Post Up: Heat Streak Clipped

Alright, Allen:
Magic, first of all, is the Greatest of All Times.
Now, when comparing to Bird, it is arguable that Bird is better. I have alluded to this before.
But, when looking at the athleticism variable, Earvin is better. Undeniably better. Magic had bigger hands. Magic was bigger, stronger, quicker, more multifaceted. Magic is a better leader. (extremely important) The fact that he was able to do what he has done at the guard position literally changed the game as we know it.
An argument also can be made that if Magic does not play with other dominant scorers in his career, he would have as many or more points than Bird for his career. Had Magic been a four, his rebounding averages go up.
Magic is the better ball handler. He is better off the dribble. We have never seen anything like Earvin with the basketball. Not Penny, not The King. Not anyone.
Bird… one can argue that McAdoo is similar. Even though…
The only real thing Bird has on Magic is the shooting. And, that is big.

JTaylor: I think Walton may have been RIGHT outside of the top-5. Normally I’d say in the top-5 because of Shaq’s lack of dominance, but like, I can’t believe Shaq is still in the league, and CONTRIBUTING. We really don’t give it to Shaq, dude’s work ethic was supposed to out him from the league at 33, but he’s 38 and still going. That’s amazing, regardless if his numbers are pedestrian.
You gotta look at how insane Walton’s championship was… They went up against a PRIME Dr. J, a prime George McGinnis, a prime World B. Free, a prime Daryl Dawkins… and Joe Bryant to boot (he gave birth to Kobe, so he should be something, right?). Portland’s team had Maurice Lucas, who was pretty good… then Lionel Hollins, then Bob Gross, then Larry Steele… this was a really bad team. Second worst team to ever win a championship, WORST team post-merger. They won because Walton was the main focus on offense, he passed in both the full court and half-court, AND was the anchor on defense. He controlled all three major facets of the game. His finals stats were mind-boggling: 18.7 points on 54% shooting, 19 rebounds, 5.2 assists, and 4 blocks a game! And in an age where it was harder to get assists rewarded to you, we’re talking doing everything. Dude was nuts.
Alas, this was reallllly the only time we ever saw him. Who knows, I mean, with only one and a half years of injury free basketball, who knows if his performance was just a fluke?

Scottie Pippen would have matched up perfectly against Lebron. But like, if we’re talking 5 on 5 basketball, Lebron brings way more to the table. Scottie’s offensive output is pretty overrated.
@Philo: Bob McAdoo played a thousand percent different from Bird. You sure you ain’t thinking of someone else?

First
How the hell is Magic a better leader?
Second, you can’t say “if Magic was a four his rebounding averages would have been higher.”
He was freaking big enough to play four. He played the freaking point. He was a point. And he averaged fewere rebounds than Bird, just like bird averaged fewer assists than Magic. If Bird was asked to orchestrate the offense instead of putting up point, he could have averaged more assists. (See how easy it is to do that?)
Better off the dribble? Doing what?
Come one, Magic was a cool ball handler, but it wasn’t like he was out of this world. He got the job done.
Bird played with dominant rebounders and still rebounding. Bird played with one of the most gifted offensive power forwards off all-time and still got his points.
Y’all are making crazy excuses.
Every area Magic has a disadvantage is excused because he was playing the point. But then y’all turn around and tout the areas where he should have better stats because he was in fact playing the point.
Like I said up top.
Bird superior scorer, period. Bird near equal as a passer. Bird superior rebounder. Bird equal as a defender, and possibly superior. ( I don’t completely trust those all defense nods.)
Magic won more rings, and won the head to head matchhup. But Bird had a tougher conference and slightly less talent overall than Magic.
Bird wins.

What about defensive rating allen? Or Defensive win shares? because bird is heads and tails superior to magic in both. That’s one thing I have always said of the two, Bird was a better defender

Jukai
Was Walton the anchor of defense, or Lucas. I have Lucas as the anchor as far as the heavy lifting, while Walton patrolled the weakside getting blocks. Maybe I’m wrong though.
Walton might be most gifted passer in the pivot ever. The way he started the fast break gave his team like 7-10 extra points a game. And, in the halfcourt, he knew how to handle double teams.
Dude was nice, but, we have to acknowledge his stats from that year were not overwhelming. Yes, the 14 boards and 3 blocks were nice, but both of those numbers were not anomalies for that time. And he only got 18 points on 53 percent shooting. And no, stats aren’t everything, but that must be acknowledged. And you can’t just throw Lucas out there, you ahve to acknowledge that he was already an established big man in the league and that he dropped 20 and 11.
I think Walton’s dominance at UCLA ups his legend more than his actual play in the NBA. His potential was off the charts, but his actual play never reached that potential.

