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Tuesday, February 28th, 2012 at 9:00 am  |  221 responses

Shaquille O’Neal: Steve Nash Didn’t Deserve Two MVPs


by Marcel Mutoni @marcel_mutoni

In his first year as a talking head, Shaquille O’Neal has struggled to translate his outsized personality onto the television screen. What the retired big man hasn’t had any trouble with, however, is the ability to give amazing interviews.

Shaq spoke candidly with Vibe Magazine about a number of subjects, and here are some choice quotes about former teammate Steve Nash and the rivalry with the Sacramento Kings:

VIBE: Some sportswriters think you underachieved because you only won one MVP. Shaq: “Steve Nash is my boy, but I don’t see how the fuck he got it twice. I was taught never to complain because you can’t beat the system. People know who the real dominant guy was. But Steve Nash, I don’t want to say it because you might print it and it might cause problems. I don’t believe he beat me out twice.”

Was there genuine animosity between the Lakers and the 2002 Kings?

“It wasn’t, but I created it. I know how to get you to watch me. Okay, Sacramento is coming up and it’s already a big game, ‘Fuck them, the Sacramento Queens.’ And now everyone is talking about that. [...] The trash talk against Sacramento worked. Peja Stojakovic and Doug Christie missed open three’s down the stretch. “They were shook. Pressure busts pipes. Most of those guys were playing because of C-Webb’s balls. C-Webb had balls and White Chocolate [Jason Williams] had balls. [Writer’s Note: Williams was traded from Sacramento before the 2001–02 season, and didn’t play in that series.] Divac ain’t got no balls. Doug Christie damn sure ain’t got no balls. I would look at them during the national anthem. I could see in their eyes if they were scared. I would see Doug Christie looking and doing the thing [flashing hand signals] to his wife. I would make eye contact with Divac, and he looked down. And I was like, ‘Okay, I got him.’ C-Webb would try to look hard, but it didn’t work because his other puppies didn’t play well.”

Shaquille O’Neal also criticizes his work on NBATV and TNT (giving himself only a C-minus), his relationship with Kobe Bryant, Los Angeles Lakers management, Pat Riley and his NBA legacy. It’s a very entertaining read.

Shaq should be allowed to swear on television. I’m convinced this would make him infinitely better as an analyst.

(H/T: Deadspin)

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  • slamfan4life

    damn it shaq…

  • Justin G.

    Shaq is just sour. Your lack of wins had nothing to do with the system. He won because his first year back with Phoenix the team won something like an extra 30 games. The next year, his stats and those of his teammates were even better. It’s called most VALUABLE player not most dominant. If it were about who was the best or most dominant than Wilt would have won more and Michael would have about 8 or 9 MVP’s. Nash earned them and anyone who says otherwise is either just a hater or doesn’t know what they’re talking about

  • Charles

    DOUCHE.

  • AD

    i agree with shaq for the first time …… alot of pll didnt desrve mvps tho…. Like when tim duncan won it instead of JKIDD.

  • Sean B

    It is pretty laughable that Steve Nash has as many MVP’s as Kobe + Shaq.

  • vtrobot

    did those crooked refs have balls?

  • Justin G.

    Also, he only gave himself a C-? I’d have gone lower just from the fact he didn’t have Chris Bosh on his All Star list. But, it’s not an easy transition and maybe he’ll figure it out

  • MeloMan15

    Nash was the most valuable player on his team bot years… he deserved it. No reflection on shaq n kobe, nash just deserved it those years

  • K.a.

    I miss reads like this. U used to drop this type of ish slam dome! That said my fave bit was the laetner bit, that one caught me by surprised. N the bit where he insist he had more mvps while still reppin steve. I thought that was real. Thing abt shaq n bron, while theyre in the game acted like ish didnt mean nothing, but this piece says otherwise. Shaq did care but it just wasnt his thing to project it in his image like a kobe or KG.

  • nic

    Yea Nash got the MVP s cuz he is white

  • http://www.waihak.blogspot.com Tariq

    Shaq would a better announcer if he actually followed the NBA. I bet he only watches games in the studio.

  • Zabbah

    Nash deserved it. He had a crap team that was always hurt and took ‘em deep in the playoffs with 60+ wins in a loaded, ultra competitive West. There were teams in the East that made the playoff and weren’t even .500. In the West, there was one season when a 50 win team didn’t even make the effing playoffs! Ya’ll must’ve forgot.

  • Wasabi

    Crooked refs lol

  • tomtom

    I agree with tariq, I also think that about Magic when he is on the preview shows on espn. I agree with shaw in a way, I don’t think nash was dominant enough to win 2 mvps, but shaq wasn’t even in the running those years, he was the second option behind Dwade at that time. Kobe should have had one of those mvps, one of then was in his 35ppg season (also the 81 and 62 in 3 quarters season).

  • T-Money

    shaq likes to burn bridges but he ain’t lying. back-to-back MVPs to a guy that’s never been top 5 in the league and arguably wasn’t even the best point guard in the league when he won his MVPs (cp3 was cooking). nash is no doubt a HOFer but he didn’t deserve back-to-back MVPs, you need to dominate the league to get those.

  • Justin G.

    T-Money again…it’s not about dominating the league. It isn’t the MDP. There is no doubt that Steve Nash was the most valuable player to his team at that time, not just for the stats he was putting up individually but for what he was doing for everyone else. It’s not really even that debatable

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I actually agree about the swearing thing.

  • Bt

    Ironically he didn’t win in 07 when he should have (for the same reason mj didn’t win in 97, people get sick of voting for the same guy)

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Why the eff is Shaq so much more likable in this interview than he is on TV? This makes no sense at all. I’m laughing at dude, nodding my head, all that. On TV I just want him to shut the hell up.

  • Paul H

    While I think there Is an argument to be made that It Is unfair that Steve Is a multi MVP, whilst Kobe and Shaq are stuck on one, what I have a problem with Is Shaq’s continuing presence as one of sports WORST retired Prima donnas. What used to be refreshing candor whilst he dominated the game now comes across as bitter, envious and childish. Get It together man! I find It tough to watch TNT with the “Big egotistical” at the helm. BRING BACK WEBBER.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    It’s not the Most Valuable Player on your team, it’s the Most Valuable Player in the League.
    And Nash took a team that was one year removed from the playoffs to the WCF with one of the most loaded starting fives in modern history while averaging 15 and 11. Shaq took a Miami Heat team with minimal talent outside of second year start to the ECF and averaged 22 and 10. I think he has a legitimate gripe. And year two for Nash, LeBron averaged like 30,7 and 7 and took a putrid Cleveland team to 50 wins, he had an argument as well.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    And their is no set criteria for MVP. The League does that on purpose to generate debate and controversy.
    So, it’s not stupid to think Nash didn’t deserve both MVPs. It’s also not stupid to think that he did. You can make a serious argument for and a serious argument against. And there were tons of factors including style of play, player history, race and other things that went into the decision.
    I hate when people pretend that things that are purely subjective are actually cut and dry.

  • phamie

    Steve Nash deserved his two MVP awards Shaq. It so sad that you and Kobe never won it twice like what Nash did. that means, Steve Nash is greater than the both of you and Kobe!

  • Paul H

    Co-sign Allenp, Sports without debates and arguments wouldn’t be half as fun. Like Rock music without the drink and drug fueled insanity. Just wouldn’t work!

  • http://nba.com GP23

    Kobe was robbed in ’06 for sure.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Kobe has highest scoring average, but one of his lowest field goal percentages and just good averages for assists and rebounds. Plus, he had a fringe All-Star on his team in Odom.
    I mean, when you look at the numbers, Iverson actually had a better year than Kobe that year.

  • RunNGun

    Shaq loves to talk… let him put his foot in his mouth.

  • Paul H

    Yeah Allen but Kobe was also an all-nba defensive first team selection that year.

  • Exile

    “I know how to get you to watch me.” Nuff said. Nothing more should be made of these comments.

