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Tuesday, November 29th, 2011 at 9:40 am  |  361 responses

Shaquille O’Neal: Kobe Bryant is the Greatest Laker Ever


Shaq continues to promote his new book, and tells KTLA that his former teammate and nemesis Kobe Bryant is the greatest Los Angeles Laker of all time: “Here’s one area of disagreement between Shaquille O’Neal and Kobe Bryant that won’t further fuel the divide between them: debating who deserves to be named the all-time greatest Laker. Bryant has long insisted that Jerry West holds that honor for his role as both a player and a general manager. But O’Neal counters that the recognition should go to Bryant himself. ‘Based on what he’s done, he’s probably the greatest Laker of all time,’ O’Neal said of Bryant on KTLA Monday to promote his book, ‘Shaq Uncut.’ ‘If he gets another championship, he’ll tie with Kareem. That will put him up there.’ … ‘It’s a different kind of great,’ O’Neal said of Bryant. ‘He had the skills to be an all-around player. I’m just a big man so I just do big-man stuff. I’m just in the big-man category.’”

(H/T: LA Times)

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  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Remarkable how ignorant these two fu*king clowns are in respect to what Magic Johnson did for the Lakers. To be clear for all your sickening morons that will come around saying “Shaq knows what’s up” and weren’t born before 1995….Magic MADE the Lakers “THE LAKERS”. They were always successful and had great players beofre him…but Magic took them to levels they never saw before and won at an incredible pace. Look up how many Finals Magic appeared in then shoot yourself when you try and justify Kobe’s place ahead of him. A fu*king shame. Even with the fantastic players Magic ran with, Magic was always the focus and stood head and shoulders above all of them. That says more about his place in the history of the Lakers than Kobe. Kobe was second fiddle to Shaq until the end of their days together. Magic was never second fiddle to Kareem or Worthy.

  • Tom

    Thank you Eboy!!

  • http://www.twitter.com/_dfrance dfrance21

    Eboy I agree with all your points, but why you so d@mn angry!? lol.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Wayno

    preach it

  • http://www.lacuevacrosscountry.com Slick Nick Da Ruler

    http://hoopspeak.com/2011/11/mystery-man-the-magic-man/

    Go to chuuuuch, and thank the heavens for Earvin.

  • http://www.lacuevacrosscountry.com Slick Nick Da Ruler

    Glad to see you again Eboy, and thanks for the Magic love!

  • Justin

    I agree with pretty much 98% of what you’re saying Eboy except for a couple things. Magic was second fiddle to Kareem in the first few years they were there. It wasn’t until Pat Riley became coach that he was asked to do more scoring. Maybe they’re talking about overall talent as the greatest Laker ever? If they are, Kobe has an argument. Btw I was born in 1973 so I grew up watching the Lakers, Celtics, and Bulls. Kobe is a better on the ball defender, scorer, and post player and an argument could be made that Magic had a lot more players to get the ball to to get some assists. The third option on his team was James Worthy after Kareem and himself and with Byron Scott and Michael Cooper able to hit shots as well, I’d say it’s easier than hoping to get assists from Odom and Fisher.

  • Waggle

    @eboy. Yeah, Shaq and Kobe are f-ing clowns… Riiiggghhhhttt.

  • cramzy

    Its not that crazy to suggest Kobe could be the goat laker. Magic went to 9 finals, won 5. Kobe has gone to 7, won 5. They both had all time great big men. Why cant he be the greatest laker? Not saying he is, but its not crazy talk.

  • kobesBESTfriend

    81 points…nuff said!!!!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Look to Magic’s rookie season and his Finals performance when Kareem couldn’t play. That says it all. dfrance, the reason I’m so damn angry? It’s because a guy like Shaq, even when he’s trying to sell books, should have respect for who came before him. It’s expected when an idiot with no knowledge of the game speaks out of turn, but a dude like him, a legend in his own right, should know better. BTW, Magic was facing off against one of the greatest teams of all-time as he was winning titles too with Larry’s Celts, so there’s that too. He was beating up on some mid-level Pacers squad or some overachieving Nets team to get his titles.

  • http://www.gil1906.com Pve_2

    It’s not that crazy to suggest something controversial like Kobe is the greateast Laker when the person suggesting it is trying to sell a book.

  • Ali

    WOW! Shaq’s name in another SLAM heading… yawn!

  • tomtom

    Yeah eboy! Tell em man! How dare they have opinions…after all they are just two legendary basketball players DONT THEY KNOW YOU YOU ARE!? I can’t beleive that they didn’t seek appoval from you before opening there big, dumb nba title-winning mouths.

  • http://www.optimabbc.be Max

    Kobes career aint even over yet.

  • Tofu

    eboy again…….*yawn*

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    tomtom…..this is the forum it’s being discussed. Shaq and Kobe aren’t coming here to comment. Morons like you do. That’s why it’s so fun to get you idiots riled up.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Shaq is just stupid. Flat out stupid.

  • IAMORANGE4EVER

    Magic is without a doubt in my mind the greatest Laker ever. Magic epitomized Showtime. Not only is he the greatest Laker ever, but you could argue he’s one of the greatest to ever play the game. If not for HIV taking him away from the game he loved, his hoops legacy would have been even more decorated than it is now. In my honest opinion, if HIV doesn’t take Magic away, Dr. Buss reloads which gives Magic another title run as the leader of the Lakers, thus Magic would have more rings, and MJ less.

  • tomtom

    Riled up? You got it all wrong im not calling people f’ing clowns and stomping my feet. I’m just pointing out that it is entirely possible that you opinion isn’t the be all and end all.

  • purity

    Eboy – read Eckhart Tolle’s “A New Earth”. Then you’ll too find better things to do than inflate your imaginary self’s ego by getting keyboards riled up. Good luck bud!

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    *peeks in…. Notices E going off again on a Laker thread….rolls eyes due to imminent mention of James name and the inevitable comparisons….bows out…. Grabs potato chips*.

  • far

    Cmon now. Magic. The only rookie to get a finals mvp trophy. Played all 5 positions and got what? Like 44 and 17? That’s fucking insane. Not only is he the greatest laker but I think he’s the 2nd best of all time in the game

  • http://www.twitter.com/_dfrance dfrance21

    Man, but Kobe ain’t even better than Lebron tho!

  • robb

    I’m gonna say this once again I’m sorry if I’m repetitive: Magic Johnson is the GREATEST. Kobe is the BEST PLAYER. There’s a difference. Greatness goes beyond your performance on the court. I’m a big Kobe fan but he’s not the greatest Laker ever, that’s Magic’s spot.

  • Bt

    @eboy – head and shoulders above on offense but the man was a world class defensive liability. that said I’d still put him above kobe at this point but I would put Kareem over magic

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    dfrance21: pandora’s box.. opened.

  • Mburb321

    lol sounds like your the only one riled up Eboy..9:48 am is a little early to be blowing off some steam. Magic still has that title but beans career isnt over, I dont think him moving up the scoring list will change that but another title could.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    I’m sorry but Kobe has never lead a team passed anything resembling Bird’s Celtics. Or the Pistons. He led the Lakers passed Orlando and Boston (an injured, beat-up Boston) Magic is the Greatest, and Best Laker ever. Kobe is the most “skilled” – but he was never “better” than Magic on the court, definitely more skilled, but not better, that is supposed to lead to wins.

  • http://www.sonichurricane.com Guile

    kobe’s career is not even over yet, e boy needs his daily medication every time he opens a lakers related thread, i mean, it’s the same old rant everyday ” is better then WAHH WAHH , kobe is a sidekick WAHHH excuses, excuses, calling every lakers fan a kobetard/fanboys WAHHHH” your antics is getting old, e boy.

  • Justin

    robb makes the point pretty well, sort of what I’ve been saying. Overall player, Kobe is probably the better player. And yes, Magic was playing against one of the greatest teams of all time. But he was also PLAYING ON one of the greatest teams of all time too. I’m not saying one is overall better than the other because there are obviously great arguments to be made for both sides. I’m just saying it’s not so cut and dry. And Eboy, I don’t believe that Shaq saying Kobe is the greatest is disrespecting anbyody that came before him. He’s stating his opinion. That’s like saying you’re disrespecting Jerry West by saying the greatest is Magic.

  • tomtom

    No love for Smush Parker on this topic?

  • Eric

    Kobe is the greatest Laker of all time common 81 points fools

  • Justin

    One game of 81 points makes him the greatest ever. I don’t think it’s the rest of us that are the fools with a statement like that

  • bigA

    @tomtom

    what about the great K. “stonehands” Brown?

  • DieselMechanic

    Shaq is right. I think this is a pretty obvious choice.

  • http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7290143/it-just-money Allenp

    Magic was second fiddle when he first came to the Lakers.
    When he dropped 42 in the Finals his rookie year that was in a series where Kareem had been going BANANAS for every other game before his injury.
    Magic had growing pains like everybody else. I still believe he was better than Kobe (easily) but I can’t agree with the idea that he was head and shoulders above Kareem when he first got to the team.

  • http://slamonline.com Tae

    That 81 point game was unreal, but i think when its all said n done Kobe will pass Jordan in all time scoring, get another championship or two n he will be tha best Laker ever

  • http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7290143/it-just-money Allenp

    If you say Kobe was more “skilled” you basically mean at scoring.
    You don’t mean at passing. Or rebounding. Or understanding how to run a half court set or a fast break.
    You don’t mean at picking out mismatches and milking them. You probably mean at dribbling though.
    Magic had tons of skills that Kobe has failed to grasp and he had them as a rookie. People are creaming themselves about Kobe’s “post” game, but have you watched what Magic did to people on the block?
    Magic is better than Kobe. Period. Magic also had better teammates than Kobe, period.

  • Leonitu$

    NICOLE SIMPSON CAN’T RAP!

  • http://redoftoothandclaw.ca/ niQ

    What? It’s not Luke Walton? Rubbish!

  • http://theurbangriot.com The NUPE

    I’d take Magic over Kobe anyday. Kobe is arguably a better scorer, Magic just didn’t need to as much and was more about distributing to make the entire team better. Outside of that, I’d clearly take Magic over Kobe in every other skill category.

    However, I can see why Shaq would say kobe is the greatest Laker ever – a) he’s trying to sell books b) he wants to show that despite his personal issues with a player, he can be ‘objective’ (for his broadcasting), and c) it has us talking about this which helps reasons a and b.

  • jessdogg

    Magic over Kobe and its not even close.

  • http://www.offthebackboard.wordpress.com OTB

    Magic wasn’t second fiddle to Kareem early on, what? Kareem averaged 31 and 12 during the 1980 playoffs, and was the leader in points and rebounds in almost every game except game 4. Magic was awarded MVP because he led them to an improbable win in Game 6 by starting at center and leading the way, but had Kareem been healthy, he would have gotten it. Magic was – oh my – kind of like Kobe was with Shaq early on. Yes, he is a more skilled player overall, but Kobe’s primary responsibilities were to be a good all around player who can score at will, and he did exactly just that. As for Kobe being “second fiddle” to Shaq, the man can only be classified as “second fiddle” during the 2000 playoffs (in which he, like Magic, saved the Lakers from losing in a crucial game – in this case, in game 4 against the Pacers). After 2000, Kobe was 1A, not #2. Bryant averaged 29, 7, 6, while averaging something ridiculous like 35, 8, 8 against a sweep of the San Antonio Spurs. In 2002, he averaged 26, 5 and 6, and in 2003 (though they lost), he averaged 30 for the season (even with Shaq there) and 32/5/5 during the playoffs. So no, those aren’t second fiddle numbers, those are MVP caliber numbers – its hard to get the MVP even with those numbers when there is a legendary center playing with you that scores at an easier rate and is ahead of you – gasp – kind of like Kareem!

  • http://www.offthebackboard.wordpress.com OTB

    BTW, I’m not saying that Kobe is better than Magic, I just get irked when people act as if Kobe didn’t contribute anything to those chapionship teams. Based on their prime seasons alone, this would be a fun debate. 2006 Kobe on your team or 87 Magic?

  • http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7290143/it-just-money Allenp

    I think that the biggest different is that Shaq and Kareem were clearly at different points in their careers.
    Kareem was on the tail end of his prime when Magic got there, while Shaq was honestly just hitting his stride in 1996. Kobe had Shaq for Shaq’s entire prime, and only got three rings and four finals appearances. Granted, Kobe came out of high school, but he was still getting starter minutes by like year three.
    Then again, Magic also had James Worthy, Byron Scott and Michael Cooper, so that’s important.

  • http://yahoo darrell

    magic is the best laker of alltimes he could score 81 if he was a ball hog

  • http://www.offthebackboard.wordpress.com OTB

    @nbk – So according to you, 3 of Duncan’s titles should be slighted when comparing him to another player historically because he won against the 8th seeded Knicks in 1999, a Nets team featuring Van Horn and Todd Mcallough as starters in 2003, and the 2007 Cavs? I’ll keep that in mind for future debates.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    No, Kobe was the second fiddle, for every title. And in 2000, Kobe had 2 games in the finals where he was literally a non-factor (series averages of 15.6 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.2 apg;) he played good in game 4 28 points, 16 in overtime, but it was nothing like Magic’s finals performance in 1980, nothing. And Magic won 5 titles, 4 as “the best player,” not 2.

