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Tuesday, December 7th, 2010 at 8:50 am  |  296 responses

Post Up: Playing With Fire

A few Eastern Conference teams are red hot.

by Adam Figman | @afigman

Atlanta 80, Orlando 74

Dwight Howard might be the wheels, rims, leather seats, carburetor, alternator, paint job, and some other car parts I’m forgetting, but—from the looks of it—Jameer Nelson is the engine that drives the Magic forward. Without him, they were lost last night, as the Hawks pushed ahead in the fourth quarter and took it home. Both teams shot terribly (Atlanta: 38.8 percent; Orlando: 37.8 percent), though the one percent difference was huge. (Yeah, probably not.) Josh Smith led the Hawks with 19 points (plus 13 boards), while Al Horford added 16. Dwight also had a decent 14 and 13 in his return to the court, but it wasn’t enough. Oh, and if you don’t think SVG’s guys were missing Nelson, check the box score—the entire team combined for 9 assists, and backup-made-starting point guard Chris Duhon had a meager 2.

Now let’s discuss some slightly warmer (read: fiery hot) East Coast squads.

New York 121, Minnesota 114

I had a feeling the Knicks were getting thrown under the bus a little too soon early on, but I didn’t see a revitalization quite like this coming. Admit it: Neither did you. Amar’e Stoudemire’s (34 points, 5 boards) offensive onslaught continued, and though he was out-rebounded by Kevin Love (33 points, 15 rebounds), it was New York that jumped ahead with a strong third quarter and then hung on to get the W. The last time these two met, Love beasted with that 31-31 performance, so I guess D’Antoni’s crew will gladly settle for 33 and 15. Other noteworthy Knicks: Raymond Felton scored 18 and dished 11; Danilo Gallinari put in 17, and drained a clutch three that helped seal things up in the final minutes; and rookie Landry Fields scored only 2 but led the team on the glass with 10 boards. Michael Beasley scored 25 for the TWolves, who shot 53.2 percent and started off the contest with a ridiculous hot streak, hitting everything in sight and jumping out to an early lead—but it was eventually squandered quickly in the second half. NYK has now won 10 of 11 (five straight), and will try to extend that streak in Toronto on Wednesday.

Miami 88, Milwaukee 78

Using the Knicks’ take-advantage-of-the-schedule-while-you-can strategy, the Heat have begun surging as well, winning five in a row in convincing fashion. The latest victim was Milwaukee, who shot only 34.6 percent and didn’t stand much of a chance. Dwyane Wade led the charge this time, dropping 25 points (plus 14 boards and 5 dimes) in the effort. LeBron James went for 17, 7 and 6, and Chris Bosh put up a mild 16 and 12 night. The Heat had a strong fourth piece though, with an efficient 18-point, 6-for-6 shooting performance from Carlos Arroyo. When the role players successfully complete their, um, roles, Miami is damn near untouchable. The Heat should have a tougher test on Wednesday, when they travel to Utah to play Deron Williams and friends.

Indiana 124, Toronto 100

While the media puts the two winners above front and center, nobody will be paying attention to the Pacers, who—though they’ve dropped a few the past week or so—have developed into a strong team with reborn playoff hopes. They handled the Raps easily last night, grabbing a 13-point lead after a quarter and only building on it from there. A well-balanced effort led the way, as all five Indiana starters plus Brandon Rush (26 points) scored in double figures. Shoot 55.3 percent (47-85) from the field and 50 percent (13-26) from three and you’ll be in good position to win against anybody in this League. The Pacers will now travel to Milwaukee to face the struggling Bucks tomorrow night.

Chicago 99, Oklahoma City 90

In one that I’m sure will rile up this site’s commenters, the Bulls turned a small lead into a big lead in the third quarter and the Thunder simply couldn’t get back into it. The world wanted a Russell Westbrook vs. Derrick Rose showdown, but there was none to be had; Chicago was led by Carlos Boozer (29 points, 12 rebounds), while Kevin Durant (29 points, 14-14 from the line) took the forefront for Oklahoma City. In the point guard sector, DRose shot only 3 for 13 en route to 11 points (he added 9 assists), and Westbrook scored 15 points (with 7 dimes and 3 steals) in the loss. Quality defense, huh? I won’t get involved in the “who’s the best (or second best, or third best) pg in the League” debate, if only because something tells me you guys will take care of that one. Which I appreciate! I’ll be reading and will chime in on occasion. The Bulls are now 11-8, staying ahead of the Pacers—by just a game—for the time being.

Utah 94, Memphis 85

Led by Deron (27 points, 8 dimes), the Jazz easily took care of the Grizz, who have now dropped four straight. CJ Miles added 20 off the bench (Sidebar: Who’s the Sixth Man of the Year so far? Anyone else think CJ is in the running?), while big man Al Jefferson went for 12 and 10. Remember that Paul Millsap hype? It died down fast, and his slump continued as he scored 7 on 3-11 from the floor. Zach Randolph (17 points, 14 boards) was a bright spot for the Grizz, who could really use a Knicks-like schedule (no shots!) to get back on track. Coming off the losses to Denver and Utah, they’ve now fallen to 8-14, and are in Phoenix for what should be another tough one Wednesday (#WesternConferenceProblems).

L.A. Clippers 98, Sacramento 91

The Clippers dominated the middle two quarters, and held off a late Sacramento run to hang on for the victory. The win is just their fifth, and came behind a great night from Eric Gordon, who scored 29 and distributed 5 dimes. Blake Griffin had a mild 13 and 11, while Kings swingman Omri Casspi went off, leading his crew with 21 points and 10 boards in 34 minutes. Sacto will move on to host Washington Wednesday, while the Clips have an All-L.A. Everything battle against the Lake Show scheduled for tomorrow night.

Performance of the Night: Call me crazy, but I thought the Bulls’ victory was the most impressive, so I’m giving this to Boozer. Chicago’s newest big man had 29 points, 12 rebounds, 1 assist and 1 steal.
Moment of the Night:
It wasn’t exactly Griffin over Mozgov, but LBJ’s coast-to-coast in Milwaukee seems to represent the current state of the Miami Heat. Can’t stop, won’t…

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  • http://www.twitter.com/chris_griff_3 Chris_Griff_3

    Milwaukee’s been a huge disappointment. They remain Portland-East as I called it in summer, though for all the wrong reasons. I’m not taking Miami or New York seriously until they beat good teams. Only team in the East that matters right now is Boston.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Sucks that nothing came out of the Westbrook/Rose matchup…..two slackers if you ask me.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    And Adam….to be accurate….the Heat have won 5 in a row.

  • http://www.twitter.com/chris_griff_3 Chris_Griff_3

    LOL @ Eboy’s Thunder/Bulls analysis.

  • RobbieJay

    Thank you Boozer for playing like you should now dont go and break something else!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    moment of the night? LeBron had a better dunk than that one like 10 seconds later, and what about Drose’s 40ft buzzer beater to end the 3rd quarter? People who didn’t watch OKC-Bulls, don’t look at the box score and think you know what’s up, because Rose wasn’t looking for his own shot at all, he was controlling the whole game and it’s AMAZING he only has 9 assist, because he was setting the table for everyone. On every basketball site I look I see: ‘Derrick Rose had an off night’, please just STFU. His scoring wasn’t good but Boozer, Korver and Deng provided plenty. Drose was incredibly unselfishess and that’s how they won the game. He does whatever is necessary to get the W.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Jahmai…..for weeks guys have been running their mouths in Westbrook’s corner and Rose’s corner….for a face up matchup, they both dissapointed. Good for the Bulls getting a win, no doubt….but fans of the players wanted to see more than pedestrian stat lines from these TWO particular guys.

  • Miss Johnson

    Thank you Jahmai. You read my mind. Rose was a distributor last night. There will be PLENTY of times when he puts on a scoring show. It was just Boozer’s night.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    @Eboy, I undertand what you mean, ofcourse I would’ve liked for a greater ‘statistical’ and more highlight-reel impact by Rose and Westbrook, but they did have a jumpball. Rose won. sooo…. :P

  • Pharoah

    Yeah pretty disappointed in the Rose vs Russel match up last night but Bulls still won so w.e. Side note – who will probably start all star game? d-rose or rondooooo

  • Mvp23100

    In 3-5 years Wall will be better than Westbrook and Rose the heat are finally coming along this team is capable of a 10 game streak and for those who say they haven’t beat anyone which is a lie tune in tommorow

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    Pharoah: I’m voting D-Rose. But it’s hard to say one deserves it over the other.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    And while the starters are probably going to change from my prediction (Dirk looks like he deserves to start over Gasol, Amare over Garnett) I think my NBA All-Star predictions are still looking good.

  • http://www.diimemag.com Royal

    Im going to have make a prayer for Pau’s soul on thursday when he plays against Blake

  • http://www.diimemag.com Royal

    Wed. rather…

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    It’s true Rose really wasn’t looking to score the way he usually does. It’s also true he could’ve easily had 15-plus dimes if guys hit more shots, but it’s also true he was struggling with his shot. I think once Boozer got rolling, Rose was content with letting him carry the scoring load because, let’s face it, dude has been dreaming about that kind of help all season. Westbrook did a good job defensively. I know everyone wanted a great matchup between these two, but these two just wanted the W for their teams. What the hell was up with Durante and Green sitting almost the entire 3rd quarter though?

  • Washtub

    I love me some Kevin Love, that guy is putting up Karl Malone scoring numbers to go with his Dennis Rodman rebounding.
    Sure he plays for Minnesota, but still. I like

  • http://bugmarley.com LeoneL

    Washtub, don’t forget the eight straight three-pointers. Five for five against the Cavs and hitting the first his first three attempts from long-range against NY. Power forward grabbing 15+ boards a night and scoring at will from beyond the arc. I knew SLAM told us not to sleep on Love but this guy just keeps on impressing.

    Also, Darko was perfect from the field against NY…in eight minutes (I think). Hope the injury’s not serious.

  • T-Money

    E: What do you think will happen when Mike Miller returns? At this point, it would be really tough to take Arroyo or James Jones out of the rotation. Chalmers is just too damn inconsistent. Miller as a back up 1 à la Ron Harper? He’s got the skillset for it… And long-term, how does Haslem fit back in? I don’t want to see Bosh at the 5 ever again.

  • T-Money

    Don’t look now, but Darko has been playing like a professional basketball player for the last 2 weeks.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    T…..I think, after a bit of time back in the rotation, Miller will get plenty of minutes split at the 2 and 3. I think the rotation patterns will change again too. At the moment, House isn’t seeing any time, and I think that will change too….he’s too good of a shooter to be seated and not spread the floor with those guys passing off to him. As far as Haslem is concerned…..he immediately gets the minutes that Howard is getting (and Juwan gets to break out his suit game) and a few minutes a center that Dampier/Z/Anthony are currently sharing. It will depend on the matchup. Last night, although the centers provided no offense, Spo used them particularly well to limit Bogut to basically nothing from him either. Damp got his longest consistent burn yesterday and that was predicated on Bogut being a banger instead of a guy like Horford who stayed on the perimeter the other night and got off but afforded more minutes to Joel who is a more mobile guy.

  • MikeC.

    Let’s go NY! Maybe the league can sneak some matchups against some high school teams onto the schedule to keep the streak alive.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    I think the rotation situation is pretty easy to fix. Replace James Jones minutes with Mike Miller minutes. Replace Juwaon Howard minutes with Udonis Haslem minutes. Maybe cut a bit of Wade/Lebron’s minutes to make room for Miller (but only one or two minutes) and some of Bosh’s minutes to make room for Haslem (but only two or three).
    Why do ANYTHING different?
    Actually, that’s perfect— Howard has been getting around 17 minutes a game, Jones around 20…So having Haslem play 17-20 minutes and Miller play 20-25 would be perfect. Contouring in any other way would be a bad idea.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    Also, at this point in time, there is really no reason for House to play. Both Arroyo and Chalmers are hitting their spot-up shots, both bring better ball movement and Chalmers is a better defender– yeah House hypotheticall is the best shooter, but he hasn’t proved it this year, and with Arroyo/Chalmers hitting them open shots, he simply has no real roster spot. Maybe in the playoffs, to hit some big shots (as a fisher type).

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Jukai….there’s no way James Jones is not going to play a good amount of minutes (at least for the first few weeks and they see if Miller is actually unaffected by the injury)he’s really played well and his shooting has been all they’ve hoped for since he came to Miami. It took way longer than expected but….