  • http://www.borntocompete.com Money$hot

    Shaq runs his mouth to much, and Nash deserves those MVP’s.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Shaq did deserve Nash’s first MVP. The second one though, with Boris Diaw instead of Amar’e, I have no issue with him winning that one.

  • http://www.alllooksame.com Tarzan Cooper

    05 was shaqs, 06 was brons.

  • http://www.nba.com Red

    This dude is the epitome of annoying. He always is a bitter loser.

  • kyle

    i dont know what shaq is talking about Nash did deserve BOTH of those MVPs because Nash had no supporting cast so he did all by himself while shaq had kobe…even tho shaq was the more dominant…Nash was the more valuable

  • robb

    @Allenp Shaq’s not being himself on TV, but it’s not because of him, I think the producers are not allowing him to go all the way, IMO.

  • http://nba.com GP23

    Has there ever been an unanimous MVP winner in the history of the NBA?? Serious question, I want to know. Apparently Shaq was the closest to it in 2000?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Paul H
    Phil Jackson said Kobe played some of the worst defense of his career that season, mainly because he was expending so much energy on offense.

  • Paul H

    Yet some of the worst defense of his career (I actually cant remember It being that bad) was still Infinitely better than anything AI ever did on that end of the floor.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I think Shaq has a legit gripe about 2005.
    But, Nash did win a lot of games, and the team was clearly dependent on his success. I feel like the bigger problem was 2006.
    Nash got that one on the strength of the fact that he put up better numbers than in his MVP year, and they didn’t have Amare. But, in reality, his scoring jumped (which makes sense when you lose the best P&R finisher in the League) but his assists dropped (ditto). Diaw was playing in a contract year, Marion saw his numbers explode (26 and 13 against the Clippers in the playoffs)and they were obviously a much less dangerous team.
    I think that LeBron as a third year player, averaging 30,7 and 7 while winning 50 games with a team that had been in the lottery for years was more impressive. He was clearly that entire team, AND in the discussion for best in the League. At like 22. Outstanding.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Nah I can’t say “infinitely” better. When the Sixers were defensive stalwarts, Iverson played okay defense. He was suspect on that ball, but ELITE in the passing lanes. There was no one better in the passing lanes when he was in his prime, and he still averaged 2.4 steals that game.
    My point is that Kobe was a first round playoff exit while jacking a lot of shots and scoring a lot of points. If that’s the argument for MVP, then Iverson would like a word.

  • http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1122425/index.htm nbk

    I don’t see why Kobe deserved to be in the conversation in 06, if the award was the “BPL” (Best Player in the League) then yeah, but “most valuable” – to an 8/7 seed? Whose to say they would have even made the playoffs if they didn’t have Lamar Odom. Then Kobe would have had ridiculous numbers on a team in the lottery and the idea that he would be in the MVP discussion would be laughable.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Steve Nash is so overrated its sad, we act like he can lead a team anywhere. DALLAS went to NBA Finals the year after Nash left with a rookie point guard. Nash was not a regular All Star in Dallas, I have facts on the so call top all time great point guard, In the 2001–02 season and the 2002-03 season was Nash an All star in Dallas that’s it. He came into the league in 96 played with dallas from 1998 to 2004. Nash’s familiarity with this style combined with the athleticism of his teammates produced an NBA-best 62–20 record and a points-per-game average of 110.4, the highest in a decade. The catalyst of this turnaround, Nash averaged 11.5 assists per game while making 50.2% of his field goals and 43.1% of his three-pointers in the regular season. He edged Shaquille O’Neal to win the 2004–05 NBA MVP award. So he got an MVP, then Stoudemire suffered a serious knee injury, and Johnson and Quentin Richardson were traded away. The Suns were not expected to repeat their successful 2005 season, so Lets give Nash another MVP over Kobe. Nash really didn’t become a regular All Star until coming to PHx. , Nash was not a regular All Star in Dallas, see these MVP’s have skewed everyone about his Dallas career.

    NBA career highlights
    •2× NBA Most Valuable Player: 2005, 2006
    •8× NBA All-Star: 2002–03, 2005–08, 2010, DON’T DERSERVE TEAM SUCKS—2012
    •7× All-NBA selection:
    o First team: 2005–07 THAT’S IT
    o Second team: 2008, 2010
    o Third team: 2002, 2003
    •2× NBA All-Star Weekend Skills Challenge winner: 2005, 2010
    •5× NBA regular season leader for assists per game: 2005 (11.5), 2006 (10.5), 2007 (11.6), 2010 (11.0), 2011 (11.4)[8]
    • 4× member of 50-40-90 Club: (2006, 2008–10)
    o Has more 50-40-90 seasons than any other player in NBA history
    o One of only five players to have ever shot 50-40-90
    o One of only two players to have shot 50-40-90 more than once
    •Lou Marsh Trophy (Canadian athlete of the year): 2005[64]
    •3× Lionel Conacher Award (Canadian male athlete of the year): 2002, 2005, 2006
    •J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award (NBA award for outstanding citizenship and community service): 2007

    Came in the league in 1996 only went to All star game 8 times. First team on 3 times, This is Nash resume, because I hear folks all the time he belongs in the Hall of Fame. This is his Rap Sheet. Only two things stand out on his major accomplishments and he was just a good point guard. BOOOOK IT!!!

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    If you look at who Iverson was playing with in 2004-2005 and 2005-2006, he clearly exceeded what Kobe was doing. It’s not even close.
    Go look at the rosters, and he made the playoffs in 2004-2005 and averaged 31 and 10 in a first round loss to a Pistons team that went to the Finals!
    And dude averaged 30, 8 and 4 with 2.4 steals while shooting 42 percent from the field. And that team only had Webber for 21 games and he was coming off serious knee surgery. And they made the playoffs. Now he and Shaq both have a legit grip about Nash for that year.
    And the next year Iverson put up 33 and 7, but his team sucked, so I understand him not being in the discussion.
    Oh, and Kobe shot 45 percent when he averaged 35, so it really wasn’t that bad.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    shaq does not have honorable character, he probably was kissing his ass like he does kobe now when he was on his team. That does not mean this does not have some validity,however; I had no problem with nash winning this award over shaq in 04-05 but in 05-06, i felt kobe should have won that award.

  • Paul H

    @ The seed. Wow your copy and paste skills are amazing. If you don’t think a point guard leading the L In assists (In just 32 mins per game), with all the aforementioned shooting stats, does not deserve to be an allstar, you really do not know basketball.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    When you look at it, the second MVP was more defensible than the first. But the problem with the second one is that one of the main arguments was “Well he won it last year, and he’s doing even more!”
    But, just on numbers alone, I’m cooler with the second one, although i would have voted for Bron because it’s insane what he did at that age. But, Nash was a legit winner in 2005-2006 in retropect.

  • http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1122425/index.htm nbk

    lol @ the Seeds attempt at making Nash look worse. Fail.

  • http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1122425/index.htm nbk

    Allen, I think I no longer have any issues with how you see Nash. At all.

  • OTB

    Nash deserved the first one more than the second one. By his second one, there was really no one else to choose. The Heat were mostly Wade’s team by 2006, Kobe wasn’t winning enough, and Lebron wasnt Lebron yet.

  • OTB

    That first year though, he was the main catalyst for the change in the Suns (well, along with Mike). He deserved it.

  • http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1122425/index.htm nbk

    OTB you crazy homie.

  • robb

    If you don’t play at least a little bit of defense you don’t deserve to be an MVP. That’s all I’m gonna say.

  • AQWORD

    All of yall hatin are on shax di(k like human sheesh kebabs. Steve did deserve both MVPs easilly. I wish i was Barkleys size , i would hve phuked shaq up dat nite.

  • OTB

    The Suns won 29 games prior to Nash arriving. The Heat were already a playoff team before Shaq, mainly because of Wade’s emergence.

