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Thursday, January 20th, 2011 at 8:36 am  |  235 responses

Post Up: Help Wanted

Mavs get some needed assistance, while Orlando hangs on.

by Adam Figman | @afigman

…..deep breath…..

New Jersey 103, Utah 95

No more Melo; no more losing? Ha, right. Either way, putting the drama on hold allowed the Nets to focus up for at least one game, as they defeated the Jazz at home with relative ease. Brook Lopez led them with 20, but seven (!) New Jersey players scored in double figures, and they out-rebounded the Jazz by 13 in the win. ”I’m relieved it’s over,” coach Avery Johnson told the media after the contest, and, well, clearly his guys are too.

Orlando 99, Philadelphia 98

The no-longer-surging Magic took on the Sixers at home, and continued their struggling ways early before pulling back into the game late. Lou Williams’ buzzer-beating attempt rattled around the rim and fell out as regulation ended, which led to an overtime session during which Orlando had their way. Ryan Anderson led the Magic with 20 points, and more impressively, I just said typed that with a completely straight face. (And you guys think anyone can write about basketball? Pshh.) Before heading home, the 76ers stop in Charlotte for a battle with the Bobcats tonight.

Phoenix 106, Cleveland 98

Grant Hill, still chuggin’ along. The 38-year-old dropped 27 points last night, leading the Suns to an easy victory in Cleveland over the Cavs. Steve Nash contributed 15 points and 15 assists, and newcomer Marcin Gortat went for 16 points and 12 rebounds in the W. As if they needed any more problems, the Cavaliers’ injury report has stretched from a couple names to a legitimate list. Meanwhile, don’t look now, but the Suns have won four straight. Their road trip continues in Washington tomorrow.

Boston 86, Detroit 82

Speaking of thriving veterans, Shaq provided a double-double (12 points, 12 boards) for the Celtics, who squeaked this one out against a scrappy Pistons squad. A late Ray Allen J gave Boston their first lead of the second half, and they held on from there, barely nabbing the team’s fourth straight victory. Paul Pierce dropped 22, while Rodney Stuckey led the Pistons with 15.

New Orleans 103, Memphis 102

All types of drama in this one, as the Hornets came back in the third quarter and went back-and-forth with the Grizz in the fourth, forcing OT after some Chris Paul (20 points, 12 dimes) heroics. In extra time, Marcus Thornton (17 points) put in a reverse lay-up with 6 seconds remaining, and a Rudy Gay (22 points, 8 boards) buzzer-beater rimmed out as the Bees held on. New Orleans is picking up steam, with this being their sixth straight win in as many games after a slew of so-so play earlier in the year.

Milwaukee 100, Washington 87

You know those kids that can’t sleep away from their homes until their like, I don’t know, 17? The Wizards are their basketball equivalent, as last night’s loss pushed their road record to a dreadful 0-20. Damn. Keyon DoolingCorey Maggette and Earl Boykins combined for 63 points (not the best sign, if you’re an opponent), as the Bucks cruised en route to the victory. Andray Blatche did go for 23 points, 7 boards and 4 steals, while John Wall scored 10 and dished 13. The Wizards have two more home games (whew!), before they hit the road again to play in New York next week.

San Antonio 104, Toronto 95

The Raptors took a surprising 11-point lead into halftime, and then the Spurs, unsurprisingly, came back in the second half and earned the W. A 33-point Spurs third quarter made all the difference, as San Antonio—led by Manu Ginobili and DeJuan Blair’s combined 45 points—won their seventh straight. DeMar DeRozan, who will be replacing Brandon Jennings in the dunk contest, led the Raps with 28.

Houston 104, New York 89

The Rockets did a great job of holding down the Knicks last night, as a combination of good Houston D and poor New York shooting held the Bockers to 89 points. Kevin Martin led the Rocks with 21, while Chuck Hayes (8 points, 12 boards) played some strong interior defense and had a huge impact on the outcome. The Knicks have hit a mini-slump, losing four straight, and they obviously will might use this as a decent opportunity to call up the Nuggets and see what it’d take to hook New York up with another superstar.

Dallas 109, L.A. Lakers 100

When one squad that’s cruising along faces a squad in desperate need of a single win, things like this happen. The Mavs got a huge night from their bench, with Jason Terry and Shawn Marion each dropping 22. Both teams shot above 54 percent, but Dallas put in 12 threes (as opposed to the Lakers’ six), five of which came from Jason Kidd. Well, I guess this answers that.

Denver 112, Oklahoma City 107

Looks like the Nets’ removal of themselves from any and all trade talks (for the time being) also allowed a few Nuggets to realize that, without a super imminent trade awaiting, they can relax and actually play some ball. And ball they did, dropping 112 points (including 35 from Carmelo) in a win over the Thunder. Russell Westbrook and Kevin Durant combined for an even 50 in the loss, as OKC dropped to 27-15, tied with the Jazz atop the Northwest.

Portland 94, Sacramento 90

Fresh off some terrible news, the Trail Blazers went into Sacramento and played a close one, pulling ahead in OT behind a strong finish from LaMarcus Aldridge (23 points, but only 8 in the first three quarters). Nicolas Batum added 24, and the Blazers got a clutch jumper from Andre Miller in OT before going on to win their third straight. Beno Udrih, who’s been quietly putting up some nice numbers this year, led the Kings with a 20 spot.

L.A. Clippers 126, Minnesota 111

As two over-performing young forwards on two under-performing teams, the Blake Griffin v. Kevin Love storyline seemed to dominate this matchup. Love got the double-double (26 points, 11 boards), but Blake (29, points, 8 boards) got the win, as the lukewarm Clippers took down the ice cold TWolves without too much trouble. Eric Gordon added 23, and DeAndre Jordan put in 12 points and scooped up 11 boards for the Clips. The W was LAC’s third straight, and six in seven games; they’ll be Portland tonight going for a fourth.

Golden State 110, Indiana 108

Monta Ellis continued his stellar ’10-11 campaign last night, dropping 36 points and draining a jumper with 0.6 seconds left on the clock that put the Warriors on top. The shot came after an intense fourth quarter, as the Dubs barely took down the Pacers at home. Danny Granger filled up the stat sheet (32-13-6-3), but he didn’t get much help, as Indiana 16-23, just a game ahead of Milwaukee in the East. The West is hella crowded with stars, but Monta is making a pretty damn good case that he deserves to suit up in next month’s big game.

Actual Stats: Danny Granger: 32 points, 13 rebounds, 6 assists, 4 threes, 3 steals, 1 block

Moment of the Night: Not exactly a buzzer-beater, but it doesn’t get much closer than this. Monta, for the win:

(H/T: @outsidethenba)

And while the TV cameras did a fine job of capturing that, there’s something a little cooler about the from-the-stands, fan’s-point-of-view angle of this one:

…..exhale….

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  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    Melo > Durant… Just sayin’.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    Durant has been inconsistent this year, but he’ll be back. Nice shot by Monta, dude is really playing out of his mind this year, he’s starting to grow on me a lil’ more every day. I can’t believe the Lakers lost, their defense wasn’t at it’s best, but Kobe was good (10-18) and 10 assists, Pau was really good, lamar was good, Bynum and Fisher contributed, Dirk wasn’t on top of his game and they still lose, just goes to show you how the box score doesn’t tell the whole story, because if you look at the individual stats of LA’s players, you would’ve thought they won this one easily. Blake is great, changing the Clipper culture, seriously, how good is he?

  • http://www.slamonline.com THE REAL RIGGS

    Blake griffin shot a three that surprised the hell out of me.

  • Stepfan

    Monta Ellis…..where amazing happens

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    @The real riggs, Blake is actually 5-9 on the season shooting 3′s :P

  • http://www.slamonline.com Nick Tha Quick

    About the Lakers game. They actually played really well offensively most of the game until the end of the 3rd. I don’t know what it is about teams that play LA but they all seem to have a field day from the 3 when Lakers are supposedly tops in defending the 3. Kobe was very efficient, didn’t force much and made extra passes when he would normally force the issue a lot more. It’s hard being Bean because on a night like this where he passed a lot and they lose, people here will say he could scored more. On nights when he shoots more, he will also be killed for jacking shots. Lose – Lose. Here lately, I cringe when the bench comes in towards the end of the 3rd with Luke, Blake and Sasha. You know that lead is about to disappear real Quick!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Nick Tha Quick

    ^^^ My bad Shannon not Sasha. Easy to confuse the two. Separated at birth.

