line & field, and is an unquestioned leader.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    Dark – I agree it cost them against San An last year, his lack of scoring ability hurt them. Like you said he is still a great floor general during the reg season.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    T-money: that goes without saying. Carlysle actually messed up his player’s rhythms last playoffs against the Spurs by going buckwild with rotations.

  • JTaylor21

    When did I ever bring up Bron as being the best player this season? Thanks for actually make ish up. The best player so far this season is either DWilliams or Dirk. Both guys are balling out of control and their teams are at the top of the WC. @Royal, kobe is a great player but don’t sit there and act like his fabled defensive skills haven’t fallen off a cliff recently, he gets blown by way too much, gambles way too much, and Nick Freaking Young did his thang against him last night. In my book, you actually have to contribute in other areas not just scoring.

  • JTaylor21

    Lebron may be a more willing passer than Kobe but I think Kobe is a better passer. He makes a lot of passes that only Steve Nash, Kidd, and Paul can pull off. Remember that behind the back pass to Gasol in the finals against Orlando?

  • T-Money

    ShadiestBen: and how did that go vs Bron last year? the problem with bron is that artest is way slower than him and can’t bully him either. at least on wade, he can get physical and shove him around. anyways, just a thought. i’m a bron guy so fine by me if they stick with ron-ron. 2-3 years ago, bron used to be really bothered by ron’s physical play but his body has matured – not pausing. / kobe-bron debates are so 2009-2010.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    Jtaylor – You didn’t bring him up, I did and was asking you about him. Whilst D Will and Dirks teams being at the top of the conference means a lot when it comes to ranking, some teams just don’t have the rosters to be at the top of the conference.
    Some teams when maximised can win 40 games, others can win titles. Does that mean the players on the championship teams are always better than the teams who win 40 games?
    T-money – Again I agree, but I assumed Artest would be matching up with him. No one can stop Bron anyway (they can contain him), why not let Artests strength try and bother him? He’s one of the few wings in the league that are as strong than Bron.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Kobe didn’t even hold Nick Young that often last nite. Don’t just watch the boxscore watch the game.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    J-taylor – Nick Young can get 30 on anyone in the league when he gets going and Flip rides with him.

  • http://www.diimemag.com Royal

    I agree Kobe’s defense is over-rated, he is a good defender but not all-defensive team worthy.I also agree with about his passing,an aspect of his game that is under-rated, due to him not always being a willing passer.But how is Dirk the best player in the L according to you definition of “best player in the L is someone that is an all-around basketball both on the offensive and defensive end” ?

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    In fact, Eboy will remember Nick Young lighting up Miami and D wade in MIA around this time last year.

  • T-Money

    Nick Young is one of these players, like JR, that you can’t do anything about when he’s really on. As a good defender, you want to force him into bad shots… but bad shots are all he knows! That’s also why he’ll never be a good player.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I agree with both Ben and T-Money’s last comments.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Nick Young has been killing it all year. He has been the Wizards most consistent player all year.

  • http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/ Anthony

    Dark, someone mention that Rick played to many players, i remember last year against SA, G6: Roddi was killing us, we had no answer for him and then inexplicably Rick decided to go with JT in the 4th, you know how it end after that. Is Rick really a coach you can trust during playoffs time ? Honnestly I don’t know. If i was a Mavs that’s what will worry me the most.

  • JTaylor21

    Great, someone is now using my name to push their Kobe agenda. @Ben, I brought up Dirk because he’s actually been playing great defense so far this year and has been shooting lights out since day one. Also on the Nick Young tip, what’s y’all excuse for kobe letting Arenas drop 60 on him a couple of years back? So he wasn’t guarding him then also? Let the excuses start.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    Wasn’t an excuse I don’t have to defend Kobe, just pointing out that Nick Young can light it up on any night.