  • OTB

    People just don’t like Nash winning it cause he hasn’t been “HOF caliber” his whole career like most MVPs. It shattered the status quo definition of who could be an MVP, and people got all up in arms about it. Did he deserve two when guys like Kobe, Shaq, KG only had one? No. But you can’t fault him for his success.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Nash arrived, D’Antoni arrived, Quentin Richardson arrived, Joe Johnson emerged, Amar’e turned 21, and Shawn Marion was unleashed in that new system. They didn’t just jump 27 games in the win column because of Nash. He was given way to much credit for that jump. More should have fallen on D’Antoni. — The second season though, after they lost the league leader in 3′s made (Richardson), the league leader in 3pt % (Johnson), and the best finishing 4 in the league (Amar’e), and still remained a top team in the West, that’s when Nash deserved his MVP. He carried that team on his back a lot of nights, it was breathtaking..

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Nash is not even top 15 point guard all time. Can yall believe a point guard who does not play defense, has only taken one team to a Conference Finals, choke with great Phx teams, Dallas went to NBA Finals when he left and yall act like he is great. Nash knows whats up, If Dntoni system can make Lin look like an All Star after being cut from 2 teams, what do yall about Nash numbers now and Nash had better shooters around him and a young Amare. OVERRATED—-BOOK IT!!

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    The Suns won 49 games the year before they won 29 with Amare as a rookie, Marion putting up 20 and 10 and Marbury as the point guard.
    The reason they only won 29 games was Amare was hurt for a huge chunk of the year and Steph only played like 34 games before he got traded to the Knicks for Howard FREAKING Eisely.
    I hate when people make that argument for Nash. It’s total bullsh)it.
    The team that he won with was better than the same team that won 44 games in 2002-2003 when Amare was a rookie fresh out of HIGH SCHOOL.
    They just had a really bad year the next year thanks to injuries and trades.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    And the Heat made the playoffs with Wade as a ROOKIE, just like the Suns did with Amare, and Wade only averaged 16 points.
    With Shaq, his scoring average jumped to 24 points per game in only his SECOND year, which was similar to the jump in Amare’s scoring average with Nash. And the Heat gutted their team to acquire Shaq.
    So, bottom line, Nash walked into a better situation talentwise than Shaq, put up inferior numbers with an overall inferior game, and won the MVP.
    Now, the voting was very, VERY close, but it really shouldn’t have been. Nash shouldn’t have been in the discussion. And the only reason he was in the discussion the next year was because he was in the discussion the year before, even if his numbers were worthy.
    You know why it wasn’t about team turnaround, or play, or talent? Ray Allen.
    Ray Allen turned the freak Sonics into the standouts of the League in 2004-2005 and the Sonics and Suns were the two biggest early stories in the League because of their success. Ray Allen put up 24 points, 4 boards and 4 assists that year with Rashard Lewis as his second best player at 20ppg a game and an obscene talent drop off after that. And they won 52 games.
    Ray Allen finished tied for NINTH in the MVP voting. Tied with Amare.
    So, Nash winning that year was about more than his team’s play, or his play. There is no other explanation when you objectively consider the information available.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Seed, the Mavericks went to the WCF at least twice with Nash as the point guard. And of course the Suns have gone two or three times.
    Stop hating.
    Dude is either number 10 or 11 on the top point guard list, depending on how you feel about KJ.

  • aiya

    if he thinks Nash didn’t deserve MVP..why is he promoting Jeremy Lin to be the next superstar?? Lin has half the skills Nash has. I take Nash (even at 38yrs) over Lin anytime.

  • Sortahippie

    @The Seed….Is your post a joke or not, I honestly can’t tell. If you are really saying Nash sucks, then your argument(s) are just about the worst ever. If its sarcasm, then I apologize, but you are all over the place with that post. Nash is one of the best point guards ever (I am a biased PHX fan in full disclosure), and definitely deserves MVP’s, because of how he makes everyone around him better. Anytime there is a well known so called stat, or contributor to stats, called “The Nash Effect”, that should tell you something. Guys like Kobe and Shaq are beasts, but it would be really tough to make an argument that Kobe makes his team better. Granted, the original debate was about Most Valuable Player, but I felt compelled to respond that post because of how silly it was. Go get the opinion of a NBA General Manager and you’ll get a the correct opinion of Steve Nash’s worth to a team!

  • http://nba.com GP23

    Good point Allenp. I also think Kobe Bryant didn’t get the award in ’06, because I believe the media/league didn’t want to portray this image that scoring 81 points/being selfish (although, Kobe had to be with that line-up) to be rewarded with an MVP. During that time, there was a lot of hatred towards Kobe with him scoring all them points.

  • James Aka…

    The Seed should have been spilled in an unnatural act rather than conceived for us all to endure in this comments section. Book it.

  • http://hoopistani.blogspot.com hoopistani

    I love Shaq

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Allenp,
    Nash was not the leader of the Mavericks, it was Dirk and Finley. Nash didn’t lead them. You know that.
    Also with Suns, the first year Suns went to WCFinals, Amare average 37 a game, but Nash could not help. You are right Suns went to 3 Western Conference Finals, but Nash could never lead over the hump.Maybe if Nash played defense. Gimmicks work in regular season not playoffs. Nash is not top 15 point guard, You know that and KJ is ahead of Steve Nash.

  • Addam

    The Matrix for Shaq was one of the worst trades in NBA history. Kerr ruined the Suns.

  • Paul H

    As you say Allen the criteria for MVP fluctuates from fan to fan, voter to voter. Nobody seems to have a fixed construct of what the MVP winner should be, but by almost any standard he was a worthy winner one of those years. Best player on a team with a great regular season record? Check. Great stand-out numbers? Check. Oh and The seed talks broken English clean out of his a*sehole. BOOK IT.

  • Paul H

    AND THE MVP IS A REGULAR SEASON AWARD.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    You didn’t say he had to be the leader, so I thought you mistakenly believed that he only went to the WCF with one team. Excuse me.
    I agree on Nash’s defense. I agree that he’s never gotten to the Finals and that’s a black mark.
    I also understand that his team has typically had some glaring flaws, and arguably, they could have won that year when Amare and them walked on the floor.
    But, based on his numbers, his overall talent and his longevity, I have dude at number 10 on the all-time point guard list.
    I used to have him behind KJ (A totally underrated beast) but KJ was injured too much and with Nash extending his career and great offensive play for so long, he deserves to be in the top ten. I don’t see him rising any higher no matter what happens at this point though.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Paul H, check your 12:42pm comment. English is also second nature to you. Nash still did not deserve a MVP award. The white media took it to an extreme, by giving a player who was a 3rd wheel on the Mavericks to MVP’s because of an offensive system and because players got hurt. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKK IT!!!

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    Shout out to Negele Knight…

  • Paul H

    My anger at your obtuseness took over. At least you don’t deny that you “speak” out of your a*se.

  • OneStep

    Nash winning 2 MVPs is fantastic if, for no other reason, it p****s people like Shaq off. Would Shaq swap any of his rings or Finals MVPs with Nash? I’m damned sure that Nashty would be up for that! The big man’s got issues.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    You want me to tell him you said what’s up Philo?

  • http://yahoo.com rome

    lebron deserved it that year he had 30pts per game 7 rebounds and 7 assist. it was said no one had stats like that since oscar, nash got the award because he is white. the cavs even won 50 games that year and that was a big improvement. take lebron off the cavs and where would they be

  • ALEX80

    Shut the heck up, bring the Reebok Shaq again

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Magic
    Zeke
    Oscar
    Stock
    Kidd
    Clyde
    Payton
    Cooz
    Archibald
    KJ
    DJ
    Cheeks
    Ron Harper
    Nixon
    Wilkins
    Price
    Hardaway,
    Jackson
    Chris Paul
    Deron Williams
    Rajon Rondo
    Derrick Rose
    Russell Westbrook

    I would take all of these point guards over Nash and I still left off some point guards. I am done with this Nash crap, he is not top 15 all time and will not be. Most people come back with 2 MVP’s, the only thing that makes or gives him a case. I blame the MEDIA. BOOK IT!!

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    @nbk:
    Yes, please.
    Always had respect for Knight.
    Met him one time at a Suns game.
    He was a very nice guy.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Yeah he’s a really cool dude. Next time I head up to LA Fitness I’ll holler at him.

