Tuesday, March 6th, 2012 at 8:35 am  |  162 responses

Post Up: Mile High Miracle

The Wolves take down Lob City, OKC outlasts the Mavs and total craziness in Denver.

by Abe Schwadron | @abe_squad

Last night was just one big, never-ending #LeaguePassAlert. Let’s get it.

Magic 92, Raptors 88

Dwight Howard missed 8 of his 9 fourth quarter free throw attempts and the Raptors pulled within 2 points twice in the last 31 seconds, but JJ Redick drilled a corner 3-pointer with 9.7 seconds left and sank a pair of free throws with 5 seconds left as Orlando escaped Toronto to improve to 25-14 on the year. It was a slow-paced affair, as the teams combined for just 15 fast break points, and Howard finished with 36 points (16-20 FGs) and 13 rebounds but missed a total of 10 free throws. Ryan Anderson put up 19 points and 13 boards and Redick had 13 points for the Magic, winners of 9 of their last 12 games. The Raptors made a 9-0 run in the third quarter that briefly gave them a 2-point lead, before Howard ripped off 11 points—including one thunderous alley-oop finish via Redick—over the next 5 and a half minutes to put Orlando back in charge. DeMar Derozan scored 23 points to lead the Raps, Jerryd Bayless had 15 off the bench (plus 5 assists and 6 rebounds), James Johnson delivered a solid 13-7-7 line and even Aaron Gray deserves a mention, with his 11×11 double-double.

Warriors 120, Wizards 100

Poor John Wall. It’s nights like these I get really worked up about the kid—about him getting overlooked because his teammates are so awful, about him looking incredible but no one noticing, instead opting for the jokes about the team’s ineptitude and unfairly lumping him in with them. Wall racked up 20 points (on 7-10 shooting), 14 assists and 6 rebounds and only 2 turnovers, and he probably could have had a half-dozen more dimes if not for some horrific shooting nights from other Wizards, like Chris Singleton (1-7, 2 points), Jordan Crawford (2-13, 5 points) and Andray Blatche (2-6, 4 points). Nick Young’s 25 points came mostly on isolations, and Washington shot 56 percent from the free throw line, missing 16 freebies. As for Golden State, what better way to get back on track on a poor road trip than to play the Wiz? Over the first four games of their trip, the Warriors shot 18 percent from the 3-point line and scored about 78 points per game—last night they made 15 of 23 threes (65 percent) and scored 120 points. Monta Ellis scored 25 points (3 of which were assisted by Javale McGee) and sat out the fourth quarter, Klay Thompson added 18, and Stephen Curry made a surprise appearance off the bench to score 12 points in 9 minutes on 5-7 shooting, including one ridiculous 3-pointer with time running out in the third quarter.

Jazz 109, Cavaliers 100

Al Jefferson: 23 points, 12 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 blocks, 0 turnovers? Aight, I see you. The Jazz shot 50 percent from the field as a team, and fed Big Al the rock all night, and got a season-high 23 from Gordon Hayward, as they improved to 18-19 on the year and got just their 4th road win. Jefferson and the boys inside won the battle on the glass 46-30 (a season-low for the Cavs), and had 13 offensive rebounds. Cleveland’s leading scorers were Antawn Jamison and Kyrie Irving, with 22 apiece, but Jamison had more assists (6) than Irving (4) and the Cavs shot9-23 from 3-point range as they dropped their sixth straight and fourth in a row at home. Utah led by as many as 17, using a 22-8 run to end the first half to take a 15-point lead into the break. In that second quarter, the Cavs shot just 3-16 from the field. The Jazz bench outscored Cleveland’s 46-33, helping to snap a six-game road losing streak.

