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Wednesday, August 15th, 2012 at 10:05 am  |  366 responses

Jim Boeheim Thinks LeBron James Could be Better Than Michael Jordan


Syracuse University head coach Jim Boeheim, who has been a longtime assistant for USA Basketball, has observed an endless amount of talent during his career. And according to the uber-experienced coach, Michael Jordan always was the best player he’d ever seen play, by a mile. Well, that was until the 2012 version of LeBron James arrived. Via Syracuse.com: “‘I’ve always thought Michael Jordan was the best player that I’ve ever seen,’ Boeheim said. ‘I always have and I didn’t think it was close. I’m not so sure any more. And I love Michael Jordan. I’m not so sure anymore. This guy is 6-foot-9 and 260 pounds, and he’s getting better. He works on his game. His shooting is getting better. He’s a phenomenal, phenomenal basketball player. I love this game; I love the history of this game. I know we’ve had great, great players through the years. He’s like Magic Johnson with Michael Jordan-type skills as well.’”

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  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    Uh oh. Going to be a lot for people to say on this post.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Crack is wack Boeheim, he needs to take care of his college team and Lebron wins one ring and the world loves him. LOL. This same thing happend with Dirk when he won a ring, everybody called Dirk on par with Larry and acted like he was so great. Man, people are so prisoners of the moment. MJ has already stated who is comparable.

  • miagus23

    and let the dicussions begin…

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    And we’re off.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Damn…seems like you can’t go a day without hearing the same ole tiresome “MJ/Kobe/LB” comparisons.

  • jay cutler

    Now taking bets on how many comments this thread is going to have. I’m setting the over and under at 93.

    Go!

  • ctk

    if he can win 3 outta the next 4 titles …especially if he can beat the Lakers with they four ..n Durant another time or 2 …with another 2-3MVPs n possibly a DPOY award along the way …his numbers will be no worst 27,7,7,2,n1 ..50fg 75ft …basically its all about titles to define his legacy

  • http://www.slamonline.com Eboy

    It’s just an opinion. If Lebron wins a couple of more rings in the next few years and really cements his “winning” legacy, then and maybe then, can he be included in the same proverbial “gym” as Mike. His skills are there, the drive, the passion, but he has to really show prolonged winning as his greatest skill. There’s a great possibility he’ll be in his 3rd straight Finals this coming season….and if the Heat can win this year’s title, then his time in Miami will have been fully realized. If they fall short to a hungry Thunder team or a much improved Lakers squad, then the same group of people that have heaped praise on him will be trying to knock him back down again. It’s the way sh*t goes. And it’s everyone’s opinions that play this out in the court of public perception. Just like Boeheim did with this story with his opinion. I love what he’s done in Miami and how he’s fended off the ridiculous criticisms from the jealous b*tches that make up NBA fandom. That to me, at this point, has been his greatest skill….being a stand up dude in the wake of incredible strife. His basketball acumen is unquestioned. Right after The Decision, his life skills were not….he’s been on the path to correctness for a little while now. Applaud the dude for that.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    The world searches. Scouring, hunting for the player that will be better than The Jordan.
    Ahh, well.
    We know that he is… THE KING.
    We know that The King is simply AND purely the greatest basketball player on the face of the earth, today.
    The greatest since Michael Jordan.
    BUT… he will never be better than Jordan.
    Now, to throw some fuel into this fire;
    What respected, championship level, olympic credentialed coach EVER discussed Kobe Bryant having potential to be better than Jordan?
    No one??
    Oh. Well, there. We have it.
    LONG… LIVE… THE KING.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    The Philo, TD not LeBron is the greatest since MJ. His accolades/titles back that up.

  • Drig

    Well……let’s see….right now, Kobe’s success + LBJ’s accolades = MJ’s achievements stats wise……