  • crooklyn

    Pretty decent list until you get to Ron Harper, then it just falls apart if you’re really trying to legitimize your blackout of Nash like that.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    @nbk:
    Appreciate it, good brother.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Why is Bob Cousy a better PG then Nash? Does anyone of a logical reason for that?

  • 1tail

    How can Nash get two MVP awards for what Jason Kidd has done his whole career?

  • http://www.twitter.com/_dfrance dfrance21

    I agree with Allenp’s explanation for why he won that second MVP. The funny thing is his number that 3rd year were even better than the first 2, but they couldn’t follow the same logic because having Nash win 3 MVPs in a row would just look absurd.

  • http://www.twitter.com/_dfrance dfrance21

    @ NBK I would have to think only nostalgic old timers believe that.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    Cousy is better due to the innovation.
    Before Cousy, no player was doing the things with the ball that Cousy was doing.
    Now, nearly every point guard since Cousy, including Magic, has a little Bob Cousy in them.
    He was a magician. Before his time. Brilliant ball handler. Brilliant floor general.
    He set the blueprint for showmanship, and basketball wizardry in the NBA.
    The original.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Is that better though? Nash has “innovated” in terms of being a PG who is (arguably) the best shooter in the NBA. That never happened before Nash. And a PG who can pass just as well with his left hand as his right, that’s also an innovation, no? – Plus, Nash thrived in an era where there were 30 teams, and half the world for a spot in the league, when Cousy really only competed with like a fifth of the whole country in his day.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I put Cousy over Nash because everybody seems to think it’s true. I refuse to put him over other players because his numbers and game say it’s not true. Honestly, I don’t have a problem with Nash being better than him. So Nash could be nine.
    My list.
    Magic
    Oscar
    Zeke
    Stockton
    Frazier
    Kidd
    Payton
    Archibald
    Nash
    Cousy
    KJ
    I mean, Seed lists a lot of really good players, but none of them have had Nash’s career. They have the potential to exceed what he’s done, especially Chris Paul, Deron, Rose and Rondo, but they haven’t actually done it yet. Paul comes the closest, but he hasn’t been out of the second round.

  • OTB

    Did someone pick Maurice Cheeks as a better PG than Nash? Tim Hardaway? Are you kidding me? I know Nash’s early career wasn’t all that great, but in his prime (2003-2007) Nash was one of the, if not, THE best PG in the league. It depends on how you define “point guard”. Derrick Rose, Westbrook, etc are not true point guards. They are scorers. Its like saying AI is a point guard. As a true PG, I’d only put Magic, Thomas, Kidd, Payton, and Stockton above him. I’m not going to comment on Cousy cause I didn’t see him play. Anyone who thinks that Tim Hardaway is better than Steve Nash, at any facet of the game other than crossovers or homophobia is kidding themselves.

    And if you want to talk about robbed – Jason Kidd was robbed in 2002, but I can’t fault Timmy for winning it.

    I’m still laughing that someone used obscure pseudo point guards as being better than Nash just to exclude him out of a “Top 15″.

  • http://www.borntocompete.com Money$hot

    Steve Nash is leading the league in assist at 38, repeat 38 yrs old on a terrible phoenix team, he is a great point guard!!!!

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Since we doing lists, and I love lists, might as well…I’ma try and put this in order, critique the sh*t out of it if you or anyone is bored, I welcome it.
    .
    – Magic
    – Oscar (even though he’s equally a 2 imo)
    – Isiah
    – Frazier
    – Stockton
    – Kidd
    – Archibald
    – Payton
    – Nash
    – KJ
    – Cousy (obviously, i’m not a big fan)

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    @nbk:
    Mark Price was a great shooter.
    Basically Steve Nash Sr. Very similar styles.
    Stockton was a great shooter, as well.

  • manu

    I love how people r hatin on nash when his team had the best record in the west back2back years…hes one of the best offensive players of all time…50 40 90 at age what …35…lmao hes too efficient…..
    And shaq stop tryin….we all know game 6 was clearly rigged…kings got robbed….but they did fck themselves in game 7…….and AI shoots 43% for his career at 6’0 playin SG..kobe shoots 45% at 6’6 same position……people can hate all they want AI is top 30 all time no questions asked

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    AllenP, you do know that Cousy shot 37% for his career? I’m not holding that against him given the era and style of play but it puts things in perspective when deciding between Nash and Cousy. Cousy should get the nod because he was a pioneer and never had the benifit of being able to pattern his game after anyone because he was the first great PG in the NBA.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Ahh, good point Philo. I didn’t think about Price at all. — But Stockton, he was never really considered the best shooter in the L, he wasn’t even really considered the best shooter on his own team once they got Hornacek.

  • Ill Smith

    Am I the only person that finds it funny following the Malice, doing away with the ‘hip hop’ look in the NBA & the dress code there were 3 white MVPs in a row (Nash twice, Dirk 1)? Just an observation…

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    Price was one of the first players in NBA History to register a 50/40/90 in a season…
    Injuries hampered his overall production for his career.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    You’re right, nbk.
    Stockton was never the best shooter in The League.
    Forgot that as a sticking point.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    I know, i just always forget about him when talking about PG’s. Playing in Cleveland his whole career has left him absent from my conscious lol

  • OTB

    White MVPs had nothing to do with the Malice. Are you saying Dirk didn’t deserve it? Dallas won 67 games that year.

  • http://www.twitter.com/_dfrance dfrance21

    I would love to make a list, but my knowledge of players like Clyde, Cousy, Tiny Archibold, Oscar comes soley off of NBA Classic videos so I don’t think I’m qualified. But from what I’ve actually seen live, my top 5 would be
    Magic
    Kidd
    Stockton
    Isiah

    Well top 4. lol

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    JTaylor
    My list was in order, so I accounted for that fact when listing Nash and Cousy.
    And I like NBK’s list with Frazier that high. Dude is regularly slept on in the all-time debate. Like criminally slept on.

  • manu

    1 Magic
    2 isiah
    3 oscar
    4 payton
    5 kidd
    6 nash
    7 stockton

  • Roybot

    Look, Nas won those two MVPs fairly and no one can ever take that away from him no matter what they argue. But MVP trophies shouldn’t factor much into greatest PGs ever, play and success does. That being said, Nash is definitely top 15 and arguably top 10. I must stress in sports there is NO objective list, only subjective ones. There is just too much differing opinions. But Check out his stats for the last 6 years. How often do you see a point guard shoot 50/40/90 three straight seasons and come close other seasons? All while averaging 10+ dimes and leading one of the most efficient offenses of all-time? Dantoni doesn’t play the games, Nash does. Look at Amares averages this year. Granted, he’s gone through some tough stretches, but I believe he wouldnt be playing this bad if he was in Phoenix with Nash.

  • OTB

    Nash is in no way better than Stock. I’d put Kidd and Stock above Payton, but Payton above Nash.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    CRIMINALLY SLEPT ON. That is damn right. smh. it bother’s me when people talk about all time greats and don’t even mention Frazier. To the point where i’m angry typing this. (Kevin Garnett “Scowl”)

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    One more thing regarding Price.
    The best pull up jump shooter in NBA History.
    Kyrie Irving reminds me of Clyde Frazier.
    He reminds me of Sam Cassell, too.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Especially consider Frazier did what he did without a 3pt line. If he actually had spacing on the court his numbers would have been absolutely bananas.

  • robb

    Nash over Stockton? are you out of your mind???

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    On board with y’all regarding Frazier. If I had to win one playoff series, I would go with Frazier over any other PG in history not named Magic, Zeke and Oscar.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Walt Frazier’s career playoff averages are pretty awesome, 21PPG, 7RPG 6APG on 51% shooting, in that day and age.

