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Wednesday, April 6th, 2011 at 8:50 am  |  279 responses

Post Up: Stuck in Second

Lakers drop another one; Spurs’ lead up to 3.5 games.

Quick PSA: As the regular season comes to a close, you’ll see a few new faces helping out with the Post Up over the next couple of weeks. I’ll be back soon; try not to miss me too much.—Adam Figman

by Cris Jones / @HeirJones

San Antonio 97, Atlanta 90

The once-sinking ship named the San Antonio Spurs appears to be afloat again. Tony Parker led the way with 26 points, while Manu Ginobili and Tim Duncan added 18 and 17, respectively. Josh Smith, who missed the game with a sore knee, was clearly missed as the Spurs out-rebounded the Hawks 39-25. Joe Johnson (21-2-1) and Jamal Crawford’s (20-2-1) nearly identical lines were just not enough to overpower a Spurs squad that now has a 3.5 game lead over the L.A. Lakers.

Utah 86, L.A. Lakers 85

The Jazz followed up a disappointing loss to the lowly Kings Sunday with a shocking win over the Lakers last night. The day after his alma mater, the Butler Bulldogs, had one of the worst shooting performances ever, Gordon Hayward poured in a career-high 22 points on the Lakers. Paced by Kobe Bryant’s 20 points on 6-18 shooting, the Lakers shot an abysmal 37.8 percent from the field, yet they were only down by 1 with six seconds in regulation. During the final possession, Bryant failed to—excuse me—Bryant’s hands failed to muster up a game-winning attempt, and the Jazz escaped Staples as the victors.

Boston 99, Philadelphia 82

If the first half of this game was an indication of how Philly would play against the Celtics in the Playoffs, then Sixers’ fans could not ask for much more. But an extremely cold second-half left the Sixers with no chance to defeat a Celtics’ squad that boasted a balanced attack. The Celts’ defense bottled up the Sixers to begin the third period, and held the Sixers to 29 percent shooting in the second half. Jrue Holiday started off hot with 11 points in the first quarter, but was held scoreless for the rest of the contest. In what was his first taste of extended minutes in some time, Evan Turner led all players in scoring with 21 points. Although the Sixers signed Antonio Daniels as a backup guard to help smooth over the loss of Lou Williams, Turner was given the reins, and performed well. Rajon Rondo added 16 points, and dished out 13 in the win.

Cleveland 99, Charlotte 89

This loss all but ended the Bobcats’ hopes of snatching the eighth spot in the Eastern Conference Playoffs. And losing to Cleveland when you are in dire need of a win should end your Playoff hopes. The Bobcats’ D.J. Augustin led all comers with 22 points, but it wasn’t enough as seven Cavalier players scored double figures. JJ Hickson scored 16 and grabbed a game-high 19 rebounds.

Chicago 97, Phoenix 94

Despite a mediocre 19-3-4 performance from Derrick Rose, the Bulls held off the pesky Suns in a game that came down to the final possession. The Suns trailed by as many as 22, yet found themselves down 3 with 13 seconds to play. However, the Suns never got around to attempting the possibly game-tying shot. This must have been a recurring theme in the League last night. (Hey, I wrote that one without calling Derrick Rose a you-know-what candidate.)

Orlando 78, Milwaukee 72

This one was ugly as both teams shot under 40 percent from the field. No Bucks starter scored double figures, while the Magic bench players combined for 10 points. Just ugly. However, Dwight Howard had his usual Dwight Howard-esque performance with 18 points and 17 boards. The “live by the three, die by the three” Magic shot 2-21 from beyond the arc, yet still squeezed this one out. Drew Gooden led all Bucks players in scoring with 18 points off the bench.

Washington 107, Detroit 105

John Wall played every minute, except for two, and led all scorers and distributors with 26 and 12. Wall and his backcourt mate Jordan Crawford combined for 43 points on 12-32 shooting from the field. Andray Blatche had another solid outing with 26, 10, and an unusually high 6 steals. Rodney Stuckey was, again, a DNP’er. Hopefully he’s not on your fantasy team.

New York 131, Toronto 118

The D’Antoni Era lives as the Knicks scored 78 points in the first half, and coasted to a victory over the Raptors. Toronto looked content with trading baskets with the Knicks, who shot 15-27 from three-point land in this contest. Carmelo Anthony and Amare Stoudemire scored 23 each, while Toney Douglas provided 28 points in just 26 minutes off the bench. Demar Derozan’s 36 and 10, and Ed Davis’ 22 and 13 did not equal enough for the Raptors to overcome the Knicks offensive barrage.

L.A. Clippers 82, Memphis 81

This one was a setback for the Grizz in their road to winning five straight and clinching a playoff spot. Mike Conley paced Memphis with 20 points, while Marc Gasol followed up with 14 and 15 rebounds. Blake Griffin 15 points and 14 boards. This contest ended with a little controversy as two officials made dissenting calls on an Eric Bledsoe drive that appeared to be a charge. Since the officiating crew could not decide whether the play was a charge or block, they agreed on a jump ball. The Clippers won the tip with 5.3 seconds, and Mo Williams dribbled out the clock for a Clippers win.

Sacramento 104, Houston 101

Barring an epic collapse by Memphis or New Orleans, it is safe to say that Houston fans can defer all playoff hopes to the 2011-12 season after last night’s loss to the Kings. Sacramento shot 53 percent from the field, even while going 1-11 from three. DeMarcus Cousins and Samuel Dalembert combined for 30 rebounds and 36 points. The Kings are 7-3 in their last 10.

Oklahoma City 101, Denver 94

Kevin Durant gave the Denver crowd a taste of what they are sure to see in a playoff preview match up last night. And Nuggets fans left the arena feeling a little salty as Durant dropped 32, and ripped down 9 rebounds. Ty Lawson led all Denver scorers with 28. The Nuggets cut the Thunder’s lead down to as little as 4 late in the fourth quarter, but the it just was not enough. A seven-game series between these two teams will not disappoint.

Side note: Timofey Mozgov left the game in the first half with a leg injury, and did not return.

Golden State 108, Portland 87

Portland scored 87 points. Monta Ellis (30), Stephen Curry (28), and David Lee (29) combined for 87 points. Lee also snatched down 20 rebounds. LaMarcus Aldridge had a 17-12 night to lead the Blazers. Every Portland player scored, except for Marcus Camby. The Warriors shot exactly 50 percent from the field, netting 41-82 attempts.

New Jersey 107, Minnesota 105

Deron Williams dissected the Timberwolves defense with 21 assists to go along with his 18 points. Brook Lopez scored 30 and pulled down 12, count ‘em, 12 rebounds! But maybe the absence of Kevin Love could explain Lopez’s sudden desire for rebounds, as Sasha Vujacic added 10 boards of his own. Anthony Randolph managed to score 20 and grab 10 off the bench in just under 30 minutes of action.

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  • bull22

    ahhhhh, the sweet smell of success! 57-20. a GREAT DAY to be a BULLS fan. can you all smell and taste that, the improbable number 1 seed for chicago… once this goal is achieved all they now have to do is work their behinds off to get to the NBA FINALS!! GO BULLS! CHICAGO!
    the FUNKHOUSE continues to ROLL…..

  • ClydeSays

    Nice win by the C’s. You just knew Philly’s hot shooting was going to get cooled off in the 2nd half. Got to say, nice job by Collins this season to get the Sixers back in the playoffs. The coaching talent in the Atlantic (Doc, Avery, Collins, D’Antoni) is much improved this season…

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    I didn’t think the Thunder would win at the Pepsi Center. Great win for KD and crew.

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    Spurs got that 1 seed now. Book it.

  • bull22

    BULLS vs SPURS in NBA FINALS.

  • Mr. Chill

    I agree with bull22, it will be a bulls vs spurs finals….Bulls will take out the Heat in the Eastern Conf Finals and send those peckerheads back crying.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Wayno

    what a bold prediction…calling for both #1 seeds to be in the finals…ballsy

  • http://www.slamonline.com Wayno

    Also, no mention of Greg Monroe’s 22 pts(54% shooting), 14 rebs, 4 ast, 4 stl, and 1 blk.?

  • RobbieJay

    kobe looked at his hands like “why? whyyyyyyyyyyyy?!”

  • JoeMaMa

    For those that watched Jazz/Lakers game, Gordon Hayward killed it. He took guys off the dribble and found the open man when the defense shifted. He hit his shot when open, and actually played strong D, even against Kobe. All of a sudden I’m thinking the Jazz are 2 years from being a 3/4 seed. Hayward, Favors, Harris, Jefferson, Millsap. Good, not great, and most are young players that’ll get better. Hayward! Wow.

  • http://slamonline.com zoom

    Decent win for my Knicks. They gave up waaaay too many points but I’m glad they got the W…I highly doubt the Spurs or Bulls make it out of the second round. Before all the injuries I thought the Spurs had a great shot, but I don’t know if they’ll fully get back to how they were playing earlier. I’m pulling for them to make it out the west tho. The Bulls have a slightly better chance to make it to the conference finals but I don’t see them making it to the biggest stage. At least not this season…@ ClydeSays: D’Antoni isn’t a good coach. Good coaches care about defense.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    I think bull22 has eclipsed me in the “arrogant Bulls fan” category. So much so that he’s starting to get on MY nerves with his daily “Bullsh*t.”
    Look fam, WE GET IT. The Bulls are rolling right now and you’re happy. “We” all are, but damn, can you at least save some of that bravado for the PLAYOFFS?!
    It’s been a LONG regular season and I don’t know about anybody else, but I’m tired of it and even more tired of talking about it and especially hearing about it.
    The only thing that’s worth talking about at this point is the postseason, which hasn’t even started yet. So Chill…

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    I think bull22 has eclipsed me in the “arrogant Bulls fan” category. So much so that he’s starting to get on MY nerves with his daily “Bullsh*t.”
    Look fam, WE GET IT. The Bulls are rolling right now and you’re happy. “We” all are, but damn, can you at least save some of that bravado for the PLAYOFFS?!
    It’s been a LONG regular season and I don’t know about anybody else, but I’m tired of it and even more tired of talking about it and especially hearing about it.
    The only thing that’s worth talking about at this point is the postseason, which hasn’t even started yet. So Chill…

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    And my bad for the double post. Y’all know how the site can be sometimes…

  • MUBWAR

    neither bulls nor Spurs will pass second round. This year is the long awaited Kobe vs Lebron in the Finals. book it

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Mubwar talking crazy at 9:28. SMH, always on that ‘Canadian Kush’… Word to Styles P.

