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Wednesday, November 2nd, 2011 at 9:50 am  |  93 responses

The Mess Derek Fisher and Billy Hunter Find Themselves in


by Marcel Mutoni@marcel_mutoni

This is how embarrassingly bad things have gotten for the NBA players’ side in this labor war: they went from fighting David Stern, public opinion, and the team owners. to fighting allegations that their leaders are now fighting amongst themselves.

Here’s the blow-by-blow of what’s taken place over the last 72 hours or so, a crucial period of time that could have otherwise been used to, oh gee I don’t know, negotiate to end the NBA lockout perhaps?

After it was reported that Derek Fisher had cut a side-deal with David Stern for the players to accept the 50/50 split on BRI, Fisher wrote a letter (which was of course leaked to the press) denying the whole thing. Another report came out that Billy Hunter was no longer in good standing within the union, which forced him to write his own letter — leaked once again — claiming that everything was rosy, and that everyone must stick together. Fisher then took things to another level by lawyering up in his latest missive claiming he’s not partnering with the League on any deals.

Got all that? Good.

For what it’s worth, David Stern says that he didn’t have a secret meeting with Derek Fisher, and that no side-deals have been cut. It wasn’t reported whether or not Stern was laughing uproariously at the ridiculous position the players’ union finds itself in now.

Ugh. What a disaster.

At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter who’s telling the truth between Billy Hunter, Derek Fisher and the media’s “sources”.

All that matters is that labor negotiations between owners and the union must renew, players have to somehow get out of this with a halfway-decent deal, and most importantly, NBA games need to start being played again, and soon.

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  • Riggs

    Player’s Union need to find a new President and Rep.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Like I said several weeks ago, if you’re relying on Billy Hunter and Derek Fisher to try and resolve a business problem, you’re f*cked. Two dummies and the owners know it. What a fuc*ing joke.

  • DieselMechanic

    The NBA is one big hefkor veldt right now.

  • neaorin

    The DFish side deal story has to be bogus. If DFish could actually deliver the union at 50-50 he would have gone back to the players and asked them to back it, then either get Hunter to buy in or get rid of him outright. Hunter is working for the players, not the other way around. Bottom line, if the players were actually onboard with 50-50 we’d have a deal by now.

  • http://www.slamonline.com UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER

    I WISH SHANE BATTLE WAS IN FISHFLOPPERS POSITION.

  • bull22

    i said it right from the beginning, both owners and players are messing up their product, but i clearly told many of you here because of the economy the players would lose this battle, its just a matter of time now..

  • robb

    Derek is a player, he has no other interest than helping his colleagues, but Billy Hunter has been the Executive Director of the National Basketball Players Association since the mid nineties, he has other interests and the well being of the players isn’t the only thing he’s protecting here. Step down Billy.

  • FL23

    I don’t believe any of these stories. Some writer made this story up that caused Derek Fisher and Billy Hunter to respond.

  • bull22

    at this point those that are stubborn like hunter and those players who huffed and puffed their chests are trying to prevent themselves like looking like buffoons and they are prolonging this mess… i said it not all players were along with this, this is what they do for a living..

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Damn. An anonymous media report is posted that quite possibly could be based on lies or misinformation and this is taken as proof of infighting and problems.
    As if it doesn’t make logical sense for someone to leak a story like this to discredit the union, sow discord amongst the players and finally get them to cave just as their paychecks stop coming in?
    Like, that didn’t seem likely to anyone?
    Because it’s below David Stern and the NBA owners? Because they’re honorable and forthright individuals?
    The same League that brought you “rogue” operator Tim Donaghy?
    This is stupid. According to David Aldridge the owners threw their nuts on the table this weekend. They said you take a 50/50 split and get screwed on the system, or you take a 53-47 percent and get all these system concessions you want.
    So, basically, the owners have not changed their position on BRI split AT ALL over months of negotiations.
    Think about that for second. All this dickering and they are at the exact same figures they were at on BRI before this whole dispute started, with the only concession being will allow you to only have nominal negative changes to the “system” instead of wholesale changes that greatly reduce player power.
    And just when that deal gets thrown down, the deal that looks incredibly unreasonable given all the back and forth, that’s when this news breaks?
    Coincidence? Yeah, ok.
    The owners want the players to reduce their percentage by 10 percentage points.
    Consider the current deal. If you apply a 47 percent figure to BRI, the players would get $1.78 biilion, which is down from the $2.16 billion they got this past year. That’s $380 million, which is all the losses the League reported PLUS an extra $80 million for good measure.
    But, considering total revenue of $4.3 million, that means the owners go from earning a total of $2.14 billion to earning $2.52 billion.
    You think all that money isn’t worth spreading a rumor about?

