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Thursday, March 24th, 2011 at 8:50 am  |  217 responses

Post Up: Nugs Upset Spurs

TPU witnesses the excitement live from Denver.

The Post Up was fortunate enough to have our man Ryan Jones live on the scene in Denver, who offered to dish out his notes as the lead recap in today’s TPU. His words sum up the top game below, with Adam’s shorter recaps for the other contests following behind. And a huge thanks to Ryan for reaching out to contribute—always welcome.

by Ryan Jones & Adam Figman

Denver 115, San Antonio 112

I had barely reached my seat at the Pepsi Center on Wednesday night when a Nuggets fan sitting behind me asked for the score of the Knicks-Magic game. I briefly wondered why he cared. Then I remembered.

From what I can tell, Denver fans these days hate the Knicks—by which I mean Carmelo Anthony—as much as they love their Nuggets. Especially these Nuggets. If you’ve watched Denver since the trade, you know they’re a youthful (if not actually that young), fast-paced bunch of gunners, currently averaging a League-best 107.6 points per game—a point and a half more than Mike D’Antoni’s ’bockers. These guys are easy to root for.

The Spurs aren’t so popular in the Mile High City, Manu Ginobili least of all. He was booed enthusiastically every time he touched the ball, and in the early going, a lot of those touches resulted in three-pointers. Thanks to Manu’s hot-shooting first half (and Gary Neal’s eventual team-high 25 points), the Spurs took a 4-3 lead in the opening minutes, built it into double digits, and held it until midway through the fourth quarter.

That’s when the Nuggets, relentless all night, if not quite as efficient as the visitors, finally caught up.

Denver came away 115-112 winners, getting 27 points from Al Harrington and a clutch jumper from Wilson Chandler with about 30 seconds left to seal it. The game felt a bit silly at points—the teams shot a combined 25 of 53 from beyond the arc, including 6 of 8 from Gary Neal—and the Spurs’ various double-digit leads never felt remotely safe. The whole thing was a blast.

It’s hard to imagine the Nuggets keeping this up, of course, but you can’t blame their fans for riding the wave. Playing a San Antonio squad missing the hobbled Tim Duncan (not that that’s an excuse; TD was healthy last week when the Spurs lost by 30 in Miami), Denver saw its bench outscore its starters 63-52. George Karl will know he can’t count on that sort of production when the Playoffs start.

But for now? The Nuggets are 11-4 since Melo left, with wins over the Celtics and Spurs. They lack a star but are making up for it with fan favorites like JR Smith and that slew of forwards—Harrington, Wilson Chandler and Danilo Gallinari—who all seem capable of going for 25 or 30 on a given night. And who takes the last shot in a tight game? The answer seems to be “whoever ends up with the ball.”

The Spurs, meanwhile, still have the League’s best record, and their 8-4 mark in March is solid enough. But their last five losses—to the Bulls, Grizzlies, Lakers, Heat, and now the Nuggets—have all come against playoff teams, and none except Wednesday’s game in Denver was particularly close. I’m not sure what it says for the Spurs’ postseason chances, but the implications aren’t great.

The only thing Wednesday night’s game left me certain of? Nothing you didn’t already know: The Western Conference playoffs should be nuts.

Orlando 111, New York 99

On the other side of the country, the Knicks confirmed the fact that, thus far, Denver has gotten the winning side of that little deal the two teams made a few weeks back. New York continued its now-two-week stammer, falling to the Magic at home after Orlando shut them down with a strong fourth quarter. As would be expected, Dwight Howard (33 points, 11 boards, 3 blocks) beasted, and every other Magic starter scored in double figures as well. Carmelo Anthony played modestly and led the Knicks with 24, but it was Amar’e Stoudemire who didn’t come through at all, scoring only 13 on 6-20 shooting from the field.

New Jersey 98, Cleveland 94

It took an extra session and 23 rebounds from Kris Humphries, but the Nets pulled out the win against the Cavs in Ohio. Ramon Sessions dropped a game-high 21 in the loss.

Philadelphia 105, Atlanta 100

The Hawks don’t seem to realize they’re in the middle of a Playoff push. Philly hosted them then sent ‘em packing last night, defeating the ice cold, Josh Smith-led Hawks (Smoove went for 33 and 12) behind a well-balanced offensive attack. All five Sixer starters and two bench guys scored 10-plus, and the team shot 48.8 percent from the field in the efficient W.

Memphis 90, Boston 87

Despite the rough news that Rudy Gay won’t be playing anymore this season, the Grizzlies have maintained focus, and last night took down the No. 2 team in the East by using said focus. Somehow Memphis won despite nobody on its squad scoring more than 13, but Zach Randolph & Co. did indeed solidify their grasp on the eighth spot out West. Looks like the Celts are hitting that pre-Playoff, rest-up point.

Indiana 111, Charlotte 88

The Pacers did the same as the Grizzlies out West, rolling through the Bobcats and upping their advantage on the team behind them by three games. Danny Granger scored 33, while Roy Hibbert put in 13 and snatched 12.

Miami 100, Detroit 94

The Heat have been off for a few days, but they came back solid, er, solid enough to get a win against a generally lifeless Pistons group. They rallied late to earn that win, led by Dwyane Wade (24 points) and Chris Bosh (23).

Sacramento 97, Milwaukee 90

With the exception of that whole leaving-Sacramento thing, it is an interesting time to be a Kings fan, because we’re starting to see that they’ve got some exciting up-and-coming talent. Marcus Thornton (27 points), specifically, has been playing great, putting up great stat lines night after night, win or lose. (Mostly, um, lose.) Beno Udrih added 25 as the Kings took down the Bucks in Milwaukee.

Oklahoma City 106, Utah 94

As of now, the Thunder have to look scarier to future Western Conference opponents than the Spurs, no? OKC took down Utah last night, receiving a combined 60 points from Russell Westbrook (31) and Kevin Durant (29). With Serge Ibaka (15 and 13) and a still-getting-used-to-the-new-team Kendrick Perkins in tow, I’d wanna avoid the  Thunder as long as possible if I was, say, the Lakers.

Houston 131, Golden State 112

Yes, the Rockets dropped 131 points straight on the Warriors’ collective domepiece. How? Well, Kevin Martin‘s 34 points, Courtney Lee‘s 25 and Luis Scola‘s 20 certainly helped. Houston dominated this high-scoring affair, shooting 51.1 percent from the floor and rolling past the Warriors.

Phoenix 114, Toronto 106

This game will probably get no media love (including here), but come on, this is absurd. After last night’s triple-overtime craziness, the Suns flew home around 3 a.m., then come out (way) less than 24 hours later and faced the Raptors—and won! Wild. Aaron Brooks stepped up off the bench and led Phoenix with 25 points, allowing Suns’ vets like Steve Nash and Vince Carter to spend just 20 or so minutes on the court.

L.A. Clippers 127, Washington 119

For all that he has accomplished, until last night, Blake Griffin still hadn’t notched a triple-double. He finally knocked that off his list of goals yesterday, putting up a 33-17-10 stat line in a double-OT thriller in L.A. It won’t get much attention, but John Wall put up a nice 32 points and 10 dimes in the loss. Hey, you want the limelight, gotta get that W. Props go out to Blake for his first triple-double.

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  • MUBWAR

    props to Blake. With all the achievements this year I wonder where will he be in a few years of development. Scary. And I have to say Detroit played a great 3quarters against the Heat N they slept in the 4th.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    There was a funny sequence last night where Dwight pleaded to Orlando, Turkoglu in particular,”Give me the ball”, during a break in play. The ball gets in bounded, Turkoglu shoots a contested 3 with 21 seconds on the shot clock. That play is indicative of why Orlando are not as good as they could be.

  • Riggs

    that 10 in blakes trip-dub was assists right?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    Unbelievable how great a passer Blake is for his size and all the other abilities he haves. Great statline for him over all but an ever better W.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Right now the Lakers are 6 games behind San Antonio with 11 to play. The Spurs have games against Portland (x2), Memphis, Boston, L.A, Phoenix (x2), Houston and Atlanta. 5 of those 8 are on the road. Some of those teams will be fighting to keep their season alive…

  • Mike Mihalow

    Spurs were missing their All-Star. How was them losing an upset?

  • bull22

    wow, the nugget fans must be laughing themselves silly because carmelo’s ny heffers are now 7-10 since the trade, LOL! what was that melo said “we will be fine by playoffs”.
    yeah he is right, primed for a sweep or out in 5 games! hahaahhahahahahahahahahahhahahahha

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    The Knicks are just plowing through the competition.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    The Knicks are playing like sh*t but c’mon Eboy the Heat have even more talent and they struggled together and they even had the whole off-season to practice together. We all see it looks bad right now but atleast give em some time to get it together or not.

