Friday, April 8th, 2011 at 9:18 am  |  200 responses

Post Up: What More Can I Say?

DRose leads the Bulls right through the C’s.

by Adam Figman | @afigman

Chicago 97, Boston 81

Even with a hold on the top spot in the standings, most seem to still t00 be thinking of the Bulls as some sort of fad, one that’ll be over by the time the Eastern Conference Finals rolls around. Last night might change that. With a hell of a statement game, Chicago rolled past the Celtics—who, it should be noted, are about as healthy as they’re gonna get—holding them to 81 points on 38.4 percent shooting from the field. Naturally, Derrick Rose took the forefront and led the Bulls with 30 (plus 8 assists, 5 boards and 2 steals), in a contest that might’ve also acted as his definitive Yeah, I’m the MVP moment. Luol Deng added 23, while Carlos Boozer scored 14 and grabbed 12.

Quick note on the MVP race before moving on: What else can we ask DRose to possibly do? I understand the argument that his team’s success stems largely from their defense, and not so much from their offense, where he’s absurdly dominant and his earned his reputation. But as the starting point guard, the dude is playing around 38 minutes a game, half of which he spends on the defensive end. Not to mention that the NBA is more pg-dominated than it’s been, maybe ever, meaning he’s often responsible for holding down the opposition best (or at least most important) player.

Anyway, after putting his squad on his back and carrying them right through one of the L’s toughest opponents, DRose used his post-game presser to respond to the stat-obsessed critics who still don’t see him as the MVP. Here it is:

Alright, maybe he didn’t. Either way, the Bulls now have a clear path toward the top seed in the conference, which they’ll clinch after winning any of their next four games. The first of those four comes tonight, in Cleveland. Hey, at least Cavs fans should’t be too humiliated—chances are they’ll be rooting for Chicago to take down that LeBron dude at some point during the next few months.

Portland 98, Utah 87

Perhaps the only heated seeding battle in the League these days is taking place out West, where the Blazers and Hornets are fighting for the right to not have to play the Lakers (the potential two seed) in the first round. Portland jumped ahead of NO by a half-game last night, defeating the Jazz relatively easily in Utah. Gerald Wallace led all scorers with 29, and though LaMarcus Aldridge had an off shooting performance (6-19 from the floor), he still provided 12 points and 11 boards. Devis Harris led Utah with 26 points.

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  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    nbk, I was already feeling under the weather today.
    You quoting Hollinger really makes me wanna puke even more though.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    ya’ll can hate hollinger all you want, ima respect everyone that gets paid to specifically cover the NBA. His life is dedicated to knowing more about the league, and every player in it then any of us here. I don’t take what he says as truth, I read what he says and use it to come to my own conclusion. So when he said Westbrook doesn’t give up the rock, I took that as, wow there must be proof, which there is, I showed it to you in the very next comment. I didn’t quote anything Hollinger said regarding stats.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    I had OKC finishing 2nd in the West at the beginning of this year. So from where I’m sitting that team didn’t live up to expectations, and there isn’t really an obvious reason why.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    Derrick Rose’s career PER is 19.4, which according to Hollinger’s scale makes him a “Solid 2nd Option”. LOL
    His PER this year is 23.7, which according to Hollinger means he is a “Bonafide All-Star” but well below being a “Weak MVP Candidate”. LMAO
    nbk, you’ve said yourself there are basketball journalists who don’t know what the hell they’re talking about, like Skip Bayless.
    While I won’t say Hollinger is an idiot on the level of a Bayless or Cowherd, you gotta admit, the guy is feeling himself waaaay too much just cause so many other journalists and fans are buying into his mathematical formula, which is basically all a PER is.
    I’ll take the word of an NBA coach, executive or player over any journalist though.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    Dizzil04 (Chicago (MVP-Town))

    Hey Ric, I can’t stand people who say Westbrook is just as good as Rose. I think personally, he is a little immature still and relies totally on speed. To me it seems like Westbrook wants to be the Durant of that team and that causes him to do too much. Rose has a much more developed game and understands how to take over and impact games. He also doesn’t have an MVP type player on his team to share the load. There really is not much of a comparison right now, agree?
    Ric Bucher (1:29 PM)

