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Friday, January 21st, 2011 at 8:40 am  |  217 responses

Post Up: Won’t Back Down

DRose leads the Bulls, while the Blazers prevail.

by Adam Figman | @afigman

Charlotte 100, Philadelphia 97

Two teams that’ll be battling it out for a playoff spot battled it out last night, with the Bobcats prevailing behind DJ Augustin’s 31 points and a late, clutch J from Gerald HendersonThad Young led the Sixers with 21, and though his squad probably should’ve taken the Magic the night before, it’s hard to argue they should’ve gotten the W last night, as Philly shot 45.9 percent from the field and just 21.4 percent from deep. The Bobcats now have a half-game lead over the Sixers, giving the Cats the inside track to the postseason while the 76ers sit at ninth.

Chicago 82, Dallas 77

Extra sloppy. Both groups shot below 37 percent from the floor, but it was the Bulls who came out on top, led by their All-Star point man Derrick Rose and his 26 points. DRose made a couple of clutch plays late, while his team jumped ahead of the Mavs in the final quarter and then made the necessary plays to earn the victory. Or the Mavs were just downright terrible. Either way. Dirk Nowitzki led Dallas with 19.

Portland 108, L.A. Clippers 93

On paper, this looks like just another road loss, but in reality, it holds some weight. As the Clippers make the slow, torturous uphill climb towards the Playoffs, it’s mid-level Western Conference squads like the Blazers that they’ll be chasing. So an L to Portland means they lose a full game on their direct competition, which is never a good thing. The Blazers just brought more fire last night, grabbing the lead in the second quarter and dominating the ball from there out. Wesley Matthews did work, putting in 28, while LaMarcus Aldridge matched that scoring figure and snatched 8 rebounds. The Blazers also shot 56.4 percent from the field, so, yeah, they were flowing pretty well. In the loss, Eric Gordon dropped 35 for the Clips.

Actual Stats: DJ Augustin: 31 points, 8 assists, 4 rebounds, 3 three-pointers, 1 steal

Moment of the Night: Will these ever get old? Ever?

(H/T: @Jose3030)

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  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    Not much to report on with these three games but they do add to the overall mix, regarding whats happening out there in BBALL LAND.
    ____
    * Miami have dropped 4 IN A ROW.
    * Spurs have won 7 – (Why is Phil worrying about Boston, he’s got bigger fish to fry in Texas!)
    * Suns are putting together a winning streak on their very very easy East coast run (4 wins in a row)
    * Brandon Jennings being swapped in the dunk comp is a good thing, and not just for his health – he’s not an ‘allstar dunker’ by any means.
    * Wes Matthews has made the Utah Jazz look silly.
    * Considering that the Lakers are behind the “even-steven Spurs”, Miami are enjoying their losing streak too much and every other teams best player (ie Dirk, Amare and Chris Paul) is just walking it in this week – Derrick Rose IS the MVP.

  • http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/ Anthony

    We still have a long way to go but as a Spurs fan i would love to watch a Lakers/Mavs in the 2nd round. (assuming they will finish 2nd and 3rd)

  • Bruno

    hey griffin has spoiled you and the rest of us too I think, that’s the only reason I see the no mention of his 20 and 18

  • http://www.google.com/news BETCATS

    Where are all the DJ doubters at???

  • MUBWAR

    Will you Bulls fan ever gonna stop that. This SG aka point guard Rose is not the MVP

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Over the last five Rose is putting up 28.8 7.4 and 7.2 with 1.8 blocks.

  • slamfan4life

    MUBWAR you hatin, DRose is murkin and playin good as hell and Chi’s record hasnt been this good since MJ….keep in mind that Chi hasn’t even had a complete roster all season…………DROSE=MVP

  • http://www.slamonline.com KulchaKris

    Co-Sign Bruno @ 9:29. @ Dacre, I mentioned in this space previously that the Lakers are going to have a tough time in the WCF, due to not having home court advantage against the Spurs….assuming they both get there. I will admit I doubted the Lakers in each of the past two years, and they proved me wrong. That said, they just don’t seem to have the desire to 3-peat.

  • will

    I find it funny when haters find every way not to consider Rose an MVP candidate. The point guards ultimate responsibility is to put wins on the board and the bulls are third in the east currently because of Rose. He played the whole first half setting up teammates that weren’t hitting their shots, including at least 4 wide open layup attempts that Asik missed. Coach Thibs told Rose at halftime to start shooting more and he responded by being more aggressive. He doesn’t care about his PER, assist to turnover ratio, its about winning, you gotta respect that.

  • zoom

    Thought this was an interesting quote from DWade: “We’re not the Boston Celtics. We’re not these kinds of teams that need to play together. We have guys that have the individual talent, and sometimes the individual talent, one-on-one ability is going to take over. Boston has more of guys that have great individual talent, but they feed off each other. We’re a new team and we’re still figuring it out.”

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Will, the guys with the best PER in the L (Bron, Paul, Wade), care about winning also. Also, i’m going to assume, rightly or wrongly, that that assist to turnover comment was directed at CP3.
    Look at New Orleans roster, and ask yourself how well CP must have played to have them competing in the West. New Orleans must have the highest win to talent ratio, or talent to win ratio, whatever it may be (if that was a real thing).

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Dwyane would never be mistaken as a scholar.

  • MUBWAR

    If you guys have seen the mid season report, Sekou and Rick Kamla both picked Lebron as the MVP. So Real NBA knowledge vs you guys, you chose.

  • tRay

    Before I start I am not a DRose hater lol just wanted to say that before all the Bulls fans start attacking like wild dogs but I love this dudes game but he is not the hands down MVP. Amar’e is def up there with him. As far as people saying Rose is more of a SG than a PG I’d agree only because he HAS to take on the scoring load due to his team’s current situation. Mind you that if the Bulls get a good 2 guard Rose won’t have to score as much.

  • MUBWAR

    I’ll give DRose MIP but not the MVP.

  • tRay

    Oh yeah and don’t count out LeBron although I’m sure that many Heat Haters will disagree he is still in the hunt for his third straight MVP. Some may say that he has help but you could say the same thing about Kobe when he won in 07-08 cuz he had a pretty good squad. Not a LeBron slurper or a Kobe hater just stating my opinion.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    MUBWAR: Sekou generally goes against the grain of thinking, and Rick Kamla is the NBA’s fantasy guy. So, you know, I’d choose better people to represent yer opinion.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Mubwar, your right, but i’m sure there are plenty of report cards from different outlets that have Rose as the MVP.
    If Bron hadn’t missed any time, then I would say he is the MVP, but I don’t think missing time and your team struggling should propel you further in the MVP race. I like Rose as the MVP right now because he has been there every night.
    On a side not to that, he shot 9-28 last night, before the army of Bulls fans come on here talking about how great he was.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    AllBAll
    You know, the precedent has been set that if you miss time and your team struggles, then that makes your MVP campaign stronger, right? I’m not saying I agree, it kind of depends on the situation, but that’s the precendent that has been set in recent history.
    And Rose was giving Dallas the business, but I was impressed with how Deng and Gibson and even Brewer frustrated Dirk. That was some good defense. The Mavs miss Caron so much, because after Dirk, only Terry is marginally good at getting his own shot, and JJ is not providing them ANYTHING right now with his MIA shot.
    I wanted Dallas to succeed this year because I think Dirk deserves it, but unless they get some more scoring punch it ain’t gonna happen.