  • RobbieJay

    LMAO @ B Crawford

  • http://Www.slamonline.com Royal

    I understand Kobe just lost the ball at a crucial part of the game ,but why did
    he have to do the dumb “stare at my hands for a minute for the camera” thing. Dude is a all-time great and all ,but he is getting faker and faker by the day.

  • Riggs

    Seriously it IS annoying.

  • MUBWAR

    To be honest Bryan I was smoking a joint before I got to work so i’m still not out of it yet.

  • Bruno

    I’m ok with the Lakers at the 2 seed if they end up facing the Hornets in the 1st round

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    The Knicks were dishin and swishin to the tune of 31 assists. Caring and sharing like that usually leads to winning and grinning. Go Knicks!

  • MUBWAR

    What happen to clutch Kobe from last year?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Nick Tha Quick

    @ BC Surprised it took you so long to be annoyed with Bull22′s gibberish. It’s great to be a fan of your team esp when they’re doing well but I am pretty sure, he only became a fan of the Bulls this year now that they’re really balling. Which only adds on to his bandwagonish, clueless and moronic comments.

  • http://slamonline.com zoom

    Co-sign the Kobe “playing it up for the camera” comment. He AND Lebron are ridiculous with stuff like that, but I find Kobe’s jaw thingy to be the worst. He doesn’t need gimmicks, like the public post game workout, to solidify his legend. He and Lebron are both so talented that this type of bs is just corny.

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    “I wish every sport would wait till after its playoffs to name overall MVP. So no way I’m declaring NBA MVP race over till reg season over,” tweeted RealSkipBayless. AGREED!

  • Scott

    Cosign Crawford’s 9:27 comment. It has been a great regular season but im ready for April 17th.

  • http://www.pablasso.com pablasso

    I swear it was my hands, not me!

  • Mvp23100

    @Royal
    Beans been fake as sh*t

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Nick, I’ve actually been giving him a pass because he was a Bulls fan. But like my mom used to tell me when I would get out of hand as a kid, enough is enough and too much is ridiculous. It’s an EVERYDAY THING with him.
    And you’re right, he did just come around here, making those of us who’ve been arguing in defense of the Bulls from Day 1 look bad, but that ish has gotten beyond ridiculous.
    Now I see how people felt when I used to dump on the Heat daily. It gets old…quick.

  • http://www.pablasso.com pablasso

    Was there another post game shoot around to further cement his legacy? After such a disappointing loss due to “his hands” you would expect such.
    Why wasn’t there a jaw protruding look given to his hands? Isn’t it a natural reaction for desire from him??

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    And speaking of the Bulls and Heat, one interesting tidbit…
    If the regular season standings stay true to form, those two teams will meet in the second round of the Playoffs. Chicago would get the Pacers in the first round and Miami would get the Hawks. Series that both teams should be able to win with no problem.
    It should also help that the cities are close in proximity too, moreso Chicago and Indianapolis, but still, neither team should be travel weary going into the second round if they do indeed meet up.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    I been saying Bull22 needs to stop that nonsense.
    MUBWAR too.

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    When you win, almost everyone loves you, when you lose, fans/media criticize you for looking at your hands too long and dramatically after the ball slips out of your hands during what is to be your final possession and chance to pull out a win. Ha ha ha…Hold your head up Kobe!

  • Scott

    If the standings stay the same Chicago and Miami wouldn’t meet till the eastern conference finals. Chicago would get Indiana in the first round and Miami would get Philadelphia.

  • Mvp23100

    @Bryan Crawford
    The Bulls have no awnser for the Heat in win or go home mode this is a different monster I expect Rose to ball but Boozer and Deng will be kept to a minimum

  • http://slamonline.com zoom

    I can honestly say that Kobe’s personality has always annoyed me.

  • MUBWAR

    actually bryan it will be 1st round : Bulls vs Pacers Heat vs Knicks Celtics vs 76ers and Hawks vs Magic…Bulls and Heat will meet up in the ECF fo sho

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    My bad, Mubwar. I forgot that 3 vs 6 goes at the lower half of the bracket…

  • bull22

    @crawford, get over it… a pass??? hahaha after you called another user a MEXICAN, funny thing is if he offs himself and puts you as a reason on his goodbye note, you will get a free pass to JAIL… HAHAHAHAHA

    @nick tha quick, 57-20 is a factoid brother.
    nothing moronic about that.. get a clue brother and read comments carefully, you seem to be just good at presenting nothing….

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Also, it’s interesting that Kobe’s clutch is questioned (again) and he’s the joke for having the ball slip out of his hands at the end of the game (ish happens), but when LA was down by three, who hit the 3-pointer to make it 85 all?
    Yeah, that same dude.
    But the daily Kobe hate aside, allow me to be the FIRST person to compliment Gordon Hayward for not being afraid and taking it to Bean last night, especially in the clutch.

  • http://www.nba.com/celtics lightsout

    ^no Celtics in the ECF, MUBWAR? guess the joint still hasn’t worn off.

  • http://www.nba.com/celtics lightsout

    anyone else very intrigued by the possibility of the lakers and the griz meeting in the first round? i would LOVE to see a series where Tony Allen and Shane Battier take turns guarding Kobe. plus I think the griz can put a real scare in them.

  • MUBWAR

    Sorry for the off topic but Im coming down to the states for the first time. just wanted to know how bad is it to be caught with some haze?

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    @lightsout: Don’t blame Mary. It’s not her fault.

  • http://www.dimemag.com Royal

    IAMORANGE: Being a fan of a team is not just praising the team for its success. It’s sticking with a team through thick and thin and being able to praise or criticize when needed. I assume most Knick fans don’t recognize this considering they just became fans in February…….

  • T-Money

    BC: You mean in the conf finals? Miami is 2nd in the East. / After the game John Krolik tweeted “Kobe is still out on the court, holding a basketball. He might be there a while.” LOL. I mean, yeah, he’s extra phony. Still a killer tho.

  • bull22

    @crawford, thats what i thought brother…. looks like you GADDAFI rant speech is over… LOL! hahahahahahhahahahahhahha

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    I feel no remorse for a commenter’s “suicide,” so to speak, bull22. Now, about you offing yourself…

  • HAMMER

    Stay tru 2 ur self bull22. Don’t let these cats kill ur high. Nuthin wrong bout being confident bout ur team. Just as long as u stick w/them thru the thick AND the thin. Personally, as a bulls fan, got no prob w/it

  • Mr. Chill

    @Crawford, needs a chill pill…Mr Chill recommends you chill out and take a nap

  • bull22

    the BULLS i acknowledge have not had much to celebrate the last 13 years…. but BULL fans until your team is eliminated don’t curb your enthusiasm! and if we lose, we take like men!
    but dont let some SOURPUSS try to clam you up from expressing yourself…. keep it up! the bulls show is still on…..

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Actually Hammer, “the thick AND the thin” is my whole point.

  • MUBWAR

    seriously the bulls are a lot like the cavs of the past 2 seasons and we know how that ended.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Man, I’ll be glad when Mubwar’s jar is empty, haha.

  • bull22

    @hammer, oh yeah man i still remember the tim floyd days where i was celebrating the fact that they got at least 10 wins (13-37) i though t we were not going to even get 8 wins that year.

  • T-Money

    bc: there is something to mubwar’s comment. luol deng and carlos boozer are very good but not great players as mo williams and antwan jamison were (even if deng and boozer are better than those two). they will have to score consistently in late games under pressure. not sure they’ll deliver. also, like the cavs of the past 2 seasons, i feel that derrick rose will have to be brilliant every game for them to win vs boston and miami. that’s a tall order for anybody.

  • HAMMER

    Yeah I know man. But my point of view is that we don’t know bull22. But what if he is a thru and thru die hard fan. Like he said, he’s new 2 this site as am I. And u know that us bulls fans have been n the dark for 13 yrs. That’s way 2 long. We havnt had much 2 “pop our collar” over. Each fan expresses him/herself differently. Me? Im more of the keep what I actually feel bout the bulls success, locked. Just cuz I don’t want 2 jinx them. I say just give this bull22 dude a shot. Go from there u know? But that’s just me

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    @Royal: I don’t know what you’re smoking this morning, but Knicks fans’ are without a doubt some of the most knowledgeable hoop fans in the NBA. And they stick with their Knicks through the thick and the thin and there has been a lot of thin of late. To allude Knicks fans are bandwagoners is so wrong, that it’s laughable. There are certainly other franchises that come to mind when I think of front runner/bandwagon type fans. Some franchises have more of them than others. Hint: If you root for the Cowboys and Yankees, and you don’t live in Los Angeles, you might be a Laker fan.

  • T-Money

    we’ll see if that hurts them this year but, structurally, i feel the bulls need another creator. someone you can throw the ball to and let him go to work. not sure booz or deng can fill that role adequately under pressure. it’s just a lot to ask one guy to create for himself and others every single time down the court.

