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Monday, January 9th, 2012 at 8:35 am  |  97 responses

Post Up: Rock Bottom

Washington falls to 0-8, and other NBA things from last night.

by Abe Schwadron | @abe_squad

Greetings from the NBA basement, folks. The Wolves ran up the score in D.C. yesterday, and Washington now sits at 0-8, with no signs of anything getting better. Thankfully, there were five other games on the docket last night. Hope you all consumed some hoops in between all the NFL playoff action over the past two days. Props to Pete for writing us through a crazy weekend of games. Let’s get it.

Timberwolves 93, izards 72

No, that’s not a typo. Starting today, I will not be including the letter “W” in Washington’s mascot name until they get a win. Let’s hope the izards can get it done on Tuesday against Toronto, because after that it’s Chicago, Philly twice, Houston, Oklahoma City, Denver and Boston. I’d prefer not to spend much time on this game, but it’s worth noting that with Mike Beasley out of the lineup, Derrick Williams played 30 minutes and finished with 14 points and 7 boards, Kevin Love did his thing as always (20 points, 16 rebounds, 3 assists, 3 steals) and Ricky Rubio toyed with defenders all afternoon long. Rubio had 14 assists and 13 points, enough to make a izards fan bang their head against the wall when you consider how he ended up in Minnesota. In case you forgot. A major change is desperately needed in the nation’s capital. Like, major change. The izards are uninspired, uninterested, very terrible at basketball—they shot 35 percent yesterday from the field and 56 percent from the free throw line—and there’s a report that Rashard Lewis has quit on the team. Beautiful! John Wall must hate his life (and shooting 3-for-10 with 10 points doesn’t help, but he did go hammer to the hoop once). As excruciating as the izards are these days, the Wolves are one of the most exciting teams in the L right now despite being just 3-5, and a League Pass must on a nightly basis.

I’ll leave you with this, before we move on to more professional teams in action last night: Is this defense?

Magic 104, Kings 97

Just when he was stringing together a handful of vintage games, Dwight Howard laid an egg last night. But thanks to season-high scoring days from Jason Richardson (22) and Big Baby Davis (20 off the bench), and 3-for-20 three-point shooting from the Kings, Orlando escaped Sacramento with a 6-3 record. Howard got into early foul trouble and played just 20 minutes, finishing with 5 points on 1-of-2 field goals (3-5 from the line) and 4 rebounds. He got his first board in the fourth quarter and scored his first points with just under 7 minutes to go in the game. Hedo Turkoglu and Ryan Andersen (19 points, 11 rebounds) each hit big three-pointers down the stretch to pull away from the Kings in the final minute. Tyreke Evans had it going for the Kings, and he finished with 28 points on 10-16 shooting plus 8 dimes, while DeMarcus Cousins chipped in a double-double on 16 points and 10 rebounds. Jimmer Fredette continues to struggle early this year, as he finished with only 2 points in 14 minutes of action.

Thunder 108, Spurs 96

After getting the news on Sunday morning that reserve point guard Eric Maynor is out for the season with a torn ACL, the Thunder took down the Spurs behind 21 points, 10 rebounds and 7 assists from Kevin Durant. And he might have notched his first career triple-double if not for the fact that he sat out the entire fourth quarter (along with the rest of OKC’s starting lineup) after helping Oklahoma City put the game out of striking distance. Rookie Reggie Jackson got the bulk of what would have been Maynor’s minutes at backup point, and he finished with 11 points (4-9 FG), 4 assists and 2 turnovers, while James Harden poured in 20 off the bench. The win marked the first time this season an NBA team has won on three consecutive nights, and OKC joined the Heat as the first teams in the league to get to 8 wins. San Antonio allowed the Thunder to shoot a tick better than 51 percent from the field, and were led in scoring by Gary Neal, with 18 points. Rookie Kawhi Leonard had a nice night off the bench—13 points, 10 boards. Oklahoma City finally gets a day off today, before traveling to Memphis and New Orleans for a mid-week back-to-back.

Suns 109, Bucks 93

Steve Nash had 10 assists in the first quarter, and the Suns led by as many as 28 points as Phoenix got back to .500 at 4-4 on the year. Nash finished with 17 dimes in all, plus 10 points. The biggest beneficiary of Nashty’s helping hand was Marcin Gortat, who dropped 18 points on 9-for-10 field goal shooting—looks like he might nearly be back at full health—and as a team, Phoenix shot 56 percent. The Bucks’ leading scorer ended up being rookie Tobias Harris out of Tennessee, who scored 15 points in 23 minutes, while Brandon Jennings had a rough game, scoring just 5 points on 2-of-7 shooting. And how about this nugget from the AP recap: “The Suns beat the Bucks in Phoenix for the 24th straight time, the NBA’s second-longest active streak behind San Antonio’s 27 wins in a row at home over Golden State.” For perspective, Jennings was not yet born the last time Milwaukee won in PHX (1987). Sheesh!

Trail Blazers 98, Cavaliers 78

The Blazers bounced back after a curious drubbing at the hands of the Phoenix Suns on Friday night, beating the Cavaliers to a pulp thanks to 28 points from LaMarcus Aldridge and 24 from Wes Matthews. Portland held Cleveland to 37 percent field goal shooting, and the Cavaliers made just 3 of 24 three-pointers while turning the ball over 24 times. Antawn Jamison, the Cavs’ leading scorer, put up just 3 points on 1-of-8 shooting. But Kyrie Irving had another nice game, with 21 points, 4 assists, 4 rebounds (4 turnovers) and fellow rookie Tristan Thompson had 10 points, 5 boards and 3 blocks in limited action—he may not be a pretty player, but he’s active as hell. The fans in Portland were still cheering to the final buzzer…because they wanted the Blazers to top 100 points, winning everyone in attendance a free chalupa. Unfortunately, sportsmanship got in the way in the final seconds, and thousands at the Rose Garden went home hungry. Somehow, I think they’re still happy with the blowout W. Portland hosts the Clippers on Tuesday in what should be a huge game.

