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Monday, January 10th, 2011 at 8:50 am  |  220 responses

Post Up: Beast Mode

LeBron channels his inner-football star, drops 44 in win.

by Adam Figman | @afigman

Toronto 118, Sacramento 112

The day’s early game was a close one, as these two went into the final quarter all tied up. The Raps showed some strong play during the stretch, though, and bursted ahead in the last few minutes to grab and hold onto the lead. Andrea Bargnani and the steadily-improving DeMar DeRozan combined for 58 points for Toronto, who are now 13-24 and have impressively won two of, um, three. The Kings dropped their 10th straight road game with the L.

L.A. Clippers 105, Golden State 91

I’d imagine this matchup should be the most exciting/watchable game between two subpar teams, right? The Clips, with their high-flying rookie and young guns, and the Warriors, with their uptempo style and lack of D. Well, it wasn’t, though we still had Blake Griffin (23 points, 12 rebounds) pulling down highlight-worthy rebounds and a few alley-oops, naturally. The Clippers did take down the Warriors, winning relatively easily behind strong outings from Griffin, Eric Gordon (25 points) and DeAndre Jordan (9 points, 13 rebounds, 3 blocks). LAC hosts LeBron and friends on Wednesday.

San Antonio 94, Minnesota 91

After losses to the Knicks and the Celtics, and a close win against Indiana, it seems safe to assume the Spurs wanted a nice, easy victory at home against the visiting Timberwolves. Well, that’s too bad. The TWolves gave the Spurs a hell of a scare, but hung on after Manu Ginobili scored 14 of his 21 points in the second quarter. Despite the W, something tells me Coach Pop wasn’t too satisfied after this one. Kevin Love provided his usual beasting with 18 points and 17 boards, while Darko Milicic put up an 11 and 10 double-double for Minny.

Phoenix 108, Cleveland 100

During the same night we learned Anderson Varejao would be out for the season, the bad news kept coming for the Cavs when they were shut down by the Suns on the road. Steve Nash scored 20 and dished 17 assists, and Jared Dudley came off the bench, providing energy and an even more valuable 21 points to spark the victory. Manny Harris led Cleveland with 27 points, and JJ Hickson and Antawn Jamison each dropped 23.

New Orleans 96, Denver 87

From the sound of things (read: the sound of me reading tweets aloud, to myself), the Nuggets were in the midst of ironing out a Carmelo Anthony trade literally in the middle of this contest. Which, naturally, would make it pretty difficult to focus for everyone involved, mainly the players. At least it seemed like it, as the Nuggets fell to the Hornets at home and Melo scored a measly 8 points. Chris Paul dropped 20 and dished 6, while Emeka Okafor went for 19 and 13 in the win. Still no word on whether or not Melo goes or stays, but one thing’s for sure: If he is indeed staying, Denver’s front office is gonna want him to get it together. And if New Jersey is to trade for him, well, 8 points in a game ain’t gonna cut it.

Miami 107, Portland 100

The Heat will probably need guys beyond their Big Three to step up if they’re to win games—or entire rounds—in the Playoffs. But they didn’t last night. LeBron James (44 points), Dwyane Wade (34) and Chris Bosh (18) combined for 96 of Miami’s 107 points, which was all they needed to take this one in overtime. Respect to the Blazers for putting up a hell of a fight, and they were ahead late in regulation and almost did pull it off, but when LeBron—influenced by Marshawn, Lynch, perhaps—enters the beast mode he hit yesterday, you aren’t stopping this dude. A couple of threes and a couple of free throws in extra time sealed the game, and the Heat have now won 21 of their last 22.

L.A. Lakers 109, New York 87

The Knicks will get their share of wins, but against teams that can body them down-low, they have and will continue to struggle. In front of dozens of celebrities, the Lakers straight bullied NY, dominating the paint and cruising to their seventh straight victory. Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol combined for 47, while Amar’e Stoudemire led the Knicks with 23. NYK’s road trip continues tomorrow night in Portland.

Actual Stats: LeBron: 44 points, 13 rebounds, 6 dimes, 2 steals.

Moment of the Night: Seriously though: Let Shannon shoot.

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  • Scott

    I enjoyed watching LeBron just rip out Portland’s beating heart last nite. Good times.

  • http://www.facebook.com/joe.l.brewer3 BlackPhantom

    Great Night For LeBron. Dang Shannon, that shot was in Raymond’s Grill piece. Good win by my Lakers

  • Mamba

    Good win for us last night against the Knicks, holding them well under thier average of 107 pts/gm. If our bigs continue to play the way they did last night for the rest of the season and playoffs, 3peat for sure. I was happy to see Ron-Ron go into Thug mode last night. Keep it up Ron!

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    *lays out cup*
    so i can catch some of the Haterade that will overflow in this comment section.

  • Mamba

    The Heat are a good reg season team, but come playoffs against a good team with depth in a series, their weak bench will be exposed as wellas coaching.

    I have Boston coming out of the East and LA out the West for the 3rd and deciding series of the new age Lakers/Celts Finals.

    Kobe will win his 6th ring and finish the season 6th all-time in scoring.

  • riggs

    kobe shouldve been thrown out of that game early. if youre going to make a new rule about technicals either enforce it the whole way through or dont enforce it at all. its bullsh*t.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    The Heat are still playing without their 4th and 5th best players.

  • http://www.facebook.com/joe.l.brewer3 BlackPhantom

    you mean Mike Miller and Udonis Haslem, Eboy?

  • MUBWAR

    I was so pissed we were gonna lose with 1 and half minutes left and the Heat down by 7. Went for piss, came back and Lebron is tying the game with FT. This team is strong, fast, fierce and most of all clutch. I taught this was gonna be the year of a tryout for the championship. But now I believe these 3 will destroy any opponents on their way to the 2011 NBA Championships. Now the question remains, who will be the Bill Russell’s NBA Finals MVP?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Mubwar, you’re jumping ahead (like the idiot a few spots above you). The Heat have a lot of work to do to be a championship team. Right now, they’re playing great ball but they STILL need to address a few issues and if they can nail those down, then yes, they may be looked upon (with people with actual basketball knowledge) as a title favorite. Winning these road games are impressive, regardless of the score, but they need to get back to dominating wins instead of grinding games to overtime. They SHOULD be able to get one on Wednesday against the Clips.

  • MUBWAR

    Eboy, I actually prefer grinding out games. Especially he ones we had no business winning.ex last night Portland and last game against the bucks. Those games really showed how the Heat are never outta of games no matter how horrible their offense is. Man this is gonna a special year.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Mubwar, that’s all well and good against elite teams (or against occasional lesser opponents)but they grinded two games in a row against two teams they probably should have put away earlier. The crowds in Milwaukee and Portland and strong too, so I get the home team getting a boost.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    It’s hard to focus on Basketball considering Aaron Rodgers just took a big sh*t on my heart last night but LeBron was amazing! I LOVED it when he walked towards the Blazers fans after he made that 2nd 3 in OT and he was like: bring on the boos b*tch*es. So awesome. I LOVE (again) what LeBron is doing right now, he’s just in F everybody mode, going on the road, ripping everyone’s heart out.

  • Mohamed

    Can’t stand James. But goodness was that a great performance. I mean, i would live with lebron making jumpshots too, but that very last trey…straight sucked the life outta Portland. Hell of a game. And i agree with Mamba assessment there. It’s gonna be abother Boston/ LA Finals series this year. Only thing is that with Perkins expected to be back and healthy soon, I don’t see a clear favorite here. One thing’s for sure. There will be a game 7! (One can hope!)