  • T-Money

    LA fans: isn’t time for drew to get the crunch time minutes over LO?

  • http://Www.slamonline.com Royal

    Most is not a universal statement dude….

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Hol’ up T-Money… “luol deng and carlos boozer are very good but not great players as mo williams and antwan jamison were”?! Come on, man. I don’t think I’ve EVER heard anyone refer to Mo Williams and Antawn Jamison as “great players.”
    Then you go on to say that Deng and Boozer are better. So which one is it? I’m so confused…
    If you don’t feel that either will be able to come up big when the pressure is on, that’s one thing that’ll remain to be seen, but this comment is the very reason why the term “great” has become so ambiguous in basketball.
    I seriously hope that wasn’t you that posted that because I know you’re a helluva lot smarter.

  • http://slamonline.com zoom

    @Royal: The Knick fan base is large and loyal. Always has been. There will always be a few bandwagoner when ANY team starts winning more, but to say most Knick fans became fans in February is just plain stupid. We’re always amongst the top teams in attendence, whether the team is good or garbage. The local tv ratings are at the very least decent during the worst of times. You have no factual information to back up your statement. You had a point up until you started talking reckless.

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    @Royal. NY is the Mecca of hoops. Fans in NY know their basketball, and they support their Knicks win or lose. These are facts. Seriously, tell me you’re joking so we can all have a big laugh together about how silly you were this morning. smhlol

  • HAMMER

    @bull22. Actually man, I’d prefer not 2 re-hash those days. Haha! Very painful 2 remember

  • http://slamonline.com zoom

    Oh and let’s not forget that the Knicks have been one of the most valuable franchises for the past couple decades. Even with last year’s crappy team it was the second most valuable franchise. I guess those “bandwagon” fans–most Knick fans as YOU say–are pretty consistent. Consistent enough to keep the organization up there with the championship winning Lakers.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    T-Money, removing LeBron James and Derrick Rose from the picture… The Bulls roster of this year is vastly more superior than the Cavs roster the last 2 years.
    That said, I don’t think there will be anyone saying that the Rose’s supporting cast is/was inadequate which was the main argument for the failings of the Cavs when Bron was in Cleveland.
    It’s just not the same.

  • MUBWAR

    Bryan Antawn was a great player for the wiz and I don’t know about mo and his bucks days but jamison was a solid player till he joined forces with the King. Beside u know who, Verajao was the only player I had respect for in that team

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    BC
    You read the comment wrong. He said both sets of players are good, but not great. He didn’t say the Cavs were great.
    If Memphis had Rudy Gay, I could see them putting a scare in the Lakers. Without Gay, they will fall in five.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    There is no question Rose has a better supporting cast then LeBron had, but he still carries a ridiculous load on offense, much like LeBron. However, his team is more talented, and his coach appears to be in control of the team, so that’s a huge plus.

  • Mvp23100

    That 1 spots finally gonna get Rose out the first round after that Chicago is on nothing and if these matchups stay the same Knicks fans might as well start talking about next year

  • http://Www.slamonline.com Royal

    Look, most does not mean all if y’all don’t apply then stop getting in your feelings…. and I’m not joking as of right now the Knicks have the second most bandwagon fans…that’s just what it is

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Allen, on second glance, maybe I did. My bad, T-Money… Disregard.

  • T-Money

    bc: my comment was poorly phrased. i meant to say that mo willisms and twan were also considered very good but not great players.

  • monkeyball

    The Bulls having the no. 1 seed is terrible news for the Heat. The C’s will squash them in the second round.

  • http://slamonline.com zoom

    How can MOST Knick fans be bandwagoners when everything I listed is true of nearly EVERY season for quite a while now? You do realize all of those things are dependent on fan support, right? Your statement is just stupid. Sorry but reality is the exact opposite of your statement. Everyone is entitled to their opinions but not all opinions are equal. Some are fact based. Yours isn’t.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    With the Celtics now depending on Jeff Green for quality minutes in high pressure situations, I like the Heat’s chances against them. Not saying they will definitely win, but I think they have a better shot than they had before the trade.
    It will be interesting to see what Orlando does with Chicago. If Van Gundy loses to the Bulls in the second round, I would imagine he’s toast.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Allen, that kind of pressure is something we know SVG can’t handle. Now pass the butter…

  • http://www.slamonline.com Wayno

    I like everybody’s shot at the Celts a little better since Perk left. I think that trade cost them another trip to the finals.

  • http://Www.slamonline.com Royal

    I’ll concede most is too strong of a word of a word considering I only have where I live (baltimore) and the Internet as evidence. But the Knicks still do have a large amount of bandwagoners especially where im at…….

  • bull22

    @mvp23100, yep… i have been trying to tell that to knick fans since they got carmelo, lol.. but ask them if they listen,, haha.

  • backboard

    yh, i feel real smart right now. Wrote a four-page story for our Magazine on Greg Monroe about how he is the future of the Pistons. Its on stands right now. For those wondering, its a German Mag.

  • http://slamonline.com zoom

    Fair enough. I can understand your p.o.v based on those factors. I still think the Heat, Bulls, and Lakers have way more bandwagon fans tho.

  • http://pickandroll.tumblr.com/ airs

    one bone to pick: people (haters, in general) are saying derrick rose’s success is due to his coach and his team’s success, and that is possibly why he shouldn’t win the MVP.
    yet, for some reason, in the upcoming playoffs, rose is supposed to be the sort of end-all be-all for the bulls? because nobody else will be able to carry the load that, supposedly, rose has not been carrying all by himself this season?
    people are saying that by asking rose to perform well is a tall order. but dude has been doing it ALL season. why would we expect anything less?

  • ThaWindy

    Just because your name is in Blue doesn’t mean you have the only valid opinion. Some of you guys need to step off your slam “I been here since 96″ high horse. It’s just as annoying as the over zealous fan.

  • http://www.redraidersports.com Nicolas Fleming

    80+ comments before noon. TPU is coming on strong with the playoffs. If I were any other comment driven website, I would not want to face TPU in the first round, that’s for sure. Unless I was Facebook…

  • http://Www.slamonline.com Royal

    You can get “blued up” too if you want bud….just put in a random website

  • ThaWindy

    Im cool..

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    AIRS
    People hold illogical opinions. That’s what people do.
    Rose’s talent is nice, but his team has obvious flaws. He makes those flaws less of a problem. He’s incredibly valuable, is putting up great numbers and has a team that is tops in an Eastern Conference that features Boston and Miami.
    He’s the MVP, and his team will only go as far as he can carry them.
    People just don’t like Rose’s shooting percentage. It makes stat guys cringe. I don’t think raw numbers can tell the whole story. I would be one thing if Rose was takent the shots Gilbert Arenas used to take, but really he takes tough shots because that’s the best option his team has some nights. He’s not a chucker, for the most part.

  • Mvp23100

    @bull22
    And I can’t wait too much pride not enough winning over that way

  • T-Money

    rose would be 2nd on my MVP ballot – I’d have Dwight first, that team needs him so much on both ends. airs, i think you’re mixing arguments here. d-rose’s individual successs is due to his commitment and work ethic, i don’t think anyone is downplaying that. as far as the mvp voting, a lot of people are arguing that chicago’s record is moreso a reflection of their tremendous defense (1st in almost all meaningful categories) than rose’s individual brilliance since their offense is actually below average. i don’t fully agree with that but that’s a reasonable argument to make.

  • Scott

    I miss 2005-07 Gilbert Arenas.

  • http://shinefluid@aol.com just bcuz

    if you dont like someones comments, dont read em

  • http://pickandroll.tumblr.com/ airs

    @allenp- honestly i think the bulls compliment each other well enough to go deep in the postseason. and i can hardly stand stat guys. i just can’t take them too seriously. i feel like they’re the kinda guys who calculate velocity and trajectory and crap when it comes to their jumpshot instead of freaking just shooting a ball.
    @t-money- thing is, thats exactly how they downplay the work rose has put in. they praise the defense and coach and kind of plug rose in as a guy who just benefits the most out of all of it.
    hell, he does. but he wouldn’t if he didn’t play like he does or work as hard as he does. and it seems the bulls offense does enough to get the job done so i don’t see the problem. and the only thing against dwight, like many other have already said, is his team’s performance/record.

  • samo

    kobe continues to put up garbage in his attempt to make sure the lakers dont win unless he had the best overall game instead of any other laker. what a chump.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Wait, I thought Derrick Rose WAS a “chucker” a la Stephon Marbury or Allen Iverson? That was said here not too long ago.

  • http://pickandroll.tumblr.com/ airs

    ha,you know how that goes, BC.

  • Scott

    Could someone please explain to me why Iverson was considered a chucker and it was horrible for his team but Jimmer isn’t a chucker?

  • the nerve

    ^^CUZ HE A N1GGA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • JTaylor21

    dont you love how fans of a certain player dismiss stats when they don’t support or when they shed a light on that player’s weakness but they r quick to reference stats that put said player in a good light. You cant have it both ways, the use of stats has its positives & negatives but to dismiss them entirely when they fail to gas up ur fav player is downright stupid.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    I agree that Derrick Rose is mvp, but if Tom Thibedeau doesn’t win coach of the year then I don’t understand the decision making process of anyone who votes. Tom Thibodeau has been so good especially with that defense that his team might finish with the best record in the league, while featuring the most inefficient MVP in league history.

  • http://Gmail Dirty Frank

    The Bulls & Heat are going to rule the east for quite awhile. I think the Perkins trade is the beginning of the end of Boston’s title hopes but I think they may go out with a big bang this year. I don’t think Dwight has the help he needs to get back to the finals with the team as it is.