  • MUBWAR

    Allball, Imagine 30 shots for point guard. I hate When Kobe takes 28 shots(as a SG) and it even looks worst on PG. Seriously let’s cool off on Rose and talk about real PG like Rondooooooo.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Rick Kamla got his job by winning the ESPN Fantasy league contest. ANd Sekou is 5’2″ 280LBS, you think his basketball knowledge carries any weight outside of the YMCA? Just because these people work for NBATV does not mean they have some pandora’s box of basketball knowledge. They also have that one guy who thinks all 12 spots on the All Star team are voted for by the fans. I’m 95% sure he is a weather man

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    Allball – both teams shot around 35% last night. it was a sloppy, grind it out game by both teams and all players. Dirk was 6 for 16. I’d much rather focus on the fact that in a sloppy, hard to score game, DRose had 26 points, 9 assists, 7 rebounds, and 2 blocks. And Rose is MVP soi far. I think the Knicks need to win More for Amare to win it. I think Dirk is out of the conversation for now because both him and Dallas are struggling. lebron is the only other contender at this point. And I think Rose doing it by himself with starters sitting out injured left and right is a little more impressive right now.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Allen, your right, I know that’s how it works, I just don’t agree with it.
    Peja will help Dallas, Terry, as good a scorer as he is, is not good around the basket. If Dirk is struggling, they won’t score many points.
    Mubwar, he didn’t take too many shots last night. Of the guys playing, only Deng can create any sort of offense, and he is limited 1 v 1. I have a problem with the number of shots he missed, not the number he took.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Diesel, Dirk’s 6-16 for 19 points is no worse than Rose 9-28 for 26. Any time you need 28 shots to get 26 points, it’s a negative.
    I agree, I said myself Rose is the MVP right now. Initially, I was with Allen in that I thought he should be the best at his position to be in the MVP talks, but right now he might be (the best at his position).
    I don’t think Amare’ is, Dirk got hurt, Bron got hurt, I like Rose.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    And as I stated before yesterday, one of these guys is gonna win MVP: Rose, Dirk, Deron, Paul, Amare. Many of you do not see half or all of these guys as legitimate MVPs. It does not matter: this is a weak year in terms of individual talent and someone who many will be deemed “unworthy” will win the award. Hopefully it wont spawn ten hate articles from a Muse in Mississippi (I’m just playin’, Allen, I love you bro!).
    Lebron has no chance of winning it if he can’t take the east. Lebron takes too many possessions off this year, and even though it’s clear Spoelstra has no idea what he’s doing and Lebron’s a big factor in the winning ways of that team (I know you’ll disagree EBoy, bear with my crazy opinions, I love you too, you douche with perhaps a bag), I doubt the MVP committee is going to say “Wow, so he plays with the third best player in the league and a top-5 level PF and he couldn’t even take the east. Well, let’s give him MVP!”
    I think Rondo is out of the running too after getting injured and not really seeing an effect on the Celtics and their winning ways.
    I think the ONLY two candidates that could win MVP that people would say “oh man, these guys DESERVE it!” are Durant and Howard….
    Durant needs to establish himself as the all-around star of that team, and push Westbrook away a bit. I’m not enamored with Westbrook and I feel that Westbrook’s emergence has a lot to do with two/three defenders keyed on Durant… but honestly, I’m of the minority on that belief and Westbrook looks so good at times, it’s pretty hard to argue. Without being the clear “best” on his team, Durant’s not gonna win it. He also really needs to have a more well-rounded game. He falls in love with the jumpshot too much. I mean, if there’s still an argument that Carmello is better than Durant, then Durant isn’t winning MVP, because what Durant brings to the table EXACTLY what Melo brings.
    As for Howard…. Honestly, I’m not really sure what he’d have to do to win MVP. If you look at his stats, it’s beastly… 21.2 on 57%, 13 rebounds, 1.2 steals and 2.2 blocks. Honestly, he may fall into the Rondo category of being unable to win it because his team was doing so bad before the trade and so good now. I’ll let you guys figure out how Howard can swingle votes his way.
    I’d also love to say Manu deserves some MVP praise, but the player running the best team and hitting the clutch shots comes secondary to a white guy who isn’t as skilled as others in the NBA. And uh, we don’t want to open THAT can of worms again.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    NBK
    So, are you one of those people who think that without playing basketball you cannot have a true understanding of the game?

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    AllBall – that was my point of mentioning Dirk – to show that the other team’s star struggled too. EVERYONE struggled last night. Yet Rose still found a way to put points up. And its not always a negative. Sometimes the shots aren’t falling in games like this and you just need to keep shooting. Rose was the only Bulls player to score DOUBLE DIGITS. Should he have just kept deferring to them and lose the game?

  • lexluther703

    If you don’t think DRose is front runner for MVP right now, you’re ignorant. He’s got a brand new team with a brand new ROOKIE coach playing at a high level. He’s winning games without Boozer and Noah, two of the best bigs in the league, and kept his team afloat with clutch play. Bottom line, whether you think his stats aren’t ‘efficient’ enough, or he’s really a shooting guard, etc., dud is putting the team on his back and taking them further than any other player in the league. Bron’s on a 4 game losing streak, Amare and the Knicks flamed out quicker than they were ever in the spotlight, Dirk’s been injured. There is no debate that Rose is playing like a top 3 point in the league, and is a front runner for the MVP. Haters hate all you need to, but your hate doesn’t change the fact that dude has been ballin lights out all season. C’MON SON

  • http://yahoo.com The Ambassador

    Since no one can agree that Derrick Rose is the MVP lets give it to DWIGHT HOWARD then.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    ALLBALL
    I didn’t say you had to be the best at your position.
    I said you had to be in the conversation for best OVERALL in the league.
    Because Nash was quite possibly the best at his position when he won his MVPs. He just wasn’t close to the best overall.
    Anyway, that is my random preference and doesn’t hold any weight in the real world.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    CP3 shot 3-13 against memphis earlier in the season – we’re you as concerned then too AllBall?

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Diesel, how can 26 on 28 points possibly be a positive? Did you read my 11:51 comment? I said there I have no problem with the number of shots, I have the problem with only 9 makes. So no, he should not have deferred.

  • MUBWAR

    Durant isn’t even the best player on his team. And Melo disrespected him the other night, so thank you for yearly report Jukai

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Hahaha no problem MUBWAR.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Diesel, they have played Memphis once this year, and he was 6-14. If he was 3-13 yeah, I would be concerned. He was 1-8 against Toronto, which is a lot worse, and yeah I was concerned.
    Allen, my bad, I think a legitimate case for Rose as best in the L can be made based on this season. Yeah, same as my random preference of playing 80+ games, holds no weight, but matters to me.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    Not going to touch CP3 shooting 3 for 13 in a loss against memphis are we?

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    Sorry, just saw you responded

  • http://slamonline.com tealish

    Allball speaks the truth. Rose had a huge shot late in the game after a some great JKidd defense, but 9 for 28 is not a positive.
    But, the guy is still in the MVP conversation based on a ‘weak individual year’.