  • http://slamonline.com nate

    Derrick Rose for the starting PG in all-star game don’t let that ugly ass turtle rondo get it vote for D.rose

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    Eboy: By all means, I don’t think Erik should cut Jones’ minutes completely and give it all to Miller the first game back. Obviously the minutes are going to be split 50/50 at first.
    But at the end of the day, I think all those minutes need to be given to Miller. Miller is simply better. He brings more. He brings more defense, he brings better ball movement, and by god, he’ll hit those same ridiculously easy open shots that James Jones is hitting.
    Splitting their minutes would be dumb because neither could get in rhythm. You don’t want to cut into Wade/Lebron’s minutes. It’s tough, but one of them needs to go.
    Right now there is a rotation of Arroyo, Chalmers, Wade, Jones, Lebron, Bosh, Haslem, Big Z, Dampier/Anthony (one gets majority of minutes depending on defensive matchup). That’s a nine man rotation. Successful teams really don’t run ten-man rotations. Wade/Lebron/Bosh all need to get 35+ minutes a game to be a contender.
    So at the end of the day, it’s either going to be Miller or Jones. Who knows, maybe Jones will prove just to be more valuable at the moment and keep his role. But splitting them would negatively effect the team.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Unless one plays with the first team and one with the second team. I know they bandied about the notion of playing Miller with the starters. Not sure if they would, but it’s definitely been discussed.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    test

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    EBoy: So, do Lebron or Wade slide to the one? I don’t expect to see Bosh playing five for more than, oh, 2-5 minutes a game, considering how much he sucked when he was put in that position compared to how good he is now playing at the four full time.
    Look, I got love for James Jones, he’s Phoenix alum. But I watched him a lot. He goes hot and cold randomly and without reason. It’s already happened— started hot, when abysmally cold, now he’s ridiculous again. But he’ll be cold again. That’s why The Heat need Miller to bring in the consistancy.
    They’ve found a working rhythm. They’re just going to mess it up trying to impliment Miller and Jones together.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    @Nate, ‘rondo = ugly ass turtle’ lol, that green goblin looking rondo ain’t getting my vote, Drose is starting! but I’m not hating on Rondo, he’s playing great basketball, with a serious chance at breaking Stockton’s record of 14+ assists for a whole season.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    Who are you guys voting for as Center on the western team for the All Star Game? Pretty crappy choices.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I’ll side with you on this issue Jukai…..and i know Wade and Bron don’t want to be exclusive point guard/forwards but that opening lineup would be unguardable.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Mike Miller can and will take minutes from Arroyo, and Chalmers. They will also use him in a lineup that has LeBron at PF. Miller is also an above average defender at 2 positions.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Mike Miller has the skillset to play PG?! Since when?! LMFAO!! And no disrespect, but Miami’s 5-game winning streak is less than impressive. WAS, DET, CLE, ATL (sans Joe Johnson), and now MIL? They’re beating up in the Little Sisters of the Poor in the NBA. Come on, son.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    He can run the “1″ in Miami’s offense, which is actually pass and run to the corner, or pass and create a shooting angle from a superstar double team. Defensively LeBron can guard PG’s, that’s not wher his issue wit the position lies (according to reports)

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    Out of every single possibility that exists, the last one I want to see is Mike Miller starting at the one spot. Sorry NBK. Lebron guarding the one was partially the reason why Cleveland lost to Orlando two years ago.

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    Raymond Felton just continues to work hard, and grow his game as the floor general in D’Antoni’s offense a la a Steve Nash. It’s FUN to watch! Go Knicks baby!

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    Plus Arroyo wont play if he doesn’t start. He’s said that a LOT. IF Lebron/Wade take his spot, I bet Arroyo would deal. If Miller takes his spot? Oh god no, that ain’t happening.

  • T-Money

    Wade would be the point guard in this line up(you are who you defend) but Mike Miller would bring the ball up. I hope Spo resists the urge to play UD 30+ minutes like he was doing at the beginning of the year. Yes, Haslem is really good but Bosh’s game suffers when he spends too much time at the 5 and that’s just not worth it. 20 minutes max for Haslem. If it were not for the emotional ties, Miami should actually look to package Haslem this summer with a few other pieces for a legit 5. You really don’t need much more than someone whop can come in and give you 8-10 mins a game to back up Bosh.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Mike Miller CAN NOT run the point in Miami’s or any other offense. Making that claim is basically saying that anybody can be a PG as it’s nothing more than bringing the ball up and then passing it off. I’m not hating, but being a PG is a little bit more complicated than that.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Can the Bulls lose another two game in a row so Bron is missing from here for another 4 days?

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Besides, that would make Mike Miller just a taller version of Arroyo and Chalmers because that’s all they do right now.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    @Jahmai: I’m voting Gasol, only since he’s the best statistical center in there, plus Memphis needs some represensation… but let’s be honest, Yao is getting voted in.
    I don’t get it though. Amare played the four spot for Phoenix but was put in at the center spot every year. Yet, Gasol is actually PLAYING the five for the Lakers right now but they can’t put him as the five because Bynum needs to be there? Really? That’s just dumb.

  • http://slamonline.com nate

    @Jahmai lol yea rondo is playing great but I just want d.rose to make it. Im really getting tired of the anaylst not admitting that he is one of the top 3 pg in the league everytime they talk they say he is in the conversation wite the top 5 which is not true he is legitmately in the top 3 guards in the league

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Jukai Turkoglu is (as the primary ball handler) who beat Cleveland two years ago. And Dwight and 3pt shooting are the ultimate reason they lost that series. And when did I say Miller would start, I said he would take minutes away from. At the end of games, if you don’t think Miami’s lineup will consist of Miller, LeBron, and Wade as the (interchangeable) 1, 2, 3,then tell me what’s a better option…? (and on a related note, why does everyone think a traditional rotation/lineup is going to be the key to miami winning? IMO its quite the opposite)

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    T-Money: I actually wrote something about that but my connection died and it never got through. Haslem needs to play 20 or less, the EXACT same amount of time Howard is playing. Bosh needs to dominate the four and he needs to stay at the four. I really see that being the downfall of the team, cause for some reason, this Heat team just refuses to play Haslem like a role player.
    But dude, I mean, Miller would NOT bring up the ball. Why would Miller bring up the ball? His handles aren’t that great. They’re mediocre. I don’t get that statement at all.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    what does this even mean? are you contradicting yourself?
    Bryan Crawford Posted: Dec.7 at 12:31 pm
    Mike Miller CAN NOT run the point in Miami’s or any other offense. Making that claim is basically saying that anybody can be a PG as it’s nothing more than bringing the ball up and then passing it off. I’m not hating, but being a PG is a little bit more complicated than that.

    Bryan Crawford Posted: Dec.7 at 12:33 pm
    Besides, that would make Mike Miller just a taller version of Arroyo and Chalmers because that’s all they do right now.

  • T-Money

    I’m okay with Arroyo starting the rest of the way and Chalmers backing him up. Mike Miller played back-up PG in Minny and Washington. He’s wayyyy more than a shooter. / Jukai: LeBron guarding the 1 was only a problem because Shard and Turk were killing em. Skip and Anthony Johnson (Jameer didn’t play) were not killing the Cavs. / Who they’re beating (or losing to) is irrelevant at this point. What’s important is the record for HCA and the way they’re playing. We’ve seen much better ball movement since the Dallas game. Wade and Bron don’t bring it up as much. There’s always a point guard on the floor. They’re running actual plays. Bron is catching it in the mid post area. Wade is coming off screens and curls. Bosh has found his niche and knows where his shots are in the halfcourt. We know who will stand in their way in May and June: BOS, ORL, LAL. There’s nothing to prove before the playoffs.

  • T-Money

    BC: As a Bulls fan, you of all people, should know that you don’t need a classic point guad when you have two playmakers on the wings (i.e., Ron Harper)

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    Hidden in among Durants 14-14 from the line is his routine 7-18 from the field that he throws up every 2 out of 3 games.

  • http://slamonline.com nate

    For the Miami heat too be one of the most hated team and get booed at every arena and people say there getting tired of hearing bout them in the media you guys sure do talk about them and there issues a lot lol

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    T, I’m not sure if you do it with malice in mind, but no including the Bulls in your little grouping of elite teams is going to leave yourself open to unbridled hate. LMAO!

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    And why are you all acting like bringing the ball up is running across a rinkity bridge to a castle with a dragon trying to kill you? its dribbling the ball 40 feet, and passing it off to LeBron, Wade, or Bosh. Arroyo and Chalmers have been doing it all season, and believe it or not, Miller is a better playmaker then both of them. (and regarding “handles,” miller is 6’8, you can dribble up the court like Mark Jackson against any PG in the league, even though nobody full court presses so this concern is completely bogus)

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    It’s not a contradiction and it should be VERY easy to understand. Everyone has agreed that Miami needs a real PG and has roasted Arroyo and Chalmers (who are really scorers playing the point) for being crappy at the “1.” So now things are going to be better by putting Mike Miller there who has less natural guard skills than those two? What part of that is contradictory or even difficult to comprehend?

  • http://twitter.com/BeezKneezy LA Huey

    I like James Jones. His release is quick and not shy at all about pulling the trigger. Jukai, I’m sad to hear he’s a streak shooter.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    oh and T-Money’s point about Ron Harper proves what I’m saying exactly.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    T-Money: We remember things different. Skip was hitting big shots and cause Lebron to way over exert himself coming off screens and chasing him around (which Van Gundy designed on purpose). I mean, Lebron CAN probably guard points, yes, but do we really want Lebron running around over exerting himself to catch up with smaller guards? Especially when Lebron’s probably THE best man-to-man defender on that team, and you’re negating that by putting him on a smaller defender?
    And I once again will state, Miller cannot play the point. Just because he can pass, doesn’t mean he can play the point. He doesn’t have the ball handling to bring it up the court consistantly before teams start running full-court presses. And I don’t know about Minny, but Miller didn’t really run any backup point duties for Washington. C’mon now.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/ Diesel

    Mike Miller is a spot up shooter that can’t create his own shot. Would you really want the ball in his hands? He’d be much more effective running off screens and receiving the ball from someone else. He should be receiving the passes, not delivering them. And there’s no hate in this comment. I don’t think Miller should handle the ball the same way I don’t think Korver should handle it.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Yes, Ron Harper converted to the point in Chicago. But as a SG all of his career, he already had the guard skills — ball handling, passing, decision makikng — to make the transition. Mike Miller is a SF who is more used to coming off screens or catching and shooting. If the passing lanes to Bron and Wade get cut off — as they will — do you really think Mike Miller has the skills to break his man down and make something happen on his own? No.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    The Ron Harper point is not good at all. Ron Harper was a combo guard who had the handles to play the one. Mike Miller is a FULL TIME small forward who can slide down to the two, albeit not as effectively.
    That’s why Ron Harper was the point guard and Pippen was the small forward, even though Pippen ran the plays.
    Nobody full court presses because NO TEAMS USE GUYS LIKE MIKE MILLER TO BRING UP THE BALL!!
    Sorry for caps. That had to be said though.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    T-Money – Do you think the Heat will have home court over BOS, ORL or LAL come play-off time? Personally I feel of those 3 teams they may be able to have a better record than LAL (mainly because the East is a lot weaker), but they will still have to go into Boston and Orlando (in some order) just to get to the Finals.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    Man, cosign Crawford’s 12:44 pm.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    I know that a lot of you guys want Miami to do well and see them succeed and that’s fine. But now you guys are acting like Miami is the place where guys are all of a sudden going to excel in areas that are huge weaknesses and display skills that they haven’t shown in their whole careers. It’s kind of ridiculous actually.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I, for one, never envisioned Mike Taurasi playing point for the Heat, but I also find it funny that dudes think he’s not basketball smart enough to facilitate the offense if called upon. He ain’t going to be Deron or CP3 but c’mon, dude is a very solid offensive weapon.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Jukai, Miller has been running some PG duties on every single team he has played on throughout his career. Not a heavy amount of minutes, but it has always been an aspect of his game. Unbelievable that you guys think Miami needs a real PG, seriously, what in the world makes anyone think a real PG is what this team needs. A true PG, needs the ball in their hands to do their job, which means your taking the ball out of wades and lebrons hands, immediately a red flag should pop up in your heads that says, “that can’t be right.” plus IDK where I read this, but Rajon Rondo and a few other PG’s have said Kobe Bryant and LeBron James are the hardest guys to go against as a PG because they can guard them from 8 feet away and are still just as quick as most PG’s in the league. Ron Harper ran the point for a 72 win team, and he was 36 years old and played SG his entire career. normally you guys don’t think things can be done because they haven’t in the past, well this actually has.

  • T-Money

    Jukai: At the very least, Mike Miller dribbles as well as Chalmers (which is not saying much). I’ve actually seen him bring it up for Washington last year and he was the official back-up PG in Minnesota for a stretch. Mike Miller can absolutely bring the ball up. Can he set up the offense, find guys and rack up dimes? Hell no. But no one will ask him to do so. Also, D-Wade and Bron always bring it up when they get the defensive rebound so, really, this is not a concern. Spo just don’t want them to come back to the ball. In short, co-sign NBK. / E: No malice at all. CHI is closer to ATL in the East than MIA, ORL, BOS. The defense has been really poor under Thibs and that was with Gibson starting instead of Booz. They’re giving up 100 a game with a differential of 0.9!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    And if he’s really just passing the ball to Wade, Bron or Bosh in their favorite spots, he’s got a pretty simple job.

  • Jagster

    Why do you guys keep saying “Rose wasn’t looking for his shot”?

    Albeit, he’s had games where he’s shot the ball 35 times; but Rose just shot poorly.

    The man was 3-13. If he was 7-13, Rose would of had a more respectable 19 points, instead of 11.

    So let’s not say he was controlling the offense etc. That’s just trying to mask the fact that Rose shot poorly. AT least Rose realized that and tried to get others involved. I did think it was tacky though, when he took the last shot of the game when OKC had already backed off of him.

    Lastly. Rose shouldn’t be scoring 35 and taking 35 shots if Boozer’s there. The bottom line is Chi won last night. That’s what counts!!