    Physically, Russ is comparable. But when it comes to decision-making and organizing a team, it’s not close right now. I watched the other night as Rose closed the Suns’ game with five points, a dime and almost singlehandedly forcing a 24-second violation by smothering Nash for 20 seconds. The Suns finally took the ball out of Steve’s hands for the rest of the game, which is extraordinary. At the same time, I saw Eric Maynor, Russ’ back-up, use the first seven minutes of the fourth quarter to build an 11-point lead. Russ came in and gave half of it back with poor decisions, although they hung on to win and he did hit a key jumper to ice it. This is where, again, I don’t see how stats capture what a guy is doing. It’s not just how much he does, it’s when he does it — time and score, as they say in the L.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    I never said there are basketball journalist who are idiots. Which there probably are. I said a journalist like skip bayless who act like they know about basketball but have no background in it are idiots. He has written a couple basketball articles, (a couple about the Bulls apparently, one about Quentin Richardson when he was in college I believe) but he’s a football guy, he covered High School FOOTBALL in Dallas, even wrote BOOKS on the Cowboys. I said journalists don’t necessarily have control over what they cover. Its a job, you don’t choose what your boss tells you to do, that’s why they are your boss.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    So, you’re saying you agree with Enigmatic on Hollinger?
    Cause he trusts stats way more than the naked eye.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    but the guys that work for espn’s NBA department are clearly only involved in the basketball aspect, and they got there somehow. (except Wilbon, I don’t have much history on Wilbon, but he doesn’t seem to know that much about the NBA, just got his NBA on ABC gig through PTI right?) – Hollinger, Bucher, Sheridan, Stein all have respectable basketball opinions. I disagree with them often, but I respect their opinions. – Regarding how hollinger rates people based on PER, he doesn’t even really believe that, if he did he would say Kevin Love is an MVP candidate, but he doesn’t he realizes he’s overrated from PER because it doesn’t exactly nail down the defensive end. He even said it in that chat I quoted, from today. Chris (USA)

    Why doesn’t Love get any, ahem, Love for MVP? He’s 4th in PER!
    John Hollinger (12:13 PM)

    Because of his team, obviously, but also because he’s a lousy defensive player, so his PER does overstate his value.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    I do think Hollinger push’s PER a little to hard, but what company doesn’t push their product? Gotta read between the lines and not buy into everything he says. Like his whole middle of the season crapshoot about how “LeBron is clearly the MVP” – he was doing that to bring attention to his statistic, but he backed off, admitted it isn’t perfect, and said he had Dwight as MVP. His reasons for not having Rose there are sound, except it seems like his perspective is coming from someone who doesn’t watch any of the 30 teams play. Just sees highlights and reads recaps. He has Rose as 6 in MVP right now I believe, behind Howard, James, Bryant, Wade, Paul.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    Hollinger also states the Bulls could trade Rose for Russell Westbrook or Steve Nash and not suffer “virtually no drop-off”.
    Riiiiight. No disrespect for Nash and Russ, but they couldn’t have led the Bulls to nearly 60 wins.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    *and suffer “virtually no drop-off”.

  • Scott

    I’m too lazy to look but does hollinger have Rose 6th in PER or 6th in his MVP list?

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Enigmatic, I think Paul slowed Rose down when they played in NO. What did he have, 23? and he shot almost 50%, but he was not out there dominating. He actually got loose for a couple of buckets when the game was out of reach, or maybe it was a bucket and a FT. Either way,

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Either way, I disagree with you*.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    AllBall, of course your boy slowed Rose down.
    All season long alls you kept saying is Paul is efficient, Rose is not.
    So Rose gets 23, 6 and 4 on 7/15 from the field.
    Paul gets 15, 6 and 2 on 3/10 and somehow Paul slowed Rose down.
    Riiiiiight….

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    He said that about Nash and Westbrook? That I would disagree with 100%

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    No way you knew those statistics off the top of your head right? So 23 was right!
    Like I said, from watching the game, I think Paul slowed him down. How many turn overs did Rose get compared to Paul? I think he doubled him up. Anyway, all I am saying is, I disagree with your statement “No one PG (Besides Hinrich) has been able to slow Rose down”.
    Rose got off for a couple of buckets when the game was out of reach, if I remember right. The Bulls won that game because they out rebounded them by more than 20, and the Hornets missed 10
    + fts in the 3rd quarter. I have not even looked at the statistics since the night of the game, but I know that is what happened.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    Enigmatic, I think you might have mistaken my comment for me saying that Paul won the match-up. He clearly did not (although it was not as one sided as the Statistics you posted show). Rose won the match-up, and the game, how ever, CP did as good a job as I have seen a guard do this year, in terms of controlling Rose on penetration and screen rolls.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    What bothers me so much about this year’s MVP coronation of “The Derrick Rose Story” is not so much that it’s a mistake — we’ve had bad award votes before and will have them again — but that it’s the same mistake, for the fifth time in 11 years.

