Quantcast
Wednesday, December 15th, 2010 at 8:40 am  |  210 responses

Post Up: All Eyez On Me

Through rumors and speculation, Carmelo drops 35.

by Adam Figman | @afigman

Philadelphia 82, New Jersey 77

Move over, Knicks; we’ve got a new “Wow, didn’t expect them to start winning” team. The Sixers have now won six of eight (the two losses being close ones vs. Boston and Atlanta), and are sitting only a game and a half out of Playoff contention in the East. Jrue Holiday, who’s now scored in double figures five straight, led them with 19, while Spencer Hawes went for a season-high 18. Meanwhile, New Jersey shot an abysmal 34.1 percent, and Avery Johnson’s guys have now dropped eight straight. But do not fear, Nets fans. Help is on the way, and its his name is Sasha Vujacic.

Charlotte 97, Toronto 91

On the night in which the G.O.A.T. was inducted to the North Carolina Hall of Fame, the Bobcats—the franchise he owns—rewarded him as well, defeating a struggling Raptors team. Nazr Mohammed (18 points, 8 boards) did some serious work for the ‘Cats, who shot 52 precent from the field, just 10 percent less than they shot from the charity stripe. Charlotte now takes off for a three-game road trip, which begins tonight, in Memphis.

L.A. Lakers 103, Washington 89

In this contest’s box score, the first thing that jumps off the page is the fact that the Lakers were outscored 19-11 in the fourth quarter. The second thing is that the Lakers still won by 14, meaning they had a pretty dominant first three. Andrew Bynum returned to the court, going for 7 points in 17 minutes, while Kobe Bryant went for 24—his 18th straight 20-plus scoring effort. The Wizards were playing without John WallAndray Blatche, and any heart whatsoever, as the Lake Show ran all over them before enjoying the D.C. tourist attractions later in the night. Yeah, I made that up, but don’t act like you wouldn’t wanna visit the Lincoln Memorial or the Capital Building with Ron Ron and Co. Speaking of, here’s Artest on JaVale McGee, via Michael Lee: “I don’t think he watches tape. I think he plays video games and I think he could possibly have an Atari. He could potentially become a force, if, if he wants to. But if he doesn’t, he can continue to play Atari.” True story.

Detroit 103, Atlanta 80

For the first time in the past few weeks, the Hawks looked like they could really use some Joe Johnson assistance. With Jamal Crawford (2 points) in a funk, they just couldn’t put up points, and the Pistons’ merciless defense completely smothered their chances at a victory. (I honestly have no idea if that was a joke or not.) Josh Smith (26 points) and Al Horford (17 points, 12 boards) played well, but Rip Hamilton and Charlie Villanueva’s combined 47 points propelled Detroit to the W. Atlanta’s rebound opportunity comes Thursday night, in Boston.

Houston 118, Sacramento 105

Not exactly a defensive dogfight, but behind 10 team three-pointers and Luis Scola’s 23 and 10 night, the Rockets were able to bury the Kings. Both squads shot 50 percent or higher from the field, which is cool and all, but if you can’t get a stop or two, you’ll still end up taking the L. Sorry, Sacto. Houston continues to turn around its weak start, having now won five of seven. They’ll be in Oklahoma City tonight.

Denver 111, Orlando 94

This one was actually kinda close, until the Nuggets’ 19-3 fourth-quarter run ended that talk and gave them the victory. Amidst all the trade rumors and other nonsense, Carmelo Anthony was focused enough to score 35 points (plus 11 boards), while the Nugs shot an impressive 53.8 percent from the floor. Also impressive: JJ Redick put in 29 points, but the Magic didn’t do much else, as they dropped their fifth in six games. Jameer Nelson, in particular, was a little off—he scored just 2 off 1-10 shooting. Orlando has a few days off, and something tells me multiple players-only meetings and Stan Van Gundy speeches are in store.

Golden State 108, Minnesota 99

Damn, can we get something close? A buzzer-beater? A game-winner? Not tonight, huh? Anyway, Reggie Williams and Monta Ellis combined for 60, and with Steph Curry sidelined, the Warriors were finally able to get a W—snapping their seven-game skid. Nothing else too exciting went down, though Darko Milicic did score a career-high (!) 25 points. You see kids: Dreams do come true.

Actual Stats: Carmelo Anthony: 35 points, 11 rebounds, 2 assists.
Moment of the Night:

Dear DeMar DeRozan,

Don’t hurt ‘em.

Respectfully,
Adam

  • Add a Comment
  • Share
  • RSS

Tags: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

  • http://afjkl.com Jukai

    Lakers grabbed Joe Smith, nice replacement for Bynum… AFTER BYNUM ALREADY CAME BACK

  • MUBWAR

    that dunk was disgusting. Don’t hurt them young one.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/ Myles Brown

    You had all night to think of that and not once did it cross your mind that the trade was about getting rid of Sasha’s ridiculous contract? ($5.5 milli + $4 in luxury tax)

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    Carmelo continues to SHUT UP his crackpot critics regarding the effort he gives the Nuggets, which has always been 100%. Carmelo is a professional…and he’s patient. Come home Carmelo, come home. POW!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    Bynum looked solid in his first game back, Kobe was effecient 7-13 from the field I believe. Has anybody else noticed that Kobe is dunking a lot more these days?

  • http://afjkl.com Jukai

    Myles: That’s surely a lot of it, but Sasha’s been in Jackson’s doghouse for two years growing dust on the bench. What took them so long to move him? I don’t believe for a second that this was the first opportunity to move him.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/ Myles Brown

    I doubt there’s been a long list of suitors for a one dimensional guard with a massive contract and a bad attitude. And whole its questionable if Joe will ever play, he’s still another big body that can spell Theo until hes healthy (if ever) and take away some of Pau’s minutes.

  • http://afjkl.com Jukai

    Your point at the end is the track I was: he’s going to provide rest to the Laker’s bigs (Bynum, Gasol, Odom) but I just found it funny that they only pulled the trade after Bynum came back. They couldn’t have pulled this sooner when Gasol looked like he was going to pass out on the court?

  • add

    the sixers are really doin well. dre had a sick reverse jam.

  • http://afjkl.com Jukai

    *is the same track I was on
    Wow, I gotta sleep more

  • http://google c_cantrell

    good moves by the lakers.. i like it

  • Stepfan

    Ron Artest on JaVale McGee play last night: “I don’t think he watches tape. I think he plays video games and I think he could possibly have an Atari. He could potentially become a force, if, if he wants to. But if he doesn’t, he can continue to play Atari.” hahahaha this is so true Ron lol that really funny. It very hard to watch my Wizards especally when they have talent like Mcgee, but it seems that nobody is working with on his game. He relies to much on his athleticism, and gets totally lost on D smh btw Flip Saunders is a terrible coach. Just had to vent right there. Washington Wizards aka the LA Clippers of the East-Michael Wilbon. Washington Wizards NBA Champions 2125.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/ niQ

    Farmar and Sasha to reunite and once again fight for minutes.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/ Myles Brown

    Bynum may be back, but he only played 7 minutes last night. They’re probably gonna bring him along slow. And it would’ve been nicer to have it before but neither you nor I know if it was available then.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    Haha at Adam getting greedy after that smorgasbord of tight games / buzzer beaters we got last week.
    Oh how we all are spoilt by this association.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    The Lakers get like 6 million dollar trade exception from the deal as well so this may be a prelude to another deal later down the road.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Smorgasbord… Nice one Dark. Even after eating a massive lunch just minutes ago, you managed to make my mouth water. Christmas is the worst time being a long way from home for any Scandinavian.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    Lz: tell me about it, luckily i’m flying back to Europe in two days for Xmas. (well lucky because of family etc, ghastly cause i’m leaving humid, hot SE-Asia to go freeze my butt off in Zurich…ouch)
    Didn’t know you were a northern brethren, only been up there once…LUVED Stockholm.
    Hope you enjoy Christmas, wherever you are, man.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Shannon Brown for most improved player and he deserves to be in the three point contest and dunk contest again.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    @Dark: I’m Copenhagen born and raised living in São Paulo, Brasil so unfortunately I am a long way from Smorgasbord or ‘Smørrebrødsbord’ (as it is called in Danish) and that is one thing about Xmas in the cold North that is annoying to miss. Stockholm is nice and all but Cph is the place to be in Scandinavia; a much more vibrant and international city feel to it. Even though I am biased you can take my word from it.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    dontlettheseedcomment.com

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    SE-Asia, where are you at (and from originally)?
    I know exactly what you are saying about the ghastly cold. I was planning to go home for X-mas, but after finding out they have heavy snowfall, below zero temperatures and thunderstorms in Cph I decided to around these +30 degree parts.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    ACtually, Shannon Brown is crazy improved. He is current a 50/40/90 guy and we all know that’s the holy grail for stat dudes.
    Orlando pisses me off. Dwight has improved and everybody else has regressed. WTH.
    Nick Young and Javale McGee play the same video game system. Gilbert Arenas bought it for them.