  • Tyeng12

    O dear O dear Shaq!!! Nash won the MVP in 05 because he turned a 20 win team into a 60 win team single handedly. And he did this while shooting 90/50/40 and being 1st team all NBA which only Bird has ever done. He Won in 06 because even after Amare got hurt he still got phoenix to the 2 seed and recorded career highs in all statistical categories. Anyone who says Kobe should have won forgets that the Lakers were a .500 team. No MVP should ever b on a 7 seed. OBVIOUSLY!!!!
    Oh and Nash did this whilst playing the best, most exciting, fan friendley Ball since Magic. For the record he should be a THREE time MVP. He was robbed in 07′. So that clears the MVP’s up.
    For those saying Nash is the 8th (or lower) greatest PG ever need to realise Nash’s legacy. He’s already statistically the Greatest shooter in the History of the NBA (If he shot as much as Kobe he’d score 50 a night minimum). He’s in the top 2 or 3 play makers ever. He’s a Two time MVP (Fact) and he’s inspired an entire generation of pass first point guards.Not to mention that at 38 he’s still producing more than any other 38 year old ever has.
    The only Black Mark is the lack of a ring, which is fair enough I suppose. If he was Ever to get that Ring he’d b an Easy 4th greatest PG behind 1 Magic 2 Oscar and 3 Isiah. Anyone who says Stockton was better never watched him play.
    You Just got Schooled!!!!

  • http://www.slamonline.com jdubbs29

    What’s Dwight Howard gonna say when Jeremy Lin wins back to back MVP’s?

  • xx_JOMMOMA_xx

    Nash is the best pure shooting point guard of all time….

    somebody anybody step up and tell me one other point guard who is a better shooter… and dont bother saying isiah because of one finals game on a sprained ankle.. props isiah but u cant shoot like the kid.

    hes white … so you all hate..
    admit it.

    look at the stats

    REAL QUESTION IS HOW DIDNT HE 3 PEAT MVP?

    WHY didnt nash get the 3rd MVP when he dominated the league even more after the first 2?

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    The guy had arguably the greatest Gm7 peformance in NBA history.

  • rainman10

    Larry Bird won 3 MVPs. I think he is white.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Game 7 1988 finals, James Worthy – is my pick JT

  • Heals

    Bullshht! Others may’ve been MORE deserving (Kob), but in no way was Stevie undeserving…

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    Always got a kick out of Frazier on breakaways.
    He would push the ball all the way up court. As his defender gives chase, Clyde gets close to the basket, would act like he would go up for a hard layup. Then he stops, waits for the defender to fly out of bounds. Then, Frazier would simply toss the ball in without barely even jumping.
    Funny as hell.
    He did that frequently.

  • http://slamonline.com datkid

    I have honestly never been able to decide if he deserved both. I need a way to watch more of steve nash’s classic games tho

  • bike

    And Frazier, without question, was the number one point guard of all-time in terms of style, dress, swagger and vocabulary. Walt was the coolest nba player, ever, period.
    Put that in your pipe, Shaq, and smoke it.

  • Jimmy

    xx

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Today’s discussion is why i love SLAM

  • Shecky Shabazz

    @t money you’re joking right? Cp3 was cooking during those years? Cp3 was really putting in work at Wake Forest in 2005 when Nash won his first MVP. And his 16 and 8 his rookie year (I believe that’s what he averaged; going from what I can remember) was real monster considering Nash was still putting up a double double with practically a new starting line up on top of Amare being out for the year. Nash didn’t deserve the second one. That should’ve been Kobe’s.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    And if this thread closes for a while, nbk’s comment @2:59 p.m. is fitting.

  • Tyeng12

    Steve Nash : 4th or 5th Greatest PG EVER
    Shaq : 5th or 6th Greatest Centre Ever

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    nbk, that was a great performance but I think Frazier’s 36pts/19asts/5stl line (with a hobbled willis reed) is a little bit more impressive than Worthy’s 36/16/10. You can’t go wrong choosing either one.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    Quick question, my brethren;
    Where does Chauncey Billups rank in all time point guards?

  • Heals

    bk, funny yu bring up Frazier being slept on (more like hibernated on), cause one of his fav pg’s in the L is TParker another guy who doesn’t get the pub his game has earned…

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Taylor, oh definitely, both were ridiculously great performances. I think I value Worthy’s performance more because of how many times I’ve actually watched it honestly.

  • Heals

    C-, Shaq getting graded on the curve, cause I’d give em’ D at best. Less is more with Shaq and the past few days has been an overdose for many of us…

  • VanCityVibe

    I agree with shaq on this one

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Heals, I think Parker will get his recognition in the end. This year is opening a lot of peoples eyes

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Philo, around 13-14.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    HA!
    Good sh1t…

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Hmmm, it’s hard to place Billups
    .
    .
    That might take me a while.

  • Zabbah

    Tony Parker is killing it. Spurs for the title. At least Finals. Ok, WCF.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Is Billups even better than Tony Parker all-time?

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    NO.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    What position do y’all think of Alvin Robertson? Sidney Moncrief? Gail Goodrich?
    .
    Regardless though, Billups falls somewhere between 13 and 18. I have to do some research to make my final decision though.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher.

    Robertson, in my estimation, would be a top 50.
    Billups, as well. Top 50.
    Moncrief is on the all time underrated list.
    Goodrich, too.
    Robertson is the best ball thief, maybe, in NBA History.
    Single season record, and all of that.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    Robertson, in my estimation, is top 50.
    Billups, as well. Top 50.
    Moncrief is on the all time underrated list.
    Goodrich, too.
    Robertson is the best ball thief, maybe, in NBA History.
    Single season record, and all of that.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    Oshay Blaylock was a great ball thief, too.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    TP- career 17/6/3 on 49% shooting during RS
    19/5/3 on 46% shooting during the Playoffs
    CBillups- 15/5/3 on 41% shooting during RS
    18/6/3 on 41% shootind during the Playoffs
    Both players have a Final MVP trophy but TP has 3 championships to CBillups’ 1 and he’s 6yrs younger.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Yeah I have TP higher on my list, despite the age gap. Parker is going to be a sniff outside the top 10 if he stays healthy and keeps winning.

  • http://www.dimemag.com showtime

    Why dont The pistol pete , dont get enough rec, in probably the best alltime college player in history. Handles was decades beyond, but never get top 10 0r 15 mentions>>>

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    He was a shooting guard in the NBA.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    He was a 6’5″ SG. He was a real good passer and played play maker quite often, but he was definitely score first. One of the greatest talents of all time with out a doubt, but he isn’t going to be in any point guard debates.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    dammit nbk

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Philo, quit taking the easy way out and give us a definite estimation on where Billups ranks in your book, none of that top-50 crap.
    ARobertson/Moncrief were both 2-guards. If we were talking strictly defense, they would be in the Top-5 in terms of SG but overrall, they are around 22-24 for me.
    It’s a little bit harder to rank a guy like Goodrich because at times he played both the 1 and 2.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    While I was discrediting an opinion on Billups, I had Pistol Pete as a point guard. He played some point during his NBA career.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    JT21:
    I will say this;
    Billups damned sure is not a top 15 talent.
    Top 20, either.
    If I throw a random number out there, I’d say 40.
    Admittedly, I’d have to give it more thought. As I type this, now I’m thinking 45, maybe.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    My thing about Robertson and Moncrief (and Goodrich) is that they did play entire seasons as their teams PG. And they did their most defensive damage in those years. For Example, Robertson in San Antonio played a TON of PG. Moncrief played like a hybrid 1-2 next to Paul Pressey. Never really knew how to categorize him.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Please Billups is not even in my top 35, maybe 40. Billups is more overrated than Steve Nash. He is still living off 3 good years as the Pistons point guard. Also there is a reason Pistons didn’t want him anymore. BOOK IT!!

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    I booked mine. Everyone else book theirs?

  • http://sajkfldl.com Jukai

    Kinda agree.

  • BlackNicholson

    06 was Kobe’s MVP, the NBA didn’t want to have an accused rapist as their MVP. Point blank period…

  • xx_JOMMOMA_xx

    nash could average 28 a night
    but he chooses to make chumps look like champs
    thats an MVP

    chauncey is done they proved in new york he is a defensive liability

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    The NBA doesn’t give MVP to player’s on crappy teams.