Bulls 92, Pacers 72

Think the Bulls wanted this one? Last time these two hooked up, Chicago took exception to the Pacers’ celebratory reaction to beating the MVP and company. This time, there would be no celebration for Indiana. The Bulls won their seventh straight game and snapped Indy’s 6-game winning streak behind 20 points from Luol Deng (despite 1-7 shooting in the first half), 13 points and 9 dimes from Derrick Rose and 17 rebounds from Joakim Noah. Chicago’s bigs dominated all night long, outrebounding the Pacers 60-32 and holding All-Star center Roy Hibbert to just 2 points. Paul George scored 21 points to lead Indiana, but the Pacers managed to score only 72 points, a season-low. The Bulls are still the NBA’s best at 32-8, and are now an incredible 11-2 on the second night of back-to-backs this year. The only shred of bad news for Chi-town was that Rip Hamilton left in the first quarter, citing his right shoulder.

Bucks 97, Sixers 93

Brandon Jennings scored 14 of the Bucks’ first 19 points and had 19 points in the first quarter, but Philly jumped out to a 10-point first-half lead. The Bucks slowly got back into the game, and then used a 15-0 run in the fourth quarter to take an 8-point lead late. In this back and forth affair, that wasn’t nearly enough to feel comfortable, as the Sixers stormed back behind 26 points from Lou Williams. Williams tied the game at 93 after Jennings fouled him on a 3-point attempt with one minute remaining, but Beno Udrih responded with a short jumper, and LouWill missed a runner with less than 10 seconds left that would have sent this one to overtime. The Bucks (15-23) scored 21 fast break points, to just 6 for Philadelphia, and were buoyed by Jennings’ monster 33-point, 7-assist game, plus big games from the frontcourt duo of Ersan Ilyasova (11 points, 18 rebounds) and Drew Gooden (25 and 10). The Sixers fall to 22-17, and have quietly been pretty bad lately—2-8 over their last 10, 0-7 in games decided by 4 points or less and now only 1.5 games up on Boston in the Atlantic division.

Thunder 95, Mavericks 91

Dirk Nowitzki hit a 3-pointer to give the Mavericks an 88-85 lead with 4 minutes left to play, but from there on in, the Thunder controlled the game in its clutch moments, getting a huge answer 3 from Russell Westbrook, forcing Dirk into a bad turnover with 1:20 to play, and then locking down on defense to take out the Champs and slide to 30-8 on the year. Dallas couldn’t get a shot off while down 92-91 with under 40 seconds to play, then looked totally confused on the game’s last possession (Jason Kidd and Jason Terry ran into each other on the baseline, and Dirk never got a touch). The already short-handed Mavs lost Brendan Hawyood seconds into the game, and looked out of sync outside of Nowitzki, who scored 27 points. Westbrook led the Thunder in scoring with 24 points, Kevin Durant added 22, Kendrick Perkins hauled down 16 rebounds and Serge Ibaka had another weirdly awesome Serge Ibaka line, with 8 points, 7 rebounds and 6 blocked shots. Ibaka also hit a pair of clutch free throws with under a minute left to help stave off the Mavs. OKC won despite shooting 38 percent from the field, aided in part by a 19-point advantage at the free throw line.

Timberwolves 95, Clippers 94

Chris Paul had a clean look at a 3-pointer with under a minute to play and the Clippers down 5, but it hit back iron. Luckily, he immediately redeemed himself with a steal at the other end, after which he was immediately fouled. With Lob Angeles trailing by just 3 with 29.1 to play after CP3′s free tosses, JJ Barea clanked a runner and the Clips took over. Somehow, unbelievably, Derrick Williams made the rookie mistake of fouling Paul on a three-point attempt with 2.7 seconds left in regulation, and the veteran PG stepped to the line with an opportunity to tie the game. One, cash. Two, cash. Three…short. And L.A. fell that one point short of sending this one to overtime, instead allowing Minnesota to win game No. 20 on the season. Kevin Love can take most of the credit for building the Timberwolves’ lead—he dropped a crazy 39-point, 17-board performance in his game-high 43 minutes.  But he got help in the form of 15 points and 9 rebounds from Williams and 13 points for Darko Milicic (who started in place of an injured Nikola Pekovic). Michael Beasley only had 9 points, but they all came in the fourth quarter, as the Wolves held off the Clippers (22-14) despite 26 points and 12 boards from Blake Griffin and an 18-5-4 line out of Paul.