    I think the Lakers will take the Celtics in 5 or 6 this year

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Bryan
    I never called Rose a chucker. To be honest, Steph was never a real chucker. Iverson and Arenas were chuckers.
    Jimmer is a serious chucker.
    JTaylor
    Which stats are being dismissed and for which player?
    The two “bad” stats for Rose are field goal percentage and turnovers. Everything else is fine. Field goal percentage should always be considered in context. I never like Arenas shooting 43 percent from the field, because he had other capable scorers on the team that he often ignored to put up horrible shots.
    Iverson took a lot of shots, but typically he lived in the lane and the free throw line, and his shots were tougher considering his height. Also, but getting in the lane, just putting shots up on the glass made for more rebounds for his big, since their defenders were being drawn to help. Finally, Iverson had very few other players who were scorers on his Sixers teams. Consider he had Toni Kukoc, Matt Harpring, Igoudala and a one-legged Chris Webber as his number two options at one point.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Kap

    lmao @ nerve. @ t-money…I’ve been wondering the same lately. I don’t see why Phil won’t play Odom, Gasol, and Bynum together at the end of games. Bynum definitely should be on the court come crunch time and that was evident in loss to Spurs and Nuggets.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    workin with a HS freshman on his game, and this is what he asked me, “do bigmen ever win MVP? has anyone other then Shaq and Tim Duncan won it?” Kid was born in 96. I thought it was pretty interesting how this young generation views the league and how players are valued. Anyone else experience a younger person ask say similar seemingly outrages questions?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Kap

    Someone needs to define and set the criteria for what it takes to win MVP in writing because D12 is clearly the most deserving but his team hasn’t won enough games.

  • http://pickandroll.tumblr.com/ airs

    if that was towards me, jtaylor, i dont \ recall using stats as a major selling point for derrick rather than how vital he’s been to the team’s success. and when i talk about those “stat guys” im not talking ppg/apg/rpg. its those stupid PER/efficiency things that are just too much.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    NBK
    I doubt Rose is more inefficient than Iverson was in 2001. Iverosn was right at 40 percent shooting, if not below, and he averaged more than 3 turnovers a game.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    Allen, you said months ago you weren’t gonna get caught up in these D Rose debates anymore.
    I told you you wouldn;t be able to stay away.
    LOL
    “Just when I think I’m out, THEY PULL ME BACK IN!”

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    Iverson was slightly more efficient. his PER was 24.0 in 01, Rose is at 23.6 – Rose is shooting a higher % though 44% to 42%. Still though, he will be most inefficient MVP in league history by player efficiency rating standards. (I don’t have a problem with it, I’m just saying a lot of credit should go to Thibs)

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Allen, you never “outright” called Rose a chucker, but you have insinuated as much and said that he was “toeing the line.” But I think it’s pretty obvious that merely looking at shot attempts doesn’t tell the whole story.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Kap

    The problem with guys discussing stats is most don’t have the knowledge of science and math to understand that numbers cannot determine true value all the time in the NBA. An important thing in science is always paying attention to the environment events occur and the data collected. Pace, teammates, coaching philosophy, and many more things have to be taken into account when discussing stats but many people lack the understanding of science and math to realize that.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    I’m so sick of this whole player efficiency, stat nerd, Hollinger bullsh*t.
    Just my opinion.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Kap

    @Yea same here…I wonder how many of those guys like Hollinger ever took a class on statistics or conducted a science experiment. Fantasy games have sort of put a shadow on actuality because guys have put more value on numbers than what they see with their own eyes.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    I don’t understand why ya’ll hate those stats but love Per Game stats like PPG, APG, etc. those tell you less then anything but they are used here like they justify people’s opinions on a consistent basis. Use the stats, watch the games, use all the tools at your disposal to form your opinion. I don’t understand passing off professional tools because some people don’t understand how to use them constructively.

  • http://pickandroll.tumblr.com/ airs

    my opinion as well, matic! i like to watch a game without a calculator next to me.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Bryan
    My comments at 12:07 fall in line with all of my previous comments.
    Dude is not Iverson, but he does toe the line. 20 shots a game is more shots than Steph ever took in his career, although Steph had at least one year at about 19.6. Rose takes a very large amount of shots for a point guard, and sometimes, he takes shots he shouldn’t take.
    But, for the most part, he takes shots his team needs him to take. And he’s not settling for stupid long jumpers.
    I consider chuckers people who take either an insane number of shots, or an large number of inefficient shots. For example, Arenas may have never gotten into the Kobe/Iverson range as far as shots attempts, but so many of his shots were ridiculous long jumpers early in the shot clock, with no pass, that he was clearly a chucker.

  • http://slamonline.com Ghost

    If the Cleveland vs. Toronto game isn’t on ESPN I’m going to be extremely disappointed. “Two teams, two losing records, one #1 pick, who can convincingly lose to the other!? Tune in tonight on ESPN!” Doo dun dun dun.

  • http://pickandroll.tumblr.com/ airs

    okay. you honestly think drose gives a damn, or ANY player in the league, really gives a damn what hollinger concocted in his notepad. cuz kevin love’s PER is higher than derrick’s right now. and you know what that tells me?
    not. a. damn. thing.

  • http://slamonline.com Ghost

    SLAMonline where randomness happens.

  • T-Money

    rose shoots a lot out of necessity BUT it can’t simply be dismissed that he’s leading the league in shot attempts as a point guard. can’t say i’m totally comfortable with that. i mean, monta is considered a chucker by some and he’s on par with d-rose. i don’t want to kill d-rose, i think he’s top 3 pg in the league but everybody is not hating on him. / kap: lakers can’t get away with 2011 odom at the 3 on the defensive end vs the durants, melos, brons, pierces. if i were a lakers fans i’d want phil to flat out sit odom at the end of games.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Actually, most of the complicated stats are pretty useful, if you know their flaws.
    Like PER. It’s a decent measure of efficiency, if you understand that it greatly penalizes players for turnovers, regardless of position, and it overvalues rebounds. Isn’t that right NBK?
    Or plus/minus. It’s good to get a feel for how players work with their teammates, but you have to understand who their teammates are, and what sort of minutes the player is actually getting.
    All statistics are the same. First you understand the methodology, then you examine the context, then you decide how much weight to give the data.

  • T-Money

    dismissing advanced stats is stupid. dismissing actual scouting and basketball analysis is also stupid. if you want to be thorough, you look for stuff that can be validated by both methods. it’s like kobe fans that dismiss any advanced stats that claim he’s one the top NBA players in the clutch but not vastly superior to his peers. these fans never remember games like the Denver one and the Utah one. You need advanced stats to tell the whole story sometimes, otherwise your mind always zero in on key moments to support your hunch.

  • http://pickandroll.tumblr.com/ airs

    thanks allenP but i think those stats hold little to no weight, haha.
    call me old school i guess, but W’s are always the most important stat.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    Right, well I think it overvalues Defensive Rebounds. Offensive Rebounds are fine, I put a lot of value into that category, infact when I have a team I only keep offensive rebounding stats for both teams. Defensive rebounding should be a team effort, which is also why I’m not as impressed with Kevin Loves 20 and 15, he steals like 4 rebounds a game from teammates on the defensive end. (which is why hollingers ranking Love 4th shows the obvious flaw and problem with his system IMO)

  • T-Money

    i’ve picked kobe but i could have also picked melo. he doesn’t get enough love for being cold blooded in the clutch. yes, he has glaring flaws in his game (ball stopper, lazy on D) but he’s ben on top of the NBA in all crunch time stats for a good 4-5 years. yet, no love. / allenp: my biggest beef with PER is that it only accounts for one end of the floor. dwight’s PER, although really high, is meaningless in assessing his value since it doesn’t tell us anything about his D.

  • http://pickandroll.tumblr.com/ airs

    damn, i have a feeling its gonna be one of those advanced stats days. well, y’all have fun! peace!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Kap

    Kobe was actually clutch down the stretch by making two big three points besides going Braylon Edwards and getting butterfingers.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    And I personally like +/- more then any other advanced stat, because I like airs think W’s are most important. ANd there is no greater tool for a coach then a well organized and deep +/- for his and the opposing teams lineups. (well other then being prepared by scouting the other team’s actual strategy and knowing your individual players top to bottom)

  • T-Money

    finding meaningful stats for assessing individual defense is the next step for advanced stats. blocks and steals tell us very little. i’ve never considered guys like camby and iverson to be great defenders. i know that teams hire dudes to come up with really specific stats but they keep it to themselves.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Efficiency stats in basketball are cool and all (depending on how they’re used), but what makes the argument on behalf of them so wack is the fact that people actually make it seem like it’s some kind of conscious act on behalf of the players.
    Like they set out every game and spend every summer deliberately working to improving their efficiency.I’ve never heard one player say, “This summer, I worked hard on my eFG% and my TS%.” I’ve never heard one player say, “You know, I played a really inefficient game tonight.”
    PPG, APG, TOPG, FG% and FT% are the ONLY stats that matter to me because that’s all I need to know about a player. The others, more advanced statistical data, are nothing more than novelites to be used for informational purposes which for me, makes them “optional,” at best.
    Basketball is a game that is constantly moving and things change by the second. Nobody is just standing around in one spot waiting for something to happen. The problem is, the pro-stats crowd are wholly unwilling to accept the truth in that and dismiss it as if that dynamic doesn’t matter.
    So I co-sign Enigmatic @ 1:19… But you guys already knew that.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    T-Money PER has defense involved. It attempts to be all encompassing, but even John Hollinger would tell you it isn’t even close to perfect.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    nbk, you can’t agree that something “isn’t even close to perfect” but then swear by it at the same time. That’s a conflict of interest.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    If your trying to improve as a player your trying to be more efficient. Just because they aren’t consciously trying to improve those specific categories does not mean that by trying to make every shot that’s exactly what they are doing. See the problem is people view stats like how the players go about getting them even matters. If a guy is more efficient throughout 48 minutes then he is a better choice to have shooting shots and scoring points then a guy who is less efficient. There are obvious factors that will change how efficient a player is from one situation to another, which is why you can use efficiency to judge players by itself. But if you don’t understand that a player trying to make the right play everytime is the same thing as trying to be efficient then wth do you think efficient is?