  • MUBWAR

    Another Green and Gold match up at the Finals will be disgusting. The same 2 franchises are meeting at the Finals like they had a rental on it or something. Let’s give others a chance now. I’ll say Heat vs Spurs at the Finals and Lebron getting his revenge on the slap in the face duncan gave him back in ’07

  • http://www.slamonline.com KulchaKris

    This may already have been pointed out in this forum, but JVG’s prediction of a 72-win Heat season is not as ridiculous as some (i.e. me) once believed it to be. Hindsight is 50 – 50 (Spurrier!!), but let’s say the Heat went 14-3 in their first 17 games (instead of 9-8), and we would be looking at something close to 72 wins…..without Haslem and Miller for the majority of that stretch.

  • T-Money

    E: Whether they’re the favorite or not is kinda irrelevant to me. They’re a legit contender, that’s for sure. They’ve shown that they can play big (LA), small (last night at the end with Bron at center), fast (NYK).. and most of all, they’ve show that they can play slow, halfcourt offense, something that was vastly underestimated by experts.

  • T-Money

    Now, two things worry me: 1- Spo loves Joel. He’s supposed to be a situational player, not a rotation guy. I have no issues with him playing 30 mins vs PHX, NYK and GS but that’s it. We were terrible with him trying to box out Przybilla, the man played 25 mins and had 0 pts, 0 rbs, 0 assts, 0 blks, 0 stls. Advanced stats and correct rotations be damned, that’s garbage! 2- Just play Mike Miller, no need to overthink this. He’s the 4th best player on the team. Play him. A lot.

  • Son of Shawn

    I´m hoping that when the East Semis the fab four (Boston, Heat, Magic and Bulls) could be injury free, that would be terrific

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    3 guys responsible for 90% of the team’s scoring… I’m going to love to see that strategy come Playoff time.

  • T-Money

    BC: if you want to look at one game and throw a witty one-line, sure. if you’re looking at the season’s average, it’s 67%.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    This coming from the same guy that was claiming the Heat “Failed” in their approach to the game. In November. And happily promoted it as if it had some credence. That record is tired, Miley Cyrus.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    I guess 67% isn’t too bad, huh? Definitely better than 90%, I suppose. SMH…
    Having 3 players responsible for the bulk of the scoring load is failing, IMO.
    Yeah, it looks good now because they’re winning, but the Playoffs are a different animal and coming from the 2 people who aren’t complete idiots in here compared to most, I’m saddened at your responses.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    You know what, let me play Bron’s game for a minute. If the Bulls can’t get any contribution from the 2 spot, their playoff run will be over in the first round.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    The first round they’ll get past. But they won’t get past the 2nd round for sure without some production from the SG spot.
    And that’s such lame logic considering that they actually get production from more than just Rose and Boozer.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    You know what, I can’t do stupidity today. I forgot that only Heat fans and LBJ bandwagoners can only raise legitimate questions about Miami in here.
    Anyone outside of that is just hating. You guys have fun…

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    Ahhh. And the cup floweth over.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Lame logic? Coming from you, is that supposed to be an insult? Please, bro. You’ve made an a*s of yourself around here for the longest by promoting your “just cause” of trying to speak about the Heat as if they were the Bobcats and how they are embarrassing the game. The day any three guys on the Bulls squad could put together 97 points in one game together is the day I ki*l myself on the internet wearing a Joakim Noah jersey to add insult to my own demise.

  • http://sjfklfsl.com Jukai

    Bryan: If the Bulls get matched with the Knicks come playoff time, I can see an upset. Other than that, they’ll squeak by.
    I gotta agree with Z’s assessments here. I don’t mind Miami’s Big 3 scoring 90% of the points. Really, it’s Lebron/Wade/Bosh. I know you’re not going to win a series like that, but I bet you can win at least two games in the playoffs like that. If the team shows up 30% of the time, they will win a series.
    But the other stuff worries me.
    Mike Miller should be getting playing time. And not this bizarro let’s-put-Bosh-and-no-one-else playing time where he splits with James Jones. I mean Jones-is-on-the-bench-Lebron-is-passing playing time. It’s getting frustrating and worrisome.
    Joel Anthony needs to sit DOWN. Three headed center my a. Spo loves Anthony for whatever reason, dislikes Dampier, and it just mystifies me. This could lead to problems.
    Also, I’m STILL worried about Haslem/Bosh playing together once Haslem comes back. Haslem would be PERFECT taking Howard’s minutes and NOTHING else (maybe a few more minutes of rest for Bosh!).
    I still think Spo is a really, really bad coach and I’m looking forward to him messing up the rotation hardcore.

  • http://sjfklfsl.com Jukai

    And what the hell has happened to the Spurs? I don’t get it. Suddenly they can’t play defense. What are teams doing differently the last five games?

  • http://brimartin13@gmail.com Brion

    Love the Lynch reference, Go Hawks!

  • http://www.dimemag.com Royal

    Respect to LeBron……I only watched the 4th quarter and OT but dude put in a games load of work in those two periods alone. Him taunting the crowd was cold-blooded! The Lakers played well yesterday as well, Andrew Bynum worked Amare… The Knickerbockers are not going to make it far in the playoffs if they don’t have a legit post defender. If the Lakers are going to three peat, they are going to need Bynum being a legit post threat so he can take pressure away from Pau.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Jukai, in the Heat’s most hyped game of the Big Three’s first season, Spo made every right call and defensive substitution. Unless you slept all day on Christmas, you shouldn’t have missed that. I think Spo is still making minor mistakes and not cutting minutes at their optimal rate. But, if you can remember when the Heat were the abysmal team everyone had hoped for at 9-8….their offense was pretty putrid (Like Derrick Rose’s ability to be clutch in the last seconds of a big game). Weeks later, that isn’t an issue anymore. Why? Speak about the team meeting, speak about whatever you’d like, but Spo loosened the reigns, bought in and the results are unarguable. The Heat’s approach (on the inside) is to gauge the teams performance every 10 games and see what needs to be tweeked. There’s still plenty of time to correct the minor shortcomings the rotation supplies.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    And for those that will try and suckle at me teet, my Rose comment was sarcastic to get a rise out of the resident Heat Hater par excellence.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Like LeBron, I’ve accepted this villain role and my position on them won’t change.
    But since my question is obviously me “hating” and not rooted in any sort of actual basketball logic in reference to the regular season and the Playoffs and the strategical differences inherent in both, along with the DANGER of riding 3 guys to top seeding in the regular season and then expecting that same style of play to deliver a championship in the postseason, then there is nothing more that needs to be said from me in here. So I’m out…
    I’ll let you guys gush and fawn now. Far be it for me to disturb that daily session.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Well, the Cavs were able to ride ONE guy to the top seeding in the regular season a couple of times, so I can, by easy arithmetic, say that three times the effort is better than a solo act, but again, I’m not sure of Illinois logic in this day and age.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    @Eboy, good thing you said that after your Drose comment because I was seriously thinking ‘How many times do I need to defend a dude who’s been really clutch and a top 3 MVP all season.’

  • http://sjfklfsl.com Jukai

    Eboy: That makes zero sense. The offense was putrid and things were falling apart… WHY WAS THAT? Why did it take 17 games and things MAGICALLY fixed?
    The meeting was “players only” and the only meeting Spo had was with Lebron.
    I have about five or so theories on why things got better, and only one of them involves Spoelstra fixing things himself.
    Sorry, it just doesn’t make sense to get killed 17 games then suddenly vary up the offense and sure up your rotations. It happened very quickly. Ya dig?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    riding 3 guys is dangerous, isn’t that what the C’s did? That worked out pretty well :P

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    You’re incorrect, Jukai. It’s fine though. November 2010 is going to be a tiny pebble on the road to domination that will end sometime in 2015. I’ll let everyone else that loves to live in the past dwell on, and mastur*ate with, those particular boxscores and SLAM articles that painted them in an irreversible light after 17 games. Join me in enjoying what they are currently doing and don’t temper your ability to be one of the smartest cats on here by worrying that they have “holes” that can’t be fixed. Everything you mentioned is fixable. There aren’t “glaring” holes.