Nuggets 119, Kings 116 (OT)

When Tyreke Evans hit a pair of free throws to give the Kings a 5-point lead with 28 seconds left in the fourth quarter, some Nuggets fans probably headed for the exits. When they found out what happened next, those fans have probably never regretted something so much in their lives. Arron Afflalo scored the final 8 points for Denver in regulation, including a 3-pointer with 9.7 seconds left to cut the deficit to 1, and then 3 clutch free throws with 0.6 seconds left to send the game to overtime after a boneheaded foul by Marcus Thornton. In overtime, his backcourt mate, Ty Lawson, had his own clutch moment, drilling a 3-pointer to break a 116-116 tie with 4 seconds left, lifting the Nuggs to the impossible win. Afflalo finished with a career-high 32 points, Lawson had 16 points and 13 assists, and don’t look now, but Denver is now 4-0 after the All-Star break. Plus, last night marked the returns of Danilo Gallinari and Nene, each of whom played less than 20 minutes and looked sluggish, but combined for 10 points and most importantly are back out there. Thornton and Evans each had 27 for Sacramento, who over and over again looked to have this game in the bag. But Lawson, Afflalo and the energy of rookie Kenneth Faried (career-high 20 points, game-high 12 rebounds) were too much for the Kings—er, so was basic basketball IQ, too. Just an insane basketball game. Totally freaking insane.

Trail Blazers 86, Hornets 74

Ahh, the classic late-night blowout. New Orleans had been frisky lately, but Portland held the Hornets to just 10 points in the third quarter en route to earning their first win post-All-Star break. Nicolas Batum led the Blazers in scoring with 19, while Ray Felton had 11 points and 10 assists and LaMarcus Aldridge chipped in 10 points and 11 boards. Portland shot just 6-22 from the three-point line, but locked down the Hornets at the other end—Jarrett Jack and Trevor Ariza shot a combined 2-10, Chris Kaman was 4-13 and only 3 NOLA players scored in double figures, led by Marco Belinelli’s 18. The Blazers’ win snapped a 3-game skid, as they led by as many as 26. Also, word to Marcus Camby, who had 16 rebounds. Does this dude age?

Line of the Night: Kevin Love — 39 points and 17 rebounds. Minnesota is now 3-0 vs. the Clippers this year.

Moment of the Night: Ty Lawson sinks the Kings in OT.

Dunk of the Night: Blake should have been a gymnast. Dwight don’t hurt ‘em.

Funny of the Night: Just read the title.

Tonight: A Tuesday night 6-pack with some intriguing matchups on deck, including Hawks-Pacers, Rockets-Celtics and Knicks-Mavericks. Plus, the Heat and Lakers are in action. See you back here in 24.

