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Thursday, November 17th, 2011 at 10:55 am  |  290 responses

Billy Hunter: ‘Maybe We Can Start Our Own League’


by Marcel Mutoni @marcel_mutoni

Billy Hunter (now the Executive Director of the NBA Players’ Trade Association, or something to that effect) and NFLPA head DeMaurice Smith spoke at a panel yesterday, and the author Touré captured some of the key talking points, and posted them on his Twitter page last night.

The big take-away was renewed talk of NBA players possibly starting their own league (word to Amar’e Stoudemire):

Billy Hunter: “Maybe we can start our own league. There are faculties where we can do that. Can’t play at MSG but can play at St John’s.” … There’s talk of getting a TV deal and creating a new league but it’d have to be with a network that’s unafraid to cross the NBA.

Billy Hunter: “The owners are scared of LeBron style movement and want to keep players wedded to franchises … The players’ decision to blow up the union [decertify] was unanimous. They were high-fiving, sayin let’s get it on!”

“The season is not yet on life support. There’s still time to put on an abbreviated season.”

According to Touré, Hunter also touched on how the NBA is failing to properly market itself in China (the world’s biggest hoops market) despite the League’s incredible growth, claimed that the NBA doesn’t have the “will” to reach a labor deal, and re-affirmed his opposition to a hard salary cap.

As for the talk of players creating their own, separate league, that’s all it is at the moment: just talk. Here’s to hoping a deal can be worked out with the NBA before this turns into its own interminable battle and debate.

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  • http://nasteedunx.blogspot.com Nasteedunx

    Oh no, not this again…

  • ALEX80

    Lets start this season pronto, I’ll pay the difference, how much they want???

  • burnt_chicken

    ABA2K! notable rule changes: dunks in traffic worth 3 points, half court bombs worth 4 (cue the Antoine Walker comeback).

  • http://approaching-perfection.com Carrlos Lyles

    aba?

  • Justin

    Good Lord, not again. Actually they should try and start their own league. It will be funny when all the players go bankrupt because they have no clue what it takes to run an organization. Idiots

  • bike

    Hunter is bat-sh*t crazy.
    He is on the hook for being largely responsible for this situation getting to this point.
    Both Hunter and the players should be furious at themselves for failing to present an organized front.
    Let’s see how much ‘high-fiving’ these guys will be doing six months from now. Idiots.

  • robb

    Is that what you’re pursuing “commissioner” Hunter?

  • noneyabiz

    What the players fail to realize is that if all the stars keep migrating to the large markets, eventually the small market teams will disappear, meaning few jobs for NBA players and ultimately hurting the league as a whole. They need to be careful in what they’re doing. I don’t think the league is correct in how they’re going about trying to create competitive balance, however something needs to be done about it.

  • http://www.optimabbc.be Max

    L L Let’s get it on lol.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Fu*king Piece of Sh*t Hunter. That should be his legal name. And I like how he references “Lebron style movement” exactly like I’ve been saying for months as a problem point for the owners.

  • L-Dub20

    This is a damn shame. The main point of these talks was supposed to be getting a better deal for the players now AND in the future. But how much better is it to not have a league at all? Then start their own league? Is this gonna be like charity games where the captains are the owners/players? John Wall’s team will do the dougie after every home victory. Lebron’s squad will shuffle to the finals and fizzle in the 4th qtr? This is just plain retarded. It comes off as pure greed and selfishness. Where are the true ballers who dont NEED millions to play ball. Players have lost their love for the game. Its turned into politics!! SMDH

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    In reality, this is some sort of asinine threat that Hunter dreamed up and threw out to the public to try and “scare” the owners into acting quicker. Just show’s his ignorance on a grander level.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    I still don’t understand how so many people think it’s wrong to want to make as much money as you can if you’re a player, but not if you’re an owner.
    It’s like only some people “deserve” money. This is actually shocking to me. The one thing I thought all Americans agree upon was that EVERYBODY has the right to try to get as much money as possible. I always thought this was like a fundamental American belief. Clearly I missed something.

  • ab40

    LeBron took less money to play in a small market. I don’t see the problem with that. He’s a big kid and the owners should’ve seen it coming. And Billy Hunter must know something because putting up a leauge is hard

  • Sizzle

    Co-sign Eboy. It’s very clear this is just a threat to get out in the media to put pressure on the owners. It’s all games. The thought of a league spontaneously popping up and being successful is ridiculous.

  • http://itsahardwoodlife.blogspot.com omphalos

    Lebron is almost single-handedly responsible for the NBA not being played this season. If he’d gone to any other team except Miami this wouldn’t have been such a violent battle for control. But I’m STILL more pissed off at Billy Hunter, filling the players’ heads with bs and pushing them away from this deal. The season isn’t on life-support? The season is GONE, get that through your skull Billy, decertification is going to take 6 months to resolve, and this is going to f*ck the NBA for the forseeable future with the draft order being all messed up and players losing their edge among other things. If contracts get voided all hell will break loose.

  • http://itsahardwoodlife.blogspot.com omphalos

    @Allenp; they aren’t arguing about the money anymore, they more or less agreed to a 50-50 split, they want to be able to go wherever they want and form superteams to compete with Lebron and force sign and extensions like Melo. It’s the sense of entitlement the players have that they can do whatever they want which gets my goat.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    A large % Of owners own their arena. This is clearly an empty threat. Cosign Eboy

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Who’s paying for the creation of this mystical “league”, Allen, since you are so supportive of the idea that these dudes can do something like this? I’ll wait. You think the players, who are no longer collecting income, are going to pay for it? Private investors, who’d be more apt to invest money into a proven product like….oh, I don’t know, and NBA FRANCHISE! Nah. Let’s just keep caressing these cats egos for making “strong” decisions.

  • fruizm

    why do i keep checking slamonline if there is no NBA???

  • Maniac

    … And these guys are actually being defended. Any moron that allows Hunter to lead them into complete darkness deserves whatever they have coming to them (and that’s not a “better” deal). I just feel sorry for the players who realize what is going on. SMH

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Salty

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    Omphalos
    Here is how I see it. The players have agreed to make less money, take shorter deals, and restrict their movement some. They already have an employer who makes it impossible for them to seek market value for the first seven years of their career. That will change to their entire career under this new deal. This deal, as I’ve said, forces superstars to stay with the teams that draft them or take drastic pay cuts and it forces free agents to stay with their current teams or take drastic pay cuts.
    It removes the ability for NBA players to have multiple suitors offering comparable deals, which of course INCREASES the amount of money they can earn.
    This is America. Regardless of your job, you are supposed to have the right to seek the most money you can possibly make for your services.
    But, what it appears is that if you decide to achieve mastery at a sport, you forfeit that right. It doesn’t matter how much work it takes to attain mastery or maintain it, because you have chosen to play sports, you should forfeit your basic rights under capitalism, and all the legal protections granted to other workers.
    It’s mindboggling to me. Yes, players make lots of money. So do venture capitalists, CEOs, brokers, and many, many other Americans. Nobody tells them that since they make so much money they shouldn’t be interested in getting as much money as possible on their next deal. In fact, we are so shocked when they DON’T seek as much money as possible, that we PRAISE them. Look at how much praise Warren Buffet got for investing in Bank of America, even though in the long run he could stand to triple his investment.
    At a certain level, this is about people not valuing NBA players as workers, while at the same time complaining that they can’t have the unique product players produce.
    If they aren’t important and don’t deserve to be demanding about their pay, why are people so concerned about whether or not they are playing? It just isn’t logical.

  • http://theurbangriot.com The NUPE

    Making their own league sounds crazy, but like the USFL and Arena leagues did, it’s possible (still very unlikely but possible). The biggest differnce would be that the baskeball version could start with the worlds best players rather than players not good enough to make it in the NFL. There are former USFL/Arena owners who would be very interested in owning or wanting part of a team. As well as some former players like Magic who could potentially invest. The biggest impedement is getting over the fear of crossing the NBA. Maybe Magic would not invest in a team – only because he thinks that would hurt his future chances owning an NBA franchise (with the assumption the new league fails after a year or less). As Hunter states finding a network could be difficult too, however, I could see Spike T.V. being willing to aire games since a) this would hit the right demographic and b) they don’t have any NBA games currently, so nothing to ‘fear’. Even MTV2 and some of the ancillary cable stations may be willing. Not that I’m a proponent of a new league nor do I think that there is more than a 5% chance of it happening, but don’t consider it impossible. There are a lot of smart people out there with a lot of money who would love to see this drag on so that they can can make some money.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Nupe, that’s all well and good but name an Arena league player who commands the type of money the “best players in the world” make in the NBA? And yes, the USFL was a great example….2 years of below average football that died the moment Trump got involved. Let’s look at the last league that started on it’s own…the XFL. Oh wait, let’s not. How about that basketball league with the trampolines and sh*t? Maybe they could get a tv deal with Spike too. The best the NBA players could hope for is something similar to the AND1 tour….which as we all know is sh*t basketball.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    Eboy
    I don’t believe they can or will EVER start a new League.
    I just don’t think it’s stupid to broach the subject.
    The reality is that if players were willing to take a pay cut now in exchange for, they could start their own League. Smaller venues, smaller television contracts, smaller salaries, but better talent. Eventually, they would either force the NBA to pay a premium to merge with them or unseat the NBA. It’s not unheard of.
    But the reality also is that most of them would rather just play in the NBA and earn money that way. It’s not that the plan is impossible, it’s that it’s unlikely. Not because of stupidity, but because like most Americans, they’d rather collect a steady check then take a risk and possibly lose some money. I don’t condemn them because I have the same sort of mindset.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    There is no league the players could create where They would make as much money as in the NBA. Let alone begin in a timely enough fashion not to waste a good chunk of guy’s primes. Either way, it isn’t a realistic option. Just get the negotiating done and shut up

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    So…here’s how I understand it. The top NBA players will potentially play for a “renegade” league, making 2-3 million dollars a season as opposed to 15-20 million a season, just to, you know, stick it to the man? Yep. It’s really difficult to criticize their thought process.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    Should be in exchange for equity.
    It’s basically what LeBron does on on every new sponsorship deal he does.
    He lowers his upfront fee in exchange for equity.
    If you start a new league, you get in on the ground floor as an owner and partner.
    I just think it’s unlikely because the NBA is so powerful, and it would require players taking serious pay cuts. But it’s not stupid, its EXACTLY the way almost every other business is begun and becomes profitable.
    Why is this so ludicrous to consider?

  • Maniac

    Eboy yep that’s how it is. The players (and some fans) are allowing emotions to affect their thought process. Like I was saying yesterday, I think most people are just pissed that old ridiculously rich a$$ white guys are calling the shots.

  • http://bit.ly/UniteNBA Christian Waterman

    Get it done!

  • Maniac

    Allenp a new league is “ludicrous” to consider because why make things harder on themselves? Would starting a new league really satisfy all of their problems? To our understanding, not all 450 players are on the same page anyway, so who is to say that they can establish a new league where things can be agreed upon? You honestly think that the middle class players want to start making under a million just because of the stubbornness of the executives of the NBPA? Do you honestly believe that ALL of the superstars want to go that route? I don’t.