  • Red Star

    What a joke!

  • http://www.slamonline.com UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER

    STERNS COINTELPRO AT WORK

  • http://wikipedia.org Eddie1

    Illuminati. Y’all heard it here first. SLAM

  • bike

    So, yesterday we have an owner busted for tweeting about how he’s not all on board about locking the players out and today we have rumors of major divisions within the player’s ranks and incompetent union leadership. Anyone see a trend here?

  • andre anglais

    Yeah, this looks like smoke screen from Stern more than anything else. Especially the part about Fisher flying solo – that’s plain crazy. Its weird, but more and more I’m seeing this dispute as being another example of “whats wrong with America” and our (your, actually) economic system – constant erosion of workers rights, with owners/management masterfully using the media to turn working classes against one another.
    And yes, I am calling NBA pro’s “working class” and I know that that is reedickulous

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Andre
    I’ve said that from the beginning. Just because the “workers” make tons of money doesn’t mean they aren’t “workers.”
    As David Aldridge noted, (And I tend to trust his writing because he’s willing to miss a scoop to get stuff right), this whole thing was about fixing some economic issues, but mainly about reestablishing who was in control. Like I said from the jump, the owners want to get to a point like the NFL where not only is it never questioned who is in charge, the players just accept that reality as the way the world works.

  • LA Huey

    “David Stern is actually being undermined by Adam Silver in a power struggle. The owners actually want the deal the players have offered but Stern and Silver refused to hear their pleas.”
    See how easy that was?

  • bull22

    any of those who think there is not a crack among the players union and think like billy hunter’s nephew allenp need to get a grip on reality. those who have truly kept up with this lockout know the PLAYERS will LOSE this time.
    back in 1999 a handful of players helped end the lockout and history will repeat itself… watch…

  • http://www.slamonline.com rich

    and on a side note the heat are supposed to be visiting the knicks tonight…..Now i really miss the nba

  • LA Huey

    Everyone knows the players will lose. They’ve already lost as they conceded over 4% of the BRI. The players are just trying to minimize the losses. Allen and anyone else with a brain can see that. We got Taj Gibson’s #1 fan in here commenting like we don’t recognize that.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    The NHL gave its players a similar deal to what the NBA owners are proposing…
    The hockey players made their “pre lockout” money back in less than a decade. For more hockey revenue was generated as the years progressed.
    Not looking good for anyone involved in this.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    From Billy Hunter’s letter to the players:
    As you know, NBA players have received 57% of BRI for many years. In an effort to make a deal and save the season, in past meetings we have offered to reduce our share to as low as 52.5% with certain system issues in our favor. On Friday, considering the many system points we had already conceded, I hoped and expected the owners would move towards our proposed BRI number. Instead, Commissioner Stern insisted that the NBA would move no further than 50%, and I ended the meeting.

    In my view, a 50/50 split of BRI does not adequately compensate the players for our services to the NBA. Remember that BRI does not reflect the total revenues generated by the NBA. The NBA is allowed to take hundreds of millions in “expense credits” before sharing any revenue with the players ($543m in 2010-11). Given this, under the NBA’s proposal, the players would receive only 44% of total revenue generated by the league. By comparison, we received 50% of total revenue under the previous CBA, and our 53/47 proposal would reduce the player share to 46.4% of total revenues. In addition, compared to our former 57/43 split, the owner’s proposed 50/50 shifts more than $300 million per year to the owners, which equates to more than $3 billion over a 10-year deal. A move of this magnitude guarantees operating profits for all owners irrespective of quality of management and does not allow players to adequately share in the growth of the league

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I’ve been telling y’all that for weeks. It took them way to long to start pointing this out, and they should have been more strident about representing this fact to the media on every occasion.
    I wish I did PR for the NBPA.