Lakers 90, Grizzlies 82

One Gasol brother had a fantastic game and his team won. The other had a terrible shooting night and his team lost. Pau’s final line included 13 points, 15 rebounds and 4 assists in 40 minutes, while Marc shot a woeful 0-for-9 from the field—though he did fill up the rest of the box score, with 11 boards, 7 assists, 4 steals and 3 blocks. Jokes aside, the two didn’t match up with one another much. Kobe Bryant dropped 26 points and 9 dimes to lead the Lake Show to a sixth straight home win (0-4 on the road). L.A. jumped out to a 31-22 lead after one quarter, and despite scoring just 12 points in the fourth, held off the Grizzlies, who got 19 points from Rudy Gay and 17 points from new addition Mareese Speights. Memphis got within four after rattling off six straight points to start the fourth quarter, but Kobe and crew made sure it never got closer than that. The Lakers won despite turning the ball over an astonishing 27 times (only 8 for Memphis), and despite the Grizzlies scoring 31 fast break points. But Los Angeles out-rebounded the Grizz 53-34, Andrew Bynum delivered a 15-15 double-double and Steve Blake made 3 threes off the bench (13 points).

Line of the Night: KD’s 21 points (5-9 FG, 10-10 FT), 10 rebounds, 7 assists in only 29 minutes.

Honorable Mention: Steve Nash — 17 assists and 10 points in 27 minutes.

Dunk of the Night: Rudy Gay delivers the put-back funk on Matt Barnes.

WTF of the Night: Hey, at least Jan Vesely’s looking good!

Tonight: Six games lined up for Monday, including the Rubios against the Raptors and the Bobcats’ return to New York—where last time those two hooked up, Boris Diaw got his groove on and Charlotte walked all over the Knicks. But the game of the night is Pacers at Sixers, which tips off at 7. Philly is 2-0 at home, while all five Indiana starters average double-digit points.

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  • mick

    Can I mention how right Slam and Lang were with Rubio, and how people who hated should apologise.

  • http://juan.garcia@computershare.com Marcelus Wallace

    Kobe’s “now-u-c-me-now-u-don’t reverse on the other side of the rim sneak dunk” was better than Gays’ put back.

  • MUBWAR

    then I should be the first apologist mick. Even though I have him on my fantasy team, I didn’t give him a chance with the PG play we have nowadays

  • tom

    Hey Abe, why don´t you call them Lizards until they…you know…. :)

  • Patrick

    ^LOL
    i’m going to use that.

  • http://nba.com/celtics lights out

    good one, tom. the Wizards are pathetic. Rashard Lewis has lost his mojo. I’m a Celtics fan, and I remember being scared whenever he caught the ball with even a little bit of space. now? he’s putting up 9 ppg while shooting 36 from the field and 22 from three. what’s the deal, ‘shard?

  • http://www.laumol.nl/weblog Laumol

    Lashington Lizards?

  • Hursty

    Please tell me someone else saw the end to the Kings/Magic game. The Kings just absolutely GAVE UP in the final minute.
    They gave up an offensive rebound with under 1.30 remaining, then on the next Magic play, they swung it to the corner to Ryan Anderson who hit a WIDE open 3. So lazy.
    They came back and hit a 3 to make it a 5pt game with 40 or so seconds remaining.
    Next 2 offensive possessions, Tyreke went kamikaze 1 vs 5 and got absolutely shut down both times.
    In between those plays, the Magic got a fastbreak lay-up. NOBODY even tried to contest the shot. JJ Hickson just let the ball fly right past him.
    It was shocking, upsetting and surreal to watch it.

  • http://blog.supersonicsoul.com/ tom

    thanks. I´m an old sonics fan. I´ve got similar memories. Just not scary ones. :)

  • http://sfjklf.com Jukai

    I really can’t believe how GOOD of a passer Rubio is. Here’s hoping the rest of his game catches up.
    Kobe still has it.
    As does Nash.
    LaMarcus Aldridge is probably the best power forward in the league, but I’m still uncertain if I’m gonna vote for him or Love in the all-star game..

  • Theking06

    lol @ tha free throw attempt …. d Wizards need help asap.

  • Mike From Spain

    It’d have been cool if Nash had played all the game , just to let him beat a record of assists in a game. He had 17 in 27 minutes… could he have gone up to 30? That’d been crazy …

  • Mike From Spain

    I root for Ricky Rubio, but I half expected a disaster with John Wall scoring 40 or something like that, because Wall is one of the fastest cats in the L… I must watch the game and see what happened, did Ricky defend well or was Washington so abysmal that Wall could do nothing?

  • Riggs

    The Lizards was horrible.

  • http://www.alllooksame.com Tarzan Cooper

    Who held kd to just 21? If only marc couldve scored. Lizards forever.

  • http://slamonline.com AlbertBarr

    @Hursty: I watched the Kings game. EVen when they play well they manage to lose do to lack of effort. The real question is why we weren’t able to get a lead when Dwight Howard SAT FOR THREE QUARTERS OF THE DAMN GAME.