  • http://theurbangriot.com The NUPE

    The guranteed money from a stable NBA is better than the ‘maybe’ money from an unstable new league. Even if players were guranteed 75% of revenues, that wouldn’t amount for much in the first years of the league. And eventually the league would run into the same problems as the NBA about how to be competitive, salary caps, as well as issues about where and how to market the league. I don’t see venues or television deals being the difficult part, but running the business development of the league is what would kill it. When you have who’s accepted as the best players in the world in your league, then you have much fewer concerns about the quality of play (unlike And 1, USFL etc.) Many investors are out there, Eboy, you mention one in Donald Trump. But there are also several Russion, Chineese and Turkish billionaries whow would love to get their hands in the pot of money left by the NBA collapse. Also companies like Cerebus who specialize in making investments in things that are currently undervalued and potential to grow (as a new league would). Also, don’t short change a network like Spike or even ignore the possibility of Turner adding a network just for this league, it wasn’t too long ago that FOX was considered a waste of time, but that’s grown too. Again, I still highly doubt any chance of a new league either starting or becoming a success. Only thing I’m saying is that it’s possible with the right people and money being involved.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    Eboy
    You are thinking short term.
    If I create a viable competition to your business by siphoning away the best available talent, what choices do you have?
    I’m sorry people, but clearly y’all don’t know how the NBA became the NBA.
    The ABA was launched as a rival league. It swooped in an offered much larger contracts to bonafide stars with certain types of games.
    Because it kept diluting the star power of the NBA, and played a more exciting brand of basketball, it became a threat. The NBA was more stable, and offered better contracts to more players, but the ABA had STAR POWER and offered big deals to stars.
    What y’all are overlooking is that the NBA is a star driven League. That’s how it markets itself, that’s who come to see.
    If stars decided they wanted to start a rival smaller league, with other non stars who were looking for a pay day, but couldn’t sign in the NBA, that would not be impossible.
    There are several key problems. The first is of course the cost and potential lower salaries overall for players.
    The second is that since stars are under contract with the NBA, if at any point the NBA resumes operations they would have to honor those contracts. So, theoretically, the NBA players who are not stars and who would be taken even larger pay cuts could decide to reform the union, agree to a CBA and then FORCE the stars to disband their league to rejoin the NBA.
    I don’t know if this would work becasue I would assume that if the union decertifies, players will have to agree to rejoin the union. I’m not a lawyer so I don’t know if players would be bound by contracts that were signed prior to the dissolution of the union. Then again, the owners, at least STern, has said that they shouldn’t be bound by those same contracts and should be able to void current deals, so it’s a murky area.
    What you all appear to be saying is that because something is unlikely, it’s stupid.
    I’m agreeing that it’s unlikely, disagreeing that it’s stupid. The reason people start businesses is because that typically allows them more power and more earning potential. If the players ever want to rise above “employees” they have to have an ownership stake. That will never happen with the NBA. The labor deals will just continue to get worse.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    “Why is this so ludicrous to consider?” Why hasn’t it happened before then? Why are there only ONE (1) one of each major sport professional league in North America? Because sponsorship, tv deals, food service, bankrolling is all tied hand and hand and there’s not enough manpower out there with deep enough pockets to make a serious threat. The idea is nice and all, but if it was going to happen, it would have happened when the NBA was at it’s absolute lowest in the 70′s……and let’s not throw this out there for public consumption for those who vilify Stern like he’s Hitler, but without him and his ideas and his ability to see into the future, there may not BE a NBA for all of us to discuss. It could have easily gone away 40 years ago.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    Honestly, this is true for every employee.
    Eboy is a lawyer. Lawyers leave large firms to join smaller firms or start their own firms for a variety of reasons, but two serious ones are the potential for greater earning potential and equity in the future. Lawyers not on the “partner” track laterally move to other firms where they may get on that track, or change their expecations for their careers. No lawyers wants to be an associate forever. They want that big earning potential.
    This is standard operating procedure. This is how venture capitalism works (Where the big money is made). It’s how facebook and yahoo and microsoft were created. It’s what Warren Buffet does for a living.
    Why do so many people think this is stupid? This is how Americans get wealthy. Lol.

  • Yesse

    It would sound great. If they would make any significant progress i’m sure the owners would be pissed.

  • EJ

    Amare and Billy hunter are stupid. Are they even aware that Europe exusts and that there are many pro basketball leagues in America? Just go play there.
    And they would still probably make less money like that, than with the NBA and whatever deal the owners propose. Just get a deal done somewhere. I for one couldn’t care less if billionare owners are richer than millionare players.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    “LeBron movement”?
    Well, there you have it.
    This generation’s transcendant star. He has officially changed the game.
    LONG… LIVE… THE KING!!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Allen, you’re right, but in this case, the NBA pays the highest wage. Potentially, if there was a movement to create a new league, it would take years for it to take and become profitable, or at least profitable to the point where players could basically “print money” with huge deals like they receive from the NBA. AND, who really knows if there are dedicated Superstars to the cause that would rather play for the Omaha Bandits to try and “brand” themselves then making the move to play for the Los Angeles Lakers and live within their tradition.

  • Maniac

    And Allenp I have said numerous times that you have been defending the players well, but there is one thing that you are completely wrong about. You’re correct that it is OK to want more money as a human being… greed is a natural trait. But you have been justifying that greed in the wrong matter. Greed is fine when it is contained, but not to the point where it affects your surroundings. Yes, the players should want more money (who wouldn’t?), but the time has come that they should have realized that either A.) they aren’t getting that money or B.) the money is not worth the chaos that they are creating.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    Actually there are only one of each League because each of the established Leagues “absorbed” the smaller leagues.
    Didn’t y’all read that story last year about the former owners of some team in the ABA whose squad was disbanded because of the ABA/NBA merger and instead of a flat payout, they took a stake in all of the Leagues television deals in perpetuity? And now they make millions of dollars every year to do nothing?
    When most pro Leagues gets absorbed, the Leagues decide which teams continue and which ones are disbanded. People are either paid straight cash, or given “equity.” It’s the same model used in business mergers across the world.
    Y’all are greatly underestimating the power wielded by a unifed group of “superstars.” Who watches the NBA without superstars? If you get a steady group of stars to play in your League, you get the chance to become a threat.
    It’s chancy and unlikely, but it absolutely the ONLY way NBA players will not see themselves eventually end up like the NFL and NHL. That is there future on the current path of negotiations and labor deals. I mean, the writing is on the wall.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    LMFAO @ Philosopher!!!!!

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    In the 70′s teams made money from ticket sales. Ex

  • Name

    Weak threat.

  • Maniac

    Yes LeBron has some responsibility for this. In fact, all these new stars of this generation who have contributed to this Super Friends mess have some responsibility. Why is it OK that they can disrespect and make a mockery of the league and its systems? The owners just want to protect their product. I actually understand Jordan to some extent. He has inferred in the past that he despises some of these new players and how they are handed the world without earning it like the players of the past have.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    Maniac
    You’re arguing that the players are “greedy” for wanting more money but the owners are justified.
    And you don’t see the flaws in that argument.
    All 30 owners are worth more than $100 million. Many of them are billionaires. Jerry Buss is the only one who has his team as his main source of income and he’s worth $300 million.
    Basically, these owners are demanding the right to earn as much money as possible, restrict the rights of their workers to seek better employment and demand that their poor business decision be offset by employee sacrifices. And you think that’s justiifed.
    I’ve said many, MANY times that both owners and players are looking out for their self interest. That’s what business people do. My argument has consistently been that people who think the players should just “give in” or “stop being greedy” or absolving owners of their greed, mainly because they believe the owners HAVE A RIGHT TO BE GREEDY.
    And I’m trying to get people to ask themselves why they truly believe that. Why do they believe that players are wrong to seek the best pay and working conditions, but owners are justified in doing the exact same thing. This is illogical. Both groups are justified. How you align yourself depends on which group you want to see succeed for whatever reasons you have.
    But trying to define one group as the moral superior of the other is ridiculous. Trying to claim one group is “justified” is ludicrous. That is the sign of an inborn bias against players, and people need to examine why they feel that way, in my opinion.
    This is about rich people, on both sides, trying to get the best deal. That’s it. Nobody owes fans their entertainment. It’s just entertainment. It’s not even essential to your lives!

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    If the ABA did and was able to force the NBA to merge, why can’t the players and a group of smart investors do the same? You have to remember that the ABA was started up as an alternative (competition) to the NBA by a group of businessmen. They were able to grab great/notable players like Rick Barry, Dr.J, Artis Gilmore, The Iceman, Spencer Haywood, Billy Cunningham, Moses Malone, David Thompson, Hubie Brown and Larry Brown. The ABA was very popular in the 70s due to it’s up and down style and highlight reel plays while the NBA lagged behind. The NBA wouldn’t be the league it is today without the ABA-NBA merger and if today’s stars can come up with a viable league, they can force the NBA to merge with them or maybe just maybe, get rid of them for good. The NBA is built around legendary players and when those guys are gone, it loses it’s mystique and ability to attract a huge fanbase.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    In the 70′s teams made money from ticket sales. Expenses were minimal. One NBA franchise, like the Bulls
    For instance, is worth more money than a whole new league would be. With global branding. The only way to get a semblance of a competitive viable basketball situation would be to start clubs. That way the seasons aren’t long drawn out, unexciting prOcesses. If a new league could mimic playoff like atmospheres then maybe they could make a dent in the basketball market. But that would require a pretty big sacrifice from the star players. One that I don’t at all think they would be willing to make.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    Maniac
    How did Lebron or Carmelo make a mockery of the League and its systems?
    Where are your facts on that?
    LeBron signed with Miami as a free agent. In order to maximize his dollars and get Cleveland something in the deal, he allowed them to do a sign and trade.
    Same thing with Melo, except he did a straight trade.
    Both of them honored their contracts, nobody has ever disputed that. In fact Lebron increased the value of the Cavs by like $100 million by doing his job. When his employment contract ended, he sought a new employer, as is HIS RIGHT.
    Melo was set to see his employment contract expire and was going to seek another employer, as is HIS RIGHT.
    Teams cut players every single season. They cut them without apology or hard feelings. They trade them the same way.
    Exactly why do you believe this is ok for teams, but not okay for players. This is part of a larger mindset about who should be in control and who should just follow orders.

  • T-Money

    i still don’t see what needs to be fixed with the system. lebron, bosh, melo, cp3, dwight all played/will play at least 7 years with their team before jumping ship. i mean… if you’re trying to prevent guys from changing teams after 7 freaking years, might as well take out free agency altogether. i’m still not sure why people say that the miami guys “gamed” the system. they signed an extension, fulfilled their contractual obligations and then declined to re-sign with their team. what’s the problem with that? and even for melo, he wanted to be traded to the knicks but he couldn’t force denver to do it. they could have taken the offer from new jersey. what’s the solution? force melo to sign a 2nd extension with denver?

  • SesameBaller

    Hunter has gone mad! Go, get World Wide Wes!

  • bike

    If I am a mid-tier player hearing this, I would want to kill Hunter. The amount of money they are quibbling over right now is completely insignificant to the amount of money they will lose in the long run if they try to pursue a lawsuit that will kill the NBA. Is Hunter that stupid to think there will be a kinder and more gentle management to run a league than these mean and nasty bullies calling the shots now?
    Hunter and the players invited this bullying by the owners. Stern and the owners fully recognize that this trade association is dysfunctional and wide open to manipulation. The owners have to be laughing their a*s off at this.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Okay, what if all the major stars in the NBA decided to band together and start their own league (not matter how small or unprofitable it is), what happens to the NBA? Do you think those same endorsers and fans will stick around to watch role players? NO! So let’s stop acting like these guys will starve without the NBA. The NBA’s brand is it’s star players, not the Logo, not David Stern, not teams like the Lakers or Bulls, not the Owners, it’s the freaking players. Why is this so hard for people to understand.

  • http://wikipedia.org Eddie1

    Illuminati.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    Michael Jordan is a base hypocrite.
    He “earned” his popularity? Clearly, you don’t know how many old heads despised JOrdan as being an overhyped, flashy, overmarketed, overpaid bastard when he first got in the League.
    Dude is the greatest in many people’s minds, but that was not always the case. You know how many older players envied his salary and envied the endorsement deals he was getting?
    If Jordan said that about the players in any sort of financial sense, he’s even worse of a hypocrite than I thought.
    And what exactly haven’t players had to earn? Nobody is giving away championships in the NBA. Kobe and LeBron are the two most debated and criticized athletes on the planet. Michael Jordan is fortunate his career didn’t play out in today’s media circus.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    I said this a long time ago.
    Fans want certain people making decisions. They want certain people making money.
    And it’s not the people they come to see play. Which is really, really strange.
    I can’t believe anybody still believes LeBron gamed the system. Yes, his television special as crass, and so was the premature party. But that’s it.
    He signed a contract, took his team to the playoffs regularly, to the Finals once and won two MVPs. And then he left. Exactly what did he do to game the system?
    Clearly, plenty of fans wish the “reserve clause” was still in effect. And the funny thing is that if it was, you would still have the same lack of parity because the teams with the superior talent scouting and general managers would still make the best decisions, and there would be no chance to get free agents. You would be stuck with only trades and drafting.

  • http://www.boogiewilliams.com Boing Dynasty

    Greed is like farts, your own is cool, but everybody else is disgusting.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    Allenp:
    Fans are conditioned, arguably, to “want” certain people to get the money.
    If you get my drift.
    I know you’re getting my drift.