  • Joe Black

    Shaq has been a bitter immature trouble making punk since high school and throughout his entire career. Shaq shows major emotional issues and psychogical problems. Not uncommon for abused children later in life. Shaq says his dad beat him when he was little.

    He has had everything in life handed to him on a protected platter every since his 8th grade growth spurt. Hence, he has not learned a damn thing, and no doubt he won’t seek the help he needs to deal w/ his obvious problems.

    No surprise he continues his whiny crap after retirement. Nash won those MVP’s due to the fact that he possesses qualities that Shaq never did. Hard work and developed skills not restricted by pure laziness, a demented psyche and total dependence on the body he was born with.

    Shaq has always displayed the intellect of a dung beetle. While accusing that missed shots down the stretch defines one as having no balls and can’t handle pressure, he forgets that he had to be benched at the end of every tight game because he couldn’t make “free shots” w/ no one guarding him.

    Shaq is just too ignorant to have any clue that the people telling him what to say in interviews are making him the absolute benighted fool.

  • Rainman

    Shaq is probably the biggest douche in sports, basketball at least, during that early 00 era.

    Compleeeeeeeeetely disagree about ur Nash stance, and we all know the only reason the Kings never beat the Lakers were because of the Refs..

  • http://sajkfldl.com Jukai

    OH! OH! LISTS!
    Magic
    Oscar
    Zeke
    Stockton
    Kidd
    Frazier
    Payton
    Cousy
    Archibald
    Nash
    KJ
    DJ
    hmm… gets hard from here… I’ll come back later..

  • Rainman

    and Againnnnnnnn( i dont get tired of this lol) The Seed looks like a jackass with his gripe about Nash. BOOK IT!

  • manu

    Revised list

    1 magic
    2 isiah

    Everybody else

  • tonyknorr

    at this point I am convinced that SEED is a chat bot designed solely to piss off intelligent basketball fans because no human would consistently make such an ass out of themselves the way SEED seems to.

  • http://www.facebook.com/joe.l.brewer3 BlackPhantom

    Magic
    Oscar
    Zeke
    Stockton
    Kidd
    Frazier
    Archibald
    Payton
    Cousy
    Nash
    DJ
    KJ

    Honorable mention to Pistol Pete, even though he played 2 mostly if I’m not mistaken.

  • jim buss sux!

    most season MVP awards were given to the the capt. of the team that has the best regular season record. PERIOD. but i think when kobe won the award in 08, i think the celts have the better record, but because they have the big 3. in 08 the fave MVP was cp3 bcause they have a better record in mid season, but the lakers at the end of the regular season finished with the better record over NOH with the help of Gasol.

  • jim buss sux!

    reg. season MVPs were awarded to the players who led their team with the best record in the regular season. nash led the suns with bak2bak 60+ wins that’s why he won bak2bak mvps. PERIOD!

  • jags

    reg. season MVPs were awarded to the players who led their team with the best record in the regular season. nash led the suns with bak2bak 60+ wins that’s why he won bak2bak mvps. PERIOD!

  • tavoris

    Nash outplayed his own career (statistically) up to that point, which won him those MVP’s.

    Shaq was so damn good (in his prime), that he put himself out of the running by forcing EVERY team to adjust their rosters to battle him 3-4 times a year.

    Shaq was a legit MVP candidate every year he played over 60 games for that reason alone.

    Unfortunately, the MVP isn’t always the best player in the NBA, or else Jordan would have had 10 of them.

  • Da-Meat-Hook

    Nash’s stroke, vision, and longevity are things of beauty. But anyone who puts him in their top 8 pgs of all time place NO emphasis on defense whatsoever! I thought that’s why we love our MJ’s, our Duncan’s, and our KGs. Because damn near every night, they got theirs on offense, and absolutely DOMINATED the game on the defensive end. Same can be said for Lebron and a younger Kobe. Even though Nash was an absolute BEAST on offense, his defense was consistently mediocre at best. I’d take a player that was an all-star on offense and an “All-World” on defense, like Gary Payton all day every day.

  • Steven

    SHAQ ISNT A GOOD BASKETBALL PLAYER. The one only reason he was so good was because of how big and tall he his. It doesnt require much skill to dunk when and post up players when your that big and tall. Just remeber the HACK-A-SHAQ term made up because he couldnt even shoot.

    NASH has better skills, he actually has to try hard on everything because of his size

  • http://www.google.com/news BETCATS

    This conversation about Nash happens every year and I still don’t get it. He has the MVPs, he will never return them. While race defiantly was a factor in the voting (Iverson had an equally deserving season the first time, Kobe was unstoppable the second time), race is also a factor in why we keep hearing about it. Because Nash was white that will always cause more resentment to the fact he wasn’t arguably the most deserving.

  • http://obsessioncollection.wordpress.com grgeblck

    you see, when he is out of the league, he needs other incomes. so he needs to say all these crap to get people’s attention. way to go, shaq.

  • JB

    TNT, please fire shaq

  • http://wikipedia.org Eddie1

    Inside the NBA has been so hard to watch since Shaq started. And y’all were clownin how he’d be lightyears better than Chris Webber. Right… I knew his humor wouldn’t work. Get the big aristotle some subtitles.

  • http://Slamonline.com Mars

    Someone needs to hack Shaq. Oh yeah Shaq Daddy make a free throw to save doctor phil but cant save face on a former teammate geez. Hater. Only one person can get the MVP. JKidd, GHill, VC, GP…great players have been robbed before.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    ^^^Check my posts, I told everyone Shaqs basketball knowledge is worst than most people who watch basketball. Cwebb had insight on the game and TNT brought him back for All Star game. Like I stated Shaq is just trying to be a big Kevin Hart personality. Also Kevin Hart went overboard at the celebrity game. No over thirty year old man needs to act like a buffoon for laughs. Shaq comment after someone makes a shots in highlights, makes you want to break your TV. Also he is sucking up to Kobe to much on the TNT set, stating the Black Mamba, most dangerous snake. I am glad people are finally seeing him as the dumby he is. If Shaq was the so called leader or big brother to the other lakers he states now on the TNT set, him and Kobe would have eight rings together. Shaq leading for four rings and Kobe leading for four rings. I can’t stand Shaq dumb since, TNT messed up. I rather listen to Magic broken English than Shaq acting like he knows basketball. BOOK IT!!

  • Otis

    Look at that photo, though. Just look at it. Look at the natural gifts Shaquille had when he came into the league – size, athleticism, uncanny agility for a man that big. He had it all. And look at Nash – small in NBA terms, slight, not blessed with anything like Shaq’s ability to simply bulldoze the best basketballers in the world out of his way. Shaq could have been the best ever, but he was lazy – too lazy to practice free throws, too lazy to stay in shape, too lazy to be what he could have been. Nash has maximised his talent and then transcended it. And here they are, Nash still in the league, Shaq retired and bitter. Shaq shouldn’t complain – he has the championships, after all – while Nash has his MVPs and no rings. But I know who I respect more.

  • http://sajkfldl.com Jukai

    You know what the worst part is? Shaq actually isn’t bad on NBATV, and I don’t know why he’s so forced and so unfunny on TNT. I just don’t think he meshes well with Charles and Kenny.

  • Jerome

    Nash won MVP’S because he made everyone around him exceedingly better. While simultaneously scoring whenever anyone cheated off his underathletic, white a$$. Best pick’n'roll shooter of all time.

  • Golakeshow

    Steve Nash is better than you shaq

  • http://slamonline house

    I reckon Nash deserved his 2 MVP’s not only because he made his teammates consistently better year in year out but also because of his demeanor on and off the court.

  • Justin G.

    Some interesting reading to say the least. I’ll give a list too:

    Magic
    Oscar (not really a straight PG but I’ll put him in)
    Stockton
    Isiah
    Kidd
    Frazier
    Nash
    Archibald
    Payton
    Cousy

    I honestly don’t know why you guys have Payton up so high. All he did better than Nash was play defense. He was not a better passer, playmaker, shooter, free throw shooter, scorer…exactly what is it then that makes Payton better?