  • LA Huey

    Allen, you listen to Hunter on Simmons podcast? It’s obvious he’s retarded when it comes to speaking with and using the media. The NBPA really need a better PR group. It’s as if they got LRMR working for them. Pathetic.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    Shout out to Maverick Carter…

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    He, like most people, does not understand how media members works. Stern knows EXACTLY how they works.
    I’m telling y’all, most people don’t like reporters and that leads them to downplay their influence. Then they don’t understand media rules about information gathering, sourcing and “fairness”. Once you understand what most reporters will challenge, where their weak points are and what they accept as facts, you can control your message.
    In this dispute, the media was already aligned with owners. Why? Because players have transitory careers. The League is more permanent. Media companies are dependent upon the League to produce content so that they can distribute it to their viewers and readers. Plus, many media people, like most Americans, resents the large salaries of players on the sly. They see these semi-educated, urban individuals pulling in millions, with often poor attitudes and it bothers them. They like what the players can do, don’t particularly like the players because their daily interactions with them can be demeaning and difficult. While they have the same issues with organizations, those organizations are more permanent, and there is more fracturing as far finding sources. So, media members have to suck it up and deal, or they can find snitches to feed them info.
    It’s much more difficult to crack the players’ circle.
    Anyway, Hunter should have drilled the message about the 50/50 split instead of assuming that people would understand that. He should have drilled the message about the shorter time span, the total revenues made. He should have asked for a full PUBLIC airing of the total finances for all teams, including all salaries taken by owners, high level executives and family members.
    He should have requested transparent negotiations, because then, if the media ignored the info, he could accuse them of bias and FORCE them to examine the documents.
    Instead, he’s preferred back room deals which always favor the more powerful group, and he’s seen the media as antagonists instead of mere tools.
    Stern sees media members as tools. He uses them, then discards them until he needs them again. They can’t be his adversaries because they lack they cache.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    cachet

  • HoHum

    Cache also works…..they lack the reserve of information/memory to become more than a box of tools. Ken Berger and Howard Beck are two exceptions….

    From the beginning Hunter was arrogant, and most recently operating without enough poilling of the players — not only arrogant but autocratic. It backfired on him.

    Lets see if the courtroom battle today can help end the war.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Allen you should dress up as billy hunter and do a youtube presentation too the public.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Damn……AllenP. You do a better job explaining the entire lockout and negotiating better than 99% of the media.

  • Heals

    Yeah I heard him on the BSReport Huey, Stern too. He wss anything but retarded. You gotta listen with your ears not your feelings. BHunter talked about 1) How he and Cuban agree on plan without a cap at all – small market owners won’t have it
    2) NBAPA has agreed to a flexible BRI split between 53-47 and 50-50 depending on whether losses continue or gains are made
    3) Owners have already acknowledged that a 53-47 split covers their current losses and sets them up properly going forward
    4) Stern made it apparent to BHunter 3+ years ago that owners were well perpared to miss entire season to forever alter the system
    5) Contracts are not currently guaranteed – teams just know that if they don’t guarantee cash another will
    6) 50-50 isn’t that at all – owners get I think 300mil upfront before the split
    7) Owners are pushing for the CBA to be 7 years long, NBAPA wants a shorter one so that if things actually are as dire as the owners profess they will greater concessions

  • http://www.slamonline.com Nick Tha Quick

    All the lockout talk aside, SLAMfam gets real predictable sometimes. Current Laker faces unsubstantiated stories/rumors/book accounts that reflect negatively on his character, Eboy/NBK/JTaylor quickly pounce and slam him without any hesitation/evidence. Seed/Lakeshow/other Laker apologists come in and defend. And vice versa, when current Heat is in similar situation. Sometimes, it’s just like the Dems and GOP in here. Supporting a faulty cause solely to oppose the other side. Y’all better than that!