  • b. angus

    i’m sorry but lebron james was the greatest laker of all timne…

  • http://www.twitter.com/_dfrance dfrance21

    To me this question has to be about more than just stats. Its nice to rattle off all those numbers but what about impact the player had on the franchise outside of rings? Magic brought that Showtime excitement to LA. I think of the Lakers and I think of Magic smiling while leading the break and dishing no look passes. I just think he left a bigger mark on the franchise than Kobe has thus far.

  • http://yahoo darrell

    magic is the best laker of alltimes he was a true laker with so much class people always try to say he played with jabar worthy scott copper but he made them players im a knick fan but to me not only was magic the best laker of alltimes he was the best player of alltimes

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I think Duncan’s place on the all-time list is pretty stable, while Kobe’s is in constant Flux.
    Duncan is the greatest Spur.
    Best power forward.
    Top ten all-time, but probably towards the bottom of the list.
    Nothing much is going to change at this point, and there are no other players at his position of power forward/center who people really compare him to.
    Kobe is still gunning for greatest two-guard of all-time, greatest laker of all time and a definite top ten slot. So there are more debates about what he did and how he did it.

  • robb

    Magic was more versatile obviously, his size and his position allowed him to do that, but Kobe’s a better player overall. Remember, overall means defense too, and Kobe is a better defender than Magic ever was.

  • ab40

    87 magic. Kobe was gunning in 06. He was making a lot of shots but he was so selfish. I don’t think any of his teammates improved that year. Kobe is aight now he was great and Magic just started regressing from his prime years so we don’t know how he would have developed. Magic should have an aterisk in all time greatest debates. If he’d have gone out losing in the first round the final years of his career his legacy would be a bit tarnished kind of like what happended to pip. Shaq has normal inteligence and knows how to get fans talking. That’s why people are going to buy his book and listen to what he says when he starts at tnt.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    OTB, do you know what a fallacy is? Or context? We are talking about the greatest Laker ever. If your going to do that, and put into consideration that they won titles. It is only logical to look at who they won titles against. Hence the comparison. Tim Duncan & San Antonio has nothing to do with this discussion.

  • http://nba.com GP23

    Kobe is the second greatest Laker of all time.. at the moment. If Kobe wins another ring, that might help him overtake Magic. Remember y’all, Kobe is the all time leading scorer for the Lakers aswell.

  • shutupallenp

    Im pretty sure were forgetting that wilt chamberlain played on the lakers and arguably hes the best basketball player not named MJ. I would put my vote that he was the best basketball player to play on the lakers, better scorer than both magic and kobe, better defender than both, better passer than kobe, and probably on the same level as magic, if not a small step behind.

  • http://www.offthebackboard.wordpress.com OTB

    NBK, let’s skip aside numbers for a second; I watched almost every game of the 2001 and 2002 Laker runs. Shaq was #1, for sure, but if you saw how the Lakers were playing, especially in 2001, Kobe did not fall into the classification of a “second fiddle”. He had stretches during the 2001 playoffs, where Shaq himself proclaimed him the best player in the league. There were games (against the Spurs IIRC) in 2001 where Kobe closed out games on the road by himself. Those teams were a great balance of in and out, and Shaq was dominant in all of those series, but Kobe was a dominant perimeter player. We all agree that T-Mac was a dominant, MVP caliber player with the Magic in 2001, 2002, correct? Well, Kobe was considered at his level, or better. Had he lead his own team, he would have been an MVP caliber player. He was “second fiddle” in the sense that he played with Shaq who was, to his credit, in his prime and dominating, but he wasn’t “second fiddle” in terms of his impact on the team.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Did I ever say Kobe was not one of the best players in the league? He was still “second fiddle” – The offense ran through Shaq. Defenses game planned around Shaq. Shaq was option (1) for the Lakers, and for Defenses to stop. The next option, option number (2), is called the “second fiddle” – It isn’t bashing Kobe, or hating, to call him a second fiddle, it’s just what he was.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Wilt played with the Lakers at the end of his career, well after he putting on the amazing scoring displays of his youth, and overall beast numbers.
    He was still very dominant, but it wasn’t like in his prime. I think that Magic’s total career was better than Wilt’s time with the Lakers in his twilight. Wilt only played five years with the Lakers, and just check out his numbers.
    I mean, to be honest, Kareem, Jerry West, Shaq and Kobe were all better LAKERS than Wilt. Not better players necessarily, but better Lakers.

  • mick

    magic all the way

  • http://www.offthebackboard.wordpress.com OTB

    And fair point on the Duncan issue. I’ll concede there.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    It sucks that players have to be judged for the careers they had, rather than what they could have done. But that’s just how it has to be. And so far, throughout Kobe’s career, he hasn’t done enough as “the leader” or whatever you want to call it, for me to say he was better or greater than Magic. Magic is (arguably) a top 5 all-time player. Kobe is (arguably) a top 10 all-time player. There is a huge difference (imo atleast).

  • http://www.twitter.com/_dfrance dfrance21

    Wilt Chamberlain on the same level as Magic as a passer? Heck and No!

  • http://slamonline.com The Black Rick Kamla

    Shaq is basically disowning the city of Los Angeles with this one.

  • AD

    if the nets dont win it (lol) i wouldnt mind seeing kobe win it again just because ………. Kobe’s career isnt over yet, he’s past his prime, and is arguably one of the best in da league still cmon son…. Magic was def popular but still Kobe has the oppurtunity to get at least 2 more rings……… plus magic aint tell us the cure to HIV yet smh

  • robb

    People tend to talk about best players based only on offense, no one talks about defense and frankly, it bothers me. Kobe is more complete than Magic because he impacts both offensively and defensively. Magic remains the greatest though.

  • far

    Dude you guys are still arguing over this? Its not even close. Magic > Kobe. Scoring leader is ONE category

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    It’s more than hard to gauge Magic as a defender. He guarded 4 positions. His own position the least (other than Center which wasn’t at all & Power Forward). Kobe was clearly a better defender, but Magic provided defensive advantages that Kobe couldn’t, just solely from his size and position on the court. But the main factor that separates the two in my opinion, are intangibles.

  • Maniac

    Hmmm interesting. Well I have Kobe #5 all time so I think it’s obvious what I think on this subject.

  • DieselMechanic

    Kobe would run circles around Earvin athletically + great leaping ability, dead-eye shooting, clutch shooting, and the most polished offensive skill-set of all time. Magic was a great leader and teammate (he has Kobe beat there and reb, ast) but Kobe is better every other way.

  • shutupallenp

    But Wilt was absolutely the best player to wear a Lakers jersey. @dfrance you do realize Wilt led the league in assists in 67-68? and if were gonna implement arbitrary rules than Kareem should be no.1

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Kobe is a better clutch player than Magic Johson? lol, sure, because you say so. — Maniac, we know how you feel about the situation, as do most Laker fans born after Magic’s career. — Shutup, Magic is the greatest passer of all-time, Wilt was just a great passing big man (when he wanted to be), totally different. And with a Laker jersey on, it should go (imo), Magic, Kobe, West, Shaq, Kareem, Baylor, Worthy, Mikan, Wilt.

  • http://myspace.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    Kobe is one of the hardest working players in the history of the NBA. No player came into the league more hyped the Kobe (maybe LeBron), but he took Brandy to the prom for crying out loud. He worked HARD to become one of the greatest scorers to ever play the game. Cant knock Kobe’s hustle. That being said Magic Johnson’s name is synonomous with the Los Angeles Lakers. Only knock on Magic was his career was pretty much cut short due to HIV, he could have easily played another 6-7 years with his skills. If you include an entire scope of their careers, seeing as they are life long Lakers, remember Magic won a HS championship and a College championship as well. Gotta go with Magic he’s a winner.

  • shutupallenp

    one more point magic wasnt a great defender, he had trouble guading smaller guards that was scotts job or worthys job, and kobe rarely guards the others teams best scorer. And how come people say magic saved the lakers? they had a storied franchise b4 magic there were wilt, jerry west and elgin baylor

  • Maniac

    I’m extremely curious. So what makes Michael Jordan greater than Magic, but Kobe not? (Watch how everyone backtracks now).

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Magic (and Bird) saved the NBA. Not the Lakers. And it was more of a resurrection.

  • http://nba.com GP23

    Ok, so this “second-fiddle” crap. Do you realize Kobe had to guard the best scorers in the 2000 finals (reggie), 2001 finals (Iverson), and 2002 finals (Kidd). Kobe guarded them solidly with his great defense. That defense helped them win those titles, proving he was just as valuable as Shaq in that three peat.

  • Maniac

    And nbk your Lakers list is questionable. Magic, Kobe, West, Shaq, Kareem, Baylor, Worthy, Mikan, Wilt. Magic and Kobe are 1A & 1B so that’s fine. I want to know how you ordered the next four because it doesn’t makes sense at first glance. Then Worthy over Mikan and Wilt? Mikan led a dynasty and Wilt brought a championship to LA as the leader (he led the defense while West led the offense); Worthy was a gloried third option.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I’m not ignoring defense. I think Magic is not as good an overall defender as Kobe, but I don’t think the gap is massive, like so many people people. That’s because I’ve always believed Kobe was only an above average defender, never an elite defender, despite all the awards.
    And I think the gap as far as playing the game the right way is pretty large, at least in my opinion. that’s the biggest fault in Kobe’s game. But it’s a glaring one.

  • shutupallenp

    6 championships against great teams, dominance over an era and the best combination of personal achievements and team achievements in nba history, now separately I think russel has better team achievements and Chamberlain has slightly better personal stats, but the combination makes MJ the GOAT

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    (Essentially) 6 Straight Titles. 5 MVP’s, 1 DPOY, 10 Time Scoring Champion, 30PPG Scoring Average (.497% from the Field), 2 Olympic Gold Medals, 1 NCAA Championship.

  • Maniac

    GP23 Kobe haters will Kobe haters until they lie in their death bed. I don’t believe in that second fiddle crap either. They just use it as an excuse to diminish Kobe’s accomplishments. Quick question to all the haters: had Baylor and West captured titles in their primes, who was second fiddle? lol.

  • http://myspace.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    Kareem a little low on that list homie…. I’ll argue Kareem is 3rd best after Magic and Kobe… ALL DAY

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Maniac, Honestly I didn’t really put much into the tail end of that list. I just gave Worthy the nod because he played longer and won 4 titles. But really, if I delved into it, Mikan, Worthy, & Wilt could all change places.

  • http://myspace.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    unless u know another 40 year old that will drop 20 and 10 on your head

  • shutupallenp

    Please dont take anything away from james worthy he was the finisher on the showtime lakers, the same way i believe Mchale was the work horse for the celtics. I almost forgot about Mikan.
    @allenp, i agree with you Kobe is not the great defender hes hyped up to be
    @GP23 he didnt guard iverson, if he did he didnt do it well and he had shaq behind him to clean up his mistakes, kidd wasnt the biggest offensive threat and he didnt shut down reggie miller

  • http://www.twitter.com/_dfrance dfrance21

    When you’re getting triple and quadruple teamed all game long and you make a conscious effort to pass, you’re gonna rack up assists. And you can’t base passing skills off assists alone. That’s like saying the person that leads the league in steals is an elite defender.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Kobe did not guard Iverson past game 1 of the 2001 finals. And he got absolutely TORCHED by Iverson in that game. Kobe did his thing against Reggie though, but that’s really just chasing him around, Reggie didn’t really create off the dribble. And “second fiddle” is referring to offense, there is no “second fiddle” on defense, that doesn’t make any sense.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Worthy was only the third option because he played with Magic and Kareem. Lol. Dude was the number one pick! Mikan played before the game truly advanced. I mean, come on now. I would put Wilt above Mikan even with his short tenure. Wilt got West his only ring. Wilt put up great numbers, just not on the same level as his earlier numbers.
    Magic was better at understanding how to play basketball as a team game than Kobe. Kobe is clearly the superior overall scorer. Magic has the advantage on the block. Magic is a better passer in every situation, fast break or half court. Kobe is the better defender, but not by a huge margin. Magic was just a clutch, even if his scoring aresnal was smaller, he got it done with what he had. He clearly took his game to another level in big moments.
    Mainly, he maximized the talent around him AND he made that talent meld.
    I don’t think Kobe does that, despite all his gifts, talents and hard work.

  • http://nba.com GP23

    And, correct me if I’m wrong… but didn’t Jerry West go the Finals 8 times before winning a single championship??? Kobe has been 7 times and won on 5 occasions. (Im sorry if i’m mistaken).