  • dsleepy

    wow victory for phx right on the heels of the heartbreaker in LA, a lot of heart. feel bad for the SAC fans.

  • http://www.listerblister.blogspot.com rainman10

    @bull22…don’t speak too soon. But either way, I doesn’t matter to me if the Knicks lose the rest of the season, they are better off than the Nuggets. And not because of Melo, but because of Amare and Landry. NYK will have the last laugh when everything clears.

  • Caribbean Crossover

    Pacers FOR THE WIN!! lol i hope they don’t show up in the playoffs then disappear the next season like, say, the Bucks.

  • JTaylor21

    I heard through the grapevine that DRose is the most dominant PG since Magic. Looks like the Rose train keeps chugging along at an alarming rate.
    People are now claiming that dude is the best PG since Magic and dismissing what JKidd, KJ, GP, SNash, CP, and DWill accomplished.
    That’s what media hype does for you.

  • JTaylor21

    Guess what I heard through the grapevine? That DRose is the most dominant PG since Magic. Looks like the Rose train keeps chugging along at an alarming rate.
    People are now claiming that dude is the best PG since Magic and dismissing what JKidd, KJ, GP, SNash, CP, and DWill accomplished.
    That’s what media hype does for you.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Yeah, because when the Heat stared 9-7, they were getting notes of consolation from opposing fanbases for their struggles.

  • Nuggets can suggit

    No Duncan, No Upset. Everyone was picking the nuggets due to no duncan so how was this an upset at all? I’m sorry, but just although you’ve pointed out all the spurs losses to big teams, you’ve also neglected to point out that the Spurs have also beat those opponents not to mention that since February the Lakers were taken down by San Antonio, Orlando, Boston, and Cleveland? Really? Cleveland? If that’s not enough may I mention a loss to Charlotte? Now, point out that those losses don’t matter because neither the Bobcats or the Cavs are gonna make it to the playoffs. But the spurs have not fallen to cleveland. Okay okay, so charlotte and cleveland are east coast teams, but when quality teams lose to scrubs, how can you just throw that kind of information out the window? I don’t just say that they had an off game, there are legit weaknesses in their game. Lakers are not without their faults. And with that being said, their faults are out their plain as day but no one dare utter those words.

  • Mike From Spain

    I for one always appreciated how highly skilled Melo is, but somehow thought that he was detrimental to the Nuggets… I know it is easy to say it in hindsight, but I am not all too surprised that the winner in the trade is Denver.

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    actually no jahmai…key pieces of the heat were missing durimng the offseason hence the inconsistent and confusing play during their first 10 games. If they’d all been healthy they’d probably have murdered everybody

  • JTaylor21

    Guess what I heard through the grapevine? That DRose is the most dominant PG since Magic. Looks like the Rose train keeps chugging along at an alarming rate. It’s getting ludacris if you ask me, everyone’s acting like it’s DRose and a bunch of bums on that bulls team.
    He has a very good supporting cast with the league’s best D, best new coach and one of the best second unit.
    People claiming that dude is the best PG since Magic are BS themselves and dismissing what JKidd, KJ, GP, SNash, CP, and DWill accomplished.
    That’s what media hype does for you.

  • http://klatschendom.wordpress.com/ speedy

    The Knicks had the talent and chemistry to at least make a lot of noise at the end of the season and the playoffs.
    I don’t see that any more.
    Before Carmelo they were like one or max. two players away from a championship contender right now they will need more.

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    also pacers will be heare ahwhile…good young players..dont seem especially injury prone. bucks will be back too. they have some good pieces and once they’re healthy they could be a problem.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Eboy, actually, it was 9-8.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/ niQ

    Wow, the Nuggets have been killing it post trade deadline.

  • http://nicekicks.com meloman2.0

    and Eboy, u cant compare the two situations, at all. The heat had the advantage of having a full training camp together. The Knicks have basically been thrown to the wolves with minimal time to gel

  • http://nicekicks.com meloman2.0

    and for all of u saying Melo was the problem, i think your forgetting that it wasnt a one player deal… they esentially replaced sheldon williams and anthony carter for wilson chandler and mozgod. Plus Ty law and ray felt over billups especially with denvers style of play

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Fu*cking excuses. GTFOH. When Melo was introduced for his first game in the Garden, coming out of the bowels of the arena instead of from the bench (as if he was the second coming of Willis Reed), it didn’t look like a moment where there was going to be “meshing” needed, and every overzealous fan had them pegged for “first round domination” and “killing everyone in sight”. I read that here every morning for 2 weeks after the trade. Then when they beat the Heat, it was as if they became title favorites. Kill that bullsh*t noise.

  • http://slamonline.com Ben Osborne

    Love the Ryan Jones/Adam Figman teamwork. Thank you both.

  • JTaylor21

    Guess what I heard through the grapevine?
    That DRose is the most dominant PG since Magic. Looks like the Rose train keeps chugging along at an alarming rate. It’s getting Ludacris if you ask me, everyone’s acting like it’s DRose and a bunch of bums on that bulls team.
    He has a very good supporting cast with the league’s best D, best new coach and one of the best second unit.
    People claiming that dude is the best PG since Magic are BS themselves and dismissing what JKidd, KJ, GP, SNash, CP, and DWill accomplished.

  • JTaylor21

    Did anyone hear that DRose is the most dominant PG since Magic. Looks like the Rose train keeps chugging along at an alarming rate. It’s getting Ludacris if you ask me, everyone’s acting like it’s DRose and a bunch of bums on that bulls team. He has a very good supporting cast with the league’s best D, best new coach and one of the best second unit. People claiming that dude is the best PG since Magic are BS themselves and dismissing what JKidd, KJ, GP, SNash, CP, and DWill accomplished.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    “Coming out of the bowels of the arena” is still way more respectable than throwing the NBA version of Summer Jam and claiming the next seven titles.
    Just saying.

  • Fat Lever

    Sixers keep flying under the radar, winning games. If whatever team they face in the playoffs continues to sleep…

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Whatever, Enig. When they drop rose petals from the United Center ceiling when they present Rose with the MVP trophy, they’ll be lots of comedy coming from everywhere….trust me. And until the Heat are locked out of the playoff gates, no one can say Lebron is wrong. Stop hating.

  • T-Money

    but chemistry is not new york’s problem. its aptitude, their talent level is just not very high. carmelo’s nuggets would kill carmelo’s knicks. and it’s hard for me to respect a coach who thinks it’s a good idea for shawne williams to guard dwight. (i would also find it hard to swallow if i were a knicks fan that amar’e wants NO PART of a tough defensive assignment. like ever.)

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Jtaylor
    The buzz about rose is bigger than his actual play. He has Bulls fans in other cities coming out of the wood work for the 1st time since MJ roamed.
    Right now, the D Rose for MVP train has unstoppable momentum, and as BC has mentioned to me a number of times, to be in the MVP race you need buzz.

  • FoCo

    Cut the excuses the Nuggets haven’t had any more time to gel than the Knicks and they aren’t playing sub .500 ball. What they are doing is the same thing the Melo era Nuggets did which is compete with or beat good teams and lose to teams they have no business losing to.

  • Mike From Spain

    uhm, Amar’e got a max deal, a nickname that stands for ‘stand tall and talented’ and does not want to play tough defense? tsk tsk … I for one would be unimpressed as a Knick fan. Tell me if I am missing something here…

  • http://www.pablasso.com pablasso

    Tom White is actually Eboy not Jukai. I’ll post proof tomorrow!

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/category/blogs/farmer-jones/ Ryan Jones

    Quibbling with the word “upset” in the headline is fine, but the idea that this year’s Tim Duncan is anything like the Tim Duncan of old is crazy, and the thought that the Spurs of March 2011 are the same as the Spurs of Nov/Dec 2010 is suspect, too.
    Let’s look more closely at the Spurs’ other losses this month:
    -by 16 at Memphis (w/out Tony Parker, but the Grizz didn’t have Rudy Gay, either).
    -by 16 v the Lakers (Duncan: 2 points in 23 minutes).
    -by 30 at Miami (a game I attended; the Spurs were outrun and outclassed almost from the opening tip).
    Yes, they also beat Miami and Dallas in that span, and yes, they’ve still got the league’s best record. I’m certainly not counting them out in the playoffs — Pop and these players have too much history, and I’m not stupid — but on recent evidence, this is not the same team that started 25-3. Doesn’t mean they can’t add to their ring collection in June. But they do seem to be showing their age, and that has the potential to make things a lot harder for SA in May and June.
    I should also mention that I truly could not give less of a sh*t how the Spurs or Nuggets do in the playoffs.