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    John Salley made comments yesterday about how the Pistons defended Jordan and how Jordan defended guys. He played during a time where defenders could put their hands on offensive players (the way it should be). Today’s game is different. LeBron would survive and do well in either era because of how strong he was naturally before he put on more weight. He came into the league 6’8 240. Physical freak of nature. Just hearing people mention a player’s name in the same sentence with Jordan makes some people cringe. But look at the numbers. LeBron doesn’t need to win 6 titles to be in that discussion. He could win 3 or 4 (which is possible) and add that with his statistics and the way he’s separated himself from everyone else (including Kobe) and it is a discussion that will need to be had once his career is over. People throw Kobe’s 5 rings out there like that is the only thing that matters. The huge knock against Kobe is he’s always needed a great big man. Without one, he didn’t get past the 1st round. He’s won only 2 titles as the best player on his team. That’s all he’ll ever get because if the Lakers win more with Dwight, Dwight will be seen as it’s best player as he should be. Jordan just needed a solid defender/rebounder inside and a star wing player with him. LeBron got to the Finals with Larry Hughes and Boobie Gibson. He took down a great Pistons team to get to the Finals. Kobe’s FG% is also something that needs to be looked at. Not that great compared to Jordan’s and LeBron’s. LeBron is a Magic/MJ hybrid. Kobe’s never been interested in getting his teammates involved. Boeheim isn’t out of line with his comments. At the end of his career, LeBron will be seen as a better overall player than Kobe.

  • Da-Meat-Hook

    He’s on pace to make it very competitive, but MJ somehow managed to increase his skillset until he was 31 and then somehow mantain it until he was 35 despite “losing a step” towards his mid-30′s. If Bron can perfect that post up game and improve his long range game (2 things MJ did to lengthen his career), it’s not out of the question. The thing is, by the time MJ was 29, Pippen was drawing the toughest defensive perimeter assignments and Grant/Rodman did the same in the post, which allowed MJ to focus a lot of his energy on continuing to be the offensive juggernaut he was. I seriously doubt Lebron will enjoy that same luxury. Gonna be an interesting 5 years to come.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    @JTaylor Glad you mentioned Duncan because he gets lost in all of these post-MJ debates.

  • Da-Meat-Hook

    The Lebron James that the world witnessed this year is a better player than Kobe EVER was. I don’t even think it’s debatable.

  • Drig

    @ByAnyMeans…………Re: Kobe always needed a big man……MJ always needed a star wing player. Right? I hate it when Kobe gets slighted for that. Did Kobe ever have the chance to play with a guy like Pippen? Never. Did MJ ever get the chance to play with guys like Shaq? Never. Why can’t we leave it at that since we can’t compare…….. Sigh.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    @EVERYONE
    As of June 2012, Bryant ranks third and fifth on the league’s all-time post-season scoring and all-time regular season scoring lists, respectively. He is also the all-time leading scorer in Lakers franchise history. Since his second year in the league, Bryant has started in every NBA All-Star Game that has been held with fourteen All-Star appearances, winning the All-Star MVP Award four times (2002, 2007, 2009, and 2011). Bryant is tied for the most All Star MVP Awards in NBA history. He is a 14-time member of the All-NBA team and an 12-time member of the All-Defensive team; he is also the youngest player ever to receive defensive honors. At the 2008 Olympics, he won a gold medal as a member of the USA national team. ALSO HE HAS FIVE RINGS GOING FOR SEVEN OR EIGHT!!1
    ________________________________________________________________________
    @JTAYLOR12, In 2009, Sporting News and TNT named Bryant the top NBA player of the 2000s decade and plenty of other magazines, publications and sports shows. PERIOD!!!

  • http://www.slamonline.com Wayno

    He’s only 28…he most definitely COULD be the GOAT when all is said and done, but we’ll see. The potential and talent is there, the rest depends on him.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    If The King can fully solve his issues at the foul line, then, there is lefitimate conversation.
    If he can get to an 80% clip, then, we have a discussion.
    And I agree with a few of ByAnyMeansNeccessary’s points.
    As well as a few of Eboy’s.
    @JTaylor21:
    Debatable.

  • BR

    @jay cutler: 58

  • http://www.slamonline.com Wayno

    @ Drig – there was never an argument about who the best player on the 90′s Bulls teams was. It was always MJ, no question. With Kobe, 3 of his rings came with him playing 2nd fiddle to Shaq. That’s the difference.

  • http://www.nba.com Gman

    @Da-Meat-Hook…. false… Phil Jackson usually kept his lineup as is. Ron Harper, Pippen and MJ all defended tough players. And shared time doing it.

    At times in the playoffs with scoring was required, Pippen would switch to the tough ones, but that is because there was a lack of offense.

  • JB

    LBJ had a great year, but let’s see how many championships he wins before comparisons begin. He has a long way to go.