  • http://nasteedunx.blogspot.com Nasteedunx

    In America, people have the right to seek as much money as they possibly can…

    In America, people have the right to try and keep as much money as they possibly can…

    Aye, there’s the rub…

  • Maniac

    Allenp
    I am certainly not saying that one side is being greedy and the other isn’t. I already said that both sides are being greedy. My point is not that the owners have the “right” to be greedy, but that they have the leverage. The players are fighting a losing battle and only prolonging the inevitable. You should not gamble with what you can’t afford and that is exactly what the players are doing. The owners know for certain that they don’t NEED the NBA to live the rest of their lives. I am not stating that the players do either, though they all prefer NBA money to regular jobs that they will be forced to get if they do not go overseas. No side is completely right. The owners just have the $$$ to back it up and the players don’t. It’s simple. Why keep fighting when you know that you’ll probably end up back to square 1… or even worse. Pride is not worth it. Principles have their limits and can only go so far.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Maniac, people said the same thing about baseball players in 1992. They didn’t have leverage so why not just sign the deal? Well because they do have leverage, the owners can’t lose a 400+Million dollar company, no matter how rich they are. And if the players are united than the ones losing the most money as individuals is the owners. Players canto play basketball for a smaller living somewhere else, especially the stars, the owners can’t just transfer te basketball team they own to another country, or pick up replacement players and expect to make anything. Both sides need each other.

  • Maniac

    I have no problem with LeBron going to Miami and I have no problem with Melo wanting to go to New York. LeBron is not the first superstar to sign with another team (though no one has done it in the matter he did) and Melo isn’t the first to force a trade. It goes beyond that. The fact is, these players have disrespected the league by indirectly taunting it with their “power”. I am not siding with the owners on this matter, but as a fan, I find it disgusting that these new age players lack the fiery competition of the past players. I am pointing the finger at decency of the players. Why is it good for basketball that all the superstars team up? The owners are trying to prevent that.

  • wth23

    Stephen a says deal will be signed in 2 weeks,doubt it. Players made a big mistake breaking up the union thinking stern would run back to negotiate one last time. I think stern/owners too prideful for that even though they prob should. Today last year Blake was going against Love and we were all debating on who would have more rebounds…this sucks!

  • Maniac

    AllenP
    You misunderstood what I meant about Jordan. If you know anything about me, you would know that I hate the attention that MJ receives. I will be the first to tell you that he is overrated (in the sense that most people believe he is “untouchable” in the GOAT argument). My point is that he still earned his way to greatness. Kobe had to earn his way to where he is now (some people still don’t give him enough credit). LeBron came out of high school and people already wanted to give him that title and all the glory when he STILL hasn’t lived up to all of his hype. Players of the past hate that just as the older players dislike the attention Jordan gets. These new guys think they can run rampage over the league and it shouldn’t be that way.

  • Maniac

    nbk
    You are exactly right. Both sides do need each other. I’ve been trying to get at that. No side needs the other more though. This is why I am not 100% pro-owner. I believe the owners are very close to crossing the line if they haven’t already. I’ll actually go as far as saying that we are still in the lockout because the owners are being too stiff. I just think that the players pride and ignorance is getting in the way of them accepting the deal. I’ve already said that no side is completely right.

  • Innis B

    Never happen.

  • http://nbasobrietystrike.blogspot.com/ CoolWhip

    It’s actually not difficult to start your own league. The difficult party is organizing a profitable league with high revenue. Uggghhh, he’s just saying this to sensationalize. Although, I do believe we might be looking at the death of the NBA.
    As always, see my site and add me to twitter.

  • P.barr

    Pls fire this dude

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    Maniac
    If you’ve read my posts on this topic I’ve always said several things.
    1. The players were always doomed to lose.
    2. The owners have most of the leverage.
    3. This deal will set the tone for all future deals.
    To me, given these realities, the players have to compromise to make a deal, but cannot compromise so much that they will be hamstrung in the future.
    They have gone from 57 percent of BRI to 50. That is $280 million. They have shortened the MLE contracts and reduced their amounts. Eliminated exceptions. Lessened certain free agency freedoms.
    But, they HAVE to draw a line in the sand. If they give owners everything they want just to save the season, a season owners imperiled, what do you think happens in 7 years when it’s time to renegotiate.
    I mean, didn’t we just see the NFL, the League where hte owners have the best salary structure and the most rights in any sport lock its players out to get even more concessions? Do people think NBA owners are going to be more generous moving forward or less generous? If you know you’re going to lose, you need to determine how you’re going to lose and what you’re going to be able to do in the future. That’s it.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    LeBron was better than Kobe as a rookie fresh out of high school.
    He average 18, 5, 5 straight out of high school. And he was playing point guard.
    People hyped LeBron because he was a certified beast, and hype pays bills.
    Comparing LeBron to Kobe as a high school player is ridiculous. LeBron was on a completely different level. Of course he had more hype. He might have been the best high school player since Wilt!

  • wth23

    Hunter sold the players on the disclaimer by telling them it was a faster process then decertication and that it would get Stern to negotiate in a faster manner. Woj said the players left that meeting never truly believing they would lose the whole season. Problem is the players trust hunter too much and believe everything he says. Hunter will continue to get paid his 2.5 mill, Stern will likely not come back to the table, and the season will be lost.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    The chances of the season being completely lost are still pretty slim (imo). The owners do not want this to get sorted out in court, not at all. And neither do the players. It benefits everyone to have a season, This is a big game of chicken.

  • Roberto

    LeBron in new league = new “He Hate Me”

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    Maniac
    You’re saying LeBron did nothing wrong, then saying it was indecent. That doesn’t make sense.
    You think Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Byron Scott and Michael Cooper all ended up on the same team by accident?
    Or Oscar and Kareem?
    Or Bird, Parish and McHale?
    Or Shaq and Kobe?
    Or Jordan, Pippen, and Grant? Or even Rodman?
    Do you think it makes a difference if players are drafted to play together because they didn’t make that “choice”? You think that it’s ok for superstars to team up as long as someone else teams them up?
    Nobody flaunted anything. LeBron was looking to sign, and figured out where. Melo didn’t “force” a trade, he just told Denver he wasn’t resigning there and he wasn’t resigning in New Jersey. He didn’t flaunt his power anymore than a team flaunts its power by refusing to draft a certain player, or pay a certain free agent what he demands.
    Nobody made fun of the League, they just refused to be controlled. This, in my opinion, is a good thing. Why shouldn’t they decide to play with who they like? Why shouldn’t they decide to take LESS money for other benefits?
    If LeBron went to Chicago, wouldn’t he have been teaming up too? If Bosh and Wade played together in Miami, they would have been teaming up as well, right?
    People aren’t making sense.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    And I have said from the jump that each side will lose some and win some. That’s negotiation.
    I want you to take an honest look at the last CBA and tell me exactly what owners have lost?
    Just name one thing.
    They have “conceded” to not installing a hard cap, not rolling back existing contracts and not reducing the player’s percentage of BRI by 20 percentage points.
    If you think those are concessions, I feel sorry for you the next time you buy a car.

  • wth23

    I found it very telling that hunter only wanted younger guys as players reps. He hated the fact that Battier challenged him over summer asking if he would take a pay cut if season didnt start. He hates that Kobe and his agent want him out once this is over, and he didnt like Pierce rallying people for decertification. When you see these young guys tweets and them laughing during the press conferences its because they truly believe they are going to win and its because they soak up every word hunter says. Hunter and Kessler have been manipulating these youngters from the beginning

  • Dope(Georgia Boy)

    @AllenP Kobe Broke Wilt Chamberlain’s High School Record In The State Of
    pennsylvania

    Go back and do some research before You Make asinine comments

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    So I guess Moses Malone lacked “competitive fire” because he left the Rockets and signed with Hou or that Shaq wasn’t a competitor because he left Orl for LA. I don’t understand how choosing the team that gives you the best chance to win a chip is seen as a lack of competitive drive. Isn’t the desire to win one of the traits of being a great competitor.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    Kobe averaged 8 points as rookie.
    LeBron averaged 21, 6 and 5.
    Fresh out of high school, he did the same thing that people were d*ck riding Tyreke for doing.
    There is absolutely no comparison between Kobe and Lebron when they entered the League. Kobe didn’t even break 20 points per game until his third or fourth season.
    LeBron put up 27 a game in year too, with insane assist and rebound numbers.
    I’m not a LeBron fan, and I’m not arguing about who is the better player overall. I’m pointing out that when they both came into the League out of high school, LeBron was more hyped becasue he was infinitely better. Period.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Is Karl Malone better than Michael Jordan Dope(Georgia Boy)? He scored more career points. Maybe think before you make asinine comments.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    Oh, my bad, I forgot about Moses Malone coming out of high school. He was better than Bron.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    WTH23
    The players elect their own player reps. Hunter doesn’t decide it, their teammates do. And most of them don’t want to go to the meetings, so they get a young cat to do it.

  • Chris6

    I see a lot of resemblance between hunter and the greek prime minister..every move he makes is even more stupid and leads his people to bad choices.shaq could do better..give the fans the game we love back!!!!

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    Honestly, people were speculating that LeBron could go pro as a junior in high school and still have an impact.
    Don’t y’all remember this at all?

  • Roberto

    @AllenP

    How are you comparing superstar players picking and choosing where they want to go at almost any price people are willing to pay for them against unproven college players (nomatter how dominant they are in college or high school and considered “sure things”, we have seen plenty of occasions where they turn out to be busts or less than everyone thought they should be) who are drafted by a team who for the most part did not do well the previous season and in the case of teams like the Clippers and Wolves bad for a while?

  • wth23

    Allen p Lebron had better stats but we will never know what kobe was capable of putting up because Del Harris didnt like to play rookies and thought kobe had to mature. When kobe was given a good amount of time to play on those televised games he tore it up.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    LeBron was clearly a better basketball player out of HS then Kobe. This is not arguable. At all.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    Roberto
    I don’t understand your question.
    If you’re a rookie and you come out of college, the fact that you have to go into a draft and be told exactly how much you will be paid is a restriction on your free market rights.
    While it may benefit owners, it’s still a restriction. When doctors and investment bankers leave school, nobody tells them which firms they must work for, or where they have to live.
    Now, I know some of you will say “Well their salaries aren’t guaranteed” and that’s true. But the salaries are only guaranteed because owners agree to those terms.
    When the free market system is in play, you have NBA owners bidding against each other to avoid losing the next big thing. Each of them offers the best deal they are comfortable offering and the player selects it. A guaranteed contract is similar to a severance package. When the chairman of a company leaves his post with a great severance package it’s because he had the leverage to negotiate it. The NBA and other Leagues want to remove the possibility of certain deals because they know that if that happens, they won’t have to worry about some other owner sweetening their deal and securing a coveted free agent.
    They are artificially placing limits on how players can bargain because they understand that in a free market system, when workers have competition for their services, they can secure better deals.
    I don’t understand why so many of you would want this in your profession, but think that it should be denied to other people. That is more than a tad hypocritical.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    LeBron was the best high school basketball player since Lew Alcindor.
    Come on, now.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    Man, Moses Malone averaged 19 and 15 on 57 percent shooting. That’s amazing. That’s what Kevin Love put up this year.
    I know he was a center, but he was also undersized.
    I can’t say for certain LeBron was better than that coming out of high school straight to the NBA.

  • Mburb321

    Lebron > Kobe coming out of high school and its not even close. I think its more of physical advantage then skill advantage though. Jerry West said kobe wasnt raw he had everything but he looked like he weighed 150 lbs dude was scrawny.

  • Roberto

    @Allen P Unless I am mistaken, in which that point I apologize and retract my statement, in your last post you you compare what LeBron, Bosh and Wade did to the like of Kareem, Magic, Worthy, Cooper…etc etc. Those scenarios are different. Most of the people you named were all drafted by the teams they played for
    Lakers: Magic, Worthy, Byron Scott(draft day trade), Michael Cooper
    Bucks: Kareem
    Celtics: Bird, McHale
    Lakers: Kobe
    Bulls: Jordan, Pippen(draft day trade), Grant

    They didn’t just jump ship to all become a great team, they built it up together and that took several years.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Senior year stats:

    Lebron James- 31.6 points, 9.6 rebounds, 4.6 assists, 3.4 steals

    Kobe Bryant- 30.8 points, 12 rebounds, 6.5 assists, 4.0 steals

    Kevin Garnett- 25.2 points, 17.9 rebounds, 6.7 assists, 6.5 blocks

    Dwight Howard- 25 points, 18 rebounds, 3.5 assists, 8 blocks

    Amare Stoudemire- 29.1 points, 15 rebounds, 6.1 blocks

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    LeBron James was traveling around the country playing the best teams and players available. Kobe was playing in Philadelphia.

  • http://www.offthebackboard.wordpress.com OTB

    lol @ people comparing Kobe/Lebron straight of HS. One was handed the keys to the franchise from the day he got drafted. The second hand his minutes yanked around, and came off the bench. Kobe played an average of 15 mpg in his rookie year, and even that was mostly in the second half, since Harris often let him play for limited minutes. Like I said earlier, Kobe has had a much more difficult path to superstardom than Lebron has. They both had talent, but when Kobe was coming out of HS, it was still very rare for HS guards to leap to the NBA, which is part of the reason why he caught so much flak. And Bryant, like someone mentioned, broke Chamberlain’s scoring record in the State of PA, while averaging 30.8 points, 12 rebounds, 6.5 assists, 4.0 steals in his senior season, which is actually better than Lebron’s 31.6 points, 9.6 rebounds, 4.6 assists, 3.4 steals.