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    he doesn’t swear by it, if he did he would have LeBron as the mvp, not dwight. dude

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    why you can’t* sorry wireless keyboard is dying

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Again nbk, you just echoed my point. It’s NOT a conscious act on the part of a player. Guys aren’t working on their game because they want to be more efficient, they do it because they want to become better players.
    If a byproduct of that is better efficiency numbers wise, then cool, but they don’t care about it. The only people who do are the ones who are into that kind of thing.
    Becoming more efficient is not a players intent. That’s not why they spend hours in the gym working on their games. They do it so that they can be the best players out on the court.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    do you guys even read hollinger? or are your opinions formed out of the fact that its a newish thing you never really wanted to understand so you just passed it off as irrelevant, unimportant, or useless? cuz that’s what it seems like, especially if ya’ll are under the impression that he “swears by it” – he even says he doesn’t on a consistent basis (he does however think his advanced statistic is better then all the others, but it isn’t the end all be all of stats). plus what his actual MVP rankings say should be proof enough

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    How does Hollinger NOT swear by his made-up stat? The one that’s making him all of this ESPN money and the one that has made him the face of the statistical revolution?
    Look, just because he casually mentions at the end of 2,000 word piece bashing or propping up a player, that his system isn’t perfect doesn’t mean that he doesn’t wholeheartedly believe in it.
    Trust me, he does. And he knows that a lot of other people do too.

  • http://shinefluid@aol.com just bcuz

    anything that comes from hollinger or david thorpe regarding d.rose i totally ignore. we talking about dudes who said michael beasley would be better. then a dude who said brook lopez should be ROY and has a bigger impact on his team than d.rose. im telling everybody, you gonna eat your words

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    If your trying to become a better player your trying to become more efficient. Those go hand in hand, how can you not see that. You don’t go out there saying I don’t care if I shoot a lower % this season, I want to extend my range 8 feet. wtf, no, you say I want to make every shot I shoot, I don’t want to turn the ball over, and I don’t want to be outplayed on the other end. All a biproduct of being efficient. (are you figuring a player is more conservative when they are trying to be efficient? because if that’s the case then I whole heartidly agree, but if not, getting better is getting more efficient. they are the same)

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Didn’t LeBron note the other day that he felt this was his most efficient season ever, and one of the reasons he wanted to form the Big Three?
    ESPN had a story with charts and everything on it.
    The numbers say this is Bron’s fifth most efficient season, but I wonder if those numbers account for the fact that he’s scoring even more frequently from the outside, which shows a real increase in efficiency compared to when he was strictly a lay-up guy. Anyway, at least one player cares about his efficiency.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I think lots of players want to be more efficient. Cut down on turnovers, get smarter shots, make the correct pass. That is what efficiency is about. In fact, the progression for great players is increasing efficiency as their skills plateau, so they appear to get even more out of fewer skills.
    When players say they want to “pick their spots” that’s efficiency. When they say the are trying to use “change of pace” that’s about efficiency.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    nbk, I’m not arguing that those things AREN’T the same and that they don’t go hand in hand, what I’m saying is that guys (except LeBron, obviously, according to Allen) aren’t CONSCIOUSLY thinking about it (my main point) and that those things are nothing more than a BYPRODUCT of efficiency.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    yan (LA)

    What could possibly be your argument against Rose as MVP OTHER than PER?
    John Hollinger (2:10 PM)

    You mean, besides the fact we’re giving it to the key offensive player on the league’s 15th-best offense, when the story of the team’s surprise season has been their top-rated defense, and he’s been the worst defender on the team in terms of plus-minus … for the second time in three years? Must just be my irrational hater bias at work again.
    - that’s hollingers argument against Rose without using PER…..

    Joseph (Charlotte)

    Why isn’t Love on your 1st team over Dirk if Love is 5th in PER?
    John Hollinger (2:34 PM)

    Love isn’t nearly as good defensively as some of the other guys on the PER leaderboard.

    - explaining why PER overvalues Kevin Love

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLkX97Wc6VU Desert Storm

    Home court advantage can get it

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    Allen yeah, but his transition numbers are way down, plus he is turning the ball over at a higher clip then ever, on lower minutes. (cept his rookie year ofcourse)

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Yes, Allen, that’s what efficiency is all about. But we’re talking efficiency with regard to numbers/statistics here. Or at least I am, anyway.

  • http://pickandroll.tumblr.com/ airs

    mumbojumbomumbojumbomumbojumbomumbojumbomumbojumbo

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    so Bryan what your saying is players should be awarded for consciously going for the stat that you value? a player has to consciously go after something for it to matter? come on that’s what your implying and it makes absolutely no sense. Thats like saying you would rather have Amare then Garnett because Amare really actually cares about his PPG, shooting %, etc while Garnett only wants to win. I would rather have the more efficient player who consciously doesn’t give a damn about stats

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    Wait, Hollinger said Rose is the worst defender on the Bulls?
    That’s pretty stupid. I thought dude was smart.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    “In terms of plus-minus”.
    F*ck “plus-minus”, all you need to do is look at matador Boozer to see Rose is not the worst defender on the team.

  • http://pickandroll.tumblr.com/ airs

    matic, you thought dude was smart?? ha!
    okay i base that on nothing, i admit.

  • http://pickandroll.tumblr.com/ airs

    youre forgetting korver too

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    He said his +/- is the worst on he bulls. He did not literally say he is the worst defender. Your MVP should be your MVP, LeBron for instance lead cleveland in everything, literally everything. The argument is not that Rose is bad, its that he isn’t the most valuable player in the leauge (which I disagree with for my own reasons) because he means less to his teams success then other players do, like Dwight. The argument is sound that Dwight adds more “value” to Orlando, it is plainly obvious, but he doesn’t add enough wins with that value.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLkX97Wc6VU Desert Storm

    Bulls have at least one player on the all defensive. I’m thinking Lu to be honest. Boy’s been playing solid ball all year.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    If these advanced statistics said Rose was the best player in the league, all the Bulls fans would at least say it has a little value. Sorry to generalise you all, but it is true.
    If someone says something we disagree with, we usually question their credentials. Different people have done it this year when all the NBA legends were discussing the decision, others have done it when some one says that a certain player should be MVP, some have done it when advanced statistics have been used to question a certain player.
    Regarding last night, the Thunder punched the Nuggets in the mouth, went on a strong run, and earned a great win. I was rooting for Denver, but Perk showed his value, taking Nene out of the game.
    Kobe has to at least get a shot up. Essentially, he turned the ball over on the last possession that could have won them the game, with a rookie guarding him. That is not good enough.
    The 4th quarter of Chicago/Phoenix was interesting. The Bulls defence was good, and they kept on getting stops until D Rose sealed it. What people do not note is that D Rose has a lot of chances, as the Bulls D is so good. He committed consecutive tovs and missed a shot, but they were still tied or ahead (I can’t remember), and he had more chances to win them the game.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Wait a minute, nbk. When I did I say that a player should be “awarded” for consciously going after anything? I didn’t.
    That’s not my argument. Never was.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    bk, I’m not arguing that those things AREN’T the same and that they don’t go hand in hand, what I’m saying is that guys (except LeBron, obviously, according to Allen) aren’t CONSCIOUSLY thinking about it (my main point) and that those things are nothing more than a BYPRODUCT of efficiency – then why does whether or not they are “consciously” thinking about it even matter BC? (i’m genuinely asking not trying to talk isht)

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    Nbk, I agree that Dwight adds more value to his team than Rose to his, but like you alluded to, that value hasn’t translated to enough wins for him to warrant the MVP in my opinion.
    I don’t think the MVP has to be the best player on the best team, but an MVP on the team with the eight-best record in the NBA?
    I just can’t see that.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Kap

    Why are their stats that reflect inflated numbers versus bad teams or teams that play no defense?

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    Matic that’s why I have Rose as MVP lol, I was just showing that Hollinger doesn’t “swear by it” (PER) if he did LeBron would be the MVP, and probably every year for the next 7, like Jordan would have been.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Kap

    Fantasy sports have threw dirt on the eyes on Reality…

  • http://www.slamonline.com Kap

    Efficient: performing or functioning in the best possible manner with the least waste of time and effort

  • http://www.slamonline.com Kap

    If you go by that flawed stats crap Kevin Love is MIP but if you actually sit and watch a game Lamarcus Aldridge is clearly the MIP.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    nbk, my ORIGINAL point is that the pro-stat guys typically argue on behalf of stats in a such a way that makes it seem like players are consciously playing for efficient advanced stat numbers. They are not. Well, except for LeBron James, apparently.
    But it’s also fitting considering he is the poster child of the advanced stat generation.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    Kap if you knew what you were talking about you would have said Rose is the MIP, because that is what’s clear. Aldridge is getting more touches, same with love, period. – my fault Bryan I see what you were sayin, and that I have never even considered, maybe because I formed my own opinion of advanced stats before it became the cool thing to use, or an irrelevant thing to use depending on your side of the pond.