  • Drig

    Also BTW, Kobe aside from the last year due to LAL’s horrendous spacing and twin towers, has ALWAYS been better than LBJ and probably even Jordan from range. The problem is a good shot at the rim has a better chance of conversion than a perimeter shot. The other problem is Kobe’s most effective area is the 5-15ft area ( just like MJ ) but the problem is that’s also Pau’s/Odom’s best area AND the fact that at times bigger defenders from LAL’s post players would close out and try to double Kobe which hinders him from getting the major chunk of his shots from there. LBJ and MJ should be credited for being able to play to their strengths and get the majority of their shots off from where they are most effective. Kobe at times due to his own ego and at times due to the makeup of the team, just simply can’t.

  • bike

    LeBron has the potential to be a better all-around player than Jordan. The next 3 to 4 years will tell. Right now, at the equivalent point in their respective careers/ages they are statistically real close. I would still give Jordan the slight edge because of his other-worldly athleticism and spectacular style of playing. However, LeBron is cracking the mold. He is going to go down in history as the greatest 5 position player ever. We wait, we debate, and we will see.

  • Ctk

    QUESTION EVERYBODY …Is this past season by the LeBron gap between the best/2nd best player bigger than every one of Jordan championship yrs between him/his toughest comp

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    @The Seed Everyone knows how you are with Kobe. Tim Duncan is the best player since Jordan. Kobe’s the best guard since Jordan.
    All we can look at is what actually happened, not what might have happened. We saw Kobe with and without a big man. With, championships. Without, no postseason and a 1st round exit…and he was in his prime. I’ll say it again, 2 of Kobe’s prime years were spent either at home before the middle of April or headed towards a 1st round exit. Up 3-1 against the Suns and they lost 3 straight. Compare Kobe’s Lakers right after Shaq got traded and during those bad 2 years to the 07 Cavs. Boobie Gibson, Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden, Big Z, Donyell Marshall compared to Smush Parker, Caron Butler, Jumaine Jones, Chucky Atkins, Lamar Odom, Kwame Brown, Sash Vujacic. Is there much of a difference? Kobe wanted Jason Kidd in a trade for Bynum. We all saw the video that got leaked. He wanted to be traded himself. Gasol arrives. He goes quiet. We heard him waffle more than Dwight did.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    You know why people don’t say Jordan “always” needed a star wing playr?
    BECAUSE IT’S NOT TRUE!
    Pippen was not a star when he came into the League. The Bulls were already a playoff team before Pippen and Grant were drafted. In their first three years, the Bulls went from first round exits to the Eastern Conference semi-finals and Finals. Pippen was a contributor, but he was far from a star.
    So, Jordan never won a ring without another star ring player, but he had much more team success without another star player than Kobe had. Let’s keep things accurate.
    But, I’m not getting sucked into this today. If every thing breaks right, LeBron could leapfrog Mike. But a lot of things have to break right.

  • Drig

    @Wayno………..now that is something I disagree. By the time the 2nd title came to LAL, he was putting up the same kind of production that he always did for the rest of the decade. He was double teamed just as much as Shaq was by the time we were half way into the season. Both were important. Kobe had similar if not better impact than Shaq did in the WCFs in the last 2 titles which were arguably where the NBA championship was decided those years. I know that Shaq was dominant throughout the playoffs and esp. in the Finals but Kobe was right there with him. Anyways, regarding the topic, I’d say if LBJ can continue piling up the stats sheet like he has for another 4-5 years, get 4 rings, get one more MVP title and not screw up a franchise as the owner…….I’d say he’s on par with MJ. And……….better than Kobe………But Kobe getting the 6th can change that.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    LeBron won’t turn 28 until this December. Still 27.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Kobe’s shooting percentage has very little to do with skill and everything to do with attitude. Dude is one of the most skilled players in the history of basketball. No one, anywhere, has ever, EVER questioned that fact.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    @ByAnyMeansNecessary
    In 2009, Sporting News and TNT named Bryant the top NBA player of the 2000s decade and plenty of other magazines, publications and sports shows. PERIOD!!! These people watch basketball for a living, played the game and have inside information. Do you have inside information, or just sit on your couch and evaluate the game, like everybody else. Your Welcomed!!