  • http://google c_cantrell

    ^Lz..
    i wish this site had a “like” button lol i would for sure like your seed comment

  • http://google c_cantrell

    ^Allenp..
    dwight has only slightly improved on the offensive end (i feel kinda let down after all the talk about how hakeem had tought the big fella some proper post moves and trained him throughout the summer) but has regressed slightly on the defensive side.. tho he is managing to not foul quite as much his defense is not what it has been the last 2 years and he is most likely not going to lead the league in blocks and rebounds for a 3rd straight year.. not as long as that love dude out in minny keeps doin his thing anyway

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    @Allenp: I agree that Shannon is improved. But most improved player rarely goes to a guy of the bench, and other players: Love, Rose, Westbrook, E. Gordon just to name a few are far more obivious candidates imo. Anyways my point was more referring to The Seed; literally every time he posts it is some completely LAL-biased rumblings… EVERY SINGLE TIME… it is getting very old.

  • http://afjkl.com Jukai

    The Seed… I know you are a Lakers fan and prone to hyperbole but… well, just for laughs:
    Gibson last season: 6.3ppg, 1.3rpg, 1.3apg
    Gibson this season: 13.2ppg, 3.3rpg, 3.0apg
    Weems last season: 7.5ppg, 2.8rpg, 1.5apg
    Weems this season: 11.7ppg, 3.0rpg, 2.2apg
    Scola last season: 16.2ppg, 8.6rpg, .3bpg
    Scola this season: 20.3ppg, 9.0rpg, .9bpg
    Milsap last season: 11.6ppg, 6.8rpg, 1.6apg, 0.6spg
    Milsap this season: 17.9ppg, 8.1rpg, 2.4apg, 1.5spg
    Gordon last season: 16.9ppg, 2.6rpg, 3.0apg
    Gordon this season: 24.5ppg, 3.2rpg, 4.6apg
    Westbrook last season: 16.1ppg, 4.9rpg, 8.0 apg, 1.3spg
    Westbrook this season: 23.6ppg, 5.3rpg, 8.8 apg, 2.1spg
    Love last season: 14.0ppg, 11.0rpg
    Love this season: 20.2ppg, 15.6rpg
    …………..
    …………..
    …………..
    Shannon last season: 8.1ppg, 2.2rpg, 1.3apg, 0.7spg
    Shannon this season: 10.8ppg, 2.5rpg, 1.2apg, 1.1spg
    Not really that impressive of a leap. Percentages are up, but he doesn’t shoot 50% from the field. He’s not 50/40/90.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Oh, that’s what they said on NBATV last night, I didn’t check it for myself.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I noticed it the first game the Magic played the Heat early in the season…..the rest of the starters stood around and did nothing while Dwight tried to showcase his new found skills. I’m not sure if it’s a carry over, but their team seems disjointed (maybe cause of the Vince trade rumors)but as they are constructed currently,they’re not a legit threat. A good front office move could aleviate that….but that would require Otis Smith to do some real work and I haven’t seen him do anything worthwhile except trade Hedo, overpay Lewis and overpay Gortat.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    Roy Hibbert is going to get MIP

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    But Shannon is averaging those number in only 19 mins a game which is pretty remarkable. So per 48 mins he is well over 20ppg

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Dwight has improved IMMENSLEY on offense Cantrell.
    Hell, he never shot a jumper during games last year, and now that’a s got to move. Huge improvement.
    He’s using counters in the post when players take away his first move, huge improvement. He’s getting far fewer offensive fouls, again, huge improvement.
    Those aren’t little changes for a post man. He’s not as fluid as Hakeem, and likely never will be, but he’s quickly approaching the level of moves that Shaq and Alonzo Mourning had for their entire career, and that’s more than sufficient given his athletic gifts.

  • http://afjkl.com Jukai

    I totally forgot about Hibbert!
    Hibbert last season: 11.7ppg, 5.7rpg, 2apg
    Hibbert this season: 14.4ppg, 8.4rpg, 3apg
    Stats raised less than I thought, but he’s definitely in the running.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Dwight improved more than a little. ……… I dont think second or third years players should even be eligible for mip, because youre supposed to improve greatly in the first few years

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Eboy
    Can you blame Otis? It seems like Stan the Man hasn’t figures out how to run plays for his big man that also get good looks for his shooters. Also, the Magic take too many three in transition, and don’t reward Dwight nearly enough for how well he runs the floor and establishes good position.
    But, right now, the Magic are running the old Houston offense with Hakeem, which was basically dump it in the post, get out of the way, and hope for a double team. That could work with Dream because he was just that good, but Dwight isn’t on that level yet. It reminds me of what the Lakers used to do with Shaq before Phil came and established the triangle and started getting everybody good shots.
    Plus, the Magic as a team aren’t good enough on defense. Vince is a disgrace and Shard isn’t much better.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    Juks you also forgot Mr. Beasley lol

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    I watch just about every NBA and stats do not tell the whole story. Brown has been the Lakers fourth best player all season and has been responsible for about 3 victories single handedly. If he continues to improve he may be the heir apparent to Fisher at the PG spot.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Contrary to popular belief, Odom has been the Lakers second most consistent player behind Kobe and not Gasol and he deserves some all star consideration this year.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Westbrooks numbers make me want to slap my momma

  • http://google c_cantrell

    ^allenp..
    he is not even in the same discussion of offense as shaq is (was).. and he honestly hasnt put up much better numbers than he usually does.. jus 3 more ppg than usual? not impressive.. he has added much more moves to his game but it is honestly not doing much damage

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Stan’s coaching life is on the line this season. If the Magic flame out early, The Van Gundy Boys can take their arguing act on the road each week in the ESPN NBA bus sharing announcing duties.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Cantrell
    If you just look at his stats, then he doesn’t look improved. If you watch him play, and remember what he could and could not do before, he looks impressive.
    And I said he’s approaching Shaq and Zo as for as his offensive arsenal. Neither of those guys had a huge array of moves, particularly Zo. But they were both 20 and 10 guys from their rookie years on.
    Anyway, if you disagree, that’s fine.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Dwight may actually have more moves than Zo did…even after Zo was 10 years in the league. HOWEVA…..dude has to be consistent with it.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Check out this link to see how his field goal percentage from different spots on the floor has improved incredibly, even though his overall field goal percentage has dropped. He’s a much more dangerous scorer.
    http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Dwight Howard

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    dwight only gets like 14 shots a game. If shaq averaged 14 shots a game during a season when he was still “the man” he would have gone apesh*t – dwight is too passive for us to ever find out if he could be like shaq

  • http://google c_cantrell

    ^allenp..
    as i jus got done saying dude has added some moves on the offensive end.. but he still is not too much more impressive and is still not close to what shaq used to be down low