  • Scott

    When is Kevin Love’s contract up so he can get the hell out of Minnesota?

  • http://itsahardwoodlife.blogspot.com omphalos

    Durant has been inconsistently leading the league in scoring…

  • Veskit

    lakers pick and roll defense looked really bad yesterday. mavs could get anything they wanted out of the pick and roll. Kidd played great, if he could hit the jumper off the screen consistently, he would be so much better. Mavs are very hard to beat when terry has a good day and kidd scores 20.
    I hope the mavs get back on track after this one.

  • http://www.sportivore.com/2010/05/best-point-guard-on-the-planet-is-still-chris-paul-sorry-deron-williams/ AllBall

    Marcus Thornton needs more minutes. I read some where that statistically, on the defensive end, Marco & Marcus are about even. Offensively, it’s not even close, and for a supposed shooter Marco’s % are really bad (41FG, 393FG). Chris Paul made a lot of plays in the 4th and OT, I was on NBA.com yesterday and their poll question was ‘Who is the best PG in the NBA?’, and Chris’ name wasn’t included in the answers, and Diesel is calling him over rated!

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    Am I the only one still not convinced that the Magic got better after the trade? I feel like the Lewis/Carter v Turk/Richardson move was a wash. Gortat for Gil will hurt them come playoff time. And not a single good defender other than Dwight in your starting 5.

  • fruizm

    monta is a beast.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    haha AllBall – That just proves that NBA.com almost knows what they’re talking about. CP3 did have a good game last night though I’ll give you that.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Melo took Durant to school last nite. I guess we saw who the better player was last nite.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Melo won the battle. But, should he be an All-Star this year, if it means that KLove and Blake can’t make the team?
    All Star West forwards in my opinion should be
    Dirk, Gasol, Durant, Blake, Love
    Guards
    Kobe, Monta, Westbrook, Deron, CP3, Manu
    I haven’t decided on the final spot. I guess Melo could have it, but I wonder if Aldridge doesn’t deserve it more. Or Nash. Or Parker.

  • http://brimartin13@gmail.com Brion

    How did Arenas drop off so much? He used to light it up nightly, hes not old is he?

  • http://www.b-ballistics.com Darksaber

    Dirk impressed me last game. He played the Nowitzki 2005 game against Pau, multiple drives and low post shuffle moves, a nasty baseline two hand dunk after driving on Lamar, and multiple missed layups in traffic. For a guy still not moving as fluidly as usual, he sure took it to Gasol on the regular. When Tyson came back from his bout of puking i knew the energy would go up.
    Stevenson and Kidd did a solid job in staying in front of Kobe and Jason’s outside shooting was big.
    Poor Pavlovic with his broken nose also contributed on offense. Might be worth another 10 day contract, Cubes. Feel him out, see where his head’s at.

  • http://www.sportivore.com/2010/05/best-point-guard-on-the-planet-is-still-chris-paul-sorry-deron-williams/ AllBall

    Diesel, almost is right lol. You would think NBA.com would be able to make a connection between CP being one of the leading all star vote getters, and there point guard poll.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Dark
    You of all poeple should know that Dirk always kills Pau, to the point where it’s embarassing. Remember that 50 burger when Pau was in Memphis and Dallas swept them with ease? I’ll never forget it. He was destroying Gasol like Gasol was a child.

  • http://www.slamonline.com KulchaKris

    It’s hard being a Wizards fan. I find myself hoping they’ll go 0-41 on the road, just so we set a record in something. As for the Lakers, I know the team’s fans (and the media) are assuming they’ll be able to turn it on in the playoffs. Unless there’s a serious turnaround from them (and a corresponding dropoff from others), they’ll be on the road for the WCF, if they get there. Do we really think they can defeat the Spurs in a 7-game serious without home-cournt advantage?

  • http://www.b-ballistics.com Darksaber

    Guess some guys do prefer coming off the bench, Terry and Matrix were a step quicker than usual last night.

  • Scott

    Allenp, pass on Anthony this year. Anthony’s body language is terrible this year from the games I have seen. Aldridge is having a nice break out year.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @KulchaKris…The spurs have always been the Patriots of football and the same is true this year. They offense is great and their defense is not so good which will caused them to go home early in the playoffs. I have noticed that Allenp is not too big a fan of Gasol. To Allen’s credit I think he is their weak link even more so than Artest or Fisher since the Lakers depend on him so heavily and he’s being coming up short all season.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    Put Aldridge and Pau in as centers to make room. No true center in the West deserves to go.

  • http://www.b-ballistics.com Darksaber

    Allenp, don’t get it wrong though, Pau dominated Dirk last night, they matched up a lot between 2nd and 3rd quarters and Dirk had no answer for Pau on D.
    But Dirk took it TO him in a manner i haven’t witnessed from him this season. Missed a lot of gimmes but he drove past Gasoft at will. Surprised the hell outta me especially since Dirk is so obviously favouring that tender knee.

  • http://www.slamonline.com KulchaKris

    @Brion, multiple knee injuries will slow anyone down. In hindsight, Ernie Grunfield giving Gil a $100 million contract was a huge mistake. You’re not winning the NBA ‘ship if Gil is your best player.

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    I could give two ishes about the All-Star game. Carmelo is better than Durant. Hands down.

  • paul

    Celtics looking shakey, even with Garnett back.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Dirk can’t guard Pau that well in the post, and Pau can’t guard (healthy) Dirk anywhere.
    KAP
    I respect Pau’s game. I think dude has a lot of skill. But, I think he’s basically the same player he was in Memphis, and I remember the player he was in Memphis. He should thank the Lord for Kobe and Phil Jackson every night.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @Darksaber…Dirk had 32 the nite before and played much better than last nite so lets no go overboard on how good Dirk played.

  • http://www.b-ballistics.com Darksaber

    Gotta add, Kobe Bryant is starting to move VERY well lately, speed, 1st step and hangtime, lift, all on full display last night. Dude is a nightmare when he’s feeling health(ish)

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Honestly, I don’t even respect Pau’s game. I went crazy when people said he should be the first option and he was the MVP of the finals where he only showed up for four of the seven games. We all see this year what happened when the Lakers tried to make Gasol the first option. He started claiming he was exhausted and has yet to play good since they got off to that 8-0 start.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Orange
    He was better last night. Over this season he hasn’t been better. He’s been pretty inefficient, and he’s hurt his team with his general attitude. Durant is having something of a down year compared to last year, but he’s still a much more efficient scorer than Melo, and that’s truly what both of them are on the court to do.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    I really think LA should look to acquiring a legit second scoring option on the perimeter because they have been going through lots of scoring droughts this season.

  • http://www.sportivore.com/2010/05/best-point-guard-on-the-planet-is-still-chris-paul-sorry-deron-williams/ AllBall

    Again, Allenp is right. Kobe make’s Pau so much better. He was never mentioned as ‘best big man in the game’, before he started going deep into the play-offs with LA.

  • http://www.b-ballistics.com Darksaber

    Sorry to disagree Kap, seen the last 9 Mavs games, he was much more active and aggressive against the yellow/purple panties than against Detroit. Don’t get blinded by shooting % and points.
    He took 7(!) Three’s in Detroit, and loads of midrange shots, many of the contested kind. As soon as he saw Pau on him, it was all drives and aggressive moves, missed his 3 attempts from beyond the arc too.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Melo scores so much easier than Durant. Durant is simply a jumpshooter and not even much of a slasher. I would take Melo ten times out of ten. Durant doesn’t crash the board like someone of his size should do either. People say Melo doesn’t improve a team but he has had Denver in the playoffs since he got to the league even in his rookie year he led that team to the playoffs that won like 12 games the yr before and he was eventually robbed of ROY award.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @Darksaber…Actually I was wrong and I agree with you on your point.