    As for Lebron supposedly earning the MVP with his 30/7/7 season, Michael Jordan averaged 32.5/8/8 in the 88/89 season and lost to Magic Johnson. Just sayin’

    And once again, stats don’t tell the whole story. I know a lot of guys like nbk and JTaylor like to use stats to back up their claims and arguements but stats don’t tell the whole story for a guy like Nash. It’s what he did to make the players around him so much better. I REALLY wish people would stop with the “it was the system he played in” BS too. Magic played in an uptempo style with Hall of Famers around him but nobody talks about his numbers being inflated because of it. Why does Magic get a pass for it but Nash doesn’t? And the one thing that everyone (except for Paul H) seems to forget is that the MVP is for the REGULAR SEASON! It has nothing to do with playoff performances. See Dirk Nowitzki as a prime example

  • Jimmy

    Peja and Christie missed open 3′s down the stretch, but didn’t Kobe miss a layup and Shaq miss an open put back before Robert Horry saved their ass?

  • Jimmy

    @Justin “all he did better than Nash was play defense”???? Really? Thats okay, since defense is the most important part of the sport. Payton: 1 ring, Nash: 0 rings.

  • Yesse

    Lol. Shaq is just mad, because he was number 2 on the MVP race back then.

  • STEVE

    It is hard work making some thing this pretty look like a chump. Or a geek.

  • http://sajkfldl.com Jukai

    Anyone see Oscar in his Milwaukee days? Easiest footage to get of him, and also proof he easily could play a true point guard.
    @Justin: Honestly? The ring makes Payton better. Same with Archibald. You know my feelings about Phoenix being the real champs in 2007, but them the ropes. Archibald and Payton were contributors on championship teams. Yes, without Payton’s clutch buckets, Miami would have lost to Dallas. It is what puts them ahead with little argument you can make.

  • Dungeon Family

    I’m so Glad people finally seeing That SHAQ was the Main problem

    Every Team He leave he S**t on em and the players

    He just one Big ass jealous Person

  • ab40

    Yeah Shaq deserved mvp in 05 and Kobe, Nash or Lebron in 06.

  • Dan

    sounds like shaq is jealous n sour BUT nash really didnt deserve it twice. totally true that he wouldnt have earned it only once if he was a black tattooed guy. they wouldve said “amazing player but we cant hand smbdy the mvp with that lack of defense”

  • hoops

    nash deserves it…. he’s a true point guard making his teammates better.. Nash is the tru definition of a point guard… point guard is a point not a shooting one…. look at Marcin…. what can u say about it @The seed…. Nash one of the most effective in pick and roll palys… His pass was dominating…

  • Justin G.

    Jukai, that might be one of the dumbest arguments I’ve ever heard in my life. Championship rings is the absolute most ridiculous way to sum up how good a player was when comparing players. By your rationale, Gary Payton and Archibald were better point guards than John Stockton right? I mean hey, they won championships. And calling Gary Payton a contributor on that Miami team is quite a stretch. He may have hit a couple of shots but he was a 37 year old guard scoring 7.7 points a game. I guess Robert Horry is better than Michael Jordan because he has more rings. Steve Kerr is the greatest champion since the Bill Russell Celtics because he was the first player since then to win 4 straight. Sorry but if there’s anyone that has “little argument” my friend, it’s you. Gary Payton was not a better point guard than Steve Nash

  • i_ball

    Divac played ball while the US were bombing the city he was in. Sure he has no balls.

  • Donatello

    I am not gonna start to discuss nash and his mvps but id like to point out that the kings GOT balls and destroyed shaq’s lakers easily until the refs started to screw up the series and handed the win over to la

  • Justin G.

    i_ball, how does that show Divac had balls? Was he flopping all over the court as a tribute to his fallen brethren back home?

  • i_ball

    Justin G, if you go to practice and bombs are flying all over the place you have balls period. A lot of guys flop… The first example that comes to mind is Paul Pierce in the wheelchair. What do you think about him then?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    When you’re comparing all-time greats, special credence has to be given to rings when many other things are equal. That’s why rings are important. Stockton was so much better than everybody else beneath him (with the exception of Frazier) that his lack of rings doesn’t deduct enough points for him to drop very far.
    Payton didn’t just “Play defense.” He was elite. For years he was hands down the best point guard in the League when cats like Penny, Jason Kidd and Stockton were hooping.
    He was a better “scorer” than Nash because he had a scorer’s mentality. He wasn’t on Nash’s level as a passer. He was clearly just as much of a leader since he went to the Finals with a less talented team in a more talented League. And his defense was so offense he hounded Jordan to the worst three game stretch of his playoff career.
    Basically, if you go down the checklist, the slight advantages that Nash had over Payton in some categories in no way compare to the MASSIVE advantage Payton had in one. If you can’t see that, it’s because you don’t want to.

  • Tyeng12

    Allen P did you ever watch John Stockton Play Basketball. Did you know he never EVER was top 5 in MVP Voting. So in all of his 20 seasons he was never once considered one of the best 5 players in a season. He was routinely Outplayed by opposion PGs (I watched KJ DESTROY him in person once) and he was the single dullest player since Kareem and his 20 sky hook a night.
    The Only good argument for Stockton is his 15,000 Assists which came partly coz of the relaxed assist criteria and partly coz he was feeding one of the greatest finishers in NBA history.
    I’m not saying Stockton isnt a hall of famer, but revisionist history ranks him greater than he actually was.

  • Tyeng12

    O and anyone who says Gary Payton was better than Steve Nash has no business offering their opinion to a Basketball Discussion!!!!

  • http://sajkfldl.com Jukai

    Justin G: everyone gauges all-time greats differently. Allen P was right when he said Stockton is so much better than Payton, Nash and Archibald that it’s irrelevant to include rings.
    When I gauge players, I generally use a five point system (Skill, team success, accolades, dominance in era/outside of NBA, how they advanced the NBA with their popularity or style) so a ring is very valuable in my opinion. I know its a team sport, but you’re only great if you were lucky enough to play on a team that got you a ring. Once again, dem the ropes.

  • http://sajkfldl.com Jukai

    Tyeng12: that ‘laxed’ assist record came at a time when NBA offense was at its all-time low. All things are equal buddy, he played in a time where point guards simply didn’t get recognition for their MVP awards. Oh, but you watched KJ destroy him “once” so yeah, he must not be so great.

  • Jerome

    Add some KJ hops to Nash and he would be the undisputed #1 on any true basketball head’s list. Imagine nash dunking on Duncan in ’07 … that’s BIG.

  • Tyeng12

    Jukai I was merely using wen I saw him as an example. Your right about the slow offense but that simply played into Stocktons hands. How many of those 15,000 assists were merely slow it down and ‘dump the ball to Karl Malone inside’ passes?? And If he was THAT good then why would the league not appreciate his value?? Was there some sort of anti point guard bias in the late 80s early 90s?? No there wasnt. just fact is he wasn’t that good. He was lucky that he played long enough that everyone forgot his playoff resume from 89 to 96 and instead remember 97 and 98.
    Look I watched most of his career, I was there and no way is he better than Magic, Isiah, Nash, Kidd, KJ or even Penny Hardaway at his peak.

  • Justin G.