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/ Diesel

    Tarzan – you’re the biggest Rose hater on this site yet Westbrook’s numbers make you want to slap your mama. SMH at your hypocritical ways. So Rose’s 24.7 ppg,8.3 apg, 4.4 rpg, and 1 spg does nothing for you?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I didn’t realize Eric Gordon was killing like that. Damn you Baron Davis and Vinny Del Negro and Donald Sterling.
    That team should be ridiculous with all that talent.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Shaq was a guaranteed two points when he got the ball in the paint. People forgot how dominant he was.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Cantrell
    I’m not comparing him to Shaq as a dominant force. I’m talking about their offensive arsenal. That’s a big difference.
    Before this year, Shaq’s offensive arsenal at the same age was better than Dwight’s, and given the fact that Shaq’s arsenal wasn’t exactly overflowing, that was a disgrace. Now, Dwight has added go to moves that he’s using in games and being effective with. I’ve seen him give several credible frontlines the business, but the only problem is that the rest of the Magic just stand around the three poitn line and watch him work. They have to find a better balance.
    Alonzo really only had a face up jumper, and the rolling hook to the right. His jump hook was decent, not great. But, he used those moves, plus his hustle and effort to be a 20 and 10 guy. Right now, I think Dwight has reached the point where I would be shocked if he averages fewer than 20 points a game again until he’s in his decline. That’s a massive improvement over where he was last year in my opinion. And I don’t see teams eliminating him from the game anymore with on defender and daring him to score. He will score on just about anybody in the league right now.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    One, I’m not forgetting how good Shaq was because I never actually said Dwight was as good as Shaq.
    But, I wonder how many of y’all have actually watched Dwight closely this year. For years I’ve criticized Dwight, and I’m telling you, dude has stepped it up big time.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    @Allenp et Al: I agree that Dwight is clearly improved. But he is not near Shaq’s or maybe even Zo’s arsenal yet. Shaq was very nimble and coordinated and had a 100 ways to use his body to get into dunking position. Dwight still doesn’t know how to do this consistenly, his jumper and his hook has improved plenty, but like Eboy mentions are still not very consistent, so has his counter moves like you mention, but he still have a tough time getting into dunking position when playing 1on1 or 1on2. Most of Dwights dunks come of lobs and ORebounds. Dunno about Zo maybe they have the same amount of moves, Zo’s jumper and hooks looked far more natural and I also think he was a better at driving face up to the cup. Not sure though, it has been a while since I watched Zo. The reason I am focusing on dunking position is because considered his physical gifts and lack of quality bigs in the league, this is what Dwight should try to focus on. Shaq was great at making sure he got the best shot possible – the dunk – as often as possible.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Diesel, rose is putting up nice numbes too, but thats not what bothers me, its all the hype and mvp talk. Russ has higher board, assist, and steals. So, if rose is mvp candidate, then so is russ right?

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    That running hook shot Dwight does is of the ugliest shots ever. He has brought new moves in this year but he looks so uncomfortable when he scores. I cringe every time he shoots.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    If you look at hoop data, right now Derrick Rose is a WAY better shooter than Russell Westbrook. It’s not even close actually. If Rose had Westbrook’s free throw attempts he’d be average 30 a game easily.
    Hoop Data is a great site.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    Tarzan – yes, Westbrook is an MVP candidate right now. And so is Rose. And they both should be

  • http://google c_cantrell

    like i said once more lol i know he has added some moves offensively and i know he has improved but im just saying he hasnt improved that much using his new moves in the post.. but he is still young and will hopefully only improve.. and yes the rest of the magic do just kind of stand around.. and honestly the way to beat the magic is by letting howard do his thing and locking down the peremiter as the trailblazers did a few days ago.. so even tho he is dominating more his team is suffering more and losing more

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    LZ
    Good point, and I have to agree. You’re right, if we talk about Shaq’s ability to get into position to dunk, which I wasn’t considering, then Shaq still has him beat. I was more thinking about actual moves.
    Although, Dwight does get great position quite often, he just doesn’t get the rock like Shaq did. his team is not looking for him enough. He will never bee as fluid as Shaq, but he’s pretty dominant right now.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    To add my two cents to the Rose/Westbrook debate; Rose’s numbers are clearly impressive as are Westbrooks, the difference for me (and I am guessing Tarzan) is just the incredible hype surrounding Rose compared to Westbrook and others. Their stats are about equal with Rose scoring a little more (although on more high-volume shooting) and Westbrook being better in APG and all the hustle stats. But much like with Nash Rose’s offensive greatness once again blinds people, Rose is a liability on D whereas Westbrook is a stopper and one of the best in the L at his position. They are comparable on O but on D Westbrook is light years ahead – Rose is still learning the fundamentals. Which in my opinion gives Russ a clear advantage. Remember defense wins championships but over and over again a players ability on that side of the ball gets neglected when comparing players.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    good point Lz. I would just like to point out one thing, Rose’s opponent PER for 48 minutes = 17.4 Westbrook’s opponent PER for 48 minutes = 22.0 – Now i’m not saying this dictates Rose as better or even an equal defender, but I think its pretty clear westbrook isn’t “light years” ahead of him

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I think Westbrook is a very good defender, particularly against most point guards. I think Rose is average, sometimes below average.
    I actually think Westbrook and Rondo are both a little overrated on defense, because despite their obvious physical gifts both of them get lit up by the better points. I think they both gamble a tad too much.
    I still like Dwil as a defender better than almost anybody else.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    We agree Allenp. I have never liked Dwight much (his childish demanor and lack of moves I guess) but I have been impressed with him this year as well, and although he will never be a favorite of mine I have a newfound respect for his game. Concerning Shaq; they might not have been actual moves like say a sky-hook or fadeaway, but Shaq was a master in manouvering himself into dunking position and that is at least as valuable as a good hookshot; puts more pressure on the D, draws more fouls, dishes out more physical abuse (remember Robert Parish) and all out demoralizes the other team and swings momentum. Dwight should really take a look at how Shaq did those ‘moves’, he might never be as good as Shaq at it (nobody ever was) but he should be getting more dunks going 1on1. I agree that Dwight often gets good position, but he doesn’t demand the ball in the same way Shaq and others do/did and when he gets it he lacks the mean streak that Shaq had, where he kind of wanted to break the hands of people stopping his dunks. One can see it in the way they throw it down when unguarded under the basket. Shaq would literally try to rip down the backboard whereas Dwight just goes up high and throws it through the rim with power, but often without even touching the rim much. Considering his physical gifts Dwight is still a rookie when it comes to intimidating.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    NBK, which site do you use to get those stats?

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    82games homie

  • http://afjkl.com Jukai

    @Kap: I know there’s a lot more than stats, but many of these most improved guys have gone from bench to second/first options… Shannon is still a fourth option. He’s not top-5 MIP.
    @NBK: Actually, I didn’t forget about Beasley. I went to chart down his stats but the only thing that raised significantly was his points and three point shooting. Everything else was the same or dropped. He’s vastly improved but maybe not MOST improved, y’know?
    @Allen: Zo had a lot more range than both Shaq and Dwight. He was also a lot faster on the drive, better handle on his dribble. Seems like you’re mostly talking about moves in the paint though, in which case, you’re very right.
    @LZ: I agree that Westbrook is lightyears ahead defensively, but I think Rose is a lot better offensively (scoring-wise, anyway. Passing they are around equal). Westbrook rarely finds himself the center of the defensive schemes, a lot of time he scores on isos when the defense is concentrated on stopping Durant. Rose sees double teams and big-man help defense CONSTANTLY centered around him. It’s a lot harder for Rose to score. I don’t think Westbrook could do that. Everyone was so impressed with Westbrook’s offensive production against the Nets, but that was in 3 overtimes!!!! Rose scores that much in regulation.
    Not saying Rose is head over heals better as a player (although I do think so) but I’m saying Rose is that much better of a scorer.