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  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Lakeshow, name 1 person who has ever said Kobe isn’t one of the greatest to ever play. Just 1 person.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    John Doe.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Kobe fans specifically, think saying something negative about him is calling him overrated. So y’all lump every negative comment together, and then draw a completely false conclusion from it. That’s the problem.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Kobe is a ball hog.
    He is a good but not elite defender.
    He is a bad teammate. (Seriously, who would enjoy hooping with Kobe?)
    He did benefit from playing with multiple good post players.
    He does make horrible decisions way too often.
    He’s also the most skilled player possibly in League history.
    He’s one of the most intelligent.
    One of the most committed.
    One of the hardest working.
    One of the most confident.
    He is all of those things. I find that people who are Kobe fans are ultra sensitive to the bad stuff and people who dislike Kobe are ultra-sensitive to the good stuff.
    The only problems I have with Kobe at this point are his insistence on randomly dropping profanity during interviews, and his recent attempts to try to revise history about his motivations and the general landscape of the League.
    Other than that, I know exactly who dude was as a player.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    No. No. Just fans. Not Kobe fans. Fans of players in general feel like your slighting “their guy” by bringing up the negatives when you bring up anything other than putting them in a perfectly positive light. People go at Kobe more because of his style of play and brash demeanor though.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    I guess. I don’t really relate to that, I don’t see anything wrong with analyzing any player’s faults. Every single one has a myriad of them.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Exactly NBK.
    But Kobe fans are particularly strident because quite a few of them believe their guy belongs in the discussion of greatest player of all-time.
    You don’t get that with Iverson, or Duncan or Shaq fans. Even LeBron fans don’t say that yet.
    Way too many Kobe fans believe that if people would just stop hating on him, they could see he’s better than Mike.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Your blanketing way to many people AP. I am as “strident” a fan as there is of Mr. Bean, but I would not argue him as being in the top 5 let alone top spot. Kobe has his stans as many players do. But I don’t even think they believe what they are saying. They are probably saying he is the best ever to counter the people that say that he isn’t even in discussion with being one of the all time talents. Who on here is a legitimate basketball fan who thinks KB is really better than Jordan? I don’t think we have any regulars that feel that way. It’s fringe fans and trolls that pull out the “KOBES THE GREATEST EVER!!!!!!!” quotes and then bail and we don’t see them for 5 months.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    And that’s where I get annoyed as can be. He is one of the ten best players ever, but there is an astronomical difference between that conversation and the best ever conversation. He shouldn’t even be compareed to Mike in any way other then, Style of Play. Honestly, because it does a disservice to Kobe. As you can tell, his fans take that as offensive, when really it isn’t. Nobody wants to talk about a comparison that always ends up with one guy being better in just about every way, while the other is consistently worse it’s not really a discussion and it always ends with one group getting emotional and arguing with fallacy after fallacy.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Lake, I guess you haven’t been on laker forums and other sports sites not named Slamonline.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Lakeshow, there is that Maniac kid, who claims to be a basketball historian while saying Kobe is only marginally worse then Jordan. You used to love the Kobe & Michael comparisons. It’s not fringe fans and trolls that bring up those conversations, its the fringe fans and trolls who are at the extreme ends of the spectrum. There are still reasonable Kobe fans whose bias gets in the way a little too often.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Maniac is a bigger fan than most, but he isn’t just tossing out “Kobe can score 81!” and bailing. He has a very legitimate case he makes for why he thinks Kobe is top 5. I don’t agree with him, but you think he is off base by a long shot where as I think he is misplacing a couple facts to make his opinion justifiable. JTalyor I see those forums and stuff, but I honestly think most of those “people” are 11-19 year old boys and are just complete homers that don’t take anything into consideration other than their “feelings” on the matter. I mean Kobe has more of those type of fans than most, but every player has a following that thinks they are better than they actually are. I still very much so believe that Kobe and Money are “comparable” from the dictionary definition of the word. nbk, you know this convo, we have ha it a couple times before, The elephant compared to a small house argument. Completely different, but none they less comparable. Money is better in nearly every category, but Kobe isn’t that far behind on most, thus comparable.

  • http://dsjfkl.com Jukai

    You know, there is a level inbetween “good” and “elite” which Kobe falls in offensively. Kobe is a great isolation defender. He really, really is. Now, he’s thirty three and got bum knees, so yeah, he doesn’t look that great anymore. But during the majority of his career, he was great at going one-on-one defensively with peeps.
    The issues come in during help-defense situations. Jordan could play that type of D while blocking weakside shots and stealing the ball in the passing lane. Kobe can’t. And that is what separates Kobe from the “elite” defender status.
    But he really was a great defender.

  • T-Money

    haha, that’s so true. kobe goes out of his to drop f-bombs during interviews. it’s so weird.