  • http://www.offthebackboard.wordpress.com OTB

    *second half of the season, since Harris often only let him play for limited minutes

  • robb

    Kobe wasn’t making those numbers because Del Harris didnt allow him to play more. In highschool Lebron looked better because of his superior athletic abilities. When you are that kind of an athlete youll look like Superman,, but Kobe was is and always will be miles ahead of Lebron skill wise.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Who compares High School stats?

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    Roberto
    I was comparing the creation of a team.
    All those teams featured superstars “teaming up.”
    The problem most people have isn’t with “teaming up” it’s with who does the teaming.
    If GMs do the teaming, it’s ok. If players do it, it’s not.
    Nobody handed LeBron and Wade and Bosh a championship. They have to play every game, and last year they lost the most important ones.
    You don’t win automatically because you assemble the best talent but the goal of EVERY serious NBA team is to assemble the best talent.
    Why does it matter who does the assembling? Why is it a sign of a failure in the system if players decide they are willing to take slightly less money to play together because they believe that’s a smart way to contend?
    I’m not arguing the point about whether you think LeBron took an “easier” path by joining Miami. OF COURSE HE DID! What I am questioning is the idea that by making that choice he made a decision that is somehow bad for the NBA. He did the same thing every general manager was trying to do including his own.

  • http://www.offthebackboard.wordpress.com OTB

    Though I will say that Lebron had greater team success, winning 3 of 4 State titles, compared to Kobe’s 1.

  • Mburb321

    There are those stories of Kobe destroying Michael Cooper when the Lakers were scouting him and him killing stackhouse at unc while still in HS. But kobe wasnt ready for team ball his rookie year, he would of prob shot everytime he touched the ball thats why del harris had to rein him in.

  • bull22

    iam tired of this lockout, but billy hunter, anhahahahhahahahahhahahhahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahaahhaahaha thanks for the laugh you insane clown!

  • http://www.offthebackboard.wordpress.com OTB

    @JTaylor – Maybe consider reading the discussion to understand why 2 separate posters felt the need to do so.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    Why are you comparing their stats from high school instead of their stats playing against grown men in the NBA?
    Is the argument about who was the more dominant high school player, or who was the best high school player to come straight to the NBA?
    I see that my earlier comment about Wilt through things off. I don’t know if LeBron is the best high school player ever, but as far as a high school player to jump to the NBA, he’s better than Kobe.
    Sorry for any confusion I caused.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Dajuan Wagner avg. 42.5ppg in HS, so….that must mean he’s better than all those guys.

  • http://www.offthebackboard.wordpress.com OTB

    @AllenP – Because you’re completely ignoring the fact that Kobe played 15 minutes per game, and didn’t play 30+ minutes till his THIRD year in the league. Meanwhile, Lebron averaged almost 40 minutes a game as a rookie. Gee, I wonder why he had better stats?

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    LeBron was better in HS. Their stats tell you next to nothing about how “good” they were. Lawrence Westbrook who played at Minnesota averaged 42PPG his Junior Year in Phoenix. Jerryd Bayless averaged 36, Y’all want to compare their HS stats to Kobe & LeBron and act like that makes a difference?

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    If Kobe was as good at NBA basketball as LeBron his rookie year, he would have played more then 15 minutes a game. It is beyond stupid to argue for a guy who was stuck on the bench as better than a rookie of the year who did something only 4 players have done in history. Beyond Stupid.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Moses is the best straight out of HS rookie. The guy avg. 19/15 and 22/17 in the playoffs as a 19yr old while Bron didn’t even make the playoffs until his 3rd season.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Ya’ll crack me up.

  • http://www.offthebackboard.wordpress.com OTB

    Only guys like Wagner, Bayless, and Westbrook are irrelevant to the discussion because we’re comparing whether Lebron and Kobe were better in High School (and by extension, when they arrived to the league). I actually agree with AllenP that Lebron would still have posted better numbers than Kobe had the minutes been even because Kobe was quite erratic as a rookie. The only reason I’m even arguing right now is because people are acting as if Bryant played the same amount of minutes as Lebron and that it is actually a fair discussion to compare their contributions. Kobe was not a bum coming out of high school – he was a highly touted talent (much like Lebron) and had the choice of any university he wanted. Additionally, he had enough talent to beat guys like Jerry Stackhouse and Michael Cooper during one-on-one runs as a 17 year old. If he had been drafted by the Nets rather than the loaded Lakers, his minutes would have been much higher, and as a result, so would have his stats.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    *threw

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    In Kobe Bryants 4th season (2nd as a starter) he averaged 22, 6.3, & 4.9 — LeBron’s Rookie Averages were 20.9 5.5 & 5.9 – I can’t believe I wasted time looking that up, who was better is obvious if you have a brain & don’t enjoy thinking about Kobe Bryant’s ballsack

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    LeBron played more minutes because he was better than every player in front of him. Kobe wasn’t better than Eddie Jones, so he didn’t play.
    Hell, this conversation jumped off because Maniac said LeBron was mroe hyped than players like Kobe who earned it.
    I remember Kobe being voted as a starter in the All-star game despite coming off the bench for his own squad and averagint 15 points per game.
    If that ain’t hype, I don’t know what is.

  • http://www.offthebackboard.wordpress.com OTB

    And nbk – Harris wanted to reign in Kobe. He never even got a chance to shine. It was a completely different situation. Lebron was drafted by a lottery team in the crapper, which handed him the keys to the franchise and 40 minutes per game by a coach who had no pressure. Kobe was drafted by a team that had ALL STARS at the guard position and were lead by a coach who was under pressure to win the NBA championship. Given that context, of course a HS rookie is going to be relegated to the bench to start off the season. It is a testament to Kobe’s skill that Jerry West was willing to trade two proven All-Stars (Jones and Van Exel) to speed up his development.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    No sh*t Kobe wasn’t a bum coming out of HS, nobody said that, or insinuated it. He is the first guard in history to come out of HS straight to the NBA. The First. He just wasn’t better than LeBron James, who had a man body, NBA ready game (he could fit with a team concept, unlike Kobe at that age), and had spent his whole HS career in the limelight, traveling to games, being interviewed by the media, basically being conditioned to be a successful pro. It’s only logical to assume a person with those advantages will be a better player out of the gate.

  • http://www.offthebackboard.wordpress.com OTB

    Again, Lebron didn’t have Shaquille Oneal to defer to in his first 4 seasons out of the league. He had his hands on the ball all the time – why wouldn’t his stats be better?

  • http://slamonline Brion

    If they start a new league maybe Seattle can get a team again. (I can dream).

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Eddie Jones was traded after Kobe had already proven he was going to be a really good player. They started next to each other for the first few weeks of the 98-99 season. And the Eddie Jones trade brought in an All-Star, they didn’t just get rid of one. They got back Glenn Rice.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    His stats might have been better.
    But would he have averaged 21, 6 and 5 while playing the point guard?
    Come on now people.
    I ignored the minutes because the minutes were proof he couldn’t beat out the cats in front of him. Besides, by year three he was getting 38 minutes a game and still wasn’t matching LeBron’s stats from LeBron’s rookie year. Well outside of shooting percentage.
    Lebron was better, but it was also because he prepared to go pro straight from school because it was more accepted then. I’m not acting like LeBron was just magically better, just pointing out that he was.

  • http://www.offthebackboard.wordpress.com OTB

    I’m not arguing who was better or who wasn’t. Statistically, Lebron is obviously ahead, but you guys are ignoring the context of the situation. Its easy to point to stats without considering the situation of the two franchises that drafted them and the teammates that they had to defer to. In Lebron’s case, he was surrounded by role players who were made aware that he was the “King” and that it was his team. In Kobe’s case, he was surrounded by proven All-Stars (whom he had to beat out to become a starter), and a future HOF center still not in his prime. Think Lebron would have averaged the same if he had Shaq, Eddie Jones, and Nick Van Exel on his team to defer to? I highly doubt it.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    The Lakers weren’t winning any chips with Del Freaking Harris as a coach and Nick Van Exel/Eddie Jones in their backcourt. Kobe was a backup to Eddie Jones because he wasn’t good enough to play 35+ mins a night, end of story.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    I have no idea who the better HS player was. No idea. Neither do you guys. LbJ was definitely more hyped. He had a stage set for him. ESPN said he was “The One” so ya he was the “bigger” HS star, but as to who was better? Nobody can make a informed decision. I just tossed the stats out there for fodder. JTaylor takes it as “better stats = better player.” It’s obviously not. Especially in HS. I averaged 21 and 11…. I played in the B league. It means nothing what their stats are. On any level stats don’t mean a whole lot. To say one was obviously the better player is silly. They didn’t go head to head or play in the same era or play against the same teams. Feel free to keep acting like your opinions are facts though gents. So, serious question, which no one will answer honestly. Kobe is drafted to the Cavs. Is he getting 15 mins per game off the bench or averaging 20 and 4 and 4 or so? Be real now boys. LbJ was the better rookie obviously. Better player? Highly arguable.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    LeBron James Stats have ALWAYS BEEN BETTER. Every season, compare them at the same age. Kobe Bryant’s best season statistically (06) is the only year (age) when you can say he was/will-be (LeBron isn’t 27 yet) “more” productive then LeBron. And that is subjective.

  • http://www.offthebackboard.wordpress.com OTB

    My beef with the arguments presented by you guys is centered around ignoring the context of the situation and acting like Lebron was miles ahead, not who was actually better as a player. I even admitted earlier that Kobe was erratic as a rookie, and it really did take him till year 3 to start finding himself. Lebron was more prepared for the pros, yes, but Kobe’s development would also have been sped up had he been allowed to take control of the team as a rookie and averaged 40 mpg with no one else to defer to.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    I’m not ignoring the context.
    I believe LeBron was better because he was preparing to go pro his entire four years in high school and was a physical freak of nature.
    It’s not a knock on Kobe to say LeBron was better. LeBron was following in Kobe’s footsteps.
    But he was better, and that’s why he was more hyped.
    This whole discussion jumped off because of a complaint that LeBron got too much “handed to him.”
    Dude averaged 21,6 and 5 as a rookie, 27, 7 and 6 in his second year and 31, 7 and 6 in his third year while finishing in the top five in MVP voting. He’s been over 70 games played every season. He took the least talented team of all time to the Finals.
    What the hell didn’t he earn? Lol. I don’t even like LeBron like that and y’all got me arguing over him.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    SO what your saying OTB is that LeBron wouldn’t have started for those Lakers? lol. come on. Kobe was so damn selfish as a young NBA player, fitting him productively in a system with Shaq as an 18 year old was not happening. If it were, he would have got minutes. The best players play. Its how teams in the NBA win. I’m pretty sure

  • http://www.offthebackboard.wordpress.com OTB

    Again, its easy to point out stats and ignore the context. Lebron has never had a behemoth 7’1 center in the prime of his career to defer to. Even then, Kobe was able to average ridiculous 30,6,6 averages (like in 2003) while still making sure Shaq got his. They also have different playing styles. Kobe is a scorer, while James is a facilitator. Stats aren’t everything, its important to take into account the context of the stats you’re spewing.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    Lakeshow
    The argument was about who was the better rookie. My original comment was
    Allenp Posted: Nov.17 at 1:35 pm
    LeBron was better than Kobe as a rookie fresh out of high school.
    He average 18, 5, 5 straight out of high school. And he was playing point guard.
    People hyped LeBron because he was a certified beast, and hype pays bills.
    Comparing LeBron to Kobe as a high school player is ridiculous. LeBron was on a completely different level. Of course he had more hype. He might have been the best high school player since Wilt!

    There are errors, but the gist is easy to understand.

  • http://www.offthebackboard.wordpress.com OTB

    My last comment was to NBK’s post that Lebron’s stats have always been better.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    I don’t know what Kobe would have done as a rookie. But penciling him in at 20,4,4 is a big leap.
    He had a totally different body type from LeBron. And game.

