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Thursday, July 26th, 2012 at 11:00 am  |  182 responses

Tim Duncan Took a Paycut to Lower the San Antonio Spurs’ Tax Bill


Tim Duncan, a “Spur for life”, showed some true loyalty to the franchise by agreeing to a paycut on his new 3-year deal. It will save San Antonio quite a bit of money in the tax department. The Express-News has the details: “By accepting an $11.5 million cut from the $21.15 million salary he earned last season, Duncan enabled the club to re-sign its most coveted free-agent players, add 2009 draftee Nando De Colo and still drop below the NBA’s projected luxury-tax threshold for next season. According to contract figures that have been officially released to all NBA teams, Duncan will be paid $9.64 million in the first season of the three-year deal he signed July 11. After being the third-highest paid player in the league last season, behind only Lakers star Kobe Bryant ($25.24 million) and Boston’s Kevin Garnett ($21.25 million), Duncan next season will be the fourth-highest paid Spur. All player salaries last season were pro-rated to account for the 66-game post-lockout season. Veteran guard Manu Ginobili, at $14.1 million, will be San Antonio’s highest-paid player next season, followed by All-NBA point guard Tony Parker ($12.5 million), veteran guard-forward Stephen Jackson ($10.06 million) and Duncan. A two-time NBA Most Valuable Player, the 36-year-old Duncan will see his salary rise to $10.36 million for the 2013-14 season. The team captain is guaranteed $10 million for the 2014-15 season, but he has an opt-out clause. […] The five recent signings give the Spurs 14 players with guaranteed contracts for next season, at a total of $69.13 million. That is safely beneath the projected luxury-tax threshold, unchanged from last season’s $70.307 million. The Spurs are reported to have exceeded last season’s tax threshold by $2.5 million.”

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  • LA Huey

    I thought Stephen Jackson wasn’t going to be back.

  • Loyola

    Kobe must do the same. Everybody likes Duncan.

  • ALD

    dwight howard should do this and join the nets… It might help his image and get the Nets a championship.

  • http://www.slamonline.com spit hot fiyah

    ^did he have an option in his contract?

  • http://www.slamonline.com spit hot fiyah

    jackson that is

  • pposse

    tim duncan has been great, but imo he didnt have as many great seasons as other PF’s in the past have had. He did come away with the hardware tho 4 times. All that being said, he should be taking a pay cut! He plays 1 out of 2 regular season games. No need to pay a player if he is not going to play, it wouldn’t make sense!

  • bike

    Saint Tim.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    pposse, it’s too early in the morning for crazy talk.
    TD’s first 11+ seasons are one of the greatest runs for a player in NBA history. He’s also the only player in League history to be selected to All-NBA and All-Defensive Teams 13 straight times to start his career.
    If that isn’t consistently great, I don’t know what is.

  • http://www.stillonthebench.blogspot.com TR

    cosign JTAYLOR21

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woWqSmichOo RunNGun

    cosign JTAYLOR21 too

  • Trout

    We are witnessing either the last honourable sportsman …. or the biggest sucker in the history of contact negotiations. I’m going with honourable dude …

  • pposse

    dont get me wrong i think he is an outstanding ball player, best power forward. But i mean still thats really all he had as far as great seasons go..11. Most players in everyone’s all time top 10 has around 13 great seasons. I dont think he had 13 dominant seasons, but maybe.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woWqSmichOo RunNGun

    @pposse Tim Duncan has championship rings to go with go with all the accolades. Boxed.

  • pposse

    im swaying towards honorable.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Chinese Oppenheimer

    I thought pop said they weren’t keeping stack jack. I hope they do, he’s grimey as hell, and proved to be the best role player.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woWqSmichOo RunNGun

    I would also say honorable. A lot of people may say he’s a tool but that’s because he plays for a small market team. Were he in LA or NY, this wouldn’t be questioned. Sorry biased-media, you can’t have your cake and eat too.

  • LA Huey

    Not sure of pposse is too young to know better or just trolling

  • pposse

    first of all you shouldn’t be getting 21.5 million dollars a year if your going to play only 2 out of every 3 games. Who cares what you did in the past, this is a business, its all about ‘what have you done for me lately, and what will you do for me now.’

  • 23

    forget the “best pf ever” debate. duncan has already slammed the door, on that arguement, shut. when we talk about duncan, it should be his place in history amongst the ALL TIME GREATS, of any position. seriously what more do people want from this guy? multiple finals mvps, multiple regular season mvps, dpoy, i mean come on. i dont even need to go on…

  • 23

    that being said, TD is still THE MOST IMPORTANT factor when it comes to winning another ring. the day duncan retires, SA will automatically no longer be a championship contender. until they draft another phenom.

  • http://thahiphopcorner.com Kevin

    @pposse need to stop with this blantant, obvious trolling. Stop it five

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Cough**
    Cough**
    Kobe
    Cough**
    Cough**

  • pposse

    11 Mill is still 11 Mill (three times more than the average person makes their entire life). If Duncan was a FA this offseason would any other team be willing to give him 21 Mill to play next year?

  • LA Huey

    ^Have you seen any of the contracts they’ve been handing out to bigs who have proven very little to nothing in their careers?

  • pposse

    bc they are PROJECTING for the future! smh this is a BUSINESS. If I am your employer and you have a resume like Duncans. I will say “Hey LA Huey, thats fantastic i have a lot of respect for the work you have done. Where do you see our team NEXT year? How are those knees and feet holding up?”

  • http://n/a Saul

    Tim Duncan on any team next year, would automatically have them contending. San Antonio is a place that honorable players & people want to be. So, him taking a pay cut was so that he could stay here in San Antonio. The man is starting on my greatest 5 players of all time, along with Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Bird

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Tim should get all the money he needs, because SA will kick him to the curve in two years. Tim Duncan always gets too much credit. Karl Malone is the best Power Forward of All Time and Tim is a tool.

  • pposse

    23 thats is what i am saying..when ranking TD amongst the greats of all time, he deserves to be in the top 10..but statistically speaking he did not put up the numbers for as long a time as most peoples top 10 would dictate. His career averages are solid,but thats more so cause of the monster numbers he had in the first 8 years of his career. He’s got the hardware and he a winner, ill give it up to him, but its hard for me to place him any better than #9 all time.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Damn….Kobe fans are an insecure/delusional bunch.

  • Antagonist

    @pposse: Tim Duncan´s most important numbers are the numbers of championships he carried the Spurs to. Those four compare favourably to just about any guy in the NBA, and just look up quotes from teammates, coaches and owners. They love the man, and their opinion matters. Yours, and mine, don´t. Stop embarrasing yourself, and stop talking shite.

  • LA Huey

    I think Duncan’s contract is fair. But if you don’t think someone would be willing to pay him more than that even at this point in his career, you give NBA GMs too much credit.
    And if you’re ranking Karl Malone over Tim Duncan, it’s because you don’t value defense all that much or don’t understand what it takes to play great defense.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Duncans defense has always been overrated, has he ever led the league in Blocks or Rebounds. Tim has only had three seasons with 3 or more blocks a game and has had only 4 seasons over 14 or more rebounds a game. Time has been given the nod for defensive team, because of team’s success and the way the team plays defense. Karl Malone averages career wise only 2 less rebounds a game, 1.4 less blocks a game career wise and averages 5 more points a game than Duncan. I take Karl Malone, people are so prisoners of the moment about Karl. Karl was a beast, he just had to go against better teams in that NBA. This NBA those Jazz teams have 3 or 4 rings.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Timmy or Garnett is #1 as I see it. Don’t really care about which one it is. Green apples and red apples as far as i’m concerned. Malone is 3rd. Chuck is 4th.

  • http://nba.com GP23

    Malone was great, but Duncan was greater. Karl was 0-3 in the Finals, while Tim is a 4x champ and played better D.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    I take Bob Pettit, Kevin McHale and Chuck over Garnett anyday. Don’t be prisoners of the moment. Garnett choked for alot of years in Minny. Karl is number 1, Duncan is 2 and rest is in a bunch up.