  • JTaylor21

    Well if you’re going to let Nick Freaking Young light you up, you’re not a great defender. For the record, Wade also is not a great one-on-one defender, he’s just a great thief and is the best shot-blocking guard but he still gets beat on defense too often.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    I like dirk, but right now Dwill should be no 1 in MVP voting. Does anyone know why ESPN and NBA.com both have Dwight as no 1. on their MVP lists. He’s good but he’s definitely not no 1 for me. It should be 1. Dwill 2. Drose 3. Dirk

  • T-Money

    Cleveland has to man up. They’re feeling sorry for themselves right now, almost like Bron broke their will. They’re bad but not losing-by-30-to-Minny bad. If they don’t show some fight, their next win might be in 2011.

  • http://www.diimemag.com Royal

    I don’t think anyone is arguing that Kobe is a GREAT defender (I’ve already admitted he is overrated), I think most people believe he’s an above-average or good defender. And every good defender gets sh!ted on every once in a while.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    @Jtaylor, that’s ridiculous, anybody can light anybody up from outside the 3pt line, he hit 6 of em (could be 5) that’s already 18 points, count that 360 move (hard to stop) couple of fg’s and ft’s and you have Nick Young’s night. He wasn’t putting moves on Kobe or anything, he just hit his shots. It would’ve happen to anybody guarding him, so nobody in the NBA is a good defender?

  • JTaylor21

    When did I ever say that Kobe sucks as a defender? He’s a very good defender but everyone claims is such a dominating defender and for him to have more first-team defense selection than the greatest defender of all-time is downright ludacris. @Jahmai, you sit here and act like Young is avg. 25ppg or something, dude is a volume shooter who can be shut-down by great defense.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    @Jtaylor All I’m saying is, he just hit shots, Linas Kleiza once had 42. Just saying. I don’t think Kobe is the best player of all time, but did you even watch the game?

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    If Nick Young has it going, he can’t be shut down. If he doesn’t then yes he can be shut down. Like T-money said he’s a JR Smith type.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    But, more often than not Nick Young will shoot himself out of it or Flip will limit his minutes.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    @ShadiestBen, exactly. And Jtaylor FYI Nick Young attempts 9,45 shots per game, you call that a HIGH volume shooter? And he dropped 20pts on Boston on 9-15 fga/fgm, and boston is considered to be one of the best if not THE best defensive team in the league. So they suck too right?

  • http://www.slamonline.com jumpman3224

    Leadership should def. be factored into the “Who’s the best player category” debate. Personally, I’d say that Kobe is the best and certainly one of the most accomplished leader in the game today. What do ya’ll think?

    @jtaylor: In terms of rebounding Kobe is currently 4th in L among guards (and the only one in that group that is over 28 years old). He is also 8th in the L in FTA per game. Just a FYI.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Kobe is a great defender but its hard to play defense lockdown when you are your teams main offensive weapon. It requires lots of energy to lockdown a player especially a SG in today’s NBA. That’s why the Bulls had Pippen and Harper and the Lakers have Artest and Barnes.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Has Dirk really been playing great defense? I’ll have to play closer attention to that.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Id have to agree with deron being mvp so far. Maybe manu?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    There doesn’t seem to be any Buzz for Deron so far, sadly. I remember the buzz when Nash was leading his team and putting up great numbers and I don’t see it this year even with all of Utah’s great wins.
    Why is that?

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    *cough* white *cough*

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/ Diesel

    Your right Kap – no black man has ever won a NBA award

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Dirk playing good D? That’s a myth… Like aliens. Or bigfoot.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/ Diesel

    I don’t think Deron is getting love because he’s not on a highly visible team. I feel like people don’t pay as much attention to Utah. Plus Deron himself isn’t incredibly flashy. So in a year where Rose and Westbrook are playing just as good, but with a little more flash people will talk about them first.