  • JTaylor21

    Starbury’s sane twin was at it again. Why do DRose’s fans get mad whenever someone points out how many shots it takes for him to score? He’s not one of those guys that can’t dominate a game efficiently, he’s the kind that needs 25 shots to score 30pts ala Kobe and AI.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Diesel where are you getting that info from btw? It’s not right, but it’s cool, just took me a bit to double check, cos from watching all there games I could have sworn they only played Memphis once, which was Wednesday.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Allen in a sense yes I am. You can’t understand the nuances of the game without playing. I have played 3 sports on a very competitive level throughout most my life. Basketball, Baseball, Soccer (and golf in HS). I never played football, I understand the game, but I don’t actually know the subtlety’s that go into becoming a “great player” or anything more then the basic rules and strategies. Nothing more in-depth then what you learn playing madden. I wouldn’t know the correct fundamentals on most things football, just like someone who never played or was coached in competitive basketball will know of all the things that go into making a successful player. Or even what things to look at that separate two similar players from one another in terms of fundamentals or potential. Its like me trying to give the world pointers on how to be a journalist, even though level 2 college english is as far as my writing knowledge extends.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Tealish is right.
    Nobody, besides Blake, is just beasting this year, and Blake plays for a crap team, and everybody has decided that you can’t by MVP on a crap team. ( I don’t like this rule.)
    Rose is beasting the most out of everybody who plays for a winner, so given the way MVP voting has worked in recent years, he should be the frontrunner. If somebody else, like Dwight or LeBron or Dirk, goes into ultra beast mode in the second half of the season, Rose will have more of a challenge, but right now, he’s the clear favorite. At first I had LeBron, but last night won me over to Rose. Even though he missed a LOT of shots, he was confident down the stretch, impossible to keep out of the lane, and he created opportunities, if not buckets, for his teammates.
    And Dallas was playing great defense on everybody but him.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    Jtaylor – its frustrating to deal with you guys when Rose gets done putting up 26,9, & 7 with 2 blocks on a way to a victory over one of those supposed “tough” teams in the west that peopel like AllBall are using as an excuse for their teams worse record…all of this without Noah or Boozer. And instead of giving the guy props, the first thing out of everyone’s mouth is “wow what a bad shooting percentage”

  • MUBWAR

    What with this year has a weak individual year. Let’s take a look at Lebron’s year so far. 25.6 ppg 7.1 apg 7.2 rpg 1.5spg on 48% from the field and 36% from deep.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    All that sh*t about Rose, I can’t take it anymore :P . It’s always the same thing, ‘he’s not a REAL PG.’ ‘He shoots too much’. ‘He doesn’t have enough assists’. ‘His defense is not good enough’or ‘I want my PG to (do something Rose isn’t doing right in their eyes). Well, I want MY PG to WIN and that’s exactly what Rose is doing, The bulls are 29-14, without Boozer in the beginning and now without Noah. He’s avg almost 25 pts, 8 assist, 5 boards, he’s good at shooting 3′s now (something else people were crying about) his defense is improving by the game, he’s been very clutch. I mean, what do you want? C’mon now, this is getting ridiculous, I’m not saying Rose is Jesus, but damn is he good and if you won’t see it, that’s your loss, you’re missing out on something awesome.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    All that sh*t about Rose, I can’t take it anymore . It’s always the same thing, ‘he’s not a REAL PG.’ ‘He shoots too much’. ‘He doesn’t have enough assists’. ‘His defense is not good enough’or ‘I want my PG to (do something Rose isn’t doing right in their eyes). Well, I want MY PG to WIN and that’s exactly what Rose is doing, The bulls are 29-14, without Boozer in the beginning and now without Noah. He’s avg almost 25 pts, 8 assist, 5 boards, he’s good at shooting 3’s now (something else people were crying about) his defense is improving by the game, he’s been very clutch. I mean, what do you want? C’mon now, this is getting ridiculous, I’m not saying Rose is Jesus, but damn is he good and if you won’t see it, that’s your loss, you’re missing out on something awesome.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    JTaylor
    You’re offbase.
    Both Kobe and AI are capable of dominating even without that many shots if their shots are falling.
    The difference is that they have the mentality where they will keep shooting whether they are making or missing. Some cats don’t have that mental toughness or selfishness, depending on your point of view.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Dies, I had just finished saying Rose is the MVP, and I added that 9-28 is not a positive. It’s not like I was just hating on the guy.
    I thought we had moved past this SOS argument?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    NBK
    That’s interesting.
    I never played basketball in high school or college for a team. I learned the basics in a very competitive rec league, then watched the game myself. I don’t think I have the same level of knowledge as someone who has been immersed in the game, but I think I can “understand” the game, if that makes sense. Besides, what level do you have to get coaching at to truly understand the game?
    And, back in the day, most journalists learned on the job through observations and practice. It is only recently that schooling has become a requirement.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    ALLBALL
    Don’t pay Diesel any mind. Ask him when was the last time he had something nice to say about Allen Iverson without bringing up his negatives as well?

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    I’m convinced some of you all just catch the box score and don’t even watch the Bulls games.
    Yes, my dude took 28 shots to score 26 points.
    No, it’s not very efficient.
    But with Boozer out and Deng struggling, Rose had to put some points up.
    And f*ck efficiency, got damn it, he got them the W.
    His playing balling out of control right now.
    AllBall finally gets it.
    Rose has now moved to my number 2 choice for MVP. LeBron is still number 1.
    Oh, and Thibs is my choice for COY. No doubt.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    Fair enough AllBall. I’ll drop it. I’m in a good mood today so I don’t want to turn today’s post into another Bulls/Heat discussion. I will say that i don’t think the East is a clear cut as eevryone thinks it is. I think most peopel assumed Boston, Miami, and Orlando top 3 with Bulls and Atlanta 4 & 5. I think that could be mixed up big time before its all said and done.

  • JTaylor21

    AllenP, read my post again. I said that he can’t dominate efficiently, I didn’t say he doesn’t dominate at all. Like you pointed out Kobe and AI dominate games even when they are shooting badly, the same thing with DRose. There are only a hadful of guys in the league who can dominate efficiently which means they need only 20-25 shots to get their 40. It’s not necessarily a bad thing to be inefficient, I tend to give more props to the guys that domiante without having to take a boatload of shots.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    Allen – I have never had a discussion about AI on these threads. I think one time in a conversation about Carmelo I may have said something along the lines of, Carmelo can score, but he’s not a winner, just like AI. otherwise I have never mentioned AI. Ever.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    I think it depends on what your trying to do. Like someone in your situation I would be cool with you and your basketball opinion on most things up until you get on television and giving your opinion to the world as expert analysis, or start trying to be a legitimate scout or coach. If your involved in the game, and around legitimate coaching/insight I think it just takes time. Nobody is ever going to fully understand every single aspect of the sport I’m not trying to say that. But just things like nationally televised opinions by people whose words mean little more then Mick the Baker grind my gears. Sorry for the rant, if you read it, did it make sense?

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Allen, I don’t think the level matters, I think you just have to play.

  • JTaylor21

    Let me take back the dominating part because I don’t think you can qualify the season Rose’s having as a dominating season. Wilt, MJ, Big O, Shaq, KG, and a few others had dominating seasons, his season isn’t up to par.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    ALlen: Not to NITPICK, but I made a humongous post about how the competition is weak, like, 300 words… and Tealish follows up with a 3-word “comp is weak” post and you give him the credit? I work too hard, and get paid nothing for my time!!!!