  • http://thahiphopcorner.com Kevin

    No way Karl “I miss free throws in the Finals” Malone should be ahead of Tim Duncan

  • LA Huey

    In 2011-2012 JaVale McGee averaged 2.16 bpg, while DPotY Tyson Chandler and KG posted 1.44 and 1.02. I know there’s no stat to measure how well one rotates, helps, and hedges on defense, plays the P&R, alters shots, etc. But if actually watching the games is a pretty useful in trying to make sense of a player’s defensive prowess.

  • pposse

    Hey gp23 Malone was more like 0-2 in the finals..that last one don’t count. He was over there on the Lakers bench in game 5 when they lost with an all blue fit on…looking like the swollest piston cheerleader ever.

  • bigA

    cosign la huey
    Great defense doesnt need tons of blocks. And alot of guys who get many steals often blow defense assignments.

  • LA Huey

    Garnett never had help in Minny. The one year he did (Cassell and Sprewell) he was MVP and took them to WCF.

  • Bt

    @the seed – because Malone didn’t choke at all??? Bricking free throws, turnovers in the clutch. Blame Jordan all you Want but what was Utah’s excuse in 90-96? 99? Tim Duncan always delivered, ironically the mailman (and Stockton), not so much

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    The good news is pposse will be back to middle school soon. Watch.
    Tim Duncan: 12 great seasons
    Larry Bird: 12 great seasons
    Magic Johnson: 11 great seasons
    Kevin Garnett: 10 great seasons
    Bill Russell: 12 great seasons
    Michael Jordan: 12 great seasons
    Oscar Robertson: 11 great seasons
    Kobe Bryant: 12 (maybe) great seasons
    Patrick Ewing: 13 great seasons
    David Robinson: 9 great seasons
    So sit down kiddo, you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

  • http://thahiphopcorner.com Kevin

    Didnt Minnesota hurt themselves in trying to put help around KG by giving him that huge $126 million deal and f**king up that whole Joe Smith situation?

  • pposse

    young Caboose, so i guess in 5 of those seasons, you consider great play when he didn’t average 20 ppg? Sorry I dont.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    HEY OPPENHEIMER EITHER U DO A CHINESE ACCENT OR STFU thank you.

  • http://www.fullc0urtpress.com KHoliday

    Is it really a paycut when you werent under contract anymore? Does anyone else feel like this was reaching for a feel good Tim Duncan story? Like I understand the premise of him taking less money than he made last year, but still, is that really considered a paycut?

  • http://thahiphopcorner.com Kevin

    Uh yeah if you take less money then your previous salary that’s a paycut. He took a paycut to stay in SA

  • http://slamonline BossTerry

    Rodman has rings,dpoy awards, and green hair… Not saying hes anywhere near Duncan/Malone/Barkley, but maybe in the top 10 for his position…

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Ibaka led the L in blocks by a large margin.
    Love led the L in rebs by a nice margin.
    Those cats must be better defensive players than TD because he never led the L in either category.
    Oh….lawd

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Lake, make a case for KG at the #1 spot over TD because I don’t see it.
    Don’t get me wrong, Prime KG was a rare beast during his Sota days but Prime TD was better at every aspect of the game expect for rebounding and playmaking.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    pposse, so Bill Russell never had a great season then? You’re one of the worst kinds of debaters, one who makes bold claims, gets proven wrong, and then has to redefine his arbitrary boundaries, which again make no sense. If you wanna have a stupid opinion, that’s fine, just don’t vehemently defend it with inaccurate information.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    And I gotta cosign JT on TD as the GPFOAT. You also have to factor in how stupendous he is/was at helping other cats get better. There’s a reason(s) that the Spurs don’t draft busts, and at least one factor in that is Duncan.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Chinese Oppenheimer

    Oh me so sorry redd. Many aporogies to you and famiry of you. No dishonor. Me rikey tim duncans rery much. He is superstar A number 1.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Best Power Forwards:
    1. Duncan
    2. Malone
    3. Garnett
    4. Barkley
    5. Petit
    6. Hayes
    7. Nowitzki
    8. McHale
    9. Webber
    10. Rodman

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Taylor, It’s more that he may have been more Beast at his absolute peak(KG that is). As far as who has been the better NBA player: Duncan. Hands down Duncan. I think KG is a more versatile defender, but not a better defender.
    I have Duncan over Garnett at everyhting except peak ability. I think Garnett was a better player(by a hair) at both men’s absolute peak.
    Caboose: Take it easy on the elementary students.
    Chinese O.: Am I allowed to laugh at that? It was too un-politically correct for me to not giggle a little.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/10/nfl-players-advice-to-lebron-james-stick-to-basketball/ shutup

    Caboose and Jtaylor are my hero’s on this post. When I see bs like ppose is posting it makes me sick. Duncan was the anchor on what was widely considered the best defense in the nba for over a decade. The Spurs have the highest winning % in the NBA since Duncan was drafted. Say what you want this is a classy move by Duncan, putting the teams future over his own interest at this point in his career. The Spurs still had the best overall record in the NBA last year and despite getting outplayed by OKC, Duncan put in some major work against the Clippers.

  • SylvioMac

    Pfft. Brian Scalabrine is obviously the greatest player to ever step foot on a court. WHITE MAMBA.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/10/nfl-players-advice-to-lebron-james-stick-to-basketball/ shutup

    @caboose what no James worthy? and I have McHale higher like @5 knock webber off put Worthy there.

  • pposse

    bill russell made up for that by averaging over 20 rebs per game and 11 ships right? You already know winning matters more; i already been said that Dunc the GOAT PF, what else do you want to hear? Its not my fault that he is a victim of his era (post GOAT Era = 1999-2004). imo this time had the least amount of talent. Only the Spurs and Lakers were winning and no other team even came close to them until the flukish Pistons did. and you know what, no one cared about that time period either, no one watched basketball and they changed the goddamn rules to make scoring easier so people would watch again (all of that is proven too). Once Wade, LBJ and co. came into the league there was a huge influx of talent and more people paying attention again.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Lake, to each it’s own. During the mid-2000s, KG was by far my favorite player. So I see where you’re coming from even though I disagree.
    CB34 in my opinion is one of the most underrated players of all-time. The man is the definition of a “walking double-double”. The fact that he avg. 10+ rpg for 15 straight seasons has to be one of the greatest feats in NBA history.
    If not for MJ and the Bulls, PHX wins that 93 Championship and CB easily moves ahead of KG/Malone as the 2nd greatest PF.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    I’ll Ride with KG…….if he had the talent, he would have four rings too.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Seriously, PPosse might be worst than The Seed when it comes to ridiculous comments.
    Where the hell do you come up with these numbers from?

  • V

    TD has no D? he has the most blocks in post season history

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    ^I wrote this before I actually read The Seed’s comment on this thread.
    I stand corrected.
    They are equally terrible.

  • pposse

    @shutup haha yah this is a classy move…lol. Peep game, Duncan might have looked like the bad guy and got a whole team disassembled if he kept with that 21 million that was owed to him. However, he takes a pay cut by 11 million dollars. So he is going to make 10 this year, and 10 in the next two years as well. So thats like 30 million dollars guaranteed in his pocket. Or he gets traded this summer, realizes his market value at its highest right now is 15 million and will sign on some other team with people he doesnt like or care for and has to play ball. I give him 2 years of being some kind of ‘nba journey man’ before he calls it quits. So he retires wit 30 million either way (give or take). This way he looks like the ultimate good guy (which he is), but dont get it twisted like Duncan is some sort of sucker or he is not being financially advised properly. He maybe loses 5 million total from career earnings with this move. But he got little riders all over slam for it. It must be reall foggy where yall from.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Chuck and Garnett are my favorite PF’s of all time Taylor. I agree on your last thought about the 93 Suns, and Chuck’s place in history if he did win the chip.
    If Barkley played great defense instead of average to good I’d have him definitely above Karl, and tied with KG as the 2nd best. With only Timmy standing above them.
    I actually would put Barkley above Malone now. My bad.
    1.TD
    2.KG
    3.Barkley
    4.Mailman

  • pposse

    AllenP u still mad bro that your midget pg is supposedly the ‘best in the league’ and you can’t convince the whole world that this is an accurate statement? I been said Duncan is number 8 all time. What more do u fruitcakes want to hear?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Barkley didn’t play defense. All the other great things he did, he didn’t work at defense, wasn’t about staying in shape, and, after he left Philly, actually declined although he had more career success. He squandered a chance to be the fresh blood for an aging Doc, Malone and Toney because of his wild ways. Then went to PHoenix and had some mild success.
    I honestly feel like Malone did more with less and was more of a serious professional. Barkley had better innate talent, but he didn’t maximize it.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Why would I be mad that you’re an idiot?
    That’s a bad look for you, not me. Convincing idiots is God’s work, not mine.