  • http://www.slamonline.com NickthaQuick

    To make things clearer, why doesn’t JTaylor say who he thinks is the best all-round player, instead of slyly insinuating that Kobe isn’t the best all-round player. Since he obviously doesn’t think its Bean then he must have some other choice. I wouldn’t say it’s Dirk, DWill or Drose. They all have something missing in their game.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Neither Rose nor Westbrook have been mentioned for MVP.
    In truth, I haven’t seen much media buzz for anybody as the frontrunner for MVP, but I think it’s strange that you have arguably the best point guard in the league, on one of the top teams, after losing his second best player, and he’s not being trumpeted as the frontrunner for MVP.
    Utah is small market, but not that small.
    There is a clear difference between how Williams’ year and the crazy year Chris Paul had a while back were treated compared to how Nash’s two MVP years were received. Clear difference.
    Is it style of play, team performance, race, or a combination of all of that and more?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Nick
    What does Dwill have missing in his game?
    I see nothing.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/ Diesel

    Nobody is talking about Westbrook and Rose for MVP? Have you read these threads lately? And just as an FYI – ESPN’s current awards watch lists the MVP race as:

    1. Dwight
    2. DWill
    3. DRose
    4. Dirk
    5. Westbrook

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I don’t take the MVP comments of SLAM posters that seriously since they don’t actually have a vote.
    But, maybe you’re right and the buzz for the players you’ve mentioned has been similar to what Nash received. Is that what you’re saying?

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    I like him, but is DWill really a great defender?

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/ Diesel

    I’m saying its 2 months in and the fans are the only ones talking about the MVP race. I think SLAM represents a good mix of what the fan’s are thinking. If you’re talking about why the media isn’t getting worked about about DWill – I don’t think the media is getting worked up about anyone because its only 2 months into the season. If Utah and DWill are still playing like this in a few months and the media isn’t talking about him, then I’d think you have a point. But its too early to start a frenzy over MVP now. I think ESPN listing him as #2 is a good start for now.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    He’s a very good defender. He’s not outstanding, but he’s well above average and rarely gets roasted. He has good technique, and his size makes it hard for him to get posted up. His only real problem is that he lacks elite foot speed, but I’ve seen him lock up Iverson in Denver, so I’m a Dwil fan on defense.
    Diesel
    Cool.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    There’s really only a few PG’s in the NBA that can really score. Last season I saw him score 28 on DRose but he also gave up 25. I personally think his defense is a little overrated. Not saying he’s terrible, but he gets the benefit of the doubt because NBA PG’s by and large aren’t scorers. And I’m not an advanced stat guy buy any means — and I ride w/ DWill all day because he went to Illinois — but in doing a comparison of his career advanced stat numbers and Chris Paul’s, it’s really not even close. CP3 is beating him handily in just about every category.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    Allenp – statistically CP3 is having a better year right now than he did that year when you consider shooting % and that he is also playing 4 less minutes a game. He’s flying under the radar, and his team is at 13-7 with Detroit at home tonight.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    Co-sign Bryan 10x over.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    He’s also the league leader in efficiency, and last I checked he was the leader in PER. Last year Bron was the efficiency leader and ran away with the MVP award.

  • T-Money

    Well, I’ll be damned. Co-sign BC 100%.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Shadiest
    He’s having a more efficient year. That doesn’t always mean better.
    You could argue that his team actually needs more scoring from him even with less efficiency sort of like the Bulls needed from D Rose early in the season. Just because he’s being efficient doesn’t mean he’s overall playing better.
    And I was arguing about whether Deron Williams had a better career than Chris Paul, I was arguing about who was MVP. Dwill is averaging 22, 10 and 4 on 47 percent from the field on a team that lost it’s second best player, and has beaten quite a few great teams so far.
    That sounds like the leading MVP candidate, and like a point guard who is having an amazing year.
    But, as Diesel said, it’s early. I’ll wait and see what happens.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    You are right Allen, NO do need more scoring off him. However in the games where he has scored a lot early (Dallas on the road comes to mind, and Darksaber would probably co-sign) the defense has been able to zero in on him and the rest of the team couldn’t get going. Nawlins need another scorer because D West cannot be a first option on a contender.
    Your also right that being more efficient doesn’t mean better, but after watching every Hornet game this year I feel he’s playing phenomenal ball, better than that year where Kobe got MVP.