  • http://twitter.com/BeezKneezy LA Huey

    I think the difference in the Miller-Harper comparison is that Harper had a true point forward flanking him. LeBron is a great play-maker but I feel he’s still not on Pip’s level setting the offense. I’m not soley blaming him but ball has a habit of sticking when he gets the rock on the perimeter.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Anybody with halfway decent ball-handling skills can bring the ball up in the NBA, but does that mean that they’re capable of playing the point full-time? Like I said, playing the point is more than just bringing the ball up and making a pass. It’s kind of disrespectful to the position to say that.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Point guard play, offensively, isn’t an issue for the Heat. As long as Arroyo and Chalmer (and House) can knock down open shots, they’ll be fine. They don’t need a Kenny Anderson (my man from way back, I know there are better examples) type of creator. Defensively, against elite point guards, that’s where their issue lies. Although, if you use your brain instead of some for of idiocy you may have, EVERY OTHER TEAM that doesn’t have an elite point guard has the same problem trying to contain the top 6 or 7 point guards in the league.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    So by that logic every SG in the league would make a better PG then every single SF. why does the position a player is labeled at dictate their skill? it doesn’t but why do you all think it does? Mike Miller spends more time in the Gym then every player in the league. If you don’t think he has the ability to dribble up the court and initiate an offense that has no real PG responsibilities outside of the defensive end then you haven’t watched the Heat play. and once again, we all know Miami will close games out with Miller, Wade and LeBron on the court together, which as everyone who has played basketball in their life knows, is the time when you play your best, most trustworthy lineup

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    All the contenders this season (if their teams are whole and playing up to expectations) give huge matchup problems to anyone that plays them. That’s real.

  • http://twitter.com/BeezKneezy LA Huey

    @nbk, though I love the dragon analogy, I think bringing the ball up in this league is more than that. If a guy isn’t comfortable challenging full court pressure from a single defender, you don’t want to give him the ball handling duties in this league. Back in Cleveland, Boobie Gibson would kill about 6 seconds off the shot clock everytime he brought the rock up the court.

  • Jagster

    Wow! Never thought I would see so much people talk about Miami after beating a team like Milwaukee. I guess you can call SLAM a Miami heat site? Lol.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    @NBK: Playing ‘point guard duties’ and actually playing point are different things. Miller plays point-forward. That generally involves way less movement, less creating and more finding (I say generally cause, honestly, I don’t know the exact basketball definition of point-forward. Just what I’ve seen from people who have had that title). For Miller to play point, he’d have to adjust to smaller defenders poking at his dribble, it would force Miller to try and use his strength/size to his advantage which he’s NOT good at. It would lessen his abilities to get open for a shot because he’s going against a FASTER defender who will keep up with him on screens. He will draw smaller bodies away when he’s camped on the three. He will see far more full-court presses (I guarentee that). He wont be able to dribble away from his defender to pull of quick shots like Arroyo/Chalmers have. Worse, defense is going to be HAPHAZARD on the fast break because of all the defensive switches (ie if there’s a fast break and the opposing team’s point starts running, Miller has to go after him, cause it’s too late to switch). There is so much bad coming from moving Miller at the point, it’s just downright dumb.
    And Ron Harper played a LOT of point in his career before going to the Bulls. Were you old enough to watch him, NBK?
    @T-Money: Chalmers is a MUCH better dribble than Miller. That’s just false, dude. Very false.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/ Diesel

    Guys, its not about whether or not Miller can play point, its about if he SHOULD play point. I’m sure he can dribble, but the Heat signed him to be a 3 point threat. You’re lessening his effectiveness if you make him bring the ball up. Plain and simple. Let someone else play point and just have Miller stand at the three point line to open up the lane.

  • http://www.slamonline.com ShadiestBen

    nbk – How could you possibly know that Mike Miller spends more time in the gym than any player in the league?

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    who in the world said Miller would take over all of Arroyo and Chalmers minutes, or even half the PG responsibilites? I said some, and I didn’t say he would turn into Chris Paul, I said he would take minutes away from Arroyo, Chalmers, and Jones and as a PG would only initiate the offense. Which is what LeBron’s gripe with the position stems from, he doesn’t want to initiate and close the majority of offensive sets. Defensively they will never be able to guard PG’s, Chalmers is the best defensive option they have, but he can’t shoot like miller, he’s smaller so mismatches (which is what the iso-nba relies on) won’t be as easy to come by. Seriously for as much griping as ya’ll are doing answer this question, who do other teams PG’s guard if Miller is in at the 1, Miller is 6’8.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    No one was impressed about the win, Jagster. it just a conversation about the team since they’ve played 20X times better than they were a week or two ago and we’re discussing their potential. There were the same negative slanted conversations going on at the same time they were playing like sh*t too.

  • T-Money

    Jukai: We remember the ORL-CLE series VERY differently. If Skip was one of the reasons CLE lost, it was a DISTANT fourth behind Dwight abusing Z and Andy, Shard shooting and Turk penetrating the defense. My point was not that Bron should defend PGs, I think Wade should do it when they go for a big line up. He held his own vs CP3 and Deron. / We’ll have to agree to disagree on Mike Miller. I’ve watched Wizards games last year when he brought the ball up. I’ve watched Minnesota games when he brought the ball. We’re not talking about making him a full-time pg at all. He won’t start. But I expect him to play 10 minutes a game with Bron and Wade. And in those 10 minutes, he will bring the ball up some. He even did it THIS preseason.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    And the Heat wont close out every game with Miller. That will purely be situational. Wade/Lebron/Bosh will always be in, and what they use will depend on what they need.
    NBK, you seem to be a huge fan of Miller. I’m not knocking the dude. He’s incredibly talented and I think he will help Miami a LOT, specifically against better teams because of his superior ball movement. But this notion that he should be treated like anything more than a role player is scary. It’s the same logic that will hurt the Heat if they treat Haslem the same way and move Bosh to the five.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    ShadiestBen they had a player-poll, I think it was SI, which player spends the most time in the Gym outside of team acitivities or something like that. And they also asked Wade, LeBron, and Bosh which Heat player is the biggest “gym rat” and they all said Mike Miller immediately, one of them also said “its not even close”

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    Oh god, NBK, do you think Miller is going to be involved in ANY isos? Why would that make sense, for crying out loud.
    @T-Money: I don’t expect him to play 10 minutes with Lebron and Wade. I expect him to play 10 minutes with Lebron, and ten minutes with Wade. It wont be at the same time unless it’s a very tight game and they need a three point shooter.
    Diesel makes a great point I didn’t mention earlier: Miller was brought in for his three point shooting. If he brings up the ball and initiates offense, it takes away from one of those shooters spreading the floor for Lebron/Wade.
    Arroyo has somehow found a way to make it work (he brings it up quickly, looks for a quick route to attack and passes it up. Miller doesn’t have the speed to do that).

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    nbk, the only thing you’re thinking of is Miller’s height and that is supremely flawed basketball logic. Length is really only important in the paint and it means absolutely nothing at the point if the player doesn’t have the necessary skills to EFFECTIVELY play the position. Like I said, anybody with decent ball-handling skills can bring the ball up, but if I’m a coach in the East with a guard who has quick feet and can apply ball pressure on a guy like Mike Miller who you say should bring the ball up, then I’m PRAYING that the Heat make a move like that because now you’re talking about many, many turnovers and tons of broken plays that will keep the Heat out of their offensive sets. This ain’t a video game, sir. This is real basketball.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    what in the world Jukai, where did I say he should be treated as more then a role player? IMO they should treat him as swiss army knife of sorts, play him where he is needed when it gives the Heat an advantage.

  • Jagster

    Not to get in yall conversation; but Miami still has a problem with the point guard position.

    Lebron is not a point guard (nor wants to play or be labeled it). He’s too big, not quick enough and lacks the subtleties and commitment of the position.

    If you don’t know what I mean? Just watch Steve Nash, Rondo or Chris Paul to know what I mean.

    Magic Johnson could play the point, not only cause he was a much better point guard than Lebron, but he also had Kareem Abdul Jabbar. What Magic lacked in Quickness in the half court set, was made up by Jabbar. Cause Magic could dump the ball into Jabbar or run a high post offense, cause Jabbar was a great passer.

    Miami doesn’t have a player like Jabbar or Jordan on the high or low post (one of the reasons why Phil Jackson’s triangle works well with out a elite point guard).

    Keep in mind. Magic always guarded the bigger off guards and the off guard guarded the point for Magic. Wade doesn’t want to do that either.

    Now, Wade could play it; but you would miss his scoring. That’s why he was moved to 2 guard in the first place.

    Miller couldn’t play it either It I think (too slow and big).

    It think what some of you guys are saying is, Lebron and Miller could play Point Forward, which is a whole different thing, which Scottie Pippen and Rodney Mcray (Houston Rockets) played with effectiveness.

    Make a long story short; they still have a point guard problem! Lol.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    And nbk, I’m sure Mike Miller spends most of his time in the gym doing what he does best which is shooting and not dribbling the ball around cones so he can pretend to be a PG. Come on, son. Stop reaching.

  • T-Money

    Jukai: I STRONGLY disagree with you on Chalmers being a better dribbler than Miller. Rio has always been a subpar dribbler for a 1. You’re overanalyzing this, Marquis Daniels is already doing it for Boston. Your argument about getting his shot off coming off screens doesn’t hold. Think he’ll have a problem catching and shooting off a curl with Derek Fisher, Nelson or Rondo trailing? I’m 6’7 and there was nothing easier for me than catching and shooting over a small defender. But most importantly, you’re getting caught up in what you think a 1 should be. Bron, Wade and Miller will be on the perimeter together in crunch time. That’s a fact as Spo has already admitted that. They can all initiate the offense at that point but on dead balls it’ll be Miller.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I have to back T-Money on something….the Heat were using Miller to bring the ball up in the preseason before he got injured. He did fine in the minutes he was handling. I think it may have been more of a relief option to keep Wade and or Bron fresh from possession to possession but he DID handle traditional point guard duties for a minute. He wasn’t John Stockton either.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Jukai stop assuming. Never once said Iso’s, I said who does the PG guard? And BC my point about Miller’s height is that a PG on another team (you know the 29 other teams in the league that actually do rely on a small player to initiate their offense) would have to guard on of LeBron Wade or Miller. FE, say they play the Lakers, are you going to feel comfortable with Derek Fisher and Steve Blake as the guy getting a hand in Miller’s face? Or would you feel better with them iso’d against Wade? because me personally, I wouldn’t want either situation for my team.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    You know how I think Miami should treat him? As a SF with a side of shooting guard.
    When I said role player, I meant a minor player, who is playing beneath his abilities. The same way they need to play Haslem.
    This is why the Celtics and Lakers are doing so well: they have players who could have far larger roles elsewhere taking their skills and dulling them down QUITE a bit. Yes, Miller could play some point guard duties. No, in this team, he should stay far away from that.
    If Arroyo and Chalmers play the same way they did against these scrub teams to contenders… there really isn’t a point guard problem.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I have better handle than Mario Chalmers. Chris Quinn too. They should have signed me three years ago when I was asking for league minimum.

  • JTaylor21

    Miami will be an even better team when Miller comes back but I agree with BC on not wanting Miller running the point because a good coach would have his PG full-court pressure the ball all game and that would take too long for him to get up-court. Since the heat started using a traditional PG to bring the ball up instead of Wade or Bron, they have been playing much better. As much as I love wade and bron, both guys are not PGs, people don’t understand what it takes to master the hardest position in basketball and to expect either guy to be great at it when they haven’t been conventional PG in the NBA is asking too much. People can’t compare Magic’s PG skills to bron’s because magic played PG since his high-school days while Bron was more of a point-forward. Let either Chalmers or Arroyo bring the ball up the court and then pass it to either bron or wade to initiate the offense.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    @T-Money: Marquis Daniels doesn’t play the one. Robinson plays the one and Daniels will occassionally dribble it up. There’s a massive difference. Daniels would not be dribbling it up as well if he was being defended by a quicker point. I have no problem with Miller bringing up the ball, as long as he’s playing his natural position and going towards his natural position.
    And Chalmers is a way better ball handler than Miller. Sorry, that’s not even funny.
    @NBK:
    nbk Posted: Dec.7 at 1:04 pm
    … he’s smaller so mismatches (which is what the iso-nba relies on) won’t be as easy to come by.
    Please explain what you meant by this.
    Another team’s point would just plant themselves on Miller. Sure, he can shoot over them, but his role on the team would be to shoot when Wade/Lebron draw defenders away from him anyway. Good riddence.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Bryan if a team presses miller (not gonna happen but for the sake of argument)what stops LeBron or Wade from coming down the court an getting the ball or helping, wait a second is that what your taught when you learn the game? if there is pressure on the PG a wing must be ready to help. yes, and are you gonna full court press LeBron James and Dwyane Wade? No, immediately stop thinking of the PG position as a traditional need for Miami, they have not one single logical reason to put or get a player that will take ball in hand time away from LeBron, Wade and Bosh. Defensively the PG position is where Miami would be in trouble, this can be seen further by the fact that Miami’s best on-court rotation of any used this season are LeBron, Wade, Jones, Haslem and Bosh. Second, LeBron, Wade, Jones, Bosh, and Joel Anthony. Think about it.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    nbk, I’m not going to continue to go back-and-forth with you on something that is elementary basketball logic so I’ll just say to you plainly that Mike Miller is not the solution to Miami’s problems at the point and trying to “force” him to be the solution — theoretically or otherwise — only exacerbates the problem.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    Look, LOOK, JTaylor is agreeing with Bryan Crawford! That’s how wrong you guys are right now!