  • http://www.offthebackboard.wordpress.com OTB

    @nbk – I don’t know if he would have or not. All I know is that in 1996, HS rookies weren’t looked at too favorably, and definitely not enough to start over proven All-Star players. Lebron got the trust he did from management because of the success that GMs saw from the Kobe/Garnett/McGrady trio.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    I think it’s ridiculous that Kobe has never exceeded 47 percent from the field despite playing next to a behemoth.
    Everybody acts like having a great center means you can’t put up points or something.
    That’s crazy. Ask all the old head NBA players who had great centers. They got way better looks with better players around them.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    I am not ignoring the context. If Kobe was a better NBA player as a rookie he would have played more. I am showing you stats because of this comment “OTB Posted: Nov.17 at 3:09 pm
    Again, Lebron didn’t have Shaquille Oneal to defer to in his first 4 seasons out of the league. He had his hands on the ball all the time – why wouldn’t his stats be better?” – His stats have always, and will always be better. His stats aren’t why he was better then Kobe as a rookie. His style of play, body, and maturity are. His stats just prove that point.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    I could care less about Bron having superior stats. Go look at where he was ranked in HS, how he was compared to KAJ (as the greatest HS player of all-time), the way he led his an average team (talent wise) to wins over traditional HS powers like Oak Hill and how he the unanimous #1 overall selection in a draft that included two college cats coming off dominant NCAA tournament runs (Wade/Melo). I don’t know how anyone can sit there and argue who was the better HS talent/player between Kobe and Bron (well, expect for the #1 Kobe ball-juggler this side of the Mississippi).

  • http://www.offthebackboard.wordpress.com OTB

    @JTaylor – Its easy to say that in hindsight, but Eddie Jones and Van Exel were great players. Shaq was in his prime, and the Lakers won 61 games in 1997-1998 while being led by Harris. They were championship contenders.

  • T-Money

    Kobe’s body wasn’t ready to play 40 minutes a night in his rookie and, quite simply, Eddie Jones was a better 2-gaurd than him at that point. Bron was born ready.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    LeBron got what he got because he deserved it at the time. Some people mature earlier than others. Kobe’s 3rd year in the league, that is the year he was physically & mentally comparable to LeBron as a rookie. Just like my Sophomore Year of HS was the year I was physically caught up to my friends that were further along as freshman. It’s not a slight towards anyone, its just the way the way people mature. Which is At different rates.

  • Nilescio

    I wonder how many people who are posting actually read the offer the owners made to the players. At first I was on the owners side, but once I read the offer I changed my mind. What a lot of people forget is that over the years a lot of changes have been made allready, for example does anybody remember the big contracts rookies got before the `rookie contracts` were agreed in the CBA. Glenn Robinson, Jimmy Jackson both held out before they got what they wanted. Glenn Robinson got 68 million as a rookie. But this generation is being portrayed as greedy. What do they get now?? I believe the MVP of this past season was still playing on his rookie contract. I wasnt happy with Lebron Leaving, but it was his right to do so. And in the end it hurt him more than he figured.
    Furthermore if the owners think the system is broke then who is being a hypocrite? for a contract to kick in both sides have to agree….. Dont offer such big contracts so…
    AllenP great posts

  • http://www.offthebackboard.wordpress.com OTB

    I agree with the maturity argument. Hell, I’d even argue that Kobe truly didn’t mature enough to completely accept the team concept until the 2001 playoffs.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    “Eddie Jones and Van Exel were great players”? WTF.

  • Mburb321

    Jtaylor yes lebron was better rookie then kobe but dont say eddie jones was better then kobe!. Rookie Kobe put up 30 something against Pippen, eddie jones never could of done that. Del harris thought kobe was too immature that why he didnt start.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Eddie Jones was better then Kobe for Kobe’s first 2 seasons. Jones was an elite defender. Elite. And he put up what 17PPG?

  • http://www.offthebackboard.wordpress.com OTB

    @JTaylor – Are you serious? Eddie was an above average defender, and was an All-Star even after he left the Lakers. I’m not saying either of them were franchise players, but they were pretty good players. Let’s not act as if the 1998 Lakers had Kwame Brown and Smush Parker here – that team was stacked.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    I concede. LbJ was the better HS player. Not sure by how large a margin though. Better rookie also. It’s just hard to judge them at face value. Different scenarios altogether. It’s a stretch to say LbJ had a “average” team in HS. They were real real good HS players. It was KB’s brain holding him back. He was/is a bit of a head-case.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    His brain and the fact that he had never engaged in serious weight lifting.
    Eddie JOnes and Nick Van Exex were very good. Great is a stretch, but very, very good.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    I’m sorry but making an all-star team doesn’t automatically mean you are/were a great player, sorry. If that’s the case, DGranger, JJohnson, BRoy, CKaman, Devin Harris, JNelson and Rashard Lewis were all great players at some point in their careers. This has to be a joke, right?

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    I love how Lakeshow said “JTaylor thinks better stats=better stats” yet he was the same genius that stat there comparing HS stats. No one brought up HS stats until Mr. Die for Kobe’s Honor decided to. Also, how does being a better rookie not make you the better player?

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    *= better player*

  • bike

    I am going to write a book titled “The NBA Lockout and the Effect it has had on SLAM commentators”

  • http://www.offthebackboard.wordpress.com OTB

    By “great” I wasn’t implying that they were Michael Jordan reincarnated, just that they were good enough to make multiple All-Star selections (at least on Eddie’s part) and be considered very good at their positions. I think you’re severely underrating how good a team must be in order to win 56 and 61 games. Moreover, your argument was that there is no way the Lakers could have won the championship in those years. They lost in the second round in 1997 to the team that eventually made it to the Finals, and lost again in the WCF to, obviously, the team that went to the Finals.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Damn, I can’t believe that Johnny Jolly (GB DL) just got 6yrs in prison for a pint of syrup. “freedom and justice for all”, my a**.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    ^It was his third drug offense in 3 years. I don’t support the war on drugs at all, but you gotta play by the rules and can’t get 3 arrests relating to the same subject in 3 years. Was it really sizzurup that they arrested him for this time though?

  • http://www.offthebackboard.wordpress.com OTB

    He violated his terms of parole. Codeine is a controlled substance, and he had possession of it more than allowed. I don’t see how that isn’t justice. If you don’t want to go to jail, don’t do stupid sh*t like trying to distribute or possess 600 grams of said substance while driving illegally with a suspended license. Its his own fault for being dumb, especially after he got caught the first time and got lucky with parole.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    I think they were good enough, for the record. If Shaq would have done his thing.

  • http://nbasobrietystrike.blogspot.com/ CoolWhip

    Bahahaha @BIKE
    OTB: I loved those Lakers teams, and more than anything I think Shaq was just not ready for the next level. It wasn’t until 2000 that he became a complete and utter team-force. Before he was just a force, then he transmorphed into a force that helped his TEAM dominate, not just him. Plus, your point about losing to the Jazz has merit. I mean, with no MJ those teams probably go back to back.
    That all being said, going back to the original post, the idea of the players starting their own league is asinine. You’d have a better chance of some defacto owners starting their own league and paying NBA players.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    I don’t care if it was a pound of weed or a ton of cocaine, no person deserves to be in prison right alongside killers and child molesters for a drug offense.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Depends on the drug, and if they were distributing it. But for the most part, Cosign That JT.

  • Mburb321

    Funny story on 1st and 10. Stephen A. is covering the Vegas all star game and he says on camera LEBRON IS THE BEST ROOKIE I HAVE EVER SEEN. Later that night when he stops at a red light this blacked suburban comes flying up and slams on its breaks. The window rolls down and he thinks its a drive by and that hes about to get shot. All of a sudden a finger comes out pointing at him to come here. He gets out his car and approaches the truck. Its charles oakley and he says somebody wants to talk to you, MJ’s proceeds to cuss him out for saying something so stupid and to not let it happen again…….And it hasnt.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Like I said, I don’t support the war on drugs at all, but i’m trying to figure out why your upset about the law being enforced. If you seriously don’t like it this much then I would assume you will be obviously voting for Ron Paul this upcoming election correct?? Also…

    You ever watched K-1 kickboxing? That would be an excellent Sport for you to check out if you haven’t. Elite athletes going at it with no option of going to the ground. Boxing with kicks is essentially what it is. Also, get to a bar this weekend if you can and watch that UFC on Saturday. No ones going to the ground in the two headline fights. All 4 of the fighters are excellent at hand to hand combat. Henderson is a crazy good wrestler, but he is so good at boxing now that he rarely uses his wrestling. Shogun is one of the most talented fighters on the planet. Wanderlei Silva vs Cung Le should be amazing. Two of the most creative fighters around. Every limb you can toss in every way will happen.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    No, I won’t be voting for anyone because why bother? It doesn’t matter if it’s Chris Paul, Ron Paul or RuPaul in the white house, it’s going to be the same ole crooked politician in office.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    So you won’t even think about voting for the one guy who wants to stop the War on Drugs. I’m disgusted with the system also. That’s why you have to vote for the candidate the is thought to be least electable. That’s Ron Paul. He is the only one with a “different” approach than every other candidate. So do you think Obama is a “crooked politician”?

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Voting would be cool if the votes of the ignorant counted less. Vote or Die is the stupidest slogan I’ve ever heard. Educate yourself on what your voting for, then vote. That should be the slogan.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    ^smartie

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    lol, I didn’t say I’m not ignorant. I just don’t vote on the things I don’t know much about. Which is basically anything that covers one politician. I’ll vote on Propositions though.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Come on now, we all know that Ron Paul isn’t even going to get nominated by the Repubs to be the presidential candidate. How much does one singular vote from you really affect the outcome of an election?

  • http://wikipedia.org Eddie1

    Yo if any of y’all looking for PhD and master degrees, holla atcha boy. I got connects in both University of Illuminati, Illuminati Institute of Technology, and Illuminati State University.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Well your not as ignorant as most. I can tell that from an online conversation with you. Strictly due to the fact that you recognize it’s not about the physical process of voting, but it’s about making a good choice for the future.

    Do you not vote for Presidential elections?

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Si!

  • http://www.twitter.com/nflem41 Nicolas Fleming

    I live in Texas. I know my vote doesn’t count, but it’s the principle of the matter.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    I voted in the last election, but I also (tried to) paid close attention to the candidates and what they were campaigning for. Ultimately I just didn’t trust McCain at all, so I voted for Obama (didn’t matter,I live in Arizona, if you don’t vote Republican here, your vote doesn’t really matter).

  • chingy

    Wow, how’d this turn into Kobe vs Lebron again. Comon OTB, there’s absolutely NO comparing Kobe and Lebron in their rookie years. There’s a reason Kobe avg 15 min/game. And I don’t even like Lebron…

  • http://nba.com GP23

    Carmelo Anthony had a better rookie year than LeBron.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Yeah if you think a better rookie campaign is only contingent on team success.

  • http://nba.com GP23

    ^Melo had better stats than LeBron in his rookie year aswell. Melo was robbed of the ’04 ROY. LeBron won it because of all the hype he had, due to being 18, fresh out of high school etc. But as of today, of course LeBron is the better player. But if we’re talking rookie campaign… Melo wins !

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    No he didn’t. LeBron was more productive, and he had way way inferior teammates. Bron rightfully won that ROY.

  • Andyy

    I find it interesting how people are so against players teaming up when it has made the NBA that much more popular. The Celtics big 3 and the Heat’s big 3 have helped carry the league’s popularity the last few years. Fans say they want to see greatness and parity, but its hard to have both. The NBA was most popular during the 90s. Guess how many teams were dominating? One! The Bulls won 6 championships during that period and the Rockets won 2 during that period. Sounds like a lack of parity yet the NBA was never more popular. Look at the years with Bird and Magic; Kobe and Shaq. The NBA relies on and needs that dominant play.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    The NBA is more popular now then it was then. It’s bigger now then ever.

  • Maniac

    Damn I missed out. FML. I didn’t intend to turn this into a Bron vs Kobe debate. Y’all already know that I’m a huge Kobe fan, but LeBron was the better player as a rookie. Kobe was more SKILLED, but Bronze was more NBA ready. It would be interesting to know how Kobe’s career would have turned out had he been drafted to a s*** team.

  • Maniac

    Allen and nbk we’ll finish this ongoing lockout debate another day

  • Heals

    One point out of probably 50+ he made at the panel, but it’s juicy so everybody wants a taste. He touched upon the subject, and little more. We (more importantly he knows it’s a less lucrative, more difficult, alternative) all know this isn’t that legit but under the right conditions certainly a possibility…

  • Evolutionary

    Wow! We finally get to talk about what I want to talk about and the comments have regressed to LeBron v. Kobe and the war on drugs. What all you geniuses have failed to mention and seems abundantly clear is that if the players can pull off owning their own league, the game will take on new heights. Plain and simple, owners are superfluous – they are leaches on the game of basketball. They serve no functional purpose. Outside of owning arenas and practice facilities, a player-owned league can hire all the same people current owners do to run their organization. Without players there is no NBA. And what y’all have also failed to mention is that when superstars don’t have pivotal, dependable role players they can’t win championships. So, if players appreciate everyone’s value, and if they’re smart they do, they can band together and make a professional basketball league that can be about what its supposed to be about: LOVE FOR THE GAME!!!!! Folks get so beside themselves about money and forget about the love for the game. I expect that from owners but not from players and unconditional lovers of the game. Needless to say, I’m disappointed. Especially in you Allenp.