  • http://www.slamonline.com NickthaQuick

    @ AllenP. I would say the same thing you just said about Deron. He is an above average defender and maybe only lacking in footspeed against the quicker point guards but he does almost everything else well. He is not as average defensively as Dirk but the point is everyone seems to have some hole in their game, even Kobe now that his defense is not what it used to be.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Is it odd that Kevin Durant is getting no votes from anyone here after he was touted in the preseason as the perennial MVP winner for the next half decade? Yeah, me too.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    Durant was able to get whatever he wanted off the dribble during the WBC, but back in the L his handle is not good enough to create for himself consistently 1 v 1. He has to start out of triple threat or off a screen.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Sorry, I was NOT arguing about whether Dwil had a better career.
    Clearly Chris Paul wins that argument.

  • http://www.diimemag.com Royal

    ShadiestBen: Shouldn’t every player start out in triple threat? I thought that was the fundamental thing to do. I don’t think that’s a negative….

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Shadiest Ben
    His handle is fine. He’s just not as dominant athletically in the NBA as he was in the WBC’s. He had a clear athletic advantage over everyone he faced in the WBC, which forced them to give him more air space. Which he promptly used to wet jumpers over and over again. In the league, there are more players who can stay in front of him even if they crowd him, which means he has less room to get off his shot. Plus, in the WBC he was flanked by some serious talent. I’m sure if you got to play with Eric Gordon and Chauney Billups along with Russell Westbrook he’d be doing a lot better.

  • Scott

    Who is the front runner for the MVP? Dwight Howard?

  • Pharoah

    No hype for Deron, theres been a lot of buzz around him this year so far. Number 2 in the MVP race on NBA.com right after D12 right now.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Like the level of discussion and have to agree with BC that DWill (who I consider the best PG) is a bit overrated as a defender. His lack of elite foot-speed gives him trouble with the blitz-quick PG’s – which are most of the other elite PGs. Apart from that I have to strongly disagree with BC on another of his points (it wouldn’t be right if we agreed too much heheh); ‘There’s really only a few PG’s in the NBA that can really score’ Really?? PGs that can score in the L are a dime a dusin, of the top of my head: T. Parker, T. Evans, A.Brooks, J.Nelson, B. Jennings, S. Curry, C. Paul, D. Williams, D. Rose, R. Westbrook, R. Felton, S. Nash, J. Wall, B. Davis (at least before he turned into a Whopper), D. Harris, R. Stuckey, N. Robinson, to a certain degree Billups and even Mike Conley is averaging 16 points per game. That is roughly half the leagues PG that can give you 25 on any given night (maybe except Conley), so there is a lot PGs that can score at a high clip. Of all the players just listed only Paul and Nash and Williams himself are better set-up guys than scorers. So that ‘no scoring PGs’ point is bogus. But like I said, I agree that Deron is slightly overrated as a defender (so is Paul btw).

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    *maybe Wall is a better set-up guy than scorer as well, haven’t seen him enough at the pro level yet. Ditto for Conley.