  • http://www.slamonline.com UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER

    ID LIKE TO GIVE A SHOUTOUT TO ELGIN BAYLOR.

  • http://myspace.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    Kobe guarded Iverson for the last game I think after he sh*tted on Tyronn Lue the whole series

  • Maniac

    6 championship against great teams? lol. Jordan never beat a team as defensively good as the 2010 Celtics. MVP’s are subjective though he deserved them all and probably more. Jordan doesn’t get six rings without Pippen. You guys are all naming awards. As PLAYERS, what puts Jordan oh so mighty high in your eyes and Kobe so low? Jordan’s awards don’t dwarf Magic’s. Funny how you guys jumped to awards when comparing MJ, but they were barely mentioned when comparing Kobe and Magic. I don’t believe MJ is the undeniable GOAT like many brainwashed people do, nor is he #1 on my all-time list, but for sure he is worthy of the name.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Kareem at 40 was putting up 14 and 6. 14 and 5 in the playoffs.

  • http://www.google.com/news BETCATS

    If Elgin Baylor didnt get injured their wouldnt even be a debate right now.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Kobe did not guard Iverson. That is an outright lie. If you’re wiling to lie about that, your comments can’t be trusted.
    Tyron Lue made a career off guarding Iverson and when he wasn’t, Kobe wanted no parts of Iverson.
    When they played the Kings, Kobe and his great defense wanted nothing to do with Mike Bibby or Jason Williams. He stayed right on Doug Christie.
    I can’t remember who guarded Kidd, but I doubt it was Kobe. And Kobe was just a likely to be guarding Mark Jackson and hounding him up the floor as he was to be guarding Fisher.
    Y’all are just making stuff up now.

  • http://myspace.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    1. Magic 2. Kobe 3. Kareem 4. Mikan 5. Shaq 6. Wilt 7. West 8. Baylor 9. Worthy 10. Van Exel (yup)

  • Mburb321

    Allen p, dont let this old slowed down version of kobe fool you. Dont forget who was team usa shut down defender. It wasnt wade or lebron it was kobe, Jerry Colangelo said he thought bron learned a great deal watching Kobes on ball defense. When hes actually committed to it hes one of the best hands down.

  • Maniac

    So back to my point. The ONLY advantage that Jordan has over Magic as a PLAYER, outside of sheer athleticism (like Kobe) is scoring and defense. So what’s your point? Magic is a better rebounder than both, passer than both, and makes his teammates better. Why favor one, but diminish the other? It’s splitting hairs.

  • http://myspace.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    I didnt say 20 and 10 per night NBK the stat man lol

  • shutupallenp

    @dfrance leading the league in steals doesnt make you a great defender? what are you talking about? and wilt did it the year he led the league in scoring, dud edidnt have to pass, he had the green light of all green lights, triple quadruple team it didnt matter, wilt is one of the best passing big men of all time
    Chris Paul is a great defender, a little whiny for my tastes but a great defender none-the-less

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Iverson averaged 35 points per game in that Finals! 35.6 to be exact. He dropped 37 points in that final game, his second highest point total of the series!

  • Maniac

    I got mad love for Baylor and yes I do believe he is super underrated. I have him on the same level with West. I’m not sure if they were ever going to beat the Celtics though. He said it himself, they didn’t have an answer for Bill Russell.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Maniac
    I’m 31 years old. The Class of 1996 was THE class of my NBA watching. I’ve followed all those cats closely.
    Kobe has always been overrated as defender. Dude destroys players with clear offensive weaknesses. He is just passable against everybody else, and that’s even when he had Shaq clogging up the lane behind him.
    Fisher did most of the heavy lifting on defense back in the day. Kobe got a lot of praise for some BS, in my opinion. Dude is extremely intelligent and understands who to exploit weaknesses, but he’s never, EVER been more than above average on defense.

  • http://myspace.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    AllenP i’m with ya bro but you gotta admit Kobe works DAMB hard on the defensive end (his whole career) to be considered overrated.

  • http://www.slamonline.com UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER

    KOBE’S DEFENSE HAS BEEN SO INCREDIBLY OVERRATED, IT MAKES ME SICK. I CANT DENY HIS SCORING EXCELLENCE. KOBE DIDNT GUARD RAY OR PAUL EITHER YEAR, HE ‘GUARDED’ RONDO. PHIL ALWAYS MADE A POINT OF HIDING KOBE ON DEFENSE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. SURE, PARTLY TO ‘SAVE HIS ENERGY’ FOR OFFENSE, LIKE KOBE HAS EVER LACKED FOR ENERGY TO SHOOT.

  • Maniac

    Gametimeweezy that looks about right. Kobe vs. Magic will go all day. I still think West & Baylor should go over Wilt & Shaq because they spent their whole career in LA. Think about it, if Shaq’s & Wilt’s Lakers careers were better than West’s & Baylor’s, then the combination of that with their other accomplishments on their other teams blow those guys out of the water and that is not the case. Mikan is a tossup. LOL at Van Exel. I would take Pau over him

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Well, Jordan is SIGNIFICANTLY better as a defender compared to Magic. He’s on a whole different plane of existence.
    Same thing with scoring.
    Jordan wasn’t the same level of passer as Magic, but he was much closer than Kobe, same thing with rebounding. Look at Jordan’s rebounding numbers from early in his career before the triangle. Magic averaged 7.2 boards for his career and Jordan had 6.2 and that’s despite the difference in the two teams pace.
    Plus, Jordan rarely made stupid decisions. His efficiency as a scorer was due in part to the athletic advantage he had over many foes, but it was also due to the fact that he didn’t take the same sort of stupid shots that Kobe revels in. Jordan was a chucker, but he was a wise one.
    All that together is why people give Jordan the nod over Magic.

  • Heals

    To all the Kob fans/disciples who’ve called out Diesel for his opinions of Bean in the past; what do ya’ll have to say now? So he was full of it, jealous, a hater or lying then, but he says this and I bet most of you just nodded your heads in agreement with it. Can’t have it both ways beanbags…

  • http://myspace.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    That SLAM cover back in the day was ill with Kobe, Antoine, Ray Allen, Marbury and them on the cover and you pull ot the page and it had the others on the back (kerry kittles, jermaine o’neal, samaki water etc..) everone except iverson. Anyone else remember that?

  • Maniac

    I am not denying that Kobe is probably overrated defensively, I don’t agree, but points are being made. I never said Kobe was Sidney Moncrief on the defensive end. My point is that he is pretty good defensively and you aren’t giving him the credit that he deserves.

  • http://myspace.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    lmao Jordan was a chucker… you mean scorer. Chuckers throw bricks… not score 32,000 points.

  • http://www.slamonline.com UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER

    HEALS FTW WITH ‘BEANBAGS’! GREAT STUFF

  • robb

    I remember the rest of the Redeem Team calling Kobe’s defense “inspiring”. I don’t think an above average defender would get those comments from the best players in the world.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I said he’s above average. If it was a test, I’d give him a solid B, maybe a low B+.
    On the 100 point scale, with 93 being an “A”, I would say Kobe is probably a 90.
    That’s good, not great. Definitely not All-NBA team great.
    He makes his name against bums, then falls back against true superstars. And everybody says “Well nobody can stop a superstar in the NBA.” That’s BS. Great defenders lock up superstars, or at least make it extremely difficult for them to go off. Kobe has never done that. I mean, did he lock up Manu? Or Parker? Or Pierce? Or Ray Allen? Who did he lock up in that Detroit series back in the day? People say he locked up Reggie Miller, but Reggie dropped 30+ twice in that series, and never scored fewer than 20. He only had one truly putrid game, and that was Game One.
    Name a complete basketball player that Kobe “locked up” in the past 10 years? In fact, name five.

  • Heals

    Gametime – Gotta get Jerry higher on that list somehow. Let’s throw in his GM work for the team, which was great at extending their dominance another decade…

  • http://myspace.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    Nobody remembers that rookie SLAM cover back in ’96?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Nah, chuckers take lots of shots.
    That’s my definition at least. Jordan was the king of chuckers.
    As much as Kobe chucks, he’s only taken 2000 shots once in his career. Look at his shot totals compared to Jordan. That many shots is virtually unheard of in the modern era. People kill Kobe for how many shots he took the year he averaged 35 a game, but look at what Jordan was doing. Pretty much the only time Jordan shot fewer than 1800 times was when he was injured or coming off retirement.
    That’s why JOrdan’s shooting percentages are so crazy.

  • Maniac

    And Kobe isn’t in a completely different universe of scoring over Magic? I would argue that Kobe is probably a more SKILLED scorer than Jordan. Now before the MJ nutriders come crucify me, think about that. No question Jordan is the better scorer, but think about skilled (like Kareem’s scoring vs Wilt’s scoring). You aren’t going to concede with Kobe’s defense and that is fine, but Kobe is easily better. You are REALLY splitting hairs if you are going to sit here and compare Jordan’s passing & rebounding vs. Kobe’s passing and rebounding. I’m not even going to get into that because it is obvious that you will go against Kobe no matter what. Jordan > Kobe, yes. His efficiency and decision making is the icing on the cake (though I would argue that Mike didn’t face the zone defenses that Kobe does). The point is that it is ludicrous to breakdown Jordan’s and Kobe’s games and then feel the need to toss Magic in between them. Terrible logic. If Magic > Kobe, it’s because of his accomplishments

  • http://myspace.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    @heals Yea Maniac said that too.. switch West and Baylor with Shaq and Wilt because they were life long Lakers so the yea definately deserve to be higher on the list

  • Maniac

    Allen I got a better question. Name five complete basketball players that Jordan CONSISTENTLY locked up. Don’t worry, I’ll wait. And yes I do agree 100% on the Jordan chucker comment.

  • http://myspace.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    oh yea you mean ‘gunners’ or at least thats what I call them yep I feel you, Jordan was a gunner but still Kobe has much better range than Jordan ever had but before Jordan shot much from 22ft and out he was just MEAN with his. I’m talking about before the rings. From like ’85-’90 was just NASTY!

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    What do naming 5 player’s Jordan locked up have to do with Kobe being an overrated defender?

  • shutupallenp

    even off the ball mj was a better defender than kobe. and more skilled scorer? Jordan could do it all and every aspect of it better than kobe did and does, whos a better shooter? MJ better slasher def MJ, wider arsenal MJ what does kobe do that mj didnt do but better?

  • http://yahoo darrell

    nbk is stupid if he thinks kobe is better then magic he is not even better then shaq and they played on the same team

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    you can’t read.

  • shutupallenp

    and Magic is a better basketball player than Kobe even with his shot put jump shot

  • Maniac

    NBK – It has everything to do with it. Answer the question. You guys say this and that about Kobe, but don’t let the same apply to the other greats. Shutup – no one said Kobe is a better defender than MJ. Calm down. Jordan is not a better shooter from outside. Midrange to inside, yes, but there is no question Kobe has more range. Kobe has a “wider arsenal”. We’re not trying to compare Jordan & Kobe explicitly; I was using a comparison between them conclude that Magic is not a better player than Kobe. By the way, work on your grammar homie.

  • http://myspace.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    Jordan consitently locked down bob hansen, dennis hopson, steve kerr, jud buechler, and larry krystowiak …in practice

  • http://wikipedia.org Eddie1

    i havent even read the article; but yes Kobe is the greatest laker ever imo (I was born in 92)

  • http://myspace.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    Kobe consitently locked down adam morrison, jordan farmar, mark madsen, smush parker, and luke walton

  • http://www.twitter.com/_dfrance dfrance21

    ^^^Lmao at Eddie1′s age disclaimer.

  • shutupallenp

    Im sorry if im posting on a website and my gramma aint up to par for you teach, but your analogy by comparing kobe to mj is stupid, wider meaning he has slightly, better :range than mj!? but everything else mj has the nod, ” if my grammar skills are lacking ,.;so are your debate skills. arguing who has the best grammar on slamonline, your a tool. besides a couple inches on his jumper what else is in Kobe’s arsenal? that jordan doesnt have?!!!!!!! is that not valid enough because for you

  • shutupallenp

    imma change my name to shutupmaniactoolbagjerk in a min

  • shutupallenp

    oh and btw homie you need to work on your sentence structure and punctuation

  • http://www.twitter.com/TheDiesel Anton

    I think the most important point here is that a legitimate argument can be made that Shaq is better than Jordan.

  • shutupallenp

    i heard smush used to give him fits in practice, i mean at least thats what smush told me

  • http://www.leaguelineup.com/welcome.asp?url=pawtucketymca Gametimeweezy

    Smush used to give his momma fits thats about it lol

  • http://www.optimabbc.be Max

    Eddie, In 2092?

  • http://www.slamonline.com UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER

    I AGREE WITH ANTON.