  • T-Money

    Thanks for adding nothing to the debate, Jagster. It’s getting circular so we’ll see how much time Miller plays with D-Wade and Bron at the same time. I’ve seen him bring the ball up before and I’m sure he’ll be able to do it with Miami too. Full court presses are rarely employed in the NBA because it rarely works unless it’s a gimmicky surprise play. As I said, Quis brings the ball up for Boston in spurts and it’S working just fine for them. They even had Tony Allen (of all people!) bring the ball up for them IN THE PLAYOFFS. Carlos Arroyo and Mario Chalmers are essentially bringing the ball up and then playing off the ball already. Miami does not and will not require a traditional pg that sets up the offense.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    I was talking about Chalmers Jukai.

  • Jagster

    PS: When I say Lebron is too big, not quick enough or lack the commitment; I’m saying that (not only was that tried in Cleveland his first yr and failed), there’s a lot of running around the court in the half court set. Also when you see a opening you got to pounce in a split second. That’s not Lebron’s game. He’s not as quick as little points, and he may be too big for the space. That works better father up top or on the low block. Lebron’s quick for a Forward, but not for a point guard. It’s also a lot of stress and conditioning to chase around those little point guards on defense (plus to run around the court to create offense). Lastly, he lacks point guards skills. He’s a good passer (even excellent passer for a forward), but he’s not a committed point guard/passer. He still wants to score a lot.

    Lastly on Magic. When he played, you had a more 6-4″-6’8″ guys (Michael Ray Richardson, Robert Reid, etc.) playing point guard that he could guard than now, when he didn’t have to guard the the other teams off guard. Make sense?

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Bryan the only problems Miami has had at the point all season, is on defense. Unlike you, I don’t judge a team based on my likes and dislikes, I judge it on what works and what doesn’t. So far this season, what works is having James Jones in instead of Chalmers and Arroyo. You can’t argue facts. After the fact’s are considered, would you say in your opinion that James Jones is better then Mike Miller? Because Miller in the scenario i’m talking about, would take James Jones place in this already most successful Heat lineup.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    @NBK: Have you ever played basketball when your point guard keeps losing his dribble and you have to stop what you are doing and run over to him and take the ball from him?
    It gets annoying and halts the play.
    I’m sure Wade and Lebron would be THRILLED to take the ball from Miller on full court presses. Of course, if this is the case, why not just have Lebron and Wade dribble it down and forget about Miller in the first place? I mean, if Lebron and Wade are immune to full court presses and are better ball handlers than Miller, why is Miller the solution and Wade/Lebron not. This entire thing really makes no sense.
    I listed the massive amount of problems moving MIller to the point would cause. At anytime during the game.
    You’re going to have Chalmers and Arroyo divide up 90% of the point guard time, with Wade/Lebron dividing up the rest. You don’t want Miller anywhere near the point guard position.
    And for that matter, Wade and Lebron are such GREAT passers, you really don’t want Miller controlling the tempo for anything more than ball movemenr and finding quick cutters. I’m sorry, but Miller’s talents are a bit redundant and forcing him at the point is just problematic.

  • Jagster

    @TMoney

    Cleveland already tried to play Lebron at point his first year and it didn’t work.

    Miller and Bron can bring the ball up, but their not point guards!

    Is that linear enough for you?

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    The full-court press argument is so entirely bogus that its embarrassing that you keep bringing it up. Sorry, but a team that full court presses immediately takes a help defender away from LeBron, Bosh and Wade. Plus opens themselves up to scrambling back on defense against a team that is more athletic then everyone else.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    @T-Money: Do you want Miller to play point or Miller to bring the ball up? There’s a ludicrous, humongous difference, and that’s mainly on what defenses he’s going to say and where Miller is going to go with the ball after he’s brought it up.
    I don’t THINK Miller should bring the ball up too much— after Arroyo/Wade/Lebron, why should Miller also bring it up?– But it’s far more reasonable than asking him to play point guard.

  • Jagster

    @TMoney

    PS:

    Mike Miller doesn’t dribble as well as Chalmers either (and I’m not saying either one of them are excellent ball handlers either).

    I see you’re confusing “Point guard like skills” (not skill sets), with being a (or good) point guard.

    Linear enough again for you?

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    Jagster’s 1:29pm comment sums up things perfectly.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Once again, Miami’s PG no matter who it is, doesn’t have the same responsibilities as any PG in the league. except LAL, who happen to be the back to back champs.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    nbk Posted: Dec.7 at 1:30 pm
    The full-court press argument is so entirely bogus that its embarrassing that you keep bringing it up. Sorry, but a team that full court presses immediately takes a help defender away from LeBron, Bosh and Wade. Plus opens themselves up to scrambling back on defense against a team that is more athletic then everyone else.
    This comment was so stupid.

  • JTaylor21

    When you have non-PGs like wade/bron/miller consistently bringing the ball up the court it takes away from the offense and forces them to go away from their strengths. Miller is a great shooter who can find the open man but he is not going to create shots for people on a consistent basis, same with wade who at times struggles to find the open man. Bron on the other hand is a great passer but he hasn’t mastered the art of playing the point yet and to expect him to just dive right in and excel at the position is ludacris. Have those guys do what the do best which is being scorers first and passers second. Even the lakers with Lamar Odom still makes sure that fisher brings the ball up the court and he then passes it to either kobe or odom and he goes to the corner and waits for a pass. That’s the same thing miami’s Pgs should be doing.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    NBK: No, Arroyo tries to use his speed to rush the floor and try to find quick openings, he actually plays way more successfully as a point on the Heat than I EVER gave him credit for. Lebron ALSO sometimes defers to Arroyo in running the break so that Lebron can trail any missed layups on that break. Miller can’t do any of those things.
    Chalmers is simply a far better defender, he is in there for his defensive abilities. Heck, with Chalmers in, I’d also want Miller in, to spread the floor better and create more ball movement. If anything, I want Chalmers and Miller playing together.
    Co-sign Bryan Crawford’s 1:35 pm post. Co-sign it three times over.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Someone mentioned full-court press……yes, I agree, that the HEAT should press teams, every game. Bron/Wade/Chalmers are all quick footed and have good anticipation skills. They could be like Michael and Scottie lite. I know that the Lakers envisioned doing that with Kobe and Ron, But Kobe has slowed way too much to exert that energy and Ron is just….well…he hasn’t be that great there. We’re starting to see the Heat run more and this would just add to their potential break out opportunities.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Jukai Jagsters 1:29 comment refers to events that happened 7 years ago. and for the 5th time, Miami’s best lineups already come with LeBron/Wade as the defacto 1, if you must say someone is definitively the 1. The beauty of the situation in miami is/will be, they don’t need a 1 at all

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    And no, I’m not hating on the Lakers or Ron in particular, bu to be honest, Ron was the 6th most important player on that team last year. That’s not saying alot for him. He’s probably less that that this season.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Miami’s PG doesn’t create open shots for people, and Jukai, considering the pace Miami plays at, and the fact that they aren’t better with Arroyo then they are with Chalmers, i’d say what he does rushing the ball up and down the court does as much good as bad, considering he’s rushing into a situation

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Comparing Lebron’s skills as a rookie to his now is ludicrous. Seriously.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    you know what the PER for Miami PG’s is? 12.9

  • JTaylor21

    NBK, I thing someone is mixing up full-court press with full-court trapping defense. There’s a difference between the two. Also arroyo has been playing a lot better lately which has to do with not playing elite PGs but regardless he’s doing a much better job of making shots and making plays when they are called for. When miami has had either wade or bron playing Pg they haven’t been as good but when they have both guys playing their natural position they have been much better. So why would you have miller play the point when he’s not a better per say PG than either guys? Have him stand on the corner waiting for a open shot or creating off the dribble if he’s covered. A coach that knows his player’s strengths and what to do with them is going to be a succesful coach.

  • T-Money

    Jukai: I’ve always talked about bringing the ball up. No one plays the traditional role of a point guard on Miami, not even Arroyo or Chalmers. Arroyo said last night that he’s had to adjust because his role is to bring it up and then spot up for the open jumper. Miller will never have to defend the 1. In a Wade-Bron-Miller line up, that role would fall primarily on Wade and, sometime, on Bron. Look, Spo will not be sitting Miller in crunch time in order to have a token pg out there. When they signed him this summer, it was with the vision of him playing crunch time minutes with Bron and Wade. Miller is not a situational player with this team, he’s their jack of all trades. / Come to think of it, I do agree with you that James Jones should not get regular minutes once Miller comes back and gets acclimated. He’s shooting really well but Miller did shoot 48% from 3 last year.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    you know who has the lowest on court wins produced for the Heat, Carlos Arroyo, Mario Chalmes, Eddie House and Eric Dampier.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Co-sign JTaylor’s 1:43. It’s a love fest in here!! And for the record nbk, TODAY, I’m not hating on the Heat, I’m talking basketball.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    nbk: How can you say they’re not better with Arroyo? They’ve played like, three games using Chalmers the way he is. That’s so dumb to say, there’s no way you got statistics on that. You just pulled that out of a hat. I’m done with this discussion, NBK.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    well have you actually watched heat games then? because for the umpteenth time, the heat are at their best without a PG on the court.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    the fact that you all hate on JTaylor every single day, and then suddenly agree with him here, shouldn’t be something to point out btw, its like saying, something must be wrong with that guy, he isn’t closing his eyes while he walks next to the grand canyon, and even bobo the tard is.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    @T-Money: Yes, no one plays a TRADITIONAL role but keeping Arroyo/Chalmers at the one is still better than moving Miller at the three.
    As I said before, both dudes are playing some point effectively. Arroyo will go into this super quick PG mode where he runs up the court during a half-court set and sees if he can make something happen. If he can’t, he gives it back. He also will lead a lot of breaks so Lebron can go off the ball. That’s playing point.
    Chalmers is in the point spot purely for defense, sure, but he’s also developed some drive-and-kick create opportunities for Bosh. Not sure that will stick, but it’s still being a point.
    Anyway, I’m done with this. I don’t see why Miller needs to bring up the ball when you have two point guards, a SG, and a SF all with great ball handling and passing who can do it better than Miller can. It’s a bit mystifying. But I’m done. It’s pointless.
    Later.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    nbk, I agreed with JTaylor because what he said makes sense from a basketball standpoint. You haven’t done that. You just keep trying to put lipstick on a pig and enter it into a beauty pageant.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    nbk Posted: Dec.7 at 1:48 pm
    well have you actually watched heat games then? because for the umpteenth time, the heat are at their best without a PG on the court.
    ——————————————————-
    This is the most blatant disregard for truth one can utter on this board. Let us not confuse— the Heat play without a TRADITIONAL point guard. That does not mean the Heat play without point guards. Arroyo, House, and Chalmers are all point guards, they play like points. The only time there is a point where there isn’t a one on the floor is when there is a Wade-Lebron-Jones lineup, and you have NOT seen this lineup for Miami’s entire five-game win streak, because Spolestra is now dividing up Lebron/Wade’s minutes and Jones isn’t in at the beginning/end when they play together.
    So to say that the Heat play better without a point guard is just a blatant THRASHING of the truth.
    I am not happy with that statement.

  • Jagster

    I’ll let you guys carry on this one.

    But don’t the HEAT already have too many ball handlers as it is?

    I think the problem with the HEAT ball handlers, is Lebron doesn’t respect anyone (outside of a top 5 point guard)on the team handling the ball, as the point of attack except Dwayne Wade.

    If Rondo, Nash, or CP3 was on the team, this wouldn’t be a problem. Then Lebron and Wade would play their roles willingly.

    PS:

    Someone one above mentioned Dwayne Wade is not a good passer? Huh? Wade is an excellent passer, both by watching with your own eyes and seeing his career averages.

    I don’t think he’s any worse than Lebron at it, though people like to think Lebron’s the better or more willing passer.

    I don’t think so!

    Nonetheless, enjoy your debate guys!

  • JTaylor21

    NBK, uhm actually the heat are much better when they have a true PG bringing the ball up the court and when they are running after every rebound. You have to understand that have a true PG like arroyo bringing the ball up the court is better than either Wade/bron/miller doing the same because it forces those guys to play a postion they’ve never played before. PG is the hardest position to master by far in the L, so why have players who have been great at one position, start all over and try to master another position. It would be a waste of their time and talents.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    Miami’s chemistry is FINALLY coming together— why does everyone want a slow small forward with a sloppy handle to suddenly be dribbling up the floor and trying to create running past the half-court… Why has everyone conviniently forgotten James Jones’ half-a-month stretch where he couldn’t hit a shot and Miller was desperately needed at the two and three to spread the floor and move the ball around the perimeter?
    By everyone, I mean only NBK and T-Money. Because guys who normally disagree constantly (Bryan, myself, JTaylor) are all agreeing with this very simple concept.