  • T-Money

    Yeah, to me it’s Dwight Howard hands down. He IS the Orlando Magic. The sole reason why they’re the #1 defensive team right now. And he does have legit post moves now even though they’re kinda awkward. His sweeping running right hook across the lane and his turnaround left jump hook going to the baseline are really money. I’d still like him to call out for the ball more, though. Howard is the biggest game changer in the league, Orlando just can’t function when he’s not out there. // Allen: his handle is still a bit suspect but, you’re right, that’s not really the problem. He’s just not getting as many clean looks because cats are playing up on him and putting a hand in his face when he shoots. In the league, nobody is giving him a 2-foot cushion when he’s sizing up on the wing. The coach pulled him after 3 mins in the 3rd quarter on Monday. He’s pressing.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Lz: Any PG can go off for 25 on any given night because it’s the NBA. That’s not saying much. So by reputation ONLY, a lot of those that you listed are not scorers. At least not of the ilk of a Derrick Rose, John Wall, Russell Westbrook and Tyreke Evans. There is a huge difference between being a “scoring PG” — where that is your main responsibility — and a PG who can score.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    T-Money
    Durant’s handle is exceptional for a 6’9″ cat with the wingspand of a seven footer. It’s suspect when compared to your average guard, but not when compared to your average small forward. Hell, his handled is better than LeBron’s in my opinion.
    Dude still likes his jumper too much, and lets it dictate his game. if his jumper isn’t falling, he hasn’t figured out how to still give a team 30 and hit the last second shot. That’s elite scoring right there.
    I love Durant’s game, but it was clear that people were giving him way too much credit for killing cats who weren’t even in his zip code athletically or skillwise.
    But, you know who does look good after looking good to me in the WBC, Rudy Gay. His pull up isn’t as unstoppable in the league as it was over there, but his willingness to do more of the little things is making a difference. Grizz just need to get consistent on both ends.