  • http://www.b-ballistics.com Darksaber

    @Kap, no prob. We all make mistakes.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    I’d take durant. But Melo, as inefficient as he is, seems to be a flat out winner. Moreso then Durant, and his 35 last night came with his own crowd booing him throughout the game, that can’t be easy.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    lmao @ Darksaber.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    I take Durant every time. He’s not having a good a year as last year. He’s still leading the L in scoring. With every defense focused on stopping him.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    How bout Melo for Gasol straight up? They could play Melo at PF. He’d probaly do a better job playing defense on a PF and that’s not saying much.

  • T-Money

    Kobe didn’t make Pau better per se. He made Pau a winner, which means that he’s perceived differently now. His skill set is exactly the same as it was in Memphis. Individually, nothing has changed. The little jumper was already there, the footwork was already there and the lack of agression sometimes was already a problem. He was just miscast as a number 1 option.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    There is not a 4 in the league that would work better in the triangle then Gasol. And on Defense Him and Bynum make scoring in the paint oh so difficult. Plus he is the Lakers backup center.

  • T-Money

    Durant is better than Melo. He at least cares about defense and he doesn’t pout. And he’s just as good of a scorer (I know KD scores more per game but Melo rarely gets bothered by physical defense and that still happens to be the case with KD.)

  • Scott

    nbk, his own crowd should be booing him. What took Denver so long? Anthony basically shit on the whole season for Denver fans.

  • add

    thats the second time this month that a 3pt shot sent it into ot, man i got to say sixers gotta step up their perimiter d

  • Scott

    Durant is only 22 years of age. Not even close to reaching his ceiling yet. Take Durant over Anthony ten times out of ten.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Has anyone noticed that no team doubles Gasol? The only players that receives doubles on the Lakers is Bynum and Bryant. BTW…Gasol is regarded as the best power forward in the league so I think Kobe has in a lot of people’s eyes made Gasol better.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Gasol is regarded as the best PF for two reasons, he got the better of KG in the finals, and he plays for LA not Memphis. People are also talking about Amar’e Stoudemire as the best thing since women discovered victoria secret, even though he is not doing anything different then he did in Phoenix for the last 6 years.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    No one in the league can shut down Melo. Just ask the Lakers. We all know that Ron-Ron is the Durant stopper. Carmelo is also underrated as a defender as well. I think he does the best job holding Lebron out of anyone besides Stephen Jackson.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    NBK , what he’s doing different is shooting at a lower percentage and blocking more shots. He’s creating more on his own. He is actually being a workhorse for once, getting buckets in the halfcourt when the team needs them etc. The suns had so many weapons they didn’t have a singular go to guy, now it’s like get the ball to Amare and let him go to work. He didn’t do much of that in PHX.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Gasol is too good a passer to double team. Good Vision and Hands, tall, with too many weapons around him to double team.

  • http://www.sportivore.com/2010/05/best-point-guard-on-the-planet-is-still-chris-paul-sorry-deron-williams/ AllBall

    I think Bosh could work in the triangle equally as well.
    T-money, I just went to basketball reference to check out if Pau had made improvements, he has in rebounding, but the rest of his stats are similar from his Memphis days. I still think Kobe has made him a better player, when you think that he is taking less shots, playing less minutes, yet his stats as the 2nd option now are almost identical to what they were as a 1st option in Memphis.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Gasol was getting murdered by KG when the series shifted to Boston. I just don’t trust the guy when the game is on the line. It scares the heck out of me to see the ball in his hand at the end of the game.

  • http://www.b-ballistics.com Darksaber

    Victoria’s secret, tsss, so overrated. (not you, Mrs Lima-Jaric)
    Type Valisère into google, prepare to drool.

  • http://www.sportivore.com/2010/05/best-point-guard-on-the-planet-is-still-chris-paul-sorry-deron-williams/ AllBall

    But yeah, his exposure being in LA has made a difference to people’s perceptions also.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    I didn’t mean in regards to his duties on the court my fault Bryan. I mean in his output, and efficiency. He IMO is actually a leader now, he didn’t need to be, or just wasn’t here in phoenix that’s the only thing that puts him in the MVP conversation. But as a front-runner for the award he would presumably need to improve his output right?

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    I agree with Allball…Bosh would thrive in the triangle. I was one of the people hoping Bryan Colangelo called Kupchak last yr about a Gasol/Bosh swap.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    I was hoping they pulled the trigger on the Bynum for Bosh swap, I thought LA would have one of the best offenses of all-time if that went down. As much as I loathe watching LA win games

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I think Gasol is a better fit than Bosh in the triangle because he’s more comfortable working with his back to the basket and making plays deep on the block. That’s not Bosh’s strong suit.
    Melo’s scoring is down, his percentages are down, and his rebouding is up. To me, while he’s more of an offensive force when his game is cooking, he’s also more inefficient with his random turnovers and crying to the refs.
    There are very few players in the league who can do to Durant what Ron Artest did to Durant. Who else shuts him down like that?
    And Melo didn’t face Artest. He faced Ariza. There is a massive difference between bullying Ariza and bullying Artest. Now, Melo’s quickness is a problem for Artest, but he would not bully Artest on the boards, which is what was killing the Lakers a few years ago, before Phil figured out that sending a double Melo’s way, and forcing him to pass, negates him.
    Durant shoots to many jumpers, this is true. But, he doesn’t just need isos to get buckets, in fact, he is less effective in isos. He’s great on the pick and roll, great on pin downs, great on curls. It’s just isoing that gives him trouble, and I think he’ll correct that soon.

  • Brahsef

    Lol at people hating on Gasol. You’re way too spoiled of a fan if you don’t like Gasol. You’ve gotten 2 chips since acquiring him, in what was considered the most lopsided trade of all time.

    He’s gonna be a hall of famer! Christ.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    I feel you. In fairness though his scoring is up like 4 per game. His shot blocking is up and the Knicks wins are way up. He’s not the MVP to me, but he’s in the conversation. All NBA pick for sure.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    I agree on that. I contest his per game stats being up to a boost in minutes and touches, but I also have him as an ALL NBA player. As long as he qualifies as a forward.

  • bigdoggchad

    @ Allenp Durant averages more turnovers than Melo. Durant doesn’t cry to the refs cause he gets calls. It was a joke a jump shooter(Durant)leading the league in free throw attempts per game last year. Durant isn’t even the best player on his team RIGHT NOW Westbrook is playing crazy right now. Look at the head to head between Melo n KD. Melo gets the better of Durant every time not to mention his team gets the W. And GTF out of here with the Artest shuts down Melo. Look up the stats Melo averages like 27 pts 50% shooting against Artest.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    People have this criteria for MVP that I think needs to go out the window. The best teams are stacked with several talents and many of the front runners for MVP before the season started didn’t improve the way they should.
    MVP is a yearly thing. This year, it’s going to be picking the most valuable OUT OF THE BUNCH. Amare could win it, so could Dirk, so could Rose/Deron/CP3 depending on how each team finishes… If Durant finishes strong, he could win it too. And if they all play on the same level, THEN I can see Lebron or Rondo or Howard winning it.
    But a lot of peoples’ criteria aren’t going to work this year.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Jukai that read like this, anyone in the league who seems most important to their team could win MVP. And some people won’t like the outcome.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    I just don’t understand how Lebron could win it over Wade or vice versa because either is dominant on a given night. Lebron has the ball in his hands more so of course his assists are higher but there have been several games where Wade was dominating, games where Bron was dominating, and games where both were reppin. I think its bias when I hear guys say Bron is the MVP.

  • T-Money

    Who’s hating on Gasol?! Allen: I think Bosh would work great in the triangle because he’s a beast in the pinch post area. He posts up more than people think – he just wheels and deals instead of barrelling his way through. Bosh and Gasol are basically identical players as far as production: both sitting at 19 pts on 14 shots(even the rebounding is identical if you look at their careers. 8 boards a game for bosh is an anomaly). / I’ve watched Melo vs Ron and he doesn’t try to bully him but just beats him with a quick first step. Exactly like Bron. Ron Artest’s impact is greatly diminished when you can withstand his physicality and have quicker feet.