  • JTaylor21

    Co-sign T-Money. I was in utter shock when Antoni decided that it was a great idea to have Shawne Williams check the best center in the L.
    He must have really thought that a 6-9 SF guarding a 6-11 270LB center was the way to go, it’s not like he didn’t have Turiaf on the bench or Amare.
    I probably wouldn’t have gone to Amare also after seeing BBass abuse him in the first qtr and watched him give Orl free passes to the rim.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    Derrick Comedy was pretty dope.

  • http://nicekicks.com meloman2.0

    WHO eboy?WHO? excuse me, but wasn’t your team the same team that had a friggen ROCK CONCERT before playing a single game?? didnt your team also predict “not 1 not 2 not 3….but +7 championships??” yea, i thought so

  • Anthony

    FLASH NEWS: Now losing by 3 against the Nuggets on their homecourt without TD is considering an upset, GTFOH seriously. Cant wait to play LA in the WCF.

  • http://nicekicks.com meloman2.0

    Tell me a basketball fan (with a brain) that told u the Knicks would win a championship this year…

  • Tom

    Spurs will be knocked out no later than the 2nd round if not by Memphis in the 1st. Watching them play you can tell they don’t have what it takes to knock out a really good 4 times outta 7.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    SLAM really needs to start banning these f*cking dopes.

  • Shadojoker

    Chuck Hayes of all people had a triple-double last night w/o the theatrics but he gets overlooked & no love cause his name aint Griffin,MCgee,Kidd,etc!! Shame on you TPU!!!

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I remember when it was assumed that the Knicks, even before the Melo trade, were going to be a tough out for anyone in the first round. They were the team to fear.
    But, there is truth to the to idea that they sacrificed way too much to get Melo, sometime I said would be stupid for a long time. Giving up Chandler and Gallo was pretty stupid. Compounding that by giving Melo $65 million immediately, which means they really don’t have enough money to sign a true superstar to a max deal, was even worse.
    Anyway, I will believe in Denver and George Karl when they get out of the first round and not before. But they are playing a lot better.

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    Some of y’all know me.
    I never doubted Rose when he called the MVP way back when…

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    Yeah. Giving up Galinari…

  • http://pickandroll.tumblr.com/ airs

    rose petals…concert…ROSE petals….concert…i don’t see how thats close

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    One’s ghey…one’s more ghey….there’s no good between either.

  • Jono

    Ty Lawson = 2012 NBA All-Star

  • http://www.slamonline.com KulchaKris

    I have to agree with Meloman. No one who watches basketball with a critical eye thought adding ‘Melo alone to the Knicks would result in championships. When your two best players are defense-optional, winning a championship is unlikely.

  • http://pickandroll.tumblr.com/ airs

    haha, i suppose there’s the correlation

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    You guys have selective reading habits.

  • http://slamonline BossTerrry

    You can keep you’re Kicks and Punks, but as a subscriber, I want Slam’s top 500 all time mag!!! MAKE IT HAPPEN WALSH!! BOOk IT!!

  • JTaylor21

    AllBall, I don’t have a problem with Rose winning the MVP but I do have a problem with people claiming that dude’s the best PG since Magic.
    When you compare his season to the top seasons other A.M. (after Magic) PGs put up, he comes up short. It’s not a knock against Rose because he’s having a great season but other PGs have put up way better seasons.

  • Orlando Woolridge

    wild-ass chuck hayes!

  • http://www.redraidersports.com Nicolas Fleming

    Intangibles make Rose so much more than stats. Stats lie, W’s don’t.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    In my opinion, Derrick Rose is a Allen Iverson/prime Stephon Marbury/ability to take over Isiah Thomas hybrid. Dude is a phenomenal scorer, super fast, super explosive and a great leader by example. He is in no way related to Magic Johnson in game or leadership skills though. That’s just irrational bullsh*t. Give the kid a chance to do something worthwhile in the playoffs before he’s anointed the next Earvin Johnson…one of the greatest winners of all-time.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Jtaylor
    I don’t have a problem with it either. He deserves the award.
    However, this John Hollinger quote stands “I think he’s actually surpassed Kobe when it comes to the Army of Unreasonably Enthusiastic Supporters.”
    Now, Bulls fans will probably come in and question Hollingers credentials, I just wonder, if Rose was playing in a different city, would this buzz be so big?

  • http://pickandroll.tumblr.com/ airs

    i don’t know who in their right basketball mind would say derrick’s the best PG since magic, thats ludicrous. that being said, he can’t be ignored when talking about the elite PGs in the game. and yeah i agree, he’s AI, starbury, steve francis and all that but with a better attitude and work ethic.

  • http://www.redraidersports.com Nicolas Fleming

    AllBall: Probably, He’s explosive, fun to watch. Chicago is definitely aplace that showcases him more than most teams could, but that’s not Rose’s fault. He’s MVP and is having a great year, but like Eboy, he’s not Magic. Hell, he probably still isn’t the best true PG in the L.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Who cares?
    I love Derrick Rose’s game. I’ve loved it since Memphis and got in knockdown dragout arguments with one of my homies about whether Rose was better than Beasley when they were in college.
    Rose has improved every aspect of his game every year and right now has a team that has been riddled with injuries as the top team in the Eastern conference despite the presence of two other legit championship contenders, and three to four other solid squads.
    His numbers are outstanding, and so is his success. He’s the runaway MVP because he deserves it.
    As far as the Magic comments, again, who cares. Taht’s not widespread. I’ve never actually heard anybody say that to be honest. Getting upset because a few idiots have stupid opinions is pointless. Save your angst for larger problems and misconceptions.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/category/blogs/farmer-jones/ Ryan Jones

    No one does better paragraph breaks than Allenp.

  • http://slamonline.com zoom

    As I said before, bulls22 or whatever his name is OBSESSED with the Knicks. And Eboy, considering THREE SUPERSTARS threw themselves a victory parade before training camp was even two weeks away, 3rd place is underachieving. Running over bum squads and losing to all but ONE contender is underachieving. Anything less than a chip is an EPIC FAIL. Seems like Miami fans care more about what’s going on in NY than they do about their own team. Try filling up an arena while your team beats real contenders. ONLY then will you guys own us.

  • JTaylor21

    So I guess ESPN isn’t a large company anymore and isn’t in millions of homes.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Allen
    If you who cares question was to me, then simply, I care. I think that Rose play has been MVP worthy, yet the buzz has far surpassed his play.
    Often the loudest chants in other teams arenas are for Rose. I think Bulls fans are over enthusiastic because they have not seen success like this since Jordan.
    I still think he is the MVP, and he will win it in a runaway.

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    The farmerJones, back in the Slam comment section.
    Nice.

  • http://pickandroll.tumblr.com/ airs

    bulls fans have always been enthusiastic, even after the jordan era. they have gone to the playoffs a couple times since then before rose too. not to say their success was like it is now, but they did sweep the defending champs in 07

  • http://slamonline.com/ Adam Figman

    Ha I was literally just thinking the same as Ryan’s last comment. AllenP’s paragraph breaks are phenomenal. Also, as long as the Spurs are on top of the standings and the Nuggets’ best player is Nene (right? or whichever of those guys), I think it’s safe to call a Denver win over ‘em an upset. Still, the Thunder are looking like much more of a threat to contend with the Lakers than anyone else, at least at this point. I’m guessing the Spurs will get through the first round and lose in a hard-fought second round battle, which, given their opening record, is kind of absurd. They shouldn’t be going down like that.

  • JTaylor21

    No one is saying that Rose’s the next Magic, what I heard from numerous “experts” was that he’s the most dominant PG since Magic.
    Also what’s with all the Rose’s the runaway MVP talk? I think he wins it but not in a landslide like Bron last year. He’s not head and shoulders above the comp. like some people think.