  • T-Money

    Complaining about balanced scoring when your two superstars give you 80 points on 60%+ shooting is…

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    domination until 2015? I think the Heat will be super dominant for 3 years maybe but people forget that Wade will be 33 and as much as I love dwade his skills aren’t as good as Kobe’s too be an elite player even in his 30′s once his speed and jumping ability will be gone, but I can’t look into the future, maybe he’s an exception.

  • http://screwjams.tumblr.com cramzy

    look, when a team has won 21 OF 22..you gotta let some ish slide or you’ll be labeled a hater. Its like when Skip Bayless dogged Blake Griffin last week. The man is putting up 21 and 12 as a rookie! Let some ish slide for now. If Blake gets a few years in, doesn’t improve and the clippers still suck, then take some shots. But right now, just enjoy beast mode basketball. The heat (or Lebron and Dwade) are beasting! They’re getting it done. Enjoy it. Why rip them up for things they haven’t even had the opportunity to fail at? The playoffs are months away.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I’m anticipating losing a year to a lockout.

  • http://sjfklfsl.com Jukai

    Eboy: they are VERY easy fixes. -VERY- easy. Bench James Jones in lesser games and give the minutes to Miller. Play Dampier more. Give Haslem all of Howard’s minutes and not a second more.
    See, EASY Fix!
    I just don’t think Spo will do it.
    You’re missing my point about the 9-8 start. It fixed QUICKLY. It fixed seemingly RANDOMLY. I mean, do I have to come out and say it?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    It wasn’t random, Jukai. I know what you’re getting at. You can bet your a*s that Juwan Howard never sees a Heat jersey on his body again if Haslem makes a recovery, so that’s a fix. Eventually, once healthy, Miller will have most of Jones minutes. I think Jones will still see 6-8 minutes a game, depending on the need to spread out certain defenses, but his contribution will be minimal once April rolls around. The only issue is the center spot rotation. I think Z keeps the starting spot ’cause it’s a comfort fit for Bron on the pick and pop. Anthony needs to have his minutes tempered. Dampier should see more time against bulky frontlines. There’s no doubt there.

  • http://www.twitter.com/AllBall247 AllBall247

    Although I hate Bron, I was loving him last night. Not just the clutch 3′s & FT’s, what about the time out that he, not Spo called, to advance the ball past 1/2 court, or the jump in the passing lanes that forced Aldridge into a double dribble. Chris Paul took over in the 3rd Q of last nights game in DEN, and they were able to hold on for a good road win. Eboy, isn’t domination until 2015 a bit presumptious?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    AllBall, should I be timid in the face of the enemy?

  • http://sjfklfsl.com Jukai

    Z definitely keeps his spot. I was the first person here to say Z should be starting over Joel.
    Whatever, I guess I shouldn’t worry too much— the person who gave Spo the fixes the first time should provide them to Spo the second time around as well.

  • TrailBlazing&SportingLisbon

    well, Bron obviously stole the fu(king show but LaMarcus Aldridge just showed again why hes better than Bosh, downright dominated him..unfortunatly my Blazers could not find a 2nd scoring option..KEEP IT GOING LA, NICE GAME BATMANBATUM!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Lamarcus Aldridge would be a perennial All-Star if he played solid one on one defense. Bosh got worked on D, no doubt, but he also scored an incredibly efficient rate against LA. Lamarcus was getting nothing but high praise from the Heat’s broadcast team too.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    He did not prove he is better then bosh. He proved he could definitely hang, but they both were equally efficient. Lamarcus only won the rebounding battle, the rest of the superior stats were a product of having the offense run through him. Lets also add in that he was a game worst -9 while bosh was +14.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Bosh has evolved into the Heat’s most consistent shooter. Dude is wet almost every night. He also has made timely shots in the last two games late. Dude’s that spoke about him like he was Earl Barron incarnate need to be maimed of their basketball retention portion of their brains.

  • http://www.twitter.com/AllBall247 AllBall247

    Presumptiuos statements can make you look very smart, or very stupid. Aldridge is not better than Bosh, some one had to score for POR, & no one else was going to score consistently with Bron guarding Batum, and Wade actually playing hard on D against Wes Matthews. NBK – What is it with your fierce defense or Bosh? Your right this time, but you were like this with Amar’e, and his stellar play, regardless if its a result of ‘more shots, that’s all’ is still stellar. He has already proved himself a more viable no1 option, than Bosh was, although Bosh is a better fit in MIA.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I’m still not convinced that Amare wouldn’t have been the better fit in Miami although Bosh has begun to evolve nicely in his role. I guess the only issue would have been if Amare would have accepted being the third option on a title contender instead of the lead option on a playoff contender.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    I’m realistic, I said Bosh was better then Amar’e (which i still firmly believe), and I said Lamarcus Aldridge is not better then him. How is that a “fierce defense”?

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    How has he proved himself a more viable #1? because he is on a far far superior team in NY then Bosh ever was in Toronto? Because he is putting up more points then Bosh ever did? Because technically that’s true, but when you look at it from a pace/possession/efficiency standpoint Amar’e is having a worse season on a better team right now then Bosh did last year…..All of that, and we still haven’t even gotten around to defense

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Eboy – I just read a quote from a Phoenix Sun requesting anonymity that said Amar’e would be opposed to getting Melo in NY because he LOVES being “the guy” And then there was a quote from last night or a couple nights ago where Amar’e said he doesn’t think the Knicks need to make any changes. That doesn’t sound like someone who cares more about a title then his own personal success and stats.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    I think Bosh is def. a better fit than Amare, but lately I’ve been thinkin about K-Love insetad of Bosh too. Love is really really good, and even younger, he rebounds like no one else in the league, he can score alot, shoot threes. I know this is really off-topic, but is anyone else here rooting for Cam Newton and the Tigers?

  • Scott

    Not to change the subject but James still has a legit shot at getting MVP number three this summer.

  • TrailBlazing&SportingLisbon

    Bosh jumper is wet, no doubt, but he WAS DOMINATED BY LA, thats just a fact…and ask around the league if someone would trade LA for him and A BIG N O is the answer. @Eboy, hes not a bad defender, and covers the perimeter on switches like no big other than KG…on this trend of elite PF bad defenders like Bosh, Boozer, Amare, Kevin Love, Blake Griffin, etc, Aldridge is the best overall defensive player.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Bosh, Amare and Love are all mediocre defenders. That is one commonality they all have.

  • TrailBlazing&SportingLisbon

    @Jahmai, SUPERHIGHTEMPO OFFENSE, FUN TO WATCH, GO DUCKS! their unis rock too.

  • JTaylor21

    I’m not so sure about that. You know who those morons who vote for the award like to pick new players even when last year’s winner is playing just as well if not better. They would probably find a way to give it to KD even though Westbrook has been OKC’s MVP so far.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Uhm…..Trailblazing, I noticed Bosh getting J’s pretty much uncontested whenever he shot the ball (which wasn’t often). Also, if you are touting LA as a top flight help defender, then lost night must have been an anomoly. I’m not trying to be insulting, the Blazers played a hell of a game.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    @Scott, if he continues playing like he has been playing all of december and they keep winning, I think he should get MVP 3.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Trailblazing, I don’t know why you’re beaming so much over how your team’s first option “dominated” the opposing team’s third option.
    And I also don’t think he dominated him. Statistically, maybe, but hey, LeBron dominated the entire Rose Garden.

  • MUBWAR

    Bosh’s 7 years in Toronto: 21ppg, 9.6rpg, 2.2apg and a efficient 0.495 fg percentage.

    Amar’e 8 years with the suns: 19.8 ppg, 8.4 rpg and 1.1 apg … did I mention he was with Nash most of those years. Amar’e has nothing on Bosh. So let’s stop the nonsense.