  • http://www.usatoday.com keto

    In regard to Lebron’s most efficient season, scoring wise it IS. The ESPN article made note of that fact. His PER reflects his “fifth most efficient” season because of his high number of turnovers. Also Hollinger’s PER reflects the numbers per possession.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Kap

    @nbk..I’m pretty sure I know more about numbers and statistics than any of you guys on here. DRose was the go to player the last two seasons for the Bulls but now LA is for Portland. You thinking you know it all really irks me.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Kap

    LA has worked on defense, his scoring in the post and rebounding. I’m not giving the award to someone who was already a superstar and the only real improvement has been his J bc he didn’t have too many flaws in his game prior.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    do you? you know more about numbers and stats then anyone hear but you just named a player whose efficiency has gone up 3 points with 3 more minutes and almost 3 more shots a game then Rose whose PER has gone up 5 points, on 3 more shots, in 1 more minute. I’m sorry but the proof’s in the pudding, Rose is the MIP. It won’t go to Rose because he will win MVP, but he’s cleary most improved. – definitely more improved then Aldridge who only switched roles.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    and you just said fantasy sports have thrown dirt in the eyes of reality, but you know more about stats then anyone here? isn’t that a little contradictory?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Kap

    @nbk…Statistics and Analysis in scientific terms and the correct way to read and use them.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    oh so you know a lot about research methods? is that what your saying? I know about using statistics to analyze data scientifically too, but they have already done that, that’s what PER is. Its the result of the analyses, but its based on an opinion of value of certain statistics. The problem with every advanced stat is that they are based somewhere on opinion of how to be used or calculated. Your opinion that you know more about numbers and statistics then anyone here is completely useless. Unless you have statistics to show that you are a statistician who does this stuff for a living. If not then you likely no no more then anyone else, but are simply trying to say you do to give yourself more “credit” in the conversation at hand.

  • JoeMaMa

    Dwight is, when looking at both offense and defense, the Most Valuable Player. He’s averaging 23ppg on 60% while locking up his 3rd straight DPOY, getting 14rpg, and 2.5 bpg. LeBron is better on offense, and so is DRose. But both of those guys start the offense with the ball in their hands, and thus, can impact the game more than a post man who relies on teammates to get him the ball. And neither LeBron or DRose comes close to Dwight’s defense. And for those who bring up WINS, of course that counts. But basketball is a team game, and it takes 5 to win, not one. DRose is obviously a winner, and LeBron is getting them too. But they’re playing with better players than Dwight; it’s that simple.

  • bull22

    @kap, dont waste you breath on this NBK idiot. the fact that he has a write books on his bs shows you how much time he has on his hands. like or not DERRICK ROSE will probably be MVP. most great pro analysts and players have said it backed it,,, when its announced it will be end of story for the majority of us…..

  • http://basketball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/league/pantsoffdanceoff nbk

    I highly doubt you understand the advanced stats better then a lot of people here, I created a fantasy league this year that used a similar formula to PER, you can check it by clicking my name. I understand how the stats are weighed and formulated pretty well, but like any fantasy league /advanced stat it isn’t perfect or even close. So with your higher understanding let me know what I got wrong, or could do better, this is going to be an annual league I put together as most the guys in it enjoyed it, so if you really do know a lot about statistics and advanced stats, take a look, let me know what could be better.

  • http://www.redraidersports.com Nicolas Fleming

    I got a “B” in Stats because my professor went on sick leave for a month and curved our grades so the class average amounted to a “B” Therefore, I feel as though I am the most knowledgeable when it comes to stats. All questions and comments should be addressed to me.

  • T-Money

    hollinger actually knows basketball. he doesn’t go by PER and PER only. his main argument is that, if you’re going to look at stats, a traditional box score can be very misleading. brandon jennings, for example, has decent traditional stats and passes the eye test (i.e., good skill set, moxie, mental toughness). but he’s an absolutely terrible player so far and routinely kills his team. without looking at stats, fans would encourage him to drive more when advanced stats show that it’s the worst option for him because he NEVER converts and NEVER gets fouled on drives.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Why couldn’t the Kings just tank the rest of the season? =(

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    *Looks around…peeks head around…see’s stat conversation….runs back out*

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Gordon Hayward was a great pick by the Jazz.

  • Mr. Chill

    @nbk, just because you created a stats secnerio doesn’t make you the authoriative figure in statistical calculations. Unless your a pro at quantative analysis, I would recommend you chill and sip a cervesa…

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Toney Douglas is the truth, Ruth.
    As are Ed Davis and Demar DeRozan–it’s a good thing Colangelo recognizes who the future faces of the franchise are.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    Damn…all this argument about advanced stats is like being at a bar hearing dudes arguing over which is the best light beer.
    I’ll just take my Guinness Stout and be on my way….

  • http://basketball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/league/pantsoffdanceoff nbk

    Toney Douglas is far better then I thought he would be. – ya’ll can talk about something other then stats, i’m done on that front i said my piece

  • http://basketball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/league/pantsoffdanceoff nbk

    I didn’t claim to be smarter then anyone else. I just said I doubt Kap is the smartest/most knowledgeable stat guy in the room.

  • http://basketball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/league/pantsoffdanceoff nbk

    that was at Mr. Chill

  • http://www.redraidersports.com Nicolas Fleming

    Duh, I got a “B” we have already been throught his nbk. Do try and keep up :)

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    It also surprises just how good Marcus Thornton really is. He’s only a second-year player but his offensive game is nearly flawless–he can slash, finish at the hoop, and his jumper is wet as they come. That Landry/Thornton trade really worked out great for both teams–although the Hornets really dropped the ball and Thornton when he was there. How does Marco Belinelli start ahead of Marcus Thornton?
    That ’09 draft class really is loaded with gems–Marcus Thornton is just one of them. The Hornets got two huge steals with Collison and Thornton and ended up letting both go…
    It’s a shame Thornton had to go off on the Rockets though… =(

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    T-Money, Brandon Jennings traditional stats are awful and he doesn’t even pass the eye test. Sure Jennings has his flaws (style over substance most times) but are you really saying that a player that quick and fast should just stop driving because he doesn’t finish at a high percentage?
    So what do you want him to do? Shoot an outside shot from further away?
    I don’t even need to look at stats to tell you that’s not the best option either.
    Brandon Jennings problem is that he doesn’t TAKE that many shots at the rim because he’s so frail and doesn’t want that contact. Which is also why he doesn’t get foul calls on drives because he’s almost never in the act of shooting when he does go to the hole.
    He’ll attack the rim just to bring the ball back out and then settle for the J. But stats won’t tell you that. You have to watch him play.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    Yeah, I was about to say.
    I can look at a traditional box score and tell Jennings’ FG% is sh*tty.
    Don’t need advanced stats for that.

  • http://basketball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/league/pantsoffdanceoff nbk

    Teddy – Thorntons issue was only defensive, atleast that’s what I heard. He was killing them next to Paul because he can’t guard two’s, which is why he fits so well in Sac, because Reke can check the big wings while playing psuedo-PG on offense, atleast that’s how I see it.

  • Feez22

    @JoeMaMa I agree. However dwight will not win it this yr bc he is still not the focal point of that offense. They don’t dump the ball into him everytime like they should be. They play outside in. If you want to blame someone for dwight not getting recognition, blame his coach super mario aka. stan van. He is the one that values 3s over paint production. To the lebron/rose thing at least lebron is the best defender on his team… i can make a case that rose is the 3rd-4th best defender in the bulls starting lineup but hey… no one cares about that. No one cares about defense. Rose is perceived as carrying his team yet his team has lost i believe 3-5 games after all star break with rose shooting 41% since then… clearly its the defense. If it is the defense than it isn’t rose making the most impact… wouldn’t it be deng/noah/bogans? I have watched plenty of bulls games this year. Rose is given the leeway to volume shoot and miss a ton of shots because his defense and rebounding is there to balance it out. When clutch time comes rose KILLS IT and they win. After that i hear all bulls fans say rose just carried us to another victory once again… sort of like how kobe was looked @ in 07-08. I call it the clutch mask. Clutchness overrides everything. This MVP will be cast with ignoring all stats that can combat rose’s. It will be based on “intangibles” and stuff like “rose has led his teams to wins against all elite teams” & “Rose has won without boozer and noah” when in reality the bulls were 9-6 without booz and i believe 23-8 with booz & without noah. This is like a repeat of the 06-07 MVP situation all over again… the difference is rose is cast as head over heels MVP over anyone else. How can you be a runaway MVP when you lead the NBA in no stat categories, shoot a horrible field percentage and play subpar defense relative to your other teammates? The answer is simple… the MEDIA does not want to even give guys like lebron or dwight a glimmer @ the MVP this yr. Especially lebron for what happened last summer.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    But T-Money, you sort of justified my beef with advanced stats…
    People make player judgments based on what the numbers say without acknowledging situational context. That’s why I can at least respect a guy like Kelly Dwyer who not only likes numbers, but I know for a FACT that this cat watches EVERY SINGLE NBA GAME.
    While I don’t always agree with him a lot of times, I can at least respect what he has to say because I know he watches.

  • bull22

    @crawford, is it because he is MEXICAN…….LOL!!!

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I can’t lie, Fees made the best argument against Rose I have read so far because he acknowledged how important Rose is to the Bulls winning while criticizing him.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Watch the games pay attention to the stats. I thought it was clear hours ago that doing both was the smart move.

  • http://basketball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/league/pantsoffdanceoff nbk

    that was well written feez

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    So DRose is going to win the MVP because the media is punishing LeBron for ‘The Decision’ and because Dwight has Orlando in 4th place.
    And you guys are going to co-sign on that? OK…

  • SpursFan

    George Hill, 6th Man Award?

  • http://basketball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/league/pantsoffdanceoff nbk

    No I have already stated I have Rose as my MVP. Just that feez’s point is easy to understand and well written. I think whether the “media” had a plot to keep the award from Dwight or LeBron is irrelevant, Rose had the season he had, all the people that vote saw a lot of it with their own eyes, and the Bulls record is his biggest advantage. Just like Dirk in 07, Nash in 05, yada yada.