  • shutupallenp

    Smush momma dead @sshole. Dude could play for real, he was just a head case

  • http://www.slamonline.com UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER

    HONESTLY, THIS WHOLE POST IS POINTLESS. EVERYONE KNOWS THE GREATEST LAKER EVER WAS BILL BRASKY

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Anybody still arguing that Kobe’s better than MJ in anything expect for long range shooting or that he’s a better laker than Magic needs to play russian roulette with a Kalashnikov.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    LOl, maniac, I don’t need to name 5 guys Jordan locked up, it’s not going to change your sooper biased opinion. If you don’t know that Jordan was a much better defender than Kobe there is no point arguing. If you watched both guys careers it’s obvious.

  • yehh34

    So close at the top
    Magic/Kareem/Kobe
    The order really doesn’t matter 5 rings for them all.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I don’t know what you mean by consistently. I’m not sure how much that entails. But here is my list.
    Joe Dumars
    John Starks
    Jerry Stackhouse
    Clyde Drexler* (Don’t just look at points, look at the change in efficiency)
    Nick Anderson
    Rex Chapman
    Steve Smith
    Kerry Kittles
    Bobby Phills
    Reggie Miller
    And I just got that list from playoff opponents. Look at the difference in point totals and efficiency when going against Jordan, and this was even late in his career when his focus on defense had waned.

  • http://nba.com GP23

    Michael Jordan became who he was not only due to his talent and desire, but also because of his immaculate timing. He arrived on the scene when sports media and marketing were still in their developmental stages, and used his business acumen to establish himself as a force in the market. This was on top of being the best basketball player on the planet. There will never be another MJ, because not only would a player have to match his on court accomplishments, they would also have to completely revolutionize the way the sport is viewed and marketed. Its tough to be the guy who has to follow that act.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    I always liked Bobby Phill’s game.

  • http://www.facebook.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    i sincerely apologize

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I agree Gametime.
    But Kobe will never be Jordan because Kobe hates people and kills puppies.
    Lol.

  • Jamaal87

    ‘Eboy’ has to be the lamest name I’ve ever seen….haha.

    What a tool.

  • Enigmatic

    TO BILL BRASKY!!!

  • shutupallenp

    Its cool you didnt know, Smush could really ball, its just the mental side of it for him was tough. And gunners vs chuckers- Gunners make alot of shots , chuckers launch ill-advised shots and dont make many (at least thats how i see it). Jordan was a killer, the type to rip your heart out and throw it at your mother.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I use the two terms interchangeably.
    Smush could ball. I remember when he was tearing things up initially. Then, of course, things went downhill as the pressure of performing every night got to him

  • http://SLAMONLINE.COM LakeShow

    shutup, shut up. Smush was garbage. Ya he could kick all our a$$es at the park, but dude was a TERRIBLE nba player.

    Magic is the “Greatest Laker” IMO. Kobe is the 2nd best Laker. That might change though. If Kobe finishes his career with LA he has a good chance to go down as the greatest Laker ever. Which is crazy because of the vast talent that has been on that team over the years.

  • http://www.facebook.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    all attributed to Kobe’s stifling defense on a daily basis.. see? lol

  • Chukaz

    People tend to glorify the past. Was Magic great? Yes he was, maybe the greatest player ever, but its not far fetched to think that Kobe’s better than Magic. Keep in mind that kobe’s the better scorer he’s faster more athletic and a better defender not to mention he’s a better ball handler shooter and what not. Kobe’s like Jordan 2.0. If Jordan’s the greatest player ever than it’s not far fetched to think that Kobe might be better than Magic

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Kobe’s a better ball-handler than the greatest PG of all-time? Ok, sure.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Saying Kobe is better then Magic Johnson is like saying you would rather be lead into war by Achilles than Julius Caesar. One’s pretty great individually, the other wins the wars. Well atleast, that’s the set analogy I can think of while I’m sitting in traffic.

  • @Deknowz

    Fine, Magic is the greatest “Laker”-mostly for personality reasons in my opinion, but if we’re listing greatest players of all time…He’d be looking up at Kobe from the cheap seats! I got 81 problems AND MAGIC AINT ONE!

  • Maniac

    OMG nbk never once did I say Kobe is near the defender that Jordan was. Stop putting words in my mouth. I simply said they both are significantly better defenders than magic

  • Maniac

    Lol at shutup. No comment

  • Maniac

    So by your analogy nbk, Bill Russell is greater than everyone. (He is the greatest in my opinion, but I’m going to love seeing you backtrack out of this one)

  • Maniac

    Fair enough Allen. Good points. I agree. I just need you to give Kobe his due credit

  • Ballislove

    Smh kobes better magic even said it himself

  • http://www.facebook.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    still nobody remembers the pull-out rookie SLAM cover in ’96… smh sad

  • Rainman

    Although i agree with everything everyone has said, Magic himself has said winning means everything, and has SAID that in terms of all time Laker greats, Kobe is tied with him right now, and that if he gets a 6th title, he’ll enter that next level.

    But yeah, Magic n Kareem, cant go wrong with either.

    I disliek how everyones all oh magic magic magic, but ppl arent considering KAreem was THE GUY for a LONG LONG Time, IN terms of all time Greats OVERALL, i’d probably have KAreem over Magic as well. But like i sad, u cant go wrong either way.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Lol quote me, make that last red herring make sense maniac.

  • http://www.twitter.com/_dfrance dfrance21

    @LakeShow Smush started for 2 full seasons at the point for the Lakers and averaged 11, 4 and 3. Lots of D-Leaguers and overseas players would love the be garbage like that in the NBA.

  • Maniac

    Has me curious. Name your top 10

  • http://www.twitter.com/_dfrance dfrance21

    Gametime I remember the cover. I think AI was out of town that day or something. I don’t think he was ommitted on purpose. Lots of All-NBA caliber talent in that draft. There was also John Wallace and Samaki Walker if I remember correctly. lol.

  • http://www.facebook.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    @DFRANCE!!! YES u are the MAN!!! also had Kobe, Marcus Camby, Marbury, Antoine, Kerry Kittles, Jermaine O’neal, Ray Allen, Shareef Abdur-Raheem!!! ahhh those were the days I was a freshman I think.

  • Zabbah

    I don’t know what Shaq’s been smoking or even the entire Slam community here. Eboy, nbk, and the rest of you guys must have amnesia. You all forgot about Vlad Divac? Greatest Laker of all time.

  • http://www.twitter.com/nflem41 Nicolas Fleming

    It’s Betty Crocker, and it’s not even close. Oh, it says Laker….proceed.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Maniac, since you insist on arguing with me, nbk Posted: Nov.29 at 12:51 pm
    It’s more than hard to gauge Magic as a defender. He guarded 4 positions. His own position the least (other than Center which wasn’t at all & Power Forward). Kobe was clearly a better defender, but Magic provided defensive advantages that Kobe couldn’t, just solely from his size and position on the court. But the main factor that separates the two in my opinion, are intangibles.

    - like I said, Kobe was clearly a better defender than Magic. But he wasn’t on Jordan’s level. Jordan’s defensive accomplishments have nothing to do with Kobe or Magic. You asked how Jordan was clearly better tha.
    Magic if Magic is better than Kobe, so I answered you in a different comment. nbk Posted: Nov.29 at 1:50 pm
    What do naming 5 player’s Jordan locked up have to do with Kobe being an overrated defender?
    Maniac “NBK – It has everything to do with it. Answer the question.”

  • http://SLAMONLINE.COM LakeShow

    dfrance, Okay. Your point? He was the second or third option on that Laker team(not by choice). Smush Parker is a poor mans Ramon Sessions.

  • Maniac

    Oh OK I see now, there was a misunderstanding. So what intangibles does Magic have over Kobe that he doesn’t have over Jordan? None.

  • http://www.facebook.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    I think what maniac meant, and this is purely cuz I remember the discussion, is that if you can’t name 5 players that Kobe locked down on defense, than name 5 players Jordan locked down because he’s beter on D. And if you can’t than it’s a moot point because just because you can’t name anybody doesn’t mean he’s just average on defense. (someone said he was only average) Either way Kobe is a great on defense and works way to hard on that end to be classified as average. His hustle alone makes him the complete player he is and its not just hustle, he gets in yo a$$. BUt lets remember Magic’s Lakers were no slouch on defense either, and it always start at the Point.

  • Maniac

    Thanks for clearing that up gametime.

  • http://slamonline.com Sergio

    PPG APG RPG FG% SPG
    Kobe 25.3 4.7 5.3 45 1.5
    Magic 19.5 11.2 7.2 52 1.9
    Kareem 24.6 3.6 11.2 56 1.0

    Shaq has his opinion and its a valid one. If he picked Smush Parker then he would be a clown. But how can you say that Kobe isn’t up there.

  • http://www.facebook.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    I agree with Rainman and Sergio you gotta mention Kareem in that same breath. Center is always a different category (Shaq even says that at the end of the article) and can only do ‘big men stuff’. But yea it comes down to winning so Kareem’s the man and all but all around, Magic and Kobe both got 5 rings. I’m sticking with Magic though until Kobe’s career is over. Then maybe he’s the greatest who knows.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Maniac why do you keep bringing Jordan into this? Jordan was a better basketball player in every (significant) way when compared to Kobe. Magic although a less “skilled” basketball player, was a much better leader than both. So much so, that it made up for the difference between his game and Kobe’s. He lead his teams to more wins. Made his teammates happier. And was just as productive (actually more so offensively). But he didn’t make up for the difference between him and Jordan, because although Jordan was not the greatest teammate, he was a decent too good leader. Who accomplished more in terms of success both from a team perspective and an individual perspective than Magic. (and obviously Kobe). The difference between Jordan and Kobe is so f*cking obvious, bringing Jordan into every Kobe debate takes all credibility from any Kobe related perspective that you try and push on us. It’s clear that you favor Kobe. What is unclear is whether you value Kobe over reason.

  • http://nba.com GP23

    It’s crazy how Shaq never won a rebounding title in his career.. damn!

  • http://nba.com GP23

    Could Michael have played with Shaq? The man said himself that he didn’t know what he would do. Michael was blessed with another excellent wing player that allowed him to roam freely around the court, posting or playing the perimeter as the situation dictated. He couldnt do that with a 7’2″ 350lb center clogging the driving lanes and constantly demanding the ball. Or could he?

  • http://nba.com GP23

    It never ceases to amaze me how people continually give this guy a pass for his petulance. The fact of the matter is that he is extremely sensitive, and needs constant attention. Ask Phil Jackson. The way he tried to lay blame on Kobe for his trade to Miami is hilarious. As if his cursing out Jerry Buss during a pre-season game about his undeserved contract extension might have had something to do with it. It was primarily a business decision. Even if Kobe took out a full page ad in the LA Times, professing his love for Big, Buss was never going to give $20mil a season to an out of shape, injury prone, aging center. After watching him limp through this postseason would you want to owe him $80mil over the next four years? Yeah, me neither.

  • Maniac

    I’ve already made it clear since day 1 that Jordan is better than Kobe. There is no way around that statement. What you guys fail to accept is that the gap between those two as PLAYERS is very small. Jordan is slightly better at almost everything, but not by much. He has Kobe beat in stats (which is easy to explain) and awards (also easy to explain). I use Jordan as the measuring stick. So if Jordan is clearly > Magic, logic should tell you that somehow placing Magic in between those two as PLAYERS is not easy. Yes Magic has the intangibles over BOTH, and you seem to be picking in choosing what to favor for Jordan and what not to favor for Kobe. I am not biased, I am objective. You choose to favor any aspect that seems to make your opinion seem valid.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    You’ll never know. You could say that Shaq held Kobe’s development back. Or his will to drive to the basket. Or you could also argue that Shaq opened things up for Kobe, considering he was double teamed his whole career in LA (except against Philadelphia, who paid for it, and Portland, who ran every kind of defensive set on earth at Shaq, while they had Scottie Pippen on Kobe). You could argue that the same would have happened to Michael.. Depends on your perspective. The only way to really compare them is to look at what actually happened.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I have no idea if Mike could have won with Shaq.
    But it wouldn’t have been because he was clicking and taking horrible shots. It owuld have been because he and Shaq clashed over Shaq failing to get in shape and work on defense and the glass.
    Kobe not only clashed with Shaq for those understandable reasons, he compounded the problem by taking HORRIBLE FREAKING SHOTS!
    Let’s be real here. Having an absolute beast of a center makes the game EASIER, not harder. Over the course of NBA history, players who team up with beast centers play better, not worse. It is a serious problem that Kobe has never actually topped 47 percent shooting in a single season.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    And who is giving Shaq a pass?
    We are talking about Kobe compared to Magic.
    And Kobe’s failure to equal Magic as a leader and teammate.
    I don’t understand why people have an argument and then just ignore the points other people make to debate some random esoteric point.
    Kobe was a better scorer by a wide margin.
    Kobe was a better defender by a smaller margin.
    Kobe was significantly worse at everything else related to basketball.
    Particularly, and this is important, getting along with other players to make them play their best and do things they didn’t think they could do.
    Like turning Vlade Divac into an 18 ppg scorer in the NBA Finals as a rookie. That’s what legends do.