  • Scott

    Amare doesn’t have Nash this year and he is having his best year yet.

  • Scott

    Amare doesn’t have Nash this year and he is having his best year yet.

  • DR. NICK

    HIII EVEERYBODDY!!!!!!!!

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    No Amar’e is not having his best season, not in any way. (.3 Points better then his best season, on 4 more shots a game is not better) (The career high in blocks is great, until you figure he is playing at the highest pace & minutes of his career, and has given up more monster games then any other big in the league)– (He is shooting the worst % he has shot since his second year) — (and he is rebounding right at his career average, even though everything about this season should have increased that number) but Nash was not the key to his success, that excuse is whack.

  • MUBWAR

    On a Team like the knicks, Earl boykins can average 26 points.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    no

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    comments like that prevent people from thinking subjectively. it doesn’t help, isn’t funny, and doesn’t prove a damn thing

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Derrick Rose, Carlos Boozer and Luol Deng score 62 percent of Chicago’s points.
    In case anybody was wondering.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    nbk – Because you were on here constantly arguing Bosh’s case over Amar’e. Also, the way you state your opinions as facts doesn’t make them so. I just checked Basketball Reference, and you are right, Amar’e has a superior roster to Bosh’s best ever season (47-35, 1st round exit). That’s about on pace for the Knicks this season. If you look at Bosh’s stats for that year 23,11, 2.5 and a block on 49% & 79% FT, & Bosh best ever year as a no1 option (Last year) 24, 11, 2.5 and a block on 52% & 80%, which ended in a 40-42 record and no play-offs, then compare with Amar’es averages during his teams most successful season 04-05, where PHO won 62 games, lost in the WCF, Amar’e put up 26, 9, 1.6, with a block & 1/2 & a steal on 56% & 73% FT, that is better than Bosh’s numbers on his most succesful team. If you look at Amar’e current numbers as the clear no1 for the 1st time 26, 9, 2 1/2 assists, a steal and 2.5 blocks on 51% 55% from 3(on limited shots) & 78% from FT, that beats Bosh best ever stat line. So looking at team success, Amar’e wins, looking at numbers, Amar’e wins.
    Mubwar – their actual career stats are Amar’e – 22,9,1 1/2, with a stl & 1 1/2 blocks on 54% FG, 76% FT. Bosh 20, 9, 2.2, with 0.7 stls, 0.8 blocks, on 49% FG, 80% FT. So not only did you post incorrect stats, but they don’t back up your argument. So career numbers Amar’e is superior also. Enough facts for you there nbk?

  • Scott

    Amare is not a great defender never has been or will be. Stoudemire has turned New York from a joke into a respectable team. Stoudemire has been clutch this season leading the league in scoring in the fourth period this year and has dismantled the likes of KG, Duncan and Howard this year. I have a hard time seeing Bosh having the same type of sucess in New York.

  • MUBWAR

    if you read correctly, my stats were without including this year stat

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    The Big Three for Boston scores abut 52 percent of the team’s points.
    LA’s big three gets 57 percent.
    Dallas’ big three gets 55.8 percent
    And San Antonio’s gets 47 percent.
    Miami’s percentage is clearly higher than any other contenders. Yet, a look at then numbers is illuminating.
    The Heat’s highest scorer is scorer more than any other high scorer on a contender, barely edging out Kobe. The Heat’s second scorer is outscoring every first option not named Kobe. Their third option is outscoring every second option not named Gasol.
    So, you could argue that the Heat’s offense is lopsided because it should be. And, there is no NBA team equipped to take away all three of the Big Three in a game. The best teams will hope to completely eliminate one of them, and limit another, while letting the third player do whatever he can do.
    Of the contenders, only Boston has that ability right now, and they showed it by limiting Wade and Bosh earlier this year. We shall see if Wade picks it up the next time they play.

  • MUBWAR

    At the End of the day Allball, Bosh will be playing for the 1st time till june while Amar’e will be on the couch thinking : maybe I need someone else to help me. Don’t a relentless scorer by the name of Melo is headed your way.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Once again AllBall the pace Amar’e plays at in NY (96.5)/ or Phoenix in 04-05 (95.7) vs Bosh in Tor (93.1), Amar’e's 19.2 shots per game vs Bosh’s 16.5. Bosh shot .4% lower, on a worse team, in less shots, at a slower pace. If all was even (use PER) Bosh is and has ALWAYS been superior (except this season, but the reasons should be obvious) There is not one logical way to say Amar’e is better then Bosh, unless you take raw statistics (ppg only) as your only barometer for who is better

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    How do you know that? Bosh and co could be out in the 2nd round if they play ORL/BOS. Also, if whether or not guys were playing meaningful games come June ever came into the equation, maybe Kobe would get some more love. He has been the best player playing meaningful games for the last 3 seasons.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    All great stats nbk, and good use of them. BUT PER takes into account that Bosh doesn’t shoot as much, takes into account pace of play etc, so what is the obvious reason?

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    So now Kobe deserves more love? As if a finals MVP on 35% shooting wasn’t enough? smh wow

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    No sh*t it takes into account all those things, that’s why i said use it. the obvious thing is that Amar’e has never in any way been better then Bosh, other then as a scorer, off of the pick and roll. (and team success, but I’m not one of those people that think a player is better just because he was fortunate enough to play on a better team)

  • Scott

    NBK do you think Bosh would being playing and handling the situation as well as Amare has thus far in New York?

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    By handling the situation what do you mean? Because he supposedly doesn’t want Melo, he thinks NY is just fine, so idk if he is handling it as well as all the NYK fans, amd Amar’e lovers think, unless ofcourse, your ok with consistently losing early in the playoffs and not really contending for anything. He loves being “the man” and in NY he is the ultimate center of attention. I think Bosh would be putting up similar numbers less points, probably like 24 and 11. I think Amar’e is far superior in the pick and roll, much more effective off of a PG. Their strengths are different, but I think it would be easier to build a winner around Bosh. Plus bosh is better on defense (not good by any stretch, but better then Amar’e).

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Shameless plug alert:
    I have posted a new piece called “Perception vs. Reality.” Feedback is appreciated, whether it is positive or negative.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Lets also keep in mind Bosh was higher on NYK’s free agent board, they just signed the first big name they could thinking that would help bring in LeBron. But its documented, they wanted Bosh more.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    Yeah, you said use it, but you said the reason Amar’e is leading Bosh in PER this year should be obvious?? Because he is playing better than Bosh maybe? Did you even read my comment properly?

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    What has Bosh being higher matter? Amar’e was All NBA last year. Bosh didn’t make any All NBA team.

  • Scott

    Amare doesn’t want Anthony in New York? You can’t build a championship team with Bosh as your best player. Bosh is in the perfect situation for him as far as playing for the title. However, the more I think about it your not building a championship team with Stoudemire as your alpha dog.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I always thought Bosh was better because both were effective scorers, Amare just scored in a more impressive way with fewer responsibilities besides scoring.
    And Bosh was a better defender and rebounder.
    Amare is taking a career high in shots, to average less than his career high in points. Granted, he doesn’t have STeve Nash, Joe Johnson, Qrich and Shawn Marion playing alongside him in New York, but it still must be mentioned.
    Amare isn’t doing anything better these days except being an example and leader. His rebounds should be up since he’s not sharing those duties with anyone who really boards, and his scoring is pretty much the same as it’s always been. He’s still not a good passer, still not a good individual defender. He’s helped more ont he weakside, but he showed flashes of that in Phoenix.
    If you believed Bosh was better last year, you should still believe it. If you believed Amare was better, you should still believe it.

  • T-Money

    AllBall247: It kinda matters that every GM with cap space wanted Bosh before Amar’e, no?