  • Ash

    He could be better only time will tell.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Drig
    You really believe Kobe was double teamed as much as Shaq? Come on man, you don’t believe that.
    Kobe’s most amazing series as a Laker with Shaq came against the Spurs and the was primarily because the Spurs committed to doubling and tripling Shaq and allowing anyone else to run wild.
    No one in the modern era, except Jordan, has been double teamed as much as Shaq.

  • jerico

    way way to early to compare mj, and he didn’t start getting his chips until around lbj’s age so really its just getting started with lbjs skill and physical prowess and the fact that he seems to have gotten out of his own way mentally not one person in the league can guard this locamotive, he definitely has a great chance to surpass the Goat but its to early to tell obviously, but the talent is there no question.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Wayno

    @Drig – that’s my point…there is still a debate about who was the best player on the Laker 3-peat team…there is no debate about it on ANY of MJ’s title teams.

  • Drig

    Also @Wayno……..who was the 2nd fiddle in Magic-Kareem showtime Lakers? Or Bird-Parish-McHale Celtics??? Those guys changed depending on the team that they were matched up against. Same with Shaq-Kobe lakers. Kobe was the 1A guy vs teams like the Spurs. Similarly with Shaq vs teams on the East etc. @AllenP………Kobe was fortunate enough to play with a star for most of his career yes. Kobe had 3 seasons when he had no star player on his team. 1 was in ’05 when LAL didn’t even make the Playoffs with a record comparable to MJ’s 2nd/3rd season without a star I think when the bulls finished with a losing record like LAL but made it into the POs because West in ’05 was badass. Next two seasons, Bryant exploded and got the team into the POs with a team arguably worse than Jordan’s rookie season and almost knocked out the Suns. Finally, in ’07 when Bynum developed enough to be a solid contributor, even before Pau came, LAL looked a much better team and was projected to be a team good enough to get to the WCSF even without Pau. So it’s not like Kobe can’t or couldn’t get it done. Thankfully, LAL FO managed to keep Kobe a great team for most of his career. Anyways, I meant that MJ needed Pippen to become a star before he could start winning. That’s all.

  • Respect

    Ive never seen michael jordan go a whole 4th qtr in the finals nd not score a point, ive never seen him lose an nba finals series, nd ive never seen him avg less than 20 in a finals series, nd on a side note if kevin durant ever wins DPOY then nba awards are a joke cuz his D sucks nd is way too overrated

  • Drig

    @AllenP……..I know Kobe wasn’t doubled as much as Shaq was vs most teams. But by the time the 2nd title run started, Kobe wasn’t the guy who was benefitting from Shaq getting doubled. Infact, if I remember correctly, since the big guy didn’t usually like PnR, even when they doubled Shaq, they kept the man at Kobe and didn’t dare remove him. When Kobe was hot though, I saw that he was doubled. Just as much as Shaq was.

  • David Sanders

    WHEN YOU’RE DISCUSSING THE BEST PLAYERS EVER RINGS SHOULDN’T BE THE BIGGEST FACTOR. OSCAR ROBINSON HAS 1 RING BUT HE’S TOP 10 EVER. WILT HAS 1 BUT IS TOP 2 CENTERS EVER. LOOK AT LEBRON PLAY AND CLEARLY YOU SEE HE IS BETTER THAN KOBE, HE CAN SCORE LIKE KOBE BUT YET DO MORE DEFENSIVELY, REBOUNDING, AND ASSISTING. HE’S NOT SELFISH AND LEBRON TRULY MAKES HIS TEAMMATES BETTER…..(CUE MIKE MILLER 2012 CHAMPIONSHIP PASSES)…..KOBE IS A SCORER, LEBRON DOES IT ALL. HE WILL BE THE BEST

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Seed
    What inside knowledge do you think the Sporting News has about Kobe Bryant that would give them a better perspective on evaluating how he plays?
    I’m honestly curious what people think sportswriters actually know.

  • Drig

    BTW @AllenP…..I assumed that you meant getting more “success” after they were good. Kobe’s first 3 seasons were nothing TBH. Not even close to the LBJ and MJ ones.

  • Rik Smits Mullet

    Ahh man the seed cracks me up.

    Kobe is mad talented but he only got 2 finals mvp’s. out of his 5 rings. that says enough. Shaq was the best player on those 3 first rings.