  • Riggs

    Eboy, stop over-exaggerating please. show me anyone that said anything about the knicks winning a title this year.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Selective poor memories abound. Look it up yourselves….I’m not that interested researching a sub .500 team.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I don’t watch ESPN so if it’s being said over there, then I would have missed it.
    So who said it. Just give me the names.
    Who else is on Rose’s level of MVP?
    Bron’s team isn’t as good, and he’s had more help.
    Dwight’s team has been shifty all season and nobody believes they are real contenders.
    Kobe has been up and down.
    NObody on the Spurs is putting up great numbers.
    Dirk has fallen back some.
    Rose is putting up the best numbers and his team’s success is the most impressive, at least to me. It should be a landslide.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    Skip Bayless is starting to get on my nerves, he’s not willing to aknowledge how good a player rose is and now he’s saying KOBE should be MVP, are you kidding me? I love 24 but he’s been crappy for long stretches this year. Skips point is: ‘He’s been playing great since the AS break’. Serious? Since the motherf*cking AS break? That’s his point. But we can’t annoy Rose yet because there are 12 games to go. So he wants to crown Kobe MVP because he played will for 15 games or so but Rose isn’t deserving right now because we got 12 games to go.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    *annoint.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Derrick Rose’s interview in the Chicago Tribune that is up on Hoops Hype is good.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    What’s even more funny is, if you start looking around the internet, the ‘Rose NOT for MVP’ hype is starting to build up, people are already hating. Like it’s just a good story and he’s not deserving. This sh*t pisses me off.

  • JTaylor21

    I don’t know who exactly said it but it was quite a few people. Also, you really think that Rose’s putting up the best numbers?
    25/7/4/44% are great numbers but they are not better than 23/14/2.4/1.3/60% or 26/7/6/50%. I’ll give you the team’s success part but it’s not like the Bulls record is that much better than other elite teams.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Did you have the Bulls as an elite team before the season began?
    Did you expect them to have the best record without Boozer for the first 25, or without Noah for the games he missed?
    Did you expect Rose to put up 25 and 8? Or improve his three point shooting by 8 percentage points?
    The team’s performance was not predicted by ANYONE besides the most avid Chicago homers. Rose’s play has even exceeded the lofty expectations placed on him by the writers for SLAM.
    Dude is easily a top three point guard in the league, and folks are regularly arguing that he’s the best or second best. His team is a top three team in the East despite incoporating a new coach, philosophy and star player. And he’s putting up 25 and 8! Who is the last point guard to put up 25 and 8? Iverson put up 30 and 7, but his team was garbage.
    Bron’s team has been too up and down. So has Dwight’s. Dirk’s numbers really aren’t that impressive this year. Kobe has been great at times, and not so great at times. I think Rose’s combination of statistics and team success are unmatched right now. It’s not even a competition.

  • http://shinefluid@aol.com just bcuz

    i want all of you to go back and look at your comments when Rose said at the beginning of the season “why cant i be MVP?” look at what you all said. OK. Now present day you’re doubting his capablities again. watch what new levels he takes it to

  • http://theresastatforthat.blogspot.com Deron

    The Nuggets are doing their thing now! The Knicks will take some time; who cares about this season anyway? With or without Carmelo they’re still a first round KO.

    http://theresastatforthat.blogspot.com/2011/03/carmelo-what-has-he-done-to-knicks.html

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    He is shooting like 43% right? That’s pretty awful…if that’s the only knock on him right now.

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    yeah rose is mvp…he’s not the best pg in the l but he’s getting the best results without THAT much help..like bron in 09 and 10. I don’t think the bulls go that far in the playoffs tho, bc D.ROSE is their offense…

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Eboy Posted: Sep.28 at 9:17 am
    TO elaborate: you are an inconsistent mid-range shooter, a liability from the three and your ability to create for others from the point is questionable. Clean these things up and you can be spoken about as being one of the best point guards in the league, then enter into MVP discussions. This is not hating, it’s fact – ( I had to find atleast one example, and since this was a “fact” at the time this is the one I wanted to point out. I was among those thinking Rose couldn’t make the jump this season, but i can’t find any of my comments on that page)

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    He’s shooting 44 percent on a team where they only other serious scoring threat continues to be regularly injured.
    Yes, he shoots a lot, and 44 percent is not great, but I think that’s indicative of the attention he’s receiving from opposing teams, and the fact that he HAS to shoot over double and triple teams at times if his team wants to be successful.
    I”m not saying Rose is the greatest MVP ever, I’m saying that this year, nobody deserves it more.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I really posted that, nbk? Damn, I’m good.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    And good for D-Rose for getting those things accomplished in basically one season. Hate on my nuts now, fools.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    lol yeah all good though, I agreed with you even though I apparently wasn’t there (when am i absent? wtf) to say it. And that’s what I pointed out about Rose last week, I respect him for improving on his 3 major weaknesses in less than a year, I don’t think any superstar has ever shored up their weaknesses so quickly.

  • JTaylor21

    25/7 are great numbers but you are ignoring the 44 FG%. Those are the kind of stats people leave out when pointing out a player’s greatness.
    Before any one comes up with the excuse that Rose is a small guy that drives among the trees, CP’s best scoring season when he avg. 23ppg, he shot 50% and he’s 6-0ft tall while Rose’s 6-3.
    People got mad when I compared Rose to Starbury/AI, all three are inefficient, shoot-first players.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    I prefer this one.

    Eboy Posted: Oct.12 at 8:46 am
    Co-sign t-sizzle. All the inbred’s that speak through rotted teeth can’t seem to fathom that D-Rose’s numbers may actually DROP since he’s going to be playing with more talent on the Bulls roster than he’s had before. Now unless he wants to be a ball-hogging little bi*ch and not use Boozer (when he returns) spread the floor when Korver is in and try to generate offense for Luo with his drive and dish game, then everyone who thinks he’s going to have staggering numbers are going to be scratching their as*es wondering what happened. If he does all the things I said above, the Bulls will have the ability to be deadly. If he plays for numbers and trying to cement his place as one of the top three PG’s in the league (which he currently is on the outside looking in on)then Bulls fans will see another first round exit and a summer of what if’s. But, I wouldn’t expect Bulls fans or dipsh*ts to realize that it’s not hate fueling this type of thinking, it’s questioning if the dude will be willing to sacrifice in a way he hasn’t had to before because HE was the most talented option the Bulls had. He now has legit running mates. See how that works?

    Turns out he CAN up all his numbers AND have a deadly-ass squad.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    You know what, the hell with all this Rose for MVP stuff (ofcourse I would love to see him get it) but let the Bulls do serious damage this playoffs. That’s way more important anyway. People will start to see HOW special Drose is. You think he’s good now, wait until the playoffs start. He always steps his game up when it counts most. All the way from HS tournaments to college tournaments to big NBA RS games and the Playoffs.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    Here you go, nbk:
    nbk Posted: Oct.12 at 1:09 pm
    overrated

  • T-Money

    To be honest, I don’t think there’s player more valuable to his team than Dwight Howard. He plays close to the full 48 against good teams and Orlando’s offense AND defense simply can’t function when he’s not on the floor.

  • JTaylor21

    Really, DRose gets double and triple teamed? Come on son, no one in the NBA today gets triple teamed and DHow is the only player that gets double on the regular.
    Kobe, Bron, Melo and a few other chaps at times get doubled in the post but when on the perimeter they are rarely doubled.
    It’s damn near impossible to double team a perimeter player but much easier to double a post player. Good defensive teams may zone off a specific area of the floor to slow down elite perimeter players but you rarely see double/triple teams.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    Rose doesn’t get double-teamd.
    But I don’t think anyone else gets trapped more than him.
    Also, yeah, Rose best pg since Magic?
    Nahhh.
    Best point guard since CP3 and DWill.
    But people always gonna hyperbolize.

  • http://pickandroll.tumblr.com/ airs

    actually jtaylor, drose is doubled even above the 3pt line plenty of times throughout a game. and there have been too many people who have bashed on derrick before and during the beginning of the season who have changed their tune as of late to remember/call out.