  • Maniac

    GP23 I may get hounded for this, but I don’t think Jordan and Shaq would have won anything together. Kobe and Shaq BARELY coexisted and I know Jordan is as stubborn as they come. He would not have given in to Shaq or Jackson. Evidence? When Phil himself asked Jordan to stop chasing the scoring titles, Mike said no. He doesn’t listen to anyone and Shaq would have either had to beat the s*** out of him or one would have been traded (Bill Cartwright threatened him on numerous occasions). Jordan was probably a worst teammate than Kobe (idk) and Shaq’s ego would not have allowed for Jordan to criticize him or the rest of the Lakers like Mike did to his Bulls teammates. Idk though, just speculation. Plus it’s important to remember that Kobe came into the league young and raw so had he done a couple years in college and massaged his ego more, he probably would not have coexisted with Shaq like he did.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Jordan is clearly better than Kobe, literally, you have not watched Jordan, not know basketball, or extremely biased to argue otherwise. Jordan is not as clearly, but still clearly, better than Magic. I don’t have a huge problem with the argument of Kobe & Magic, because there is a legitimate argument to be had (granted, I don’t think Kobe has reached him, but he can) at some point. Regardless of how you feel, bringing in a 3rd player who is better than both, to try and get people to understand your argument is never, ever going to work. It is only going to cause more arguments, You believe Kobe and Jordan’s difference is “slight” when really, it’s plainly obvious, and you argue it like your opinion makes it right. When your argument is based off of an OPINION, that the majority of the basketball conscious world disagrees with, your never going to make logical sense. Do you understand?

  • http://www.facebook.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    All I know is Mike couldn’t have done it without Pip.. and I’m pretty sure Shaq wan’t limping anywhere in 2002. He was dunking on heads. His exit from the Lakers had nothing to do with basketball on the court. It was business.

  • http://nba.com GP23

    All of Kobe’s moves are immediately placed under suspicion and overanalyzed due to his history of questionable behavior. Even if he literally took a bullet for LeBron, and pushed Wade out of the way of a speeding car, there would be speculation on his motivations.

  • Maniac

    Jordan was not that great of a teammate or leader either. Jordan is not the rebounder, passer, or ball handler as Magic is either and yet you guys continue to throw out BS reasons like his MVPs and rings as to why he is significantly better than both Kobe & Magic when in actuality, some people still favor Magic over Jordan and the difference between Jordan & Kobe is not huge like you claim it to be. Magic is not CLEARLY better than Kobe and Jordan is not far off from either. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with saying Kobe is greater than Magic and you guys can’t accept that. I actually have Magic one spot below Kobe on my all-time list. No one is saying Kobe blows him out of the water, but splitting hairs like you are doing is not the way to go about claiming someone is significantly better than someone else. You guys don’t want me bringing Mike into the discussion because it will force you to backtrack and contradict yourselves

  • http://nba.com GP23

    Kobe came in the league and wanted to build from Jordan’s blueprint. Not on the court, but in his projection of himself to the public at large. His behavior and mannerisms seemed calculated right down to his blinks.

  • Maniac

    I already said Jordan is clearly better Kobe. Jordan is clearly the greatest perimeter player of all-time, but by slight comparisons. Do you understand what slight means? If I’m slightly better than you, it can still be CLEAR that I am better. 2 is slightly greater than 1, but 2 is clearly greater than 1. Is that hard to understand?

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    So it shouldn’t be that hard for you to understand 1.5 is still clearly better than 1. Assuming Jordan is a 1, Magic is a 1.5, and Kobe is a 2.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    @MANIAC you are right on most of your comments.
    Magic Johnson has stated that Kobe is the greatest Laker of All Time and Magic compares Kobe to MJ all the time. Do yall watch basketball or watch inside information or read other articles besides Slam. Magic feels this way about Kobe and I trust Magic more than every comment up here about Kobe is not better.

  • Maniac

    Lol math isn’t your strongest subject huh? Read your comment again and think about what you said.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Assuming Jordan is a 2, Magic a 1.5, and Kobe a 1. My bad. – Obviously this is a matter of perspective. Your definition of slight in terms of comparing players is as obvious as a difference of 2 to 1. When my definition of slight when comparing basketball players is, closer to comparing Kobe’s career scoring average to Dwyane Wades. (just an example)

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    THE REASON KOBE IS BETTER THAN MAGIC: UNEDITED BY Tim Doherty

    Magic Johnson is universally referred to as the greatest Laker of all time. He is remembered for leading the Showtime Lakers to championship glory during an era in which basketball was at its apex.

    Current Laker Kobe Bryant has helped Los Angeles regain its championship dominance, and in many ways has passed the immortal Johnson.

    Kobe and Magic brought different things to the table. Johnson is the best passer in league history, averaging 11.2 assists per game over the course of his career. Johnson led the Lakers through his ability to set up teammates in both the half-court offense and the fast-break offense.

    Magic also brought great versatility to the court. He stood 6’9″ tall and could play any position from point guard to center.

    Most notably, Magic was forced to play center during his rookie season in the decisive Game 7 of the 1980 NBA Finals. Lakers center Kareem Abdul-Jabbar suffered an injury in the previous game, and Magic was able to step in for him and dominate, recording 42 points, 15 rebounds and seven assists, as the Lakers won their first title of the Magic era.

    Kobe brings sensational scoring ability and tremendous defensive ability. Bryant has averaged 25.3 points per game during his career, good for 10th all time. Bryant combines his athleticism and ability to take the ball to the rim with a sensational mid-range game that has become lethal in recent years.

    Bryant’s defensive ability is often ignored. Eleven times Bryant has made the league’s All-NBA defensive team, including nine first-team selections. Kobe always takes on the task of covering the opposing team’s premier scorer, and throughout his career has been more than up to the task.

    I’ll give Johnson a slight edge if you compare his passing ability to Kobe’s scoring ability because Johnson ranks first all time in assists per game, while Kobe ranks 10th all time in points per game. However, Kobe’s defensive ability is light years better than Magic’s.

    Johnson was for the most part a defensive liability. Quick guards routinely were able to fly by Magic, and forwards and centers pounded him in the paint. Unlike Kobe, Magic always matched up against the opposing team’s worst offensive player, an attempt to hide his defensive deficiencies.

    When debating Kobe’s greatness, the fact that he won his first three championships with Shaquille O’Neal is always brought up.

    On the other hand, Magic played with a player who had an even better career than Shaq. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is a top-five all-time player who is the NBA’s all-time leading scorer. Kareem was on the Lakers for all five of Johnson’s championships, and although during the last couple his skills had diminished, he still possessed his patented sky hook, which even in his waning years was unstoppable.

    Magic not only played with Kareem, he also played with another Hall of Famer in James Worthy. Nicknamed “Big Game James,” Worthy was a tremendous clutch performer for the Lakers who made seven all-star teams and was the most valuable player of the ’88 finals. Who was the third-best player on the Shaq and Kobe Lakers? Robert Horry? Derek Fisher?

    Bryant has won his last two championships without Shaq or any other future Hall of Famer; a feat that Johnson was not able to accomplish. Bryant still has time to win another championship, and if he does, there will be no question who the greatest Laker is. Even if he is unable to capture another title, I believe Kobe is the superior player.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Magic can say Kobe is a greater Laker all he wants. Doesn’t change anything. Just like it doesn’t change anything, that Shaq said Dwyane Wade was the best player on earth. Just like it doesn’t change anything that Scottie Pippen said LeBron will be better than Jordan. – People say things, doesn’t mean they are true. Opinions are like assholes.

  • Maniac

    Thanks Seed. Yep Magic has said it, Jerry West has said it, James Worthy said Kobe is looking to be the greatest, and this is not new from Shaq. Shaq said before the 2010 finals that if the Lakers won, Kobe would be the greatest. I’m sure I can find quotes from other basketball personalities saying the same thing. With the whole MJ comparisons, Phil Jackson (who should know the two players the best) has said numerous times that there is little difference between MJ & Kobe; Pippen & Horace Grant agree, others do too. Only a fool, MJ d!ckrider, and/or complete hater can disagree and say otherwise.

  • shutupallenp

    So what happened when Jordan retired? his team was still a playoff team but had dissent and didnt do much, he comes back and three more championships, leadership can be done many ways Jordan was that teams leader in heart and soul. Whether his ego was big or not he still deferred to Kerr for that last second shot, he made Kukoc an allstar, what more would you want from a leader? and anyone that considers Magic> Jordan is just a silly Laker fanboy. Jordan is the greatest because of the personal success, team success and championships (which he was clearly the reason they won) you never heard oh Pippen or Kukoc is the reason the bulls won, its MJ’s dynasty and legacy. Yeah Russell has more rings, Kareem scored more and wilt was more dominant, but if you take a look jordan would be behind each except for overall points (karl Malone) but dont forget overall points doesnt include allstar games or playoffs

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I never mentioned his MVPs or rings.
    I’m not sure who did. At 1:28 p.m. I provided my explanation for why I have Jordan as better than Magic.
    I also provided the list you asked for on Mike locking players down.
    Since I’m getting off work, I’m about to bow out of this convo, but I just wanted to make it clear what I said and what I provided.

  • http://www.bulls.com Enigmatic

    George Mikan is the greatest Laker of all time!!!!!
    Pardon me, y’all, that’s just my DePaul bias acting up.
    Please continue…

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Lol, there is little difference between Kobe’s skill and Jordan’s skill. But who gives a sh*t? I care what they did on the actual court. And on the court, when it counted. There is an OBVIOUS difference. The two aren’t close. Kobe is the poor man’s Michael Jordan. But keep throwing out these opinions from NBA players, it helps a lot. Really changing the history books.

  • http://nba.com GP23

    I’m out like T-Mac in the first round. Peace y’all.

  • robb

    I’m a big Kobe fan, but I’d hate to play with him. What frustrates me the most about Kobe is that even though he understands the game like few others, he refuses to make the right play on many occasions. He gets away with it because he’s incredibly talented, but he doesn’t know how to lead a team, not like Magic. Magic was a natural leader, Kobe has gotten better at it but it’s been a struggle because basically he doesn’t give a sh*t about anybody else, but he knows he needs a team to win.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Jordan – Russel – KAJ – Wilt – Magic. Bird, Oscar, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Bryant I’m out as well, gotta hoop.

  • Maniac

    Lol and yet nbk ignores everything with reason to keep his biased opinion (while calling everyone else biased). I was going to debate more about the Mike thing, but it isn’t even worth it. SMH. Same with you shutup. You are obviously still high off the mass marketing of the NBA in the 90s.

  • Maniac

    Hmmmm interesting. Mine is: Russell, Wilt, Jordan, Kareem, Kobe, Magic, Bird, Oscar, West, Baylor.

  • http://slamonline.com 1982

    Just wanted to point out that I’ve never seen an Eboy first post that was followed by so many people who agreed with it. Anyways, cosign.

  • bull22

    1. magic johnson 2. kareem abdul jabbar 3. george mikan 4. jerry west.
    the rest of the order is up for grabs.. there are about 17 rings right there.
    magic changed the game, kareem changed the game, mikan changed the game,
    jerry west is the silhouette of the nba and was on a 69 win laker team…
    kobe’s claim to fame was taking being an arrogant jackarse to new levels..

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    The 1990′s marketing of MJ messed alot of people up. I have debated up here plenty of times, MJ gets a pass for leadership and defensive ability and scoring. MJ took bad shots, cost the Bulls games and should have lost two final series, not for his teammates. Those years was against Seattle and against Jazz the second time. He didn’t lose so people consider him a winner like no other player ever. When Pippen led Bulls with MJ gone just one year, was one bad call away from going to NBA Finals. I get tired of the MJ HERO worship. Kobe came up through the ranks against an egomaniac named Shaq and still has 5 to 7 years left on his career. Kobe has been named player of the Decade and won his last two rings with no future Hall of Famer on his team. How many teams in the History of the NBA won multiple rings with only one future Hall of Famer. GO LOOK THIS UP PLEASE!!!

  • Maniac

    bull22 you are wrong on so many levels it’s ridiculous. First, wtf. Magic didn’t change a damn thing except how it was marketed. Kareem didn’t change a damn thing. What does West being the silhouette have to do with anything? There were other players on that 69 win team too. I would argue that Wilt had a bigger influence on that 69 win team than West too. SMH. I’m not beefing with your order (except the fact that Kobe is missing), but your reasoning is the level of a 3rd grader.