  • http://dsjfkl.com Jukai

    And Kobe does have a case for top-5 of all time, guys. It’s not a GOOD case, but there is still a case to be made. Number 1? No, no case to be made. Number 5? In my opinion, he’s on the outside looking in.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Actually, I went down my list of top ten players and, um, Kobe might have been on the outside looking in. In no order:
    Magic
    Bird
    Jordan
    Wilt
    Kareem
    Hakeem
    Shaq
    Duncan
    Russell
    Oscar
    Then
    Isiah
    Kobe
    West
    would be on deck

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    They are comparable in a way that wastes a bunch of time. Typically, when we compare two like basketball players it’s because we are trying to decide which is superior to the other. Not to compare how inferior one is. Why don’t we compare Kobe to Jerry West? Or Larry Bird? Or Dr J? Why does he have to be compared to Michael Jordan? That’s not a good comparison. Again, unless you are strictly talking style of play.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    And I too have Kobe right around #10, personally at #11
    .Jordan
    .Russel
    .Wilt
    .KAJ
    .Magic
    .Bird
    .Shaq
    .Hakeem (personal preference)
    .Oscar
    .Duncan
    .Moses (personal preference)
    .Bryant
    So I have Kobe at #12. But completely understand those that have him over Hakeem and Moses.
    .
    I cannot logically see an argument that he is top 5. I don’t see longevity making him better then any of those guys except maybe Oscar Robertson.

  • http://dsjfkl.com Jukai

    Allen: I just can’t see any argument that Isiah is better. No argument at all. I’ll give Isiah the “he makes his teammates better” mark. Isiah is a point guard. Kobe is a shooting guard. Yahoo.
    Skill wise? I would highly, highly disagree. Championships? The last two championship teams Kobe won with was on par with that Detroit squad, but Kobe won three other championships (the last one with Shaq I believe he was pulling his weight enough to be given equal credit for that one).
    Now MVPs, accolades, MVP invites, defensive nods, playoff appearances, longevity, record book marks, impact on the league, marketability, any other tangible or untangible marker you want to compare them to, Kobe wins. No way Isiah can be considered better than Kobe. I don’t see it.
    There is an argument for the rest, of course…. but I don’t agree. My list is (in order):
    Jordan, Kareem, Johnson, Chamberlain, Russell, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, Robertson. My views on Shaq are quite low and I’m sure will stir up some feathers, but even if people say Shaq is as great as he is, he’d still go behind Kobe and probably Duncan. (next top 10, in a more rough order because I don’t think about it as much: Shaq, West, Dr. J, Isiah, Karl Malone, Havlicek, Garnett, Moses Malone, Barry, Stockton).

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Jukai, why do you feel that way about Shaq exactly?

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    How can Kobe be head of Duncan and Hakeem when those cats are better defensively, carried lesser talented teams than the ones Kobe had to championships and were dominant players from the day they stepped onto an NBA court. I don’t see how anyone can make a case for Kobe to be ahead of both guys expect for on the longevity aspect.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    From 1994 until 2006 Shaq had homecourt in the 1st round of the playoffs every single year.
    .
    That’s a pretty crazy stat considering he was on 3 teams in that stretch.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    And the best player on all of them.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I’ve said this before.
    Isiah had a championship contender when the League was loaded, and battled the best to get his ring. He built his squad from the lottery to the ring, and he adapted and changed his game along the way to make things happen. He went toe to toe with the best and won.
    I think he’s smarter than Kobe. I think he’s just as capable as a scorer and better as an assist man. Just as good on defense.
    Basically, I think he did what Kobe could not do, which was make his teammates better, and sacrifice his game to do so.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    And I should say, he made those sacrifices in his prime. Kobe sacrificed somewhat early in his career. But once he felt like his game was straight, he refused to do it anymore.
    Hence 2004.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    AllenP, it seems like you’re a big fan of both AI and Zeke. Do you think that AI would have been able to do what Zeke accomplished with those Pistons squad, which was adapt his game to complement those around him while leading them to 2 straight championships vs stiff competition?