  • MUBWAR

    Hey allball, have you ever seen Amar’e with creativity finishing around the rim instead of looking for the easy dunk or passing ball. Bosh has a sweet J and if you bite the pump fake he can finish gorgeously around the rim with the left or the right hand. Ohh man, I can’t wait to see the big 3 when they come to Toronto.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Because Bosh is the 3rd option on his team, and PER does not account for not getting looks and touches when your on the court because there are 2 people better then you with the ball. How is that NOT obvious? gross, i read what you said, i just didn’t assume you didn’t think your question through.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    Yeah, but it’s not the be all and end all for the who is better debate. Amare getting voted in by coaches, GM’s etc for All NBA should be pretty telling also right?

  • Scott

    I’m sorry you live in Toronto. That franchise is just horrible.

  • TrailBlazing&SportingLisbon

    @Eboy, Bosh gets those long 2´s uncontested against almost every team, I didnt said he was a very good help defender, I said he defends the perimeter when needed better than any big other than KG..hes a decent defender, just that…@Enigmatic, still mad bout the Tyrus Thomas draft?! hahahha

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    So Amar’e having a higher PER than Bosh this year is irrelevant, but all the years Bosh had a higher PER than Amar’e is relevant. Glad we cleared that up. Also, were there this many people ready to jump in at Bosh defence last year? Were there this many MIA fans with a rebuttal last year? ‘Gross’.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Bosh being higher, means NYK literally thought/thinks Bosh is the better player. Are you serious with these questions?

  • TrailBlazing&SportingLisbon

    and im talkin bout Aldridge with E

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    What about Amare being All NBA last year? Bosh didn’t make it. So the majority of voters literally thought that Amar’e was superior. How do you know, without a doubt the Knicks thought that? The Rumour mill isn’t always truthful. MIA guys will believe what they want. The All NBA team is proof of consensus opinion by guys that KNOW a lot more about the L than you or I do.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    I’m nor a Miami fan, or a “Bosh fan.” I have been saying Bosh is better then Amar’e for years, I was firmly supporting trading Amar’e for Bosh when it was talked about in Phoenix. And Bosh having a better PER then Amar’e while he was “the man” is relevant, because Amar’e is “the man” and always has been (as a first option, nash was “the man” in phoenix, but not in the same sense of the word)

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    The coaches voted for Jason Kidd for all defense not too long ago and voted Kobe as all defense last year.
    All-NBA is cool, but it’s like the coaches poll in college football.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    I know what you meant, Trailblazing.
    Yeah, I was mad about that before. Cause Tyrus sucks.
    But I think I’m ok with Boozer…yeah, pretty sure I’m ok with Boozer and not having LA.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    All NBA hinges on team success. everyone knows that (every player on all 3, all-nba teams made the playoffs). plus its voted on by sports writers, not coaches.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    So a rumour that the Knicks had Bosh higher on there board, is more validating than Amare being voted All NBA, and Bosh not being voted all NBA? Good to know.

  • Scott

    Wait a minute some of the coaches don’t take these awards and rankings seriously?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Using previous years PER makes sense because they both occupied a fairly similar role on their teams. Both were the primary scorer, right? This year, Bosh is third.
    As a third option, he’s scoring more tham most second options on other contenders, but all people can say is that he sucks. It doesn’t make sense.
    Dude has a wet jumper. He can drive either direction. He operates fairly well with his back to the basket or on the face up. He has a turnaround and a hook. He uses an up and under.
    The biggest flaws are that he’s not rebounding like he should. He settles for the jumper too much instead of driving or rolling to the rim. And he needs to be more demanding of the ball when he has an advantage. Other than that, dude looks exactly the same to me.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    Ok, so your not a Miami fan, but you don’t really like Kobe, and you want Miami to do well. Not really neutral is it?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I have been a Bosh fan for a minute, but things got serious when he came out just dominating last year.
    I have said this before on these boards. During the summer, nobody really questioned whether Bosh was better than Amare. It was just a given. Now, Amare averages more points and boards, and poeple suddenly think he’s better.
    I’m surprised AllBall doesn’t see this given his arguments about CP3 and Dwill. Nothing has really changed about Bosh and Amare except for their roles on their teams.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    Both were Primary scorers, but if we are being honest, Nash was the ‘man’ on those teams, and more responsibility was placed on him. So the roles are not identical.
    I have never said he sucks, I mentioned earlier he is better than LaMarcus, I just mentioned that nbk defends him a lot, although he claims to be impartial. Amare can do the majority of those things right? Amare can finish better around the basket right?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    So, wait a minute…..if you are a neutral fan, but respect what Miami is doing with their team, you’re going out of your way to disrespect Kobe and the Lakers? Wow.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    Allen, I have never thought it was a given, especially when Amar’e was scoring 44 on LA in the play-offs, and Bosh was chilling. Also, when Amar’e was named All NBA, and Bosh was not. Your comparing it to D Will CP3? How so? Neither was injured last year? Also, Deron is averagin more points, but Paul leads him in EVERY OTHER STAT. Always has done. So its not that similar.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    My dog is named Kobe. so there goes that. I didn’t say I want Miami to do well, why are you just making sh*t up?

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    I said Kobe doesn’t need more praise. That is not disrespect. He is being touted as a top 10 player ever, second best sg of all time. He needs more praise then that????? because that’s what allball said, and i disagreed with.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    allball said he deserves more praise, not those other things.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    nbk – Your name was once a link to why Kobe isnt near Jordan, you mentioned earlier sarcastically, how Kobe doesnt need any more love. You are always posting comments that support Miami, not LAL. Eboy, surprising to see you side with nbk on this. Next you will be saying you love LA. nbk, why don’t we cut the bull. Who would you rather win the chip this year, if it had to be between LAL/MIA? Don’t even bother answering, because you won’t answer honestly.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    And I mentioned he needs more praise in relation to MUBWAR saying Bosh playing deeper in the play-offs than Amar’e means he’s better. How many debates have there been on here, that because Kobe has more rings it doesn’t mean he is a better player. THAT WAS ALL THAT WAS A REFERENCE TO.

  • T-Money

    For the record, I’ve been saying for years that Bosh is better than Amar’e. Only fact of the game where Amar’e got Bosh beat is dunking the ball hard. Also, Bosh works better in MIA for two reasons: 1- he’s willing to be the third wheel. not so sure about STAT. 2- neither are good at 1vs1 defense on the block but Bosh is willing to be active, disruptive and make the proper rotations.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    AllBall…..I’ve seen nbk post probably 5000 comments or more in his time on this website. I can not for the life of me, pinpoint ONE team that he rides with unconditionally. There’s a ton of other everyday commenters that I know their rooting interest from the moment they began posting and nbk is not one of those easily pinpointed guys. I would think that leaves him open to root openly for any particular player or team that he sees fit to.

  • T-Money

    in the end everybody wins. miami got their third option and new york got their star. amar’e is much more marketable and charismatic (let’s face it, cb is kind of a dork).