  • Jagster

    PS: Excellent summary by Jukai at 1:51pm

    “Anyway, I’m done with this. I don’t see why Miller needs to bring up the ball when you have two point guards, a SG, and a SF all with great ball handling and passing who can do it better than Miller can. It’s a bit mystifying. But I’m done. It’s pointless.
    Later.” Nuff said!

    I’m out to!! Lol

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Look at facts people. I’m not saying anything about Miami’s current situation that isn’t true.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Look at every possible statistical measure you can find. You will not find any that say Miami is better with Arroyo and Chalmers on the court then they are with LeBron, Wade, and James Jones. its a fact, i’m not speculating

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    *****
    Except that the pairing you’re speaking about has not happened once during Miami’s 5-game win streak where they have looked amazing.
    Here comes the fail train.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    Sorry, I was suppose to be out, but that comment by NBK really irked me. Lebron, Wade, and Jones rarely ever play more than five minutes together, usually will play during the close of a second quarter with mostly scrubs in, and have not played during the five game win streak where Miami has looked the best.
    Yet he has these STATISTICS which I assume are +/- numbers which he found somewhere which show they are best together.
    Utterly ridiculous.
    I’m done for real this time. See you when the games start later tonight, guys.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    never once did i say miller would be the primary ball handler. the amount of assuming that took place after i said miller would take minutes away from arroyo and chalmers (true, even erick spoelstra said so), i said no team will press (true, pressing against a team with wade and lebron is past retarded), and i said the heat are at their best without arroyo, chalmers, or house for facts sake, (also true, look it up). ya’ll are saying all of this stuff about how i’m not making “basketball sense,” i’m only saying what has already been said by Miami’s coach, by the experts, with some opinion. considering I have been playing basketball for 20 years and have focused the majority of my free time on it, some opinion is ok. But most of what I said is fact

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    they’ve been on the court together for over 60 minutes in just there two most effective lineups Jukai.

  • T-Money

    Jukai: I don’t see what’s your point. It is a FACT that Mike Miller will play a good chunk of his minutes with Wade and Bron also on the floor BECAUSE SPO HAS SAID SO. This is not a hypothetical discussion, it WILL happen. That is what was envisioned this summer and what Spo talked about during training camp before Wade got hurt and then Miller got hurt. Whether you want to call him a PG (I never did) is irrelevant. Your are who you defend, so Wade would be the PG in that line up because he will defend the opposing 1. Now, Miller will be asked to bring the ball up from time to time. He has already done so in the past (even if you fail to recognize this) and in preseason as well. / And by the way, their best perimeter line up so far has been Wade-Jones-James. (82 games)

  • MikeC.

    KG used to bring the ball up for the Wolves when their guards were being pressed full-court. I guess KG’s a PG now too. It’s just that easy.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I read this a little while ago and I don’t know why it seemed to sink it so much…..The Lakers, Celts and Magic have all played 300 games plus with their core lineups. The Heat have played about 20. I think this debate will be over when they have the same amount of games and success those teams do. 300…..20.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    Hey, 82games, great, let me check…
    Arroyo-Wade-James-Bosh-Anthony…. +45
    Arroyo-Wade-James-Bosh-Ilgauskas.. +34
    Wade-Jones-James-Haslem-Bosh…… +31
    Uh ohhhhhh…. looks like two people I know need to STFU.
    S-T-F-U.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    and the PG your all clamoring for, the whole position for Miami, doesn’t even average 3 assists per 36 minutes. SO all that BS about PG duties is proven ONCE AGAIN, irrelevant. – Over the course of this 5 game winning streak arroyo has 13 assits total, in over 25MPG

  • JTaylor21

    I’m not certain on this but no team has won a chip without having a conventional PG out there. You can’t just say we don’t need a PG and just put your best “playmaker” at the point and win a chip. Even the bulls with pippen still had traditional pgs lie kerr, paxson, and armstrong out there. You can’t throw a guy into the hardest position in basketball and expect him to be great at it.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Jukai do you not know how to read those stats? There is a huge minute disparity there pumpkin, so overcouse the +/- will have skewed numbers. Look at Off to Def comparison. Go look at the collective +/- of the group per 40 minutes from John Hollinger if you can.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I wanted to lost that about an hour ago, nbk, but I got sidetracked. The point position for the Heat barely makes a blip on their overall assist total. Why, because most of the offensive creation comes from Wade and Bron’s dribble drives.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    nbk, once you’re able to distinguish a full-court press from a full-court trapping press, you’ll be all the more smarter for it. Yes, a full-court trapping press against Miller would fail more than it succeeds. That’s common sense. But a man-to-man full court press — with no trapping principles — with a small, quick guard harassing Mike Miller as he brings the ball up would be more than effective. That’s also common sense. As for your statistical arguments, I have no comment.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    so you need to STFU, stop acting like your smarter then anyone else. You just proved you don’t understand what your looking at, and acted like an arrogant you know what in the process

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    “An arrogant you know what”…..that was the most sanitary insult ever!

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Miller doesn’t have to dribble up every possession Bryan. You have played basketball, presumably at the same time with two people that can dribble, probably even three, does a man to man full court press sound like a good idea when the other team has the two most athletic players on the court? does giving away position in your team half-court defense more important then trying to cause a 10 year NBA vet – ex rookie of the year/sixth man of the year to turn the ball over like a high school kid? that’s not even considering the likelihood of foul trouble trying to reach in on a 6’8 guy who has never averaged more than 2.6 TO’s per 36 minutes, and that your “advantage” in a full court press situation is completely lost once you cross half court, because your 6’1 “defensive answer” is now not even effective because the 6’8 player you stuck him on can shoot normal set shots even if he is contested by your >6’3″ PG

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    NBK: Minutes have absolutely nothing to do with +/-. Hell, if James/Wade/Lebron were in once and they went on a huge run, they’d have the best +/-. And if we subtract OFF from DEF, like you suggested, then the best lineup is actually Arroyo-Wade-James-Haslem-Bosh. So STFU.
    Why would I look at everything for 40 minutes? There’s a reason Wade/Lebron/Jones don’t play 40-minutes. A big reason. Usually that lineup, as I said, comes in the closing or opening of the half. It’s when odd-ball players are in when mismatches can be best exploited. It’s never at the beginning of the game. It is RARELY at the closing of a game, unless three point shooting is needed. So STFU.
    And I guarentee this Hollinger article you ‘can’t find’ was written before any of the five game win streak, when the rotation was hammered down and chemistry was at its best… wasn’t it? So STFU.
    You don’t know what you’re talking about.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    What NBK is suggesting is that sometimes, Arroyo dribbles it down, and sometimes, Wade dribbles it down, and sometimes, LEbron dribbles it down, and sometimes, Miller dribbles it down. This really makes for great rhythm when you are constantly setting up differently whenever someone has the ball.
    IE NBK really doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Eboy, that’s my point exactly. Their is no PG duties in Miami, there is guarding the opposing PG which I have said, is going to be the issue regardless of who plays, and there is passing the ball to wade or lebron and spreading the court. Two very easy things for an accomplished role player known for doing what his team needs no matter what it is.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Is that if they are all on the court at the same time together, Jukai….cause I doubt those four guys will be on the court at the same time.

  • T-Money

    Juks: You could also look at Win% and then holla at me. OR, yanno, just STFU.

  • JTaylor21

    Aye there’s no need to start throwing insults around here, lets stick to talking basketball and leave the BS aside. NBK, you have understand that you need a true PG out there regardless of how many assists he gets per game. The bulls pg didn’t avg. that much assists but PJax still kept them out there because he knew the value of having a conventional PG out there instead of forcing MJ or Pip to handle the ball up court on every play. The same thing is going on with the Lakers.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    The plus minus disparity will be bigger with more minutes jukai its common sense. If i play 5 minutes with the best lineup in the world, we can only win by so many points, for examples sake we’ll say we win by 10. so +10 in five minutes. You take another lineup thats better then other teams, but not your best, and you play it for 20 minutes, you win by 15 points. That’s +10 in 5 minutes versus +15 in 20. Which lineup is better?

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    nbk, your 2:31 comment was spoken like a true stat-nerd who doesn’t understand the basic principles of the game which are gained from actually playing and not from using a protractor.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Who’s posting under JTaylor’s screename?

  • http://www.twitter.com/TheDiesel Anton

    All these cats battling it out for second best, we all know the PG hierarchy is:
    1. Felton
    2. Bledsoe
    3. Dragic
    4. Miller
    5. The perception of Johnny Flynn
    6. Nate Robinson
    7. Rubio
    8. T-Mac
    9. Iverson
    10. Felton again

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Jukai your suggesting the PG dribbles the ball up and down the court everytime, IE Jukai has no idea what in the world he/she is talking about

  • max

    amazing, first comment section in months, in which people actually talk basketball. Truly enjoying it and please keep it up (especially jtaylor and crawford), it makes for way better reading than those
    comment section massacres…

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    Look, if Spo wants to take away minutes from Arroyo/Chalmers to make room for Miller, I think it’s a mistake. Spo also wanted to play Bosh evenly between the four/five and that was an utter failure. Spo didn’t want to play Chalmers, look how well Chalmers is playing now. Spo wanted to start Joel Anthony because Lebron/Wade would make Anthony a better offensive player. Oops.
    BUT if Spo is going to do it, then moving Wade at the one and putting Miller at the two is probably the best way to do it, I guess.
    I just don’t see why Miller has to bring down the ball when Wade and Lebron can do it faster and more effectively. Someone has to explain this to me. I mean, especially, -ESPECIALLY- if you believe that Jones/Wade/Lebron are best paired together, why should Miller dribble the ball down? I guarentee Jones wasn’t dribbling the ball down, so why should Miller dribble the ball if the Heat are -presumably- at their most effective when Wade/LEbron are doing it.
    This entire argument just made no sense.:
    FACT: The Heat are playing their best basketball. Yes, these are bad teams they are beating, but they are beating them soundly
    FACT: During this stretch, either Arroyo or Chalmers played the point.
    FACT: Lebron and Wade have been separated minute wise— they play less together, so each can play effectively and get in rhythm.
    FACT: Lebron-Wade-Jones, to my knowledge, haven’t seen anything more than five minutes together on this road trip. And the chemistry has looked the best it has looked.
    FACT: Miller is a better James Jones— better shooting, better passing, better defense. But he doesn’t really BRING anything else to the table outside of his passing. His dribbling isn’t that much better, his speed isn’t that much better… and James Jones utterly failed trying to play the point the way the Heat originally wanted him to. How would making Miller play point guard duties change things? If you want a Wade/Lebron/Miller lineup, fine, I say go for it. You will see that a lot when the Heat are in crunch time against a BIG team and they need the surefire three-point shooting. But during this time, Wade or Lebron will be playing the point. Miller will be playing the 3 spot.
    And if Spo wants Wade/Lebron/Miller in every competative end game situation, he’s going to lose. Plain and simple.
    I want this to be the end, but I know NBK or T-Money are going to say something which will tick me off again.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    And the reason he hasn’t used the lineup more in because LBJ has and will publicly b*tch and moan about having too many responsibilites, not because the itp only works in situational lineups.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    @T-Money: The best win percentage lineup, then, would be Chalmers-Wade-James-Bosh-Anthony. Yanno. Best check every category on that 82game list before we make an ass out of ourselves.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I can’t imagine what it will be like if the Heat actually beat somebody, like the Jazz, tomorrow.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Bryan Crawford unless you actually played college basketball, or some level higher, you have no room to call out my basketball intelligence/experience level. I don’t let you know that the majority of your comments seem to have more box score/sportscenter recap knowledge then actual “watched all 48 minutes experience” well not before now

  • T-Money

    But Jukai, again, what is your point? Is it that Mike Miller is not a point guard? Of course he is not a point guard. Is it that he can’t initiate the offense? He will NEVER have to initiate the offense with James and Wade on the floor. Is it that he won’t play with James and Wade at the same time? Of course, he will. Spo already said that will be his crunch time line up. Is it that Miller can not bring the ball up from time to time? He has done so already in Minnesota and Washington and DURING THIS VERY PRESEASON. When Wade and James grab the defensive rebound, they already bring it up. Miller will do the same. The point guard role as you guys define it doesn’t exist with Miami because creating offense is SOLELY the responsibility of Wade and James. // That’s why I hate how positions are currently defined in basketball. It’s just not true that every team plays 1-2-3-4-5. Rashard Lewis is not a stretch 4. He doesn’t do ANYTHING that a power forward does. He posts up about once a month. So, if we adhere to SVG’s theory that you are who you defend, Miller will never defend the opposing point guard when he’s on the floor with Wade and James. That’s going to be D-Wade’s job.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Wade-Jones-James-Haslem-Bosh – is the best win% lineup Jukai, you best practice what you preech

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    and by play, i mean got actual on court experience with a college coaching staff / system

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Oh no……….

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    NBK: Yeah, it’s because Lebron doesn’t want it. That’s totally it. Lebron is against winning. It’s the truth.
    Okay, let’s get back to basics:
    true or false questions:
    TRUE/FALSE: During the last five games, Miami has looked their best chemistry wise
    TRUE/FALSE: During the last five games, Miami has used a more traditional lineup, with either Arroyo/Chalmers running the point.
    Take your time in your answer, NBK.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Actually nbk, its pretty obvious that you’re not a basketball player. Your comments all but prove that. So I can and I will continue to call out you and your uninformed basketball logic.