    This is an inherent risk in the MVP selection process. When you ask people whose life’s work is to seek out and tell great stories to vote on this award, we shouldn’t be surprised when they turn out to vote for the best story rather than the player who is most valuable.

    Guards especially make for great stories, because they’re natural underdogs. Height, obviously, is a huge factor in this game, so we’re completely fascinated when smaller players can play at a high level. Generally, what they do is a lot more captivating than watching a 7-footer methodically dunk on people’s heads, even if the latter is a much more effective way to win basketball games. We don’t like rooting for Goliath.

    Put a guard on a “surprise” team and the impact doubles. Everyone looks for The Cause, and all roads lead back to the guard. Jab in an IV and let the confirmation bias flow through your veins, and soon even the negative plays become proof (“Look at the shot he almost made!”). This usually happens only with perimeter players, by the way. A miss on a double-clutching drive after a sweet crossover can be spectacular, in a way that a missed jump hook simply cannot.

    A brief history of Voting the Story

    As a result of all our fun with guards and their compelling stories, the three dominant big men of the past decade — Shaquille O’Neal, Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan — were shafted out of three MVP awards and nearly a fourth. Ask how this happened and you’ll get a lot of embarrassed shrugging, and yet we’re headed down that same path again.

    So we’ll end up with “The Derrick Rose Story” as this year’s MVP — just as we ended up with Allen Iverson winning in 2001, and Steve Nash in 2005 and 2006, and Jason Kidd’s second-place finish in 2002 (which I include here because we only narrowly averted the greatest award travesty in league history, when one of the greatest players of all time had the best season of his career and nearly lost the award to a guy who shot 39.1 percent).

    And make no mistake, the voters are pulling the lever for the story, and not the player.

    How do we know that? Actually, we can prove it. Even if we presume that the stats somehow didn’t adequately capture the value of Iverson, Kidd or Nash, we have a smoking gun that the vote was for the story and not the player.

    Believe it or not, the voters told us. Actions speak louder than words, and their ballots in other seasons are Bose speakers blaring out that they voted for the story.

    Neither Nash, Iverson nor Kidd had their best seasons the year they won (or nearly won, in Kidd’s case). In fact, each had a dramatically stronger case in other seasons. What they lacked was the storyline.

    Check out the evidence:

    • Kidd is the most egregious example. In 2001-02, he almost won the award, receiving 45 first-place votes. The next season, the Nets traded two starters for a declining Dikembe Mutombo but made it back to the 2003 Finals anyway because Kidd had by far the best season of his career; compared to his first year in New Jersey, he added four points to his scoring average, shot better and took on a dramatically larger offensive role. If Kidd was the real MVP in 2001-02 (on a huge number of ballots), and the stats were somehow missing that, then surely he was even more valuable in 2002-03 and should have cruised to the trophy.

    You know how many first-place MVP votes Kidd got in 2003? Bupkus. Zilch. Zippo. Kidd had only 31 total points, for a ninth-place finish that put him right behind Detroit’s Ben Wallace. If people weren’t voting for the story in 2002, as opposed to the player, explain that one.

    • Nash is an equally strong example. As everyone knows, he won the MVP in 2005, sporting a player efficiency rating of 22.04 while joining with a dominant power forward to lead a 62-win team. What few people realize is that two years earlier, he had teamed up with a dominant power forward to win 60 games and tie for the best record in the West; he had a better PER that season (23.51) and played more minutes. For his efforts he received one fifth-place vote.

    The difference between those seasons, obviously, was that in 2004-05 Nash was a great story, because he had just joined a 29-win team that surprisingly rose to first in the West. The 2002-03 Mavericks were already good, so his performance there was deemed a minor event.