  • Maniac

    Seed I agree completely. Mike is no doubt worthy of most of his acclaim, but the guy is treated like a god when he has numerous flaws. The Kobe-Gasol-Odom trio is dwarfed by the Jordan-Pippen-Grant/Rodman, Magic-Kareem-Worthy, Bird-McHale-Parish, Olajuwon-Drexler-Horry, Shaq-Bryant-idk and Duncan-Parker-Ginobili, Russell-Cousy/Havlicek/Jones… trios of other dynasties. At the very most, Kobe’s trio is in the middle.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Maniac, You really have to come around more often to know who to take even remotely serious. Bulls22 ain’t that guy. He puts the “Home” in Homer and the “Hat” in hate. I had nearly the exact same argument a month or two back in regards to Bean being similar and comparable to Money. I was being brow beat like I just said something completely ridiculous. They weren’t having that. They truly won’t/don’t except that KB is only slightly less of a player than MJ. Like a 9.6 compared to a 9.9. Saying Kobe is a poor mans MJ truly shows the lack of knowledge of history that some people have on the two greatest SG’s of all time. That’s part of it, they don’t want anyone on Moneys stage. They feel as if you are taking away from MJ’s legacy to say KB is close to his greatness. When in reality is KAJ any less good because Shaq was incredible? No Shaq was just that good. Same thing here.

  • http://theurbangriot.com The NUPE

    @Seed: The last NBA Championship team without a HOFer on it would probably be the 2003-4 Pistons. Unless somehow Rip, Prince, Wallace, Wallace or Billups find a way in. Not sure what that has to do with anything though.

  • Maniac

    Thanks LakeShow I see that now. Some of these guys are just disgustingly ignorant. I agree. Personally I don’t think Kareem and Shaq are comparable like Kobe & Mike, but i catch your drift. Now I truly understand what you meant when you welcomed me to the slamily lol.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    @THE NUPE, Not one lucky title, 2 RINGS with only one Future Hall of Famer. Any team can win one title, like the Mavs just did. I am talking about TWO rings. KOBE did that, I just trying to show Kobe gets dumped on for MJ to look better. Like Barkley stated on TNT one night. He thought nobody would be able to ride in the same car with MJ, until Kobe, but MJ is still driving. Kobe is the passenger. BOOK IT!!

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Nobody is taking away from Kobe’s greatness. We just aren’t putting him on a pedestal that he hasn’t earned. “A poor man’s MJ” simply implies that he is a lesser (“cheaper”) version of the same player. Which is true. Y’all (you, maniac, the seed, smh yeah your in a parenthesis with the seed) just mistake people being realistic about Kobe’s overall greatness, (like saying he’s top 10, not top 5) for hating. Or saying Kobe is clearly a lesser player than Jordan is somehow denying anyone a place among MJ’s pedestal when really that is the average point of view. Kobe is the 2nd greatest shooting guard of all time. Can’t that be enough? Why does Jordan have to come into every Kobe conversation, even when we are talking about the greatest Lakers the Kobe lovers (it’s what y’all are seen as, by almost everyone here) have to bring Jordan into the conversation, like your offended Kobe and Jordan aren’t compared every f*ckin day.

  • http://theurbangriot.com The NUPE

    Hmmm, can’t think of one of the top of my head so I would have to do some digging – the Pistons were an easy answer though to A ring. Also, most experts agree that Pau is a likely HOFer. ESPN did an article on it this summer talking about his stats are favorable compared to Worthy, he’s been the second best player on 2 championship teams, he’s got an olympic silver medal as well as a FIBA MVP award etc. Just like a lot of people will give Manu the nod for the hall, if Pau has another few productive years, it’s very likely he’ll get in. Nobody really knows the future of who will/won’t get in the HOF, but it’s silly to argue that Kobe won multiple rings without another HOFer on the team until multiple years from now.

  • Maniac

    I started to type a response, then I decided that you still wouldn’t understand so yeah there it is. *facepalm*

  • http://theurbangriot.com The NUPE

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=5-on-5-110712

    —–Link to an article mentioning how likely Pau is to enter the HOF—-
    Not the one I mentioned earlier, but I’m sure some people will want to argue ‘no way’ so thought I’d try to find it.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    I see your point, but I don’t think of Pau Gasol as a HoFer, just a good player, who has a great fundamental skill set. If Pau played like a HoFer, Lakers win three straight. Also people forget with the Grizzles, Pau choked every year in the playoffs. I am not a fan of Pau Gasol, to me overrated by most. I would trade him for Howard and keep Bynum. BOOK IT!!

  • Maniac

    Good point NUPE. I agreed with Seed, but I wasn’t going to go as far as saying that no player on that team can’t make the HOF because I believe Gasol might. I am only saying that the teams Kobe won with isn’t as great as the other dynasties.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Maniac, Ok so I just Reread all of my comments and the responses to them. The only thing we really disagree on (other than all-time rankings) is the word slight. Seriously, go back and look.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    If you don’t understand why the two greatest Shooting Guards with multiple rings and similar skill sets are often compared then I can’t help you on that one. I do love Kobe from an athlete/fan perspective so i’m not offended by that, but do keep me and Seed out of the same sentence please. I never feel urges to Book Things!!! so that alone separates us. I will concede to KB being a poor mans MJ. It just sounds weird. Like Steve Nash is a poor mans John Stockton… but sure.

  • Maniac

    I never said Kobe is definitely greater than Magic. In my opinion, he is, but I can see one arguing that he isn’t. My whole argument has been that the only logical way Magic can truly rank over Kobe is his accomplishments and now that I am looking back, Magic doesn’t even have a lot compared to Kobe. So basically, the only way Magic is greater than Kobe is if you like him more, favor his skill set and/or intangibles more (which I have pointed out that it is splitting hairs if you continue to rank Jordan oh so mighty high and Kobe so low when they have the same skill set), you nitpick with all of Magic’s legacy vs. Kobe’s, or if you’re holding out on giving Kobe the torch which is understandable. If you agree with that than yes we probably have similar views.

  • http://theurbangriot.com The NUPE

    Kobe is a great player, nobody denies that. Most would say MJ is the best ever with the likes of Magic, Bird, Wilt and Oscar etc coming in a close second. Many would add Kobe to the list of coming in as a second. Because Magic is on the list (west is not by the way), it’s a worthy argument (pun intended) to say who was the greatest Laker between Magic and Kobe. I say they were just different. Magic is the team player who made an impact as a team leader, getting everyone else involved and by really controlling/running the offense. Kobe is more a individual talent who made an impact by dominating the ball and scoring. Both great players but in very different ways. No need to argue who was better because there is no way to ‘prove’ it. If you put more value on getting your team involved, floor leadership, passing etc, then Magic is your guy. If you put more value on scoring, athletic ability and tenacious (but posibly overrated) defense then Kobe is your guy. Personally I like Magic and if I had to start a team with any one player, that’s who I would take. On the other hand, if I had to win just one game and it came down to the fourth quarter and needed somebody to carry the team I’d take Kobe (as a Laker great but MJ overall). I’m not a Kobe hater nor am I a huge MJ fan. But to argue about the greatest players ever who never met in their prime is just silly as no way to prove anything.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Maniac, Who you got in the Finals this year? Realistically who do you think will be there and also who do you want to be there? My legitimate guess is Lakers/Heat. And my choice if it were mine would be Lakers/Heat lol.

  • Maniac

    I don’t like the term “poor man’s” for those comparisons. How about Kobe is a middle-classed man’s Jordan lol.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    I understand why they are compared. I said they shouldn’t be. Because all of us here, know the differences, or should. When was the last time someone presented a great argument comparing Their all around games? Jordan is just clearly better, a waste of a comparison and thusly a waste of time. I’m down to compare their post games, or their abilities as purely scorers. I just feel like spending our time on a dead topic like those two as overall players is a waste of time.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    @The NUPE
    The article states 2 No’s, 1 Sure, 1 Yes and 1 Not Yet for Pau Gasol. So if Pau is traded he is no longer in HOF discussion. Pau best chance to get into HOF is winning one or two more rings considered 2nd best player on Kobe’s team.

  • Maniac

    I got Lakers vs Heat. The Lakers will be back to f*** s*** up lol and the Heat have some unfinished business. I think we’ll finally get that Kobe vs Bron finals. I really want that epic Finals, but I’m a native Chicago fan too. I can also see OKC or Chicago coming out as well. I call those Plan B teams. Mavs and Knicks are my sleepers. The Celtics and Spurs are DONE. All other teams are pretenders.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    If Kobe’s a 9.6 to MJ’s 9.9, then why has he not shot above 47% in any season? Why has he won only 2 scoring titles compared to MJ’s 10? Why does Kobe’s highest win-share in a season (15.3) only rank as MJ’s 10th highest? If they are as close as Kobe fans believe why is there such a significant gap in every statistical category between both cats?

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    @nbk
    I have read articles that really compared them and it made me and others realize, just how close they really are. If Kobe came into the NBA as the lead player on an upcoming team, he would have more MVP trophies with maybe less rings right now going for more. So people pentalize Kobe because he played with Shaq, but Kobe held his own. I have put up the playoff numbers in past and it surprised people after the 1st ring. Kobe held his own in the playoffs, destroying SAC and SA to get to Finals. Coach Pop and SAC coach always stated Kobe was the reason the Lakers would win. People forget get Duncan killed Shaq and took him out of his game. I am done too, but when Kobe gets seven rings. I TOLD YOU SO, will be my new name. OK

  • manu

    i hate kobe…i don’t like magic…but magic is the best laker ever…until kobe gets a 3rd finals mvp thats the way its gonna b

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Sure Seed.

  • Maniac

    @JTaylor – The same reason Russell, Wilt, and Kareem are on the same level despite what stats tell you.

  • manu

    duncan took shaq out of his game? o man ur high or somethin man shaq was beastin 00-02…his playoff stats during the run are the best in nba history…even better then jordan no contest …duncan can’t f*** wit shaq don’t b silly

  • http://theurbangriot.com The NUPE

    @Seed: Read the article again. 4 of the 5 opinions say he will get in. David Thorpe only said not YET, which means (imo) most likely will earn it, but may not. Again, not a clear cut answer but 4 of 5 ‘experts’ (if that’s what you want to call ESPN analyst) are saying he will make it in.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Yeah my “B teams” are the same also. Except if it comes to that it sounds like you’ll be rooting for Chi town while i’ll be repping Durantula and Nick Collison lol. And I agree with the rest of what you said also. Man i’m ready for the leather to get tossed up and get this season started!

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    The Knicks, are a sleeper? to do what?

  • Maniac

    Shaq has three finals MVPs with the Lakers too. I guess Laker Shaq = Magic and Laker Shaq > (Laker Kareem = Laker Worthy = West = Laker Wilt) > Baylor? Yep, sure thing kiddo…..

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Actually the stats/skills tell me that Wilt/Kareem are better than Russell despite ring count. Their individual dominance cancels out whatever advantage Russell’s 11 rings has over them.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    @JTaylor, If MJ played with Shaq he wouldn’t have any scoring titles or MVP’s during those years either. COME ON MAN!!!

  • Maniac

    Knicks are a threat to the Heat and Bulls. No one is saying they’ll come out the East, but they are a threat. I’m ready to see some games, but I’m even more excited to see how this miniature free agency period will work up until the trade deadline.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Sure they are.

  • Maniac

    Russell is probably the only player who I don’t account stats for AT ALL (outside of his rebounding numbers). I don’t agree that Russell is inferior to either and he is in fact the greatest player of all time.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Maniac, you are right, if Knicks could have gotten by Celtics, I predicted them beating Heat and putting them out the playoffs last year. With Melo, Amare, Billups and Landry playing the previous game experience together. They will be better. If Knicks can swing a trade for Paul or he comes later. Lebron,Wade and Bosh join together for nothing, because a Paul, Melo, Amare tandem is WAY better.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    So it’s Shaq’s fault that Kobe wasn’t ready to play 35+ mins during his first 2 seasons. The excuses Kobe fans come up with as to why his numbers don’t match up to a certain 2 god are ridiculous.

  • http://theurbangriot.com The NUPE

    It’s hard to ‘discount’ rings when you are the focal-point of the team. To get 11 rings in 13 seasons is something I doubt we’ll ever see again. If Russ did that in the 80′s, 90′s or 00′s after (after the game got really marketed) it’s likely he would be in more discussions about greatest of all time. It’s a sham in many ways that wilt/kareem/shaq seet to get more credit. BTW since he won his last two championships as a player-coach, did he get two rings each of thoughs seasons? I doubt it, but thought I’d ask.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Didn’t Russell easily average over 5 block per game for his career? I have heard people say numbers as astronomical as 8 BPG…

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    JTaylor21, we all know you are a Kobe, Laker fan, so stop with Kobe can’t measure up. You know kid is a winner and he will not rest until he has more rings than MJ and MJ knows this too. BOOK IT!!

  • Maniac

    Whoah now Seed don’t go that far. I’m not so sure that Paul, Melo, and Amare are better than the Bron, Wade, & Bosh. I can say that they fit better together, but it’s too close to say that they are overall better. CP3 would also have to take a paycut to join the Knicks, but we’ll see what happens. Should be interesting. The Heat will need an answer for CP3 and the Knicks will need an answer for Wade. Bron cannot guard Melo and vice versa. Amare cannot guard Bosh and vice versa.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    What makes Russell the greatest player of all-time? His 11 rings? Well, if that’s the case, Sam Jones’ the 2nd greatest player followed by Hondo, Tom Heinsohn and Robert Horry. It’s a simplistic and borderline stupid way of rankings players based off ring count.