  • http://afjkl.com Jukai

    @Allenp: I mean, who do you think is a good defender on the wing? You keep saying all these great defenders are overrated, but in reality, you really CAN’T do anything to stop anyone in isolation anymore. No handchecking, plus ticky-tac fouls, equals no stopping anyone. Rondo and Westbrook probably do the best job.
    I think Rondo gambles as much as he does because he knows he can with Garnett/Perkins/Shaq in the backcourt. If they were not there, he would not gamble.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Nbk, nobody plays 48 mins, so throw that crap away. And allens right about deron.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Allenp: First of all they might be a little overrated on D. But with the no hand check rules there is absolutely no stopping the top PG’s in the L when they are on their game. So yes even Rondo and Russ gets lit up. NBK: Stats is not everything and from watching the games of Rose and Westbrook, I stand by my initial point that Westbrook is light years ahead. They both have incredible gifts to play D. But whereas Russ knows how to use them and generally keeps in front of his man, uses his strength to body up and his vertical and quick hands to get blocks and deflections, Rose looks completely lost out there and rarely can even stay in front of his man. The reason for his good PER, that Thibeau (sp?) guy on the bench. His coach is a defensive master so his weakness gets hidden by the system. And just to cap it of Russ is just much more tenacious and really gets after it in any way possible to get the win. Whereas Rose seems more interested in being the hero (which he is great at no doubt).

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    gotchu jukai, i just saw him on ESPN’s list at like #2 smh. I personally agree with you he shouldn’t be considered for the award, he is scoring like he did in college, not surprising. And he has been as inconsistent as ever even at that. How you feel about Mike Conley as a candidate? I don’t think he is MIP but for all the conley bashing that has gone on, i think he should get a nod atleast

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I just said I like Deron.
    I like Shane Battier.
    I like Igoudala, actually.
    I lke LeBron.
    I like all those guys’ defense.
    I like Affalo in Denver.
    I Mbah Moute with the Bucks.
    I like players who make other players work for everything they get, even if they don’t get flashy defensive stats.
    I like Batum in Portland, and Matthews.
    I think those cats don’t get enough credit, particularly Deron.
    When was the last time y’all remember somebody going to Utah and just killing Deron?

  • Drew

    McGee needs a tutor. Wizards should call up The Dream and teach this fool a thing or two.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    Tarzan you obviously don’t understand so don’t worry about it. @Lz I am not arguing against you that Westbrook is better, not at all. Actually yesterday on the post-up i listed my “best defensive pg’s” and i believe i had westbrook at 3 or 4. so i’m with you, i just was pointing out that Rose isn’t that horrid. oh and yes, i’m aware thibedaeu is the main reason for the difference between the two.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    I understand very well. Nobody plays 48. If those stats were based of 36 mins, it would be more credible. And wes matthews will be a multiple all star. Hard to believe everyone passed on him

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    Iguodala is way underrated as a defender.
    Really enjoyed how he was tasked with defending a red hot Linas Kleiza in the World championship semis and really frustrated Lithuania’s main scorer by the end of the opening quarter. He’s probably among the top 5 strongest SG’s in the league and has good speed/reflexes/hops.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    48 minutes is the length of the game, the stats are adjusted (not changed at all) to show the impact a player would have over a whole game. Nobody plays exactly 36 minutes either, some guys play more, some play less. They are both relative numbers dude

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    @Jukai: To talk about Russ/Rose on O (scoring-wise, we agree on the passing part). I will break it down like this; Rose better at beating his man/splitting the D, Both great at finishing at the rim – Rose normally avoids the D and is more creative with his lay-ups whereas Russ takes it to the teeth of the defenders hence he gets to the line more, Russ is a much more reliable FT shooter, Russ shoots the mid-range J better, Ross shoots floater/semi hooks better, 3′s I don’t really know they are both kind of suspect but seems like Rose is improving lately (could be just a lucky roll or could be for real time will tell), Russ is better at getting hustle baskets (tip ins, ORebounds, broken plays), Rose is more of a go-to scorer than Russ, but they are both clutch and I honestly think that Russ picks his spots better considering they are PG’s and that their foremost job is to run the O, they are about even on fastbreaks and at cutting without the ball (maybe Rose a slight edge in cutting). I am willing to concede that Rose is a slightly better scorer, but I don’t think he is a more effective scorer and the difference on O is not even close to being as big as the difference on D (which should be 50% of evaluating a player, maybe even more considering that good defenders are harder to come by than players who can score in the NBA). All in all I think Westbrook is the better player, they are both very good soon to be great and as a Bulls’ fan I hope Rose will improve especially on D. But right now I have to go with Russ as the best. Again the tenacity he plays with on both ends sets him apart.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    Wes Matthews per (you favorite per 36 minutes), 18points 4 rebounds 2 assists. that is not going to get a single all star selection. he is a way better player then people expected but all star, I don’t ever see that happening

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    With Drose ‘nonbelievers’ it’s always the same thing. He’s CARRYING a team people. Yes. Westbrook still has what Slam considers the 3rd best player in the NBA alongside him, and don’t start talking about Boozer because the people that bring him up regarding a Rose/Other PG comparison, are the same people that bring him down. Rose is an improving defender, he’s shooting 42% from 3 this year. Amazing. He’s improved his passing game, he always had good vision but he’s really distributing the ball nice this year. Too bad Bogans and Brewer can make a shot too save their life or Rose would have even more than 8+assists per game. I like Westbrook but Rose>Westbrook anyday of the week.

  • T-Money

    Rondo is way overrated as a defender. Doc Rivers went on the record last year saying that bigger point guards were taking advantage of him constantly. He’s good in the passing lanes but he gets beat off the bounce on the reg. D-Rose’s defense is pretty much non existent. Can’t comment on Westbrook, haven’t watched him much. the tricky thing about defense is that you can’t mistake activity for achievement. for example, last year on the cavs mo williams was always the one to pressure the ball up to halfcourt and clap his hand and move his feet… just to get beat down the lane every time. bron on the other hand NEVER jumps to contest a shot (only raises his arm), tries to eliminate all unnecessary movement, and counts on his length/athleticism to wait a split second for the offensive player to fully commit in a direction before moving himself. it doesn’t seem like inspired defense until you realize that the opposing small forward has not gotten a clean look all game.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    LZ
    I think Rose is far more crafty and shift than Westbrook on offense. Watch him play a little more and notice all the little plays and decisions he make that are key to any elite point guard. Westbrook is still learning the basics of the position, while Rose is already in the advanced class as far as offense. I think we’ll see the gap expand once teams start understanding a little more what Westbrook does well and what he does poorly as the year goes on, because they are still operating from the old playbook that he’s a very poor shooter and that’s just not the case.
    On the other hand, I think that by the end of the year, the only weakness is Rose’s offensive game will be the fact that he doesn’t concentrate on drawing more fouls. Right now, that’s the only reason Westbrook is even close to him in ppg.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/ Diesel

    Lz – almost every statement you just made was factually incorrect. Rose’s percentages are better from 3, mid range, and at the rim. Russ’s “much more reliable free throw shooting” is at 81% for his career while Rose’s is at 77%, not a huge difference. I don’t have the information, but it would be interesting to see how many of Westbrook’s assists are to KD. I think the fact that he has a dead eye shooter/scorer on his team helps his assists numbers. @tarzan – they are both MVP candidates. If we were to go by the most literal meaning of the award, Rose is much more valuable to his team than Westbrook. OKC could still be decent with just KD. Without Rose the Bulls are done.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    I would like to point out that Rajon Rondo has been considered the best defensive pg in the NBA by – the coaches and the gm’s – The Celtics last season also had a bigger dip in defensive efficiency without Rondo then the Magic did without Dwight Howard. this is a quote from john hollinger “First team: Rajon Rondo, Celtics (+0.07)
    Though his stats won’t blow you away like they did the past two seasons, I don’t think there’s any real doubt anymore that Rondo is the best defensive point guard in the game. You wish he wouldn’t try to gamble for steals from behind quite so often, but the combination of his quickness and long arms, and Boston’s impeccable defensive schemes, makes him a nightmare opponent for opposing point guards.”

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Rose for MIP. Seriously. Dude has improved TREMENDOUSLY from year 2 to year 3. And Rose vs. Westbrook is getting kind of old. Matter of fact, Rose vs. whoever is getting kind of old. Why does he always gotta be compared to other PG’s? Let Derrick Rose live!