  • http://pickandroll.tumblr.com/ airs

    trapped, better term

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I count traps as double teams. My fault on not be clearer.
    Dwight Howard cannot force his teammates to respect him and get him touches. That hurts his MVP candidacy. More importantly, he’s a whiner, just like his coach, and that mentality infects the whole team and they suffer.
    Rose shoots 44 percent. Not great, not horrible for someone taking 20 shots a game. He’s the number one scoring option on a team that lacks knockdown shooters, plays at a slow pace, and has been without out two of its best big men on and off for most of the season.
    Prior to this year, dude shot 47 and 48 percent from the field, so putting him the same class as Iverson as far as a volume shooter is ridiculous to me.
    Rose rarely takes bad shots anymore. He takes difficult shots, not bad shots. In fact, I would say the same thing about Iverson in his prime. Rarely was Iverosn going the Arenas route and jacking long contested jumpers. Instead, he was attempting to score over three players.
    I’ve never said Derrick Rose is better than Chris Paul or Deron Williams. I said he’s number three. So, if Chris Paul did something Derrick Rose hasn’t done, that makes perfect sense because I think Chris Paul is a better overall player.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    yeah, is that from the top 50? Cuz I was pretty adamant that Slam overrated him, but I have apologized and acknowledged for and that I was wrong.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Nobody gets triple teamed?
    Crazy comment.
    If you run a a pick and roll, and the coach tries to trap the pick and roll with the big and little, and brings another defender across the lane in a mini-zone, is that not a triple team in all respects?
    That happens to Rose all the time.
    How about if you run an immediate trap on a player a s he crosses halfcourt, and have another player shadowing him between the three point line and free throw line in case he breaks that trap? Again, triple team.
    How about the NBA’s version of the box and 1?
    Triple team does not always three players standing next to one player. It means committing three players to defending one player every time he touches the ball.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    @nbk – yeah.
    And my apologies to both you and Eboy for diggin’ in the vaults and pulling those up.
    I’ve said some things on here before that would make me look stupid now too.
    Don’t trip, I got love for both of y’all!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Jahmai

    Let’s be honest, if you’re a PG in the NBA and you’re outside of the top 5, who would you be most ‘afraid’ to play. I can’t imagine anybody seriously having a harder time defending Rose. I think he’s the best PG in the league. To me, it’s not even close. I’ve seen Drose play Dwill and a year ago (as bulls fan) I thought Dwill was the best PG, but he just looks helpless now, seriously. Rose simply dominates. Now I can´t judge Drose vs CP3 all that clear because all his fans say he´s playing on one leg, but if that´s the CP3 that´s here to stay, then yes, you too, have to accept the fact than Drose is better right now. 6´3, strong, faster than everyone else, insane vert, unmatched upper body control, ridiculous handles, midrange J and he now comes with a 3point shot included, plus his ever/improving defense.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Enig….so to be clear….Rose is playing out of his mind and it’s possible that his “fantastic” running mates aren’t quite as great as we thought they were?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Enig….even in that comment you pulled he gave him the benefit of the doubt that he just needed to adhere to the team concept for them to be exceptional.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    no stress I honestly don’t even care. I highly doubt a player improves like Rose did this year very often. So that shouldn’t happen to me again lol

  • JTaylor21

    I used CP’s FG% as an example for those people who claim that the reason DRose shoots a low percentage is because he’s a small guy.
    CP is 3 inches shorter than dude yet he shoots a higher percentage, what does that tell you about both guys. Also what does playing in a slow paced offense and playing without your big men have to do with shooting 44%? LeBron the past 2 yrs played on one of the slowest teams in the L and Sideshow Bob was his big man, so that excuse holds no weight.
    The reason why I’m using Bron and CP as examples is because we are talking about MVP candidates, so it would behove me to use a 2-time MVP and runner MVP as reference point.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    E, I’d have to say both Boozer and Noah have dissapointed this year overall, but due to injuries not lack of great play.
    Although Boozer has been averaging some pretty low numbers recently.
    And true enough, I have to give you that.
    But it was a given he, and everyone else, needed to play as one cohesive unit for them to be successful.
    The point was you argued way back then that he couldn’t both increase his production AND bring success to the team at the same time, and that has since been proven false.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Noah has disappointed? what did you expect from him? I think he has been way better then he was supposed to, he has been a top 7 center when healthy, is he even in the preseason top 50? Elaborate matic, elaborate

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Let’s hope (for his sake) that he doesn’t fall into the Lebron James “success is measured by individual stats and accolades and not playoff success” has for the first 7 seasons of his career.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    my bad I didn’t see the injuries part, just immediately didn’t understand, haha my bad

  • http://pickandroll.tumblr.com/ airs

    i think thats the thing that makes him disappointing, when healthy he’s good. but he’s been injured more than the bulls had expected

  • T-Money

    I have a bias against shoot-first point guards. I have yet to see to a team achieve great things in the post season with the point guard being the leading scorer by a sizeable margin. That’s why I’ve been very skeptical of the Bulls since the beginning of the year even though they’re racking up a lot of wins. I think their roster is fundamentally flawed on the offensive end as no one can create off the bounce besides Rose and Booz is not a super reliable option down low vs length.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    JTaylor
    Slower pace typically leads to more contested shots late in the shot clock. In the Bulls offense, the person taking those difficult shots is Rose.
    As for the big men, without a viable big man, the opposing big man has no fear of helping on all dribble drives, which makes it more difficult to find a path to the basket or scoring at the rim. With a good big man, the defender thinks twice before leaving his man because it automatically opens up an easy drop off path.
    Also, a good big man draws his own double teams, which makes it more difficult for teams to recover to perimeter players on ball movement from the post, which gives better angles on drives and easier jump shots.
    That’s basketball 101.

  • http://pickandroll.tumblr.com/ airs

    people are forgetting about Deng in this “can’t create his own shot” conversation. and if you deny that, you haven’t been watching bulls basketball. so i’m just wondering, what team really has more than 3 players who can create their own shot? does that mean they’re in as much “trouble” as the bulls are in?

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    nbk, Noah was number 43 in the preseason 50.
    Surprisingly, not a lot of hate there.
    But it did almost become a “is Noah the next Rodman” debate.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    ^ Speaking of the importance of a good big man, is Mike D’Antoni serious with playing Jared Jeffries against Dwight Howard? Everyone realizes that Dwight didn’t have to guard his man for a single possession last night? He literally guarded the hoop and played offense, that was probably the least energy consuming night of Dwight’s season, and he went OFF.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I just said Chris Paul is better than Derrick Rose.
    I’ve alwasy said he’s better because he is more efficient and a better defender.
    So, yes, he scored 22 points on 16 shots and shot a great percentage from the field. That’s because he’s better. It doesn’t mean it’s not crazy difficult. Paul was the first player since Magic to put up those numbers. He’s pretty freaking special. Saying that it can’t be hard because Paul did it, and he’s shorter doesn’t make sense.

  • JTaylor21

    You call that being double teamed? I mean come on. You’re a smart guy but I think you’re just arguing for argument sake.
    For example, last night the way the knicks were guarding DHow down the stretch was by double-teaming him. The way the Magic guarded Melo was to send an extra guy mainly DHow to zone off an area of the court whenever Melo had the ball in the high post area.
    That’s called zoning off an area of the floor to deter a player from getting to the rim. The celtics do it so well vs elite iso players like Bron, Wade, Rose, and Kobe.
    I think you are confusing trapping and loading up on the strong side with double/triple teams.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    And like airs said, what’s dissapointing about Noah is just his not being able to play more.
    But you can’t fault Noah at all, the guy played injured for almost a month before they finally made him have surgery.
    But when he plays and is healthy, he is such an asset.
    Remember the first Bulls/Lakers game this season?
    Lakers won, but Noah bothered the hell out of Pau Gasol, 12 points on 30% shooting.

  • T-Money

    airs: putting the moves to on a defender from a standstill position in an island is not part of deng’s repertoir. he catches the ball on the move, coming off screens and curls, runs the break and shoot spot-up jumpers. really good player that any team would want but not a creator.

  • JTaylor21

    So you’re telling me that DRose isn’t special?
    I mean all I’ve been hearing this season from the media and fans alike is just how special the guys is. From the numbers he’s putting up, to the way he carries a team, to the way he improved every aspect of his game in the off-season. People are ready to crown him the MVP in only his 3rd season which would make him the youngest in history.
    Sounds pretty special to me.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    I see Allen’s point, regarding double and triple teams. Teams trap Rose to get the ball out of his hands. Teams double Howard to get the ball out of his hands.
    Now, Rose isn’t the only player to get trapped off of a P/R. It happens to Deron and CP a lot. I have seen certain teams trap CP off of a P/R for whole games. Boston did it almost exclusively last week.
    JAHMAI
    CP is better than Rose at every aspect besides scoring. Maybe Rose is a better rebounder, but that is not a definite.
    Rose is having a better season yes, but how you can say that after one great year, he is better than CP, who has had two seperate years better than this one, and is coming back from major surgery yet still putting up better numbers across the board than Rose, is beyond me.