  • http://djflkf.com Jukai

    @NBK: W L W%
    Chalmers-Wade-James-Bosh-Anthony 3 0 100
    Wade-Jones-James-Haslem-Bosh 5 1 83.3
    That fail chain keeps a-comin, it’s rollin’ round the bend..

  • JTaylor21

    People have to remember that when the heat forced lebron to play PG early in the season he was avg. astronomical turnovers, which backs up my claim about the PG position being the hardest in basketball. If a guy like Bron could struggle playing PG what makes people think that a guy with lesser talents like Mike Miller could be better, if anything he would fail miserably. Like Jukai pointed out the heat having being playing great lately when they have a true Pg out there instead of wade or bron playing the point.

  • http://dsajfklf.com Jukai

    That didn’t format properly, but hey, you get the drift

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    oh my bad i didn’t go lower then 20 minutes of floor time – regardless, are you going to use that as your proof your right? because if you are, please refer back to your own comment about being on the court as a unit for a limited amount of time.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    nbk = no basketball knowledge

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Actually, the Heat looked their best (albeit for one game) when they hammered the Magic.

  • T-Money

    I have a comment under moderation. Please look at all the lineups with Wade-James-Jones. Find the average, and then compare it with all other perimeter permutations so far // First off, how can you say that LeBron and Wade’s minutes are being separated when they play at least the first 8 minutes of quarters 1 and 3 and the last 8 minutes of quarters 2 and 4 together? If anything, Spo is just trying to find a way to make sure that at least one of them is on the court at all times. Secondly, James Jones and Mike Miller are vastly different player. They play nothing alike. I really don’t know how to break this down to you, have you ever watched Mike Miller play? His dribbling is vastly superior, he passes way better (4 assists a game vs 0.5), he rebounds much better (5+ a game), he’s a better team defender (something that Bron and Spo said they would miss during his absence). Thirdly, I must have missed the utter failure of James Jones the point guard. That never happened. The man has not taken three consecutive dribbles all year. // As I’ve said, Wade/Bron/Miller will happen. Now, you can disagree on whether it will work but I think it’s insane to have a guy like Mike Miller on the bench because it says “pg” next to Chalmers’ and Arroyo’s name. Especially when you have playmakers like Bron and Wade on the wing.

  • http://dsajfklf.com Jukai

    Right, of course, you drew the imaginary line at under 20 minutes, instead of under 45 minutes, which would get rid of your Wade-Jones-James-Haslem-Bosh lineup.
    This is just so dumb. I’m not using it as proof at all because you should go by +/- of floor time as effectiveness, augmented by when these guys are actually playing. I’ve watched every Heat game that didn’t coincide with a Phoenix game, and sometimes, I’ve ever went for the Heat game. I can tell you that Lebron-Wade-Jones rarely happened, has happened less as the season has gone on, and did not I repeat DID-NOT-HAPPEN during the Heat’s 5-game win streak, which they have finally looked the best.
    But let’s just ignore all that.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    haha original Bryan, noone has ever used that before, not even when I used to go on this site to argue with everyone about anything to kill time. I don’t need to prove myself to you, obviously facts prove I don’t play basketball, and a comment where i only used one stat proved i’m a no experience having “stat junkie” LMAO, your right

  • http://dsajfklf.com Jukai

    Bryan, no need for that, bro.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    What I said was that their best TWO (please read and respond to what I actually say, don’t pick and choose to make yourself feel right) have been on the court for 60 minutes. In 20 games, I think 60 minutes is a decent barometer. Plus my argument is not that they should play james jones at all, my point is the Heat are at their best with Jones instead of Arroyo and CHalmers (fact), and will be even better when Jones is subplanted with Miller (Opinion).

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Jukai, you’re right. Nbk, I know I am.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Jukai btw a 5-game winning streak against 5 non-playoff teams (the hawks without JJ is not a playoff team) that the Heat were already beating every single game proves absolutely nothing. Just for the record

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I think I called nbk that a year ago….or at least it sounds like something I would have done.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I’d also like to say this…..if the 5 of us could all pool our resources and take over the team from Spoelstra, they may never lose another game.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Bryan does the fact that you work for Slam make you think you know more then other people? I don’t act like I know more about school then everyone in here because I’m enrolled in one. Plus, I guarantee you that at a comparable age (idk how old you are) that I have more basketball experience then you, playing/watching/coaching, its not possible (cognitively speaking)

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    *Slow clap for adult conversation*

  • http://dsajfklf.com Jukai

    This is not fact. The one with the best W% is Chalmers-Wade-James-Bosh-Anthony. The one with the best OFF/DEF difference is Arroyo-Wade-James-Haslem-Bosh. The one with the best +/- is Arroyo-Wade-James-Bosh-Ilgauskas. You just can’t combine the best TWO and say that they work. That’s worse than even picking one: you have no idea the workings behind the mismatches.
    But whatever, once again, I will repeat which you have not and cannot rebuttal
    FACT: The chemistry behind the heat have looked BETTER in the last five games than they ever have been
    FACT: Take a look at the minutes played…
    MIL: Arroyo: 32, Chalmers: 16
    ATL: Arroyo: 21, Chalmers: 27
    CLV: Arroyo: 28, Chalmers: 20
    DET: Arroyo: 27, Chalmers: 24
    WAS: Arroyo: 25, Chalmers: 22
    I don’t really know how you can keep arguing this.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    Well, mostly…

  • http://dsajfklf.com Jukai

    Myles: I miss you. Please come back. <3

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    for you too be MORE experienced comparatively

  • JTaylor21

    This is the NBA where in the playoffs you need players playing to their strengths not trying to be something they are not. Arroyo/Chalmers are PGs (not great but the heat don’t need a great one) while Miller/Bron/Wade are scorers who can pass. The heat are a great team when you have Bron at SF attacking and finding open shooters, wade slashing and drawing fouls, arroyo/chalmers bringing the ball up court and spotting up, Bosh on the block and hitting shots off PnR.

  • http://dsajfklf.com Jukai

    Anyway, now I gotta go for real. I know when Miller comes back, the Heat have the potential to really push themselves into contender shape.
    Let’s hope Spolestra don’t mess it up.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    I’m not arguing anything that has to do with the last 5 games Jukai. I’m talking about what has worked this season, and what i think will work in the long run. Do you think arroyo and chalmers see those minutes against Rajon Rondo, Derrick Rose, Jameer Nelson, ect? Because if Erick Spoelstra is a good coach, he will try and find an advantage, rather then sitting idly by while there is a obvious mismatch on the court with no advantage to play off of at all. If you think the Heat will be ok playing 4 on 5 during the playoffs then yeah they’ll keep the bulk of the minutes with arroyo and chalmers, but if they want to win, and play to their strengths like a well coached team would and will then they will have Wade, LBJ and Miller on the court together. As has already been said by everyone, ESPN Analyst, NBA “insiders”, even the f*ckin HEAT coach has said so.

  • JTaylor21

    I also have to point out that another reason why the heat have been winning lately has to do with them rebounding well and pushing the ball at times. Now if they could just do that on every occasion they would be a much better team but I know that is too much to ask from an offensive “genius” like Spo. You have two of the best athletes in the L but he chooses to run an offense that would put 60 year old church league ballers to sleep.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Actually nbk, thats just how I roll. I’m pompous like that. Plus, I know when I’m right.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I guess now “Shoulder Bump Gate” and “The Meeting” seem to have been part of the turning point and not a descent into egotistical hell? Dummies.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    JTaylor21 Posted: Dec.7 at 3:12 pm
    This is the NBA where in the playoffs you need players playing to their strengths not trying to be something they are not. Arroyo/Chalmers are PGs (not great but the heat don’t need a great one) while Miller/Bron/Wade are scorers who can pass. The heat are a great team when you have Bron at SF attacking and finding open shooters, wade slashing and drawing fouls, arroyo/chalmers bringing the ball up court and spotting up, Bosh on the block and hitting shots off PnR.

    So you’d rather have arroyo and chalmers spotting up then Mike Miller.

    And lets not forget, we haven’t even brought up the fact that the heat struggle on the boards, and Mike Miller is notoriously a good rebounder. Also, with Mike Miller on defense the Heat will be able to switch on every single pick, and aspect of chicago’s defense during their second 3-peat that was rarely talked about. Its very hard to play a team that can interchange on defense at all three positions during any given offensive set. (I’m not saying anyone is a lock down defender, don’t go pulling stuff out of thin air)

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    E, when the Heat do more than just beat up on bottom-feeders, holla

  • Jagster

    @Anton

    I like Felton and Nate Robinson (though he’s not a real point, he’s learned a lot from Rondo, The Big 3 and Doc), making him a lot more well rounded than before.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Bryan your a pompous arrogant ignorant prick to be completely honest. And its very off-putting that Slam would hire someone as willing to lower themselves and the company they represent as you. But hey who am I, just some “stat geek” that makes up your companies target audience.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    You want to know what REALLY turned the season around (at least it seems that way as of today)? Wade and Bron bumped heads and instead of splintering, they ironed that sh*t out in private (within that “mystical” players only meeting) and decided to play ball….TOGETHER….and not pout their way through struggles and bail on the rest Bosh, Spo and anyone else that had expectations on them. That’s the real sh*t, as told to me from one of the Heat’s broadcast guys that has the teams pulse. The rest of the problems start to alleviate because of it.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Mike Miller is Superman. He can do everything.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    especially considering I and other have seen you be compeletely wrong on more then one occasion and you have never once been man enough to admit your wrong, or overly biased to the point of ignoring logic, just saying, its not me that’s the issue when you ahve a problem with a different commenter on a regular basis

  • http://stapledesign.com Spaceship Jay

    @Bryan C; I wonder if a lot of dudes on this site actually play/played the game. @Eboy; indeed… Who has possessed Taylor?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    @Bron, you can be certain that the first game with the Bulls will be detremental for your health. @nbk, while Bron Crawford may be an arrogant prick, I can speak with some level of certainty that most of the SLAM writers do their work for free (especially for the on-line work) so it’s kind of misleading when we think they are paid employees of some sort….they definitely have the perks alot of us would love to have (player access, game access, a public forum, etc)but they’re also doing it out of love for the game and this place, so it’s commendable even when the disagreement is there between commenter and writer.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    different commenter’s*

  • JTaylor21

    NBK, damn forgive me Mr. Omnipotent. What would you rather have arroyo and chamlers doing out there? Posting up? They are in the same boat as miller, house, and jones, they were brought in here to be spot up shooters not guys who create off the dribble. It’s the same way LA uses Fisher, they allow him to bring the ball up the court, he passes to either kobe or odom then he spots up on the three point line waiting for an open look. Also I don’t think you want Miller starting out there because he’s much better off the bench.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    nbk, I’ve been called worse. I’ll take your insult as a compliment. And I wasn’t aware that stat-nerds were SLAM’s target audience. Can you provide any mathematica/statisticall data to support that claim? I don’t believe you.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Chalmers wasn’t brought in to be a spot up shooter….he was drafted with the idea in place that he would be the long term starting point guard for the squad. That hasn’t panned out yet.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Bron, I know the target audience for SLAM…I was told it in an email a couple of years ago from one of the SLAM Head of State. 12-18 year olds. Plain and simple. If there are stat nerds of ball players in that age range, then they’re all good.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    @JTaylor, i didn’t mean it like that, I meant with that little amount of responsibility, and the fact that Miller is a better shooter, and bigger (easier to shoot over smaller players) then wouldn’t it make sense to give those duties (passing and then spotting up) to him?

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Bryan, by target audience I mean a male between the ages of 16 and 30. The “stat geek” part was in reference to you nitpicking one single stat in a comment as being a “stat nerd with no real basketball experience” (and the stat that prompted that ignorance – TurnOvers). wow

  • T-Money

    BC: But mostly shoot the ball. And be better at basketball than Arroyo, Chalmers, House and Jones combined. Which is all we’re expecting him to do. A 48% 3-point shooter last year will get wide open looks all game long. I’m freaking STOKED.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    @JTaylor, also I never said Miller should start. Or should play the bulk of the minutes at the point. I said he should finish games, and will be part of their main (end of game) lineup, no matter who they are playing.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Actually nbk, the fact that you so vehemently argued the Mike Miller for PG thing when it makes no sound bball sense is what helped shape my opinion.

  • JTaylor21

    EBoy, since that didn’t work out, he has no choice but to become a spot up shooter because he’s not going to be getting that opportunity again anytime soon. NBK, no because when you have guys like bron and wade who are better than him at everything why not have them doing that. I wouldn’t want them playing point but why hand the pg duties to a lesser talented guy?

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    So because Miller is taking minutes away from Arroyo and Chalmers ya’ll assume I’m saying he should be there primary ball handler? Arroyo and Chalmers aren’t even the primary ball handler when they are in the game, what would change with Miller?