  • bull22

    D-ROSE will win the award because the man has earned it with his hard work….. and most important the potential of number one seed….
    the GOOD thing is all of this psycho-babble you boys believe in won’t prevent him from winning it…. that you can deposit in the bank… peace gents…

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Did you read what he said about the way the clutch factor overrides everything.
    I disagree with the idea that rose failing to lead the league in a category is important (neither did dirk or Kobe or duncan) but other than that I liked the point. Basically Rose deserves it based on precedent but it shouldn’t be a landslide.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    If BC is racist against Mexicans than he must hate my guts.
    But he doesn’t, cause he’s not.
    So kill that noise.

  • http://http//portlandfan1203.blogspot.com Karley

    Not only was the Lakers game terrible…. Read and weap Laker fans.Kobe is so fricken overrated. 10 for 27 thats horrible.. Hes a ball hog, hes soft and he cant play D.
    Peace Gents…
    Go Blazers

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I promise you that bulls22 is making harder and harder for me to resist openly wishing for the bulls to fail. I like that team but damn son.

  • bull22

    @enigmatic, he said it brother… not me…
    peace out gent…

  • http://http//portlandfan1203.blogspot.com Karley

    @Royal well said. Being a true fan isnt just being with a team when its good. Blazers are my favorite team in the world but i admit that last night they looked worse then the cavs in some ways. Couldnt make a shot. Terrible.. But Laker fans will never admit the Lakers played bad. I dont like Laker fans at all they are so arrogant. Admit that Kobe was a ball hog and couldnt produce yesterday! jeez
    Go Blazers

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    That’s how you know bulls22 hasn’t been around that long, Enigmatic. If — you being the only Mexican here that I know of — wasn’t offended by my Chupacabra joke last week, then I know I’m good.

  • T-Money

    BC: i don’t know if bron is being “punished” but let’s just say that a lot of writers decided he wasn’t going to be the mvp in august.

  • Mr. Chill

    @Brayan C, so if someone states their a Mexcian and only 1 mexcian says he is cool with you, does that one speak for the rest?

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    I read the clutch factor overrides everything comment and I agree that it should play a part in MVP voting as well. DRose is a closer. And I’m not just paying lip service to that title, we’ve all seen it.
    This isn’t like Miami when it was acknowledged that Bron was failing in the clutch and that DWade should be the closer. Nor is it like in Orlando where you taking a huge gamble by going to Dwight in close games.
    MVP’s will their team to victory and they make big plays in big games when everything is on the line.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Bron does not deserve the MVP based on his play, so I don’t care when the writers decided not to give it to him.
    His team is infinitely more talented than last year, and are losing a lot more games, whilst most of his statistics have seen a small drop off.
    Rose is winning it this year, in part because there really is know one else to award it too. The only other guy would be Dwight.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    @Mr. Chill: Nope… But I also don’t care about the rest because that “1″ is the one that I respect and whose opinion I place value in.
    Make sense?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Wade and LeBron failed in the clutch when they lost. The biggest difference is that LeBron is effective with or without the ball and teams respect him as more of a threat off the ball.
    Rose deserves credit for being clutch. The point, at least how I saw it, was that clutchness is overriding some other issues. Whether you agree that should preclude rose from being MVP is on you.
    It is immaterial in the long run. People attach significance to MVP when it suits them.

  • http://basketball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/league/pantsoffdanceoff nbk

    If Caron Butler didn’t get hurt this very well could have been Dirk’s award….as weird as that sounds.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    I agree with you nbk.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Butlers injury took all the steam out of Dirks MVP run, at least to me. I have him as 5 on my list.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Totally NBK. I had Dirk first initially.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Like when it comes to DRose and stats. Or DRose and defense. Or DRose and whatever else he’s been knocked for in the MVP argument…

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    Mr. Chill Posted: Apr.1 at 3:34 pm
    @lakeshow I am not bull22 so you need to go to the lake and take a chill pill and quit acting like a retarded chupacabra
    ______________________________________________
    Bryan Crawford Posted: Apr.1 at 3:37 pm
    La Chupacabra? Well, we at least know that Mr. Chill is Mexican.
    ________________________________________________
    Mr. Chill Posted: Apr.1 at 3:56 pm
    @Bryan Crawford, that is being a little racial don’t you think? Your sterotyping me as a Mexican when I could be of a differnt nationality.

    ________________________________________________
    You can make the argument that BC was being ignorant to the fact that all Latin-Americans, not just Mexicans and even other non-Hispanic nationalaties, have people that believe in the chupacabra.
    But you can’t make the argument that it was a racist statement.
    Sorry. That’s just you being overly sensitive.
    Grow some cojones and get over it.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    For somebody who’s has repeatedly expressed disgust with the anointing of LeBron by the masses you are a tad sensitive to an criticism of Rose, Bryan. Just pointing out someone’s flaws is not evil, hating or unjust. It is discussing reality.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Gotta agree with Enigmatic.
    of course the comment was “racial” . You made a comment that was tied to race and ethnicity.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    And the reality is that when those criticisms are used as justification to not give him something that 1. he said he wanted from the beginning and 2. went out and earned with his play on the court, then yes, I have a problem with that.
    Plus I’m a homer and I don’t care.
    Dan LeBatard said that “winning” pollutes MVP voting. I think that is the view shared by many who don’t see DRose as the MVP this year. It’s also a crock of sh*t.
    The “it’s not whether you win or lose but how you play the game” movement has gotten ridiculous.

  • http://basketball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/league/pantsoffdanceoff nbk

    BC isn’t racist, he said something that wasn’t sensitive or whatever but he’s clearly not racist from all the comments i’ve read in the past. Eboy said something about Spoelstra being Philipino and everybody tripped how he was racist, just cool it ya’ll people say things they necessarily shouldn’t, doesn’t make them a bad person or anything.

  • http://basketball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/league/pantsoffdanceoff nbk

    On another note, I think Scott Skiles should be fired after his first year with every team, before the second season even starts. No matter what.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I think value is a tricky thing. In their primes, elite big men ALWAYS have more value than guards. ALWAYS. As great as Jordan was he doesn’t take the teams Hakeem took to the championship because he doesnt have the same sort of impact on the overall game of his teammates.
    The award is technically for value. Winning has become the ultimate way to judge value but that is somewhat simplistic. Personally I don’t think the gap.talent wise between orlando and chicago is large enough to explain the gap in wins particularly given the Bulls’ injuries.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    I can see the “efficiency” and low FG% things being used against Rose in his case for MVP.
    I don’t agree with it, but I can see it being used as an argument.
    But what is getting ridiculous is when so-called “experts” downplay what Rose has done because his coach and his team’s defense are so solid.
    I don’t remember prior MVP candidates being penalized for having a great coach or being on a team that played solid D.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Crawford’s comment was not comparable to what Eboy was doing. He noted that given a partclar reference somebody was a certain ethnicity. Eboy did someting totally different.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Enigmatic
    The biggest issue is that despite his GREAT team, people still championed Steve Nash for MVP. Same with Kobe, Shaq and Jordan.
    People are arguing that Rose doesn’t impact his team that much but that is a lie.

  • Scott

    If we are judging value by winning then the MVP should go to LeBron hands down. Just look at Cleveland with and without LeBron.

  • http://pickandroll.tumblr.com airs

    i remember what eboy said, and it was different. he described spo as a filipino something or other. he just didn’t have to add the filipino part cuz that has nothing to do with anything which made it seem like being filipino was bad as well.
    i took a little offense to it, but not much.
    but anyways, man my aunt was at the game last nite to shoot a shot from halfcourt for $100K.
    …she missed. but it was pretty cool nonetheless

  • http://www.redraidersports.com Nicolas Fleming

    I also don’t remember a coach being annointed as great this early, ever. Thibs is doing things and I think he has a shot to be a force, but hell Avery Johnson got the Mavericks to first place and won Coach of the Year and was fired a season later. I’m not sayin’, I’m just sayin’.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Well the media had been giving Thibs much of the credit for Doc’s success for years so they are invested in that idea.

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    To the race issue, I was called a “coon” on this site before which IMO is FAR worse and far more racist and disrespectful than my ridiculous comment was.
    Whatever…

  • http://basketball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/league/pantsoffdanceoff nbk

    the point is, people say things they shouldn’t or don’t necessarily mean, or even in a way that they understand but looks different from the outside like an inside joke, no need to jump to conclusions and start labeling people you’ve never met outside of slamonline as a racist.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    I can understand how what Eboy said would rub people the wrong way.
    I still won’t call it racist, but his pointing out Spo’s ethnicity was completely unnecessary when calling him a “simpleton”, because it gives off the impression that he was trying to say being one was the result of being the other.
    I don’t get upset when being stereotyped, cause if I don’t fit the stereotype, than who the F cares?
    And if I do fit the stereotype, well than it’s on me for fitting the stereotype, not them for pointing it out!
    But I do get upset when being called a racial slur, like BC was.
    That’s crossing the line right there.

  • http://www.redraidersports.com Nicolas Fleming

    Jalen Rose once called me an Uncle Tom.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    That logic is flawed, Scott,
    How come Miami WITH LeBron (and Wade and Bosh) won’t win as many games as those two previous Cleveland teams did?

  • JTaylor21

    Oh look, it’s the same old tiresome DRose for MVP debate. We get it guys, dude is the MVP, can we move on?
    Y’all do know that a little something is right around the corner ……the playoffs.
    Can DRose carry the bulls offensively for them to advance deep into the playoffs?
    Can Mia advance deep into the playoffs without a decent bench?
    Can Bos turn on that proverbial switch and make it back to the finals?
    Can DHow carry the Magic and can their 3pt shooters get hot at the right moment?
    Will the lakers take advantage of their size advantage and is that enough for them to 3peat?
    Can OKC take that next step and will KD live up to the hype in the post-season?
    Can teams like the blazers, grizzles, sixers and nuggets pull the upset?