    • You can do this exercise with several other Nash seasons. For instance, Nash won the MVP with a PER of 23.29 in 2006, leading a 54-win team in the conference finals. In 2009-10, Nash had a PER of 21.25 and led a 54-win team to the conference finals. He finished eighth and didn’t get a single first-place vote. Nash also finished a distant second behind Dirk Nowitzki the year he had his best statistical season, 2006-07, and won 61 games. Again, it sure seems like the story was the dividing factor between these seasons, and not the player.

    • Iverson outperformed his MVP season in both 2004-05 and 2005-06; he had a comparable PER in more minutes in the former and a better PER in more minutes in the latter. He didn’t come close to winning in either season, finishing fifth in 2005 and getting just a single fifth-place vote in 2006.

    (Side note: If you don’t like PER, you can use any other measures and get the same answers, which shouldn’t be a surprise, since PER is essentially a summary of all the other statistical categories.)

    What’s the explanation for this other than that the voters went for the best story instead of the best player? Did all three of these guys suddenly become crappier leaders or lose their clutch mojo in those other seasons?

    No — they just weren’t hot stories.

    The burden of proof

    The same thing is going to happen this season with “The Derrick Rose Story.”

    Let me emphasize that Rose is indeed a very valuable player, and that what he and the Bulls have done this season is undeniably a great story. It does not, however, make him more valuable than every single other player in the entire league, and the evidence for this is abundantly clear to anyone who cares to look for it. Sorry, but if you want me to build the pedestal that high, I’m gonna need some more concrete for the foundation.

    This part gets Rose fans terribly upset, but it’s really basic: There is a glaring lack of evidence that he is as valuable as has been claimed. It’s not just a question of one selected number or another not supporting his case. It’s that none of the numbers do.

    I’m not cherry-picking stats to support some covert Rose-hating agenda. I literally cannot find a single shred of data, anywhere, to support the idea that he’s the most valuable player in the league.

    Rose already has an uphill climb in any logical debate — his status as the front-runner rests uneasily beside the fact that he’d be the fourth-best player in the state of Florida. This is where people point out that “Most Valuable” and “Best” aren’t necessarily the same thing, and that’s correct.

    But it does shift the burden of proof. If you’re going to tell me that Rose has been more valuable this season in spite of those facts, you better bring a hell of a lot more to the table than, “But watch him play!” (For the record, I’ve seen him in person four times this season and countless other games on the tube.)

    Digging for proof

    This always gets people screaming and yelling about those infernal statheads, as though it’s some kind of horrible imposition to ask for actual hard evidence to back up an MVP vote.

    “Nobody has carried a greater burden than Rose,” it’s been said, and in an extremely narrow sense that’s almost true — only Kobe Bryant has used more possessions. Carrying the burden well, on the other hand, hasn’t been his strong suit, as his middling true shooting percentage attests. More obviously, there are greater burdens than handling the ball for 20 seconds on every trip. Dwight Howard, for instance, carries the burden of being his team’s entire defense and absorbing vicious beatings on offense, but it’s tough to package that in a highlight reel.

    “Rose won without Carlos Boozer and Joakim Noah,” it’s been said, and certainly the Bulls did just that. However, even when those players were out, the Bulls outscored opponents when Rose was off the court, suggesting they were far more than the one-man band that’s been depicted. None of the Bulls’ other players are big stars, and this throws people, but Chicago’s depth and defensive ability have carried it this year.

    And finally, there’s the idea of his indispensability — it’s the “they’re nothing without him” approach. If that’s the case, the Bulls should perform much worse when he’s off the court than they do. Certainly, it’s the case with most other stars. The Heat are 10.49 points per 100 possessions worse without LeBron James this season; the Mavs, 16.68 points worse without Dirk Nowitzki; the Magic, 6.95 worse without Howard, and the Lakers, 6.20 worse without Bryant.

    Rose’s Bulls? They lose just 1.49 points per 100 possessions. When he’s off the court, they still outscore opponents by 6.78 per 100, which roughly translates to a 55-win team.

    Now, that first measure does understate Rose’s impact, because he’s played a lot of minutes with guys like Keith Bogans and Kurt Thomas. You can get more scientific by adjusting for the players Rose players with and against, as basketballvalue.com does, and the difference becomes a more respectable 8.60. But that isn’t the biggest difference in the league, or even close to it. Howard benefits from the same math — Orlando is 12.36 points better per 100 possessions with him on the court after said adjustment.