  • Heals

    Funny how a riff between Fish and Hunter is getting pub, but everyone just brushed aside the true essence of Arisons’s tweet. This has eveything to do with the fact that Stern and Owners can use NBAtv, ESPN etc. as their media outlets whenever they have a point to make. NBAPA and BHunter aren’t as fortunate. You think ESPN is going to delve into a possible chasm between owners when they have a contract with Commish Mussolini and the league…

  • Heals

    8) Right after NFL lockout was resolved the signed an extremely lucrative new TV contract with their networks to take advantage of the newly agreed to CBA. Hunter is well aware Stern and the owners are going to do the exact same thing as soon as the new CBA is agreed upon…

  • LA Huey

    Heals, I’m not talking about what he’s negotiating. From all that I’ve read, it appears the owners are trying to pull one over on the union and the players want to take a stand. I understood his negotiating points and stance. I was referring to his use of the media. There was a segment minute there where he was asking Simmons why he wasn’t contacted to give the union’s side of the story. Simmons replied with “What am I going to do? Turn you down?” Simmons has a large enough audience for his podcast to be a platform worth trying to use.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    What the hell does that have to do with the lockout? Wrong page.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    what are you talking about Nick, show me where I slammed anyone.

  • LA Huey

    Also, Simmons asked why he didn’t try to use the superstars to get out the message and he responded with basically “The delivery might get screwed up”. He’s conceded the media war. Which I guess it’s alright because the players will probably get the blame regardless.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Heals
    Truth to the fullest.
    Nobody likes to discuss this, but it’s the big freaking elephant in the room.
    I cover cops. I know that cops make stuff up. I know that they break the law. But, the are the official resource for information and a far more constant and reliable source of information about crime than the general public.
    So, the police version of events is going to get in the paper, period. Now, I try to add the public’s version and find out what I can on my own, but sometimes that doesn’t happen. So, the police, with their readily accessible information and helpful department’s dedicated to answering my questions, gets a larger ability to control message.
    Same thing is true with the NBA.
    NBA teams have media departments. They have people whose job it is to interact with reporters and help them do their jobs. Players are sweaty, half-naked giants who typically do not want to be bothered and can rarely hide their disdain.
    It’s obvious who is winning the messaging war.
    Hunter should have known better. He spent all that time preparing players, zero time developing a media strategy that attacked Stern.
    Why allow Stern the moral high ground? Has Stern shown a willingness to be open? Why not push the issue of allowing the public, who pays for tickets and STADIUMS, to view the teams books. Then, when the League refused, you can raise that issue as you debate finances. And if the League agreed, you can question journalists about why they aren’t following up on certain information as you follow up yourself.
    It’s asinine. It’s not that Billy Hunter is stupid, it’s that he doesn’t respect the media and he mistakenly believes that just because you don’t respect someone means they don’t have power over you. That is dumb.

  • Heals

    My bad Huey I’m just getting fed up with people bashing the Union/Hunter based on misinformation/understanding. I’m just not sure what else he can do. ESPN wants to cover CPaul on Family Feud or KD playing flag football than presenting the legitimate issues a the heart of the Union’s stance. Coincidence I think not, it’s quite convenient to show players on game shows or playing around while the “fans” are missing games or arena workers aren’t getting paid to make a subtle (but highly bias POV) statement. Please read JWhitlock’s last 4-5 pieces Huey. Obviously he has an angle to work but the info is telling. These same owners (many of which are Repub’s) are looking for extravagant handouts from the NBAPA, but when it comes to the rest of nation they vote contradictory to that ideal (i.e. college loans, welfare, etc.). It’s just hypocricy in it’s lowest form…

  • Heals

    At least I got a laugh out of the eigth point being turned into a “shades-wearing” emoticon…

  • LA Huey

    Heals, I’m weary about reading anything written by Whitlock. I’ve known him since his KC Star days, and his integrity has seemed compromised for awhile.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I agree, but I read it.
    He doesn’t offer any concrete proof to the Fisher allegations though. And he always resorts to insults when challenged.