  • http://pickandroll.tumblr.com/ airs

    i think deng is still a little underrated in that respect. remember when he crossed bron?! but i still think the bulls have a good offensive foundation. rose and boozer will be the focus of their sets, but that leaves room for a deng, korver, noah to get theirs in where they fit in, and they do that quite nicely.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    I’m glad Deng is finally getting the respect and recognition that he deserves.
    But just like I got no problem calling out people that said Rose wasn’t sh*t before this season, I gotta call out my fellow Bulls fans on this one.
    Y’all KNEW what Deng brought to the table for years, dating back to when he was our next great player and almost landed us Kobe, but when Deng got hurt a few season back, so many Bulls fans took to saying “Deng ain’t sh*t”, “Deng sucks”, “Deng doesn’t deserve that contract”, “Deng is soft”, etc.
    I was living just outside of Chicago in Rose’s rookie year and all year long alls I heard from most Bulls fans was how much Deng sucked.
    Now y’all wanna act like he’s all improved this year and he’s finally earning his money.
    Negative, he’s always had game like this.
    He’s finally healthy and he finally has a coach who knows what the hell he’s doing.
    Now Bulls fans found a new favorite target: Keith Bogans.
    But I’m telling y’all once again, Bogans does what he’s paid to do and does it well.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    I agree about Deng, Matic, even had a short convo yesterday with someone trying to say Deng was MIP, but Bogans does what he’s paid to do? Shoot 37% from 3? I know he’s their “defensive stopper” but that whole team is great defensively. I think the Bulls NEED an upgrade at the 2 to win anything. They will get through a first, and maybe even second round series, but they aren’t gettin a title with Bogans at the 2 IMO

  • T-Money

    mike wilbon said in his latest chat that he wouldn’t trade noah for howard because of intangibles and chemistry. i lol’ed.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    I concur.
    They do need an upgrade at the 2, nbk.
    We went back and forth about the proposed Courtney Lee for Omer Asik trade around the deadline.
    And I’m glad they kept “Asik and Destroy” (love that nickname) cause dude has gobs of potential, but it would be nice to get an upgrade at the 2 this offseason.
    Make it happen, Walsh…er, GarPax.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    I agree with Wilbon.
    The best players doesn’t always make the best team.
    Rose and Noah work beautifully together.
    Who’s to say Rose and Howard would be as effective?

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    Then again, when you’re talking of a player of Howard’s caliber…maybe you just need to take that chance.
    It’s not like the Bulls’ D would suffer or like we’d lose a player at an important position, which was the reasoning behind not trading Noah for Melo.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Noah does something Howard doesn’t, he passes the ball like a guard. I think Noah is also part of the key to Rose being a scorer, because the offense can be run through Noah as a decision maker / distributor. I’m not saying I agree that I wouldn’t trade Noah for Howard, but I can see the advantage to having Noah with a player like Rose over Howard.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    Noah’s always been an above-average player for a center, even in college, but Brad Miller also deserves a lot of credit for helping to develop Noah in that sense at the pro level.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Michael Wilbon hasn’t been supportive of the Bulls since 1998. All of a sudden, he’s their biggest fan. His love for his hometown team is suspect. I’ve watched PTI for years and while the Bulls suffered through tougher times, he never spoke so glowingly about the organization. Call him a bandwagoner if you feel comfortable with it. I’d venture this opinion: If the Bulls had Dwight Howard instead of Noah, thy’d be the odds on favorites to win the title.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    *I meant above-average passer

  • JTaylor21

    Enigmatic, you’re kidding right?
    You wouldn’t trade Noah for DHow?
    Damn, I not the biggest Howard fan but dude is the only great center in the L and put him on any team, it becomes a contender overnight.
    Now just imagine Rose and Howard on the same squad, teams would be afraid to leave Howard to help on Rose and vice versa.
    I’m sorry but Howard for Noah is a no brainer.

  • T-Money

    um. i was passing this info to share a collective laughter. people want to actually debate this? oh lawd.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    His defense posture is greater than Noah’s and his offensive skills, although not historic, make Noah’s offensive skill set seem minuscule. He would also help cover Boozer’s shortcomings MORE than Noah currently does. I understand the effort seems like it’s there more with Noah, but talent at the center spot is hard to come by. Franchise talent at the center spot is almost extinct. Let’s not forget that.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    Like I said, it looks GREAT on paper, but Noah and Rose have outstanding chemistry together and they have each other’s backs 100%.
    That can’t be dismissed so easily.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Enig….unless the Bulls win the title this season, and if the Magic take a similar stance with Howard as the Nuggets did with Melo, I would think they’d pull the trigger to trade him to Orlando if they could pick up Dwight. Sh*t, how long were the rumors floating around that he could have been moved for Melo this season. I get chemistry, damn, who had better chemistry than STAT and Nash, but in the end, where did that get them.

  • http://www.slamonline.com KulchaKris

    I agree with E on this. Chemistry will only get you so far. Unless Howard is a disruptive locker room presence, or refuses to follow the game plan, I fail to see how he wouldn’t be a significant upgrade over Noah.

  • Showtime

    Umh ok to sum every ones point. Derrick is the most exciting player to watch this year..thus he should be M.V.P.But he not putting up the same m.v.p cadencey of chris paul year he should have won.Cp3 is the most efficent player league thus. Still best point guard.If magic could play inside game more religiously,which intel they would have more wins thus cement d12 phenomenal year wit the m.v.p award.Even with a great year with 60 win obtainable& 2 wins from 1rst the critics will have maimi for fail if they dont win it all. & newyork is still newyork no matter what because of dumb owners and stupid gm decisions

  • Bruno

    I like Noah’s game and effort but whoever said that damn!!! I don’t think chemistry would destroy any other center in the east or the league

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Trading Joakim Noah for Dwight Howard? I don’t know…
    I know that Dwight is an awesome offensive force, but it’s the little things that Joakim has in his game that Dwight doesn’t that counts more for more than just the rebounds, blocks and dunks.
    I’d have to think long and hard about it, but right now, I agree with Wilbon. I wouldn’t make that trade.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    This is actually remarkable. I’m not sure if any of you Chicago guys could constitute having valid basketball opinions any longer. For real? I mean, you do realize that the Bulls aren’t the 1990′s Bulls and Noah hasn’t anchored a 6 title run already, right? Dwight has lead a team to the Finals already. That should give him some leahway from the jump.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    I’m saying, ultimately the trigger would be pulled if Otis Smith ever suffered a traumatic brain injury and decided a Howard for Noah trade would help his team out.
    Alls I’m saying is it’s not a “no-brainer”.
    Better believe Gar Foreman and John Paxson would stop and think about how it would affect the team.
    Would Howard be happy with sharing the spotlight? He’s never had to before.
    Who’s the best player he’s played with in Orlando? An old Vince Carter? A washed up Steve Francis? Rashard Lewis?
    How would Howard and Boozer co-exist? Offensively, they’re both back to the basket types. Granted, that would be a great problem for any franchise to have, but still.
    Would Howard, or any other player on the Bulls, be able to replace Noah’s intensity, his heart, his hustle?
    I don’t recall ever seeing Howard make some of the hustle plays that Noah makes on a nightly basis.
    Would Howard accept playing lesser minutes to help Asik’s development? Management has made it clear that Asik’s a part of the team’s future for many years to come.
    Gar Foreman has proven that he’s not the “shoot first, ask questions later” type when it comes to pulling a trigger on a trade, and I think the Bulls are better off for him taking that approach.
    There’s no debate as to who’s the better player.
    None.
    Dwight Howard is a top 5 player in the League.

  • http://pickand.tumblr.com airs

    Matic, I totally feel you about deng, and I probabaly felt that he let us down a bit too after the big contract. but he’s always been a huge factor in the bulls success. Still though, that contract was bonkers

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Just to touch on one of your points…..Dwight played exceptionally well with Gortat as his back up….and enjoyed his best team success playing in tandem with a solid backup C. Why wouldn’t he sacrifice offensive numbers to play with a top talent like Rose? At some point soon, most of the truly great players will ALL be teammates in some form or another, so in reality, he’d be making a much smarter move combining his efforts in a Voltron-like way…then trying to win as the centerpiece (pardon the pun) with holes in his game that would be covered very nicely with a premier backcourt player at his side.