  • T-Money

    Then again, the list of small forwards that can withstand Ron’s phisicality whilst having quicker feet starts and stops at Bron and Melo.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    I say Stoudemire for MVP because he has turned the Knicks into a relevant fun to watch team with Derrick Rose close behind because that Bulls team has been beat up all year and they still have a top 4 seed in the East even though they are in the worst division in the L.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Bigdogg
    Where did I say that Arest shuts down Melo? I said he shuts down Durant, but he is unique in that ability in the league. Please re-read what I wrote.
    I said that Melo’s quickness bothers Artest, but, unlike Ariza, Artest is not going to be bullied on the offensive glass, which is what Melo did to the Lakers in the WCF a few years back. That doesn’t happen against Artest.
    Durant averages more turnovers, but he also takes fewer stupid shots where he bangs into people already in position, flails his arms, and looks for a call. There is a reason Melo is shooting 43 percent from the floor and 26 percent from three. That’s inefficient. This isn’t who has had the better career, this is about who is better right now and deserves to be an All-Star, at least that’s what I was talking about.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    nbK: Yep. Pretty much.
    Kap: I think Lebron is SLIGHTLY better BECAUSE he has the ball in his hands, and that is what would win him MVP. Let’s not even get into WHO is actually better, but if Lebron has the ball in his hands more, he’s able to to more and in turn is the more productive player on the team. Regardless, the majority of people are going to be like you and say “there’s no way Lebron gets his MVP because he’s playing with an almost as talented Dwyane Wade” and it will be given to someone else. Lebron will only be brought up if EVERYONE ELSE is so identical that it’d be impossible to choose.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    T-Money
    Exactly on Artest. Melo and Bron are anomalies, and Artest still plays both of them better than Ariza could ever hope to play them. Not saying Ariza is a slouch at all.
    Artest is underrated as a defender. L.A. fans are crazy.

  • T-Money

    Kap: That’s stupid. There’s a reason why the ball is in his hands: he’s the best passer on the team. It’d be like saying of course Kobe is the leading scorer on the Lakers, they run all the plays for him and he gets to shoot every time. There’s a reason why they run plays for him and he gets to shoot more: he’s the best scorer on the team. Bron and Wade are scoring equally as well this year with Bron having the added responsibility of basically running the show. And all Miami fans will tell you that D-Wade’s defense has been terrible this year. So yeah, not that close so far.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @T-Money…Wade averages one block a game and almost two steals a game. He’s usually more engaged on defense where as Lebron is often playing free safety and trying to make the highlight play. I just have a problem with the leader of the team who could just as well play just as good basketball with ball in his hands more than Lebron being thought of as just a great role player when he is the reason for the Big Three in Miami. Especially when his stats are about identical except for the defensive stats which favor Wade. Remember the team didn’t stop struggling until WADE START PLAYING BETTER. That should be taken into account.

  • T-Money

    Allen: I do agree that LA fans criticize Artest a little too much. But as far as LeBron, I don’t think Artest plays him tougher than Ariza. Physicality has not bothered LeBron since his 3rd or 4th year in the league, he’s been torching this slower Ron Artest – easily. The thing that bothers Bron the most is quick feet and quick back rotations. I’ve never seen someone play him as well as Tony Allen for example, he was clearly frustrated by TA.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Rondo deserves some MVP love as well. The Celtics didn’t look so good when he was out with the ankle injury.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    KAP
    That’s some bad logic. Watching the games will tell you that Wade isn’t playing the same level of man to man defense as LeBron.
    It will also tell you that while the two players have similar styles on offense, LeBron’s game is more important to the overall success of the rest of the team.
    Well, that’s what watching the games has told me.

  • T-Money

    Kap: Your first sentence makes me question your line of reasoning when talking about defense (stats, really?). Your second sentence leads me to believe that you haven’t watched that many Miami games. Bron often finishes games on the shooting guard because Wade is getting torched. Wade has been basically a DB this year – never close to his man, always roaming. You could say that the team didn’t stop struggling after Wade started playing better… you could also say that Bron has been way more consistent and played good basketball from the jump. Why would Wade deserve more credit for playing like sh-t the first few weeks?

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    The only problem us Lakers fans have with Artest is on the offensive side of the court. He plays so horribly and shoots so horribly to once have been a 20 ppg scorer. His defense has been outstanding this year.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Right now, I don’t think there is an MVP. Like Jukai said, it will depend a lot on the rest of the year. Normally, at this point, there are one or two runaways.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Look, let’s not kill Wade TOO much. His man-to-man defense has been strangely horrendous but he has had some timely blocks and key steals. He’s purely a help defender at this point, and Lebron is the lockdown guy.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    AllBall: What about that Nash guy up in Phoenix. He’s overdue, right?

  • Pharoah

    Orlando down by 4 and J-Rich to the rescue with a 4 point play. OT same story but this time with JJ and nobody is mentioning this?!?

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Dirk is still my MVP, Dallas has the best win % in the league with him in the lineup outside of San Antonio. And Wade averages higher defensive stats then LeBron because he floats and gambles on defense. I have criticized his defensive effort for 3 years now. Its just that his trapping, floating, gambling ways pay off more this year because he is on such an athletic team, recovering is what they do best. IMO

  • T-Money

    Ugh, I don’t want to make it seem like I’m hating on Wade. It’s truly a joy to watch him split double teams and weave his way to the basket. 3rd best player in the league in my mind. I have no doubt that he’ll turn it on on the defensive end when it counts. I’m still expecting him to close out games on the elite point guards with Mike and Bron on the wings.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Neither Bron or Wade played ‘good, consistent basketball’ over that 9-8 stretch. I wouldn’t expect you to acknowledge that, T-money.
    Since 9-8, Bron has been playing good, consistent basketball.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Jukai, your going to go starting a war lol.
    If we are using nbk’s criteria, Nash may well be the MVP. Imagine the rest of the Suns, this year, without him……

  • T-Money

    wow, i have to agree with nbk there. don’t know why i wasn’t thinking of dirk. that’s the mvp right there, case closed. i’m not even joking.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    I’ve watched games and Lebrons defense is overrated. He gets away with a lot of fouls. Lebron did not play so great either those first few games. He was averaging like six TO’s a game the first few weeks so lets not act like Wade was the only one struggling. Lebron was shooting in the low 40′s as well as Wade.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Amare is my MVP, but that’s only because I think him/Deron/Rose/Dirk are sort of dead even and I like Amare the best out of those four. Sooooooo…

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    If the Clippers can get to .500 how about Blake Griffin for MVP? He’s truly been playing the best basketball out of any player this season. Especially if we go by Jukai’s criteria. Derrick Rose as well.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    AllBall: SHHHHHH NOT TODAY OH GOD IT’S TOO LATE THEY HEARD RUN!!!!!
    Kap: Once again, if Lebron gets away with fouls, then he’s still playing great D because they’re not calling them. Am I correct?

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @Jukai…I guess thats somewhat correct but flawed at the same time. We all know the Refs give Lebron alot of added assistance during games.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    It’s not really MY criteria, it’s simply the criteria that will have to be used this year because there is no standout talent who is going to run away with MVP.
    Oh boy, I have a feeling I’m going to get blamed for something.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    AllBall I have said repeatedly a team consistently win in order for a player to get MVP. There is no Most Valuable Loser, take Nash off the suns and they are still bad. Doesn’t change much except they wouldn’t even sniff the 8 spot, which at this point the lottery might be the best thing for them. Unless they don’t have this years pick, Jukai do you remember if they do or not?

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    I love Amare, obviously. But the Knicks aren’t gonna win nearly enough games to validate his MVP.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Well the good thing is we have another half of the season to see how this thing plays out.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Somebody told me this yesterday.
    Dirk and Chris Webber have had very similar careers, and have very similar legacies to this point.
    Discuss.