  • Heals

    Wow 180+ comments on an alternative league! Oh wait, should’ve known it’s cause a Kob v LBJ debate broke out (with a sprinkle of JJholly codiene talk)…

  • Drob

    Thank God for Hoopsmixtape…

  • Heals

    @Evo – Sounds like what alotta emcees and musicians did some years back to stop shiesty club promoters from taking what should have been theirs to begin with…

  • Fat Lever

    If hunter is in charge of this supposed new league, expect it to never happen. The guy is the definition of incompetent.

  • Evolutionary

    Heals,
    Exactly. Why pay the middleman when you’re doing all the work? Can you imagine what the game will be like when ballers are working for themselves! We thought last season was good. I can wait for them to figure out the logistics…

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Co-sign Nilescio.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    The political process is a joke… In all Western nations. Obama won in ’08 on a platform of insane vagueness. His campaign actually won an award in the advertising industry. As much as I respect Obama for breaking the color barrier in office, it really made no difference whatsoever. The biggest campaign contributors fund the Democrats and Republicans EQUALLY, and no matter who’s in office the corporations are served first.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Dennis Kucinich is the only worthy Democrat… Like, in the past 50 years. He should have won in ’08.
    And I can’t say a single Republican president has done a damn thing in the past freaking century.
    As for Bill Clinton, people need to stop acting like the worst thing he ever did was be unfaithful to his wife. Is that REALLY what they wanted to impeach him for?
    How about the fact that he was a mass freaking murderer?! People have their priorities all f*cked up.
    @ Lake Show: Co-sign on Ron Paul, for the most part. Definitely the only thinkable GOP candidate(who incidentally is Dennis Kucinich’s buddy).

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    sry for the rant… lol.

  • Dingo Rob

    Kobe was nothing like LeBron coming from high school, anyone who believes Kobe was a more NBA ready player with more skill was born in the 90s or smoked crack in the 80s…

  • http://dodgers.com Joey E.

    end this lockout dammit

  • Maniac

    Dingo doesn’t know what SKILLED means… plus it has already been established that there isn’t a wide margin. Yep

  • Justin

    You know Allenp, why don’t you just copy and paste your usual posts. We KNOW it baffles you that people don’t agree 100% with you in regards to who’s at fault. We KNOW you think the players are just as entitled to look for as much money as possible. We…KNOW!!! I don’t even think anyone’s disputing it. What we’ve had a problem with (and someone pointed it out earlier) is the players’ sense of entitlement to it. I once again draw your attention to the Cirque du Soleil and going to the movies comparison. We go to see the performers but who gets the majority of the money?
    And your comments about Michael Jordan are absolutely ludicrous. People were envious of his endorsements and didn’t like that he wore gold chains to his first slam dunk contest. They definitely weren’t envious of his salary considering he only made $630K in his rookie year. By comparison I believe Magic was paid $600K in his rookie year and I’d say Jordan earned it considering he put up 28ppg as a rookie. Saying the players thought he was a “bastard” is considerably false. Jealousy is a common thing. But, even if a couple of the things you say are true than that proves he did “earn” it in the end because most found out they were wrong. Magic admitted as much in his book.
    Lebron didn’t flaunt his power? HE HAD A ONE HOUR SPECIAL! Who does that? And yes, it makes a HUGE difference if a team is built through the draft and trades because that’s the company taking control of their team and making it better. Saying Lebron “was looking to sign and he figured out where” is very misleading. He knew he was leaving for a long time and he got his buddies together to form this supposed “superteam”, basically taking the job out of the GM’s hands. And I’m sorry, but getting together with a bunch of superstars to try and win a championship after not being able to get it done with your old team is such a pathetic way to do it. MJ could have left Chicago after his contract was done and after constantly losing to the Celtics and Pistons. Instead, he went to work while Krause put together the pieces around him and they went on to be one of the most dominant teams in history. Lebron was THAT close to winning but instead of doing it through hard work he wimps out the way he did. I believe his legacy will be tarnished by this, as it should

  • OG J

    The lockout is all the Heats fault! Who spends over $300 mil on two superstars and one overrated player, it makes other Franchises with lower cash flow worthless!

  • http://gmail.com z

    Wow a lotta hypocrisy from commentors on this thread, too much to address with one comment. Just wanna say that the players’ ONLY leverage against the nba is to make $ for someone besides the owners. Stern turned the nba into a stars’ league so if the STARS man up and start their own league (or go with foreign countries) then at least the owners will have to see that $ going to someone else and maybe that’ll motivate em to negotiate in good faith. Granted, the playas aint gonna make as much $ as they’re used to but like evolutionary just said, sometimes your love of the game itself has to be what sustains you (lawyers like eboy wouldn’t understand that lol). Lastly, a lotta you cats on this thread lack the intellectual integrity to not be hypocrites about this whole lockout situation, so you should just keep your opinions to yourself, so as to not make an ass of yourself on the world wide web. O yea, and evolutionary: you need to keep commenting, bro. I was the first to welcome maniac into the slamily bc I could tell from his 1st comment he had objective analysis combined with a socially progressive mind, and he aint let me down yet. I can see the same traits in you so evolutionary keep lettin your voice be heard.

  • Justin

    z, before you start talking about “the lack of intellectual integrity” of other posters, you may want to take the ridiculous looking and sounding ebonics out of your own posts. Playas? A lotta? Really?

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    Evolutionary
    I wouldn’t call the owners unnecessary. They are very necessary if the players don’t want to take a serious pay cut and a lot of personal risk.
    Just like employers everywhere for the most part.
    And I don’t expect people to act against their self interest. That doesn’t jibe with recorded human history. People tend to do what’s best for them the majority of the time.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    Justin
    Where did I say they envied his salary? Nobody envys LeBron’s salary since he’s always been underpaid based on his market value. But, they do envy his endorsement deals and the way he was hailed as the greatest ever so early in his career. Just like Mike went through.
    You think assembling a team is the GM’s job. I disagree. I don’t think players have to sit and wait to be surrounded by talent. That’s how you get screwed. Any player in the NBA can be traded at any time. Superstar to scrub. I would advise any player to look out for their self interest and their happiness and their career.
    I wasn’t a fan of LeBron’s team up, but I didn’t think it was disrespectful or an egregious use of power. It was a man deciding where he wanted to work and what was important to him. That bothered a lot of people.

  • http://gmail.com z

    @justin: stfu kid, I’m posting from a blackberry, and just ebonicized (lol) to save time. If you can’t dispute ANY of what I’m talking about then don’t resort to nitpicking about whether my spelling is correct. Btw, I’ve noticed from your posts that you REALLY seem to dislike urban black culture. Care to address why that is? Also why you bother concerning yourself with the blackest of all the major pro sports when you obviously have no appreciation for the ppl who are playing it?

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    There’s some dumb motherfu*kers in this world.

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    At this point it’s silly to argue. People are going to believe what they believe, folks are set in their stances.
    It’s all about how you view the world and the way you think it should work, at a certain point.
    If you think players are lucky to have the jobs they have, that they should be eternally grateful, and that they lack the intelligence to make decisions, then you will see things one way.
    If you think players earned their jobs, that they don’t have to be grateful for something they’ve earned just appreciative and that they are generally as intelligent as the regular population, then you see things another way.
    Lots of folks who watch the NBA don’t particularly care for the players. Same thing with several other sports.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    smh

  • Rohit

    This Billy Hunter is a Lawyer and he is minting money on the idiots,(THE PLAYERS) the biggest one Derrick Fisher .These Athletes have muscles not Brains,or have body muscles not brain muscles cause they never used that(brain) part of their body.All their life they depend on Agents,Managers or someone like Billy (the lawyer) .To save 2 billion in next 10 years for the players they have already lost 2 plus billion for this season .I was at the Marquette game it was more fun to watch college game it was fast and furious and was reasonable .so F**** NBA and their F**** Greedy Players and F**** greedy Bast***** owners .I will enjoy NCAA more this year then ever The money I would have spend for NBA will go to NCAA ,They deserve it more than ever

  • Rugulose

    Sigh, way too many comments on Slam’s site on this issue. That doesn’t seem fair, maybe we should start our own blog! Who’s in?!!! High fives all around!

  • heals

    Justin just so we have facts straight; Jim Grey was the person who thought about televising “The Decision.” He then contacted ESPN and LBJ to finalize it all. It was not LBJ’s brainchild. You can disagree that he did it or what he said while it happened, but that spectacle was just as much about ESPN flexing media muscle, Jim Grey working connections and America’s fascination with celebrity…

  • http://dodgers.com Joey E.

    why havent they cancelled the season yet? why wait,right?

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    because the season is going to happen. Its just a matter of who bites first. And someone will bite. Nobody is trying to lose out on billions of dollars.

  • Rico’G

    The World-Wide Basketball Association Sounds good to me. The WWBA could have 45 to 50 teams. Players from all around the world. Take what we have learned from the NBA and the overseas leagues, and make a better league. Find 50 investors that can each put up 250 million per team and lets get it started. Damn we can have a draft that includes Kobe, Lebron, D wade, D Rose, Dirk, and overseas players, that would be awesome. Ill watch, I mean the players in my mind have the power. starting New league is an excellent idea!!!! i was saying that shit might happen if this NBA season is lost about 2 months ago.. ask my cousin sheik and Rabiez… i predicted it.. Yep Rico’ G, When the NBA first started it was small and grew into a power house. It can all happen again. The nba started after the CBA or ABA. why can’t it happen again!!! please, you owners of the NBA better get a deal done and make these players happy!!!!!! The owners might end up looking like a stupid ass donkey..
    The WWBA………The World Wide Basketball Assoication…..

  • http://www.facebook.com/djricog Rico’G

    The World Wide Basket Association. The WWBA sounds good to me. 50 teams, a whole new draft, and get the best players from around the world. let get it started. we just need 50 investors who can put up 250 million per team. The NBA took over the ABA. now its time to take over the NBA. the players have the power. You owners better get a deal done, they might end up looking like a horse’s ass!! it is not 1960. its 2011. its not that hard to start a new league.. Players , Money and the Power!!!

  • http://www.facebook.com/djricog Rico’G

    Too bad for the Memphis Grizzlies!!! They really had a shot this year!!! DaMN!!!!

  • eZ

    Let’s do something useful, show these players and owners what a really sensible CBA looks like:

    -Minimal age to enter the NBA is 20 years. The NBA wil benefit from some more mature players, mature in person and mostly mature and educated in real team play. To many athletically gifted, do-it-all youngsters enter and fundamentals and teamplay suffer. No more “Let’s do some more iso-plays for our star”.
    HS players can choose college for two years, and be gratefull for the free education, sportsguidance and teamball education, OR if they can’t intellectually or don’t want to, enter the D-League draft and play for money two years. Now here’s a change to really apply the D in D-league.

    -Draft 1 round of 40 players, D-League, International and College. Lottery for top 10 picks among 10 teams with the worst record. Lottery for 11-20 positions for teams that had the 11th to 20th worse record in the league. Lottery for 21st to 30th picks among 10 teams with the worst record. Lottery for 31st to 40th picks among 10 best regular season teams in the league.

    -Rookie scale contracts are 3 years. That is THE time a rookie needs to come into his own, superstar or no. After 3 years the rookie is a restricted agent! He can negotiate for a fair market value deal. But the team that drafted him, took a chance on him and invested in his growth can retain him for the market value.

    -No further use of the restricted free agent status, it is stupid, either a player is free or not. Contract-end=free agent.

    -Max contract length is 3 years! Why? Because the contractvalue will be better based on the players worth. Why would a player like Howard or Anthony be afraid to have to resign after three years? They will still be max value, and have the choice to switch teams as well. And players with undervalued or overvalued contracts will be getting their deserved appreciation. Max guys get max contracts, over the hill superstars get contracts based on their performance not their legacy
    -Contracts are fully guaranteed. Players need not be concerned with individual benchmarks, stats, accolades. The only thing that counts is the team result. Help your team win. They need to be assured that they are fully paid when injured, so that they can go all out during the game. No worries, no holding back; hustle, teamplay, teamsacrifice.