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    I so vehemently argued the Heats best lineup is James, Wade, Jones, Bosh, Anthony….because it is. Using that as the basis for my OPINION, I “vehemently” argued that the best heat LINEUP will be with Wade, James, and Miller. I didn’t vehemently argue who the PG would be, i said over and over and over and over again that their offense is not traditional, so there is no real need for a traditional PG, the position is just a name, it isn’t a different sport.
    __________________________________________________
    and then I backed up my opinion with proof, the successful lineup, the use of ron harper in chicago (whether you agree or not, its still proof a non-pg can play the position).,
    ____________________________________________________
    and then i used my 20 years of basketball experience (as a pg) to introduce the idea that an interchangeable group of wings that can all dribble, pass and score, that can switch on picks, and create gauranteed offensive mismatches is a better solution then a below average PG that is relegated to spot up shooting duties in the offense and is ultimately a two-way disadvantage (offensively and defensively)

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    nbk, don’t back pedal now. A few of us here basically broke down why Miller playing PG would be a massive failure and you consistently argued against it.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    haslem* not anthony

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    I didn’t mean to introduce – because its a stolen concept, from the 80′s celtics, and the second three peat bulls, who used their size and speed advantage to switch on defense and limit offensive options.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    The Ron Harper argument doesn’t apply to Mike Miller. He doesn’t even have the same skill set. Someone with “20 years of basketball experience” should be able to recognize that.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    I argued why he would take Chalmers and Arroyo’s minutes. I never once called him a PG, or said he would be better at that position then the other two, I said its best for the Heat…as a team. Plus the only thing Ya’ll argued was that he couldn’t take care of the duties of a PG (dribble up the court being the only one used – which is laughable to even consider being a problem, no team will press, not against the Heat, and if they did LeBron would do what he does regardless of whose “in at point”, dribble up the court)

  • JTaylor21

    Nbk, but isn’t that going to mess up their offensive flow if you have different guys bringing the ball up the court and creating. It would go back to what wade and bron were doing in the beginning of the season and what they wanted to stop doing, which was taking turns running the offense. The only way a team can be succesful is if the players know their roles, which is another reason why the heat have been playing well so far. Wade knows his role as the cutter/attacker, bosh knows his role as the lost post/PnR guy, and bron knows his role as the facilitator/scorer.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    what’s the skillset bryan, Harper was 33 or 34 his first year in chicago, and relied largely on his athletic ability for most of his career. He was also the primary scoring option on Cleveland and the Clippers, so his skillset did not dictate he would be a usable point. Infact, before MJ came back, and created the ability to switch on anyone on the perimeter for chicago’s defense Ron Harper was a situational role player off the bench that saw no important floor time. but hey, its not like i’ve been watching the sport my whole life or anything

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    JTaylor, they already have a different guy bringing the ball up the court and creating, from possession to possession. The roles for Miami are simple, Wade, Bosh, and LeBron get 95% of the plays called for them, everyone else is to shoot when they are open, defend their position/take care of their defensive responsibilities. Its not a traditional team where there is one star that everyone else must try and fit around.

  • JTaylor21

    NBk, you’re obvioulsy watching another team because the team I saw win 5 in a row has either Arroyo or Chalmers bringing the ball up the court most of the times. The only time either wade or bron brought the ball up the court was either after a rebound or when arroyo and chalmers were on the bench.

  • T-Money

    Whoa, there. Nobody ever said that Mike Miller should start at the 1. What I (and I believe NBK) argued is precisely that he will play a lot with Wade/James and will finish games for Miami instead of Arroyo and Chalmers. My point has been that there will be NO POINT GUARD in that line up and that they WOULD ALL bring the ball up. I’m arguing the capacity of Mike Miller to bring it up from time to time when on the court with Wade/James. I believe he can get that done and so does Spo (and Wade and James).

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    I looked, Harper was 31 his first year in chicago, and played 19.9 minutes. He did start 53 games, at the 2, then was relegated to bench duties when MJ came back. He scored 6PPG 2APG 2RPG, Mike Millers numbers have never been that low.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    nbk, first off, Ron Harper was 30-years-old his first season in Chicago which was in ’94-’95… And that’s where I think I’ll stop my rebuttal because for the past few hours you’ve made it clear that you pretty much don’t have a clue and you’re just guessing and saying things that only make sense to you.

  • T-Money

    JTaylor: when Arroyo or Chalmers are on the floor, there is no need for others to bring it up. But none of them will be on the floor in crunch time.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    JTaylor, a 5-game winning streak against teams they were already beating means nothing to me. They beat those teams 9 of 10 playing crap basketball, this 5 game win streak dictates nothing.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    T-Money, that’s exactly what i’ve been saying thank you.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    The thing that has gotten lost in all of this is LBJ’s refusal to be the primary ball-handler and facilitator even though he is the player MOST capable.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    actually I mentioned that earlier, you know with all the other things i’ve been so “wrong” about.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/blogs/farmer-jones/ Ryan Jones

    In a world where there is so little we can really count on, the predictability of the comments section lately is sort of heart-warming.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    *slow clap*

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    a Ryan Jones appearance, bigfoot?

  • T-Money

    BC: I see what you’re trying to do there but Bron has not refused anything. He is actually the primary ball-handler and facilitator on the team. He admitted that he was playing point a lot at the beginning of the year (when, mind you, guys like you where saying that he was pounding the ball too much – do you want him to be point or not?!) but Spo has made a concerted effort to not have Bron or Wade bring the ball up unless they grab the board. Nice try.

  • JTaylor21

    NBk, you play whoever they put on your schedule, would you be happier if they said they would only play good teams and refused to play the average teams. Their PGs have been equally average in games vs good teams and games vs avg. teams, so that’s not the problem. Their problem vs good teams is keeping PGs out the paint and stopping opposing big men from abusing them. Taking either arroyo or chalmers out the lineup is not going to fix the issues nor is making bron/wade or miller their primary PG going to make them any better.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    T-Money, I’m not trying to do anything. You guys were the ones who said that LBJ had an aversion to playing the PG which is why you guys suggested playing Mike Miller at the 1 instead. And unless my understanding of basketball is all the way off, dribbling 10 seconds off the shot clock every time down the floor and not facilitating any ball movement on offense isn’t exactly what a PG does. But I’m not going to get into an LBJ hate fest today. I see what you’re trying to do there. Nice try.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    JTaylor, they have been absolutely torched by good PG’s. Wouldn’t it be better to alteast have an advantage on offense, since they get so totally demoralized by PG’s on defense?

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Well, for the most part this was about basketball, but of course it devolved some. Whats funny is some people( hubie, jvg, etc) have been critical of mike miller the past couple years for not looking for his shot, and passing up open looks. They said hes been handling too much, which takes away from his strength: shooting. Mm can handle and distribute some, but not for a whole game, and those skills wont be needed much in miami.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    So just employ a bigger and more offensive oriented lineup and outscore your opponents? I thought the goal was to win championships, not just a lot of regular season games…

  • T-Money

    Again, I’ve never said that Mike Miller should play the one. All I’ve said is that he will be asked to bring the ball up some. There will not be a point guard in Miami’s crunch time lineup. Wade will defend opposing point guards. It doesn’t matter what you call Mike Miller, he will be on the floor with Wade and Bron to finish games. If you want to pretend that your 4:28 pm comment was not an attempt to bring this on Bron… hey, whatever floats your boat, I guess. Your comment is still flatly inaccurate, he never refused to be the primary ball-handler or facilitator. That’s what he’s been his whole career (unless you want to argue that Mo played that role in Cleveland).

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Ya’ll realize your arguing that having Carlos Arroyo/Mario Chalmers on the court is better then having Mike Miller right? That’s what this comes down too.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Employ your best lineup. If your already being torched on defense (even though Mike Miller is a better defender then Arroyo, at every position, and better then Chalmers against everything but PG’s) why not be as good as possible on offense. It can’t hurt, if your already basically dead on one end of the floor. Mike Miller also allows Wade and LeBron to guard the most dangerous offensive wing on the other team during the most important possessions, because he can effectively gaurd any spot up shooter of any size, as well as supply a more effective double teaming option then any PG.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    so he therefore, offensively and defensively is the best late game option Miami has, against everyone except maybe Golden State.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Ryan jones: chipotle!!

  • T-Money

    BC: Wade/Bron/Miller is also a better defensive line up. In SHORT SPURTS, D-Wade is Miami’s most adept defender at the 1. He’s the only one on the team that can stay with guys like CP3, Rondo, Deron, etc. He shouldn’t do it the whole game but if I’m Spo, I WANT D-Wade on Rondo at the end of games. Guys, just face it: there is nothing to gain by having Arroyo or Chalmers on the floor instead of Mike Miller at the end of games.

  • T-Money

    Also, can we chill juuuuuuuuuuuuust a bit on Miami’s defensive shortcomings? 2nd in the league in points allowed, first in opposing FG%, fifth in opposing 3FG%. Cmon now. The rebounding, now that’s a real concern. Although Bosh has been rebounding better lately (which magically coincides with him not having to box out guys 40 lbs heavier than him – he did grab 11 boards a game last year). What Miami needs more than anything is reps together. Bron and Wade had to get their reps during the season since Wade didn’t play pre-season. And they’ll need their reps with Mike Miller once he comes back. They have until the end of April to figure this outé

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    If Wade is the most adept defender at the 1 yet Spo decides not to have him guard the elite PG’s and they subsequently go on to destroy the Heat, the logical assumption would be that a)Wade isn’t as good as defensively advertised, or b) Spoelstra is a moron.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    its A – Wade is not a very good one on one defender.
    _____________________________________________________

    but he is top 3 help defending guard in the league IMO (Bryant, Kidd, Wade)

  • jumpman23

    All I gotta say is that the Heat are finally putting it together. Just watch out when they solidify their lineups.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    I missed a lot, but I co sign with Jukai and Bryan Crawford.

  • T-Money

    I dont even know what youre arguing against at this point. Wade cant guard 1s when Arroyo or Chalmers are on the floor because tgose csnt guard 2s. Wade can stay in front of almost any pg in short spurts. Thats why he will guard 1s at the end of game. Simple, no? // As for Mike Miller, he will play and play a lot. How he is categorized us largely irrelevant. Dude CAN dribble. He did so in Memphis, MInny and DC. And he will never be asked to cover pointguards. Ever. Tge argunent was never about whether miller is a pg but can wade/miller/james work together.

  • Jagster

    @Bryan Crawford

    Bron can’t play point, doesn’t want to play point and tried to play it in Cleveland (disaster) and during the preseason.

    I don’t even think he’s the best one for the job on the team. But Wade’s too good a scorer, to play the point either.

    Lebron can’t guide points, nor has committed to the position offensively.

    What’s he’s playing now is not the position.

  • Jagster

    PS: Wade doesn’t want to guard or play the point full time either.

    It’s a tough position now, unless your mostly a quick guy with a lot of stamina.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Blake gets all the hype (and rightfully so), but Eric Gordon is really playing fantastic basketball right now. Dude is looking like Mitch Richmond lately… He’s a keeper in this league; defnitely all-star material.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    The change on jtaylor in this comment section reminded me of what happened to al capone on boardwalk empire. Who pulled your coat man?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Tarzan, Britt Robson used to make the same complaints about Millervwhen he was in minnesota. But that could have been a fincion of him being on a poor team and trying to do too much.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    Ok, will the real Jtaylor please stand up.
    I didn’t bother reading all the comments from Slam’s most notorious know-it-alls in this TPU, but JT being civil was… different.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    So who got to JT, Slamfam?
    Ryne threaten his pet?
    Russ put out a hit on his favorite teacher?
    Did you sic Gervino on him?
    Psychological warfare?

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    @Tarzan & Allen the difference IMO now is he has players that will demand he shoot, rather then coaches. In Minn he was the Vet presence, and Washington he and the other Vets were all hurt so never got a chance to be aggressive. Well hopefully for Miami’s sake.

  • http://dsajfklf.com Jukai

    So everyone agrees but NBK and T-Money. Great!
    Look, situationally, of course Wade-Lebron-Miller will be used. This is during either non-starting lineups where defensive attacks wont be as big of a deal, or a crunch time situation where the Big 3 need more three-point shooting and iso plays instead of a lot of ball movement and cutting.
    The problem is, I just don’t think T-Money and NBK know what a point guard does, how he operates.
    I mean, when have the Lakers used their Kobe-Artest-Odom-Gasol-Bynum lineup? They haven’t. Why? Cause they NEED A POINT GUARD. Wade-Lebron-Miller will occassionally play together, but it wont happen a lot, simply because it puts either Wade or Lebron in an uncomfortable position. And forces Wade to guard Chris Paul/Deron Williams/Rose/Rondo/etc. Which, we’re realizing this year, he can’t.
    But please, even though EVERYONE seems to agree with Bryan Crawford and myself, keep arguing.

  • http://dsajfklf.com Jukai

    Also, I’m laughing beause as I watch the Suns game, the Blazers are running full court presses on Nash at every possession. ROFL@”No team ever runs full court presses anymore”

  • http://dsajfklf.com Jukai

    Maybe JTaylor just wanted to be civil and intelligent, Dark, did that ever occur to you, hur hur?

  • The Philosopher

    I cannot believe that Mike Miller is a point guard, now. I just cannot believe it…
    Unbelievable.

  • http://Www.fiba.com Darksaber

    Juks: sure thing, civil has been his m.o. ever since he started writing here. I wonder why your explanation didn’t occur to me?

  • JTaylor21

    I absolutely love Boardwalk Empire (my fav characters are Chalky White and Mr.Half a Face; Richard Harrow) and can’t wait till next season, AllenP, no one pulled my coat, I just love it when we are strictly talking basketball.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    wtf is boardwalk empire???