  • T-Money

    Kap: what part of Bron’s game do you think is NOT overrated? You’ve said he’s overrated as a scorer, passer, defender, leader…

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    I know I might be attacked for this, but I would like the MVP to be able to play 82 games.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    @Kap: Well, I mean, all stars get superstar treatment. Kobe pushes off a lot in his old age, blatantly, and never gets called for it. Watching the Heat play this year makes me realize I should not have given Lebron all the crap I have for his travels, since Wade does it twice as much. Howard goes over people’s backs to get rebounds all the time. It’s a superstar game. Perhaps, if you’re comparing the upper echelon players of all time, you can nitpick when comparing these things… but you’re comparing the players of today, you can’t dock Lebron because you perceive he controls the ball more and that separates him from wade, or he doesn’t get called for fouls and that makes his defense better. The bottom line is, these things do happen and this is what separates him. Correct?

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Yeah, my bad nbk. I think you maintain that, and what I mentioned, as part of your criteria. Using that criteria (consistently winning, most valuable to their team), who would you vote for?

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    1:14PM – Dirk, I explain why there.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @ T-Money…I like the guys game but I just have a problem with the way espn and other media outlets act like he is Jesus with a bball jersey. I also hate the way the Refs give him just about every call plus the fact he is a big baby. I think he’s a great passer, rebounder, and finisher but he’s not skilled enough for people to say he’s going down as the GOAT. He reminds me so much of the Atlanta Michael Vick.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Allenp: Er…. I…. respectfully disagree. At this point in time, it was clear Webber was begin a very big decline, while Dirk looks as strong as ever. Not to mention, MVPs/taken his team farther/and even with Dirk’s legendary collapses, he’s still had more big moments than Webber. I don’t want to hate on Webber here, he is perhaps in the top-10 forwards of all time with Dirk (perhaps, I don’t want to think about it too hard right now) but I think Dirk is a few players above Webber.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    They referee players, not plays, right?

  • T-Money

    Allenp: disagree. production and teams success is similar but expectations were much higher for chriss, which impacts his legacy. he was supposed to change the game, he didn’t. he spent his career trying to show us his whole bag of tricks when all we wanted is for him to beast on cats. chris always wanted to be a wing.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @Jukai…Yea I agree with you. I like his game but I just don’t like Lebron the tv personality. So I am bias when I discuss him just as I’m bias when I discuss the Lakers and Kobe.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    If I HAD to pick an MVP right now, it would be Chris Paul (surprise) or Rose.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Kap: And with that statement, you have risen above several other commentators in my mind who can’t admit their bias. NO NAMES THOUGH TODAY, today is “nice” Jukai.

  • T-Money

    kap, actually i’ll take that back. i don’t feel like talking about lebron today and i won’t change your mind anyways. the only thing that puzzles me is that lebron detractors (who often double as lakers fans in these parts) are CONVINCED that lebron gets superstar calls that other superstars don’t get even though his free throw attempts per game are exactly in line with other stars. Superstars go to the line between 8 and 10 times a game (kobe, wade, bron, kd, dwight, stat, etc.), this has always been the case. I’m really curious to know where that perception comes from.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Actually Bargananis and Dirks career (numbers wise) are starting to look identical.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    @T-Money – It comes from hate. In all its various forms

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Juks, right now:
    Chicago 28-14
    Dallas 27-14
    Utah 27-15
    New Orleans 27-16

    Of those teams, whose MVP candidate do you think has done the most, carried their team to the most wins, or would be missed the most?

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @T-Money…Lebron has never fouled out of a game or even come close to have 5 fouls or ever been ejected for a game. He avgs 1.6 fouls a game for his career. He often goaltends and fouls on the chase down blocks i.e. when he blocked Jason Richardson a few seasons ago and nothing was called when it was clearly a foul. I guess the perception just begins there.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    I agree with you T-money. All those guys get superstar calls. It will just be more noticeable if you dislike a certain player.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Wasn’t Dirk supposed to not only change the game, but be the next Larry Bird?
    The mood around Dirk has mellowed in recent years, but after the GSW series, it seemed like everyone had officially given up on the existence of his scrotum, myself included. Even now, the praise for him has been muted somewhat, and people don’t truly appreciate his skill level and consistency.
    I would argue that Webber dealt with the same thing. Yes, he was incredibly hyped coming out of Michigan, but after some early maturity issues, he lived up to the hype! Those Sac Town teams went head to head with the best teams of their era, and before Webber’s injuries, they were consistent contenders. Hell, people complain about how the Suns got shafted, but we all know the Kings got super shafted by the refs several times. Plus, Webber’s numbers are great and his toolbox was amazing. It’s funny that Webber’s desire to develop and outside game is seen as negative considering what the standard blueprint is for a power forward today. Plus, he was not more perimeter oriented than KG.
    I think Dirk and Webber both suffer from the expectations and hype monster, which prevents a true appreciation for what they have accomplished.
    Both players were very intelligent, and in some ways wanted to break out of the mold established for their positions. Both of them turned around horrible franchises, with good but not great supporting casts. Both them were often villified and called soft by the media and fans.
    I like the comparison as far as how their careers have played out.

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    I have a feeling that this may get interesting again. Let’s see.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Kap that block on Richardson was clean. I was 10 rows away. And Bron doesn’t foul because he doesn’t gamble on defense. Also he is quicker and stronger then everyone he matches up with, its hard to foul someone when you are rarely at disadvantage. You’ve plaid ball before right? Against inferior competition? Did you foul them very often?

  • T-Money

    i used to have a strong bias against kobe. i don’t think i do anymore, i’ll never root for him but i can have a rational debate about his game. contrary to what some posters believe, i actually don’t care that much about lebron the person (i don’t care about athletes or entertainers outside of their public persona in general). i just love how he plays ball, even if his game is not flawless. to me, he plays the game the right way – scoring when needed but always keeping his teammates involved.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Except Dirk was about twice the rebounder, even early on.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    David Kahn would disagree with Allenp and say Darko and Webber have had similar careers.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Allen, the Bird comparisons were off base from the start. The guy never had the handle or vision of Bird.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Webber and Dirk were consistent in output. Their games are/were wholly different though. The only thing that would put a gap between them in the all time ranks is championships. I would give Dirk the edge solely due to his MVP and Finals appearance.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @nbk…I agree with everything you are saying except maybe the part about Richardson not getting fouled. I also see where T-money is coming from.

  • JTaylor21

    I am hating on wade because his defense has been horrible since the first game in boston when he allowed Ray to get open so many times. His just not dialed in defensively which always has Mia’s back line defense in recovery mode. Agaisnt the Hawks he made two costly defensive errors down the stretch; the one when he completely turned his back on JJ and the other one when he gambled and let JSmith lay it in. There was a reason why Bron was guarding his man down the stretch and the same thing has been happening all season long.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Bryan
    You meant Webber, right? Webber was always the better rebounder and passer. They are about even as scorers, maybe a slight edge for Dirk, maybe.
    Anyway, I wasn’t saying the way they played was that similar at least not the style of play. The mindset they brought to the game has some similarities, as well as their weaknesses. And I think the public perception of them is very similar.
    Webber really had a great career when you look at the numbers and team success. Seriously, he had a GREAT career until the injuries, and even then he held out for a couple years on sheer skills.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    Someone on another site compared the Lakers of today to the old Celtics. Bird-Kobe, McHale-Gasol, Parrish-Bynum and Fisher-Dennis Johnson. Anyone agree on that comparison? I find a little merit to it.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    I still believe Bargnani only was the first pick because of Dirk. And Dirk got shafted with those Bird comparisons early in his career, still is being shafted by them. Bird’s combination of shooting, basketball IQ, and Passing Ability will never be matched. His legacy should not hurt Dirk’s

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    I’m a fan of Monta and think he should be a all star this year even last year but rush did not play good defense at all he made that shot easy for ellis.