    -No exceptions, bi annual, mid level, trade etc. Exceptions mean the basic rules aren’t good enough. Exceptions create complication. No bird rights, sign and trades none of it is allowed and basically not needed.

    -Minimal salary, applicable from year 4, so after the rookiescale, is 1 mln dollar. So every nba player will be a millionaire. Every year hereafter that you play will add 100K in pay. These are the veteran increases, compensation for experience.

    -Max salary is 20 mln a year. This is about 25% of a teams total max payroll.
    -Hard Cap, but set at 84 mln, 12 players on payroll so an avg salary of 7 mln.
    -No BRI percentage split. Why ? Salaries are guaranteed, min salaries are in place, so are max. The players will receive ample and fair compensation by todays and tomorrows standards. No escrow, and more of those if- but- maybe- then- rules.

    Who says yeah? Yeah!

  • MaxIsNative

    Can I join?

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    What happens when revenue drops and salaries are fully guaranteed?

  • shutupallenp

    I think expansion is the key problem in all of this, to many weak teams. back when bird was winning championships they played detroit like 5 times a year and chicago and even saw the lakers 3 times. now the weak teams water down the competition and thin out the talent pool. Im all for loaded teams going at each other. boston miami was a great series last year. who really cared (except for offcourt drama ) when miami played cleaveland? If your team isnt supposedly profitable, close up shop and go away.

  • Heals

    See now I can vibe on that shutup. I don’t care if it’s fewer jobs for players anymore at least 1 team in each conference needs to get dropped (I know this may create a divisional and schedule issue, but like you kindof implied the schedule is lopsided anyway). Unfortunately we all know Stern doesn’t want contraction on his record. He’ll leave it out there for the next commish to tackle. There is no doubt in my mind the other owners know it and players as well, these poorly run (which is the main issue, it’s bad personnel moves) teams in weaker markets don’t have a realistic chance of changing thier current fortunes unless they nail the draft one year and then follow it up and precede it with stellar drafts as well. Hope everyone blossoms at about the same time, none of the top 5 suffer a season-ender, throw-in a well-timed veteran trade or key FA signing and pray all the egos fall in line. I know it’s over the top, but look at NO (sans CP3, poor trades and signings), Cha (awfuls drafts, bad signings, asinie trades), Mil (after B’s arm, poor trades and over paying mid-level talent), Phx (sans Nash, selling 1st round picks for money, poor trades, not making trade with STAT), Minn (sideways trades, too many players with similar skill sets playing the same positions, over-paying FA’s that don’t fit the teams timeline for success, inability to make a coaching decision and let it play out), NJ (before new ownership just a total mess of bad trades and taking on too much salary in return), Sac (inability to make right moves after the C-Webb/Bibby squads faded away, not a big FA contender given the location, horrible financial moves off the court by the Maloofs handicapping their ability to spend on the team). And to think Beantown had no C and a 1-armed pg – that shht was going 7 easy and possibly set up to be an all-timer. Ugggh, only if…

  • eZ

    @AllenP, my top-of-the head cba probably misses out on a ton of things but i really think that a max contract lenght of 3 years provides enough dynamic for both owners to adjust to team needs (financially or personel-wise) and players to influence their career paths and get relative marketvalue. Not all contracts end at the same time and revenue won’t drop so dramatically within one or two years. If real harsh economic times hit the entire nba financial income, new contracts would automatically be lower to keep costs inbounds.

  • shutupallenp

    the whole Canadian expansion was a bust, they have had good players but couldnt keep any of them. seeing so many sub .500 teams in the playoffs makes me sick. i think, not 100% sure but 5-8 last year from the eastern conference was sub .500

  • http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/10/27/lockout-q-and-a-kevin-murphy/index.html Allenp

    The owners would never agree to a system where a superstar could change teams after three years. The best way to make money in the League is to have a superstar on your team. That is one of the things the owners want to insure. That if a superstar wants to change teams is going to cost them a nice chunk of change.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    The Raptors can’t keep their Star Players because they haven’t been able to build a legitimate winner around them. The closest they came was with Vince in 01, but Tracy McGrady was put on the back burner and he didn’t appreciate that much, so he left. As far as I’ve read and heard from players that played in Toronto, that is one of the best cities in the League to play in. And their fans are more interested and engaged than a majority of the American teams.

  • eZ

    @AllenP
    I’m not saying my cba proposal would have a good chance to be agreed upon.
    But for the owners as much as for the player goes ‘you can’t have your cake and eat it too’. The owners would like short contracts, but not to lose their star. If they had their way they would sign a contract for 6 years of team options. The players want freedom of movement but they also want a guaranteed 6 years of max pay (cough cough carmello).
    It’s all too human to look in fear to what might be lost, if only people had some faith and would look at what could be gained…your star might walk, but others could knock on your door.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    The Owners are getting their cake and eating it too. They are getting more money, and restricting player movement. That is what they wanted out of the lockout, and they are going to get it. Just how much of it, is the question.

  • eZ

    Man I like slamonline, but commenting..most of my comments don’t show up..impossible to stay motivated. I will become a regular if they ever change that comment-system.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    try and use a different Browser. Or try and contact a slam staff member and let them know your having issues. THe more people that voice their issues the more likely slam is to do something about it

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    @ shutupallenp: What are you even talking about? The Toronto Raptors are one of the most profitable and valued franchises in the NBA playing for one of the largest markets in North America. Please get your facts straight. Whether or not the Raptors play well as a team, the expansion to Canada was a no-brainer from a business standpoint. You can blame expansion all you want, the fact is Miami and Toronto (two expansion teams that came into the league at the same time) are consistently near the top of the league when it comes to profitability.

  • shutupallenp

    Well i think actions speak louder than words, if the players love it so much how come none of them stay? the extra travel probably plays a factor, applying for work visas and moving your family to a different country has to be a major problem.
    The idea starting a league is a bit much i think its just posturing for the negotiations to come.
    However i think a round robin tournament could be highly profitable, or a series of games that the players put up their own money?
    i remember shaq vs Olajuwan was supposed to be on ppv and if i recall taco bell was supposed to sponsor it.
    The greatest tool in any negotiation is the ability to walk away. The players need to show their need is less than that of the owners and then and only then will they get any foothold in these procedures.

  • shutupallenp

    when was the last time that nbatv featured a toronto game? and toronto is and always be a hockey town, which btw is played during the nba season. so i think my facts are pretty much in order, now toronto is barely a contender for anything except the draft

  • shutupallenp

    and the miami heat entered the league in 1988 it was vancouver another failed canadian experiment that entered the league with toronto and we see how that turned out

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    ^ Vancouver was a completely different case. There wasn’t a big enough fan base at the time. It’s not *always* about how well a team plays. The Raptors play for one of the largest cities in North America–in the world, actually. Just because it’s in Canada doesn’t mean it’s a small market or that its fans aren’t loyal. The Knicks were absolute sh!t since about 2002, and they’re consistently one of the most profitable franchises in the league. The same goes for the Raptors. If your city can support the team financially then there’s no reason not to have a team there.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    my bad i thought miami entered the league the same time as the raptors.
    Anyways, of course Canada is a hockey nation for the most part… But that’s irrelevant. The US can just as easily be called a football nation or a baseball nation, yet most NHL teams are stationed in American cities.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Players dont want to stay in Toronto because they aren’t building towards winning. Games aren’t shown on national television for the EXACT SAME REASON. And Vancouver and Miami are not related, Vancouver started in 96 with Toronto – it just didn’t bring in the revenue that was exPected and was a failure. Toronto has been anything but a failure as a business.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Miami’s expansion season was the same as The Charlotte Hornets. The year after that was the expansion seasons of Minnesota and Orlando.

  • shutupallenp

    but football and baseball dont play in the heart of the nba season. and most people will watch nba over nhl in america. Now your arguing profitability over competitiveness. I never said it wasnt profitable but extra teams= weaker teams. the knicks never stay bad for long since 2002 they made the playoffs more than toronto and they trade for better more exciting players. Besides i think toronto plays too many white players to be competitive, always found it suprising that certain teams end up with less melanin.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    No extra teams don’t necessarily = Weaker teams. The condensing of superstars (and lack of them, there is like 10, you can’t cut 20 teams out of the league) causes weaker teams. Planning for the future causes weaker teams. Cities where a lot of players don’t want to live (like New Orleans, Charlotte, Minnesota) cause weaker teams. Dumb management causes weaker teams. If every team got to redraft their rosters from scratch, and were told there would only be 1 season to have a chance to win. The league would be pretty balanced, except the best 7-10 players would more than likely lead the teams with the best records. It’s not about the 4-5 teams that can or arguably should be contracted are diluting the competitive balance of the whole league. That isn’t what is happening.

  • shutupallenp

    more teams do in fact lead to a shallower talent pool. in a league of maybe 50 superstars. less teams equal more superstars per team, its simple math
    x=superstars y=teams

    x/y=ratio of stars per team
    50/30=1.66
    now in a league of 20 teams
    50/20=2.5
    thats an increase of talent overall because the role players would have to be better as well to secure the remaining jobs

  • shutupallenp

    oh and the number of “superstars” are probably closer to 30 than 50

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    There is maybe 10 “superstars” – the rest are good players, who don’t really change a teams success by themselves. 50 is an absurd number. Not even close

  • JoeMaMa

    a HEADS UP to those wishing to get a fresh, good perspective on this lockout. Zack Lowe, of cnnsi.com, wrote a great article about the current state of things. It’s on the website. Everyone should have a read.

  • Justin

    Vancouver left because the last owner, when he bought it, promised that he wouldn’t try to move them. We all know what happened next. We got the shaft here in BC and would love to have a team again but I doubt that will happen again. David Stern has gone on record as saying that move along with the Seattle move were two of his biggest regrets as commissioner. And I have no idea where to go with the “Toronto plays too many white players to be competitive” line. I’m glad the Celtics of the 80′s didn’t have that mentality

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Oh and I find you to be racist. % of white players to black players on a basketball team is not why Toronto hasn’t been winning. You focusing on melanin count every time you comment or judge somebody makes you look like a bitter racist.

  • shutupallenp

    300 years of slavery has left me sort of bitter. but the last white dominant team to be competitive was the celtics. and im not a racist i just dont believe a team that starts 3-4 white players can be competetive in the nba. And boston was white americas team, as the lakers were there anti team subscript (black flashy players) go watch the pistol pete movie if you need a refresher or glory road.

  • shutupallenp

    fact majority of superstars in the nba are black. i put the figure about 95% dirk and nash are the exceptions.
    and btw do you think those white players ended up on the celtics by accident? they know their fan base just like i imply that toronto does

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    I’m well aware of the racial past of our country. But it’s the past. Leave it there. And if a team of Dirk, Pau, Nash, + any 2 whatever race players would As a starting lineup, be as good as any team that competes for a title. So it can happen. And just because it hasn’t in a while, and the % of black players is so high, doesn’t excuse saying such a blatantly racially charged comment. It adds absolutely nothing to the conversation.

  • shutupallenp

    i said it in reference to the reason toronto fails. but you took it as a personal attack. and the past is the past but it influences everything that happens today. and dirk pau and nash would not compete for a title look at when they played on the mavs together. throw kevin love in there and that australian you still dont have a contender.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    I know and realize certain teams will take one ethnic group over another. Bur your ignorant as can be if you think race is more important to these teams than winning. In the 80s the Celtics were open to black players, they just had to be guys that could put up with how they would be treated. Plus that was 20 years ago, America has progressed pretty far in terms of racial awareness and acceptance, acting like it still persists to that degree is ignorant. I am not saying race isn’t still a big issue, but it doesn’t help the situation to include race where it doesn’t, and shouldn’t belong. This is about competitive balance, and you saying it is stretched to thin with 30 teams. Race doesn’t fit into that theory, anywhere.

  • Maniac

    Nash is no longer a superstar. There are less than 15 of them. Superstars = Bron, Durant, Kobe, Rose, Wade, Dwight, Dirk, CP3, Melo, Deron, Amare, and Blake. I have a hard time calling Pau and Westbrook superstars but they can be considered

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    I said Dirk. And I also said there are only 7-10 superstars. Was just giving a glaring example of how ignorant that comment was by imagining those three in the same starting lineup. Wasn’t calling all of them superstars.

  • Maniac

    Yeah I have no idea why race matters this convo. Who do you consider superstars?

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    LeBron, Wade, Howard, Bryant, Dirk, Durant, Rose, Paul, Williams.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    My definition of superstar is a player that basically assures your team will make the playoffs if he is healthy. Not the guys that are most popular, like the two All Stars in New York.