  • Sergio

    Allenp, nbk and JTaylor21,
    I’m sorry, but there is no way in hell Hakeem, Duncan and Robertson can be above Kobe in the all-time list.
    Oscar had great stats, for sure, but has only 1 (one) ring. That’s not enough to be top 10 all time. Or else you should put cats like Malone, Stockton and KG in the conversation.
    Hakeem was a hell of a player, but has 3 less rings than Kobe, and 4 less Finals appearances. As good as he was, his dominance didn’t lead to that many championships.
    And the extra ring and 3 finals trips, to me, are enough to put KB ahead of Duncan in this discussion.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Allen Iverson and Adapt don’t go together.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I honestly don’t know.
    Which is why, at the end of the day, I have Isiah over Iverson as the best little man the game has ever seen.
    I like to believe that he would have seen the light, as a fan that’s what I like to believe. But, that’s just a hope. Dude was a scorer, and every team he’s played on needed him to score. He was never the passer Isiah was. He was never the shooter Isiah was. I always felt like dude didn’t put in enough work to improve early in his career. If he would have had Kobe’s work ethic, he wouldn’t be where he is now.

  • http://dsjfkl.com Jukai

    @JTaylor: Personally I think Hakeem is better than Kobe overall, but Kobe had a better career. Duncan had as much talent as Kobe did though, he played with David Robinson, the first championship when David Robinson still had it… the 2002-2003 championship was easily the most impressive, since D-Rob was on his way down and Manu/Parker hadn’t developed yet. In fairness, you’re talking to a Phoenix Suns fan, and in my opinion, that last championship was handed to them thanks to the mob (game 3) and David Stern’s inept rulings (game 5) which didn’t hold true the next year (rondo).

    @NBK: Well, first off, I think Kobe gets a hit for always playing with talented post players but Shaq doesn’t get the same hit. He played with Penny in Orlando (when Penny was looking like he was going to be a top-5 all-time point guard, when Penny was annihilating people), then played with Kobe (and only started winning championships in LA when Kobe began reaching his apex) and then went to play with freaking Wade in Miami (and only won a championship when Wade took over the team). Not to mention also playing with Nash, James, Allen/Pierce… Shaq has never played on a team without a superstar wing. Ever. Don’t you think that’s awfully helpful when you don’t have any range and defenses can simply close in on you?
    Going from that point, he has always played in great, great teams. That is why they have always had home court advantage. And they were also often swept. He was swept out of the playoffs five times before he won a championship. For such a tremendous force, that is quite a feat. He’s been swept more times than anyone else in the top-10. His dominance happened when all the great centers were growing old and leaving the league– sure, he was tearing it up when Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson and healthy Mourning played, but he was viewed as their contemporary. When they were all gone and Shaq was killing it, Mutombo was the only guy who could try and man-up with Shaq. Everyone always showered Duncan with compliments because he was the only person to be able to slow Shaq, but maybe it was just that the great isolation defenders were out of the league by then.
    Shaq’s dominance was great but his offense is usually overrated. Never averaged over 30 points and his legendary Finals performances came against undersized teams that couldn’t hope to contain him. Remember how good Shaq did against undersized New Jersey? Tim Duncan did even better the next year.

    @Allenp: You’re letting your bias show here. Isiah isn’t anywhere near Kobe’s equal as a scorer. Not even close. His shooting averages are actually worse than Kobes, you can even use that “he didn’t shoot as much” excuse. And he was an underrated defender but he wasn’t on Kobe’s level, man. Gah, I really think you’re wrong on this one.
    I hear that “he won in a loaded era” talk a lot, but I kind of think he won during a changing in the guard era. The Celtics were injury hobbled and Bird could barely walk due to his back, and Jordan’s team wasn’t there yet. The Magic realized immortal Kareem could no longer do it and they were in the process of changing their personnel. Isiah beat some great people and should get all the credit in the world for it, but he didn’t beat the ’86 Celtics, ’87 Magic or ’95 Bulls. He was beating lesser teams with his team that is massively underrated.
    I like him man, I put him as thirteen on my list, but I don’t think he’s on Kobe’s level. We gotta disagree on this, too far apart to convince each other.