  • Maniac

    I’m not going to get into the Russell thing because if people can’t comprehend simple things like the greatness of Kobe, then it would be almost impossible to even grasp an eighth of just how great Bill Russell is. He is indeed the greatest player of all time. I’d also like to mention he won 2 rings in college and an Olympic medal. Like I said, I don’t look at stats AT ALL to compare Russell to anyone, but it is important to remember his rebounding numbers, possible block numbers, and assist numbers as a big man. NUPE – Good question by the way; idk what he got because the players didn’t get rings every year back then (at least I’ve read that somewhere before).

  • http://theurbangriot.com The NUPE

    I’d take Knicks with CP3 is over the Heat. Largely because they are a better fit and secondly they have a stronger supporting cast. Turiaf, Felton and Billups as a supporting cast isn’t horrible – certainly better than the Heats.

  • http://theurbangriot.com The NUPE

    @JTaylor21: Bill Russels rings were earned as the centerpeice/focal-point of the team. None of the other guys you named were the focal-point of any team. IMO rings matter when you are the primary player on the team but they don’t matter at all when you’re not even a starter/key part of the team. There are a ton of players with rings (e.g. Luke Walton, Adam Morrison etc.) that would never fall into the top 100 players all time. And then players without rings (e.g. Malone, Barkley etc) that are worthy of top 50 consideration. At the end of the day this is a team game and you can’t measure a player strictly by rings and say one is better than the other. But at some point in time you have to give it up for the primary guy who wins 11 rings in 13 seasons.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    ^No Felton, he’s on Portland. No Billups, they ain’t having both of them.

  • http://theurbangriot.com The NUPE

    ^ I meant Fields not Felton, my bad. We don’t know if they’ll have both CP3 and Billups or not – I doubt it too, but you never know.

  • http://theurbangriot.com The NUPE

    Meant Field not Felton. Good catch. Don’t know what will happen with Billups – would be the best back-up pg in the league and likely play some shooting guard. But you never know.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Maniac, How are Bill Russell’s 11 titles in the 50s & 60s more impressive than Jordan’s 6 in the 90′s? Do you know how many teams there were back then? About 10. Do you know anything about how much they got paid? Or how a lot of players had second jobs in the offseason? Please, put these things into context. Playing professional basketball was not even an intelligent career choice financially back then, let alone the dream job kids everywhere aspired for that it turned into.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    I can’t comprehend the greatness of Kobe? What? So because I refuse to put him on the same pedestal as MJ, I don’t have the right to disagree with your stance on Russell being the GOAT. How many 1960 Celtics games have you seen? All you’re going off is hearsay. Well I can do the same with Wilt. If Russell blocked 8 shots, Wilt blocked 12. If Russell dished out 5 assists, Wilt dished 8. If Russell grabbed 22rbs, Wilt snagged 30. See how easy that was. There’s no factual evidence to Russell’s defensive prowess, just folk tales told by former teammates and opponents. What the numbers do tell us is that Wilt was a superior offensive player, superior rebouder and passer. That makes him a better individaul player in my book.

  • http://www.facebook.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    Knicks are a sleeper to make the Eastern conference finals, if that means anything? But only if the Heat and Bulls are in the other bracket.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Man discussions are so much better on here when NBA ball is in the near future. I’m outski. Talk to you gents tomorrow

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    ^ that’s fair.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    That was too gametime.

  • Maniac

    Now you see what I mean when I said Russell can’t be comprehended ? I’m not going to get into this. If you were half as smart as you claim you are you would notice that i have Wilt above MJ as well so that should mean thatrings have little to do with the situation. Stop trying to question my knowledge of basketball history because I’ve proved I’m highly educated. The number of teams fluctuated back then. Yes I know the NBA ‘s financial situation in the 60′s.

  • Maniac

    JTaylor you have already shown that you are a supreme a$$clown so I wont attempt trying to argue with the likes of you.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    LeBron JAmes is a better Laker than Kobe Bryant will ever be.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    What have you proven? That you’re the only cat on here that agrees with everything that comes out of seed’s mouth.
    This cat just labeled himself “highly educated” then turned around and called someone an “a**clown”. Ouch.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    What you have proven is that you don’t understand. And you have also proven that you are delusional about what you do know “Now you see what I mean when I said Russell can’t be comprehended” – you have as much evidence of Russel’s greatness as all of us. Only you can’t comprehend that. Your 19 years old. You haven’t seen anything to earn the right to such an arrogant opinion about what people can and can’t comprehend about anything that happened 50 years ago.

  • Kilo

    @Teddy-the-Bear
    Are you feeling okay? I’m a Lker’s fan born in 1994. Mu father told me Magic Johnson is the best to EVER put on a Laker uniform period.

  • Maniac

    I’m 20 thank you very much. If you want to sit there and try to corner me because of my age lol then go ahead. Funny how that if you didn’t know my age, you would have little way to rationalize my opinions. Some of you guys are unbelievably beyond ignorant, ridiculous, or just plain stupid that it’s mind boggling. I don’t understand? Hah! You have no idea who I am, how I’ve been brought up, what I’ve experienced, and what I do and don’t know. I don’t have to explain myself and what I know to you or anyone else. My research (visual, audible, and tactile) and objectivity trumps the majority of the foolishness you guys constantly throw out. Some of you wouldn’t know reason if it dunked on your head, put it’s nuts in your face, and told you it was good reasoning. Get real.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    No your immaturity sticks out like a baboons ass. Your exact age is just proof to where that ignorant sense of intelligence comes from.

  • Maniac

    Care to elaborate on this “ignorant sense of intelligence”? lol. I find your commentary humorous.

  • MUBWAR

    the knicks beating the Heat…knicks fans need to stop smoking them funny cigarettes

  • http://www.facebook.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    Tim Doherty blah blah blah blah blah cmon Seed you can do better that that… 7 rings for Kobe? I’ll remember you said that. BOOK IT!

  • http://www.facebook.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    Why can’t the Knicks beat the Heat they had a better record in the first half of the season last year before the trade, whats up?

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    They play no defense.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Quit with the bullsh*t. You’re the moron that said “MJ has numerous flaws”. You’re the moron that proclaimed Russell the undisputed GOAT based off hearsay. You’re just a 20yr old that’s wet behind the ears and breath smelling like similac.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    And Maniac, it’s something that you just can’t comprehend……

  • Mburb321

    Maniac I think a trio of cp3,melo,and amare would be more dangerous then bron,wade,bosh. When you see how well paul orchestrated the offense against LA imagine what he would do with a wing and inside presence of melo and amare. The pieces fit much better where as bron and wade share the same skill set. If miami upgraded the center spot I would give them the nod though.

  • http://www.facebook.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    sometimes a good defense is a good offense… Heat might try to slooowww the game down while Knicks droppin 125

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    That might happen once or twice. How many teams have ever even made the finals without playing defense? (you can get to the number without counting).

  • http://www.facebook.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    oh wait Seed at 7:36pm was wayy better my bad lol

  • Maniac

    MJ does have “numerous flaws” you a$$wipe and I did not say Russell was the undisputed GOAT. I said in my opinion, he is indeed the GOAT. There is no such thing as an “undisputed GOAT”. Stop putting words in my mouth. JTaylor & NBK – I honestly think that the two of your brains combined isn’t enough to form a decently rational person. Enough said.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    There’s no reason that I can see, for anyone to think the Knicks can win a 7 game series against a healthy Miami or Chicago. Or Boston for that matter.

  • Maniac

    Oh yeah Mburb321 I wasn’t saying that the Heat are better than the Knicks + CP3. I agree. I was simply saying that it’s not that easy to call. I already said the Knicks are a better fit as a team.

  • Mburb321

    are we talking about the current knicks or a cp3 knicks?

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Lol maniac, your all knowing opinion is always “spot on.”

  • Maniac

    CP3 Knicks. The current Knicks are not contenders right now. They are just a threat to the ECF. CP3 would put them over the top

  • Mburb321

    i heard the schedules are out but i cant find them

  • shutupallenp

    how many scoring titles does russell have or even seasons above a 20 point average? Individual greatness has to go along with winning to be considered the greatest, most rings def, he played with allstars and hof too Heinsohn, bob cousy, k.c. jones. and how come the bulls have the record for most wins in a season?
    I dont give wikipedia much credit but you can verify the numbers if you disagree “His NBA career personal averages show him to be an average scorer (15.1 points career average), a poor free throw shooter (56.1%), and average overall shooter from the field”
    GOAT i think not argue wilt, but he doesnt have the chips argue kareem, and i say magic johnson made things easy for him. Jordan should be hands down everyone’s GOAT

  • shutupallenp

    Oh and Jordan is the highest point-per-game average ever, above wilt, kareem, and most def russell and kobe is never gonna get near that

  • http://www.facebook.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    I can see plenty off reasons 1. You KNOW they’re going to get buckets, I really don’t see any team being able to shut them down offfensively, even Landry getting offensive rebounds is a HUGE threat. 2. They have an established big man that that can score and score in bunches in Amare. Always a necesity in the east is someone who can score inside. That was the Heats flaw (Bosh). 3. Melo is clutcy, you cant deny it. Give me 7 seconds and I’m drawing up a play for Melo and I’ma be REAL confident about my chances. 4. Billups has playoff experience and not just playoff experience, CHAMPIONSHIP WINNING experience. Mr. Big Shot isn’y Robert Horry quite yet, but that can all change with one top-of-the-key-knockdown-koofie. 5. Chris Paul. So there are some reasons why I can see my boys making a push in that beautiful Mecca they call the Garden. But there is one reason I see they WON’t get a chip (this year)… I need to see improved defense. Which I DO expect to see.

  • shutupallenp

    oh and people really sleep on billups, dont you understand that hes gonna be healthy? look what he did with the pistons, these knicks are 10x better

  • http://www.facebook.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    10x better than what?

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    I understand Chris Paul would make NY considerably better. But that just isn’t happening this season, NY doesn’t have any trade assets that anyone wants. With the roster they have they are going to have enough trouble winning in the 1st round. Amare and Melo can be the best offensive players in the world, it doesn’t change how success is achieved in the playoffs. That team cannot threaten the bulls or heat as currently constructed, they know it, it’s why they are looking to get Chris Paul or Deron Williams next summer.

  • shutupallenp

    Jordan 30.7 points per game average including the mid season return from baseball, and the stint with the wizards. Kobe 25.3 ppg . u might say 5.5 points is nothing just think kobe is as close to averaging under 20ppg as he is to catching jordan, oh and btw i doubt kobes putting up more than 25ppg this season

  • Conor O.

    Bryant, first; Johnson, second; & Kareem, third.

  • Far

    I like nbk’s way of thinking.

  • Maniac

    Shutupallenp – Do yourself and favor do what your name saids.

  • Mburb321

    I hope the knicks resign Shawne Williams, didnt know much about him until last year but he seemed to be very versatile defender able to guard the 3,4,and smaller 5 positions. He also had a nice 3 ball and he would be cheap to resign. If the knicks were able to resign him and possible pick up kurt thomas or pryzbilla they could be better on D this year.

  • http://www.facebook.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    nbk you said you can’t think of a reason.. I gave you 5 reasons none of which you have refuted. Except maybe the Chris Paul one but we already know thats happening. Just like Melo said he was coming, so is CP3… Billups and Iman Shumpert, Bill Walker and cash, plenty of cash. What was Deron Williams traded for? Devin Harris and poop.

  • shutupallenp

    maniac do yourself a favor and abort yourself, your arguments are weak and have no basis in reality, so now i destroyed your russell is goat argumentwhere do you go from here?

  • shutupallenp

    He’s a maniac maniac and he’s a troll
    he’s trolling like he never trolled before.
    there is no way russell is greatest of all time

  • Mburb321

    When comparing Kobe to MJ his scoring avg shouldnt be what you look at because his 25.3 isnt a true reflection of his scoring ability. His first 2/3 years on the bench and also sharing the ball with shaq have really lowered it. His shooting % is a much better measure. Mike didnt take bad shots, he didnt shoot fall away 3′s with 3 dudes on him. He didnt go 1 on 4 thinking MISMATCH. His decision making was much much better and as Phil said his huge hands made him more of a threat in the post!