  • http://slamonline.com AlbertBarr

    BUT they do seem to at least be having a little more fun and playing real basketball now that PW is gone.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    In a not to distant future Rubio will be the best pure (as in pass first, set up/run your team)PG in the league (other PG’s will be better overall players). SLAM was right about him, I’m glad to say I was too, for those of us watching him since the start of his career it has always been obvious that the kid had something very very special, that kind of special talent for passing, seeing the floor and running an offense that can’t be taught. It is still early, but I’m willing to bet that barring injury Rubio will go down in the history as one of the best passers/true PG’s ever. Very refreshing to watch him play in an era where the Derrick Roses of the NBA are considered kings and it seems that every PG thinks his most important objective is to get 20 points first, then take care of his team’s offense second. Visca Ricky!

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Ohh and Rashard Lewis has no professional pride what so ever, none.

  • http://slamonline.com/ Abe Schwadron

    Okay, I’ve been convinced…Lizards it is. Expect to see it in use going forward. And it could be there for a while.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Flip Saunders should have been fired before Paul Westphal. He’s got no control of that team. And anyone still think Rubio doesn’t fit the NBA game way better then the Euro game?

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/category/blogs/farmer-jones/ Ryan Jones

    Hey, I was at that Wolves-Wizards game, and given that fact, and the fact of my general basketball expertise, I thought I’d share some insight that probably hasn’t occurred to you guys:
    The Wizards are terrible.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    LZ
    You’re my dude, but you are so very, VERY wrong about Derrick Rose.
    That dude is a great player who is constantly working on his weaknesses. Every single year, dude has improved his game. And he’s not selfish. He maybe a scorer, but he’s not selfish, and already this year I’ve seen a ton of growth from him as far as running the team and picking his spots. Look at his numbers. He’s taking the fewest shots he’s taken since his rookie year right now. And he’s defending.
    I understand why folks criticized Rose last year, but this year that just isn’t true anymore. He still needs to take fewer three pointers and improve his jumper even more, but give dude his props for changing up and still being incredibly dangerous.

  • JoeMaMa

    Yeah, I do recall alot of people ripping Rubio. They really should just give a quick “I was wrong” post. Or is that not the internet hater way? Also, Kyrie Irving is lookin good!!

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    Couple things:
    -Not to brag, but I was a Rubio defender since SLAM ran his cover story. Kid is real.
    -The Magic are a better team than advertised, beating the Kings without Dwight essentially.
    -Look at the Suns roster. How on earth are they at .500?
    -Dwight won’t be traded, I’m calling that now.
    -Can we please stop calling the Knicks an elite team?
    -Ditto for the Mavs.
    -LeBron wins MVP in a close race with KD.

  • http://www,slamonline.com Slick Ric

    Rubio doing his thing, nice games from him so far and I see we still making excuses for john wall.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Allenp; First of all Happy New Year! Rose is a great player no doubt, he is a workhorse who strives to be the best and to constantly improve his game no doubt – he is a true great in that sense and I belive he will go down as a true stud when all is said and done. I have no real beef with Rose (Chi-fan here!), but I do still prefer my PG to be facilitator first, scorer second. I am a PG myself and I might be old fashioned in this sense but I will always see the PG as the conductor of the band not its biggest solist, imo there is a reason that the conductor gets the biggest applaus; he makes all the individuals come together and this is a much more complex assignment than playing the perfect solo on your instrument . I only used Rose’s name because he is kind of the model of the new era PG; strong, athletic, fast, shoot-first (he might not be outright selfish, but he sure is shoot-first – maybe out of lack of better options, time will tell) etc. I could just as well have used Westbrook, Jennings, Barea, Kemba or some other shoot-first PG’s name, it just that Rose was the MVP (hence he is king). I’m glad to hear that Rose’s game is improving, I have to regrettably admit I haven’t watched a single minute of Bulls’ basketball this season, but I’ll happily take your word for it. I have been traveling since x-mas and up until now, so apart from a nice Thunder-Grizz game on the 25th haven’t seen any NBA action this season expect from highlights. Anyways now I’m ready to sink my teeth in and will only be happy to see Rose expanding his game as a ‘conductor’.

  • showmeyourwits

    Forget Lizards, they should go with Generals after watching that clip. Shout to Dan Gilbert.

  • http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/35159/roses-sweet-game-continues-bulls-roll nbk

    LZ, Click my name. Article about Rose’s evolution as a PG.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Blatche is a pariah and one of those leeches that suck the life out of teams. The clown has even managed to suck the life out of Wall’s game and the wizards will be stuck in basketball hell until they get rid of him.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    I mean, Rose’s scoring is down to 19 a game, his assists are up to 8.5 a game so far this season.
    He keeps that up, all you “Rose is not a true PG/is too shoot first/is not a facilitator/is really a shooting guard” people really aren’t gonna have sh*t to say.

  • showmeyourwits

    Yeah, I think Rose would have passed more if he had teammates who could create their own opportunities. As we’re seeing, his assists are rising with the addition of Rip, Noah’s improved offensive game, and improvement of role players. I’m most impressed with Rose’s 3pt range this year.

  • http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/35159/roses-sweet-game-continues-bulls-roll nbk

    Rip has missed 4 of the last 5 games.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    Rose has been struggling from 3 lately. He’s 1 for 12 in their last 3 games.
    He falls in love with the 3 sometimes.
    Anyone know what his FG% is if 3s aren’t counted? It’s gotta be close to 50%.
    Anyways, Abe if it’s any consolation, all these L’s might be worth it if it means Wall gets to run with Anthony Davis or Andre Drummond next year.