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    AllBall
    I’ve already discussed the stats issue, and I thought we came to an agreement on that with regards to Williams and Paul.
    Anyway, I value stats and all star berths and all nba.
    But, I also recognize that those things are influenced heavily by system, personnel and team success.
    So, when looking at their skillsets, Bosh did more better, so he was better. Bosh was always the superior rebounder, always the superior defender. They are about equal as a passers. Amare is the superior scorer, but Amare gets his buckets rolling on the pick and roll more, while Bosh settles for more jumpers. So, Amare is probably more efficient, except Amare sucks at making decisions when his first scoring option is removed, while Bosh is good at that. In addition, Bosh, is more effective back to the basket. They are about equal facing up.
    I dont know if Bosh would have killed LA, probably not. shooting jumpers wouldn’t put the same pressure on the Lakers defense, or on Gasol. But, I think Bosh would do a MUCH better job guarding Gasol one-on-one, which was one of the Suns biggest problems.
    Like I said, I saw Bosh as better last year, nothing has changed except I think Amare is more of a leader than I gave him credit for with the Suns.
    And Nash was the main when it came to praise, not criticism.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    Well in my limited time on the site (6-7 months) I have seen him side with Bron in Bron/Kobe debates, Bosh over everyone (joking, but you know what I mean), and say that Miami will be dominating the EC until 2015. That last one was earlier. I ran with this info, and if I made the wrong conclusions then that’s my bad, although for now I don’t think I did.
    Also, you are one of the least neutral guys on this site, which you will readily admit, so forgive me for believe that you siding with someone who is siding with one of your guys doesn’t mean much.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    so now saying Kobe should not be compared to michael jordan is hating? lol and i constantly just say what i think is logical, like for instance me repeatedly saying all last week to people jumping to conclusions about LA (you know because they kept underperforming) that i still have them steamrolling through the west and making the finals, but that must be hating since i didn’t say they would win right? I don’t have a preference as to who wins the championship, i just want to see a good competitive finals.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    Allen
    Definitely, we are on the same page with CP/DW, I think it’s just a style preference. I thought you were trying to get back into that debate by bringing those guys up? I agree, on Personal accomplishments and that they are affected by circumstance.
    For me, Amar’e is more effective, even if Bosh is more skilled, and Amar’e playing great as the 1st option on a play-off team (factoring in that its NY) is big imo. League wise, power wise Bosh role is more important, as MIA are legitimate contenders. Whilst I think Bosh is the better fit for them, I don’t think he would be as successful in NY.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    I have defended Bosh about 2 things. ANd have defended LeBron to people blatantly hating and overreacting. I actually have let my preferences be known on this site maybe twice, if I had to root for a team it would be Phoenix, because that’s where I am from. And my favorite player is Gilbert Arenas (and i in no way think he is the best, or near the best at even his position). I am not biased, maybe confrontational, maybe insulting when insulted, but never biased

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    Well, then that is my bad. I guess we just have differing opinions on Bosh/Amar’e. That we agree on, as I mentioned last week, the Lakers will be too big for the Spurs come the play-offs.
    Now your jumping to conclusions, as I can’t even remember you saying you didn’t think they would win. Now you have mentioned it I remember you stating the importance of Bynum, when others were trying to brush it off.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Nah, I wasn’t trying to debate that.
    What I was trying to say is that you and I have made up our minds about Paul and Deron, and unless there is a huge change in their play and abilities that isn’t related to some sort of outside influence, we aren’t changing our minds.
    Same for me with Bosh and Amare. They are playing the same, just in different situations. If Paul went to the Lakers and saw all of his stats drop considerably, I doubt you would think he stopped being the Paul he is today, right?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I thought you were a Phoenix guy, nbk, I couldn’t be sure though since you don’t parade it. You and Jukai have that in common,unlucky you (for being in the same fanbase as Jukai, that is.)

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I don’t tink Bosh could do what Amare has done for New York mainly because his style of play would not be as valuable. Pick and pop in that offense does not create the same opportunities as pick and roll.
    Does that mean pick and pop is automatically worse than pick and roll? Nah, particularly not if you’re playing another big man who likes to stay in the paint. But, when your team relies on sucking the defense in to get open threes, it makes a huge difference.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    I love New Orleans, and all David West does is p & p, so I have no preference. He doesn’t go near the basket unless its a post-up.
    That’s a good point, but if Paul went to LAL, would he have as small a role as Bosh does in MIA? Personally I don’t think so, and his assist numbers would be Rondo like. Also, LAL would (in my eyes) win the next 3 titles.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    haha that’s why i don’t parade it E. lmao

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    I’m a Bulls fan, in case y’all been wondering. I’m sure some of you have. LOL

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    Talking of Jukai, you still gonna shave your back when Demar make’s his first All-star team?

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    Enigmatic – Noooo, I thought you were a Celts guy?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I swore Enigster was a Laker fan.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    AllBall you realize LA runs a triangle right? There is no way to get Rondo-esque assist numbers in that offense. Paul’s numbers would probably fall at like 15 and 10 ish

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    I actually thought about that right after I said it. He isn’t quite at 10APG a game right now, but he would be with LAL. I think he would score at about 12-13 a game, but everyone else would see a slight rise. His already blistering % would go up also.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    agreed, that’s how i would see it panning out

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    And if that happened, nobody would think “Man, Dwil is so much better than Paul it’s not even funny. I can’t believe people even compare them. Look at their stats!”
    That would be asinine. Same thing with Bosh and Amare.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    I am also a Bulls fan, just for the record. Also Bosh is the better basketball player compared to Amaré although Amaré is a bigger headache for defenses. But apart from scoring it is Bosh all the way and Amaré’s letting other PF’s light him up daily kind of negates his offensive explosions. You just can’t win with a no. 1 option not interested on the defensive end. You just can’t sorry Amaré and NYK fans. Actually wont really change even if you guys get Melo.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Allen how much does the Williams/Paul debate rub you the wrong way? I see you consistently get sucked into it, and you don’t seem to necessarily enjoy it.

  • MUBWAR

    Y don’t everyone just root for the Heat. I mean come’on, it’s been 4 decades and we’re still having Celtic Lakers finals. Like Obama said its time for a change. Let the birth of a new dynasty.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    Lol, so that’s where you were going with that. In all seriousness, your right.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I have stanned for Dwil since Illinois when I thought he was the next Jkidd. I always hated Chris Paul because for some reason he rubbed me the wrong way.
    It hurt my heart when Dwil struggled out the gate his rookie year while Paul killed. I was angry when people argued that Paul was an all-time great while Deron was just good in his era.
    I had to admit for a year or two that Paul had the slight edge over Deron because I just couldn’t lie to myself. But, when Deron showed why he’s special, I expected all the Paul supporters to admit that Williams is currently better, but say Paul will be on top once he got back from injury. That hasn’t really happened.
    So, for some reason I can’t resist the urge to comment on it. I don’t want certain things to stand unchallenged and when people say it’s not really even close between Paul and Deron (which happens quite a bit) well I feel a need to correct them. That’s it.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Although I feel the opposite about the two (i’m a CP guy, never like Deron for no good reason) I see things the same way. Deron is better now, CP was, and IMO could be again if he ever gets healthy (doubt it’ll ever happen). I can’t help but commenting on every single thing I have an opinion on, so i feel you on that.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Yeah, I ride with D. Will over CP3 too.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    Makes sense, although as you hate my boy CP, if he was once again slightly (which I believe he is), would you be able to admit it?

  • Scott

    It is a damn shame Paul will probably never be healthy again. Those two season in 07 and 08 were two of the best ever for a point guard. We could have been looking at the next Isiah. Just for the record Paul deserved the MVP in 08 not Kobe.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    I can’t wait for the play-offs, so people will watch CP consistently over 4 games (at least), and see that he is still that great, NOH are just playing at a slower pace.

  • Scott

    AllBall…Paul is still great no doubt. His knee isn’t right. That brace looks horrible and from what I see it is like Paul picks his spots now to dominate. Hope I am wrong.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    he leads the league in PER and Win Shares, i think everyone still knows he’s great. just not what he used to be.

  • JTaylor21

    What are you guys talking about? You don’t lose your spot when you’re injured so therefore when 100% healthy (CP is not right now) he’s head and shoulders above other PGs DWill included. No one controls a game like he can and he’s put up better all-around numbers than DWill with lesser talented teammates all while being 2 inches shorter and 20 pounds lighter. He’s putting up better numbers this year than DWill even on a bum knee; more APG, more RPG, higher FG%, higher FT%, higher 3pt%, more SPG, and less TOPG while playing 2 less MPG. I mean is there even a question as to who is really the best PG.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    I’m hoping that come play-off time his explosiveness is back. I’ve watched all the NOH games so far, and over the past 15 i’ve been seeing glimpses.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    Jtaylor – Nope. I think people are comparing CP now to fully healthy CP. Even now, he is better than Deron.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    F*CK A PER!