  • http://www.slamonline.com UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER

    ALLEN FOR YET ANOTHER EPIC WIN…. AND COSIGN HUEY ON WHITLOCK, DONT READ ANYTHING HE WRITES ANYMORE.

  • http://wikipedia.org Eddie1

    Really? I hope D-Fish and them bums at the NBPA have beef. Just fall in line and get this ish done. If ur Lebron u Lebron. If you Eddie House u ain’t lebron. Mid-level players getting paid high six figures is more than reasonable. Ya herddd??

  • Clos1881

    It’s splits on both sides within the owners side too their are some owners who would talk the 52 I can’t see how anyone can call the players greedy when they have made concessions on everything and the owners haven’t gave sh*t. Most of these teams that lose money don’t know how to run a franchise ie michael Jordan donald sterling ect ect

  • SWIFTboy

    Appreciate the insight Allenp

  • http://nbasobrietystrike.blogspot.com/ CoolWhip

    Reports indicate Billy Hunter stormed out; Stern laughed maniacally; Jesus wept :(
    There’s nothing wrong with reading wild speculation about the NBA if that’s the only news to read. There is no season, no off-season acquisitions, and no pre-season, so feel free to occupy your time as you wish. That’s why I’ve began to drink (see my site)

  • CubicleWorker

    Allenp, I’m preyy sure the $600M that owners take off the top are directly related to the players private jets, 5 star hotels and meals, luxurious busses etc etc. It seems reasonable that that amount comes off the top before BRI

  • CubicleWorker

    Anyway, what have I been saying all along? 4 year (5 year birds), 50/50 split, reduced MLE. I’ve said since the summer that was the best deal possible and that if the players dont take it they’ll take a worse deal… I wish I couldve gotten some nice Vegas odds and made some $ on this lockout ishh

  • Chukaz

    One of the superstars have to step up and put pressure on the owners. The owners asked for ridiculous things so that when the players decided to concede some things they’d concede more. Kobe should come out and say the players want like 65% of BRI. If they miss the whole season and a court makes a ruling the owners could loose 10s of billions of dollars. I guarantee you they’d be with a 52-48 split

  • http://slamonline.com Ugh

    Doesn’t ‘good standing’ refer to a union member having paid their dues, and with Billy Hunter being an employee of the union doesn’t that make him exempt from being in good standing?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    So Cubicle
    You’re saying that the majority of the expenses comes off the top?
    And players only get 57 percent of BRI.
    So the remaining 43 percent, exactly what does that pay for?
    You have no idea. NONE.
    You don’t know staff costs. You don’t any costs associated with running an NBA team. Previously, you pointed to the luxury hotels and what not as proof that the owners couldn’t be making money. Now, you’re saying that’s paid for with the off top money.
    So where is the other money going? the $1.7 billion they owners get from BRI?
    LOL.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    The bottom line is the NBA has refused to release it’s financial information for a reason, and it’s not because it’s worried about anybody gaining a business advantage for a rival league.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    ^ Which should be obvious if you use your brain.

  • LA Huey

    ^We prefer to use insults and a misguided sense of justice around here instead of that gray matter you’re talking about.

  • http://google.com JP Newton

    @Allenp the question I have is at one point does a media member become a martyr and cover the whole story? The way I see it as with any big business there are significant tax breaks with any expense that you have, ie players salaries, hotels, flights, etc … it is very easy to cover the same thing, so why doesn’t anyone speak up? Espn is on 24hrs information is widely available why not have an occupy the NBA campaign???

  • http://google.com JP Newton

    at what point

  • Heals

    JP, ugghh it was close, Dan Patrick took a couple steps in that direction today, but still wouldn’t venture fully down the road to perdition. I dunno man, Yahoo doesn’t have a network, other than the obvious I’m as stumped as you are. At the end of the day (thanks ESPN) much like the issues afflicting the nation as whole I think the blame is on the masses. The information is out there people need to take it in and need stop gobbling up everything they hear from popular/powerful faces on TV…

  • http://dodgers.com Joey E.

    millionaires vs billionaires. people everywhere are penny pinching and these greedy a-holes are keeping us from enjoying some NBA basketball. im beyond frustrated about this stupid lockout. soooooo unfair