  • Maniac

    Good point. Our definitions overlap. I consider superstars to be franchise players. Amare can go, but Melo has argument. (Though Amare kept the knicks in the playoffs this year). I take Blake back too

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    I think Blake is on his way. And you put those Knicks in the west and they are a lottery team. That’s what I mean by assure a playoff spot. But I got no stress with your opinion on this, makes sense to me.

  • Maniac

    Yeah I agree. Blake was premature but I was thinking for the future. Melo and Amare can be ranked on that same level as Pau and westbrook. Borderline lol. Those other 9 are bonafide

  • Heals

    Toronto has been hurt by the exchange rate in the past. Now that the dollar is so weak players don’t have to worry about earning less if they signed the same contract with Tor that they would’ve with a American franchise…

  • Heals

    Hey shutup, while your giving out history lessons do your self a favor and look up who the first black coach was and also examine the rest of those early Bos rosters. The C’s were not representative of Boston’s racial tolerance. If anything those early C’s teams helped many Bostonians realize their racial ignorance and the absurdity of rooting for blacks on the court, but treating them like shht off it…

  • shutupallenp

    yeah but they needed clean cut black players too fit, such as parish and russell. it was no secret that race influenced a lot of fans to seek out boston or the lakers.
    i see a superstar as a player that influences the other teams defensive strategy night in and night out.
    aldridge, rose, bryant, paul, williams(nets), amare, carmelo, wade, james, dirk, granger, joe johnson, dwight howard, tony parker, i can go on.
    and the only reason race came up is because i gave an example or part of my theory that a team in toronto fails.

  • shutupallenp

    for other “superstars” refer to slams top 50 start at 30 and work your way down

  • shutupallenp

    and racism in america is still alive and well practiced. stop acting like if your daughter or son brought home a black bf/gf someone in your family wouldnt have a problem with it @nbk
    its easy for whites to say just forget about it and move on, i dont use it as an excuse for not finding success but to act like its just gone is pure ignorance

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Well your definition of “superstar” is about the same as everyone else’s common definition of “all-star” – and if you think there are 30 “superstars” enough for 1 per team, then Toronto has just as much of a right to be in the league as anyone else, considering their huge market and close proximity to all of the Eastern conference…. What you seem to be clamoring about doesn’t make sense under your own argument.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Ive acknowledged that racism is still in issue, and I’m in an interracial relationship as we speak with a child on the way. And NOBODY in my family has an issue with it. So stop your stupid ignorant opinions, And examine the world around you…… And the Jheri Curl Is out of style as well, seeing as how you still think it’s 1989.

  • shutupallenp

    well then im pretty sure someone in your family looks down on you for it. and if not im sure youve felt racist pressure from some source from either side. oh and i dont have a jheri curl, im white/canadian, i wear a denim suit and have a mullet
    and my point being one superstar per team isnt enough for really competitive season long schedules, that teams that can secure two or three are seen as super teams ie boston, miami, some consider nyc the or lakers with kobe and pau. so if there were less teams that pool of 30 gets split between 20. would you rather split a lottery winning with 20 people or 30 people.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Your an idiot. I’m done with you. Say whatever ignorant sh*t you want. Your clearly to much of a self absorbed moron to atleast realize your ignorant. No use telling you how stupid you are past this. Have a nice life on slam.

  • shutupallenp

    lol, i just play ignorant on tv

  • Heals

    shutup, I get what you’re saying and mostly agree, but up until the 70′s everybody was clean cut. Russel may have seemed to toe the line on the outside, but that’s only because he was a raging inferno of black self-awareness and expression on the inside. Throw in KCJones, JojoWhite, CornbreadMaxwell, etc. and you get a reality that shares a much different sentiment of racial equality than how the rest of the city, the country and the media was ready for at the time. “it was no secret that race influenced a lot of fans to seek out boston or the lakers” – mos definitely except for the shoes. Magic had his clean cut white Cons and Bird wore the clunky looking black ones, which ironically everyone agreed were ugly…

  • shutupallenp

    right but magic and the showtime nickname were portrayed as flashy, even with kareem abdul-jabbar he was a vigilant protester and stood for black power not just equality. Russell played the game very well not just basketball, he influenced change by being accepted and once established he could do what he had to do. honestly i think the celtics did a smart thing by making him player coach, but even though his long standing in celtics green i dont think the community supported the decision. This coming from someone who is mixed growing up in an all white neighborhood in queens.
    and for anyone that thinks racism is dead, take your white or black ass down to a court occupied by a different demographic.
    see it was a problem taking black friends to my neighborhood to play because of their color or my white friends to play in the black neighborhoods that i frequently played. racism cuts both ways, and ive seen enough to speak on it even if its just a glimpse, its like an iceberg if you see a little be damn sure theres a whole mountain of it underneath.

  • http://www.facebook.com/#!/joe.l.brewer3 BlackPhantom

    Oh boy, that allenp hater is at it again

  • Evolutionary

    I’m really, really late. Hopefully someone sees this…
    Z: Thanks for the invite to keep posting. I will. It just might be a bit after the fact. Not on purpose though.
    I was excited to see y’all discuss the possibility of a player-owned league and then there was that regression again – an off the cuff cba! Focus, focus. No, it was actually pretty impressive just the wrong way to go in my opinion.
    AllenP: How many millions does a man need! Owners are only necessary if we want to maintain the status quo. The issue is that the status quo is not working. Why not take this opportunity to DRAMATICALLY change the way professional basketball is run as a business – ways that detract from the positive energy of the game. Clearly a player-owned league would involve sacrifice for players with huge contracts. As has been stated before, the owners made a bed that they no longer want to lay in with these huge unfront contracts and thats why were here (among other things of course).
    I think the new league pay structure should be completely flat with incentives added. At the beginning of the season, everybody is guaranteed the same amount of money. A players spot in the salary distribution is elevated first and foremost based on revenue. If its split evenly and there is no money left after the guaranteed salary, everybody needs to do better. When there is greater revenue (and there will be) the championship team gets the most money, then the other championship contender, then the MVP, then the points champion, Defensive Player of the Year, Rebounding chamption, etc. However they wanted to do it. If they have an amazing season like they did last season folks will make more than enough and the incentive is to continue to produce amazing basketball. Can you imagine what it would mean to the American people to show such a dramatic shift in doing business: get paid what you earn, value the greater good over personal gain, prioritize love for the game over money. People who have never thought about basketball will watch basketball just to see what happens. They can hold a press conference tomorrow and its on a poppin’.
    BTW, I don’t have a dick.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Hey nbk, congradulations on the child! When is he/she due?

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    @ shutupallenp: Yes the Raptors have had an infatuation with European players but that has little to do with the city of Toronto. Brian Colangelo just has a thing for signing foreign/overseas players. He did the same thing in Phoenix.
    You do realize that Toronto is not a freaking small market, right? You also realize that Toronto is not 100% white and actually has minorities, right?
    Toronto is more culturally/ethnically diverse than Los Angeles, Miami, and even New York. Around 50% of the people living in Toronto were born outside of Canada. Please check your facts before you start spewing your nonsense.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    congratulations*

  • http://www.facebook.com/#!/joe.l.brewer3 BlackPhantom

    Congratz to nbk.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Thanks Teddy. Beginning of March is when the little one is comin out.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Appreciate it Phantom.

  • shutupallenp

    yes i do realize the makeup of toronto, and was never commenting on the city. I have been to canada three times, i played hockey and went to hockey camp in ontario. being around both cultures hockey and basketball i realized that the cross section of fans is small its usually a one or the other thing, and toronto as far as im concerned is the hockey capital of canada, therefore the competition for fans interest is harder. never said it wasnt profitable, again i think expansion has hurt league wide competitiveness. and torontos obsession with european players (which happen to be Caucasian) is part of the reason i feel they arent a good team, besides lack of coaching and the inability to hold onto good players.
    @teddy what nonsense have i been spewing?
    oh at nbk well see how you view racism the first time your mixed child is made fun of for being different(if you live in a predominately white neighborhood, or be made fun of for not being black enough), i hope neither happens, but then maybe you can understand my position

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    I have faced criticism for my situation now, as has my significant other. We are both as prepared as first time parents can be for whatever our child will face. Other people’s racism and personal issues are not EVER going to reflect on me. And your insistence on bringing up race in conversations (2 and counting tonight if I’m not mistaken) is pretty clear proof that you have some kind of racial bias that you apparently need express, resolve, or to get over. Once you stop making ignorant assumptions and just focus on basketball than I won’t really have a problem with you. and changing your name would be cool, just because it would be less obvious that your a pathological hater.

  • shutupallenp

    well not gonna change the name, i think its funny. i have no hate for allenp, i think hes insightful and other than than a handful of comments overall a good poster. This wasnt a rant about race, people attacked me for voicing an opinion about torontos players, maybe i should have said european instead of lack of melanin but didnt want to assume all white players on toronto are from europe. other than that i added a comment why i thought contraction (opposite of expansion) would serve the nba better from a competitive standpoint. But ignoring a problem will not make it go away, i prefer malcom to martin. I never said reflect but as an issue this is something you will have to deal with, turning the other cheek maybe your solution id rather look them in the eye and fight for my beliefs. I only bring up race when i see someone else making racist comments. nahhh meeeen?

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    You perceive racism when it isn’t their. And put race into opinions and analogies where it shouldn’t be (if your not racist, or looking to start conversation, after conversation, after conversation, and so on, about race). And I didn’t say I don’t confront people. I do as I did with you, would have said things along the exact same lines. I am not going to insinuate racism onto people though, or intentionally bring it into a conversation like you have consistently done. Its ridiculously ignorant, especially with some of the assumptions you have made. – and on the basketball front, I didn’t argue against contraction, I argued against Toronto as even a candidate for it. The only teams that would be considered for contraction would be New Orleans, Minnesota, Sacramento, & Milwaukee. But I would only support NO & SAC and that’s only if the plan is to add expansion teams in San Jose, Las Vegas (not gonna happen), &/or Seattle (if they can get an arena). I would rather them compromise on the BRI at 50-50, keep the soft cap at 60M and instituting still luxury tax penalty’s (if that HAS to happen, which it does). The rest is not really that important (imo).

  • shutupallenp

    not that i perceive it, im tuned into it. I know how to spot it and i call it out, on this post i think my analogy and opinion is spot on.all i said is that toronto has more white players than the average nba team, they might actually lead the list in this category, and i feel (my opinion) that they are not competitive because of it (in part) as for my other posts, i stand by what i typed, but will conceded that some of my judgements maybe off a bit, as the things i called out as racism is actually just ignorance

  • shutupallenp

    and not ignorance on my part but that of the poster

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Whatever you say

  • Justin

    The Raptors problems had nothing to do with the exchange rate. They were still getting paid in American dollars. It was harder to go out and get top free agents because they charge in Canadian dollars obviously for tickets but pay out American to the players. It’s also why, in the NHL, Quebec and Winnipeg had to leave for Denver and Phoenix. Thankfully Winnipeg is back where they belong

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    This was a funny discussion.
    Congrats on the baby
    Racism is more of a problem than people realize
    And the Celtics as a franchise might have been the most racially progressive in the League back when Russell played. They weren’t perfect at all but compared to the times they were great.

  • Heals

    uggghhh comment won’t show…

  • bolletrie

    Wow this is just an awesome awesome discussion. AllenP is da man. love how he schools everyone with solid arguments.
    Cosigning everything he said.

  • Heals

    Nothing to do with it, really Justin? Thanks for talking out of your a$$, but it’s not necessary. That’s exactly what an exchange rate is. For some reason my cut and pasted comment won’t post so feel free to google anything about the US-Can exchange rate and it’s impact on Canadian sports franchises. Most the articles refer to the NHL but it still applies It’s been true in baseball and hockey as well. What compels an individual to comment without any factual support for their POV is beyond me, but more power to ya. Convincing American born players to sign in Tor or Van was going to be difficult to begin with let alone when their contract would only be worth .82 on the dollar (1995 rates). Now the Canadian rate is 1.05 to the USdollar, so it’s a slight advantage. So was it the main reason, no, but it’s been widely known around sports circles and those owning Canadian teams that they have to overpay players to lure them away from American contracts. Justin, in the words of $$$ Mayweather “Step your game up!”…

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Thanks AP

  • shutupallenp

    one last point i never said toronto was racist just said they have an affinity for signing caucasian players, maybe they have taken this “european” influx to far, maybe their scared to miss out on the next Dirk.

  • tizzy fit

    That would be fun to watch. A bunch of blithering idiots, who can’t speak English, without say “you know” 60 times a minute, attempting to put together a team, let along an entire league. As usual, these fools opinion of themselves far exceeds their worth to society. The world will survive without these trailer tagged morons.

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