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    who you want us to compare Rose to? Monta Ellis?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    NBK
    You watch the game homie, what’s your thoughts from watching the games.
    The GMs also said they’d rather build around Durant than LeBron and that’s just stupid.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    How about nobody, nbk? Just let dude play. Damn.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    I think Rondo understands the game better then 95% of PG’s in the league. ANd outside of CP, Deron, Nash, and Kidd he understands his teams system better everyone, even some of his coaches. I think his gambles come at the right time or the most part (in a half court set where he knows he has rim help), although as most would, i think he would be better served to gamble a little less. I also know or haven’t seen in the 15ish celtics games i’ve watched he has not been outplayed by a single opposing PG this season

  • JTaylor21

    My thoughts on the Rose vs Russ saga is that Rose is a slighty better PG while Russ is a slightly better player. For one, Rose is ahead of Russ when it comes to playing the position well and knowing when to attack and when not to while Russ is a better player due to the fact that he’s a way better defender. It all depends on who you rather have; a better PG who can run a team efficently but struggles on the defensive end or a a better player playing the PG position who still has some ways to go to fully master the position but is an excellent scorer and defender. Even Rose is my favorite PG outside of CP3, I would pick Russ if I were a GM building a team.

  • T-Money

    nbk: i’ve watched chauncey billups and rodney stuckey last year call their own numbers vs rondo on the block over and over again. boston had to start sending help. he was completely helpless on the block, he doesn’t know how to defend down there. and i don’t have any stats to back this up but from having watched a lot of boston games over the last few years, point guards have no problem getting into the lane vs boston – the problem is that they get completely smothered by the bigs once they’re in there (big baby ready for the charge, kg contesting the shot, perks just throwing his weight around, etc). Piere once said that any wing can be a lockdown defender when you have a tremendous second line back there and I think that’s what’s happening to Rondo. Again, I don’t have stats to back this up but the naked eye tells me that Rondo does not keep point guards outside of the paint.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Allenp, I do indeed watch Rose play a lot (Bulls’ fan here). And yes I have to agree that he is more advanced offensively than Westbrook, better scorer like I discussed in prior post. However I do think that Westbrook’s tenacity makes up for a lot of this. Diesel read my post again, I did say that Rose was probably the better 3p shooter, concerning mid range I will still roll with Russ no matter what your stats show, he is wet on that pull-up whereas Rose throws up weird looking floaters half the time he shoots from mid-range, the disparity in free throws is indeed small %-wise (smaller than I expected) but if you watch the games you will see Russ ice all freebies in the 4Q (Boston away for example) where Rose looks very uncomfortable at the line late in games (LAL at home, where his miss made it closer than it had to be and they brought Korver on to absorb fouls whereas OKC use Russ/Durant in that role). Anyways I reckon that Rose is a slightly better O player I have been saying that several times, but since Russ is way better on D and this should be 50% of his evaluation he is the overall better player imo. What is really wrong with that logic, please tell me? If you guys think that the gap Rose>Westbrook on O is bigger than Russ>Rose on D, I am sorry but then you are just plain wrong. If you rank O higher than D, fair enough then we just don’t agree on evaluationg players. No harm done. I like D. Rose a lot so don’t give me that ‘he is a hater non-believer’ BS. I have been praising both their games all along.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    well considering there is about 5 points left in the whole league that will post up. I don’t think that’s a very strong case for why he isn’t the best. A point guards job is to be good at applying pressure and guarding the perimeter. What they can do defensively from the block is a bonus.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    And as much as ya’ll don’t like it, i will use PER again to show Rondo is better then every other PG on defense.

    Rondo holds opposing PG’s to a 12.4 PER
    Deron Williams – 14.2
    Chris Paul – 17.6
    Devin Harris – 16.2
    Jameer Nelson – 19.1 (just to prove shot blockers don’t help all that much)
    Brandon Jennings – 17.9
    Jrue Holiday – 18.9
    Russel Westbrook – 22.0
    Jason Kidd – 15.5

    You can discount PER all you want, you can say whatever you want about Bostons system, but the closest guy to Rondo is Deron Williams. Rondo has the best defensive PER of any starting PG in the NBA.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Btw NBK if you look at their FT shooting this season. Russ is at 87% and Rose at 76%, big big difference. You were smart to use career numbers which were good for your argument, but what matters is this year right now…

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Does Rondo all by his lonesome hold opposing PGs to that low PER (I hate that sh*t too) or does the entire Celtics defense? Huge difference

  • JTaylor21

    Enigmatic is right, the entire celtics defense is responsible for Rondo holding opposing PGs PER that low. Rondo is a terrific gambler and plays the passing lane better than any PG but he won’t lock down any PG if he were on the wolves instead of celtics. Do people forget that Russ went for 30+ against him a couple of weeks back without KD in the lineup.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Ben Flook

    Good point Enigmatic. Although I agree that Rondo is the best defensive PG. He disrupts the offensive game plan more than any other PG, and some of that is because of the gambles he makes.
    Roy Hibbert is not a shoe in for MIP. A lot of people predicted a break out year for him, but his numbers are not in line with some of those expectations. Jim Obrien himself said that he is not having that great of a season. He’s in the running, but not leading the way.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    like i said, Boston’s system obviously has a lot to do with it. BUT that number, and the FACT, that Rondo was voted best defensive PG by the GM’s (even if they say questionable things about a 21 year old who led the league in scoring without the ability to outmuscle a single defender, like picking him over LeBron to start a team), and the coaches (Rondo had the second most votes for All Defense 1st team last season to Dwight Howard). Lets also add that Rondo Boston was 8 points better on defense per 48minutes with Rondo on the court, HIS ROOKIE SEASON, it should be pretty obvious that he is an elite defender

  • http://www.slamonline.com Ben Flook

    Also, in the next 2-3 years Demar is going to be a top 5 SG.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    JTaylor
    You made my point about Westbrook toasting Rondo without KD.
    And we all know Rose has toasted him, althought the performance in Rose’s rookie year is a tad inflated because of Rose’s amazing first game.
    I”m going to see if I can find the scoring numbers for points against Rondo because I’m pretty certain several guards have given him work, and it’s only because of his help, the system and the players, that he has such good numbers.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    Rondo also held his opponent to a 17.0PER his rookie year, when the Celtics were the worst team in the NBA. And if your going to try and say he hasn’t improved ten-fold since his rookie year then your just lying to yourself

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/ Diesel

    Everyone please stop saying Westbrook is light years ahead of Rose on D. That would imply that Westbrook is all defensive team and Rose is giving up Nash type numbers. Neither is true. They are pretty close on defense. Rose is much improved on Defense this year. This is carrying over from the Worlds. So he’s maintained that level of D for over 4 months now. Which makes me think its a legitimate improvement.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I went to NBA. com and ran point, rebounds assists for all guards versus Boston so far this year. The numbers are interesting for those of you who want to check them out. I’ll include the link in my next comment, but if y’all want to go look it up before it goes through moderation, feel free.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp
  • JTaylor21

    Rondo is a very good defender but a great one he is not. You can not be a great defender in my book if all you do is gamble for steals and play the passing lanes while you get beat off the dribble consistently. Many PGs beat Rondo off the dribble but they have a hard-time scoring after getting past him due to the celtics tremendous help-D. That should explain why opposing PGs PER are that low. Guys like CP3/DWill/DRose/Russ have always gotten the best of him even with great help-D around him.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    yeah ima check that out

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    From what I can see, Rondo locks down average and below average points, but against good to great players he’s not that awesome. Now, I know that nobody shuts down guards these days because of the rules, but still.
    When you look at the list of who gets off against Boston, quite a few point guards are at the top of the list in total, and in scoring. By comparison, in Utah, Brandon Jennings is the only point guard who makes the top ten as going off against the Jazz, and it’s clear that Deron does not have the frontline support Rondo has.
    Check it out for yourselves.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    Uhm Allen there is only 3 PG’s on that whole list that even gets to their season averages.
    Russel Westbrook
    Andre Miller
    Ty Lawson.