  • T-Money

    Allen: 1- i don’t think you can compare the hype around c-webb with the hype around dirk at all. not even close. nobody had any idea who dirk was when he was drafted, c-webb was a very well known commodity. yeah some lazy analysts threw the bird comparison (it’s crazy to compare anyone that’s not a playmaker to bird) but who was really disappointed that dirk didn’t turn out to be as good as larry?! 2- c-webb was waaaay more perimeter oriented than kg. kg shoots jumpers. cwebb wanted to bring the ball up from time to time and dribble through his legs on the wing. and the big difference between his postgame and dirk’s and kg’s is that c-webb was an absolute MONSTER on the low block. his combination of skills, athletic ability and strenght could not be handled. yet, he chose more often than not to drift away.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Kap – Bron got the ball on that block, the physical contact was a result of Richardson doing a STUPID, outright IDIOTIC, 360. He followed that up with a criminal (90 in a 45) speeding ticket with his kid unbelted in his carseat to illustrate his genius. I mean Richardson should have just dunked it, but he was excited about his brand new jersey and the prospect of gaining an enthusiastic fanbase in phoenix, so he attempted to showboat against the only player who has a highlight real of stopping normal layups in the same conditions.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Allen, I was talking about Andrea Vs Dirk rebounding, not Dirk/Webber.

  • JTaylor21

    Kap, stop it slime. How do they compare? How is Bird and Kobe alike? How is the Chief and Bynum alike? I could see a couple of similarities in McHale and Gasol’s game but McHale would wipe the floor with him and lock him down on D. Also Fisher and DJ? You’re kidding right. Those great 80s celtics teams would destroy most teams today.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Lamar is a more viable comparison to Bird than Kobe.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Jtaylor did you just insinuate Kevin McHale is a lockdown defender? lol are you serious with that?

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Although neither is a good comparison.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Dirk was a much better scorer than Webber. Webber had passing and defense.
    I mean, I think Webber had MORE talent than Dirk but is a lesser player for a few reasons:
    1- By 27, Webber was being WRECKED by injuries and by 32, it was clear he was fading away, he was half the player we saw before. Dirk Nowitzki has been an iron man and he isn’t showing any real signs of fading
    2- Webber was a little bit more hyped. The Larry Bird comparisons came later in Dirk’s career when he had already established himself, Webber was hyped coming out of college
    3- Webber was NEVER the leader of any of his teams. I mean, maybe Washington, but even then, I remember Howard and Strickland being more vocal at the end there. Sacremento was always Bibby’s team. Maybe that’s some revisionist memory on my part (I didn’t really follow any of Webber’s teams that close) but it’s what I remember. Dirk has always lead his team, even during the Nash/Finley days. He’s always been the vocal leader. Sometimes even to a fault (remember when he blew up on his team against Phoenix?).
    4- The Finals appearance and the MVP sort of help.

  • T-Money

    Andrea and Dirk are not even in the same zip code, really.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    NBK: McHale was a very good defender bro. Not lockdown, but he was very, very good, especially before his foot injury.

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @JTaylor…I didn’t write the article. I just asked if anyone agreed with it. I read it on another site yesterday.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Jtaylor, you said that they would beat most of today’s teams. Who wouldn’t they beat this year?

  • http://slamonline.com Kap

    @T-money…If you compare Andrea’s first four seasons to Dirks first four seasons the numbers are kinda similar. Remember that Dirk had Nash and Finley to play off of.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Jukai, The Larry/Dirk Comparisons were started his rookie year. Mainly because he was a sweet shooting tall white guy. Any white perimeter forward automatically gets called Larry Bird. Dirk also wasn’t always the leader. Tmoney I agree, somebody said Dirk and Andrea’s numbers were nearly identical, I was correcting that person.

  • JTaylor21

    Alright NBK keep fooling yourself. Dude was one of the best post defenders in the 80s and he guarded guys like ADantley when Bird couldn’t. That’s what made that celtic frontline one of the greatest frontlines in history, their versatility and McHale’s defense.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Bryan: hmmm I did not know that about the comparisons. I’ll defer. But I believe Dirk was the outspoken leader for most of his time in Dallas. I now it wasn’t Nash, so who was it— Finley? I mean, it could have been, I just remember Dirk doing a lot of talking.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Kap, what are you talking about?? Dirk first four : 8.2 points 3.4 boards, 17.5 6.5 , 21.8-9.2, 23.4-9.9. Andrea – 11.6-3.9, 10.2-3.7, 15.4-5.3, 17.2-6.2.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Naw he wasn’t. He never had to guard a great low-post player except in the Finals against Houston. And he got smashed by Hakeem. McHale was a decent help defender blocking shots, but on-ball he was nothing special. They had “The Chief” Rober Parish for that.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Kap: Compare their four year numbers…
    Dirk: 23.4ppg 9.9rpg 2.4apg 1.1spg 1bpg on 48/40/85
    Andr: 17.7ppg 6.3rpg 1.2apg 0.3spg 1.4bpg on 47/37/77
    Soooo after four years, there was a tremendous difference. Their fifth year numbers look a little closer cause Dirk had a downyear his fifth year, but even then, there is a lot of difference.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Jtaylor, where can I watch classic games online?

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    McHale is the greatest offensive low-post power forward of all-time. Him or Duncan for that matter. He never got any defensive recognition, never put up any significant defensive statistics outside of his 2 blocks a game (in the 80′s at such a ridiculous pace, 2 blocks a game was nothing special.) He may have seemed like a good defender because he was a celtic, but so does Ray Allen and Paul Pierce in todays league, when in reality they are just average.

  • JTaylor21

    Kap, my fault but do you agree with article? AllBall, I think this year’s celtics and orlando team would give them problems but they would still win.

  • T-Money

    Jukai: Bibby’s team? Are you serious? Sacto started and ended with C-Webb, cmon now.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    NBK: Saying Hakeem smashed McHale is common sense… David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Shaq, Charles Barkley, they all got slaughtered by Hakeem. David Robinson was one of the best defenders of all time.
    You can argue McHale wasn’t a great defender, but six all-defensive appearances and a nod by almost every sports writer in the universe has being part of one of the best defensive frontcourts in league history is pretty hard to get around.
    He was a great help-defender, but his on-ball defense was pretty great too. I’m not talking Mutumbo level defense, but McHale was a great defender.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    T-Money: I admit that I don’t really have a clear memory of that Sacto team cause I didn’t care for them at all, but from what games I remember, Bibby was vocal both on the court and in the huddles. Webber was pretty silent. I’ll freely admit I could be wrong on that.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Webber was the leader of the Sacremento resurgence. His first two years there he was playing with Jason Williams running the show. The most likely leader is Vlade though. I don’t know how pace helps blocks per game though, NBK.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    my bad on the no defensive recognition statement, that’s not how i meant it too sound. I mean nobody talks about McHale as a great defensive player, definitely not lock-down. I realize he got defensive recognition in the defensively lacking 80′s, but he didn’t really have much competition. I gotta go to a job-walk so sorry if i get a response and seem to ignore you

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    AllBall: Youtube has a TON of classic games. You just gotta search by user.
    NBAclassics has a lot of specials, plus the users DownsA530, WiltAtKansas, nahoipeeps060, sauhadjj3, LakersDynasty42, ScottPippenBulls, ginoongkamote, LASAV, BMACPOLAND1, clear15, TheABAhistory, diegoris23, keptic, cboyzfan8, patvilhauer, bluestreak77777 have all had great old games. Youtube, hardwood classics, and torrents are the best thing for old hoops.

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    Webber was the Man on those teams. smh

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    T_money
    I don’t think you remember KG from his youth. Back when Minnesota had him running the one.
    And Webber was good on the block, but that was never his true strong suit, in my opinion. He never had great post moves. He had the baby hook to his right, but do really remember him using the spin counter, or going to a fadeaway on the block.
    Most of his career was catch and face, drive, finish. Or, hit the mid range jumper. At times he would back cats down and his the hook, but that was really his only true “move” on the block.
    Whether the comments about were fair is not really my point. It’s that the hype existed from Dirk’s second year on. Webber had more hype initially, but was written off after the Washington debacle.