BC: That tattoo set manking back at least a few centuries. Isn’t it a big fail for a mental institution that a patient gets out and tattooes an ice cream cone on his FACE? Weren’t they supposed to fix him?

NBK
How are those stats created? the defensive ones. Just by watching the games, I would say that neither of them was a huge liabilty and neither of them was a stopper. I mean, I told you abou the quote the other day Jordan had about Bird and Magic and defense.
Bird himself even scoffed at defense. But, I think we all know how he ended up on those all-defense teams.
the Kobe syndrome.

JTaylor: Do you mean see them live or see them in general? I’ve seen them all… they’re on NBA Hardwood classics all the time, it’s not like the footage is lost. A lot of them were even on youtube! If I remember correctly, Walton’s best games were games 3 and games 6, check those out to see Walton just dominate in every single area of the game.
Also, Dr. J was amazing in the ABA but he wasn’t a slouch in those finals either. Dude put up something like 30-7-5 with two blocks a game.

Bird was a slow white simpleton. ……….. Anglos……

yeah the all defensive nods especially in the 80′s are kind of mehh dumb, shouldn’t have really used that, but regarding the calculations i pulled this straight from basketball-reference – Crediting Defensive Win Shares to Players

A. 1973-74 to present NBA

Crediting Defensive Win Shares to players is based on Dean Oliver’s Defensive Rating. Defensive Rating is an estimate of the player’s points allowed per 100 defensive possessions (please see Oliver’s book for further details). Here is a description of the process (once again using LeBron James in 2008-09 as an example):

Calculate the Defensive Rating for each player. James’s Defensive Rating in 2008-09 was 99.1.
Calculate marginal defense for each player. Marginal defense is equal to (player minutes played / team minutes played) * (team defensive possessions) * (1.08 * (league points per possession) – ((Defensive Rating) / 100)). For James this is (3054 / 19780) * 7341 * ((1.08 * 1.083) – (99.1 / 100)) = 202.5. Note that this formula may produce a negative result for some players.
Calculate marginal points per win. Marginal points per win reduces to 0.32 * (league points per game) * ((team pace) / (league pace)). For the 2008-09 Cavaliers this is 0.32 * 100.0 * (88.7 / 91.7) = 30.95.
Credit Defensive Win Shares to the players. Defensive Win Shares are credited using the following formula: (marginal defense) / (marginal points per win). James gets credit for 202.5 / 30.95 = 6.54 Defensive Win Shares. – confused yet?

Jukai, I mean see them in general. I’ve seen quite a few 80s and 90s games and even some 60s games but I’m itching to watch some 70s. I watch Hardwood classic every now and then but they tend to be misers. Is there a channel on youtube where you saw those games?

Allen:
Magic also was the better defender. He may have looked suspect in that area, and he was. But, he is guarding perimeter guys, no? Bird is guarding guys in the paint. Anyway…
And, Bird DID orchestrate the offense.
Magic is better off the dribble for obvious reasons, man. Are you kidding me? How does he get into the paint from the perimeter?
I agree with you about Bird playing with all kinds of gifted people, and still getting his. That is also what made Magic better. Magic made those guys look like they were better than they are… while getting his. A leadership quality that was better than Bird’s.

Hakeem put up three blocks a game on multiple occasions. When I said “norm” I didn’t mean scrubs did it, I meant shot blockers did it. And those blocks are normal for shot blockers back in the day.
And Walton averaged 18 and 14.
That’s what Dwight Howard averages.
I need 20 points from a big man from a big man who is the focus of the offense. And he took 14 shots to get 18 points!
And shot sub 60 percent from the free throw line!
Come on, this is crazy.
Shaq put up better numbers than that as a rookie. Just saying.
If that’s the apex of his career, well he ain’t on the same level as the players I named, I don’t care what he won.