    Yes, these stats are notoriously noisy. But as I noted above, “The Derrick Rose Story” doesn’t have compelling evidence to start with; this is another plank of non-support.

    Other arguments similarly fall flat. “Look at Rose’s impact on the Bulls’ winning,” you say. Well, Chicago has certainly won a ton, and they’ve done it with a suffocating defense than ranks first in the league.

    Rose? He’s arguably been the least important part of that equation. While I’d argue the stats undervalue his defensive improvement this season, it’s a bit jarring to find out that the Bulls actually give up dramatically fewer points the second he exits the game.

    As for the argument that Rose was the catalyst for the defense anyway, because of his buy-in to coach Tim Thibodeau’s approach … I agree that was a necessary condition for Chicago’s success. But has it really come to this? Are we really giving out an MVP trophy with “actually tried on defense for a change” as a key bullet point in the résumé?

    If Rose is indispensable, however, we might also try to remove him from the Bulls entirely and see what happens. The equation everyone tries to make in their head is what I call the “bad backup” test, which holds that since Rose would be replaced by C.J. Watson while LeBron James would be replaced by Dwyane Wade, then Rose must be more valuable.

    In this test, there’s no reason to focus on just the team, however. A better version of this test will lead you directly to this year’s true MVP:

    Whom else in the league could you replace this player with?

    That’s really what we want to know, isn’t it? If you could trade the player tomorrow and replace him with somebody just as good, it’s hard to make a case that he’s the single most valuable player in the league, right?

    In Rose’s case, it’s pretty apparent that you could replace him with Russell Westbrook and suffer virtually no drop-off. They both use an equally large chunk of their team’s possessions, and use them almost exactly the same way in terms of shot-pass decisions and spots on the floor. Rose shoots more jumpers and Westbrook takes more free throws, but by and large you’d get the same results.

    Not a fan of Westbrook? Fine. You can try the same exercise with Nash, or Chris Paul, or Deron Williams, or even Wade, who despite being a 2 has a lot of similar attributes to Rose. One can argue for days whether Rose is a bit better than these players, and if so, by how much, but we’re talking about small change here. And it’s not just that there’s one particular player you could replace Rose with and suffer only marginal decline; there are several such players.

    Now, let’s try the same exercise with another player.

    Who could replace Dwight Howard?

    Anyone?

    [Taps foot]

    Got a candidate in mind yet?

    [Looks at watch]

    No, I mean from this season, not 1995. Try again.

    [Crickets chirping]

    Still waiting …

    The conclusion is obvious, isn’t it?

    Dwight Howard is the most irreplaceable player in the league.

    This is the ultimate reason not to vote “The Derrick Rose Story” for MVP: Every argument put forward for him works better for somebody else, and in particular works better for Howard.

    This last one is the most damning, however. Put Westbrook, Paul or Williams in for Rose and the Bulls might slip a couple of games. Might. Put any other player in Howard’s position and the Magic immediately turn to sawdust. It’s not just that he’s second in the league in PER and seventh in adjusted plus-minus; it’s that no other center can touch him in either category, and the one who is closest (Andrew Bynum) has played half as many minutes.

    Unlike “The Derrick Rose Story,” Howard’s case has more than just raw emotion to support it. The Magic are third in the NBA in defensive efficiency — ahead of Miami, Milwaukee, the Lakers and Dallas, among others — even though nobody else in their top eight is even an average defensive player. An Orlando team that often plays Gilbert Arenas, Hedo Turkoglu and Ryan Anderson at the same time still gets elite defensive results because Howard so completely controls the paint behind them.

    Offensively, Howard’s fingerprints are everywhere, too — not just with the dunks, but with the fouls he draws that put opponents in the bonus and hand his teammates easy freebies, and the clean 3-point looks that come without his ever touching the ball. It’s not always pretty, but it’s hugely valuable.

    So why have the Magic not won more games than the Bulls? Because, to borrow everyone’s favorite line about Rose, Howard has played the entire season without Boozer and Noah, and Luol Deng. Any of these three would be the second-best player on the Magic. Compare the benches and you’ll get a similar laugh riot; the Bulls have arguably the league’s best backup center, for instance, while the Magic don’t even keep one on the roster.