  • Heals

    For example this competitve balance BS. Cle, Char, NO are all cities with real character, but they’re not LA, Mia and NY. If an owner buys a team in a favorable market it should be worth more than one in Mil, just common sense. So it is asinine to expect each market to be on equal terms. Secondly if there isn’t nuance to the financial structure then lesser GM’s have effectively closed the gap on their smarter more experienced counterparts. On points like these if Stern/owmners continue to tout this people need to realize it isn’t true regardless of how/where the message is received. Look at how the leaders of the “miss the year” owners have run their teams.
    Dan Gilbert – overpaid the wrong vets, wouldn’t trade Hickson for STAT, maybe held on to Brown too long, loses LBJ cause of these things so now he wants to change the system. But what if LBJ stayed cause the squad was legit then little Gilligan wants no part of this lockout
    Sarver – routinely traded worthwhile draft picks for cash to avoid a luxury tax on a squad capable of selling out nightly, refused to give Kerr’s staff raised for overachieving so he ousts Kerr and company, got nothing for STAT knowing for 2 years he was gone, continualy nickle and dimed (I know not my cash) for a team that was usually 1 asset away from getting over the top
    PAllen – makes irrational decisions on proven GM’s over personal issues and chance injuries, has fans that pack the house every night regardless of team record but somehow can’t turn profit!?!?, refuses to acknowledge the impact injuries have had to his teams potential success

  • Heals

    Funny thing is though (even Hunter mentioned it), the players know more about the L then the fans or owners realize. When negotiating they were the ones calling out the specific ridiculous contracts that hampered teamA or the refusal by teamB to play a certain player more only to see their team fall off. Don’t think for one second that every player associated with the negotiations has opinions about these “miss-it” owners and word spreads fast. Sure most will retire within 5-7 years, but stigmas remain. I know they’ll still be able to lure the occassional guys looking for that big payday, but Gilbert wears a Scarlet letter in the players’ eyes and will as long as he’s an owner…

  • Heals

    If your a fan of LAL, Mia, NY, Bos, Chi, Dal, OKC, Orl, SA, LAC you CAN’T in any way, shape or form be against the players since your ownwers have already agreed to 52.5-47.5…

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Not to mention PAllen is the dummy that signed off on drafting GO over KD.

  • CubicleWorker

    My god allenp you are thick in the head. The money off the top is new to me, after looking into it it makes tons of logical sense. I went off a couple times with long f$king lists of what the owners expenses are. It’s not like they are splitting $1.7B between 30 of them.

  • CubicleWorker

    The owners haven’t released their financial statements to the public because it’s not the publics f-ing business. If NBA franchises were publicly listed then that information would become available. They’re not, so the financials aren’t. The owners don’t really care about PR. They care about money, which is what’s coming to them

  • CubicleWorker

    Also, ALL of these issues should have been behind closed doors. Hunter should have prohibited players speaking in the media just as Stern has for the owners. This should have all been settled behind closed doors because none of it really matters to any of us except we don’t have bball.

  • Justin

    JTaylor, it’s pretty easy to look back at a draft choice years later isn’t it? At the time, Oden was the consensus number 1 pick with pretty much everybody. Just like everyone likes to look at the Michael Jordan/Sam Bowie thing. Back then, it was thought you needed a big man plus people forget that they had just drafted Clyde Drexler the year before.

  • http://twitter.com/#!/MichaelJR_NZ Michael NZ

    #DEALorSTFU

  • Wendy

    Great discussion here, respect to allenp.

    BTW… yes, the media, Bill Simmons included, are biased toward the owners. They just want the games back, no matter what.

    Personally, I don’t really miss the league – yet. They should sort out a lot of other things first (like refereeing) before becoming attractive to me again.