Allenp: I mean, Olajuwon was better than Walton, no matter how high Walton’s ceiling was. I already mentioned that Shaq’s career was better. And while we’re on a prime discussion, prime shaq and prime olajuwon were better! So I dunno why yer bringing those guys up.
Also, Shaq’s rookie season was his best season for rebounds and his best season for blocks, and then Shaq went downhill from there, so I dunno why yer bringing that up.
I’m talking about Moses Malone and Robinson and Ewing. Moses Malone had the rebound numbers but wasn’t anywhere near Walton in terms of defense, and his passing wasn’t there. He also played about seven minutes longer a game to get those stats, and played for a far worse team during his ‘stat’ days than Walton, who had to share points with his team. Patrick Ewing’s prime was sort of two fold: at one point, he was a great shot blocker and shooting but didn’t have the rebound and passing numbers, and the next phase he had the rebounds and passing but his shooting and blocking wasn’t there.
So that brings me to Robinson. Dude’s a statistical freak. It’s hard to make a debate for Robinson. I’ll do it if I have to.

And to compare David Robinson to Walton is just ridiculously disrespectful to Robinson.
Dude was flat out better in every what except passing. Every other way, he was better.

Allen:
Not entirely correct. Magic did have moves off the dribble. He would even occasionally cross up people. He was “herky jerky”, and he found his way to the paint other than the way you described. I think you know that, though.
And, I am not trying to excuse Magic and the “quick guards”. It is just a fact. He made up for his lateral deficiencies by working the passing lanes, and helping out. (Bird is a better help defender)
Also, I thought “creating for others” IS orchestrating an offense. I could be wrong. Maybe not “THE offense”, but, Bird did orchestrate offense effectively when he did “create” for others.
And, Bird also got touches on the perimeter as well as in the paint. This is true.
Magic did dominate the ball. What is wrong with that? He was a point guard, no?

Allen: I’m arguing purely based on their primes here buddy. Careerwise, Walton is way down on the list because he played for two and half years, as far as I’m concerned.
Prime, Bill Walton was simply better than Moses Malone. You’re docking Bill Walton pretty heavily for two points a game…
I think you just have this set value for centers and Walton doesn’t fulfill those roles because he’s not a scorer type. Walton passed. He took 14 shots because he wanted to get his team involved, and yeah, no one else was good on that team but that’s what Walton did. Walton didn’t just create on the break through outlets, he’d literally call for the ball and find cutters or pass to wide open shooters. This was his game. He’d pass up working in the post so that he could find guys and get them involved in the offense.
If you need a center to take more than 14 shots, I’m not sure what to say to that. I don’t fit in that mold.
So, my statement still stands, prime walton > prime moses malone.
Of course, career wise it would be insane for me to say Walton was better.

Ok, different strokes for different folks. Selah

even if your using “best seasons” since Walton only played 2 1/2, Moses Malone’s best season(s) make Bill Walton look worse. 24, 15 and 2 in 37 minutes in 82 for Malone vs `18, 14 and 3 in 35 minutes in 77 for Walton.

This has gotta be one of the Posts Ups with the fewest amount of comments actual being related to the previous night’s games.

As for the David Robinson comparison, that’s a tough one to argue. Robinson was a statistical masterpiece: he didn’t have the rebound or passing numbers that Walton had (he was NOT a better rebounder than Walton, that is for sure) but he was a better defender with more blocks and a much better scorer. And he did it all in reasonable minutes, unlike Malone who would play 40+ minutes to get his statline. Robinson was great, he really was.
But like you said, there is so much more in basketball than stats. And Robinson lacked a lot.
He was a subpar leader at best. He tried the whole “lead silently by example” routine to a T, and it often backfired (Dennis Rodman anyone?). Robinson also backed off in the clutch faster than Lebron can back off of a controversial statement, while Walton manned up in the clutch whenever he could. He was both the team’s emotional leader and on-court play caller, as many of Walton’s iconic images were of him waiving his hands in the air to call out plays, or stopping by someone during a free-throw to tell him something.
Walton also provided many things that don’t show up in a stat-sheet: full-court lobs to start a break, picks all-over the court, great spacing and intelligent on-court decisions. Outside of his great post defense, Robinson didn’t bring much to the table that wouldn’t show up on a stat sheet. And I know he didn’t have the talent, but I’d be remiss to mention the fact that Robinson never won anything until Duncan came over and took over the alpha-dog responsibilities of actually being the leader of the team. Robinson couldn’t, even in his heyday. And yeah, his teams were bad, but then again, so was Walton’s championship team.

Allen Ray is light years better than Reggie. It’s not even close. Also Prime T-mac > Lebron.

Jukai, merci beaucoup.