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Enigmatic, let’s not talk box scores, that’s all Diesel has seen of CP this year, and he feels qualified to talk about it.
    By ‘finally get it’, what do you mean? PER is still a great stat, efficiency is still very important. I have just started to really focus on Rose in all aspects lately, and it’s clear to me he is in the same tier as CP/D Will, and has been the best PG so far this season. That doesn’t mean that Chris Paul’s PER or efficiency is worthless, or that Deron hasn’t been playing great as usual.
    Diesel, Atlanta will not be in the top 3, that’s for sure. As useless as you think SOS is, if the Bulls start a rough stretch against teams who are fully healthy, they may struggle to hold onto the 3rd spot.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    JTaylor21: Bro, you need to understand, there is NO ONE ELSE worthy of MVP. It’s Most Valuable Player of a season. You don’t skip it if you feel no one is ‘dominating’

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    I’m sorry but I just cannot see how Derrick Rose has been a better player then Deron Williams this season. I can see how you would consider him “more valuable” but better? how, in what way? he scores more? Cuz Deron puts EFFICIENT 30 and 10′s together when his team needs em, their records are seperated by 1 loss and 2 wins. Someone put a logical argument together, cuz I don’t see it.

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    Correction AllBall – I’ve watched 3 NO games this year. Which I’m absolutely going to pat myself on the back for considering I heard yesterday that they’re only on national TV once? is that right?

  • jumpman

    Rose just wins. I’ll give him that. He don’t give a damn about the stats just as long as they get the W. Thing is he doesn’t kill the team, he genuinely tries to get the team going. If they can’t, then he takes over and tries to do whatever for the W. For me, it’s too close on whether it’s LeBron or Rose for MVP right now.

  • JTaylor21

    There’s no way DRose’s been the best PG so far, no way. The title still goes to DWill mainly because he’s balling and CP is not 100%. Heck if we are strictly talking PGs, Rondo’s been better and Russ is right there with DRose. People don’t understand how good Russ has been this year and I hate when people try to discreet him by saying that KD attracting defense’s attention is the reason for his stellar play. That’s a big pile of BS!

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    AllBall – by saying you finally get it, I just meant you’re finally giving Rose his props and no longer rolling with the “he’s overrated” crowd.
    And yes, efficiency is important, but I’d argue not the only or even the most important aspect of one’s game.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    This Derrick Rose debate, day in and day out, is becoming as boring as the Kobe/Bron debate from.

  • jumpman

    ^ I’d still have LeBron but very close. Earlier in the season I had D-Will

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    NBK
    I have Rose over Deron because he’s winning more games with less overall talent. Based solely on play, Deron has been more efficient and just as impressive, to me. But, his team has lost too many games they should have won, and that’s on him as the leader. So, no MVP.
    Personally, I think too much weight is given to having played the game when deciding who is allowed to discuss sports and give opinions. I think taht if you want to coach, or scout, you can learn a lot about basketball, or anything, by diligent study.
    You may not understand the emotions involved, or the level of dedication it takes to be a player, but you can understand the nuances of the game even without participating on the highest level.
    And there are lots of people who participated on the highest level who have no idea about the nuances of the game.
    But, I do understand you point. It’s kind of like being a virgin, and trying to be a s)ex coach. Yeah, you might have read the literature and watched the videos, but some things you only learn by doing. I get it.

  • JTaylor21

    Jukai, when did I ever say that we should skip it? All I’m saying is that DRose’s isn’t having a dominant season, can you say with a straight face that his season ranks right up there with Kareem’s 71 MVP season, LBird’s 84 MVP season, MJ’s 87 MVP season, Hakeem’s 93 MVP season, KG’s 03 MVP season, and LeBron’s 09 MVP season. He’s having a great year but not as great a year as the kind past MVPs put up.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Co sign Eboy.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    JTaylor – you’re way too caught up in what you think a point guard “should” play like.
    By your reasoning, Dirk shouldn’t have won MVP that year because he doesn’t play like a Power Forward “should”.
    Also, you said it yourself, we’ve seen the scoring point guard before. So why is it now that Rose is doing it, he’s not a true point.
    Well, what’s a true point guard? Someone who doesn’t take 20 shots a game?
    Was Bob Cousy not a true point guard? He averaged 18 FGAs per game for his career.
    Tiny Archibald, take away his Celtics years and he averaged 18.6 FGAs per game.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    nbk, Deron has had 30/10 3 times this year, 2 of them very efficient (31/14 on 12-18, 30,11 on 8-16). He has had one where he shot 42%.
    His team has a worse record, and a lot more talent, I know you don’t value SOS, but Chicago’s/Utah’s are similar, Utah has had the 9th easiest, Chicago the 5th.
    Derrick is a better scorer & rebounder, and he is shooting only 1 % point worse, Deron is at 46%, Rose at 45%. From 3 Rose is at 38%, as is Deron.
    They both average 1 steal, Derrick almost averages 1 block, and is slightly higher in TO’s.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Diesel, lol, that’s fair. They haven’t been on national TV once yet (unless you count NBATV).
    Enigmatic, my bad for taking offense, Derrick is not over rated. We differ big time on the importance of efficiency though. I think it’s one of the most under rated parts of the game.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Hey Allen, thanks for organizing my own thoughts for me lol. makes more sense then it did in the old skull there..

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    funny AllBall, the one stat everyone brings up about PG’s, especially here (rightly so) seems oddly absent from your last comment. Unless ofcourse being a PG is about scoring, rebounding, stealing and blocking only.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Sorry nbk, I don’t know why I didn’t include it, it actually has nothing to do with the fact that Deron averages more lol. It’s clear he is the superior passer/team runner.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    But, we all know that, so I was trying to convince you of what Derrick can do just as well/better than Deron.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Lol I know just givin you sh*t, still doesn’t show me how Derrick Rose is having a better season. Especially considering there are no advanced stats that have Rose as better then Williams, not a single one.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Your the man for advanced stats, and I place a lot of value in them. How does CP match-up?

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Advanced stat wise he is the best PG in the league. But he doesn’t shoot enough IMO to get the credit, his aggression has taken a major dive, he is shooting the lowest number of FGA in his career. (lowest minutes too though) – he is basically the more efficient PG in the league, whose production takes a major sh*t because he doesn’t dominate games like he should/can

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    @jtaylor , MJ’s 87 MVP? I think you mean Mj’s 1988 MVP.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Exactly NBK.
    Although, I would say “dominate” through scoring. He does “dominate” in other ways.

  • Keith Bogans

    stop lookin at the boxscore and just watch the game. I rather have Rose take those shot and win then to see him shot 10 shots and lose. If theres no other scoring option what are you suppose to do?

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Yeah Allen, I just think if he was more aggressive offensively, like looking for his own scoring opportunity, that he would be more effective at everything else on that end of the floor, if that’s possible. Like 2007-08 when he was scoring 20 PER 36 minutes compared to his 16 PER 36 now, opened up more passing lanes for him. 11.1 AP 36 minutes, to 9.8 now. Doesn’t sound like much but that is the difference between losing by 5 and winning by 1.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    You know what’s crazy, Blake’s stats for 2011, I know it’s just nine games but 26.9 (50% shooting, 67% FT), 14.1 rebs and 4.2 assists and the Clips are 6-3. That’s just nasty. Imagine what Blake numbers could be like next year. This guy could make a run at MVP next year if the Clips make on OKC like improvement, they’ve got the pieces, so…

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    Looking at those numbers again, Holy sh*t, he’s a rookie! Talking about dominant, I don’t know how great he can be.

  • MUBWAR

    Can’t we just called this guy Most Improve Player and leave it at that. I know all of Chicago is alive again thanks to this dude but that isn’t enough to ride his c0ck all season long. Come on now

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    I’ve been sayin, the day Blake Griffin plays in the playoffs is the day he makes the jump to top 5 player in the league. I already think he is top 6 or 7 PF (Amar’e, Bosh, Gasol, Nowitzki, KG, ?)

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Blake should make a run at MVP this year.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    How much wood does a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could have someone else take his sat?