  • http://dsjfkl.com Jukai

    *Changing of the guard
    *the Lakers realized (not the Magic)
    I really should proof-read long posts.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Jukai, I mean I understand your point of view on Shaq but I don’t agree at all. The reason he was always on great teams is because he was on them.
    .
    Orlando went from a 60 win team with Shaq to a 45 win team without him. (The Bulls went from a 57 win team with Jordan to a 55 win team without for example of how big Shaq’s impact was).
    .
    The Lakers traded Shaq and went from 56 wins to 34 (i realize how big of a change there was too the team, but for a team losing one player and gaining two all star caliber replacements to be that much worse has to say something)
    .
    The heat went from 52 wins and a title with a healthy Shaq playing 58 games, to a 44 win team with an injury riddled Shaq who played injured in 40 games.
    .
    Shaq made teams great, he opened doors for his wing players to thrive, which is why Kobe’s real best season happened in 2003 when he was 24 and not in 06 when he was a one man scoring spectacle.
    .
    And his teammates loved him. They all felt he made them better, and they all preferred to play with him over almost anyone else in their career.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Jukai, fair enought but I have to disagree with you on the “kobe had a better career” tip. The guy won back-2-back DPoy awards, back-2-back Final MVP trophies, and he’s the only player in history to rank Top-10 in nine different (career) categories. That sounds like a better career to me.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    He lost to the Celtics on the steal. Then came back and beat them.
    He lost to the Lakers on the bad ankle, then came back and smashed them.
    then won again.
    He had like a five year window where his team was a legit contender, maybe a six year window.
    Isiah was a scoring machine. He never shot more than 18 times a game because he played the point and had to run his team and get other people involved. Remember, since 2000, Kobe has only shot fewer than 20 shots per game once.
    I feel like Isiah was the best scoring option on his team, the best passing option, the team leader, the clear best player and he carried his team to championships from nothing. while his team had tons of quality players, it did not have the top end talent that the Lakers and Celtics enjoyed.
    I mean, nah, he didn’t beat those teams when they were at their apex, but he battled them and came within a hair of beating both of them aside from some bad breaks and a key mistake. He was drafted only two years ahead of Jordan, and dominated Mike and the Buils for years.
    Two years after being drafted as the second pick he had his squad in the playoffs and was having epic performances. I don’t everybody has to agree with me on Isiah, but I feel strongly about him and Hakeem.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    And him winning a title with Dwyane Wade, somehow he’s not given credit as the best player on that team…..people were talking about Kobe as the best player in the world at the time (probably rightly so) but Shaq managed to take an inferior player then Kobe to a championship. Proving too me, just how pivotal Shaq was too those title teams over Kobe or Dwyane or any other player that was a great individual talent. Shaq made whole teams great. Kobe and Wade are great individuals that depend on great teammates for success.
    .
    I mean sh*t, the Magic jumped 20 wins in Shaq’s rookie year, and they had basically the same team. Then they added Penny who as a rookie put up 16 7 5 (far from elite numbers) and managed to add 8 more wins. Then they added Horace Grant and Penny became an All-Star and the Magic were the top team in the conference.
    .
    All of this and we haven’t talked about how Shaq changed the whole game on BOTH ends of the court. Something you can never say many of the other guys in *most* top 10′s ever did.

  • http://dsjfkl.com Jukai

    A “healthy” Shaq playing 58 games? Eesh… another issue with Shaq right there.
    Look, I know that I have a bit of a minority opinion on Shaq, but hey, I watched him and I formed these opinions.
    Plus, I’m not exactly going to agree that 2003 was Kobe’s best year. His rebounding numbers spiked but not sure why you’re going to credit Shaq for that. His percentages were the same as his 35ppg explosion and he had more assists the year prior when Shaq wasn’t there. It was just a year of Kobe forcing himself to be more of the man. Shaq had little to do with it. It hurt the team, actually.

  • http://dsjfkl.com Jukai

    Oops, lots of new posts…
    @JTaylor: Kobe has more championships, more all-star births, and just as many MVPs and Finals MVPs. I love Hakeem and on a “best” list I’d put him over Kobe, but on a “greatest” list where you gotta take into consideration championships and accolades, I gotta put Kobe above Hakeem. Just how I look at things.