  • JoeMaMa

    I don’t see why more people won’t acknowledge D12 as the MVP. He’s the best defensive player in the league, playing on a team not nearly as talented as the Bulls or Heat. They went through two major trades, which for most teams would cripple them, yet the Magic will STILL win 50 games with a broken Arenas, a washed up Hedo, a decent JRich.a good Nelson, and some 3 point shooters. But there are some sensitive Bulls fans on this site that’ll take a contrasting argument personally and get in a huff. But Dwight Howard should be the MVP.

  • Scott

    Enigmatic, we both know that if LeBron was still in Cleveland they would be a 50 plus win team.

  • http://pickandroll.tumblr.com airs

    @scott. that still kinda goes against your initial argument. if lebron is to be MVP, he should have had just as many if not more wins than when he did with cleveland.
    but he did win it twice with those teams so im talking in circles all of a sudden and need to go eat.

  • http://www.usatoday.com keto

    The timing of Nicolas Flemming’s comments are flawless :-D

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Truth be told, I think it’s those who don’t think DRose should be MVP that are the most sensitive ones.

  • Scott

    Truth be told there is no clear cut MVP this year. Rose, Howard and James none of them really stand out from the other.

  • http://basketball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/league/pantsoffdanceoff nbk

    I think Rose and Howard clearly stand out. With Dirk third, and LeBron/Wade & Kobe in whatever order rounding it out.

  • http://www.sohh.com zoom

    Honestly, I’d choose Howard over Rose for MVP if the Magic didn’t underachieve this season. I expected them to be much better even before the trades. Rose unexpectedly carried the team to the no. 1 spot in the conference. That fact can’t be overlooked. No one expected that. The Bulls completely overaachieved. He’s the most important reason for that.

  • JTaylor21

    Can someone explain to me how DHow “stands out” above guys like KB, Dirk, and Bron when their respective teams have more wins than Orl?

  • Scott

    NBK Rose or Howard you cant have both?

  • http://www.sohh.com zoom

    *overachieved

  • http://basketball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/league/pantsoffdanceoff nbk

    Uhm Orlando is 5th defensively, in the league. There starting lineup, Jameer Nelson, Jason Richardson, Hedo Turkoglu, Brandon Bass. With Gilbert Arenas, Ryan Anderson, JJ Reddick as the primary guys off the bench. Only ONE, just ONE, of those guys is even an AVERAGE defender. But they are 5th in the whole league. And have 50+ wins. This is no different then what LeBron did for Cleveland except Dwight only gets 13 effing shots a game. If you can’t see that he is clearly more valuable to his teams success then any other player in the league then what are you watching? – And to scott, I pick Rose this season simply because his team has considerably more wins. 2nd in the league, to 8th. Howard is however literally by definition “the most valuable player”, but I value winning more then anything. KB, and Bron play in superiorly talented environments, KB even has the best coach ever, so their teams are right where they should be. And both would still be a playoff team without them anyway, Orlando would be a doormat.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I don’t get how people say Orlando isn’t as talented as the Bulls.
    Jameer, Jrich, Turks, Bass, Arenas, QRich, Anderson…
    Why is that team so much worse than what Rose has? Sure they don’t defend, but that’s partially their fault, Dwight’s fault and Van Gundy’s fault.
    And if people think the big trade made the team worse, then they should note that at the beginning of the year, Orlando was still playing poorly, which is what led to the big trade? And that was a team that went to the ECF the year before!
    So please dead this meme that Orlando hasn’t had talent. They have talent, what they don’t have is a leader who holds people accountable.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Here is the thing. This Orlando team is not vastly different talentwise from the Orlando teams of the two previous years that made deep playoff runs. So, how can there be such a talent gap between this team and a Chicago team that clearly, CLEARLY has serious offensive issues, and had two of its key big men out for massive stretches.
    People are downplaying Orlando’s talent to excuse Dwight’s lack of wins. It’s bogus.
    At the same time, they are overrating Rose’s talents, to make light of his wins. I don’t get it. What are y’all looking at? Dwight has way more offensive talent around him than Rose. He has the benefit of playing with several of the guys for years. They are playing the same system they’ve always played. Where is this big hardship for him?

  • http://google J-Ro

    co-sign Enigmatic at 5:18pm
    Allen Iverson was awarded MVP when his team all played defense and he didnt.

  • http://basketball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/league/pantsoffdanceoff nbk

    Ok Allen except these guys aren’t who they were even 2 years ago. Arenas is not even a shell of his former self, Turkoglu is a joke he let himself go in Toronto (Otis Thorpe thought he could change that) and Jason Richardson has always been overrated. Nelson is talented, but is he the Carlos Boozer to Dwight’s Derrick Rose? no way. Joakim Noah is far and away better then Orlando’s 3d best player whoever you would consider that to be. And as you know Allen, as everyone should know, strong defensive teams have a huge astronomical advantage over offensive teams, which is purely what Orlando is when you take Dwight away. Taj Gibson is even better then Orlando’s starting 4, and he comes off the bench for CHicago. The talent gap might not be “huge” but the actual production gap is. Talent has to be taken care of, Orlando is a bunch of Derrick Coleman’s and it isn’t Dwight or Stan Van’s fault, its Otis Thorpes.

  • http://google J-Ro

    @ AllenP
    its a toss-up. Bulls are good on defense so Rose shines on offense. Magic are good on offense so Dwight shines on defense.

  • JTaylor21

    Like I said if DHow is so dominant and important to his team why does Orl have 5 to 6 less wins than teams with other MVP candidates?
    Also stop acting like Orl doesn’t have a decent supporting cast around DHow, they have JRich, Turk, Jameer, and a couple of other nice pieces.
    If people are going to penalize Bron for leading the heat to less wins than Chi, what makes DHow’s situation any less different?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    You’re arguing that these guys are talented underperformers. My contention is that the system allows them to give in to their worse impulses, and that’s why they underperform. I blame Van Gundy and I blame Dwight. Neither is a good leader.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    @Scott – You can’t make the argument that someone on the Heat deserves MVP because of the Cavaliers’ record.
    That’s almost like saying Michael Jordan deserved the MVP in absentia from 1999 until 2005 when the Bulls finally made the playoffs again.
    And if James deserves the MVP over Rose, why wasn’t he able to lead his team to a victory over Rose’s team?
    So, “if we are judging value by winning” then let’s take a closer look at how LeBron’s ACTUAL team, the Heat, are winning in comparison to the Bulls.
    Heat are 28-10 at home. Bulls are 34-5.
    Heat are 26-13 on the road. Bulls are 23-15.
    Heat are 34-13 against the East. Bulls are 34-13.
    Heat are 20-10 against the West. Bulls are 23-7.
    Heat are 19-19 against plus-.500 teams. Bulls are 22-13.
    And this is without mentioning the Bulls are 14-1 in their division, cause their division sucks.
    So who’s really winning?

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Except Turkoglu was worse in Toronto and Phoenix then he has been in Orlando. Infact everyone they traded for was underperforming before they even got there. They also have never in their career played defense, oh and that two 6’10″ 3pt shooting forwards that can play either position advantage they used to have was given up for Gilbert. They are as good as Cleveland outside of Dwight, blame it on whoever you want.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Pre trade they sucked too

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    They sucked and made a trade. Why are u ignoring that? Same team basically and they sucked so otis blew it up.

  • http://twitter.com/smileyoufckers Bryan

    I think Gilbert is better than he’s showing in Orlando. Stan Van Gundy doesn’t let him play.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    I’m not ignoring that, they were horrible then too. Lewis was positionless without Turk, Gortat was useless with Dwight, we all know about Vince. They were bad other then Dwight pre and post trade and still won 50 games and were 5th defensively. And considering age/physicalregression Orlando is clearly less talented then Chicago,

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    How can anyone even question Dwight Howard’s impact on the Orlando Magic? He’s important to his team BECAUSE they’re only behind other top teams by 5-6 games… Without Dwight Howard the Orlando Magic are a fringe playoff team with Indiana’s record.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    What does Otis Thorpe have to do with the Magic? LOL

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    What a difference 57 wins makes.
    Before the season, people on here were laughing at our FA signings and players and calling Rose overrated.
    Now it’s “The Bulls are CLEARLY more talented than (insert team here)”

  • http://www.pablasso.com pablasso

    Slam really needs a registration system, another people posting with your nick is just lame.

    At least use facebook comments or disqus.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    He’s….got nothing to do with the magic LMAO, my bad, Otis Smith. Long day at work

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    Trust me, I understand, nbk.
    Still got another half-hour to go…

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/officerbarbrady what

    They make you type in your email address to post. I would think the system would have a way to only publish posts by a certain nickname if it had a matching email address.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    It seems like people are rewarding dwight for failing.to meet expectations andnpunishing rose for exceeding them.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    Damn, for a hot sec there I thought the Bucks might blow out the Heat.
    Silly me.
    I forgot…it’s the BUCKS!

  • Scott

    I never said the MVP should be based entirely on winning. Obviously it does play a huge factor in determining the MVP. Chicago has a better record then Miami barely. If you take stats into account James outperforms Rose barely.
    The only point I’m trying to make is that there are three fine choices for the MVP. Rose, Howard and James. I don’t think any of them have really distance themselves from the others.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    I can agree with all that, Scott.
    Rose has to be the favorite, in my opinion.
    But I can’t say he dominated like Shaq did when he won it, or when MJ was racking them up.

  • http://slamonline.com Mars

    DRose: a Rich man’s Russell Westbrook. lol

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