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    I know Blake Griffin is an amazing once in a lifetime talent, but let’s put things into a SLIGHT perspective: he’s the oldest rookie we’ve had since 2000 when Kenyon Martin came into the league (unless Bogut was older, which I don’t think so but I’m not positive).

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Wow. Never a shortage of hyperbole in here.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    And even though Blake started the season with a bang, with all those crazy dunks and stuff, he avg like 18 and 12. With most super rookies, they cool off a little because the coaches start gameplanning for them and Blake already gets double teamed alot but he has now problem giving the ball up when he sees there’s nothing there. He has such a good feel for the game and the Clips barely, if ever, run any plays for him. +He’s so talented and he works like Nick Collison, like he’s just in the NBA making a living off hustle plays.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    *now = no

  • MUBWAR

    Soo right Bryan

  • http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bulls-confidential/2011 Diesel

    Tarzan’s right. Let’s all respect the morally incorruptible institution that is college athletics. DRose was the first and last player to cheat, be exploited, and watch others profit from it. He is the only player in the NBA today that didn’t get there the right way. Damn you DRose.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    The last time a rookie big put up offensive stats like this was Tim Duncan. And that was without the incredible dunks, and turning around the entire climate of a horrible franchise. (The Spurs were not horrible. They were tanking.)
    Blake has made Baron Davis care about basketball and made Vinny Del Negro appear competent. And he’s putting up 22 and 13. Dude is valuable. Now, if he gets that team into position to compete for a playoffs spot, in his rookie year, with all those impediments, why shouldn’t he be considered.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Because you won’t consider Amare for essentially the same reasons.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Amar’e is putting up 26 and 9 in the same system he already put up the same numbers in. You can’t see the difference between 26 and 9 in NYK with D’Antoni and a P&R PG, compared to what Blake is doing with Vinny “my teams finish at .500″ Del Negro on 22 and 13? Plus for the Clippers to get the 8 seed in the West they will probably have a record very comparable to NY in the ultra weak after the top 5 East.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    To me, Amare’s turnaround isn’t as spectacular because of talent and system around him, and because he’s basically putting the same numbers he put up in year 3, although with more blocks. But, I never said Amare couldn’t be MVP. I said the Knicks will not “scare” any contender in the first round.
    Blake is a rookie! He’s just getting adjusted to the NBA game, and yet he’s dominating. Plus he plays for arguably the worst managed franchise in the league. For the early part of hte year, he had a point guard who was actively ignoring him!
    I will admit, I am biased towards Blake because I an so impressed with his hustle and effort on the glass. He and Amare both aren’t that good on defense, but somehow the way Blake hustles constantly makes him more palatable. It’s kind of like the David Lee effect, except Blake has the ability to just dominate people on the block.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    No I see the difference NBK. One of the differences it the Win percentage right now. This is based on “if they get to .500, if they get to the playoffs” etc. All I’m saying is, Amare turned the Knicks around and should get a look. If we’re comparing talent the clippers win in my opinion. EG, Baron, Blake, Randy Foye, Jordan come on. I get it Blake Griffin is amazing. But he’s not an MVP candidate. If he is , so is Kevin Love.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    No I see the difference NBK. One of the differences it the Win percentage right now. This is based on “if they get to .500, if they get to the playoffs” etc. All I’m saying is, Amare turned the Knicks around and should get a look. If we’re comparing talent the clippers win in my opinion. EG, Baron, Blake, Randy Foye, Jordan come on. I get it Blake Griffin is amazing. But he’s not an MVP candidate. If he is , so is Kevin Love.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Sorry for the double post.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    KLove is not on the same level as Blake Griffin, no matter what his stats are. They aren’t the same caliber of player, at all. That’s why I would never see Love as the MVP. Besides, Love isn’t a rookie! A rookie!

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    And Blake is only 21. Al Thornton was like 23 or 24 when he got drafted, and I know Tim Duncan was older than 21.
    That’s for the person who said Blake is the oldest rookie ever.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    That’s just insane to me. He’s not on the same level why? Because he’s not as athletic or explosive?

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    I’m not knocking Blake either, or boosting up Kevin Love. I love Blake, he’s been phenomenal. I think people are getting a little crazy about this stuff though. They’re 16 and 26. He’s going to be a monster for many years, but let’s not get ahead of ourselves.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    The Clippers are the youngest team in the league. And IF the clipper get to the playoffs (when was the last time a .500 team made the playoffs in the West?) then Griffin deserves legitimate MVP consideration, Amar’e does too, neither will, or should win. Just if Griffin gets that Clippers team to the playoffs it is going to be viewed by most as a bigger achievement then getting the Knicks there. (if the knicks get anything worse then the 6 seed, IMO, they are underachieving – actually the Knicks aren’t any better then I had them being in the preseason) But the Clippers look good right now, and if they get to the playoffs, idk how many people will say they saw that coming.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Just because people forgot how good Blake was in college doesn’t mean the Clippers are overachieving. He was a monster then, he missed a year and is back as strong as ever. Plus Del Negro as bad as he is, is an upgrade over Dunleavey. Baron Davis is rounding into form which, to me, is the real reason for the clippers resurgence.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Nah, because Love can’t score like Blake. Period. Love is a great jump shooter, hustles hard on the glass, but he can’t score in iso situations like Blake can, nor does he demand the same attention rolling to the basket, nor does he run the floor like Blake.
    He’s no less athletic than Tim Duncan was coming out of school, although Love is shorter. But, Duncan scored on the block with the best, and only got better as his career continued.
    Right now, Love isn’t the scorer Blake is, and I think the difference is huge. And Blake still has room to grow.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    The Clippers. I can’t think of the last time I so badly wanted a team to succeed but really wanted their coach and owner to fail…

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Enigmatic
    I can. New York. Lol.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    Bryan, So your saying you expected Blake Griffin to be the best player on a playoff team coming out of college? in his rookie year?

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    After watching Blake Griffin in college, I half jokingly comparing him to Wilt Chamberlain. In this very column I deferred conversations about NBA ball to talk about Blake and his exploits at OK. So yes, I did think he would be at least a 20 and 10 right out of the gate. And since only about 5 players get those numbers yearly, I’d say I thought he would be the best player on an NBA roster right out of the gate. What I didn’t know was what team would get him, so the playoff contender part I can’t answer. But he’d be the best power forward on just about any team you’d want to place him on and at worst 3rd best player on any team in the entire NBA.