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Williams controls a game better then Chris Paul right now. Deron Williams put a string of 30 and 10′s together while his team was underperforming, he is the reason they are in the thick of the homecourt in the playoffs picture. Paul is going to struggle keeping the Hornets in the playoffs. (i do realize Utah has a much much better team) And health does matter, if he isn’t healthy, and can’t be counted on, then the other guy with similar numbers who is 100% healthy is better. There is no way to know if Paul will EVER be healthy again, maybe right now, this is Paul’s new 100%

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    Well that was 100% opinion. Williams does not control the game better right now. How many times have you watched whole NOH games this year?

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Enigmatic if you don’t like PER then you should not use any other stat, ever, to make a case for anything.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    between 15 and 20

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    Also, Deron is not the sole reason, as you said they have a much better team. Without Paul, the Hornets are below 500. I’ve watched around 20 Utah games this year, and there is no way he is controlling the game better.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AllBall247

    nbk, i’m done on here for the day, as I know how me and you will get on this topic. I guess it is just the same as me and Allenp on this subject, totally differing opinions.

  • http://www.danchamb.com.br Lz – Cphfinest3

    I’m with Deron over Paul as of right now. No doubt Paul had another gear some seasons back. But right now Deron is the better player. His combination of size, strength, go-to moves and shooting (Paul is not the dead-eye shooter that Deron is when breaking down his man he also has less range, no matter what the % says that is what the eye-test tells me – no I don’t need glasses) puts more pressure on the D and is tougher to deal with for opposing teams imo. The Paul of right now is still a great player, but he is not that explosive force of seasons back, he rarely goes for high 20′ies let alone 30′ies. And it doesn’t seem to me that he has that ability to have 30/12 games no more. Whereas Deron seems to have one every third game.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Fa real? Williams team is more efficient, shoot a better %, Williams also performs better in the clutch, in every way (5 minutes left in OT or the 4th). Paul’s team is clearly worse when he is on the bench then Utah when Williams is on the bench But that doesn’t mean Paul is controlling the game better, it just means the Hornets are horrible and rely on Paul for almost everything. Its hard to explain, you have to watch a lot of each, (which i have this season) but Williams is playing better then Paul, even though both are 1A and 1B in the PG discussion.

  • Scott

    Paul has had a better career to this point then Williams but as of this season Williams is the better of the two. Durability is a concern with Paul. If you had to pick one of these two to start a franchise the safer pick would be Williams and I’m a Paul fan.

  • JTaylor21

    80%CP is better than 100% DWill. Dude is playing with a big a** brace and stills put up better all-around numbes than DWill. He’s a better shooter, a better passer, a better rebounder, a better thief, and a better leader. DWill can’t carry a team the say way CP carried the 08 hornets to the second best record. I mean come on, I know that people like to look for the next thing but CP is still the best PG and will be for the next 6-8 yrs.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Deron Williams is also a superior defender.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Williams isn’t always more efficient. But when he’s hitting shots, I think his scoring makes a huge impact on the game.
    When Paul was putting up 22 and 12, I couldn’t really argue that Williams was better. That would have been asinine. As much as I like him, I had to take the L.
    But, right now, Paul is still great, but the scoring is not there. And it’s not totally because of physical problems, he just doesn’t seem to want to score that much. Maybe it is physical and he’s so good that it’s hard to tell, but dude passes up shots he should take to make passes to inferior players. That’s not impressive to me. I believe point guards should pass, but they should shoot when their shot is the best scoring option for the offense. I don’t believe in passing just for hte sake of passing.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    JTaylor almost sucked me into this argument with that last comment, but I’m going to be strong. I can’t believe he wrote that though.
    Better shooter? Based on percentage only, in my opinion. That is not the correct way to guage who is the better shooter.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    08 Chris Paul is not 2010-11 Chris Paul. – and no way you can say he will be the best PG for the next 6-8 years. John Wall, Russel Westbrook, and Derrick Rose are getting scarier by the game, and Chris Paul is carrying an entire organization on one leg, that can’t last forever, or for even longer then one year. (as evidence by what happened last year)

  • http://gmail z

    gotta disagree with you on this jtaylor. I think that dwill has played better THIS YEAR. i think that 100% cp3 is probly the best pass first point in the world, but i just get the sense that he’s playing too passively with looking for his own shot. Bottom line is he’s the best scorer on that team (which is kinda sad, and in no way his fault). I think deron has struck a near perfect balance between shooting and passing this season.

  • http://www.facebook.com/joe.l.brewer3 BlackPhantom

    CP3 a better shooter than DWill? ok

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    touche, NBK

  • Scott

    I think the reason were not seeing Paul score as much is casuse it is physical. Paul probably doesn’t trust his knee it takes time to regain that confidence.

  • http://www.danchamb.com.br Lz – Cphfinest3

    @Jtaylor: That was 2008, you are in denial if you think 2011 Paul is at the same level as 2008 Paul. Also Williams is the better shooter, just because Paul shot a better % doesn’t mean he is a better shooter. He shoots less picks his spots more, partly because he doesn’t have the go to moves to jumper that Deron has – and together with his better D, size, strength and clutchness is one of the things that put him on a (sligthly) higher level.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Chris Paul doesn’t even look to score. There are some plays you can see he is not as aggressive as he used to be, but for the most part, he looks like he is trying to get everyone else involved or in rhythm or whatever, instead of taking on his own scoring responsibilities even if it is to the detriment to his team. And with that in mind, there is no way, none at all, I would be able to say he is better then Deron Williams this season.

  • JTaylor21

    Allenp, do you think that I based it upon just the stats? I probably watch CP play more than most people, so I do know what I’m talking bout. Dude is a better shooter than DWill, I mean maybe it’s because he doesn’t look for his shot as much as DWill does, so maybe that’s why people think DWill’s a better shooter but trust when I say that CP could easily avg. 25ppg strictly off jumpshots, 3pts and FTs. Z, like I said, even after coming back from a knee injury, CP is still a better PG than DWill. I mean this horntes team has no business winning 22mgs so far this season, the same way that 08 hornets squad had no business winning 55 gms.

  • http://www.facebook.com/joe.l.brewer3 BlackPhantom

    Who should get the overall nod between D-Will and CP3?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    For the record, when Paul averaged 21 and 22, he put up 16-17 shots. I would imagine that to average 25 like Rose, he would need about 20 shots or so, maybe 19.
    I think people have overestimated how much Rose is really shooting in comparison to recent and league history.
    I”m going to look up some numbers for other points.
    Also, Paul is only taking 11 shots this year. For someone with the ball in their hand as much as him, that’s not acceptable considering the talent around him.

  • http://www.danchamb.com.br Lz – Cphfinest3

    Hmm could just have co-signed I guess. All the comments after NBK’s 4:43 hadn’t showed up when I started typing (I have hooves for hands).

  • http://www.danchamb.com.br Lz – Cphfinest3

    Rose is surely gunning way to much for my liking. Please find the stats Allenp. Would help if he had a backcourt mate that could actually score, but still it is not optimal PG play in my book.