    And Whitlock is a joke. Can’t believe that his “story” has such an effect. This guy is only out for provocation and clicks.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I told you about the off top money at least two weeks ago.
    Hilarious. Now you didn’t know.
    That is crazy funny.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Many Bbs teams play in taxpayer funded arenas that were paid for through tax credits and other means. Some even have deals where they get direct payments.
    The public had moreof a right to their information than you think.
    But this was about winning a media war. If a man claims he is losing hundreds of millions you should ask to see tue books. That is media 101. If he refuses than you refuse to take his claims on faith particularly when there are obvious reasons to doubt him.
    nobody ever doubted the owners would win that was one of my first observations. The question was how much the players would lose.
    You are funny though. Your rationale and justifications for supporting the owners have shifted and changed mainly so you can avoid stating the real reason why you are on their side.

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    Heals and Allenp bringing the truth to this comments section. Some don’t like it, so they take the blue pill. lol

  • LA Huey

    “The owners haven’t released their financial statements to the public because it’s not the publics f-ing business.”
    Well, it’s good knowing it’s my effing business to know every player’s NBA salary.

  • CubicleWorker

    I didn’t acknowledge the money off the top mainly because it didn’t add to my rebuttal hah, Also because it hadn’t been verified. Now that I see that those $600M are actually directly related to player expenses it definitely makes sense that it comes off the top.

  • CubicleWorker

    I’ve never changed my reasons, my reasons for supporting them all along are that player salaries are inflated and a drop from 57 to 50 would bring them back to a reasonable level. Realistically the players should be at 52-53% and the next CBA (in 2021 or w.e) will reflect that. The owners want to make more money for now and they have the power to do it. I’ve also said that what’s fair or not fair doesn’t matter, it’s what the players can get, 50/50 is what they will get. I want to see basketball and it’s annoying watching these players with minimal education trying to negotiate something they know little about.

  • CubicleWorker

    Bill Simmons was for the players up until about 2 or 3 weeks ago and he’s just fed up with the whole thing.

  • CubicleWorker

    And honestly Allenp, do you think you’d be able to interpret fully audited financial statements?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I have to interpret fully audited financial statements regularly for my job.
    Which involves covering the finances of cities and parishes/counties.
    So yes, I’m quite confident that I would be able to understand depreciation, revenues, expenditures and the like, since I have to do it multiple times every year to write about the individual budgets in the areas I cover.
    And it’s funny that you’re bothered by the players’ education and their attempts to negotiate.
    Funny, but not surprising since it validates what I already believed.
    You’re bothered that they have the audacity to demand more, or even question the owners about how their “businesses” are run. That’s not their place, right.
    Yeah, I had that one pegged a long time ago.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    And not acknowledging pertinent information that directly rebuts your argument is called intellectual dishonesty.
    Thanks for clearing that up too.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    I like everybody else just want this lockout to end, however I think that it is funny that people get so riled up about this. The whole negotiation process is just what capitalism is all about. The capitalists (owners) flex their muscles and the workers will at some point fall in line and accept whatever crumbs the capitalists throw their way. Unfortunately this is what is going to happen, would be better if we had a revolution. In this case; top talent taking their talents to Europe and China and signing deals without get-out clauses. The exact same thing is happening at a much larger scale in the American (and pretty much all other) society right now and probably at your working place as we speak. So really people don’t get to riled up about this just because it is basketball-related, capitalist are giving it to workers on a much larger scale all the time and really this is what should warrant an outcry, not a bunch of millionaires getting the bad end of a good deal. Anyways this outcome is to be expected when you send the missing Ninja Turtle to negotiate with a proven lawyer and businessman. Just like Master Splinter, Stern is teaching Fisher lessons.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    LZ
    The reason why I am riled up is because it is representative of the larger problem, and yet people are clearly okay with that.
    That is troubling.
    And people are silly if they think Fisher is “negotiating” with Stern. What about the economist they interviewed on NBA.com, or the lawyer Kessler who was key to the negotiations?
    These are the people advising Fisher and Hunter, who are just the public faces for the union.
    What is happening is the discussion is being turned into a debate over which side performed better at the “boardroom” game, as if that game wasn’t rigged from the jump. People are looking for a way to justify the wholesale r*pe being performed by the owners, and thus they are seizing on the idea that the owners were just better prepared and better negotiators.
    That’s BS.
    The owners are winning because they employ the players, and the loss of games and revenue is only of minimal impact to them. Simply put, the owners don’t need basketball for revenue, the players do. Thus, the owners can wait longer to get the best deal, with the only drawbacks being things other than economics. Every owner is worth more than $100 million, easily. They could not play basketball for five years and still be filthy rich. In contrast, most players will be struggling seriously if they don’t play for six months.
    Same is true in the real world. Companies only make concessions that still meet their economic goals. They aren’t concerned about the true wellbeing of workers or customers or anybody else. They are concerned with making more money and they only make concessions if they don’t impede on that goal in the long term and short term.
    That is basic capitalism, and it’s shocking that so many people are upset when the hammer drops on them, yet cheer for the hammer to drop on someone else. It’s either blatant hypocrisy, or blatant stupidity.
    That’s why I get “riled up.”
    People should be better than that.