  • http://valleyofthesuns.com/2011/01/07/amare-stoudemire-same-player-advanced-stats/ nbk

    that’s fair

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Sorry, I meant Blake Griffin was the oldest FIRST draft pick. He would be a junior in college this year. Other phenoms, such as Lebron, Melo, Rose, Durant, Bryant, Garnett, they all had either one year of college or no college at all.
    I don’t see the reason that Blake Griffin should get MVP respect because he’s a rookie… I mean, that’s bizarre, that should be thrown out the window. He’s beasting, but I also think people are hating on the Clips a bit too much. Remember last year, the Clippers were supposed to be a playoff 8th seed and then they weren’t. People forgot the talent that team had, hell, even earlier in the season my father asked me “you know, you look at the starting five for the Clippers, and you wonder why they aren’t doing better!”
    Yeah, Blake Griffin has made Baron Davis care about BBall again, and I guess making your teammates better counts for something… but didn’t Baron Davis have the makings for a top-15 all-time point guard?
    Honestly, I think Blake Griffin is worth all the hype in the world, so I probably put too much stock in this post, but I think MVP candidate is probably a bit much.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Actually, he would be a senior. He came out as a sophomore and was injured for one year. So yeah, Griffin’s older than most rookie phenoms we’ve seen recently.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    People try to bag on D rose for his shooting percentages and efficiency but something that goes unnoticed is how he is becoming more of a complete player offensively and defensively on a nightly basis, and D- will is not that efficient. his Per isnt even that much better than Roses and I dont think its better than westbrooks’ or pauls’.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Quote from a True Hoop article about the possibility of a franchise player tag in basketball:
    ““The last CBA, we fought hard to limit the influence of agents through a rookie salary scale and through max salary caps,” another GM said. “But agents have proven to be clever. They’ve adapted. And the new way they are asserting power is by trying to aggregate their star players on the same team. Agents don’t have the best interest of the league. I’m not even sure they have the best interest of their own players. It’s about power and money.”
    Are we to believe the owners and GMs are not about “power and money”?
    I don’t know how I feel about a franchise player tag. My main complaint is that it removes long term security in a job where one injury can greatly reduce your earning potential. Plus, the story says the owners mainly want it because they want to control players more.
    Also, the small market fears don’t make sense when you see small market teams thrive if they can surround their players with good talent through good management. It seems like the owners are once again look to protect themselves from their own foolishness, and hampering the players rights to get it down.
    Then again, they have to pay a lot of money for that new benefit.

  • the nerve

    muthafukka im eel

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    I actually miss the days when it was just Rose vs. Rondo debates.
    Now it’s like “hmm..what point guard should we compare Rose to today?”

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Anything giving the owners more power over players is not ok with me. Especially since no one holds a gun to their head to sign these stupid contracts.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    Spurs looking for revenge tonight. ….. Will the ‘fans’ in denver just boo all game long, no matter what happens?

  • http://shinefluid@aol.com just bcuz

    d.rose for MVP!! as i always say…but on another note WHY NO LOVE FOR LAMARCUS ALDRIGE?? honestly he has carried his team and they are in the playoffs. while everyone is enamored with k.love and blakes numbers both of those teams are WAAAAAAY under .500
    winnig has to account for something and everytime i watch a blazers game its alot of lamarcus aldrige

  • http://shinefluid@aol.com just bcuz

    oh i say that to say he should be in the al star game

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    This is a direct quote I got off of SI’s ‘court vision’ (latest news around the league): ‘I wonder how that team would play if Chris Paul were its point guard. That’s not a shot at Rose, who made my midseason MVP ballot (No. 4). But i’m guessing Paul could get the same offensive efficiency (i.e points per possession) mark out of that lineup without taking 28 shots.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    AllBall: I don’t think there is a point guard in the league who could have helped the Bulls as much as Rose has this season. And that’s coming from a person who still thinks CP3 is the best point in the league.
    The bulls have been suffering through injuries this entire season, and what has really benefited them is having a star who can score no matter what defenses he sees. Yes, he is a point guard and he certainly could be creating more offense for his teammates, for them to have the record they have, it’s mostly because Rose has had a few “f this, I’m dropping 10 in this quarter” games which has kept them afloat.
    Something Chris Paul is having trouble with.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Jukai, even though I agree with you, the Rose horse has been beaten just to death. Nothing is changing anyone’s mind on the kid. Especially AllBall, who obviously can’t get enough of Chris Paul. Before advanced stats became known and point guard who put up 25 and 8 would be known as a monster and nothing else.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    By and, I meant any.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Bryan, if you don’t want to talk about ‘the big PG debate’, then don’t? It’s pretty clear that I am biased towards CP, I just thought that was an interesting quote off SI, even though I don’t agree with it.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Bryan: the big problem is, the league is so god damn point guard heavy. Deron, Paul, Rose, Rondo, Parker, Nash, Kidd, Westbrook, Curry, Jennings, Davis, Felton, Billups, good lord there is an argument for every single one of those guys to make the all-star team. Because there are so many points striving for recognition, arguments are gonna come up. ’tis an unfortunate side effect of an exciting league.
    I don’t mind the roundabout never ending debates. I’m also very bored today. Very.

  • the nerve

    i thought i told u u cant say nuttin w/o phil permission

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    i thout i tol u i cun undustund u

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    I don’t care about the pg debate, I am down with that. But this particular CP vs DRose debate is tired. CP’s numbers are in no way comparable to Rose’s. Rose is scoring more when his team needs him to, he’s winning more and his assists are barely off by less than 2. The steals are huge though, I’ll give him that.

  • the nerve

    relax boy b4 i call ur boss. u got 2 bosses

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    CP’s overall numbers are better than Rose’s’ if you look at the whole box score. The only thing Rose is better at is scoring, and a slight edge in rebounding. 29 wins to 27 is marginal, even more so when you consider their schedules. For you to say they can’t be compared is just incorrect.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    And now your in the debate lol.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Overall numbers? His scoring and rebounding are better, his shotblocking is better CP is better for assists and steals and 3 point percentage.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    and FT%, 3FG %, Less turn overs, way higher assist to turnover ratio. So CP is better in more facets, you are just placing more emphasis on scoring.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    In my opinion, CP3 is a better player, but he’s not an MVP candidate because he’s not going out of what he’s comfortable with. Rose has gone out of what he’s comfortable with, scoring and shooting and taking shots he normally doesn’t because he keeps losing his second and third scoring options.
    So there. One is better, one is more valuable. Can we all get along?

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Defensively, CP is elite, Derrick is not.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    In this instance the assists are a sign of deference when he needs to be more aggressive. He’s just not playing as well as Rose is and it’s not even a debate. He’s not imposing his will on games the way he’s capable and the way Rose is. That’s not something the stats can tell you.