  • pposse

    and u kno what..no GM is paying Tim Duncan 15 mill for a year or two of service at this age..NONE period, he only gets that much (actually 21 mil) if chose not to renegotiate his current deal from years ago.

  • http://www.slamononline.com Redd

    Lmao @ Oppenheimer man I always look forward to your posts. Hopefully nobody is offended by it, I find it refreshing to read in a thread full of arguing cats. You’re one of my favorite, thought provoking posters.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    That Phoenix team had some of the best talent in the West.
    And they didn’t just lose to Jordan. They allowed jordan to average like 42 points a game! Have you ever watched that series. Jordan was living in the lane like it was a plaid suit. And Barkley was staying attached to freaking HORACE GRANT!
    Barkeley reminds me a lot of Iverson, one of my two favorite players of all time. They both had crazy, CRAZY talent. They could have been in the best of all time, period, conversations. But neither wanted to put in the work after they left the court, and they only wanted to put in the work in certain areas on the court. As great as they were and as hard as they played, in some ways they cheated themselves and the game.

  • pposse

    AllenP i see u like to use logical fallacies in your arguments. Hasty Generalizations at its finest. thats cool tho, i’m not the one that needs any convincing from God. Don’t think too much about me and your flawed way just cause your some superstar slam poster boy fam, you only as good as the company you keep son.

  • Sérgio

    I think Malone was better than Chuck. He had INSANE scoring numbers – in fact, the only thing that kept him from being the leading scorer was a certain guy in Chicago.
    He was a worse rebounder than Chuck, but much better on D. He didn’t block many shots, but he played awesome man on man D, and could steal the ball like very few big-man in NBA history.
    Also, he was an excellent passer.

  • LA Huey

    How did anyone in Chicago stop Mailman from passing KAJ on the scoring list?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    PPosse
    I post on the site. You post on the site. Why am I a superstar?
    Point to a logical fallacy buddy? Man your first argument was the Duncan wasn’t great because he didn’t have enough great seasons but you quickly backtracked off that argument when JTaylor pointed out his first 11 seasons were an incredible run of dominance seldom seen in NBA history.
    You’re upset that Duncan is being lauded for giving up money when he really didn’t sacrifice that much, that’s fine. That’s actually a valid point, but the HORRIBLE way you made the argument made you look like a mental midget.
    Your arguments suck so I’m going to go ahead and believe your general thinking sucks. No one cares who posts here the most often, it’s just about having an intelligent basketball conversation and being entertained.
    You are contributing neither intelligence or entertainment. Do better.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    I can’t put Worthy higher than Webber, I’m sorry. I’m from Sacto so I saw Webber go toe to toe with those dominant Lakers squads. He was matching Shaq in those playoffs and to me, he’s the greatest passing PF of all time, even more so than KG. Worthy was always overrated to me, but idk, just opinion.

  • pposse

    I never said that Duncan wasnt great, where did i say that? now your operating on complete assumptions again (hasty generalizations again). I have a valid point but i made the point in a way that YOU or YOUR cronies or anyone here can’t interprit. But you did interpret it just fine because u just said i made a valid point. And the topper, my argument sucks..was that because i made a valid point too? If i am not contributing anything thats cool, but u respond, in fact the last thread i was on there were 235 responses. Since u love stats so much, and thats the basis of all your points, go compute who gets their fair share of responses. That unconventional way of thinking you might be referring to is called the truth, haha but thats just opinion.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    So you expect PHX and Barkely to slow down MJ when no one (not even the Bad Boys) had a chance in hell at stopping that monster.
    Bird and Magic weren’t all-world defenders in their own right but everyone overlooks that because they won a combined 8 championships.
    Those PHX’s teams were built around offense, so Chuck didn’t have the luxury to be surrounded by great defensive teammates like Bird (DJ/McHale/Parrish) and Magic (Coop/BScott/Kareem/at times Rambis) had.

  • Sérgio

    LA Huey, I meant that Malone was 2nd in PPG in a lot of seasons, but he was never the scoring leader, because, well, Jordan has 10 scoring titles.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/10/nfl-players-advice-to-lebron-james-stick-to-basketball/ shutup

    James Worthy has more championships and even a finals MVP, the only detractor from the greatest PF debate is some considered him a sf. He was a beast and IMO had a better career than Webber, also had better teams then Webber ever had, but he always seemed to produce more the bigger the stage, hence the moniker “big game, James” @ppose lmao your math is the only thing foggy here. he could have forced the Spurs hand by dangling trade rumors and he would have got every dollar of that 15mil you were talking about, but with dignity and pride in his organization, “spades face up-all trust” he told them he was going to retire a Spur, by him taking less they had the money to keep Jackson and build more. Clearly you don’t understand small market politics, Spurs fans and the community would most likely boycott if Duncan was traded especially after he made it clear that his desire was to retire a Spur.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Worthy is overrated. His entire claim to alleged greatness is based off that Gm 7 (albeit a great one) performance against the Pistons.
    Frazier’s Gm 7 performance in the 1970 Finals vs LA despite being superior doesn’t get the same amount of love as Worthy’s.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Tim Duncan is not the greatest Power Forward of all time, its sad when people are prisoners of the moment. I can make a case, TP, Ginobli was more important to them winning rings than Tim in the clutch, check stats, since that’s what yall do. When yall do search do NBA Finals, Tim won 4 rings and 1 does not count in shorten season. Tim is all right, but he never put the Spurs on his back and took them to the promise land. His Help was it. I can make a case for Ginobli getting one of Tim’s Finals MVP. Karl Malone was better and played with less talent in his career than Tim. Karl had Stockton and pieces. Tim has had TP, the clutches point guard in NBA, Ginobli-who will be in the Hall of Fame, David Robinson-One of the top Centers of All Time. TP was more important to them winnning the last 2 rings that anything. Karl lost to MJ twice and one time should have won if he had more help. I take Karl to start my franchise over Tim, and Karl longevity KILLS Tim. Tim career is basically over, and its funny how Tim could never win 2 years in a row NBA Finals, if he was SOOOOOOO GOOOOOOD.

  • http://thahiphopcorner.com Kevin

    ppose just wants attention

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    It’s funny how Kobe could never win without having an absolute dominant big man, isn’t it Seed? There’s a reason nobody takes you seriously on this thread.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    JTaylor
    I’m saying, if you win a championship your flaws get excused. That’s how basketball works.
    Barkley should have played better defense. And been in better shape. And stayed away from the off the court crap.
    Malone was a better scorer, and Sergio explained why. Barkley was more of a freak, and his game was more palatable, but Malone maxed out on his talent while Barkley didn’t.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Seed,you are being ridiculous. Duncan was an elite defender, rebounder and scorer. He is the total package at his position along with being a winner and no other power forward has ever come close.
    Name one who did everything Duncan did on an elite level. Not even KG can make that claim.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/10/nfl-players-advice-to-lebron-james-stick-to-basketball/ shutup

    Its funny how Malone could never win one year in a row despite having a top 5 pg of all-time(arguably). @Seed you are the worst. Is TP better than Zeke? Tell me again how the 92 team without Zeke couldn’t beat Argentina in this years Olympics by 30? When Spain beat them by 20. lmao Your a joke on a joke, f%ckin clown shoes.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    @Caboose
    Not talking about Kobe, Tim Duncan could not produce two years in a row, his career is vastly overrated. If watched Karl played, you would never state Tim is a better player than Karl. You think I care about people taking me seriously, most of the dudes up here contradict themselves so much. One thread they something, then two days later they on something else. I can come out and speak analytical if I want to, but its no point with cats like. Also if Tim has no rings, which player would you take, most Karl. I still take Karl and he has no rings. Just because a person has rings, does not make them a better player. I would take Dan Marino over plenty of Super Bowl quarterback winners. Dan just never had than team, like Karl did. Stockton was great, but he was no Zeke.