  • JTaylor21

    Thanks AllenP, great stats, It backs up my claim that even though Rondo’s a great gambler, he’s not the great defender the media and everyone thinks he is. Dwill on the other hand gets no love for his D because it’s not flahsy and he doesn’t put up huge steal numbers but he’a a better defender than most PGs because for one he doesn’t gamble or try to go for the steal instead he uses his size to his advantage and forces opposing PGs to try to shoot over him and he has more than enough foot speed to stay with them. The numbers don’t lie people, DWill’s D > Rondo’s D.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    and all of last year, the number doesn’t equal 10

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    How you figure that? Felton got 17, Boobie got 16. Those are their season averages, right?
    Like I said, Rondo and Boston expose subpar points. Rondo does not lockdown elite, or even very good points.
    But he’s not as bad as Los Angeles. Good googly moogly are the Lakers getting ate up by guards.

  • Simon

    you Know? i am so tired of it. tired of the endless debates–> Kobe – lebron. westbrook – Rose. Kobe – mj. Thats all you Care and Talk about. i look always look forward to th comments but its getting awfully repetetive! please fellas, cant we Talk about something Else for a Change?

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    Deron Williams on the other hand has had atleast 8 opposing PG’s this season get to or exceed their season averages.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    sure Simon how is the weather where you live. What in the world you want people to talk about on a basketball website other then basketball. and comparing players is how you judge a guys talent, its the only way possible

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    I missed Gibson, I saw felton, and I also noticed the 6 assists, and 2 turnovers to go with his 17 points.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Season average is a flawed way to judge, don’t you think?
    How many teams in general score their season average against Boston? So it would stand to reason that most guards don’t get their season average. I would imagine it makes more sense to see who goes off against Boston, and how many of those players are points guards, right?

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    Russel Westbrook averages 7.5 turnovers vs Rondo. So he got to his season average 22.5ppg, 8apg, but he also averages 7.5TOPG. so that’s not really dominating now is it?

  • JTaylor21

    I think that looking at this year stats doesn’t give enough evidence to back up anybody claims. Look at last years stats and you will see that guys like DRose, CP3, AMiller, DCollison, ABrooks, CBillups, RStuckey and hell even BDiddy all avg. higher PPGs than their season avgs. vs the celtics.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    PER is the best way to judge a players performance in any given game. But ya’ll discount that because its too geeky or whatever. Showing averages is the next best thing. You can’t say Rondo is not a good defender against elite to good point guards when very few of them are performing like they do on a regular basis. that doesn’t hold water

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    But we all saw that game. We saw him dominating Rondo. Now, at the end of the game, the offense turned into him strictly forcing shots off pick and roll because nobody else could score, but we SAW him killing Rondo.

  • JTaylor21

    This may be off topic but CB1 avg. 25/12 last year vs the same guy (KG) people claims owns him. Talk about debunking a myth.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    why is 23 points killing? what in the world, he can get to the hoop on everyone, if your looking for a pg he can’t get to the hoop on you will be searching forever. In the first game against boston he had 16points 10 assists and 8 turnovers. on 6 for 16

    In the second game he had 31points 6 assists and 7 turnovers on 9 for 21 shooting. he also went an uncharacteristic 2 for 3 from 3pt range.

    there is a difference between having a really good game, and killing. plus i wish we could see a breakdown of minutes per quarter because Rondo played 3 less minutes in the game then Westbrook, but OKC only scored 12 points in the whole 4th quarter. and Rondo typically plays atleast 8 minutes in the fourth.

  • JTaylor21

    Come on NBK, stop with the BS. Anyone who saw that okc vs bos game, saw Russ putting it on Rondo the entire game and that was without his team’s best scoring option which means that he did all that even with the bos defense’s entire focus on him. The TO’s come with the territory when a player has to shoulder his team’s entire offense vs a great defensive team. Give props when it’s due.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Did you see the Boston game NBK?

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    For the past week or so, slam has been full of adult discussions on basketball. Many people have differing opinions, and present their ideas to debate with others. Noticeably absent is all the name calling, insults, and trash talking. When I look at whos been around in this time, I see the usual commenters. I see emiddleagedman, allen, jtaylor, nbk, myself, lz, seed, etc. Then I ask myself, whos missing thats always a big part of all the nonbasketball nonsense? Its quite an interesting answer.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    then why aren’t you talking about the first game, with durant, when he went for 16, 10, and 8 turnovers. what’s your excuse for that game? focusing on one game is more ridiculous then me focusing on every opponent Rondo has had. And there is literally no evidence of a better defensive PG in the whole league. The only thing ya’ll are using are your opinions and the occasional (very occasional) big game by an opposing PG. Ya’ll chalk Rondo’s defensive ability to Boston’s overall defensive aptitude, except only one of their players other then Rondo is known for his defense. Kevin Garnett, pierce & allen were known as below average defenders for most their career. shaq hasn’t been much of a defensive force for 5 years, but still Rondo is the one who is overrated. Its understandable to talk about his teammates on offense as to why he is so dominate, but on the other side there is no proof whatsoever of you being right. I even used Rondo’s rookie year, on the worst team in the NBA as evidence.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I don’t believe that stats along are “proof.” There are too many instances when stats have been skewed and go against what people with basketball knowledge can see from watching the game is true.
    So, while I respect stats, I only use them as part of my determination. You seem to give them far more credence than I do in certain instances.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    yes i watched all of that game allen. And why isn’t derrick rose dominating on defense this season if the system is such a huge aspect, Chicago is very very similar to Boston defensively, and they have the exact same architect

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    I agree, I do put more stock in stats for certain things. If I had a synergy sports account I would use that to prove where I’m comin from on this and those stats would be discounted too, even though they track every single little thing that happens on a basketball court. I mean what else you want me to use though, professional evidence like the coaches and gm’s voting? i already did that, use proof by advance stats? i did that too. show how other guards underperform? did that too. what else is there?

  • JTaylor21

    KG has been a great defender since his Sota days and the only reason he didn’t get the same respect he gets today is because he played for freaking sota. No one is saying that there’s a lock-down defensive PG out there because it would be impossible to lock down any top-flight NBA player but Rondo is not as great a defender as everyone thinks. He gambles too much, gets beat off the dribble too easily, struggles against big PGs, and has the benefit of playing on the best defensive team in the L. The reason why Pip in my opinion is the greatest defensive player of all-time is due to the fact that he rarely gambled and was never out of position on defense.

  • tony knorr

    son of a…. can somebody please do something to ensure the seed is not allowed to post on this site. Ryne the mag says you are the online editor. do something please I couldn’t possibly co-sign a sentiment more than the above dontlettheseedcomment.com posted by Lz.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    NBK
    Chicago does not have the same players as Boston so their defense isn’t as good, but let’s be clear. Rondo is better than D Rose by a LOT as a defender. I never argued he wasn’t. I’ve also said Westbrook is much better than Rose.
    I just don’t see either of them as elite in the overall sense as defenders, although I guess if you compare them to the guards in the league currently, they would be elite.
    I meant objectively, when considering what makes a player a good defender, I see them as both being pretty far down the list because of the gambling and the trouble they have keeping players in front of them at times. (Talking about Westbrook and Rondo) I don’t feel like in the games I’ve watched, I’ve seen those same sort of problems from someone like Dwil, but that’s my opinion.
    This is a case where I feel that the metrics you’re using can be skewed. I feel coaches and GMs are swayed by popularity, which explains how Kobe and Jason Kidd have been all defense in recent years even though it’s obvious their defense is nowhere near an elite level anymore. It’s why Josh Smith was second team all-defense.
    Ultimately, it’s an opinion thing, and I respect your opinion even if I disagree with it, but I don’t think what you’ve cited as “proof” is truly as definitive as you think.
    It’s cool.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    if its part of their system for him to gamble, and it isn’t hurting the team then i don’t see the complaint. He creates 4-6 PPG off of turnovers, which translates to an 8-12 point swing for the Celtics. And considering he is statistically the best defensive pg in the NBA without accounting for his steals (opponent PER obviously does not count for Rondo’s steals) then its safe to assume he is not hurting his team much at all with his gambling. I think he reaches on the ball a little too much, but his gambles are not as hurtful as ya’ll are makin it sound

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/ Diesel

    nbk – because defensive systems take a long time to implement. We’re just now starting to see the effects of Thib’s scheme.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    I respect that Allen

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    Diesel are you saying that Rose will be as good as Rondo on defense in the near future? because Rondo was doing a very similar amount of damage on defense the first year they had the big 3. Actually Rondo was considered an elite defensive PG before he was even drafted.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Simon please enlighten us repetitive fools with a untouched yet interesting topic about basketball?