    Unfortunately, the momentum is probably too far gone at this point. We like great stories and we don’t particularly enjoy rooting for Goliath, so “The Derrick Rose Story” will win the MVP trophy when it should probably finish sixth or seventh, and Howard will end up in the same shafted company as Shaq, Garnett and Duncan before him.

    But let’s not kid ourselves. In the end, this vote says a lot more about us than it does about either Rose or Howard.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    Holy f*ck that’s a long a** comment.
    My bad, y’all!
    nbk, just google “Truth About the Derrick Rose Story”, unless you actually don’t mind trying to read that comment.

  • http://slamonline.com AllBall

    I tried, it was too long. Read my two prior comments and reply if you get chance.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    AllBall, I still think Hinrich and Holiday did the best jobs on Rose, individually.
    As a team, I think the Warrios played the best team defense on Rose this year, believe it or not.
    But Paul was better than most, I’ll give you that.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    I read it Matic, i just got home from work so I’m on my phone, who wrote that? And what do you feel about it?

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Not who, when did hollinger write that? I know it’s hollinger, commenting while settling in at home made me a little absent minded

  • Manu

    enigmatic ur an idiot….jkidd took the worst team in nba history 2 ever make a finals to back2back nba finals…idiot idiot idiot

  • Manu

    allen iversons top 30 all time…AI took a bunch of scrubs n aging mutombo to the best record in the league behind LA and to the finals and made aaron mckkie the 6th man of the yr…iverson deserved it over shaq in 01 by a mile…not even close

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    Manu, I copied and pasted an article by John Hollinger that I disagree with nearly 100%.
    Do us all a favor and try to keep up or don’t post on here ever again. “idiot idiot idiot”.
    nbk, he wrote that on March 31st.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Paul slowed him for the first half. Then rose took over. There were no garbage stats he just killed in the second half and played better defense.

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Yeah I don’t much respect that POV at all. Statistics totally disregard a players impact on his teammates. Which is why Nash deserved that second MVP IMO, and why Kidd got absolutely shafted that second year when he finished behind Ben Wallace lol. That’s why I like Hollingers PER and respect his opinion, but don’t really agree with it. As I’ve said for a while, Rose is my MVP too. But if you took him and Dwight off the same team is he literally more valuable, probably not. Is that the deciding factor? F*ck no, that’s supportive evidence for Howard but Orlando is already a worse team, the logic is sound that they would be even worse without their best player then Chicago. And that’s where hollinger fails, he fails to recognize that it’s not that these guys are the “best player” it’s that they put their teams over the top while carrying the vast majority of the weight on their shoulders. Nash did it without Amare (on offense), Iverson (on offense) and rose (on offense) – trend! – coincidentally having that much defensive attention on you also really hurts efficiency – another place where hollinger fails, and the root of most of my arguments – why rose is MVP, why nash’s second was deserved. And the opposite being try for why – Kobe Bryant is overrated by so many people (laker fans primarily), why russel Westbrook is overrated, why David west is overrated and so on.

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    I mean, there’s no denying Howard is extremely valuable to his team, perhaps even more valuable than Rose is to the Bulls.
    But not THAT MUCH more valuable.
    And if Rose gets penalized for this, that and a third, shouldn’t Howard be penalized for at least getting T’d up so damn much, costing his team games?

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    And can someone please explain to me the logic behind typing “ur an idiot”?
    How is that supposed to prove you’re intellectually superior to someone when it simply proves you can’t even spell “you’re” correctly?
    But I digress….

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Oh yes Dwight’s technical thing, if Allen is around I oh him an ” I see what you mean, my bad” cuz he said Howard has a negative effect on his teammates, and it’s really true. Saw that the other night. I still have him as a close second cuz I really do think Orlando is horrid and he’s really pulling a LeBron by getting them to 50 wins. And he’s putting up his offensive miners on like 14 shots a game, that’s 3 less then Russel Westbrook. And he’s the leading scorer on Orlando, as opposed to playing with the leading scorer in the whole entire league

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    I really like nbk’s point there. no sarcasm. “That’s why I like Hollingers PER and respect his opinion, but don’t really agree with it. As I’ve said for a while, Rose is my MVP too. But if you took him and Dwight off the same team is he literally more valuable, probably not. Is that the deciding factor? F*ck no, that’s supportive evidence for Howard but Orlando is already a worse team, the logic is sound that they would be even worse without their best player then Chicago.”