  • http://www.xvideos.com nbk troll

    TIM Duncan is the best PF EVER… Anybody who says different is either a idiot or a Toronto raptors fan

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    @shutup
    I stated Zeke on 1992 Dream Team kills this squad, with stockton this years Dream Team gets 2 wins. Understand cat.
    @Allenp
    Duncan is not a defensive stopper, cut that crap out. I have watched the spurs for years. He is vastly overrated, you all base that on his defensive team showings, but thats crap. His teams were good, so he was put up there. Really go back and watch him against the Lakers and all of his NBA Finals appearances, NOBODY TALKED ABOUT HIS DEFENSE.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgvwfvTcNl0 danpowers

    many great players (ewing, miller, barkley, stockalone, wilkins) just had the bad luck to be in their primes while god came down to earth to play basketball, doesnt make them bad players. but id also take duncan over malone. his impact on the game was impresive on both ends of the floor. malone tended to come up short in great games while duncan had the tendency to deliver. plus his defensive play was much better than malone’s. plus, duncan was allways capable of putting up the same offensive numbers like malone, the system he played in was just designed differently.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/10/nfl-players-advice-to-lebron-james-stick-to-basketball/ shutup

    @caboose James Worthy playoff stats vs Chris Webber ppg/trpg/apg WORTHY-21.1/5.2/3.2 WEBBER-18.7/8.7/3.6. Just for kicks so everyone can compare TD playoff avg= 22.3/12.1/3.4

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgvwfvTcNl0 danpowers

    @The Seed: sorry man but your understanding of the game doesnt seem to… exist

  • http://slamonline.com Chubachuchi

    @pposse did you just predict that Tim Duncan, the greatest PF/Spur, will end up becoming a journeyman? LOL

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Shutup, keep in mind those playoff stats are skewed because of Webber’s early and later years, kind of like KG’s. Webber’s playoff averages with the Kings were more like 24/10/4. And those 5.2 rebounds of Worthy are frighteningly low.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    So now rings doesn’t make you a better player when Kobe fans entire argument as to why LeBron is not better than Kobe is that he doesn’t have a ring or as of today, he doesn’t have 5 rings.
    Stop it, just come out and say that you hate TD’s guts because quite a few people consider him to be the best player since MJ therefore making him better than one Kobe Bryant.

  • LA Huey

    Sergio, I see you. That’s why I put more weight into the averages than the title.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    LOL @ JTaylor.
    So true. I do not agree that TD is better than KB, but that is exactly why people try to detract from him.
    Those darned Kobe fans!

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgvwfvTcNl0 danpowers

    the most talented pfs of all time were larry johnson, webber, tim duncan, barkley, garnett, malone, nowitzki, kemp and coleman (in this order). just injuries (johnson, webber) or bad brains (kemp, coleman) prevented some from showing their whole potential and becoming one of the games best players of all time. so it came down to duncan, kg, malone, barkley n maybe nowitzki to showcase their whole potential throughout their whole carreers due to some luck (good teams+health) and good behaviour (work ethic, no career threatening escapades). i wonder what barkley wouldve achieved if jordan wouldve played in another decade or lj if his back wouldnt have plagued him. we will never find out. but talent wise to me the power forward position is the most exciting in nba history.

  • EuropeanBaller

    John Amaechi
    he s gotta be one of the all time greats.after playing 28games with the cavs he opted for less money so he could play for a winning team (panathinaikos athens) and give them the financial flexibility to sign other high profile fas (cant remember their names)…and athens kicked out dominique wilkins so they could sign john.
    hmmm…okay…cant think of more bs to write, but cant be worse than the pposse-stuff :D

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/10/nfl-players-advice-to-lebron-james-stick-to-basketball/ shutup

    @caboose rebounding numbers low because of KAJ and Magic. You would have to have just watched Worthy to understand. He was before my time but I made it a point to study his game, him and McHale’s contribution to the Bird/Magic rivalry sometimes get overlooked.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgvwfvTcNl0 danpowers

    it doesnt make any sense to compare a power forward with a shooting guard. the positions require different skill sets and tasks on the court so where is the point? both players made the most of what their talent and bodies allowed them to do. both did that extremely successful and both of them used to be (duncan) or are (kobe) the best players on their respective position throughout most of their carreers. so you cant say that kb or td is better or worse, it could just be argued which position is more important in basketball. but this also wouldnt make any sense

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/10/nfl-players-advice-to-lebron-james-stick-to-basketball/ shutup

    @Dan, I think the Center position historically has been more exciting. Wilt, Russell, Moses Malone, Ewing, Olajuwan, Robinson, Shaq, Mourning, and Dikembe to name a few. Even someone like Sam Perkins brought flair to the game.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Sure “nobody talked about Duncan’s defense” in the Finals after he avg. 5.3 blocks a game (most since the merger) during the 03 Finals and fell 2 blocks shy of a quadruple-double in the clinching Game 6.
    Howard sends two shots to the stands and everyone loses their collective minds but TD blocks 5+ during a Final series and he’s considered overrated?
    Lord help us all.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Stop killin ‘em Taylor. Common. You being cruel at this point hahahaa :)

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk Troll

    ^^Sam Perkins is the first and only player to wear a dew-rag during a game….

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/10/nfl-players-advice-to-lebron-james-stick-to-basketball/ shutup

    cant nobody f%ck wit big smoove

  • Heals

    TD and KG doing “team first” for over a decade in their own ways…

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    KG wasn’t exactly “team first” on the Wolves…

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgvwfvTcNl0 danpowers

    i wont touch perkins here, tht guy is holy.

    sure, the center position is also a very exciting position and was my only joy for most of the 90s coz im a knicks fan. but to me that pf position is at leats more interesting because of the different player types. tweeners like johnson, (mason), barkley or unseld were able to dominate players much taller than them down low where normally height is considered the most valuable good of a player. the combo skill sets of power, passing, slashing, outside shooting like nowitzki, garnett, coleman or webber let the position look extremely versatile and unique to me. the center position maybe represents more greats of the game but doesnt contain that diversity in my opinion.

  • LA Huey

    Big Smooth and his ridiculously slow release. I missed that the pivot tandem he and Smits formed.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Chinese Oppenheimer

    Jordan, duncan, olajuwon, the tree best prayers of arr time.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgvwfvTcNl0 danpowers

    @chinese oppenheimer: what about bird and magic?

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/10/nfl-players-advice-to-lebron-james-stick-to-basketball/ shutup

    @dan I can respect that, but let me counterpoint. Ewing great defensive player in college evolved into one of the best jumpshooting centers of all time. Olajuwan’s footwork was off the charts. Dwights athleticism is amazing. Shaq’s raw power, Wilts unparalleled scoring ability. KAJ sky-hook, Dikembe and Mournings defensive abilities. Dudes at 7’6″ with better jumpshots than the avg NBA player- Smits and Yao. Undersized centers making a name for themselves, Ben Wallace, Okafur and Horford. Look at Rasheed Wallace for versatility at the center position. Noah’s hustle, Zach Randolphs left hand.all very different aspects of the game. all of them brought something different to the party.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/10/nfl-players-advice-to-lebron-james-stick-to-basketball/ shutup

    The trinity has to be Kareem, Wilt and Jordan.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgvwfvTcNl0 danpowers

    @shutup: also a good point. but randolph, r. wallace and horford are naturally power forwards while randolph and r. wallace play / played pf for most of the time. sure there are many different styles of play, its just a position where youre undersized at 6’9” while guys like barkley or johnson also went against 7 footers at times below a height of 6’7” and kicked a**s thats whats so fascinating to me. but i think its just a matter of taste what fascinates you more

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Shutup, I guess it’s just taste with Worthy v Webber. I’m curious to hear others here chime in.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/10/nfl-players-advice-to-lebron-james-stick-to-basketball/ shutup