  • shutupallenp

    than the pistons that one the chip, they just need a Prince type maybe AK-47 that would be a great fit

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Refute, they lost convincingly, to Boston, with the same team, except Iman Shumpert, a couple months ago. Your reasons are not real reasons the Knicks can beat the Heat or Bulls in a series. They are more or less reasons the Knicks can become a team that wins. Or may win a game or two in a series. But I’ll go through each one but #5 for you. (these are opinions I don’t want to come off like I’m condescending) 1) is definitely true, New York can definitely score. But are they so good at it that it renders their defense irrelevant? In the regular season, against Minnesota? Or in game 3 of the first round? Yeah sure. But in the playoffs, (presumably the second round) against Miami or Chicago, they will score, but they will also go through stretches where they’ll struggle, you don’t beat the best teams in the NBA by being just good at offense. Especially in a 7 game season. 2) Amare, who is basically the individual version of the Knicks as a team. He’s pretty much unstoppable down low on offense. But he is a horrendous rebounder, and routinely gets destroyed by other bigs. He hasn’t been the catalyst behind a winning series in 3 years, and that was on a more well rounded team, that despite popular perception, actually did play decent defense. 3) there is 47:53 (X 4-7 games) left in the game that you forgot. 4) Chauncey Billups has not only been getting worse by the year since he got too Denver. And the offense in NY is pretty dependent on the PG play to be efficient. Which is one thing Billups is not.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    But he is also (supposedly) unhappy in New York.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    @ shutupallenp: MJ’s career ppg average is 30.1. The same as Wilt.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys6VpgI9BHA datkid

    I don’t understand how anyone thinks a team made up of amare and melo is going to beat anyone… you need to play defense at some point lol. even with chris paul…..

  • http://www.facebook.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    Billups and Amare got hurt in the playoffs vs the Celtics. But it sounds like you agree that they are easily good enough to make it to the second round this year. Miami has not shown me that they are able to stop a high scoring team. The beat Chicago and Boston, not high tempo. Lost to the Mavericks. Why will they be able to stop NY? Chicago, they have the best team defense I totally think they can match up. Amare does not get destroyed down low that is exagerrated, any team would take him in a second. Sure he’s no Charles Oakley on the boards but he’s a better post scorer than Patrick Ewing… yea I said it. The other 47 minutes of the game is when Melo scores his other 30 points. Billups changes how the Knicks offense runs. Not sure if you had watched much Knicks basketball prior to the trade but the offense before Billups was up and down shoot every 3 pointer you see. After Billups came over the offense, I wouldnt say was more efficient, but there are a lot less bad shots. Thats actually a good thing, I don’t think D’Antonis system works period for a championship caliber team. Sorry this took so long I was watching Duke get destroyed by Jared Sullinger and Co.

  • http://www.facebook.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    Datkid you think the Nets will be better with your boy Deron Williams?

  • shutupallenp

    I disagree with you teddy-the-bear quote your source please on nba.com MJ=30.12 wilt =30.07 you cant round down jordan and round up wilt, by that logic wilt=30.5 and mj=30.1 its a slight difference but a distinguishable one. just for perspective Kobe is ranked tenth on this list behind Iverson, Wade and Lebron

  • shutupallenp

    sorry wilt=30.05 not 30.5

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    The Knicks were worse offensively, and defensively after the Melo trade. Miami just made the finals, and had the 2nd best defense in the league. Chicago the best. And Amar’e struggles are not exaggerated, look them up. 31 & 31 came again Amare and the Knicks for example, Blake Griffin’s 42 and 17 came against Amare and the Knicks. Nazr Muhammad’s 21 & 22 came against Amare and the Knicks. Look what Duncan used to do to Amare and the Suns. his struggles are documented and real – and they do not and have not bided well for him in the playoffs.

  • Maniac

    Lol they both are 30.1 regardless. Wade’s and LeBron’s might go down before they retire.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    ^ Okay you’re right then, I looked at Basketball Reference, which rounds to the nearest tenth. So yeah, 30.1 if you round. I was not aware of the 30.12 vs. 30.07. I guess Jordan does edge him out a bit there. Carry on.

  • shutupallenp

    and kobe is declining too at 25.3 hes been steady declining the past 4 years he peaked in 06 and has dropped 2-4 ppg every season, by the time hes done he will be around 21 ppg if he retires in two years

  • Maniac

    Jordan – 30.1, Wilt – 30.1, Lebron – 27.7, Baylor – 27.4, West – 27.0, Iverson – 26.7, Pettit – 26.4, Oscar – 25.7, Wade – 25.4, Kobe – 25.3, Gervin – 25.1, Mailman – 25.0 … That’s top 12.

  • http://www.facebook.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    I know they were worse so was there record, I didn’t say they were more efficient I said they run their offense a little different with Billups and take less bad shots. I LIKE THAT. I can care less about stats, just making the playoffs was good enough for me last year. And dude I’m not looking up stats you’re exaggerating again. Look up Kobe’s, Mj’s or LeBrons stats in the garden Stat Man. What Duncan did against Amare? Cmon son!! (ed lover voice) this all has nothing to do with the Knicks making a playoff push.

  • Tofu

    anywhooooooooo. this season Kobe’s gonna move up the scoring list.
    only 728 to take 5th place.that’s like 11.03 ppg if he plays in all 66 games…not bad..me gusta.so y’all can go on and debate bout this.i’ma just focus on kobe’s career before it’s over.

  • http://www.facebook.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    we all know Jordan has the best point per game average… thats not debatable. Iverson is number 6 before Kobe at number 10… hmmmmmmmmmmm not bad

  • Maniac

    Shutup – Kobe will not drop down that low. I think he will average 25-27 this year. Kobe plays five more years MAX. He has 3 years left on this deal and I figure he will either retire at the end of it, sign a small extension or one last small contract.

  • shutupallenp

    im done beating a dead horse but heres my last fact mj fg%.497 kobe .454 as for the slight advantage in the long range mj 3p% .327 bryant .339 and lets point out that the 3 point line was brought back in for majority of bryants career and bryant avg 2.5 more 3′s per game (mj 1.7 3pa bryant 3.8)

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    What? We are talking about the Knicks, as currently constructed, having a shot against the Heat or Bulls. And those stats I gave you were the career Hughes for Kevin Love, Blake Griffin, & Nazr Muhammad. And I showed them too you to prove that Amare’s struggles are not exaggerated. We aren’t talking about them making a playoff push, they will be a playoff fixture for the next few years. Idk I think it’s pretty clear that the Knicks aren’t ready to compete, like I said, if they were, they wouldn’t be trying to get a star player. They would be getting Role
    Players. Like Miami, Chicago, Oklahoma City, and Dallas are trying to do right now.

  • shutupallenp

    i think he will avg around 23-24 ppg as history has shown us over the last 6 years of his career and his declining ppg avg, if he plays 7 more years i would expect his ppg to be right around 22-21 ppg.
    @maniac you can put more than one place behind a decimal

  • shutupallenp

    1.Michael Jordan 30.12
    2.Wilt Chamberlain 30.07
    3.LeBron James 27.69
    4.Elgin Baylor 27.36
    5.Jerry West 27.03
    6.Allen Iverson 26.66
    7.Bob Pettit 26.36
    8.George Gervin 26.18
    9.Oscar Robertson 25.68
    10Dwyane Wade 25.43
    11Kobe Bryant 25.27
    Kobe is number 11 sorry to bust your bubble but he didnt crack the top ten

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys6VpgI9BHA datkid

    @gametimeweezy The nets are WAYYY better with deron williams then they were without him. but I don’t think even if the knicks had d.will it would be enough. They need a big defensive center lol and for the record I’m pretty sure miami has DESTROYED certain high scoring teams.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys6VpgI9BHA datkid

    maniac stop arguing with bulls22 in disguise… jeez

  • shutupallenp

    stop with that bulls22 sh@t he posted on this thread already and he sounds like a dumba$$ im not that guy, i have my own opinions and i dont like the bulls never have, i grew up a knicks fan they broke my heart when ewing decided to fingeroll, thats when i became a fan of players instead. and if i did a=have a name like that it would be spurs22 dipsh!t

  • http://www.facebook.com/gametimeweezy Gametimeweezy

    You wanted a reason why they can beat the Bulls or the Heat and I gave you a few, and they will beat them.. they just need someone to help Amare on the block if they hope to compete a best of 7 series you right.

  • Maniac

    You should look at the official NBA/ABA list, not just the NBA list. Kobe is #10 on the official NBA/ABA list.

  • Maniac

    Anyways yeah datkid I’m not going to concentrate on that idiot anymore lol. I’m out

  • shutupallenp

    thought we were talking bout NBA stats, um only thing that changes is gervin from 8-11 so kobe #10 and declining

  • http://slamonline.com Bryan Crawford

    Bean…

  • bigmike100

    1. kareem 2. wilt 3. kobe 4. magic 5. jerry #jussayin

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys6VpgI9BHA datkid

    sorry I really believe that only bulls22 would be stupid enough to change his name to shutupallenp, pretend to be someone else and then honestly expect us to believe him. lmfao

  • E

    Nobody cares what this fat,lazy piece of mierta thinks anymore,only reason he wrote a book,what a friggin joke,coulda been the best ever,barely makes the top 20 now…keep your opinion to yourself,big fool,the only people who buy this bag of crap you call a book are dumber than your voice

  • shutupallenp

    well only a lil kid would call himself datkid and expect to be taken serious. who was pretending to be someone else? why would someone post as two different people, this site is basically anonymous, and I dont share any of the same views as bulls22 so maybe datkid and maniac are the same person or boyfriends
    @bigmike same list just switch magic and kobe.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys6VpgI9BHA datkid

    you share the same irrational hate for allenp that only bulls22 would have. and no me and maniac aren’t the same person I’ve been on here wayyy longer. and I’m not in love with kobe. try again.

  • shutupallenp

    i have no hate for allenp, im just not changing my name, we had a disagreement and i moved on. I dont know who bulls22 is and have no affiliation with him whatsoever and if you’ve been here so long can you not see the different opinions or writing styles. and if i have to be more convincing i dont like the bulls cant stand rose and actually use facts to back my arguments up

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys6VpgI9BHA datkid

    that’s true those are things he wouldn’t do… lmao. fine. you’re not bulls22.

  • Justin

    I think it was easier for Magic to lead the team he had compared to Kobe. Magic’s team was one of the top teams that ever played. Those Lakers teams that Kobe and Shaq were on can’t make that claim. Also, Shaq was always the man on his team. If he were to have gone to the Bulls and joined Michael, don’t think for one second that MJ wouldn’t have torn into him as much as he did everyone else, especially if he came in out of shape. Phil has said many times the triangle is built for centers and together they would have done more than 3peat. The Bulls would have won 8 in a row if Michael hadn’t retired the first time and that was with Bill Cartwright and Luc Longley as the centers.
    The Magic vs. Michael argument is dumb, especially when you have Magic himself saying “There’s Michael Jordan and then there’s the rest of us”. Magic and Kobe are probably 1 and 1A at this point but it’s a lot closer than most think. It just depends on what you’re basing your argument on. Accomplishments or skill set as a player

  • shutupallenp

    lmao thanx for that

  • BBaller

    Who gives a Sh*t, better things to discuss ATM. The NBA is back on, 352 comments really!

  • Justin

    I’m just smh @Gametimeweezy for saying Amare is a better post scorer than Ewing

  • http://www.facebook.com/#!/joe.l.brewer3 BlackPhantom

    *sigh* of course the greatest Laker is Magic

  • http://www.slamonline.com UNFROZEN CAVEMAN LAWYER

    ENIGMATIC, ONCE AGAIN, PROVING WHY HE IS THAT DUDE. CHILLIN UP NORTH.
    LOOKS LIKE THIS THREAD GOT CRAZY.

  • hushabomb

    Let’s start with some questions. If you are playing basketball, do ya wanna play with a guy who gets 20 points or 10 assists. Most would play with a guy who gets 10 assists. Now if you had a chance to play with Kobe or Magic, who would ya pick? I’d say Magic. Why? Cos his ability to make plays. Cos 10000 assists over his career. Cos Byron Scott, Coop, Worthy, Green, Kareem, Rambis and Wilkes and all the other Lakers made money off of his assists. Cos he knew where and when to get a player the ball and will always exploit a match up. And most of all, he made you believe that whatever you did will win you a ball game. He put the team on his back and made it “our team”.

    Kobe is a very skilled player, has evolved time and time again to be the best player bar none. Yet an argument can be made that Kobe made the Lakers successful due to the triangle offence. What I mean is that Kobe tried to have individual success (06-07 in particular) and yet it didn’t work.

    I’d have more fun and success playing with Magic then Kobe.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys6VpgI9BHA datkid

    yeah justin… that comment by him was questionable… REAL questionable.

  • BBaller

    No wonder why this story has so many hits, when ever the words KOBE,SHAQ and the Lakers are mentioned everyone gets there knickers in a knot, like little school boys squabbling over petty Sh*t.

  • Shifty

    How did Kobe make all those 1st defensive teams. I don’t rate his defense at such a level. Ecspecially when u have people like decade having a block a game. Or gaurds pocketing 2 + steals a game. Seriously…..how did he get all those defensive 1st team selections!

  • Shifty

    Meant to say dwade. Not decade.

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