  • Michael

    damn Kyle Lowry had a nice night, once Brooks is healthy the rockets PG situation will be tight for real. I think Dwight will lock up MVP this season, I dont see Orlando fallin off, if they don’t that means Dwight doesn’t.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Durant is 6-11. Jeff Green is 6-9 and he’s taller than him. Not nitpicking, just saying.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I would say Parker, Evans, Stuckey, Brooks, Jennings, Curry, and Devin Harris are straight up scorers first, distributors second.
    WestBrook, Rose, Jameer, and Billups strike the balance better, but still are most dangerous when getting buckets.
    Nash can score, but typically isn’t putting up a lot of shots. Same thing with Conley. Kidd doesn’t even want to score.
    Paul prefers to score in spots instead of constantly attacking to score. He attacks to set everybody else up.
    I thnk Williams doesn’t get killed by all of the quicker guards because he has great technique on defense, understands angles, and knows how to use his body. Every once in a while he gets roasted, but most of the time, he doesn’t let these cats deal with him.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I was going by the height listed on his bio.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on the scoring PG argument. I think that guys who primarily shoot jumpshots and who don’t consistently attack the rim looking to finish or draw contact can’t be considered scorers.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    @BC: So Dirk, Durant and Kobe cannot be considered scorers either?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
    at LZ.
    Neither can J.R. Smith or Stack Jack. Or Joe Johnson.
    Nah, I can’t agree with that definition of scorer. I think a scorer is someone who’s game is dependent on scoring to be effective. That’s how they impact games best and most consistently.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    I agree completely with Allenp about the guys who are balanced (maybe add NYK Felton to that group, Charlotte Felton was a scorer) as well as your point about Nash and Conley. I didn’t mention Kidd and Rondo because they are set-up men. But all the other PGs listed except for the 3 guys I mentioned in the prior post are at least as good at scoring as distributing and like Allenp just summed up, many of them (especially the new school) scorers before set-up men.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Exactly doesn’t matter whether the guy shoot primarily jumpshots or gets all his points on dunks. Like Allenp said, scoring is about the players mentality and what they bring to the team to be effective. Ray Allen is not a scorer? Reggie Miller? Larry Bird? Glen Rice? Mitch Richmond? Come on Crawford you are better than that weak ‘primarily shoot jumpshots’ argument.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    You guys are still confusing shooters with scorers. And KD and Kobe are scorers because scorers get to the FT line.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    You can be scorer who shoots, or a scorer who slashes.
    Like I said, a scorer is someone whose game is built on their ability to put the ball in the hoop. They struggle to truly dominate or impact a game without scoring, they thing they do best is score, and the thing they are most comfortable doing is scoring. In my opinion it’s not about how you score (slasher, shooter, post up, energy guy) it’s about whether or not that’s the primary way you impact the game.
    Shawn Marion used to get 20 points a game, but was never a scorer.
    I don’t believe Aaron Brooks has ever averaged 20 a game, but he’s obviously a scorer. T-Mac went from all-around hooper, to straight scorer. Chris Paul averaged 20 points a game two years in a row, but was never a true “scorer” he just scored points.
    Corey Maggette has never been anything other than a scorer.
    The paint thing is cool, after all getting in the lane is the easiest way to score, but I don’t think it’s accurate.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    By each of you guys’ definition and subsequent examples, the very act of scoring points makes you a “scorer.” So by that definition, everybody in the NBA is a scorer because everybody in the NBA scores points.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    @BC: Rudy Gay is a scorer not a shooter he only gets to the line 4 times a game. DRose only gets there a little above 5 times a game. They are both scorers, your logic is flawed.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Oh, and I’m going to give you a pass on “scorers get to the free throw line.”
    After all, DRose has had a notoriously low free throws attempted, and while Dirk is rarely in the paint, he still gets to the line quite often.
    Getting to the free throw line doesn’t mean you’re always in the paint, which was your original point.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    The DRose thing is weak because it’s widely acknowledged that as aggressive as he is going to the basket on a consistent basis, he just doesn’t get calls. Rudy Gay is a jump shooter. He’s not driving to the line looking for contact every time down. I understand that you guys are intent on proving me wrong, but you can at least try a little harder to come up with better examples.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    Allenp – His handle for someone that big with that much wingspan may be good, but when you have someone shorter but stronger than him (Bogans the otehr night) his handle is non-effective. When Deng was guarding him I seen him use a cross over and a few other dribble moves, but when being guarded by an above average defender at the 2 (which happens to him sometimes) I personally don’t feel his handle is good enough.
    Royal – correct but it’s not always possible to start out of triple threat, being able to create off the dribble without triple threat is a lot more difficult IMO than creating out of triple threat. Kobe is so much more effective when he still has a live dribble to use.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    I’ve got to be honest: Starting with the Billups for AI trade, Joe Dumars and co. have done a really bad job at building this Pistons’ roster. They have so many good guards who can play 1-3–but that’s the problem. They have a freaking log jam at every position from point guard to small forward, which started with the Iverson/Stuckey/Hamilton fiasco–and yet, they still have NO PASS FIRST POINT GUARD. But what gets me is that even AFTER Dumars saw what a bad move it was to have Iverson and Hamilton fighting each other for minutes–which was an understandable mistake–he goes and signs Ben Gordon?! And then TRACY McGRADY? And then develops WILL BYNUM? So basically he made the same mistake 4 times–wait, but then, with Tayshaun Prince at the Small Forward spot, of course he goes and drafts AUSTIN DAYE, ANOTHER Small Forward. I mean, Daye even LOOKS like Prince. And I even forgot to mention JONAS JEREBKO.
    So what the Pistons have now is a massive logjam at the 1, 2 and 3 spots, no real power forwards (besides Maxiell) because Villanueva plays an outside game, and… Ben Wallace. They have no clue who should close out ball games and who should start, and they only somewhat have a reason for sticking with Rip and Prince in the starting line-up–only because they were around for the ’04 title run.
    No offense to Joe Dumars, and I know I’m no NBA GM, but from the perspective of a fan, there’s some seriously messed up roster building in Detroit. When you have a team with around 5 potential/former All-Stars and you aren’t winning ball games, there’s a problem.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Bryan
    If you say that other people’s examples that contradict your point don’t countsimply be wise you say they don’t count it will always be difficult to” prove” you wrong. Rose is. Scorer who doesn’t shoot a lot offers throws. That is a massive hole in the agument that scorers always shoot tons of free throws. Dirk is a scorer who shoots tons of jumpers which contradicts the point that scorers live in the lane. That doesn’t even include players like reggie miller and ray allen who are clearly scorers despite being jump shooters. Excuse my typos I am on my phone.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    Nice discussions in the last two Post Ups. We keep this up and the regulars might start peeking in again.
    And co-sign Allenp’s last post.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    I’m hoping JR is going to get his Nick Young on and make this a game in the 4th.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    So we’ll just keep focusing on Derrick Rose — who gets no love from the refs — and use that as proof that my scorers argument is inaccurate. OK, that’s cool… But for the record, Reggie Miller’s career FTA is 5.1, Ray Allen’s is 4.2. These dudes are NOT scorers, they are shooters and I’ve never even heard anyone refer to them as anything else until today. Dirk Nowitzki’s career FTA is 6.5 which means he’s more scorer than shooter compared to those two. And here are the career FTA’s of the NBA’s best scorers: MJ 8.2, AI 8.9, Kobe 7.7, DWade 9.2, Bron 9.0, Kevin Durant 7.8, and Melo 7.9. True scorers by and large — even if they can shoot the ball well from the perimeter — are aggressive by nature and get to the line. This is elementary basketball stuff.