  • JTaylor21

    When did I say that ’10 CP is on the same level as 08 CP? People really need to start reading the entire post instead of making ish up. I said that he’s probably 80% healthy right now and he’s still the best PG. Also the reason why he doesn’t look for his shot as much as he used to is due to his knee injury. He doesn’t have the same lift and explosiveness on his jumpshot that he used to. Doesn’t it take a player coming back from a knee injury a full season to gain back his explosiveness and lift, so give it time.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    If anyone is wondering what is LZ if he has hooves, you should note, he is commenting from Narnia.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Deron Wiliams is currently putting up 22 and he’s still never taken as many shots Paul took in his highest scoring season.
    In fact, Chris Paul’s higher scoring average is directly related to the fact that he’s always taking MORE shots than Deron Williams. While Paul shots a ridiculous percentage from three (45 percent!) he only gets about 5 free throws per game to Dwil’s seven. In fact, Williams has upped his scoring average by four points per game, but is making less than one more shot per game!
    That’s bananas people, think about what that means. Look at their numbers side by side. Look at shot attempts, free throw attempts, all of that. Man, these two have always been neck and neck.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    DWill can’t carry a team the say way CP carried the 08 hornets to the second best record. – CP can’t carry a team like CP carried that 08 team. That’s why everyone is pointing out the irrelevant comment

  • http://www.facebook.com/joe.l.brewer3 BlackPhantom

    *”Overall” meaning when it’s all set and done. Better yet Who will get the nod?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I can’t find another point in recent years shooting as much as Rose.
    In fact, his current shots per game exceeeds any season for Stephon Marbury or Isiah Thomas.
    Only Allen Iverson took this many shots while playing the point in modern times and he was putting up 30 and seven.
    Then again, Bob Cousy reguarly shot as much as Rose and averaged five to six points fewer. Lol.

  • http://www.danchamb.com.br Lz – Cphfinest3

    @Blackp: When it is all set and done my money is on Deron to have had the best career and biggest impact on the game.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Paul and Williams will be = forever. Even if Paul’s career gets cut short, there will always be those that say, he was still better, his best seasons were still superior to Williams. And the Williams supporters will say the opposite, after 6 years, I don’t see anyway those two are separated when they retire. The PG version (much lesser version) of Bird and Magic.

  • http://www.danchamb.com.br Lz – Cphfinest3

    @nbk: You can’t say they will be = forever. At least Deron can still improve (Paul can improve to, but judging from the look of his physique he is more likely to decline imo), so who knows what the limit to his potetial is. Is it really out of the question that Deron will have better seasons than say Paul’s 2008 season? It is not a given that he will, but it is certainly not impossible either… If he keeps improving and keep healthy, while Paul by the look of it (let us hope he gets healthy) will slow down as his body further gets worn out then Deron could mos def go down with a better career in everybody except for the blind fanboys eyes.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    AllenP – Besides AI all I could find was Gary Payton from like nine years ago.
    Damn, Rose really is a chucker.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    IMO if Deron Williams stays in Utah, or moves to a contender, his stats will never increase much. He can get better, but just like any player, getting better does not mean it will be noticed. Take Stephen Jackson for example, his skill level was not realized until he played for a crappy team. (well in GS it was starting to become apparent when he locked up MVP Dirk) but he had been a very good wing for a couple years, but never really got recognition because of the strength of his teammates. (Reggie and Ron in Indiana, the Spurs in San Antonio, Baron Davis and Jason Richardson in GS). I just don’t think Williams getting better as a player will necessarily change people’s perception of him, because so much emphasis is placed on statistics

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    This again? ? Allen at 517 is interesting

  • http://www.danchamb.com.br Lz – Cphfinest3

    @Enigmatic: Coming from a fellow Bulls’ fan, who likes Rose’s game a whole lot. He is a horrible chucker and if he keep having success with that imo bad habit for a PG, it can be difficult to ‘unlearn’ it later when he (hopefully) gets a better team. This Bulls team is good but not even close to being good enough, they are like the Jazz a couple of seasons ago: good but won’t win a championship as currently constructed. Boozer will still get abused in the playoffs by which ever taller/longer PF he will have to guard. Same as when he was with the Jazz…

  • http://www.danchamb.com.br Lz – Cphfinest3

    Anyways I’m off to the gym, to try to get my knee up to Chris Paul’s knee current standard (would be a huge improvement). Peace out peoples.

  • 1982

    The only thing I have to say about the HEAT is that Spoel will be gone by next year, the same way Mike Brown said bye.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Allen, I can’t find your new piece.
    Is it hidden or am I just an idiot?

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Nbk, jacks skill level mght not have been noticed by YOU, but anyone whos been watching closely saw what he did in 03. …. Enigmatic, the latter.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Suck a duck, Tarzan.
    Nevermind, I found it.

  • CHILLIN’ LIKE A VILLAIN

    @1982: What if , i mean just maybe , it is possible that the HEAT win a title this year ? Will you transform out of your embridiotic state coz it aint 82 no more son ?

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Sure Tarzan everyone considered him as one of the better wings in the league. That’s why he had so much trouble even breaking into the league, and was never talked about as all star caliber until he was like 30.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    From Jordan, just for information purposes.

    It would have been tough, if not impossible to keep scoring like I did during the 86-87 season. I attacked from he opening tip until the last whistle for 82 games. That was my mentality. In terms of physical talent we probably has less on that team than any other Bulls team I played on. I knew I needed to score if we were going to be successful. I’m pretty sure Doug Collins felt the same way. I had one streak of nine straight games with 40 or more points. You have no idea how much energy it takes to score 40 points one night. The difference between averaging 32 PPG over an entire season versus a little over 37 is significant. Think of it this way: If I scored 32 one night then I had to score 42 the next night to get even. But that was a different era. Very few teams were as sophisticated defensively as they are today. And no team, with the exception of Detroit the next season, geared its entire defensive gameplan to shutting down one player…

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Great quote, where is that from Allen?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    shout out to myles for that quote.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I think it’s from one of mike’s books. The Love of the Game.
    Did you know Jordan actually had a triple double in 10 of 11 games in 1989? Crazy.
    The next quote after that in Myles piece says that Jordan recognized that defense would set him apart from the other greats and that’s why he did focused on it so much. he had two season with more than 200 steals and 100 blocks. Crazy.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Nbk, I didnt say anything about how he got into the league, or what ‘everyone’ considered him to be. So what are you talking about?…. Anyone who paid attn to his first few years, esp with spurs, could see he was/is a big 3 with range, good d, nice handles, and passing. Not really great at anything, but solid at everything.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Yeah I remember hearing someone say that about MJ, and Tarzan idk what your arguing with me anymore, ofcourse people knew he was good to an extent, he is in the NBA

  • http://Philosopher.vision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    Useful discussion.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Shut up phil! I just got reminded why I should ignore certain people.

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    You said that you wanted to be like me.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I thought that Jordan information Allen posted was elementary school stuff if you aren’t a casual basketball fan. This seemed new to you dudes? Perhaps I’ll rethink entering any future Jordan related arguments with this handful of regular performers. Bone up on your knowledge, boys.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    I haven’t read Jordan’s books, so I haven’t seen any of those quotes. I remember hearing about the triple double thing, and how he could seperate himself on defense, but I didn’t read it from Myles, or a book. Other then that, I’m pretty proud of my breadth of basketball knowledge, for my age.

  • confused

    whats up with that step back? hops back, picks up the ball, takes another dribble

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    I’m a fan of how hard Eboy is trying to make sure he doesn’t come on here everyday and say… “haw haw, we got LeBron we’ll win the championship and beat all you kobe lovers haw haw”… Kudos.
    ____
    A bit crowded on that band wagon hey fella?

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    The thing I can’t get around is… the heat have won 22 of their last 21 games and everyone wants to talk about adjustments, glaring holes, roster depth, 3 players scoring too much…. I can’t see how you can criticise artwork WHILST it’s being painted. Can’t we just wait till the portrait is finished (the season) and then work out what it is?

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    Take out MJ, Pippen and Kukoc’s offense from the Bulls championship run (96-98) and your left with little to no offensive support (Ron Harper and Luc Longely on alternative Tuesdays…?). My point is simple – If you have Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh AND LeBron James and you STILL NEED offense to come from other guys to win…? THEN your failing.

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    Dacre is a metaphorical genius.

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