    @Allen: That Celtics team was hobbling, the fact that Isiah lost to them in my opinion is actually a negative. His most impressive feat was beating the Magic, but remember, the year afterwards, the Magic didn’t even make the finals. These were all still fantastic teams, but they weren’t as dominant as they were, ya know?
    I know Isiah only took 18 shots a game, and his passing was fantastic, but he still shot worse than Kobe. Would Isiah taking 25 shots a game increase his percentages? Usually for wings, it works the other way. Isiah had lots of legendary performances, he’s fantastic, I just don’t see him as an overall better player than Kobe. Those Detroit teams were stacked.
    We all have opinions, I just don’t see it. I agree with everything you say about Hakeem though.
    ….
    @NBK: Shaq, in my mind, is the 11th greatest player of all time. Of course, he’s gonna get you wins!!!
    What’s up with this defensive talk though? I know all-defensive teams aren’t a great indicator of things (as we established), but he only got the second team nod three times. He blocked a LOT of shots, and lots of wings were afraid to take it in, but he wasn’t exactly an imposing post defender and he sure as hell wasn’t switching on anybody. You know?

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Wilt
    Jordan
    Kareem
    Russell
    Magic
    Bird
    Robertson
    Olajuwon
    Duncan
    Kobe
    West
    Shaq
    Isiah
    Moses
    Baylor

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Anyone have Shaq not in their top 10? lol.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    First of all: I’m not trying to change your opinion. I know you well (as a commenter) and know that you watched the games and formed your opinion rationally. Just like discussing this stuff with you, no emotion involved, best way to go about it.
    .
    2003 is Kobe’s best year (imo) because that was his best all around season. He scored at one of his highest, most efficient clips. And that was one of the few years he had big time defensive responsibility while still putting up big time offensive numbers. And he was killer in the playoffs. I just think that’s the year he kind of put it all together, it’s just too bad he realized he had a case as the best player in the league that same year.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Jukai, you really need me to tell you why he didn’t get much defensive recognition? He played Center first of all, so there are only 2 all defensive spots for that position ever year, (4 for the other ones, yearly), he came into the league WITH Alonzo Mourning and right after Dikembe Mutombo, not too mention that guy, Hakeem was in the league. Then a the end of Shaq’s prime there was that one guy, Ben Wallace – Oh and also, lets not forget, Theo Ratliff had a run as a very dominant defensive Center.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    There’s that Marcus Camby dude too. Honestly, there were still many defensive stand outs at Center in the NBA after that 90′s group, just not good offensive ones.

  • http://dsjfkl.com Jukai

    NBK: Good points on the defensive nods. He was a great anchor. But he did have his defensive deficiencies.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    KAJ
    MJ
    Wilt
    Hakeem
    Magic
    Oscar
    TD
    Bird
    Russell
    Shaq
    Isiah
    Kobe
    West
    Teddy, I do.
    Jukai, if that’s the case why do you have Wilt ahead of Russell despite Russell winning 9 more rings and 1 more RS MVP trophy.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    Oh definitely he had issues on that end, but he still changed entire games, that should not be overlooked.

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    JTaylor, (don’t mind if you don’t answer) but what makes you put KAJ at #1? A lot of my pops friends and uncles (guys in their 40′s and 50′s) have KAJ as the GOAT too, they always just say, you have to have seen Jabar and felt his impact to understand.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Damn…where do I start? The guy won RS MVP trophies 19yrs apart and Final MVP trophies 15yrs apart, so that means the guy was a dominant force for the major parts of 2 different eras (70s/80s). Ranks 1st in career offensive win shares and 2nd in defensive win shares (ultimate two-way player). Also, he possessed the most unstoppable weapon (hook shot) in the history of sports. A lot of cats have come close to matching the effectiveness of MJ’s fadeaway (see Kobe) but no one has come remotely close to perfecting Kareem’s hook shot.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Honestly Taylor… Great points. Still going with Money lol.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Makes sense too me. Why don’t you value Kobe higher considering how highly you value longevity? Is it his lack of being a dominant two-way guy? Or more about his inability to make his teammates better?

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    I doubt we will ever see anyone in the near future use the hook shot with the same deadly accuracy as Kareem because it’s such a diffcult shot to master and it isn’t seen as “flasy” by today’s standards.

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