  • T-Money

    Allen: I’m really puzzled by your statement that KD handles better than Bron. It’s not even close. Artest was playing KD up to the half court line in the playoffs and a lot of times KD had to eat his dribble and look for a pass. You can NEVER do that to Bron. Not to mention that KD is no comfortable at all leading the break. Kind of a ridiculous statement to be honest?! // BC: Honestly, I’ve watched a lot games by D-Rose and I’m CONVINCED that he would shoot more free throws if he would just initiate contact on his drives. A lot of times he contorts his body to dodge the big man or stops and throws a 2-foot shot put.

  • T-Money

    Why are all my comments under moderation? Am I on probation or something?

  • http://dsajfklf.com Jukai

    Bryan Crawford & AllenP: You guys are in a semantical debate. There’s no right answer to what you guys are arguing.
    Bryan considers people who shoot jumpers and don’t go to the line as “shooters” and not “scorers.”
    Allenp considers anyone whose main function is to score as “scorers” regardless if they get it from jump shots or from the paint.
    There’s no real dictionary definition of NBA scorer, So, unless someone has David Stern’s cell phone number, just say “ah, that’s how you view a scorer. I view it differently” and be done with it.
    Personally, I agree with Allen’s definition but I’ve been told “Oh, Reggie Miller wasn’t really a scorer, he was a shooter” so obviously other people believe Bryan’s definition.

  • http://dsajfklf.com Jukai

    T-Money: Stop droppin’ the f-bomb in all your posts, dude!

  • http://dsajfklf.com Jukai

    Kevin Love with 20-21, and there’s a minute thirty left. Wow. When was the last time a white dude won the rebounding title? When was the last time an unathletic white dude did it? Actually, I know the answer, and the dude who did it was a real dbag, but I’m just throwing out that question.
    In my mind, the West All-Stars are going to be Paul, Kobe, Carmello, Dirk, (generic unworthy center who gets voted in, probably Yao), Deron, Ellis, Durant, Gasol, Duncan, and Nash. That all seems obvious, maybe Roy over Ellis but I doubt it. My question is, who picks up that last wildcard spot?
    Is it Kevin Love or Blake Griffin?
    Check the numbers:
    Blake Grif: 20.2 – 11.8 – 2.9 – 0.8 – 0.6 on 51% shooting
    Kevin Love: 20.0 – 15.3 – 2.1 – 0.5 – 0.5 on 44% shooting
    Ahhhh toughie. Love impresses me more, and Griffin’s a rookie so he has more time. But, Griffin would make things infinitely more exciting.
    People’s thoughts?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Olive and Blake should both make it and Duncan should sit this one out. Fake an injury Timmy.