  • JTaylor21

    AllBall, there’s WiltatKansas and tjhunt76. Just type either one into youtube and they should come up.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Simple Bryan, more shot attempts = more block opportunities

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Webber was the clear leader in Sactown. Hell, he was the leader for like three or four years before they even got Bibby.
    His injuries were due to the times. They hadn’t perfected microfracture surgery yet, and he paid the price for that.
    And, I don’t understand how Dirk just gets to be the much better scorer than Webber, not based on the numbers or skillset. It is very close between the two.
    Anyway, if nobody else sees it, nobody else sees it.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Allen, I agree on KG. But Webber was a monster down low. He didn’t shoot a fadeaway, but he never really needed to. He was way too physically overpowering on the block to fade off. He scored on everyone down there. Right now the legacies of Webber and Dirk are similar though, neither one champions. Dirk revolutionized the euro trend, while Webber sort of set the 90′s blue print for a perimeter style power forward hybrid.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Type in: 1969 NBA All-Star Game (Part 1 of 16) into youtube to get started, not just a great game, but wow, look at all those great cigar commercials

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Allen: Well, I mean, not only did Dirk average more points on better percentages across the board, but he has more moves.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jukai
    There is a difference between being “better” at something and “much better” at something.
    Dirk was slightly better, not much better. He did not have more “moves”. Webber had face up game, jumpers and post game, although the last one was slightly limited. He caught alleys, was a better cutter to the rim. He scored in more ways than Dirk, who is basically catch and iso or catch and shoot.
    Bryan
    I consider somebody a monster down low when they have multiple go-to moves and counters on the block.
    By that logic, KG and Webber were never “monsters.” They were good, very good, but not monsters. Duncan was a monster. Hakeem was a monster. Shaq was a monster simply because his small array of moves was completely unstoppable.
    Webber and KG were a new breed, with KG being even more evolutionary. Their handles, their passing, the way they attacked off the bounce was special. Before them, your power forward banged and rebounded, and if your were lucky, hit jumpers. Now, a power forward has to be able to dribble drive and shoot, or he’s borderline useless in many people’s eyes.
    That’s how I see it as least. Dirk helped with the transition, but his game is so unique it’s hard to find people to pattern after him.

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    Coleman was breaking guys down off the dribble…

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    Aldridge is as close to Dirk as there is in The League.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Philo
    Not as much as Webber and KG. Some, but not as much. His amazing trait was the range that extended out to the three, and the body to be a bruiser one on one of the block. He faced up some, but he was very effective with his back to the basket going to the fadeaway that Larry Brown loved so much.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    The thing I loved most about those Sacto teams was how they shared and passed the ball. Nobody blew you away with their assist numbers, but you look across the board, in say, 2002-2003 –
    Chris Webber 5.2 APG
    Mike Bibby 5.2 APG
    Doug Christie 4.7 APG
    Vlade Divac 3.4 APG
    Anyways, carry on y’all

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Thanks Jukai/JT.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Allen: Maybe “much better” isn’t appropriate but “slightly better” isn’t appropriate either. Webber had a decent midrange J, but Dirk’s is wet, and he can get it off by catching-and-shooting, off the dribble, or by turnaround. Webber could shoot off the dribble to an extent, but he’d always have to square up, while Dirk can shoot leaners and fades and all types of shots. Offensive efficiency also has to come in here, because Webber chucked a LOT of shots he had no business chucking.
    Post game is nearly a wash, especially nowadays, although that really high arching right hook that Webber would throw puts him on top.
    I think you’re limiting Dirk’s faceup though. Especially in his earlier days, Dirk would take it to the rim, often too. He wasn’t dunking over peeps as often as Webber, but he could really throw it down, still does too. Webber’s offensive skills were augmented because of his amazing passing, you couldn’t rush towards Webber cause he’d make you pay. But facing up, Dirk was pretty good going to the basket.
    You know, Dirk isn’t just a jump shooter, contrary to popular belief.
    I think everything else is pretty heavily sided towards Webber though.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    ‘Latin America, where tobacco is an art’

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I never said Dirk was just a jump shooter.
    But his most potent offensive weapon is his jumper, and he gets his shots in one of two ways. Catch and iso or catch and shoot. In recent years, he’s adding backing poeple down at the free throw line to his iso moves, and that’s nice. But Webber was a roller on the pick, he was a popper on the pick, he could make a quick move off the cut, he could back you down on the block. Hell, he could even catch and shoot from three.
    Dirk, becuase of how consistently he shoots it and how incredibly efficient he is, is the better scorer. But, it’s not a wide margin at all. At least not to me, and I believe Webber had more “moves” or versatility.
    Anyway, I think the Spur should only have one player on the all star team, I don’t care what their record is.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Allen: Nash and Dirk definitely ran some pick and roll, and Dirk definitely slammed some down. I distinctly remember that, and that was one of the few reasons why you were excited to get Nash on the Phoenix Suns. Dirk is not just an iso guy, although it’s really not the main part of his arsenal, he did run the picks and he would catch it and lay it up down low. It’s just overshadowed by his jump shooting.
    Webber certainly moved better without the ball, that’s undeniable, but I don’t think it closes the margins that much.
    We’re just debating semantics at this point (“a little better” compared to “better”) so I’ll leave my point at that, but I think Dirk’s offense is a bit more varied than people believe.

  • http://slamonline.com tealish

    I hate injuries. After the Horry Heartbreak, I was really hoping for Webber and Co. to take another couple cracks at a ring. Chris’ passing, especially with his back to the basket, was a thing of beauty. Just pure elegance. That Kings team was fun to watch. Damnit, Horry…

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Allen – so which Spur should make the ASG?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    If I had to choose it would be Manu.
    Not because I think he’s better than Parker, but he’s more the face of the team right now, and his game is more suited to the ASG. Plus, he’s had more “big” moments this year.
    Personally, I would like to see some young cats rewarded this year for having amazing years.
    I would like to see Aldridge make it, although it’s unlikely. And of course, Monta.
    I think Melo is going to make it as a starter.
    So starters are Kobe, CP3, Melo, Dirk and Gasol as the Yao replacement.
    Reserves should be Deron, Blake, Love, Monta, Durant, Aldridge, Manu
    That’s the 12.
    Who do you think should make it in the East Enigmatic?

  • T-Money

    This is why I don’t like the comparison that much. Dirk didn’t fail to meet expectations at all, if anything, he exceeded them. He was just a tall, gangly, foreign kid who could shoot. His career will not be seen as a failure down the road, championships or not. C-Webb was the main star of the Fab 5, he was a freaking bid deal! / I feel that Dirk has somewhat maximized his potential as a basketball player, same thing with KG (for all his versatility, KG was never really a gifted scorer). C-Webb on the other hand, didn’t reach his full potential IMO. Like Vince.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Damn, just realized I left off Westbrook. He has to make it over Lamarcus, even if I love what Aldridge is doing.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    East I got –

    Rose, Wade, James, Stoudemire, Howard.
    Reserves – Rondo, Joe Johnson, Pierce, Bosh, Felton, Horford and umm… either KG or Bogut I guess. Can’t think of who should get that last spot. Probably forgetting someone.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    T-Money
    Like Vince? Wow, those are very harsh words.
    I never felt Webber cheated the game like Vince. I felt like he may not have had the calmness under pressure to beat the true greats and get his ring, but I never felt like he didn’t try, or cheated the game. He probably could have done more, but comparing him to Vince is too much for me.
    Dirk had heavy expectations. huge expecatations. People forget sometimes how big a deal that lost to the Warriors was and how much it changed his ceiling in people’e minds. He got a lot of credit for bouncing back from Nash’s departure and beating the Spurs to get to the Finals. He got some flak for the way his team folded up after game three, but still, quite a few people believed in him with that record the next year. But, for his team to collapse that much against the Warriors made peopel just look at him and his ceiling differently and some of it was just and some of it was unjust.
    I think Webber was still a great when the injury robbed him of a chance to solidify his legacy. He had just signed that big contract, and then boom, he gets hurt, is never right, and people just remember how he failed against the Lakers all those times. Dirk has had a chance to rebound, Webber never got his.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Scratch that, the Bucks are too terrible. No Bogut. Put Josh Smith in that last ASG spot. Dude’s been deserving for a while.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    But then you can’t have three Hawks in there and only two Celtics.
    Damn, the East it too top heavy. Eveyone under NY Knicks in the standings are horrible.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Elton Brand should make the east squad if Garnett doesn’t. But Garnett should be a shoe-in

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Tmoney sent me some embarrassing emails, which I am now threatening to post for everyone to see.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Allen: You’re on the ball with your last statement, but doesn’t the fact that Dirk was never injured and Dirk’s hype came later in his career add a distinct difference to Webber and Dirk’s career?