  • T-Money

    Damn, another comment under moderation. Jukai: Being right or wrong has nothing to do with democracy. Comparing Kobe-Artest-Odom to Wade-Bron-Miller is so ridiculous that I don’t even know where to begin. So I won’t, I’ll let you rethink that. Somehow, the discussion got swayed into whether Mike Miller is a point guard, which was never my point. My point was that this line up can work WITHOUT a designed point guard. And again, why are you arguing this like we don’t know whether Mike Miller will play a lot with James and Wade. That’s why they signed him for and that’s what Spo said his role would be with this team even though he won’t start games. It’s exactly like Odom – he will not start but will ALWAYS finish games. Spo has said this already, it’s not really debatable. You can argue if you think it’ll work or not but you can’t argue if it’ll happen or not, it’s already been decided. Unless you’ve had conversations with Spo recently which I was not privy to.

  • T-Money

    And as I’ve also said (but was glossed over), if Quis Daniels and Tony Allen can bring the ball up from time to time in this league – and they both did for Boston – it’s not even a question if Mike Miller can. But go ahead and lecture me on the intricacies of the point guard position even if the very idea is that Mike Miller would not have to perform traditional point guard duties. Again, Bron-Wade-Miller will not be used situationally – Miami is on the record saying that they will play this a lot. There’s a reason why he is the 4th highest paid player and the one they signed immediately after the big 3. So what am I wrong about? Better yet, what is there to be wrong about? It’s like if you told me that Fisher sucks therefore he will not start for the Lakers anymore. Yeah, that might be your opinion but facts are not really debatable

  • T-Money

    And come to think of it, Jukai, I now vividly remember you arguing ad nauseam that Miami’s starting line up should be Wade-Miller-Bron-Bosh-Z on other posts!!! You’ve had a revelation?

  • T-Money

    And I’ll just finish on this for the ones who have not seen Mike Miller play much (I’m looking at you, Jukai). He led all 2-guards last year in true shooting percentage, rebound rate and assist ratio. So nothing like a better version of James Jones, he’s a complete basketball player. And he’s actually been bringing it some since his Gators day. You can take a look at his HoopsHype player profile too to end the debate (unless you think they’re not a legit source).

  • http://sdfklfds.com Jukai

    T-Money: Yeah, my revolution is that Lebron isn’t that great of a passer in the open court, and he has openly complained so much about creating in the halfcourt that it would be pointless to try and force it. I believe every other person who has watched the Heat has had that epiphany as well.
    I’ll try and explain my Lakers/Heat comment with minimum syllables. It was either you or NBK who said that “Miller is better than Chalmers and Arroyo so why not play your best players!!!!” So I responded that the Lakers do not play Kobe-Ron-Odom-Gasol-Bynum. Even though they are totally capable of doing so, since Kobe is able to bring the ball up and pass, and Kobe can defend point guards, Artest can guard the two, Odom the three just fine.
    YET JACKSON NEVER DOES IT EXCEPT VERY FEW TIMES DURING CRUNCH!
    Yes, it doesn’t COMPLETELY compare to the situation since Wade and Lebron are better passers than Kobe, but the triangle also takes away a lot of passing woes so it’s closer than you want to admit.
    And once again, they said this on the record, unless you can cite something for me, before the season truly began, when everyone still though Lebron was going to be willing to play point. Which, you know, he’s not. He just wants to play point forward. That’s fine, but that means you have to move two players out of position instead of just one. It sucks.
    I also want to differentiate that your argument isn’t as bad as NBKs: You want Miller to walk up the ball and give it to Lebron/Wade. NBK originally wanted Miller to play point before he changed it when he realized he was balls-off-wall wrong. I’m FINE with Miller bringing it up but… I just don’t GET it. Why? Lebron and Wade are better ball handlers and better creators. Miller is great at running into position and shooting. Why would you want Miller bringing the ball up? You haven’t really answered that, I want that explanation.
    Chalmers and Arroyo can at least outspeed their opponents and create some mismatches by bringing it up. Miller really can’t, and will be exposed to presses in which case Lebron and Wade will have to bring it up anyway. Just so many issues with this. Everyone sees it but you.

  • http://sdfklfds.com Jukai

    Oh god, Mike Miller played on a team last year with no rebounders and passers, of course he was going to lead the league as a small forward playing out of position at the two spot in rebound and assist RATE (because he didn’t play much) when no one on his injury-filled team could pass or rebound. Of course you ALREADY KNEW THAT but hey, typing in stats is so much fun.
    I’m not saying Miller is a bad player, for chrissakes, I think he’s going to push the Heat into contender range.
    I just don’t want him to be used more than 20-25 minutes so that this chemistry the Heat have isn’t messed up. I don’t want him in during crunch time if Miami needs a faster lineup, or a lineup that can break defenders off the dribble. He needs to be used situationally. That’s all.
    Perhaps Miller, as a two-three, should have chosen a team which didn’t have two future HOF two/threes on the team already if he wanted a bigger role.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Jukai your ignoring most everything being said by everyone and going on irrelevant tangents. Boone ever said he would be the PG. End of story. This started with a fact – miller will not take all of james jones’ minutes, he would also take minutes away from arroyo and chalmers as well. And then you and Bryan Crawford went nuts about him not being a pg. And now after all of the repetition your reverting back to that, look he will play the minutes, you don’t have to get it, and comparing this heat lineup of playmakers (wade, lebron, miller) to a scorer (Kobe), a scorer ball hog ball stopper (artest) and a pf/sf with a guard skill set means you probably never will. Let’s just keep in mind that the most similar lineup to this, playmaker-playmaker-playmaker is 2nd 3peat bulls that have already been discussed and that lineup started and was pretty successful. Oh yeah, and one of them couldn’t shoot at all.

  • http://sdfklfds.com Jukai

    ———————————————
    nbk Posted: Dec.7 at 12:24 pm
    He can run the “1″ in Miami’s offense, which is actually pass and run to the corner, or pass and create a shooting angle from a superstar double team. Defensively LeBron can guard PG’s, that’s not wher his issue wit the position lies (according to reports)
    ——————————————–
    So much fail. You either phrased what you wanted to say wrong or you withdrew what you meant once you realized how dumb you sounded, I’ve seen you do both.
    It’s all about playing position. You have this strange idea that positions no longer exist in the NBA, which is absurd. They don’t exist in rec league play, but they still exist in organized games. The Bulls played one guy SORT of out of position— they played a combo guard at the one spot. That’s fine. When the Heat play Wade-Lebron-Miller, unless Lebron goes to the one… WHICH HE HAS SAID HE WONT… they are playing two players out of position. Wade, who is a natural slashing two, going to the one spot… And Miller, who is a three, going to the two spot. That’s two out of player positions. I’m sure once Haslem comes back, Bosh slides to the five.
    This is the lineup that is 1-7 against teams with winning records.
    If the Heat beat Utah tomorrow, I suspect that Spoelstra will see this and try to not drastically alter the Heat lineup the way you keep saying he said he would do a month and a half ago. You keep talking about the five games as if they mean nothing but those five games have been the most dominant the Heat have looked for a stretch all season. Why ALTER that?
    Once again, I’m not saying there wont be crunch time situations when Wade/Lebron/Miller will be in… there will be. But without Lebron going to the one, they shouldn’t start off with this (they need the fire power off the bench anyway) and they shouldn’t play this lineup in crunch time everytime ANYWAY because there are just some situations where having Arroyo being able to break his defender or having Chalmers for iso defense is just more valuable.
    Sorry you disagree, but using stats that I’ve refuted several times and using a quote from longer than a month ago and ignoring a five game stretch where the Heat have looked their best just isn’t going to cut it.
    Kobe is more than a scorer. Kobe actually played more point in his career than Wade and Miller have. You were around for Kobe’s first few seasons, right? He wasn’t a GREAT point, but I’d say he’d be a better point than Mike f’ing Miller.
    Goodness me.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    And no I’m not saying he will or even necessarily should start. But he will see plenty of minutes, and will undoubtedly be on the end of game lineup. There is not one single advantage in arroyo that late in a game, and chalmers is solely a defensive asset against *some (not the elite) pg’s.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Jukai your absolute insistence that they have to play and guard certain positions is absurd. Just a general lack of a sense of how things work. In the NBA your position, even the positions in general are determined solely by the system in place. That’s on offense. On defense players match up according to their teams defensive philosophies and preordained assignments, this should be common knowledge. For instance do you even know what position Michael Jordan played in chicagos triangle offense? The position as you so passionelty defend is not as black and white as your treating it. And at the end of games lebron and wade take almost all offensive responsibility, a “fast” compared to Miami would have such a large size disadvantage it would be pointless. And if they face a late game situation against a top flight PG Miami will zone up, which is always more effective with size to clog lanes and contest jumpers. And will have a number of obvious advantages on offense

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Bringing up Kobe at the point in this situation is bat-sh*t crazy. But for entertainment purposes Wade played the majority at the one his rookie year, and took that team to the playoffs and won a round so as you like to say “fail” – anyway they will see floor time together, arroyo and chalmers will see a reduction in minutes, and the Heat will get better as a team.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    a “fast” lineup* is what that should say above, its regarding you saying miller will sit against “fast” lineups. Like Miami isn’t already the most athletic lineup in the league, with just 3 players.

  • CRUSTIFICATION IS NEAR !

    Miller or Kobe playin Point in Miami ? :-) gtfooh ! wow ! Look at (rawfi$h starting some ish & jumpin at the throat over some pointless BS point of view. This is all wrong. Yawn. Thats why im gonna shatter yer wee hearts with a wee conclusion. Miller is going to spot up for open treys once Wade or Bron break the D down. That’s it. The guy’s just commin off an injury, i feel he should play a nice role doin what he does best just bustin treys , hopefully gettin some boards but NOT bringin the ball up. + Miami are 3 games above the Bulls RECOGNISE !!!!!

  • CRUSTIFICATION IS UPON YOU !

    I would like to say . All Kobe fans doin Jemma Jamieson improv beat it to ”I like to stroke Black Mamba’s Black Mamba.com” Don’t try to tell anybody whats best for the Heat as youre so egotisticly ignorantly stupid , You Don’t Know.

  • http://sdfklfds.com Jukai

    Michael Jordan played the two in Chicago’s offense… I mean that’s ridiculous… the triangle is VERY modified and one can argue it changes the role of a point guard and center drastically, but it really does not alter the two-spot much at all, so that was such a horrendous example. Why did you even bring that up?
    Chalmers would be far better against elite points than Wade would. That’s not even a question. Wade is a help defender, but isolation D has been pretty disappointing this season. Mike Miller is a great player, a great shooter, but that’s what he is, a shooter. If Arroyo is hot, I’d let Arroyo stay in. If Chalmers is locking stuff down, I’d let Chalmers stay in.
    Hell, if James Jones is 5-5 from three and Mike Miller is 2-5 from the field, are you really going to have Mike Miller in the game over Jones at crunch?
    This is exactly how the Miami Heat are going to lose— by not treating its players, outside of Wade/Lebron/Bosh, as role player pieces who will play set minutes UNTIL crunch time, in which case they will be randomly chosen to step up. The Lakers do that. Lord knows the Bulls were in it, ask Kukoc and Rodman how many times each were benched and upset during key possessions.
    Treating Haslem as more than a low-minute role player already hurt the Heat enough. Unless Miller comes in obliterating teams (and I mean going beyond hitting spot up shots, I mean taking it inside and hitting Lebron/Wade for wide opens), he needs to be treated as he is.
    Your statements about Miller CLEARLY show you like the player and you’re letting your objectivity interfere with rational thought.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    HE actually played the 3 in their offense Jukai. And that came straight from phil jacksons mouth

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    And your insistance that me suggesting Miller will see a good portion of minutes is an example of me liking him is weird, and wrong. Miller is not just a “shooter” you can say that, but he isn’t. Pat Garrity was just a shooter, Mike Miller is a utility player, with the reputation as a shooter. You are write that there will definately be times, like if Carlos Arroyo is having the game of his life, that Miller will not play in crunch time, but that won’t happen often. Chalmers will not take minutes away from Miller this season, not matter how good of defense he plays in his 15 minutes of floor time, Jones after a 5-5 night from three, maybe…but spoelstra had the opportunity to use Jones at the end of a game earlier this year, and opted for Eddie House, so Miller will see the bulk of important minutes, because he is the better player, LeBron James and Dwyane Wade handle the ball anyway, there are no real PG duties to handle on that team. and once again, the heat will be better for it. end of story

  • http://dsajfklf.com Jukai

    ^^^
    So…. Spoelstra opted for a true point instead of a Two-Three-Three lineup during crunch time. Interesting. And telling. Glad you brought that up.
    Also, that Jordan thing was bull sh*t.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    jukai your ignorant, there is no reason for me to make that up. and eddie house isn’t a pg, he is just small. and btw, carlos arroyo is the only player on the heat that actually does play “pg,” when chalmers is in the game he doesn’t handle any pg responsibilities other then defending the opposing pg. well he was handling pg duties earlier this year, but he has had less and less responsibility game to game. if you watched the Utah game last night you should have noticed he only dribbled the ball up the court once, in all is minutes.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    oh and btw, calling eddie house a “true point” illustrates your lack of knowledge on the subject

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