  • JTaylor21

    No one is saying that Rondo’s gambling is bad or detrimental to the celtics but with regards to him be the so-called best defensive PG in the L, I hold that against him. I repeat you can not be the best defensive player at any positon when all you do is gamble and play the passing lanes for steals. Also how can you be the best defensive PG when you struggle against bigger PGs? The reason why JKidd was a great defender in his NJ days were due to the fact that a bigger PG couldn’t abuse him on the block and he had more than enough foot speed to stay with the quicker ones (Same thing with GP to a certain extent). I think that’s DWill is a better defender than all three guys.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    and here is a quote from synergy sports, in regards to peoples concerns of rondo being Posted UP – “According to Synergy Sports Technology, Rondo gets posted up less than once a game. Obviously, that’s not enough to detract from his overwhelmingly positive contributions on the defensive end.” that can be found on his draft express profile

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    oh and JTaylor, please name me a PG without a defensive weakness…? Deron Williams is clearly quick pg’s – Tony Parker dropped 24 and 7 on him, Brandon Jennings went for 27. and you will face a quick pg on a more consistent basis in todays NBA then big ones, thats for sure

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Kirk Hinrich is the best defensive PG in the NBA. Sorry.

  • JTaylor21

    NBK, that’s why I said that it would be impossible for there to be a lock-down defensive PG in the league due to the fact that there are so many great PGs out there. On the DWill struggles vs quick PGs, you’re right to a certain extent but I think that he’s lack of foot speed is wildly exaggerated because he has more than held his own against the lighting fast CP3 and who wouldn’t have a hard time staying in front of guys like BJennings and ABrooks? DWill is a better defensive PG than Rondo because he’s rarely out of position, doesn’t gamble on D, and wouldn’t get abused by big PGs. If rondo played on the jazz instead of the celtics, his tendency to gamble would be a negative on that team.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    I wont be getting into this convo, as I am finally leaving work. But for what is worth Rondo is clearly the best defensive PG in the L. Remember fellas it is okay to gamble as long as you win when gambling. For every time Rondo gambles and it ends up costing his team, there is at least a 1½ steals that lead to fastbreaks. Deron, Chalmers and Westbrook are very good defenders from the PG position, but Rondo is clearly the PG that disrupts the flow of the other team the most and annoys the other PGs the most, even with him gambling away like a drunk Charlie Sheen in Vegas. Thanks for the convo, I’m out. If Holly was still around you should ask her what I said before a Rondo-CP3 match-up some years ago, when everybody around here was saying that CP3 would tear Rondo up. After Rondo (as a rook I believe) played Paul to a stand still she said that she would never forget and never underestimate Rondo on D again. True story.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    or he wouldn’t gamble as much because he would have less help. your assuming things that you as of right now, will never be able to prove. I’m taking it for what it is, Rondo right now is more effective defending PG’s league wide then anyone. and as I am, I need proof to sway me another direction. I have league pass, I watch as many games as humanly possible, and based on pure opinion I think the defensive pg pecking order goes Rondo, Harris, Westbrook, Holiday, and Hill. Based on my opinion and the advanced stats/analyst professional opinion i would say it goes Rondo, Harris, Holiday, Williams/Westbrook, Chris Paul. (Infact, ESPN has Chris Paul as a top 5 defensive player of the year candidate for the 3rd time in 4 years).

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/ Diesel

    nbk – yes. maybe slightly worse since he actually has to conserve energy to score on the offensive end. That’s what suckers who don’t play with 3 HOF’s need to do.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    Rondo actually held Paul to a negative PER in a game in 2009. ANd had a game against Deron Williams where he finished with like 14 points and 3 assists, for his worst game of the season. But that was more then a calender year ago so I didn’t want to make that part of the argument

  • http://www.stonesthrow.com Michael NZ

    ^^^ Can I just say this comment section has been a good read. Kills me that my timezone destroys any chance of joining the discussion.

  • JTaylor21

    NBK, I respect your opinion, so I would agree to disagree. I just don’t value gambling as much as other people do because if gambling on defense and playing the passing lanes were the only criteria to judging whether or not one plays great defense, AI would’ve been a 5-time DPOY winner. I value guys who are always in position, only gamble and play the passing lanes when it’s necessary and do a great job of staying in front of their man. @Enigmatic, I thinkt that Hinrich mostly guards SG.

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    I value you the same things J, I just find Rondo to be one of the very best in the league at staying infront of, and changing the direction of the ball handler in the whole league. I wish there was a way too look at how deep into the shotclock teams start their offense, because I would be willing to wager that Boston, errr Rondo forces teams to start their sets later in the offense then any team in the leauge outside of maybe Philadelphia

  • http://bleacherreport.com/articles/408237-bryant-vs-jordan-theres-still-no-debate-jordan-is-king nbk

    I value the same things as you* my bad

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    I Co-sign Michael NZ. What kills my chance of fully joining in on this or most discussions is that I actually value my job. LOL just kidding y’all.

  • JTaylor21

    NBK, Rondo’s a very good defender but I think that you are giving him too much props on his defensive skills. The reasons why he’s allowed to gamble soo much without jeopardizing the team’s defense is due to boston’s great rotating defense, Doc Rivers defensive strategy and KG. I think that he’s more of an AI type defender who gambled and played the passing lane with the best of them but struggled to stay in front of defenders. Remember that the sixers with AI were a very good defensive team even with all the gambling he did and that was due to their defensive strategy and Mount Mutombo. When you have great help D behind you, it allows you to gamble a little more but that doesn’t mean the player is a great defender. The same thing is going on in MIA with DWade, since he has bron and a very good defensive unit behind him, he’s gambling a little more this year.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    If no one figured out what I meant, I was saying slam is more civil without crawford. This post is filled with people agreeing to disagree after stating their viewpoints. Crawford would have just insulted anyone who didnt agree with him. He liked to use the ‘im a writer, so you can question what I say’. Anyways, slam has been awesome recently, and I hope it continues.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Random observation
    You know what I find hilarious? When Carlos Arroyo is on a fast break with LeBron and Wade and he actually thinks he’s getting the ball.
    Son, that is never, ever, EVER happening.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Why then JTaylor does the guy Rondo’s guarding average the lowest PER of any position against Boston? You can’t be telling me pierce and Allen are better defenders then Rondo and AI never locked his opponents down like Rondo does, even when he played on the ec champion sixers in 01

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    CO-SIGN Tarzan

  • JTaylor21

    NBK, I think that it’s due to the fact that PGs have the ball in their hands the most and Bos defensive front-court. Rondo can gamble a little bit more than other PGs knowing that he has KG, Big Baby (who leads the nba in charges), Shaq, and KPerk when he comes back and when he doesn’t get a steal, opposing PGs have to contend with that frontline after getting past him.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    If i was starting a team that had some good scorers but needed a complimentary guard, I’d take Rondo.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    And then I would say how do you explain the gaping difference between rondo and jameer Nelson? He has more help then anyone. Brandon Jennings comes from a similar situation and his opponent PER doesn’t approach rondos

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Obviously, if I was just looking for a dynamic scorer from the 1, I’d plug Rose in.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    If I wanted to take a dude with still untapped potential? Id take Russell.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    I’d take John Wall over all of them if we could turn injuries off

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I would take Dwill. He’s better than all of them, no serious injuries, no weaknesses.
    And he drops 30 and 10 like it ain’t nothing.

  • http://www.stonesthrow.com Michael NZ

    My pick: Deron Williams.