  • http://dsajfklf.com Jukai

    Allen: Well, I mean, Spurs do have the best record in the league. Hard to say they don’t deserve a spot. I wouldn’t mind Ginobili over Nash or Ellis.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    So what’s the cutoff free throws attempted for a scorer? Is it 6.5? Cause in that case, Larry Bird doesn’t make it.
    Neither does Jalen Rose.
    Or Ben Gordon.
    John Salmons is at 2.5.
    All of those cats are scorers in my opinion. That’s what they do and some people would argue that’s ALL they do. Sure, they like jumpers, but they are still SCORERS on the court. They aren’t cats you park in the corner and tell to wait for the ball to swing.
    It seems to me that slasher and scorer have been conflated in this discussion.
    A slasher manufactures buckets in the lane and at the line.
    A scorer manufactures buckets period.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    I have to laugh at crawford saying its widely acknowledged rose doesnt get calls. Maybe its because he avoids contact on his drives. He wants to make a flashy finish instead of forcing the call to go to the line. He will learn.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    miami is about to beat Utah, and Wade and Bron both are looking good. i might have to revise the piece I was working on taking shots at them for their slacking so far.

  • http://dsajfklf.com Jukai

    Damn Allen, I paused my TV and was watching the game with nine minutes to go. Way to ruin the entire f*cking game for me, man.

  • JTaylor21

    I wonder what new tactics people are going to use to downplay the heat winning at Utah tonight. Mia is doing a better job of moving the ball and getting out on the break. Wade and Bron are finally playing well together, bosh has also been on a roll lately and Chalmers has to be the one guarding top PGs down the stretch because even though DWill had 21/12, chalmers did a great job of getting deflections and holding williams in check in the 4th qtr.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    If you could measure Rudy Gay’s confidence tonight, your pc would state “does not compute”. After Frye missed a FT that would have given Suns a 4pt lead with 4 secs left, Memphis drew up a play for Rudy, gorgeous pass from Conley and Rudy sinks the baseline 3 to tie it: OVERTIME!
    This after a big comeback by the Suns, that just deflates a team.

  • http://dsajfklf.com Jukai

    And Joel Anthony played 13 seconds, that’s a biggie too, JTaylor.

  • http://www.manutd.com T-Money

    Allen: I’m really puzzled by your statement that KD handles better than Bron. It’s not even close. Artest was playing KD up to the half court line in the playoffs and a lot of times KD had to eat his dribble and look for a pass. You can NEVER do that to Bron. Not to mention that KD is no comfortable at all leading the break. Kind of a ridiculous statement to be honest?! // BC: Honestly, I’ve watched a lot games by D-Rose and I’m CONVINCED that he would shoot more free throws if he would just initiate contact on his drives. A lot of times he contorts his body to dodge the big man or stops and throws a 2-foot shot put.

  • JTaylor21

    Jukai, it’s always a biggie when Mr. 1,000 ways to blow a dunk doesn’t play at all. Eric Damp has also been playing well since he was acquired and should help the heat inside.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    To Eric Gordon, you are a becoming a superb player, but if LO and Pau are sucking during a game, maybe u wanna stop driving on Kobe/helpD-Fisher/Artest when your frontcourt teammates are open? Those 2 late turnovers didn’t help your cause; which was clearly to be the hero of the game.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    Gut punch loss for the Clippers. Too bad, defense was excellent in stretches, execution…. not so much.

  • http://dsajfklf.com Jukai

    Not to toot my own horn (okay, it IS to do that) but I said Eric Gordon was gonna be better than OJ Mayo. Just sayin’.

  • http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/ Anthony

    Jukai, you put Ellis over Manu ? really ?

  • http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/ Anthony

    sorry, didnt read your post after, nevermind

  • http://sdfklfds.com Jukai

    Haha, it’s cool Anthony. In fairness, I believe Manu is the most overrated player of our generation, I think he’s a top-20 all time shooting guard. But he’s underrated because he’s so damn forgettable.

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