    AS for undersized pf’s Adrian Dantley and Bernard King are my faves, besides Barkley. Never said I didn’t like Webber, I hold him in high regards, just his lack of overall success (not all his fault) holds him back in my eyes.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgvwfvTcNl0 danpowers

    worthy was a small forward anyway. allways officially listed as a sf and also actually played the 3 spot. so why compare him with webber anyway?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgvwfvTcNl0 danpowers

    ahwwww yes @shutup. i dont know much about dantley but how could i forgot about king? shame on me! and yes, its rlly tragic that webber had to deal with all this injuries, same with lj.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/10/nfl-players-advice-to-lebron-james-stick-to-basketball/ shutup

    its not as clear cut as your saying. but I already alluded to that issue earlier. same thing about the big O being a pg. its a shade of grey. most places have him listed as a forward tbh.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/10/nfl-players-advice-to-lebron-james-stick-to-basketball/ shutup

    even with injuries LJ was one of my favorite players. unfortunately I was a knick fan growing up. The way he adapted his game was remarkable, his post game was solid, he laid the blueprint for what Blake or Howard should do if they end up losing that athletic edge.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgvwfvTcNl0 danpowers

    didnt rambis/mcadoo share the 4 spot in his early laker years and ac green play the 4 later on for the lakers? i think worthy would play pf in todays nba, like the hawks use smith due to a lack of outside shooting. and man i was so sad when the knicks gave up mason to get lj. johnsons first season at ny was very disapointing while mason was playing the ball of his life in charlotte. but later lj made up for it. remember that 4pt play against indiana? ahwwww how i miss those days. woodson better make the bunch we got now work.

    and about the debate, if we compare worthy in his prime to cwebb in his prime id say webber is the better overall player (the 2000 kings version for example) but worhy was absolutely perfect at playing and understanding his role. he perfectly stuck to his skill set and offensive system. so we got an overall all star all 1st team caliber player in webber when healthy and one of the best role players with star potential in worthy. maybe worthys value was higher to his team but i think webber was the better overal player.

  • Allenp

    The only man to I ever saw do a credible job guarding prime Shaq was Tim Duncan. Only man. Overrated. Good Lord. Dude was a shotblocker great individual pos defender and anchored the team defense. This is sad.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgvwfvTcNl0 danpowers

    ben wallace also looked good against prime shaq and he was the one finally stopping the diesel in the finals (thanks big ben). but yes, duncans play against shaq was also great.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    I’ll say this: Shaq is vastly more overrated than Tim Duncan. And I would much rather build a team around Duncan than Shaq. I also have Duncan ahead of Shaq on the All-Time list. IMO Hakeem > Shaq as well.
    Also, Pposse is wrong about Timmy but he’s a good sport–no need for the insults.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Co-sign shutup, the center position is by far the weakest today, but all time I’d say it’s probably the best, most exciting position in basketball. I miss it.
    What’s the weakest position all time? I’d say PF.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgvwfvTcNl0 danpowers

    as a knick fan ive never been a big fan of the diesel and i really hated him back then. but you got to admit that he was unstoppable in his prime. that guy was a force of nature in a class of his own. he would even bully dwight howard or blake griffin in the paint as if they were children in todays nba. olajuwon was even or maybe a little bit better than prime shaq in his two championship seasons but shaqs reign / dominance lasted longer than olajuwons. if olajuwon was that dominant, he wouldve had reached the finals a bit more often. shaq had 5 appearences (1xorl and 4xlak) as the first offensive option of his team and one as the second best player (1xmia) to win it all 4 times while olajuwon reched the finals 3 times to win it all 2 times. so how can you say a guy with 4 rings and 3 finals mvps could be overrated while some of the greatest players to ever play the game had to end their careers ringless?

  • http://Gmail.com z

    Just wanna say readin all the comments has been enjoyable as heck thanks to Chinese O. Man youre hilarious and i gotta say you came up with the perfect adjective for steven jax: grimy. Perfect! As for greatest pf i go TD by a whole lot honestly i prefer putting him in the center debates though i gotta agree with lakeshow: kg was the better player in 04 and 05. Allenp your knowledge impresses me man. Your analogy of chuck and al was spot on (brings the question of socioeconomic backgrounds and the effect that it has on player development to mind e.g. why did mj td and kobe maximize potential while AI chuck DC didnt?) those two 76ers were two of the most electrifying players ever. Lastly and i know im gonna get killed as a stan for this but i’ll say it anyway: the trinity of all time greatest players is God, the Dream, aaaand the mamba. I understand there is a case to be made for countless others over kobe and even hakeem; i just ask in advance that you all respect that theres a strong case to be made in each of their favor. God, no one will disagree with me on.
    Z

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgvwfvTcNl0 danpowers

    @z: nobody would doubt god. but kobe and the dream over larry bird, kareem abdul jabbar, shaq, bill russell, jerry west, chamberlain and magic? why that? at least tell us why you got em over bird and magic.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    I’d say weakest all together is still 5 but the least necessary is PG.

  • http://www.xvideos.com nbk troll

    MJ Shaq lebron = top 3 ever

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    zomg lebron whut u serious nooooo wtf u r so dumb why the.. zomg zomg

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/10/nfl-players-advice-to-lebron-james-stick-to-basketball/ shutup

    As good as Hakeem was and believe me he is high on my list of favorites, its hard to put him in the convo for top 3 centers of all time let alone top three players. Wilt, Kareem and Russell, ahead of him and Shaq, Hakeem and Moses Malone round out top 6.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    I’d go Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Hakeem, Shaq, Moses… I might even place Hakeem at #3; IMO it’s hard to rank Russell because even though he’s the greatest winner in professional sports, he also had some of the best teammates out of any athlete in history.
    Also Shaq played in by far the weakest era for centers. Name one great center even worthy of HOF discussion that Shaq played against during his winning years? I can only think of Mutombo. When Shaq and Hakeem went head-to-head in ’95, Hakeem got the best of him. Hakeem dominated every center in the ’90s, from Ewing to Robinson to Shaq to whoever else. I can’t think of a single one of those great ’90s centers to have outplayed him. Dude literally had no weakness whatsoever in his game. He won his first ring with possibly the least talented championship team in NBA history. I think dude is sorely underrated, and that’s saying something ’cause everyone knows he was amazing.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    @ dan: I would say overrated in comparison to Hakeem or Duncan, who actually aren’t overrated at all. For the reasons listed above. Also Shaq did have weaknesses in his game. Glaring ones. He was just so damn good at what he did that his dominance overshadowed everything else.

  • http://Roosterteeth.com Caboose

    Jordan
    Wilt
    Kareem
    Magic
    Hakeem
    Duncan
    Russell
    Bird
    Shaq
    Robertson

  • http://Slamonline.com Black Mamba

    I think Dirk Nowitzki is the most overrated PF in the game. He has one move, his fadeaway. That’s it. And if he proved his greatness in the finals last year, then why didn’t he come back hungry for more. True legends taste that championship glory and they want more (Kobe, Jordan, Magic, Bird, to give some examples). But this guy finally gets one and is just happy with it. That’s not what a true champion does. True champions have the hunger for greatness. Lets not forget his choke job in 2006. And that in 2011 he was guarding Chris Bosh, Udonis Haslem, and Juwan freaking Howard. All of which he had a significant height advantage over.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/10/nfl-players-advice-to-lebron-james-stick-to-basketball/ shutup

    Shaq still had Yao, Mourning, Sabonis, Divac and webber and Ewing was still playing also Robinson and Duncan, lets not forget Shaq went against Hakeem in his second season, and Dominate him might not be the best term to describe what happened, Hakeem got his but so did Shaq. Hakeem went for 32 and 11 Shaq went for 28 and 12. Hakeem had Robert Horry, Clyde Drexler, Sam Cassell and Kenny Smith, those guys were no scrubs. also the same years Hakeem won his two chips Shaq avg over 29 ppg. Hakeems highest scoring year in his career was a lil bit over 27 ppg. I think Shaq’s footwork is severely underrated, there hasn’t ever been someone his size who moved as well as him, at least Olajuwan was built similar to Wilt and Russell sh!t even McHale had the same body type, Shaq is an anomaly, a very special specimen, that being said I see how personal preference would dictate choosing who you place at 4.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgvwfvTcNl0 danpowers