  • http://www.optimabbc.be Max

    The Lizards is a perfect name, JWall and Mcgee need to get out of there asap.
    And I don’t really think DRose is shoot first, sometimes you might think he is because he has to score for the Bulls

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Thx, NBK.

  • http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/35159/roses-sweet-game-continues-bulls-roll nbk

    it isn’t much but i figured it would illustrate what Matic, Allen, and others have been saying.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Rose shoots too many 3s.
    ADrummond might be overrated.
    MKG might be the best player in the country.
    ADavis will be the best pro player.
    PJones’ the second coming of RGay.

  • http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/35159/roses-sweet-game-continues-bulls-roll nbk

    Rose does shoot too many 3′s though. 4.5 a game is too many. 3 games of 6 or more is way too many. Especially if he’s only going to shoot 29%

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    There’s nothing overrated about Drummond’s potential or skill.
    It’s his desire scouts and GMs question.
    MKG is good at everything but great at nothing. Love the kid but not sure how his skills translate.
    Yup. Davis will be dope. Marcus Camby 2.0 hopefully without the injuries.
    Agree on Perry Jones as well.
    Jeremy Lamb will be nice too.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    That’s why I said Drummond “might” be overrated. The guy has all the skills in the world to dominate but lacks the desire and passion needed.
    MKG is a great defender for his age/experience, very good rebounder and even though his jumpshot needs work, I could see him becoming a Marion/GWall-type player in the pros.
    Agree 100% on Jermey Silence of the Lambs.

  • http://www.optimabbc.be Max

    What about Thomas Robinson?

  • http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/35159/roses-sweet-game-continues-bulls-roll nbk

    NBADraft(net) has Jeremy Lamb going 3rd over Harrison Barnes, Perry Jones, & MKG

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Kevin Love shoots more threes than Rose.
    If you look at his numbers, they are incredibly impressive. The offense boards and free throws in particular.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    NBK, Enigmatic: Just to clear it up, there is no hater here. I like Rose, he has just been a bit to trigger happy for a PG to my liking up until now in his young career, like I said in my previous post; whether that is down to a lack of better options in the Bulls O, time will tell. Anyways I agree with Enigmatic’s: He keeps that up, all you “Rose is not a true PG/is too shoot first/is not a facilitator/is really a shooting guard” people really aren’t gonna have sh*t to say. Comment. Believe me I will have nothing to say if/when he does keep it up, he would then morph into exactly the PG I want for my Bulls (throw in some improved D while we are at it, Rose sure has the tools). Great that Rose is improving his court-game like NBK’s article clearly illustrates, but this season up until now is still a very small sample so until he has proven it over a full (well 66 games) season the jury is out imo. He is still a great player of course, like I said it is down to preferences and my own personal is more distributor less shooter from my PG.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Lamb reminds me of a jumping prey mantis with those long a** arms. Dude is going to be a very good/great defender in the L.
    TRob’s a very good athlete/rebounder but I think his lack of size is going hinder him in the L.
    I’m not sold on Barnes’ pro potential and never will be. The man is a one-trick pony (perimeter shooting). Not an exceptional athlete, average defender, and a terrible passer/rebounder at the 3 spot. Has Marvin Williams (better shooter) written all over him.

  • JoeMaMa

    A note about Derrick Rose shooting 3s. He’s so good at getting into the lane and creating that teams basically dare him to shoot. Apparently he really worked on his 3s over the summer as a result. And Rose has no doubt huddled with Thibs about this. As Rose is the best scorer on the team, Thibs likely told him to get a few 3s up. Rose isn’t a really bad 3 point shooter, and when he hits a couple, the other team is screwed. Also, Thibs doesn’t want Rose to lose confidence is he misses a few, so Thibs is likely saying “don’t worry if a few don’t drop. Keep attacking, but if you’re open at the 3 point line, you’re my guy.” I think the Bulls are basically allowing Rose to miss a few if the shots are in the flow of the game. If he keeps missing, then maybe Thibs doesn’t give him a full green light. But I’m pretty sure they’ll take a few missed 3s right now while it’s early in the season.

  • http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/35159/roses-sweet-game-continues-bulls-roll nbk

    Rose’s 3pt shooting exploits this season, 4-6(W), 1-8(L), 0-2(W), 3-4(W), 0-1(W), 3-8(W), 0-6(W), 1-3(W), 0-3(L). I don’t think Thibs wants Rose shooting that many 3′s.

  • jimmer

    Rose can work on it all he wants, he will never be a true point guard. You don’t ‘work on’ the kind of vision a Nash, Kidd, Magic, Stockton, Rubio(!) are born with. Fair play to the chap for being humble and doing the best for his team and all the rest of his commendable traits, but he will never, ever, be a pure point guard. I’m fairly sure with the shooting strokes they posess(ed), nash and stockton could have averaged 20-25 a game if they had chosen to. Their point guard play was/is not just about their innate vision and passing, but how their minds see the game. Every style in basketball is about how the game translates from a players mind into his actions on the court; a pure point guard is the manifestation of a very particualr, and rare, translation of vision and ability that sees and delivers upon things other players don’t. Rose is not a point guard. He’s a little 2 trying his darn hardest, for the good of his team, to be a good 1. He can jump and dunk and average 20 points a game. Lots of people in the history of the NBA could jump and dunk and averaged 20 points a game. Like Rose, some were exceptionally fast and surprisingly short for how good their dunks were. Very, very few have ever averaged more than 10 assists, or been able to.