  • http://pickand.tumblr.com airs

    But about noah for howard, I don’t think its as much a no brainer as people think. Noah is the heart and soul of the bulls, itd suck to see him go. Like it did wheb kirk left

  • http://google J-Ro

    NO love for Chuck Hayes’ triple Dub?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    If John Paxson thought for more than one second about Noah for Howard he should be smacked in the mouth. Hard.
    Yes Noah is a better passer, yes he’s an all around nice guy, but GTFOH.
    Dwight Howard. Just because I don’t htink he’s MVP doesn’t mean I can’t see he’s hands down the best big man in the league and would be absolutely unstoppable with a point guard like Rose throwing him virtual alley-oops off his missed drives to the rim. Can you imagine how much easier Rose’s game would be if big men had to decide whether to leave Boozer or Howard to help on his drives? Can you imagine the open looks he would get on his jumpers? The ability to rest in games and not be forced to jack so many shots?
    Are you people high?
    JTaylor
    I think you misread my comment.
    Rose is special.
    Paul is special.
    That’s why they do what they do. Normally, short people don’t do what they do. It’s abnormal because they are in fact special.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    Dope Voltron reference, E.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    The folks at adidas would definitely salivate over a Rose/Howard pairing.
    Ultimately it’s a moot point. It’ll never happen.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    No, it’s not a “no-brainer.” Not at all.
    Joakim can do so many more things than Dwight Howard can. He’s just way more versatile of a player. I could care less about blocked shots and dunks and both guys cancel each other out on rebounding, IMO.
    I also don’t care about guys co-existing either even though that is valid in some respects, I don’t think that would necessarily apply in this situation.
    The way I see it, Joakim will eventually start knocking down that ugly jumper. Dwight can’t do that. Joakim can guard guys all the way out to the perimeter. Dwight can’t do that. Joakim is an excellent passer. Dwight is not. Joakim can hit FT’s. Dwight can not. Joakim can bring the ball up the floor if the situation calls for it. Dwight can not.
    Those things matter more to me than anything else that Dwight brings to the table. I’m not saying that Joakim is a better player, because he’s not, but his skill set trumps Dwight’s easily in my eyes and that’s more valuable to me.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Joakim must have greased Crawford’s palm with some good herb or a stay at his pops mansion to make that comment.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Honestly, this is ridiculous.
    Dwight for Noah?
    As Allen said, if John Paxson even thought about saying no, he would be an idiot.
    BC, I respect your opinion a lot, and share a lot of opinions you have, but this is just ridiculous.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    I’m sorry, but I’m just not into that, “But it’s Dwight Howard!” nonsense. I’m not “superstar crazy” like that… Not at all.

  • http://google J-Ro

    The main diffrence might be that Dwight Howard might demand the ball more than Noah. I dont think Noah cares about how many shots he’s taking. Dwight already complains about his touches, imagine him being second in command to Rose? Not gonna work.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    I do have to say BC is indeed not “superstar crazy”.
    Honestly, the only time me and him ever really “went at it”, if you can call it that, on here is last summer when we disagreed on whether or not we needed another superstar on the Bulls to make a push for the title this season.
    My argument was if we didn’t land LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Amare or Boozer we’d be SOL.
    His argument was “F that. Long as we got Rose, Noah and Deng we good. Just gotta have solid pieces around them”.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    B Crawford Tripping, I would trade almost any body in the league for Dwight. And D Rose aint a dumb player Im sure he would get Dwight as many touches as he needs or wants.

  • T-Money

    “Would Howard accept playing lesser minutes to help Asik’s development? Management has made it clear that Asik’s a part of the team’s future for many years to come.” BAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. Ha.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    Laugh now, feel stupid later, T-Money.
    Though based on some of the outlandish sh*t you say on here at times, you should be feeling stupid now too.

  • bull22

    no zoom, its not OBSSESSION. i just cant stand overrated teams like the KNICKS and HEAT. as long as those two ARROGANT MIAMI HEFFERS AND NY HEFFERS dont win the TITLE, iam a happy camper.
    FEELS so good that my predictions on those BUMS was dead on! hahahahhahahahahhahahahahahahaha

  • http://bulls.com airs

    asik’s that dude, man! and i like that nickname, where’d you hear that from? all ive heard was ‘turkish delight’

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Hold up.
    Dwight Howard can’t hit jumpers?
    All those bank shots he’s been hitting this year would beg to differ.
    But, let’s clear up some other stuff.
    Dwight can score with his back to the basket on pretty much any big man in the league. Noah cannot.
    Dwight has definite most moves, Noah does not.
    Dwight is a an all-word rebounder, Noah is really good, but not on Howard’s level.
    Dwight has proven to be injury proof, NOah has not.
    Passing is clearly Noah, but all that other stuff is moot.
    Why would the Bulls need Dwight to bring the ball up the floor? If he’s doing that, something has failed miserably.
    It ain’t about who is a superstar, it’s about who is the flat out undeniably better player, who CLEARLY makes the game easier for the super star already on the team.
    And Dwight complains about shots because he only gets 13 shots a game! He’ve averaging 23 points on 13.5 shots! On four fewer shots, Noah is averaging 11 fewer points!
    But hey, Bulls fans love their team. Good for them.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    Your name is “bull22” and you go on about heffers.
    That’s an obsession, alright.
    A bovine obsession.

  • Bruno

    let’s see who’s gonna argue what Allenp said

  • http://bulls.com airs

    if somehow, some way that trade comes up, i think the bulls would ultimately end up with howard, and i’d be perfectly happy with it. but i honestly think the bulls can get it done now with what they have

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    airs, the color commentator everybody loves to hate, Stacey King.
    Although I think he got it from a fan’s sign in the stands.
    Against the Kings on Monday after his one-handed dunk, King just exploded and yelled “ASIK AND DESTROY!!!”
    I was rolling.
    People see his 2.9 ppg and 4.0 rpg and think I’m stupid for saying dude will be a solid, solid pro and quality backup center.
    But he will be.

  • http://bulls.com airs

    stacey kings growin on me, i’ll admit he was annoying at first but its nice to see an enthusiastic announcer now. tom dore was boring as hell, but johnny redd norm van lier were always cool dudes

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Dwight Howard DOES NOT have post moves. He has a spin move that he uses to go up for the lob. The rest of the time he’s just putting his shoulder into his man and trying to move him out of the way. That doesn’t count as a post move in my book, but you can call it whatever you’d like.
    And his FG attempts are almost identical to his rebounding numbers which means he’s just grabbing boards and then dunking the ball back in. So the REAL reason why he’s only getting 13 attempts per game is because he has no post game to speak of and his back to the basket game is, meh, at best.
    The Bulls don’t need Joakim to bring the ball up, but don’t act like there aren’t times where the big man hasn’t had to bring the ball up past half-court in certain situations either. Whether you want either of them doing that is irrelevant to the fact that one can and the other can’t.
    You didn’t WANT Shaq bringing the ball up, but he could if absolutely had to.
    So it is about a “superstar” because you’d rather focus on what Dwight Howard can do as opposed to what he can’t. I didn’t say that Noah was better, I just said that his skillset was and I place more value on that than anything else.
    And that bank shot, please. Miss me with that. It’s decent, but if he isn’t in a certain position to shoot it, it’s irrelevant.

  • bull22

    i find it amusing how i have critics, whom when their team loses, they have to pull something out of their rear because they cant really attack my chicago bulls! but i feel your pain, life at the bottom of the river sucks… hahahhaha

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    If you’re referring to me, bull22, I can assure you my team is not “at the bottom of the river”…unless yours is too.
    Because it’s the same team.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    And excuse me on the rebounding point because those aren’t all offensive rebounds he’s grabbing. Still, my larger point is that there is a reason he only gets 13 shots per game. Especially when he’s supposed to be the focal point of the offense.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    I miss Johnny Kerr.
    MJ highlights wouldn’t be the same without his voice.
    “BULLS WIN! BULLS WIN! BULLS WIN!”

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    No, you said:
    Joakim can do so many more things than Dwight Howard can. He’s just way more versatile of a player. I could care less about blocked shots and dunks and both guys cancel each other out on rebounding, IMO.
    What’s funny, considering where you’ve stood in the LeBron vs. Kobe debates, is the value you’re putting on versatility now.
    Apparently, you also haven’t noticed that Dwight’s post game has expanded amazingly this year. Dude hits jump hooks, he makes step throughs, and he still has the same power game. The reason why he’s averaging a career high in points is mainly because he’s improved so much as a scorer on the block.
    As for you saying blocks and dunks don’t matter to you, WTH? Dwight Howard is the most intimidating inside player in the league right now because of how he locks down the paint on both ends. Surrounded by soft, finesse players, he has the Magic as the third best defensive team in the league according to basketball reference. THIRD!
    I ain’t even gonna argue this, if y’all really believe there isn’t a huge, MASSIVE gap between Dwight Howard and Noah skill wise, and that the Bulls would be fools to get the YOUNGER, more talented player, then what can I say?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    BC
    Because his teammates are complete idiots! They shoot an insane number of long jumpers.
    Go to hoop data . com and look at Howard’s shot locations. He’s clearly shooting more jumpers than he’s shot his entire career, yet still have an incredibly efficient shooting year. And that’s despite the issues with how that team plays.