  • the nerve

    ya betta run. snitch

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Cp3 is elite defensively? So was Allen Iverson then. CP3 is the better player, which is also not debatable. Which is why his season is a disappointment to me, he’s not playing nearly up the level he’s capable.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Defensively, CP is NOT elite, defensively, CP3 sort of sucks. I don’t know where this idea that CP3 is a great defender came from. CP3 gets blown on isos so much it’s not even funny. Yeah, he’s an INSANE ball thief cause he’s fast and his court vision is immense… and he also calls out all their defensive plays, he’s the coordinator… but elite? oh man, no.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Yeah, sorry AllBall, but CP3 is not an elite defender.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Jukai, CP has been an elite on ball defender this season. I don’t know what the advancded stats say (nbk), but in terms of holding his man under his average and forcing turn overs then yes, he has been elite.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Sorry, that was to all of you, not just Juks.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    AllBall: C’mon son, I got league pass and I try to watch New Orleans as much as I can. CP3 has gotten burned, and his holding his man under their averages MAY have to do with the bigs New Orleans has on their team. When there is no weakside help, Chris Paul gets hurt. I mean, I loved watching Nash and Paul battles back in the day, because neither could guard each other and they’d all have field days.
    Sorry. Chris Paul ain’t elite. He’s better defensively than Rose, but that’s it. He’s no Westbrook/Rondo.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    And speaking of advanced stats, CP3′s defensive win share has SPIRALED down with the departure of Chandler: when Chandler was a Hornet, he created the bulk of his offense by pick and roll with CP3, so he was always with CP3. Now that they have Okafor, who can create more offense by himself (and also isn’t as great of a pick-and-roll player), their minutes are more spread and his DSW has gone DOWN.
    Just saying.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Bryan, its definitely debatable. Jukai, tell me the games were you feel like CP3 was getting consistently burned? Okafor is a good defender, but West and Jay Smith are not. Chris Paul has been staying in front of his man, and doing a better job of getting round screen rolls, especially over the last 15-20 games.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Well, Jukai, to be fair the reason why I love watching Rose vs. Rondo is because neither is capable of stopping the other either. Rondo causes a couple of Rose turnovers, and Rose will block a couple of Rondo shots every now and then, but Rondo cannot defend Rose.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Okafor doesn’t create any offense by himself! Not this season. Chandler is great defensively, Okafor is good, and your right, he is no where near as effective on the P & R.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    But I will defer in that him holding his match-up under his average a lot could be due to their slow pace of play.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Enigmatic: No one can defend Rose. That’s why he’s an MVP candidate. No one can defend Chris Paul either, just wish someone reminded the dude of that.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    AllBall: as I mentioned, DSW for Paul has been DOWN since Chandler left. And yeah, Okafor can’t really create his own offense, but like, I was comparing it to Chandler, who can only catch and dunk.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Steve Kerr had a 50-50-90 season with a 66.3 percent TS% and a 15.2 PER. But those stats don’t tell his true impact on the game do they? Which by the way was negligible.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Bryan: did he really? Damn, that’s ballin’ stats, hahaha, I’m actually impressed.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    15.2 is not close to 25 +, and your not seriously making a Chris Paul/Steve Kerr comparison?
    CP’s impact on the game is not negligible.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Yeah, that’s not surprising, I love Mek, but this NOH team could be even better defensively with Tyson.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Oh, and CP’s higher assist numbers are not due to deference. Look at the % his wing players shoot. Combined the starting wings besides him are mid 30′s. Look at the pace his team plays. If they played a quicker pace, his assists would be even higher.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Of course I’m not comparing them. But the advanced stats say they’re comparable. Especially the win shares where he had a few seasons of 8 plus win shares in less than 25 minutes a game.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    If this doesn’t show you the ridiculousness of using advanced stats to say CP is having a better impact than Rose, than I don’t know what will.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Steve Kerr was killin’ it with the Bulls!
    I loved that dude!

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    AllBall: well, my point was, because Chandler was ALWAYS paired with CP3, his DSW was humongous. And once Chandler left, Okafor was brought in and his playing time was sort of spread out, Chris Paul’s DSW dropped. So perhaps it was really the BIG that was helping Chris Paul appear like a great defender, and not Chris Paul locking his man down?
    Look, Chris Paul is a great passing lane defender and he’s the VOCAL defensive leader. But he’s a sucky iso defender. I love Chris Paul, he’s one of my favorite players in the league, and if we’re comparing him to Derrick Rose, Chris Paul IS friggin Gary Payton. Bit when you use the term ‘elite’ for Chris Paul, it certainly raises eyebrows.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Oh, well in that case, I see the point your trying to make.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Do you play ball?

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Me? Not right now. I played everyday from 13-20, i’m 21 now. Why do you ask?

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Just curious.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    I pretty much stopped all athletics at 21. I regret it.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Jukai, same. I stopped last year, I already regret it. What about you Bryan, you play?

  • JTaylor21

    Jukai, CP is still recovering from that knee injury and is playing with that big a** brace on his knee which hampers some of his explosiveness. People act like a player coming back from a serious injury is supposed to look like his former self so quickly. I read somewhere that it takes a player a full season to get back being 100% healthy again after surgery, so give it time, dude will probably start playing like the 08 CP by next year.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Ok first of all those Kerr shooting % have little effect on his PER. It’s adjusted for minutes played, everything else measurable and also the league average is ALWAYS 15. So that’s that. CP ranks out high defensively mainly because his team plays at such a slowish pace, and he gets so Many steals. The fact that he orchestrates the defense and applies pressure to the ball stalling the initiation of the offense is what makes him “good” in my opinion. But he is not elite in terms of individual defense, more like a ball thief version of Nate Robinson on that end of the court.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    AllBall: I don’t just mean basketball. Before 21, I would run in a rec league for bball, play intramural soccer, fenced in a club… hell, I even tried my hand in some catch wrestling just for sh*ts and giggles when a club opened up in the ROC.
    Then, I just stopped. To this point, I don’t even know why. At 24, I tried to pick up basketball again, and was just rounding back to form and then I busted my ankle bad.
    Now? Ugh, I’ll be lucky if I have the energy to pick up the free weights at my place.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    My bad Jukai if i basically echoed what you said doin this from my phone didn’t see that comment

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    JTaylor: Agreed
    NBK: Agreed
    That was easy.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    CP is dominating the Hawks right now, 14 in the 1st half, New Orleans are up 15 on the road.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Jukai, I think the lesson from that is, I should get back into it right now, before its too late!
    Oh, and CP has 14, 3 assists, 3 steals on 3-5 FG, 7-8 FT. Those ‘raw’ stats look pretty good.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Some interesting PER’s around the league. Ryan Anderson 21.8, Tyrus Thomas 19.6, Steve Novak 20.8, Jeremy Evans 21.8, Kevin Love 24.5 also a 6.7 win share. (Blake Griffin 23.1 5.3 for whoever was saying Blake was the better player and it wasn’t close).

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    I play when I can, basketball isn’t very popular here. But I get in a groove and go once a week for a few months then miss a few months etc.

  • JTaylor21

    Let me guess Mike “Matador Defense” Bibby is guarding him. How good would the hawks be if they had drafted either DWill or CP istead of that walking corpse better known as MWilliams. They would have made it to the ECF a couple of times but I couldn’t see them making it to the finals.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Mo Evans has been guarding him, but I agree, with the athletes that ATL have, either of those guys pushing the break would be scary.
    You should know by now that they hide Mike Bibby, JT!

  • JTaylor21

    Jukai and AllBall, how good were you guys? I was a decent player, a great rebounder and slasher but my jumpshoot left something to be desired. If I had put in the work, I could have at least made a D2 squad but the motivation just wasn’t there.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    I really haven’t decided if Kevin Love really is incredibly good or is just a product of a system where he is allowed to do everything.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    JTaylor: I was never good at all. I was fantastic at soccer and as bizarre as this sounds, fencing.
    Basketball-wise, I wasn’t very good. I made my High School team because I have long-ass arms and great feet, so I could defend pretty much anyone on the perimeter. However, we were a mostly white, D3 High School team that made the post-season once in the four years I played.
    When my pops was in HS, he was a starter, and the only white guy on a D1 team in Queens. I barely made my D3 HS team. I always felt bad about that.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    I played the 1, I was skilled, but not a great athlete. The guys that I played with that have carried on are at decent Juco/Small D2 schools.
    I played against a lot of guys who are at small D1 schools, but the best I could of done was contribute at a decent sized D3 school.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    New Orleans are up 30 on the road right now.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    @Bryan Tyrus Thomas has been the best Bobcat all season. He is only playin 21 minutes and look at his numbers. The other guys have probably only played in the most ideal situations like Novak. Kevin Love is a beast, but what Allen I believe meant about Griffin is very similar to how you would argue for say Amare Stoudemire if I said I’d rather get the similar numbers from Zach Randolph (just an example)

  • JTaylor21

    JWall is already a better passer than DRose and Russ, I think dude is avg. 9apg. I mean if he puts in the work to improve his jumpshot like both guys did, he could be better than those guys. He’s just as fast and athletic as DRose, he possess the same defensive tools that makes Russ a great defender and he seems like someone who wants to be great. Not too long ago, he came close to outplaying DWill head to head, so the sky is the limit for dude.