  • http://www.twitter.com/nflem41 Nicolas Fleming

    I have disregarded Jimmer’s comments. Being a point guard who can score does not make you a small 2.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    I agree with NF that being a PG who can score does not make one a small 2. Rose has been playing PG his whole life and he is a PG, albeit a scoring one and not a ‘true’ one. Apart from that Jimmer’s comment is dead on. Hope Rose proves me wrong, cracks the 10 APG barrier and become a true PG (although as Jimmer says, he will never have the vision of the players mentioned – that ish can’t be taught).

  • http://nba.com GP23

    Oh and by the way, I always said Rubio would shine in the NBA.. I even said he would win ROY (check back the archives for proof). As of right now, I would say Rubio is in the top 6 of the best PG’s in the league. He would have even better stats if he started. But when he comes off the bench, he still kills it.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve brought this up and yet here I am bringing it up once more.
    Jimmer – what’s your definition of a “true point guard”?
    Someone with great court vision? Someone who doesn’t shoot as much and looks to pass first?
    Would you dare say Bob Cousy wasn’t a true point guard?
    Cause he had SEVERAL seasons where he averaged 20 field goal attempts a game.
    In 1960 he averaged 9.5 assists a game, but by your reasoning he wouldn’t be a point guard because he averaged 19.5 points on 19.7 field goal attempts per, right?
    What about Nate Archibald?
    He wasn’t a true point guard either, then.
    Several seasons of averaging over 20 field goal attempts per and over 25 points per.
    But yet somehow he averaged 7.4 assists per his career.
    I could go on, but it’s pointless.
    You already have your opinion and I doubt I can change it.
    Rose ain’t no f*cking shooting guard tho.
    LZ – Rose already cracked the top ten in assists last year.
    He’s currently sixth in the L this year.
     For whatever reason, y’all just choose not to see Rose is a great point guard who lacks the vision of a Nash or Kidd but is still a great point guard nonetheless.
    I mean, how many NBA point guards have court vision like that?
    You better start declaring about 80% of the L’s point guards aren’t really point guards if that’s your criteria for what a point guard is.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    Lz – oh my bad, you said crack the 10 apg barrier.
    Well I mean, damn, only like 1 or 2 point guards do that every year.
    Are we really gonna fault Rose for not being able to do something 90% of point guards can’t do?

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    As right as I was about Rubio… I appear to be equally wrong about Wall. What gives ma dude? Figured he would be at 20 and 10 this season or darned closed to it. He had 16,8 last year. This year he’s at 14,6.5 35% FG… WTH

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Enigmatic; Stop being so defensive. I never said Rose is not a great point guard; I said on many examples during my last posts that he is a great player, I also said he is a PG since he played PG his whole career. This makes him a great PG imo, not my favorite type of PG but nevertheless a great one. I know he cracked the top ten in Ass. last year, most Chi fans know that I believe. Being a ‘true’ PG in my opinion has nothing to do with whether you posses court vision like Stock or Kidd. I find it to be defined by mentality; a ‘true’ poing guard will always try to get his team clicking first and score second. Whether he has the court vision, passing skills etc. make the difference whether he is mediocre, good or great. But the difference is all about mentality I think. Some players; like Rose are so great that even though they don’t have the mentality, they can get more assists than a less talented player who has the mentality. Some true PG’s in the NBA today; Nash, Kidd, Paul, D. Williams, Lowry, Rubio, Billups, Maynor, Dre Miller, Rondo, Calderon, D. Collison, J. Holiday, Ridnour – PG’s who are shoot first (even though some of them have impressive apg); Rose, Monta, DJ Agu, Tony Longoria, Westbrook, J. Nelson, Devin Harris, Stuckey, Mo Will, Kemba W., Tyreke Evans – and then there are some players I haven’t seen enough of to be sure where to place them; S. Curry, Jarrett Jack. I hope you get my drift. If Rose is evolving into a player more in the mould of the first group, I’ll just be even happier with his play because I believe this gives the Bulls a better chance to be succesful and eventually win a ring.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Lakeshow; I also pictured Wall really having a coming out party this year. Not making excuses but his slumping play could have something to do with the Blanks being such a horrible team.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Billups is a pass-first PG? Since when?

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    I probably forgot some players on my lists; here are a couple of more shoot-first PG’s Brandon J., Ty Lawson, Toney Douglas and Ray Felton. I haven’t seen enough of the rookies to really be labeling them just yet. There are also the players like D.Fish, M. Bibby and M. Chalmers who imo are really tough to place in this very simple way of dividing the PG’s of the NBA.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    NBK; Chauncey likes to shoot a lot, but he always makes sure that the team is clicking first that is the way I see it. But even if I’m wrong; congratulations on finding the one badly placed player on my lists. Instead of being such a bean counter you should consider ‘the mentality’ argument and the rest of the lists, makes for much more interesting discussion than you pointing fingers. Agree/disagree?