  • T-Money

    Enigmatic. What are the outlandish things I’ve beens saying? (and you’re debating a point that no one is refuting: Asik is a solid back-up center, the relevance of a solid back-up center when talking about Dwight IS laughable though)

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    To be fair, their coach is the idiot who tells them to jack up all those shots.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    This turned into a Joakim vs Dwight debate which wasn’t the original point of the conversation. Would you trade DHow for Jo was the argument and I said that I would not.
    And if Dwight is so refined on the low block as you claim, then why are his shot attempts so low? Its not like he plays with a ball dominant perimeter player that just shoots and ignores him.

  • Michael

    co sign Eboy, i dont think I can take bulls fans seriously anymore. I can believe Noah/Howard is even being argued.

    BC, Blocks and Dunks dont Matter?? are you serious? Noah is nice but Howard is putting up MVP numbers this season and his teammates dont even give him the ball.

    I mean Howard is putting up more points on a higher field goal percentage and getting 3 more rebounds a game and more blocks.

  • Michael

    The point BC is that they arent evenclose enough to consider not making that trade because of team chemistry.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    My bad…. That question was answered.
    In any case, I think SVG knows his players better than anyone. If he coaches his guys to shoot from the perimeter over feeding D12 every time down, he has a good reason for it.

  • Michael

    I know bulls fans are passionate bout they team an all but dam. I would trade either Lebron or Dwade from the heat for Dwight.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    As dominant C’s go, none of them has ever had as low a number of FGA’s in history as Dwight Howard. There’s a reason for that.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    His team shoots the most three pointers of any team in the league!
    That’s the reason. They have surrounded him with four players who shoot lots of jumpers and don’t dump the ball inside. It’s the most common complaint about Orlando, everybody notices it!
    Last year, I could possibly see your argument, this year, hell no. The leap has been that big.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    I understand that but you’re missing my point. WHY do they shoot so many 3′s with the most dominant big man in the game?
    Essentially you’re saying that SVG doesn’t know what the hell he’s doing. He would rather his team continually shoot a lower percentage shot than feed the post.

  • JTaylor21

    “Joakim Noah can do so many more things than Dwight Howard can, his skill set trumps Dwight’s easily in my eyes and that’s more valuable to me” Really?
    Where the hell is Nancy Reagan when you need her; JUST SAY NO!!!!!!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    Bryan just stop it.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Nobody can answer the question tho. Don’t worry guys, if I were superstar crazy, I wouldn’t want to answer it either.

  • http://slamonline.com zoom

    No way Noah is a better fit ANYWHERE than Howard. Howard has more post moves, is a more dominant rebounder, and he’s a slightly better defender. I love the hometown kid, but no one can seriously take him over the game’s one and only dominant center. Gotta love the loyalty of Bull’s fans though. Now that’s what I call ride-or-die.

  • http://slamonline.com zoom

    BC: That has a lot to do with the players he has. JRich, Arenas, etc. Since when do most of those guys NOT hoist up a bunch of shot from deep? I’m not sold on SVG doing the best job possible there either. I consider it bad coaching when Dwight Howard, who’s a PROVEN 1st option, can’t get more than 13 shots. Based on his ppg he’s pretty efficient in that area.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    As far as the BULLS go, I’ll take Joakim and what he brings. That myopic ‘superstar’ ish is for the birds.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    T-Money – I’ve done enough digging in the archives for a day.
    The point I was trying to make is that the Bulls love what they see in Asik and are committed to playing him more and more in subsequent seasons.
    I’d have to think that would be the case whether Noah was the starter or Howard.
    Granted, if the Bulls did have Howard, I could see Asik being more expendable than he is now however.
    And I take back the calling you stupid part.
    That was unnecessary. My bad.
    @AllenP – I can definitely see the gap in skills and talent between Howard and Noah. My argument is Noah brings more of the intangibles.
    And they’re both 25 years old. Same high school class. Different paths after high school. Noah went to Florida. Howard went to…Florida.
    You get the idea.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Bryan
    Yes, I’m saying Stan Van Gundy doesn’t know what the hell he’s doing.
    Just like Shaq said Stan Van Gundy doesn’t know what the hell he’s doing.
    Lol.
    And, if Hubie Brown questions why the Magic can’t get the ball to Howard, I’m going to stick with Hubie Brown.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Enigmatic
    Actually Noah is 26 according to basketball reference but that’s quibbling.
    My argument has always been about skills and how he impacts the game.
    The intangibles thing is fine, I know that’s the argument Bulls fans make. I don’t agree, but that’s the argument most of y’all make.
    Bryan Crawford has made a SKILLS based argument. I know you see that. Nobody in their right mind would make a skills based argument that Noah is better than Dwight, for the Bulls or anybody else.
    Maybe he’s better because he’s such a great guy, but not because he’s a more skilled player.
    That’s it.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    So ball handling is not a skill. Shooting is not a skill. Passing is not a skill. Lateral quickness/foot speed is not a skill. None of these things count when it comes to bigs. Just (limited) post moves, dunking, and shot blocking are the only “skills” that a big man is allowed to possess and be acknowledged for. OK, got it…

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    Allen, 26 years and 27 days!
    And I see what you’re saying about BC basing his argument on skills.
    I do think Howard’s skills trump Noah’s.
    But as stupid as it sounds, I’m happy with Noah.
    Zoom – I gotta disagree with you on Howard being a more dominant rebounder.
    Statistically, Howard has always had better numbers.
    But WHEN HEALTHY, Noah is up there.
    He was leading the league in rebounds earlier this year before when he got hurt.
    He was also battling Howard for the rebounding title a lot of last year until injuries derailed him.

  • JTaylor21

    That myopic ‘superstar’ ish is for the birds,
    says a guy that bathes in a tub full of “roses”.
    Well in that case; pelican fly, come on pelican!

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    All I have in this world…

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    If Derrick were a bum, the incessant “rose” insults would make more sense. But considering he ended up being everything I said he would be while you argued, made jokes and threw insults… Doing it now just makes you look like you mad, haha. Hater… Get over it.

  • http://Philosophervision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    LONG… LIVE… THE KING!!

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    ChiTown, Englewood, all day. When your town/city/neighborhood produces a ball player of a similar caliber, holla at me.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    @BC – To be fair, JTaylor actually said before the season that Rose was going to do some great things and shut a lot of haters up.
    Check the quote:
    JTaylor21 Posted: Oct.12 at 8:31 am
    AND WE’RE OFF in the 3rd annual DRose Hateathon Competition. HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE!! DRose is going to EXPLODE this season and will make his name taste like sh*t in hater’s mouths.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Must be one of those mistakes the site routinely makes.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    I am just laughing so hard right now.
    LOL.
    I can’t even…. wow.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    Noah must have a HELL of a lot of intangibles to offset Howard’s superior offense and defense. And I mean superior in every sense of the word.
    Why do you need the centers passing when you have one of the best point guards in the world?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    Ironic that Jtaylor21 has turned into one of his biggest haters.

  • http://philosopher.view@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    Again, I never doubted Rose… (throat clearing)

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    I said I can understand Noah as an advantage Because if your center is creating instead of taking shots he cuts away at the frustration for the rest of the team when the point guard is taking 20+ shots

  • everything

    hello slam community!
    i must say that reading through your comments sections has been one of the biggest reason i dont make the deadline at work heh.
    One question continues to intrigue me tho. How does Eboy, Bryan Crawford, Jukai, and Allenp reach blue name status while JTaylor21 and T-money have their names in black?
    Another query: Does one have to apologize for doubting a player at a certain point in time given that such doubts were valid when the player drastically improves his game?
    I mean if a player can change, why not our opinions? is it that important to be down since day one?

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    If u put a website your name comes up in blue.

  • http://sfdjklf.com Jukai

    You know, I know Kobe would really add to the team, but you have Deng, and he brings a lot of intangibles that Kobe doesn’t.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Jukai with the Zinger!!!!!!!

  • el_larsen

    sick of the d -rose media hype
    eric gordon deseves some love ,have you seen his game tying 3 ?he s back.the clippers wizards game was a dunkathon classic.
    can’t wait for tmac and rip to leave detroit

  • el_larsen

    eric gordon for 3

  • http://www.slamonline.com/ everything

    i should be appearing in blue any minute now..
    thanks Nbk

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