  • http://thetroyblot.com Teddy-the-Bear

    TRACY MCGRADY is the best player on the Pistons right now.

  • TrailBlazing&SportingLisbon

    F#CK YEAH LAMARCUS TOOK THE POSTER CHILD TO SCHOOL ON THE LOW BLOCK, Wes nice game too.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    If you ask me, he out played D Will, I mean the Wiz won. Wall had a double double at half time.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    JTaylor21: Funny you should mention Wall. I watched that entire game (obviously) and I thought John Wall was gonna go for 25 assists… in six minutes, he had about eight, nine assists, but that was MOSTLY because he was passing to Nick Young and Young was just knocking down shots with two, three hands in his face. Four times, Wall passed to Young when Young was covered and Young put it up and it swooshed.
    So I said “Wow, Wall is a great passer. If he has nine assists with not even the first quarter done, he’s gonna have a ridiculous number!”
    Then I watched the rest of the game, as Wall dashed through the Suns defense, drew everyone in, kicked it to a wide open man, and clunk. Brick. John Wall hands the ball off and gets cheap assists for the first six minutes (getting nine assists) and then when he ACTUALLY creates beautiful passes, his teammates could not hit anything (getting five assists in something like 33 minutes). It was just a bit ironic.
    And after Nick Young obliterated Vince Carter for twenty points in the first half, the Suns used Grant Hill to absolutely shut Young down. I mean, shut DOWN.
    Nash with 17-4-14. Beast.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    ^^^
    the game I was talking about was today’s Phoenix vs Wizards, obviously.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Phoenix gonna make the play-offs Juks? As of now (If NOH hold on to their 30 points lead, & Boston hold on to their 20 point lead at home to Utah), New Orleans are going to have a better record than the Jazz. That just feels right.

  • JTaylor21

    Jukai, fair point but lets not act like other PGs don’t get some of their assists the same way. That’s the beauty and complexity of the PG position in that a great PG is as dependent on his ability to get in the lane as he is on his teammates ability to make shots. It’s the same in football with the QB position.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    NBK my larger point still remains. PER and win shares aren’t as accurate as one would be led to believe.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Bryan, I think that depends on the player.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Yeah in the sense that if it’s favorable to your argument you can use it for that player. Which is the opposite of what I’m doing. Which is why watching the games is more important.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    For actual heavy minute players it is pretty damn good. Advanced stats are much more reliable then pts rebounds assists steals and blocks a game. I don’t swear by it at all but it’s the most reliable single combination of statistics to rate players available.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    Insanity.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    I like plus/minus more then win shares. Basketball-refernced player rated isn’t bad. But the best thing would just be access to synergy sports

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    AllBall: No. Phoenix will not make the playoffs. I feel like they’re going to go on a long win streak and show that the trade really paid off, but it just took too long to adjust. At this point, Phoenix needs a big collapse from Portland, or a Carmelo trade. I don’t see either happening at this point.
    But hey, I’ll be watching on TV rooting regardless.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Advanced stats really aren’t that great, unless we really want to believe that Manu Ginobili is a top-5 player in the league every year. In which case, give the man his MVP.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    and sorry if I’m being overly argumentative, NBK, but I HATE plus/minus. That’s so dependent on so many factors, the perfect example being Joel Anthony and Big Z, where Anthony was +10 and Big Z was -9 in the last game that the Heat played. Yeah, Joel Anthony had a decent game, but when Big Z was in, they were first adjusting to Joel Anthony playing center and then Lebron James, both for the first time. Arroyo turned the ball over like crazy and Wade was chuckng bricks. Why was this Big Z’s fault? He played exactly as he did in any other game, didn’t give the centers any buckets, but the Heat were out of sync. Is this solely Big Z’s fault?
    That’s why I don’t like plus/minus. Everything else is at least TANGIBLE, but plus/minus can realllllly screw things up.
    Hell, Nash was +8 and Dragic was +12. Did Nash play worse than Dragic? Hell no, but when Dragic was in, Young was out and there was no one scoring for the Wizards.
    It’s useful in many cases, but reallllly so misleading, especially when you’re only looking at a couple of games.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    Duncan: 21 points, 15 rebounds, 8 assists, 5 blocks. Heaven forbid.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Once again I never go by a single stat. Plus/minus is good if your looking at it in a certain context. And it’s more of a scale of how much you help your team. That game Big Z was used in Lineups that are normally very beneficial, like say while LeBron was playing the 4 next to him. LeBron has been more effective as a 4 then anything else, but against Atlanta with big z Spoelstra felt something was missing. And I think it was speed because Horford and smith are mobile. And advanced stats are used by just about every team. Some GM’s swear by them – Like Daryl Morey for example.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    NBK: How many times has Lebron played the 4 for the Heat? It can’t be very much, with Bosh/Haslem/Howard. Call me a traditionalist, I like them best with a classic lineup (purely preferential).
    Also, Daryl Morey hasn’t put together a team that has gone past the semi-finals in quite some time (if ever).
    I understand why Big Z didn’t play much, I’m just saying it makes Joel Anthony look like twice the player Big Z was when Big Z really played fine and everyone around Big Z collapsed.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Are you insinuating putting together a team in a market like Houston is easy? He has produced a winner every year with one team going about .500 (last season) without a healthy franchise player for a long stretch, at any point in his career as GM. And LeBron didn’t really get any run at PF when Haslem was healthy, but as soon as he went down Spoelstra didn’t really have a choice. And his PER at PF isn’t just slightly better, it’s 35.4 lol. big z may have seemed to play well, but obviously Atlanta dumped on them with him in so Spoelstra made a decision. We’ll see whose right next time they play Atlanta you or him, and I’m positive you’ll point it out

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Co-sign nbk. Morey is a fantastic GM.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    I mean, how much time has Lebron played at power forward? Because for a good long stretch, it was Bosh and then Howard and that was it, no other power forward. Lebron playing forward was a relative new thing with Bosh out. That’s why I’m asking.

  • JTaylor21

    How many of y’all really believe that the nuggets can beat the lakers in the playoffs if they manage to keep Anthony? I guessing no one, then why does the media always act like the nuggets are a legit championship contender with Melo. I can’t remember how many times I’ve heard this week about how it’s unfortunate that melo wants to leave because the nuggets have something special. That’s why I hate the media, always making ish up. Melo better get out of Denver asap because there’s no light at the end of the tunnel.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    I don’t really have the resources to give you an answer

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    JTaylor: I haven’t heard anyone mention that Melo’s team are contenders for a while. People just think if he leaves a playoff team and goes to the friggin Nets, he’ll be miserable
    NBK: To my knowledge, Lebron has only played the four before their long winning streak, and since Bosh has been injured. So, that’s why I’m asking. I want to use this as a “THAT’S WHY ADVANCED STATS MEAN NOTHING” argument but I’m too scared that you’ll pull out something to embarrass me. So I’m keeping my mouth shut.
    Everyone: Monta Ellis is convincing me to leave Westbrook off and take him for the all-star game.

  • http://sdfjklf.com Jukai

    F*ck my world, he just rolled his ankle. I have to keep my mouth shut.

  • http://www.need4sheed.com Tarzan Cooper

    TIMMY AINT DEAD YET MOTHERFUCCERS!!!!!!!! ZBO!!!!

  • http://discounthotelsinnewyork.tkifoods.com Lilli Saches

    Well, it’s decent, but how about the other options we have here? Do you mind publishing one more post about these as well? Thank you!

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