  • LA Huey

    Ninja Turtle? You’re obviously confusing Derek with Al Harrington?

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    ^ You’re both right. Derrick Fisher and Al Harrington are both Ninja Turtles. The 2011 Ninja Turtles starting line-up:
    1. Derek Fisher
    2. Mo Evans
    3. Richard Jefferson
    4. Al Harrington
    Guy with hockey mask: Steve Nash

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Allenp; No doubt it is representative of a problem of far bigger proportions. I believe that was my exact point in the prior post. What I don’t get it is that it takes the cancellation of a game (admittingly a great game that we all love, but still just a game) to get people to stand up and take notice that something could be wrong. I agree whole-heartedly with your ‘That is basic capitalism…., or blatant stupidity’ line. I just tried to point out what I consider the stupidity in that the NBA lockout make people who would otherwise never doubt the system take notice (not talking about you Allen, it seems you have it figured out), when they themselves are probably being fcked over as we speak by their boss or the so-called leaders of their country. You are right that the boardroom game is rigged, but again that shouldn’t be an excuse – considering the bigger picture, the whole game is rigged – but it is not like the players don’t have the money to hire aid (you for one seem to be a good option) that could at least look eye-to-eye with Stern & co. at the negotiation table. I don’t know about the lawyer or economist you refer to as I really have not wanted to use my time getting into this whole lockout thing in details, but of course I figured that the players had some kind of professional advice, although they seem to be lacking the right advice when it comes to the whole media part (where is Worldwide Wes when you need him…). But in some way or another Fisher finds himself at that table so yes he is indeed negotiating with Stern and whoever is advicing him he is the only player at that table and thereby a referencepoint in the negotiations. Like you said people should be better than this, exactly why I think it is stupid that a game and the rich arguing with the wealthy over the money of the people is what gets an reaction instead of the exact same structures that are so evident in the world. People should step back and look at their own situation and think about who is giving it to them and that is what they should worry about first and foremost. I know I do. Anyways there is no need to go on the defensive as I have a feeling we pretty much agree on these issues.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Bogut is Casey Jones, not Nash. It’s easier to imagine himgoing to war with sports equipment.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    *he is STILL the only player…

  • http://thetroyblog.com LA Huey

    Sorry, Teddy. the 12:50 comment was me.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Nah we agree.
    I was just pointing out why I talk about it so much. Because I’m honestly a little disturbed that instead of people being on the side of the folks getting shafted, they are cheering for the shafters.
    When people at a regular job get shafted most people seem to understand and sympathize, at least that’s what I thought. But maybe I’ve been blind all along because I remember when those Wisconsin unions were fighting for their rights people were cheering for them to be crushed as well.
    Paul Krugman wrote an article about the change in American mindset where people want those employees with good deals to lose their status instead of demanding the same status for all workers. And how that plays into the hands of the rich.

  • dcom

    @ Allenp Can you please provide a link to the article in question. I dont want to get caught up reading them all.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    And that is indeed disturbing… Sad, really. Anyways it seems that many people around the world are starting to take the baby-steps towards a change in mindset, it is not going to come easily of course, but at least it is a start.

  • Heals

    Fingers crossed Lz, keep those fingers crossed…

  • http://yahoo Fan

    This is a question for Eboy. I’m curious. Why are Fisher and Hunter F****ng dummies? What is your dissatisfaction with the two? Who do you think would be more effective?

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