    I would even go so far as to say Gary Payton in his prime was not better than Penny Hardaway in his prime and he wasn’t better than Jason Kidd either, which is why most have him ranked above Payton on the all time lists as well. A couple of good years does not make a career (despite what a lot of posters on here think). I would even question whether the Suns teams were more talented than the Sonics team that got to the Finals as well as whether the competition was better back then as well. They had two completely different styles. Seattle predicated on defense and obviously Phoenix was not. All of that doesn’t matter though. We’re talking about individual players and comparisons. Just because Payton played far superior defense doesn’t make up for the things he was not better at than Nash. And that was EVERYTHING ELSE as I wrote above. The reason I said rings don’t matter in the comparison of these two is because Payton got his without being a major contributor to that team. He was 37 years old and was ring hunting. Nash at 37 vs. Payton at 37 isn’t even remotely close

  • Vetsix

    I have only 2 things to say and y’all can have the forum back. First Shaq was a great player period. His intellect has never been his strong suit neither has his character. Allowing him to be a part of an emmy winning show only lends credibility to an otherwise moronic figure. Quiet him by ignoring his idiocy.
    Second I have never been a Steve Nash fan but he has proven to be as good a pg as has ever played the game. Magic had 4 other HOFers with him,Isaiah had 3, Stockton had Malone and a defenseless Western Conference, Jason Kidd was probably the only pg great with less consistently in the cupboard (other than Terry and Nowitzki). But Nash has ALWAYS made EVERYONE better. Amare, Grant Hill, Jason Richardson,Gortat and the list goes on all played their best ball alongside Nash. D’antoni (with multiple 60 win seasons) is hands down the worst Xs and Os guy in the business. Keep in mind Coaches don’t get fired or resign around this guy (sorry Dwill) nor do players mutiny (Iverson, Kenny Anderson, Tim Hardaway) I could go on but i’m bored having to explain this to you all. Nash has always been stellar and whether he deserved them or not it was long overdue that sheer quality was rewarded. Be easy

  • Rainman

    ^ cosign to the fullest extent.

    To add on to that list of players he made look a lot better, there was Boris Diaw, Raja Bell, Leando Barbosa, MArion, QUENTIC RICHARDSON, all these guys pretty much “fell off” as a lot of ppl say, after leaving PHX, but did anyone consider the reason why they were ever “on” in the first place? (granted, MArion was an all star before nash came along, but Nash made him a top 5 MVP candidate ALONG with HIMSELF that year Amare was out…)

  • Rainman

    J- Rich, Marcin Gortat now, Channing Frye was never ever a shooter, or even a threat to do ANYTHING, even LOU AMUNDSON … LOL.

    Can anyone on ur top 10 list even come close to listing as many players that they made A LOT better? Other than Jason Kidd i would guess (see K-Mart, Richard Jefferson, even KErry Kittles)

    And dont give me the BS that Nash is the result of having D’aintoni and Amare… Nash is doing the same great stuff on a much less offensively talented team now, with a different coach. Where as D’antoni has never had a real succesful season since leaving PHX, and when was the last time Amare really dominated? Who needed who again?

    Steve Nash is the epitome of a true point guard, one of the beest true point guards we have EVER seen. Period.

  • Rainman

    @ Jukai: Payton went off ring searching tho, at 37 he was just a role player on a championship team (Something Nash can easily be, and then some if he ever chose to leave PHX). Compare Nash to payton at 37…Was that ring THAT big a difference? I mean Nash cud have shot those open 3′s from the corner with his eyes closed if u put him in the same situation right now, without him even warming up. Only reason it came off as a surprise to ppl that Payron hit that shot, was Payton was never THAT great a shooter, where as Nash we all know is one of the greatest and most effecient ever. Dont get me started on the shooting percentages either…only person that comes close percentage wise is the Great LArry Bird.

  • Rainman

    I absolutely loved Gary Payton btw…but it’s not even that close to me, personally. Nash is consistently great, over a long period of time, regardless of who he’s playing for, or under. (contrary to popular belief that he needs a certain system to succeed)

  • DEVON

    In 05 when Shaq first got to Mia and got them to the ECF while the Lakers missed the Playoffs, I’ll give him that one… but in 06 Nash didn’t have Stoudemire, his starting 5 was him Raj, Marion, Diaw and Tim Thomas and he carried those guys to the WCF…funny thing is 07 (no MVP) was his best statistical year in PHX and he had a better team with Stat and Kurt Thomas up front and they lost in the 2nd Rd thanks to Robert Horry’s hip check in game 4…

  • DMC14

    Shaq is Jealous cause when he came to Phoenix he destroyed the team and there still feeling the effects now.

  • Tony Icon

    Kobe was robbed by Nash one year. Since CP3 came in the league he has been better than Nash. CP3 was robbed by Kobe. I felt like Kobe got it because he was due one after all these years. It was one of his worst. Steve Nash is a great future Hall of Famer but I don’t understand where back-to-back MVPs came from. Many players have improved their teams’ records. He can’t dominate a game when he wants to. He is a great shoother from the field and the line but doesn’t shoot a lot. He can assist with the best of them. You know everybody looks for play on both sides of the court and are really big on game winners.

  • http://nba.com airpippen33

    Steve Nash is the least talented player to be named league mvp in the last 30 yrs. Would you trust Nash to take the game winning shot with a defender drapped all over him like a cheap suit? Nash probably wouldn’t be able to get the shot off. KJ was 50 times better than Nash, it’s not even close. If Nash had to guard a KJ, Tim Hardaway,or Gary Patron at the peak of their careers he would get destroyed! KJ was so good that opposing teams had to put their tall, athletic shooting guards on him just to slow him down. Aside from Nash’s limited skills the numbers don’t lie.

    1. Nash is the only two time mvp to never play in the NBA Finals.
    2. Nash,Karl Malone, and Lebron James are the only multiple mvp winners never to win an NBA Championship. Lebron probably will win a championship and MJ prevented Malone from winning as he did several other truly great players.
    3. Nash is the only player to be named mvp despite not leading his team in scoring. Stockton averaged over 13 apg and more than 2 spg for several seasons in a row and never came close to being named mvp.
    4. In the last 30 yrs, maybe longer, Nash is the only player to be named mvp while only leading his team in one MAJOR statistical category. During the 2005-06 season, Shawn Marion lead the Suns in scoring(21.8 ppg),rebounding(11.9 rpg),steals(2.0 spg), and blocks(1.7 bpg). Marion should’ve been named mvp that year instead of Nash.
    5. Nash is the first player to be named mvp despite not averaging at least 20 ppg for the season.
    6. Though winning 54 games is great, I can’t remember the last time a guy was named mvp coming from a team that won so few games. During the 1992-93 season, Hakeem Olajuwon averaged 26.1 ppg, 12.3 rpg, and 3.5 bpg and wasn’t named mvp because Charles Barkley’s team won 62 games compared to the Rockets 55 wins. Olajuwon had a terrible supporting cast that year.

    While playing for Dallas during the first round of the 2003 NBA playoffs, Steve Nash was invisible. The only thing he could do well, then and now is make an open 3 pointer. If it wasn’t for Dirk Nowitzki and Nick Van Exel, the Mavericks would have lost that series. Nash sucks, I can lock up his slow ass!

    To sum it all up: Steve Nash is a decent point guard. He’s a great ball handler and he’s a great free-throw shooter. It really doesn’t matter that he shoots foul shouts well cause he only goes to line once or twice a game. That’s because he can’t create his own shot and he rarely drives to the basket. To the ppl that think Nash was better than KJ or those other superstar point guards from the nineties, get real. Those guys were unstoppable!! Mark Jackson and Andre Miller both led the league in assists once in their respective careers. How did that happen? I don’t know. Would you consider those guys elite point guards as well? Nash has managed to league in assists multiple times for that same reason, whatever the reason is. The Suns have missed the playoffs three out of the last four seasons. The Suns won 54 games and made it to the western conference finals in 2010. The next season, Amare heads to New York and the Suns only won 40 games. What happened? Nash is without a doubt, the most overrated player in NBA history. Nash is also the least talented and most undeserving player to be named mvp in NBA history. Like my boy Sheed once said, “The ball don’t lie”!

  • http://learnaboutherbs.com/member.php?1810-DeessyLob Elda Mcartor

    After i retire I’d love to move to Hawaii.

  • FUCK OFF 69

    YOU DON’T KNOW SHIT DICKWAD.

  • Anthony K Nketiah

    Idiot. Go to hell. the number 13. point guard is a BACK 2 BACK MOST Valuable Player deservedly. He could have led phoenix to a title if were not for cheating referees. Kill yourself

  • Tony

    WELL I Believe Dirk Novitski took it that year. deservedly. NASH and dirk were mvps during this time period. but especially nash

  • Philippe4086

    Nash back-to back MVP was a joke! It was ununderstandable.

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