    @teddy-the-bear: sure, shaq had more flaws in his game than most other greats of the nba. but what was so special about him, he was still unstoppable and so strong, that no team or player was able to stop him when he was at his best. it wasnt even close. he bullied people like nobody b4 and nobody after him. i wonder if there will ever be a big with this mobility, power, quickness, ballhandling and finishing skills. we rather see another olajuwon or duncan bevor we see another shaq. i allways felt like “this isnt fair that guy is just too much physically” and i wanted to see shaq fail. i think many of us, even writers / journalists feel like this and were, to put it in stupid kids words “hating” on him back them because he bullied all our teams. now most of us write and talk him worse than he actually was also because we remember his regression like his post championship yr in miami, his big mouth small game time in phoenix and his time with boston when he played the teams clown instead of the teams pivot. that cant erase that he was the most dominant guy of all time in his laker days. now you say wilt was dominant too, but wilt was the only one of his kind. put wilt into the 90s and he will be even with guys like ewing, robinson, olajuwon, mourning, etc but he wouldnt put up his inflatious numbers. the number of his rings also says alot about his kind of dominance.

    @black mamba: nowitzki got just one move? the mavs didnt repeat because they didnt really want it? lol

  • http://Slamonline.com Black Mamba

    Yes. What about them this year made them seem like the title was the number one goal. One lethal move. Every player has more than one move

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgvwfvTcNl0 danpowers

    the teams devensive anchor left, key bench guys left, everybody got another yr older – how was a batteled nowitzki able to carry that team to the finals again? that chip was his very last chance to win it all imo and he delivered. i am not a big nowitzki fan even tho i am german but everybody saw that the mavs got robbed in the 2006 finals. lets give him 1 1/2 rings ;) but if you think that nowitzki only got one lethal move, please read an nba scouting report about him or just watch him play for one single game.

  • http://Slamonline.com Black Mamba

    I never said it was his entire fault. And no the mavs didnt get robbed in 2006. Dirk choked and the better team won. And yes the fadeaway is his only unstoppable move. He’s said himself this year that he wasn’t in shape because of championship celebrations. I’m just saying that’s not the mindset of a champion. Plain and simple he’s overrated. Just my opinion. And judging by this season it looks like Chandler was just as important to Dirk as Dirk was to him because both their teams sucked. (no disrespect to your Knicks but they need a training camp badly). But knicks did better than Mavs.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgvwfvTcNl0 danpowers

    well, if somebody accidently stood too close to wade he got a foul call. if thats not unfair, what is? basketball is a team sport, no star, not even jordan wouldve won a title without a supporting cast. if dirk doesnt have the mindset of a champion, where did he get his ring and finals mvp trophy from?

  • Loyola

    Welcome to USA. They’re dead where it doesn’t count. Or just injured. And they are black and maybe from the projects. They doesn’t count for Obama, Bush, JFK… They just count to vote and go to Irak.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgvwfvTcNl0 danpowers

    loyola wtf are you talking about?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Shut up
    I know why you put Russell ahead of him, along with the other two. And really that’s not a bad choice. In fact, the Kareem argument is mighty strong.
    But, I believe Hakeem was the best combo of everything a superstar center should be.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Dan Powers
    You need to go back and look at Shaq’s numbers against Ben Wallace in that Finals. he had one bad game because of foul trouble. Other than that, the only person who stopped Shaq in that Finals was Kobe Bryant.
    Check the tape homie.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Allenp
    You are dead wrong, you go rewatch the NBA Finals, Kobe was getting doubled and Shaq got alot of his points when games were over. Shaq was not dominating Ben, his numbers look good, but numbers do lie. EXAMPLE, is 2012 NBA Finals, KD shot over 50% from the field averaged about 30pts per game, but his team looked bad. See people want to blame Westbrook, but he played with Fire and KD did not. Same with 2004 NBA Finals, Kobe was playing with Fire and the other boys got old fast man, I am a Laker guy, watched it, was very upset, but Shaq finally in an NBA Finals had someone who could guard him. All the other NBA Finals, Shaq had no one to guard him. To blame Kobe, shows your lack of knowledge and Kobe hatred, superstar.

  • Dennis

    Everything I ever heard about TD, he was never said to be selfish. Bro has always had class. Good Heath for the next
    season.

  • Greg

    Shaq himself called Duncan “my most worthy playoff opponent…” Shaq does not give props to ANYONE but Jordan, Dream & Timmy. Over the past 10-12 years there have been only 2 truly great/dominant/championship/franchise players: TD & Shaq.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Durant looked great to me.
    I watched the Finals. Kobe shot the Lakers out of the series. Everyone who isn’t concerned with fondling Kobe knows he shot them out of that Finals because we watched the games.
    If you believe that Ben Wallace was more able to guard Shaq than Deke, then that’s one you. Ben Wallace did nothing with Shaq. He was shooting like crazy. As I pointed out on a previous thread, Kobe took 153 more shots than Shaq during that playoffs and only MADE eight more buckets.
    Think about that. 153 more shots, and only eight more made buckets.
    If a team double teamed Kobe Bryant and he didn’t figure out a way to get the world’s most dominant player the ball, then Kobe Bryant is nowhere near as great as you believe him to be.
    Which one is it?
    You say the numbers lie?
    Shaq had 34 and 11 on 81 percent shooting in game one. That’s right, he took 16 shots and made 13. You know what Kobe shot that game? 10 for 27! that is 37 percent!
    He had 36 and 20 in game Four on 71 percent shooting. You know what Kobe shot that game? 8 for 25.
    Shaq only had one bad game the entire series. Kobe shot them out of that series. Any one who believes otherwise is a liar. The entire world watched it happen and the freaking numbers back it up.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    You keep calling out Durant for failing in the Finals, then giving Kobe a pass for getting swept by Dallas one year, then stomped by the Thunder the next.
    It’s ridiculous.
    Durant murdered everyone on the Heat’s team not named LeBron. And he still got buckets on LeBron, just less efficiently. And you talk about he didn’t have fire. Dude just didn’t have the total game that LeBron has right now. He’s got time to get there. See, he’s THE MAN on his team at 23. He doesn’t have the Most Dominant player in the League on his team to win championships for him.

  • Sérgio

    Allenp, I agree with you that Kobe forced the issue a lot in 2004 NBA Finals. But man, LA was a broken team at the time. Kobe was forced to shoot long jumpers against a great defender in Prince (and a great team defense from Detroit, that packed the paint) because no one was moving, asking for the ball or in position to shoot.
    Remember, Payton was had no interest in the games whatsoever. It was disgunting to see, specially from someone who really admired his game. Malone was hurt. And the only supporting cast player who had a good game was Luke Walton (!), in game 2.
    And Shaq, he didn’t look that interested too. He wasn’t fighting for position, wasn’t active defensively or crashing the offensive boards. Obviously, when he got the ball, he scored, because he was really great and Wallace, as good a defender as he was, is 6-9, agains Shaq’s 7-1 frame. But, to me, he really didn’t want to play with Kobe anymore, and he was letting everyone know that with his play.
    Regarding Seed’s comments of Durant, I understand what he says. KD averaged 30 PPG in the Finals with 50% plus shooting, but he wasn’t dominant, and he was Lebronesque in the 4th quarters of all games, except game 1. As the proclaimed 2nd best player in the league, he should’ve said “No way we’re losing these games, give me the f#ckin ball!” and gone to work. He should’ve tried to will OKC to win, but he didn’t.
    On the other side, Westbrook played BY HIMSELF in Game 4, and almost won the game singlehandedly. And he struggled in other games, specially Game 5, but he left all he had in the floor. But I didn’t have this impression from KD.