    Any chance he leaves Utah once his contract is up? Know what? I hope not.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Today not knowing the rest of the roster I would cosign Allen, Williams is the best all around PG in the NBA. (Durability is part of it, a huge part when you consider CP who hasn’t looked very good the last two weeks health wise)

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    He actually hinted that he was considering leaving at the beginning of the season. Said he didn’t sign an extension because he wanted to make sure they can compete or something along those lines

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Agreed. I would take Williams if I didn’t know what the rest of the roster looked like.

  • http://www.stonesthrow.com Michael NZ

    I remember that. Comments may have been made before they stole Big Al though. Not to be underestimated: Sloans last year may coincide with Williams’ contract year.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Yeah I am not sure. And I don’t even know what a contender would look like considering the championship atmosphere in the league, Boston La and Mia are absolutely stacked, I don’t see how anyone else looks competitive during the summer.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Agree. Williams is the best and most complete PG in the L, and has been for the last 2+ years. Perfect combo of size, savy, skills, leadership, unselfishness, clutchness etc etc

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Well unless your considering joining one of the fringe teams, Orl,Chicago,OKC, Dallas

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    D Will has not been the L’s best PG for the last two years. Last year when CP3 missed 37 gmes then yes he was, the year before it was universally agreed that CP3 was the best 1 in the L. CP3 looked pretty healthy against OKC when he went 7-10 for 18, 7 and 5 steals. He also looked pretty healthy when he was 8-12 at PHI for 25. The only game he looked un healthy was the MIA game.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    Matter of fact, he didn’t look unhealthy, he just didn’t look hmself. Oh and Amar’e is going offright now.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Well either you haven’t been watching the games or don’t remember what a healthy chris paul looks like, because he does not look right and everyone is questioning whether he will ever get to 100% ever again. That knee is definitely on his mind though, you can tell when he dribbles off into the corner rather then attacking the basket, that is not a chris Paul thing to do, and I watched him do it repeatedly the other night

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Rondo is in the perfect situation for him. He fits right in there. …… Deron is simply the best. ……… Funny how no one wants nash

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    I have watched every Hornet game this year, and i vivdly remember the WC semi’ team from 3 years back. Chris Paul is not that player anymore, and he isn’t goin to be. However talking about this year, his health has been the same since opening night against MIL. I should of explained myself properley in my initial comment.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I thought CP3 and D-Will werent IN this conversation.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    Tarzan – The NBA season is so long that its all swings, when Nawlins started 8-0 everyone was saying that CP3 is back and is the bst PG in the L again. Bron even posted it on his Twitter. If Nawlins go on another extended win streak and CP3s numbers stay like they are now, everyone will be buzzing about him once again.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Oh that I won’t argue I only saw him play one or two games during their initial streak, I don’t see how he could be playing at the same level with his stats dipping and the team losing on the regular but I don’t know how much different he looks health wise for sure

  • JTaylor21

    If CP and DWill are not included in the choices, I would take Westbrook. Dude can do any and everything out there on the court. He’s a very good defender, he’s a very very good mid-range shooter, he can hit the 3 when needed, he’s probably the best rebounding PG since JKidd roamed the swampland, and he plays big in big games.

  • http://slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    His health hasn’t changed, the rest of the L has caught up to them. At one point Jason Smith was their first guy off the bench, then teams started running him off the elbow J and he’s been in and out of the rotation. CP3s percentages are staying great (he could finish the year 50,40,90), his scoring and assists are dropping as teams are packing it in, and team mates are not making shots (PHI game was good example of this).

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Fa sho man, well I hope he can get out of there and get healthy on a team that can put real pieces around him. David West Emeka Okafor and Trevor Ariza is putrid if you want to do anything more then make the playoffs. And their contracts got their hands tied as an organization

  • http://slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    Watching Hornets now, Hornets staff ‘estimate CP is at 80 – 85%, getting healthier as season goes on’.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Saw that too.

  • http://afjkl.com Jukai

    I always think it’s funny when looking at different people’s opinions on things that you’d really don’t think would be as much of a debate.
    Personally, I think Rondo is the best defensive point in the league. I don’t think he gets lit up that much, I think he causes a lot of problems. When Russ lit up the celtics, it was mostly on switches after pick-and-rolls where he goes his points. I don’t think Deron is in the top-5 defensive point guards in the league. Better than Delonte, Hinrich, Westbrook, Rondo, Chalmers?
    I’d also still take Chris Paul if I was looking for the best point guard in the L.

  • http://afjkl.com Jukai

    Tarzan: Are we talking about at their heights or right now? Nash is closing on 37, the fact that you’d even bring a 37-year-old up in a conversation about which point you’d take shows EXACTLY how amazing Nash is.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Hinrich for sure, totally forgot about him. Delonte would be but he is rarely healthy or consistently focused

  • http://afjkl.com Jukai

    NBK: Delonte’s bad health is sort of a new thing. His focus, however….

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Excluding Dwill and Chris Paul, I would take Rose.
    He already is a point guard, Westbrook is becoming one.

  • http://afjkl.com Jukai

    Co-sign allenp

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    I may be wrong but I think Delonte has been injured In Each of the last 4 seasons. But he may have played with a cast last year

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    One, it’s interesting that Mike D now depends on Amare after the way he kind of acted around Amare in Phoenix where Amare caught a lot of flak.
    Two, y’all underrate Dwil’s defense. That’s all I can say.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    22 and 13 for felton so far. And amare is beastly. i may get convinced that he’s better than Bosh. lol

  • http://slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    Make that 24 for Felton. He’s looking like he did in the Tar Heel days.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    “N*ggas talking ’bout they made Amare, well make another Amare.” Boston looking like contenders but the Knicks ain’t no punks.

  • http://slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    Marcus Thornton needs some more PT!

  • JTaylor21

    The celtics just showed why they are the ECF champs and the knicks showed why playing NO D costs you down the stretch. The celtics on one hand got everything they wanted on the offensive end down the stretch while the knicks struggled to get good looks. Still though the Knicks are going to be a problem in the playoffs and Amare is officially the best big man in the league at this very moment; damn 39/11 on a rejuvenated KG and another 30/10 for him, he’s been the MVP so far.

  • Pharoah

    HELLAVA GAME

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    That is 3 absolutely mesmerizing finishes in a row. I love leaguepass

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    Hey Adam, how’d you like the games tonight? Buzzer beaters galore.
    (C’mon Luc, he’s a lefty, don’t overplay his right hand on D)

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    The whole scene after THE TRUTH hit that shot over STAT was just bedlam.
    Nate tried to hump Pierce’s head,…. twice while the latter was in mid-stride, then proceeded to fall nearly headfirst to the floor.
    KG floored me with his gracious bow to the MSG-crowd, straight outta broadway ending.
    (and there was still .4 of a second on the clock. Ah, those cooky C’s)

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    How is that Many shot not a travel? That is not a hopstep. That is a travel.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    Allenp, true but then one could argue that Mbah a Moute fouled him there (watch his forearm push Manufo back) so refs swallowing their whistles on both counts was a nice compromise.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    That wasn’t a foul. Manu initiated the contact and pushed off first. But good call on him not playing manu left. That was like eric bledsoe re other day.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I like how all these teams are going on streaks.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Dirk’s pretty good

  • http://afjkl.com Jukai

    Really NBK? Ya think he could be something one day?

  • http://afjkl.com Jukai

    And Nash with 11-19, but you know, I’m sure no one cares, cause no one talks about Nash anymore.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    I was actually just about to say I hope to goodness Nash doesn’t get hurt, the suns are 100% dependent on him to be even decent.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    watch when manu picked up his dribble. that was not a travel. i thought it looked like one at first, i had to watch it a couple time. amare played great. knicks had that game, but they gave up way too many easy layups, took too many turrible shots, and gallo missing all 3 free throws was huge. and dirk is crazy in the clutch. lamarcus had a huge 4th too.

  • Daniel Aus

    Patty Mills with a +7 boy needs some PT!

Advertisement