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    If only Boozer and Noah could keep their asses healthy, one of them might’ve had a shot.

  • T-Money

    Like Vince only in the sense of untapped potential. Not their actual make up. I truly believe that C-Webb is as talented overall as ANY 4s out there – Barkley, Malone, Dirk… maybe not TD, though. And yet, he’s never in the conversation with these dudes. Some of it is not his fault (injuries) but some of it is (no burning desire to obliterate opponents).

  • T-Money

    I don’t know how else to say it but CWebb wanted to look good, he didn’t want to make you lab bad. I think there’s a nuance there.

  • T-Money

    Tarzan: Ha!

  • ripslam

    I honestly have no idea how my Celts pulled that one out. The starting backcourt combined for 14 points. Yikes. Shaq is playing nicely though, and it’ll be refreshing to get Perk back.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Again, Jukai, the Hype was always there.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Bryan: Hey, I was responding to what Allen said, nothing more.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Just saying, not being a d*ck.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Chuck Hayes should be on AT LEAST the NBA’s All-Defensive 2nd Team. We all know he won’t though, because some random All-Star will take his place.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Hayes’ defense is incredible for ANY player in the league–much less a 6’6 “center.”

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Yo figman, can you PLEASE stop doing the ‘player1 and and player2 combined for 48 pts’ thing?! Its pointless, you dont say if one has 30 and the other 18 or what. Please just stop that, everything else is great, keep it up!

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Darko SERIOUSLY needs to get more touches. I’m not sure what it is–maybe his teammates still don’t trust him. There were several instances yesterday where the Wolves could have clearly posted him up, and they swung the ball around the perimeter instead. I mean, if you have a 7 footer with as much skill as Darko, you POST HIM UP! He only took 6 shots yesterday… The 10-15 shots that Luke Ridnour gets every night should be Darko’s (Luke IS playing pretty well though). The Wolves have a dangerous 3-4-5 combo; they just need to utilize their 5 more.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Quote from Mike Miller for all my haters – “I was the smallest guy on the court at all times,” Miller said. “So I played point with them. Then I always played point guard, all the way up until about college.”

  • Max

    Da Bear

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Haha, alright NBK, you were right: I still don’t think he’s the ideal guard for the team.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Haha fair enough

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    To my SLAM Brethren:
    Shall I now come with the REAL bullsh1t?

  • http://www.b-ballistics.com Darksaber

    I usually dislike player comparisons and the discussions they generate here, but Allenp’s Dirk vs Webber comment started a very reasoned and intetesting dialogue.
    Nice one to read, thanks.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Darksaber: Player comparisons are awesome.

  • http://www.b-ballistics.com Darksaber

    I know u luv them, Jukster (and lists, loads and loads of lists), but those discussions kinda bore me.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Want me to list my top 5 player comparisons?!?!

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    Noah J. Leaf
    Age: 25
    Address: 129 Woodmere Boulevard
    Woodmere, New York 11598
    Telephone: (516)-374-8523
    _____________________________________________Susan Leaf: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
    Occupation: Librarian
    Previous Address(es): Same
    Previous Telephone: (516)- 374-8523

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Hmmm. Address is old, telephone number is wrong, age is right, mother is divorced so that’ snot her last name. She is a librarian. Decent at best.

  • http://www.b-ballistics.com Darksaber

    @Jukai…. ha, good one.

    @Philo…. really, man? He got to you so bad yesterday that you put his personal info on Slamonline? Wow.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Just put Tim Hardaways killer crossover against the line.

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    My bad. Golding.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Dark: I guess I really got to him, it happens when you call out a liar. I’m interested in how he got the information, it is incredibly dated info, that’s my old house phone number from when I lived outside of Queens. Oh well, still nothing major found.

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    No Jukai.
    I got to you, remember? That is what you told people.
    Nothing you do gets to me. I have already told you that.
    But anyway, as far as I am concerned, we are even. That’s all.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Christopher Banks
    11 Broad St | Middletown, CT 06457
    (860) 704-0601

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Well, yeah you got to me, cause I don’t like guys who lie about things and then don’t admit to it when they’re called out. Those are the worst kind of people.
    Anyway, who is Samona?

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    Don’t know who you are talking about, Aaron.
    These are the reasons why I would NEVER put out my real info.
    Chris Banks is a name I made up. Call me a liar if you want to. It was after the rapper Lioyd Banks. His real name is Chris Lloyd. So I figured, Chris Banks, and chris.rbanks@gmail.com
    Again, call it what you want.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Mmm-hmmm.

  • JTaylor21

    EG is something special, dude reminds me of vinnie the microwave johnson except he’s a better shooter, he’s faster and more athletic. He also reminds me of DWade in the way he attacks the basket and weaves through the lane. I remember watching him during his freshman season in Indiana during the first 2 months dude was dropping 25ppg, it just took him a while to realize his potential in the NBA. I think the USA basketball exprience helped a lot and even though BGriff gets all the hype, EG has actually been the clips best player.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    JTaylor: I said he’d be better than OJ Mayo and peeps laughed at me. Now what!

  • JTaylor21

    Jukai, who in their right mind would think that an undersized jumpshooting 2 guard would be a better pro than an explosive slasher with great shooting ability. Who does he remind you of?

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Eric Gordon is an undersized 2 guard as well… He’s the second or third best player from that draft–and honestly, he’s not THAT far behind Derrick Rose, though they play completely different positions. I really wanted the Knicks to draft Gordon in ’08; I once even had a dream the Knicks traded for him… Isn’t that weird? True story, too. Like wtf.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    T-Money, are you also Z Money?

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    EG reminds me of Mitch Richmond, I don’t think he’s as good but similar – OJ could still be better then Gordon Just needs to find the right situation.

  • JTaylor21

    Great comparison NBK but I wholeheartedly disagree with you on the OJ could be better part. I mean he’s a very good shooter but he lacks the explosiveness and foot speed to be a great player. EG’s also a short 2 guard but being uber athletic negates being undersized.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    As an Illini fan, I HATED the sh*t outta Gordon since he pulled a fast one on Illinois and went to Indiana to play for that POS Kelvin Sampson. It was worse than when Villanueva went to UConn instead of Illinois. Plus I hate all things Indiana. Hoosiers, Pacers, Colts, you name it.
    So you know, I slept hard on the kid when he was in college, and his first two years in the L.
    But this summer when he played for team USA, I had no choice but to take the hater goggles off and recognize the realness.
    Dude is sick. Some people say Blake Griffin is the only reason to watch the Clips but nah, son. I love watching EJ do his thing too.
    BTW, y’all know Gordon and Rose played AAU ball together? And word was when EJ had committed to Illinois he was THISCLOSE to convincing Rose to go with him, but you know Calipari’s game was much stronger than Gordon’s.
    And I guess Sampson’s game was stronger than Weber.
    Anyways, Philo and Jukai, y’all are crazy. Night, peeps.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Oh man, Rich Michmond is a good comparison. I was gonna say a shorter Glen Rice, but Richmond is spot on.
    Gordon’s offensive repertoire is just superior to Mayo, and he’s a scrappy defender, which he needs to be cause of his height. Mayo’s big plus was his ability to pass the rock, and considering Memphis is playing him at the two spot, we can see how far that went. I can’t see a situation where Mayo would be more valuable than Gordon.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Jukai and phil are 12 yr old retards

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Jukai i’d also bet that in 2001 you wouldn’t of been able to name a situation where Steve Nash would be better then Stephon Marbury too…and me and you especially know how that worked out

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