  • Drig

    1. I think KG’s PnR D is better than Duncan’s but Duncan’s got the edge on Post-D.

    2. IMO, I’d say the PF order is : Duncan, KG, McHale, Malone, Barkley.

    3. Hakeem is the best C not named Wilt. IMO, Hakeem played better D than Kareem did but he didn’t have his longevity. At their peaks, I’d have taken Hakeem. Russell is hard to quantify as I’ve never seen him ( just like Wilt ) and the fact that he played on a team laden with HOF players ( Not much like Wilt at all )

    4.I’m kinda thinking SF position is the weakest. After top 5, it falls off a cliff when compared to Cs ( top 8 ), SGs ( top 7 ) and PF ( top 8 )

    5. Shaq is VERY MUCH OVERRATED ON D. He takes entire quarters off at times. And was painful to watch during regular season games. Criticizing Shaq for not having much competition at his position when he played is unfair esp. when I see how some guys revere MJ around here.

    6. Re : AllenP’s comments : I hope my defense of Kobe will appear soon.

  • Drig

    Wait, why is my Kobe defense comment not appearing but the above one which I posted after posting the previous one appears?? And why is slam effing around with my mail ID everytime I post something new lol??? The mail ID changes in every new window I open.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    @Seed&AllenP
    Both of you are just extreme sides of the convo.
    It’s like watching a Fox News loving Conservative battle a MSNBC watching, Bill Mauer worshiper.
    If you truly understand basketball you realize the difference between a Center and a Guard.
    Why don’t centers (besides Wilt, and Kareem, Shaq once) ever shoot 20 shots a game on average? They shoot a way higher percentage in general. So why not shoot more???
    ei.: Andrew Bogut. Bogut is a dominant center. He has a career FG% of 52%. He has never ever shot 14 fg’s a game…. That’s right 13.2 was his high mark. 10.4 is his career average. Is Andrew Bogut Shaq? NO.. No, he is not, but he is a dominant center in the NBA today. Why would he not shoot 20 FG’s a game? At least 15 right? Mo Williams and Redd both shot over 14 FG’s… Well, obviously because the dynamic on the court doesn’t allow for it.
    Thought we realized these basketball basics.
    Kobe can get shots off better/easier than Shaq. Albeit at a drastically lower percentage, you still want a guard to take pressure off the big man in that way. So there is no problem with a FG disparity.
    Where there is a problem is when you go into hero ball because you don’t trust your team mates. Which Kobe did. His fans need to realize this.
    Now here’s the problem with peoples perceptions. They think Kobe is a ball hogger, trying to make hero plays on every possession because he has done that in that past.(Yes in the Detroit series. He did very good at getting Shaq in his spots at moments, but as the game winded down, yes hero mode was enabled)
    Realizing the dynamics on the court will help both of you.
    Kobe plays hero ball too much.
    Shaq couldn’t make a free throw to save his life at some points.
    Kobe doesn’t play within the system every time he should.
    Shaq never even remotely tried to open his game up by learning how to shoot FT’s or a short jumper.
    They are both flawed but both Top 12′ers All Time.
    IMO :)
    *(BTW Seed, I don’t go for what you are saying about “Durants fire.”
    He balled hard. He’s young. He played better than Kobe did last year in the playoffs.)*

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Sergio
    I agree with you. Shaq checked out at some points.
    You know why? Because there is nothing more disheartening to a big man than wrestling with a 270 pound monster for position and then watching your guard jack a 20-foot jumper after one dribble. I really, really don’t think people who play on the perimeter can appreciate how angry this makes a post player. So he checked out. But he was still Shaq.

  • Drig

    Well…..since my huge post isn’t appearing, I more or less co-sign what Sergio said. I also want to put it out there that Detroit fouled Kobe a ton but didn’t get on them. That also plays a role esp. when you’re a perimeter oriented player. Kobe played on a bum knee in ’11. It was clear. The Kobe led Lakers had the lead at the start of the 4th quarters over OKC in 4 games. They were much closer than people give credit for. Durant also has the MOST BALANCED team with two above all-star but below superstar level players. The ’01 Lakers had Kobe, Shaq, Fox, Horry and Fish as a jack of all trades. Nothing more. Basically, zero bench and zero high quality perimeter play sans Kobe.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Shaq can’t shoot free throws, he’s lazy on defense and his only dependable “move” is a jump hook.
    And he parlayed that and his amazing physical talents into being a top five center of all time.
    That field goal disparity I posted wouldn’t be so bad if the field goals made wasn’t so different.
    153 more shots.
    8 more makes.
    Do the math people.

  • Sérgio

    Allenp, Yes, I understand your point. It’s tough to keep fighting for position and not receive the ball.
    Man, I’m a Kobe fan, but really, why do SLAMers need to change the subject of almost all discussions to him? This started as a discussion of who is the best PF of all time, and it was developing great, and suddenly we’re arguing over KB’s performance in 04 finals. Damn!

  • Drig

    @Allenp………..NO perimeter player sans Kobe shot about 30% for the Lakers that series ( Kobe was 39% ). Shaq was beasting on O but not putting in much effort on D. Surely you aren’t one of those guys who think going exclusively to the post for most of the game is gonna get you the W? Esp. when they pack the paint and don’t get called for fouls?? Seriously, DFish was the next best with 30%! 30%!!! What I do agree with is how Kobe jacked up 3s. That was the ONLY point where I was totally pissed off. That and he usually tried to leak away on transition and didn’t get as many rebs as he should’ve done.

  • Drig

    BTW, Kobe wasn’t a bright spot for the Lakers that series. But he wasn’t the only dark spot that year. That’s all I’m saying. So, before calling out Kobe, also look at how the rest of the guys were performing on the perimeter. BTW, Shaq got 55 FTAs compared to Kobe;s 25 but only made 27 of them. I’d say if he worked a bit more on his FTs ( like Kobe should’ve on his 3pt shooting that series :( ), LAL could’ve gotten away with the title. It was very weird to say the least. Most confusing and empty feeling I’ve had as a Laker fan. Even the ’11 sweep didn’t make me feel so empty.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/10/nfl-players-advice-to-lebron-james-stick-to-basketball/ shutup

    @Lakeshow you wanna talk about the unwritten rules of basketball, what happens to reward the big man? You do realize that Wilt or Kareem never had trouble getting their shots 22.5/18.1 fgapg for their careers respectively. That Detroit team was designed to stop wing players, Ben Wallace couldn’t do anything with Shaq except flop, the D on Kobe and the rest of the Laker’s wing players is what won/lost the series.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/10/nfl-players-advice-to-lebron-james-stick-to-basketball/ shutup

    Hakeem had a couple seasons where he avg over 20 shots a game, same with Patrick Ewing and David Robinson. With Olajuwan you take off his last 3 seasons where he avg less than 10 shots per game and his career avg is right around 19 fgapg. Robinson had one season above 2o fgapg, when he did he lead the league in scoring. Ewing had 7 season north of 18 fgapg, 3 of which were more than 19 and two where he shot more than 20 fgapg. Shaq needs to be compared to these guys more than Andrew Bogut.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Drig, and Sergio are sane minded basketball, and Kobe fans.
    Good to see your still out there fellas.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    This wasn’t about the flaws of that Lakers team, which was crippled by Malone’s absence after he carried that team for much of the end of the season.
    I made an offhand comment noting that it is ridiculous to believe that Ben Wallace locked up Shaq when the real culprit was his gunning shooting guard. Kobe fans cannot allow anyone to disparage their idol, so it turned into something else.
    Bottom line, Duncan was an outstanding defender who proved his worth by, among other things, guarding Shaq when it counted for his team and doing a credible job. Mainly be forcing Shaq to shoot over his length, and then boxing him out to prevent Shaq from crashing the offensive glass and abusing him.
    This was amazing, not some fluke occurence that anyone could duplicate, which was the argument made.
    That’s how we ended up talking about Kobe.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Shutup, I agree on allot of your points.
    I think you still aren’t quite giving Ben Wallace enough credit.
    I was off on my 20 FG’s limit with Centers, but the truth still stands that Centers are not able to have the free reign of the floor that Guards have. Vince Carter shot as many or more FG attempts over his career than most GREAT Centers have. Is that because he is a ball hog? Maybe sometimes, but he just played his style of game. Which is 20 FGA at 45% style. If you don’t like it you don’t have to.
    I play every position on the floor when I play basketball. I understand the frustration of not getting the ball in the post and also the frustration of watching a team mate not make free throws when fouled(Everytime) when given the ball in a good position to score.
    There’s two sides to this story.
    I truly think Kobe and Shaq are of equal blame on that 03-04 team. That’s fine if you see it otherwise.