  • http://redoftoothandclaw.ca/ niQ

    A little late but, Andre Drummond recently said that “as of right now” he plans on returning to UCONN for his sophomore season. To be honest, if you’re projected to be a top 3 pick, you might as well just enter the draft…

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    Lz – have you seen any Bulls games this year?
    Rose does try to get his team clicking first and scores second.
    He rarely comes out with a score-first mentality.
    Sometimes he’s way too passive until the Bulls are in trouble and he has to save the day.
    And I don’t mean to come off as defensive.
    I know great players will get criticized.
    But the one thing that will make me go off is when people say he’s not a point guard.
    I know you didn’t say that, I’m just saying.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    Really, niQ?
    That’s huge. Well, I mean, I don’t know, the guys who chose to stick around this year seem to be happy with their decisions

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    What do you want me to argue, your opinion? You claim to play PG, what am I or anyone going to change about how you choose to like one more than the other? You want me to argue with your opinion that of Rose expanded into a better playmaker the Bulls will be better? Isn’t that obvious? Or do you want me to argue with you trying to group PG’s together into two completely subjective categories? I was pointing out Billups because it highlighted that you’re merely giving an opinion that doesn’t really have any measurable/categorical supporting evidence. They are basketball players, all of them play to their strengths. Rose looks to score more than to pass for the Bulls, he didnt do that for Team USA, or even Kentucky. He plays within his system. If you want to categorize him and every other PG, you might as well categorize their role in the offense, like say Rose is a (1) as the primary option, while Billups has never been higher then a (2) or second option, on any team. Which probably has more influence on your opinion then the players actual play style. (is that enough of a response?)

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Enigmatic; Read the posts. I already told Allenp that I haven’t and that I would gladly take his word for that Rose is taking steps in the right (in my opinion) direction. It is great news that he has this new found mentality. Like I said; I hope he keeps these new found ways, but the season is still very young and his averages are not that different from the way he started a year ago I believe, so it is still a small sample to make any judgements based upon compared to the rest of his career where he has clearly been shoot first (maybe partly because of lack of options on his Bulls teams up until now)if he keeps it up the new style GREAT!. Maybe I just need to see it with my own eyes (hopefully soon) to believe it. Believe me I want Rose to do even better than he was already doing. Just kind of had this conflict these past years; as much as I was cheering for Rose to play great and lead the Bulls to W’s, I still found him to play his position the ‘wrong’ way. No Rose hater, he is a great player and PG. Just not my type of PG (from what I have seen from him yet, I get excited by the prospect that he could be merging into that player that I personally prefer, can’t wait to see the Bulls play).

  • http://nba.com GP23

    Derrick Rose is not a shooting guard.. at all !!!

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    I think it’s more important that he be the type of point guard his team needs him to be rather than he be the type any of us would prefer.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I hate the phrase “true” point guard.
    You know who people use as an example of a “true” point guard?
    Bob Freaking Cousy.
    An 18 shot per game chucker who never shot better than 40 percent from the field.
    You know who else gets the designation? Pistol Pete.
    Another serious chucker who alienated his entire team with his ballhogging.
    You play point the way your team needs you to play it. Your team dictates what you provide. Rose won 62 games without a serious second scorer and to do that he had to shoot a lot. Maybe John Stockton and Nash could average 25 but AT NO POINT IN THEIR CAREERS HAVE THEY EVER SHOWN A WILLINGNESS TO DEAL WITH THE STRESS OF BEING THE BEST SCORING OPTION ON THEIR TEAMS.
    And don’t fool yourselves, that is stress. That is hard effing work. Rose is what he is, a point guard who is also a very dangerous scorer. He’s averaging 19 and 8, those are numbers Steve Nash couldn’t even get in Dallas.
    Check your history.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    AllenP said what I was trying to say only he’s AllenP so he says it so much more badass.
    I see you, homie.

  • http://redoftoothandclaw.ca/ niQ

    @Enigmatic. I think so. I mean, people usually stay in college to improve their draft stock or gain more experience. But I feel if you’re already projected to go early in the draft, you might as well cash in while you’re stock is high. Cause if you stay another year, people might start seeing flaws in your game that others may not have noticed before.
    Take for example Harrison Barnes. He was projected to go around top 2 (or 3 depending where you look). Scouts were in love with him, that he could play both sides of the floor and had range. But now, people are starting to see holes in his game. A big example was in the big game vs Kentucky (I know it’s just one game but bear with me). People were saying how Barnes cannot create his own shot and is more of a spot up shooter. Not only that, that he plays like he’s almost scared to drive in. I think Jonathan Givony wrote an article about that game detailing this and flaws of other major players in the game.
    I’m kind of digressing but my point is that, from top 2, he might have dropped a few spots in the upcoming draft. Barnes might not even be top 4 now. I’ve seen everyone from Drummond, A.Davis, J.Lamb, and Perry Jones ranked higher than him at some points.
    I think I’ve said too much. I barely even remember what I was trying to argue about. LOL.

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    NBK; Read it again you didn’t get it or I didn’t communicate it well enough. I simply asked wheter you wouldn’t think it would lead to a more interesting discussion if you evaluated my ‘the mentality’ argument instead of being such a bean counter. I don’t want to argue; I don’t come to SLAM to argue but yes to discuss and exchange opinions – I value this forum for that not getting into pissing contests with other commentators. If you think that the system is more important for the players play than the mentality, ok that is your opinion. I don’t agree but fair enough. Surely it is just opinion and I don’t have any ‘measurable/categorical supporting evidence’ but who really have that around here?`Like just about everything else we discuss on this site, most things are just opinion…

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    And I’m not angry at LZ although I can’t believe he co-signed Jimmer. Who, by the way, is a bigger chucker than Derrick Rose could ever dream of being, with way less talent.