  • http://nobulljive.com Enigmatic

    So we’re back at square one.
    Agreeing on Rose for MVP.
    Agreeing on the importance of Howard to the Magic.
    And disagreeing on whether Hollinger deserves our respect or not. LOL

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    my all-nba teams? not that anybody cares
    1st-paul/deron,wade,lebron,durant,dwight
    2nd-rose,nash,kobe,melo,dirk,aldridge(i should probably have kobe on the first team..but whatever
    3rd-rondo,westbrook,griffin,amare,gasol

    I would put rose over paul/deron but he turns the ball over more..and despite his improved defense is not as good as they are defensively. also they shoot better from 3, and are more efficient. and have had more injuries

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Gotta have 2G 2F 1C – this year will e 1st team – Rose Kobe(orWade) LeBron Durant and Howard. After that 2nd and 3rd are opinions. Atleast that’s how I see it

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    Wow my bad dat, I read your first team wrong. Btw u already got some respect by being a non-bias bulls fan from me

  • http://Slamonline.com Nbk

    I do however think your discounting how much Chicago relies on Rose. Williams and Paul are betterore efficient players, but they aren’t carrying the load for the best team in their conference. They dont/wouldn’t even have homecourt. And winning is king

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    PER does not assess intangibles which is it sucks because basketball is as much about intangibles as any stat.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Warning this bird vs magic documentary.
    1. If Bird was black he would have bee called a thug.
    2. The boy could play.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    So magic choked the first time he faced Bird in the finals then beat himbthe next two tlee as payback. You never hear it told like that.

  • BostonBaller

    Hey hey hey family, First of all I’m sure that anyone who actually knows hoop did NOT laugh at the cover or statement that rose made in SLAM about being MVP. I know I didn’t. Secondly, at the time yes I was not sure who would start in the ASG as pg but said it didn’t matter. At the time BOTH pg’s were playing outstanding ball therefore it was not a joke to think RR could start instead of DR. Wow, how short are the memories of those who want to make a point. Yes, DR is playing like the MCVP and RR certainly isn’t playing well at all but do you think he lost all of his game over a few months and will never play well again? lol. I look forward to a battle in the playoffs just like last time where RR was dominate and so was DR.

  • BostonBaller

    BTW, I think w/out the allstars RR would score a lot more than he does now and still get his assists. If DR was on the C’s he’d have a lot more assists and his scoring would be down. Therefore that lame excuse of RR being mediocre w/out the “big 3″ is laughable. He went nuts in the playoffs w/out KG there and while both Ray and PP struggled during huge stretches.

  • BostonBaller

    Bird was indeed straight up Mobster on the court and Magic was down right Gangsta with a smile. It was simply electric every time those two faced each other regardless of how the stories are told/twisted. Magic’s Showtime vs Bird’s Beattown. I’m not sure how many of you are old enough to have seen these match ups live but nothing now even comes close to that true rivalry. NOTHING.

  • http://www.slamonline.com c_cantrell

    westbrook should be 2nd team all nba ahead of paul, williams, rondo, and nash.. he has a far more successful season than all four of these guys

  • http://philosopher.vision@blogspot.com The Philosopher

    My guy, the BostonBaller.

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    i feel you bostonballer…i’m actually not old enough to have seen those matchups though. and i agree rondo is gonnna come back hard at rose. but
    personally i think outside of that system…with less efficient and experienced players rondo wouldn’t be nearly as good. imho
    @nbk I’m actually a heat fan…but i really like derrick rose’s game. I saw a little bit of homie at memphis, and really became a fan of him when he took it to rondo in 09.

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    pierce and allen spreads the floor for him, he cant shoot etc etc we’ve heard all heard the arguments…outside of defense and rebounding there’s not that much rondo does better than rose(i think rondo does have slightly better court vision, but that’s only because NOBODY guards him on the perimeter so obviously he can see the floor better)

  • BostonBaller

    WZUP Philosopher?? I was at the game Tuesday night and it didn’t feel right, the whole atmosphere was wrong. I still prefer to watch games at home. I hate the luxury boxes the most, they are so generic to the game. lol

  • BostonBaller

    WZUP Philosopher?? I was at the game Tuesday night and it didn’t feel right, the whole atmosphere was wrong. I still prefer to watch games at home. I hat the luxury boxes the most, they are so generic to the game. lol

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