  • Sérgio

    Check it, LakeShow.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Vince Carter didn’t play with SHAQ!
    I think people miss this incredibly important point. If you play with a dominant big, you shouldn’t shoot a horrible percentage and you shouldn’t be jacking bad shots. You should force the defense to adjust to your dominant big, and then get good shots.
    We told this to Steve Francis and Cuttino Mobley with Yao. We said the same thing about Orlando’s gunner with Dwight Howard. The Rockets knew who to get the ball. Same with the Spurs. Jerry West got hit shots, but he also got Wilt his looks. Magic fed Kareem.
    When you’re a wing by yourself and you’re the main scoring option, your percentage is going to dip because it’s tougher to carry teams from the wing. That’s why Jordan is so revered. But, when you’re a wing, with a great big man, and you’re taking the shots only wings without big men should take, then people are going to be upset.
    Kobe is not criticized because he takes tough shots, at least not by smart people. Sometimes in basketball you have to take tough shots, and often Kobe is stuck with the ball at the end of the shot clock and forced to take a tough shot. Kobe is criticized because throughout his career he was willfully sought out tough shots to take as a means of displaying his skills, even if that came at the expense of winning games. Phil Jackson saw it. We all have seen it.
    Chucking isn’t about how many shots you take, it’s about how many better shots you prevent other people from taking.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgvwfvTcNl0 danpowers

    @Allenp: i didnt say that wallace defended shaq better than duncan did. i just said duncan was not the only one coz wallace did a great job in those 2004 finals. like the seed said, wallace contained shaq very well (it was impossible to totally stop him) and shaq collected many of his stats when games were over or wallace didnt play him. i watched that complete finals series

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Yup, Steve Francis, and Cuttino with Yao are a great example to use for players similar to the Kobe, Shaq dynamic….
    Jerry West averaged twice as many shots per game as Wilt in 1971-72. Four more people took more shots than Wilt did that Championship year.
    Magic is a point guard. not only that, but the best PG of all time. It’s no surprise he was better at getting the ball to Kareem more-so than Kobe was to Shaq. Just like Magic wasn’t nearly the prolific scorer Kobe is.
    Sometimes (never) you can’t just dump the ball down to the post for that 60% FG you are supposedly getting ‘every time’.
    Kobe shoots bad shots, and doesn’t make his team mates better (in general).
    Shaq was unmotivated and never took his defensive assignments as seriously as he should have (in general).
    Sorry, not gunna blame it all on Kobe like you.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/10/nfl-players-advice-to-lebron-james-stick-to-basketball/ shutup

    Maybe numbers lie but I don’t think so, the numbers back up what I remember seeing Shaq fg% was actually above his season avg and so was his ppg in those finals against Detroit. Reg season he shot .584 and avg 21.5 in that series he shot an amazing .631 and avg 26.6 ppg. and his turnovers stayed at his reg season avg just a shade under 3pg. Sometimes we see what we want, Kobe struggled heavily at times during that series and lets not forget this it was Kobes choice to change the formula that was working for the last 3 chips, he wanted to be the man and shot his team out of the hardware. Do want to point out though Shaq avg a lil over a half a block per game that series that is unacceptable for an all-time center.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    You said what I know, and agree with…^
    Your still blaming it on Kobe though. I don’t see how you can blame him for losing the series for them there and then say Shaq won them the other titles.
    Like you said: “unacceptable for an all-time center”
    Agreed. Just like it was unacceptable for an all time shooting guard. The Lakers were bad that playoffs. They were all talent and no team. If you wanna say that’s Kobe’s fault that’s fine. I’m not going to say that.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgvwfvTcNl0 danpowers

    @sgztup: even wikipedia got that stuff: “The game was a rematch of the heated Eastern Conference finals which the Detroit Pistons won on their way to the 2004 NBA Finals where they defeated the Los Angeles Lakers 4-1 on the back of Wallace’s effective and strong defense against a declining but still dominant Shaquille O’Neal.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Wallace

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgvwfvTcNl0 danpowers

    @shutup: sry i messed ur nick up, typed while bein vast asleep

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/10/nfl-players-advice-to-lebron-james-stick-to-basketball/ shutup

    check out the field goal attempts the years that the lakers won. Shaq took the lion shares of shots and put up massive numbers. 2004 Kobe took the most shots and Shaq’s scoring in the Finals dropped. 2000 Shaq attempts/Kobe attempts ppg avg Shaq/ Kobe.157/90- 38/15.6—–(2001) 110/106- 33/24.6————(2002) 84/70- 36.3/26.8 now in 2004 84/113 and scoring was 26.6/22.6….Do you see why people believe it was Kobe’s fault? You can’t underestimate the impact of those shots on Shaq’s motivation too the three years they won it he was avg close to 3bpg but the year of the mamba he only avg .6. I don’t put 100% of the blame on Kobe but just like the shots he gets the lion’s share of the blame.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/10/nfl-players-advice-to-lebron-james-stick-to-basketball/ shutup

    Think about this you as a player shoot 13-16 thats .841% score 34 and grab 11 boards yet your teammate shoots 27 shots and makes only 10 you lose by 12; how does that make you feel? Also the only game the Lakers won during those finals is the only game Kobe managed to shoot a good % (meaning >.40) Game 2 he shot 14/27 for 33 points, Shaq shot 10/20 for 29 points. never once in the series did Shaq shoot under .5. For the series Shaq made 53/84. Kobe made just 43/113. Sorry to keep piling these stats on, I don’t want to come off as some Kobe hater, I just was disappointed the ways things went down in LA. @dan no prob I also check slam in the middle of the night when I cant sleep or get off work and gotta wind down.

  • Drig

    @shutup……..Fair enough. Kobe wasn’t shooting efficiently. ESPECIALLY from deep ( which is something that killed LAL that series ). However, no other perimeter player on either team sans Chauncey I think shot a good percentage that Finals. The problem for LAL was while Rip and Prince were close enough to Chauncey’s FG%, there was also a huge drop off from Kobe to Fish. So, you see no problem in Shaq having only 3 blocks across 5 games, no other Laker besides Kobe and Shaq being able to get to the line ( which all starting 5 of Detroit managed to do which in itself was BS), offensive rebounds that Ben, Rasheed, Tayshaun and Rip managed to get ( Team fault ) and the small problem of them shooting the 3 ball better than we did ( Team fault including Kobe ) and the fact that Malone wasn’t Malone and Payton sucked. Also, shutup, you missed the horrendous Kobe 3pt% :P

  • Drig

    Also, regarding the 00,01 and 02 titles, the role players stepped up in all of them as well. They shot a good percentage in all of them. In 04, nobody stepped up. The FG attempts tell only half the story and skewer a lot of the negative points towards Kobe. But look at how the rest of them performed as well and then you’ll get the entire picture : LAL as a team failed. Payton, Fisher, Luke and Devan played half the minutes Kobe did but averaged the same number of fouls. And most of them went to Rip and Chauncey who were good FT shooters to say the least. LAL had Shaq going to the line most times and he shot 50% :| . That was also a factor. ( Still think Kobe was fouled many times during the course of the series and the refs swallowed their whistles. ) Kobe made the glaring mistake. But the rest of them weren’t grade A or B….everyone sans Shaq and Kobe were C or C- that series.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2011/10/nfl-players-advice-to-lebron-james-stick-to-basketball/ shutup

    Never said they didn’t fail as a team, and I lumped Kobe’s shooting altogether, just was trying to prove a point that Shaq still delivered the same (except the blocks) that he did in previous years, his shot attempts went down and Kobe’s went up. So its logical to assume Shaq efficiency remained at least constant and Kobes dropped compared to the previous 3. I did point out earlier that i believed the Detroit D focused on shutting down wing players. All I was pointing out that their failure’s responsibility fell more on Kobe then Shaq, although it wasn’t Kobe’s alone, he was the majority share holder.

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