  • http://redoftoothandclaw.ca/ niQ

    But for others who weren’t ranked within the top 3-5, ie: Jeremy Lamb, they’ve seen their stocks improve plenty from staying an additional year in college. I don’t remember where he was ranked in the 2011 class, but he’s definitely top 10 for 2012. Nbadraft.net had him as high as 2, but he’s around 10 on other sites. Still better than whatever it was ranked last year…

  • http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/35159/roses-sweet-game-continues-bulls-roll nbk

    The point is. There is no response to your post. Other then to “bean count” – the rest is an opinion with no reasonable direction. Billups was the clear indication. (and “argue” how i used it was meant the same as a response, if I disagree, then it’s an argument. it’s internet semantics my bad) I don’t agree with any “categorizing” of players. I mean they can have strengths and weaknesses, but they aren’t some different bread of player. Or they shouldn’t be, at the NBA level. THe guys who are stuck in certain category are generally “role-players” anyway right? Like Nate Robinson, Bobby Jackson, Brevin Knight. The actual marquee starters are enigmas. They play to their strength, but they also have the ability to play as a different “type” of player. For example, Steve Nash, he is typically a “pass-first” PG but there are games, (against the Mavericks in the 05 playoffs game 3 when he had 17 assists and then followed that up in game 5 with 48 points)he switches and becomes a “shoot first” player. Depending on what role the defense forces him to play within his teams system he can change. Just like most every other starting point guard (Derrick Rose) in the league does or has done at some point in their career. So I disagree with your whole entire comment. I’m sorry I “bean counted”

  • Lz – Cphfinest3

    Too backtrack a bit; I wouldn’t co-sign on the part where Jimmer said Nash & Stock could average 25, I don’t think they could, at all. Nor did I want to co-sign on Rose not being a PG, I believe I already told N. Fleming this in a prior post. My bad if I was a bit fast with agreeing with Jimmer’s post. However I do co-sign to the following: ‘Their point guard play was/is not just about their innate vision and passing, but how their minds see the game. Every style in basketball is about how the game translates from a players mind into his actions on the court; a pure point guard is the manifestation of a very particualr, and rare, translation of vision and ability that sees and delivers upon things other players don’t.’ (…) ‘He can jump and dunk and average 20 points a game. Lots of people in the history of the NBA could jump and dunk and averaged 20 points a game. Like Rose, some were exceptionally fast and surprisingly short for how good their dunks were. Very, very few have ever averaged more than 10 assists, or been able to.’ – I think I have a higher appreciation of Rose’s talents than Jimmer (Rose is a great player and not just a guy who can run, dunk and get you 20). But I still agree with the notion that very few players have that mind/skill/vision where they see the game different and from what I have seen so far Rose is not one of them. Hope he proves me wrong, because just like some prefer Deron to Paul, I prefer a pass-first PG to a shoot-first one, because of I guess my basketball philosophy makes me believe that teams will ultimately be more succesful and win more with such a PG in control. Excuse me I’m off now, bit will check back in, in about an hour or so.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    Yeah, Barnes definitely should’ve just went ahead and declared for this past draft.
    I think he would’ve fallen out of the top 2 whether scouts were able to find more holes in his game or not, simply because Davis and Drummond are better pro prospects than him, even though he is currently probably a better skilled player than both.
    But I think he really just wants to cement his legacy at UNC by winning a national title, and you really can’t fault him for that.
    Guys like Tyler Hansbrough and Raymond Felton who won a title for UNC are probably treated like gods at Chapel Hill.
    I actually thought the one guy who’s stock would really fall would be Perry Jones though. Because he really lacked that motor and motivation last year, and I figured, with Quincy Miller coming in, Jones would be left in the dust.
    But even though his stats are nearly identical to last season, it seems Jones has picked it up this season and is determined to prove he not only has potential to be good, but he can be good now.
    I think Jeremy Lamb was able to flourish this season because of the departure of Kemba Walker.
    He was already high on scout’s lists last year but I think him proving that he can be the focal point of an offense really shot him up draft boards.
    The one guy I’m really excited to see play in the NBA tho is Anthony Davis. I mean, he has the tools to lead the league in blocks for the next 10 years.
    He looks like a future defensive player of the year, for sure.  

  • http://redoftoothandclaw.ca/ niQ

    Yea, you’re right about cementing a legacy at UNC. That’s something I never really took into consideration. I usually just focus so much on the NBA draft I tend to forget there’s life before that. LOL.
    I actually thought it was a good idea for Perry Jones to stay at Baylor though. (Kind of contradicts what I said earlier…) But I thought he was a little too raw last year. And I do think he has potential to be a star in the NBA. He would be a nightly mismatch playing at the SF position (assuming he does). I was actually more high on Quincy Miller but Perry Jones’ return seems to have taken a toll on both of their production. Q. Miller has some dirty handles for a guy of his height 6’10? At least they’re still winning games.
    I’m excited about A. Davis too, but more on his defensive potential. I’m a little skeptic how he’ll do offensively but I can agree with Marcus Camby 2.0. As like everyone else in the draft, kid needs to add some pounds though…

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    Lebron has attempted 2 three point field goal this season.

    Dwyane has attempted zero.

  • http://www.t-mac.com/tmac/index unf*ckwitable

    Allenp @ 3.19

  • Kadavour

    I’m glad this Rose PG debate has been sparked. The kid will forever be AI-LITE to me until i see him change his habits. Admittedly, he has really put effort into distributing the ball better this year (let’s see if he keeps this up 30 games in). I still don’t see court vision and presence enough to really control the tempo of the game like some of the other guards in the league though. Jose Calderon is a better floor general than Rose. Not nearly as talented, but he sees the 2nd and 3rd possible pass where Rose only sees the first. I think this is the root of ppl’s frustration with giving Rose the title of elite PG. He definitely has the drive and kick process on lock, but u don’t see him setting up plays for specific players by setting up the defense to do what he wants them to do. He drives and kicks, that’s about it.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    I stopped reading after “Jose Calderon”.
    Shoulda stopped reading afte “AI-LITE.”

  • http://www.slamonline.com house

    Ya’ know all this bs people spout about people being ‘born’ with a particular skill, e.g., (court vision), is way off base in my opinion. Those people, (Kidd, Nash) etc have their individual skill-sets because thats what they worked on, they weren’t ‘born with them’.

    On the whole drive and kick argument, yes Rose does have it on lock but I would also argue that because there are few traditional post type players on the Bulls, (e.g., Boozer) and that they are a ‘get out on the break’ type team first, (because of Rose) that during a typical game the Bulls offense is typically reliant on all of the Bulls players on the floor being facilitators. Games where Rose gets +10 assists, (the recent 16 assist game for example) are rare but as his career progresses I can easily see this becoming more of a regular occurrence. Rose seems to get most of his assists from players like Rip, Korver, Deng etc coming off screens, pick and rolls etc but because the role of facilitator is spread among the Bulls so much I would argue that this is why Rose’s apg is not as high as other pg’s like Nash etc and also because he is the premiere offensive player on his team and is relied upon to score however and whenever he can. I hope this post made sense.

  • http://www.slamonline.com house

    Crikey, apologies for long winded sentences above.^

  • http://www,slamonline.com Slick Ric

    Rose best pg in the game. Its funny people saying anyone can get 20 a game,lol, it all about how you get your twenty a game. andre miller has avergae 10 apg a couple of seasons and so have other points but I dont see anyone calling them magic or stockton because its all about how you do it. Rose twenty brings more value than any other pg right now because of his effectiveness of getting into the paint. Never understood the chucker label this guy has had, looking at his numbers he has only had one season where he has shot over seventeen shots. I’m not impressed with a guy that can make nice dimes,that dont mean you a winner. this is not black and white, so people acting like you have to be jason kidd to be successful as a pg pisses me off. No young pg has done what he has in the last twenty years and people wanna b*tch about him not being a magic passer. gtfoh

  • http://www.t-mac.com/tmac/index unf*ckwitable

    @kadavour How the hell can you tell the current MVP that the way he plays is wrong?? Lol he lead his team to the best record in the L but he isnt a floor general. Jose Calderon doesnt have to be the number 1 scorer for his squad. Do you think the bulls would be winning with anyone else on their squad as the number 1 scorer? Should Drose sacrifice wins just so he can satisfy the PG purest out there??

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    Calderon can have that “floor general” title.
    In real war, Generals don’t lead their men in the battlefield.
    Give me a Captain platoon commander any day.

  • Kadavour

    @unf*ckwitable: i didn’t say he plays wrong. He plays within his abilities and Chicago is lucky to have him. Answer this though, which JV coach is showing tape of how to execute an offense based on D.Rose’s game? The SG coach is probably showing that tape though – lol

  • Kadavour

    And don’t take the Calderon comparison out of context. Calderon would be better at executing a given offensive scheme better than rose, hence “floor general”. D.Rose gives you drive and kick and that’s about it.

  • http://www.slamonline.com J

    hey
    since most of you guys talk college ball..what is Brad Beal and Austin Rivers doin’? College ball isn’t available here in my country.

  • http://www.t-mac.com/tmac/index unf*ckwitable

    I doubt the SG coach is playing it, dude plays nothing like a SG.

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    read it and weep PHX have the 8th seed.

  • http://www.triplejunearthed.com/dacre Dacre

    General Custer…. was a failure.

  • http://www.leaguelineup.com/welcome.asp?url=pawtucketymca Gametimeweezy

    A true point guard is simply a pass first point guard that can properly RUN an offense efficiently.
    Even assist totals are arbitrary… don’t get CAUGHT UP in stats all the time guys.
    Jacques Vaughn didn’t necessarily rack up assist totals and he was one of the PUREST…
    Of course Cousy was a true point guard!
    It has nothing to do with his shot attempts unless he was shooting his team OUT of wins…
    D Rose may not be a true point guard but he is easily the BEST point guard.
    That being said Drummond (#1 pick) is a MONSTER! Him and Wall on the same team would be a problem!

  • Mike From Spain

    Why say ‘Rose is not a true point guard’ when it is easier, less contentious and truer to say ‘Rose might have a little less playmaking vision as other point guards’? I don’t favour Rose’s model of PG play but I would never go out of my way to try to make the point he’s not a true point guard. It is a futile point, adds nothing that discussing playmaking ability already does. BTW, I read the last few days ‘the art of a beautiful game’ and I think the parts about Lebron, Nash, and the pure shooters are wonderful. It says there have been 6 players with 50/40/90 % seasons, and one of them is José Calderón…

  • Mike From Spain

    *than other point guards… not ‘as’. My English fails me at times

  • Justin G.

    AllenP, to say that Nash and Stockton weren’t willing to take on the stress of being the team’s best scorer is flat out dumb. Why would they try to take on that role when you have Karl Malone (at the time the greatest power forward in history and may still be 1A) or Dirk Nowitzki and even Michael Finley on your team? They may have had a desire to run their offense and get the ball to their best scorers in their spots but they sure weren’t afraid of the stress of taking the big shot were they? I don’t know about Stockton, but Nash’s mentality goes back to high school. He wasn’t the leading scorer on his high school team yet he easily could have been because nobody could stay in front of him. He had a pretty big center and a shooting guard that could hit the open three at will. And he had a lot of opportunities because Nash would drive and kick so often. It’s just the way he plays. If you look at how pure his shot though, while I don’t think he would average 25 I don’t think 19 or 20 is too far fetched at all if he were a little more selfish

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