  • Selwyn ( UK )

    Lebron turned it all around in Game 6 @ Boston in the ECF. An incredible performance. From that game on he seemed to “change” . Jordan had alot of those games. Far too many to list on here , I am sure you all have your personal fav. Kobe has NOT had alot of those games . Think back , over the years of playoff games like WCF and Finals, how many times has Kobe turned in an ESPN Classic game. So far Lebron has had 2 ; against Detroit when he was still with the Cavs, and then the ECF Game 6 mentioned above. Jordan has by far the most of these “killer” games. As we all know , you can get stats to prove all different theories , but just go back and watch those Jordan games.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Drig
    Do you mean Jordan needed Pip to be a star before he started winning rings, or being he started having serious team success?
    And Kobe’s team wasn’t worse than Jordan’s teams the first two or three years. Go check those teams out. Kobe had Lamar Odom, a fringe All-Star, on his squad back then. To be completely honest, how much worse was Kobe’s team the first year they lost to Phoenix compared to Nash’s? The Suns had slightly more talent, but the real difference was that they system used, and the Nash maximized that talent.
    Kobe had poor talent, but he also never, EVER maximized that talent. Never forget that the Lakers were up 3-1 against the Suns without Amare.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Consign @Drig Posted: Aug.15 at 11:00 am
    People don’t get that about the Lakers of the three peat. I watched every game and saw what Kobe did for Shaq, Also Shaq would talk about how Kobe bailed them out of plenty of games. Also Lakers with Bynum becoming a star similar to Pippen getting better. Lakers with Kobe and now Pau was projected to make it into the Western Conference Finals. People forget about that. LA management just that good to keep pieces around Kobe, don’t blame Kobe, blame the Memphis Grizzles and Orlando Magic.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    @The Seed I don’t need Sporting News or TNT to create my opinion. This is all based on opinion. We’ve all watched the same games. You only use those two opinion pieces because they agree with your opinion. If they said LeBron was the top player, you wouldn’t have used them or if someone else had used them to aid their argument about LeBron, you would’ve tried to discredit them. But this isn’t a Kobe/LeBron discussion. It’s LeBron/MJ. Your blind love for Kobe has clearly clouded your thinking. A lot of people don’t talk about Duncan because of not only how quiet his game is, but how he carries himself off the court. But his career speaks for itself.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    Seed isn’t going to answer that, Allen…

  • Drig

    Anyways, for the record, before everyone starts killing me for being a blind Kobe fan……MJ’s the best SG. Kobe’s top 10 All-Time. I’d not mind taking Kobe and skipping on MJ if I could take Hakeem/Magic instead of any other combo. I don’t mind it a lot when guys say TD had a better career than Kobe. Also, I know Kobe was fortunate to be able to play on good teams for the majority of his career and the fact that he, just like MJ and every other player who repeated or 3peated, needed solid help to win. Shaq was the man for the 1st title. He owned every team in the NBA Finals like it was nobody’s business. Kobe was on par with Shaq impact wise for the runs except in the first title. Kobe IMO is the most skilled player ever. Kobe also IMO is an idiot with his shooting tendencies and a bit unlucky with the makeup of the team he had.

  • http://www.fullc0urtpress.com KHOLIDAY

    I think ppl take for granted what Jordan did. There may be players that could be better than Jordan, but there will never be a player that did the things Jordan did! 10 consecutive scoring titles!!! 6 time NBA Finals MVP!! 60+ in a playoff game!! Cmon! He’s an international icon and the face of a game that has produced many memorable players and moments. Lebron has the potential to be one of the greatest just like any other great player, but there will NEVER be another Michael Jordan.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Selwyn
    LeBron also had some classic games against the Magic back in the day too.
    Drig
    Kobe got doubled when he was hot. Everyone gets doubled when they were hot. Shaq was doubled the entire game non-stop. You said Kobe got doubled just as much as Shaq during the Lakers second title run. That is not true, I just wanted to make that clear.
    Shaq was an unstoppable force that changed entire defensive schemes. Kobe was one of the best wing players in the game. It was clear who had more impact and who was the “better” player when you discuss impact. Of course Kobe had more “skills” but basketball isn’t just about the accumulation of skills.

  • Dagger

    Blenheim is talking about player talent/quality, not career accomplishments. How is that so hard to understand?

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    I’d say Kobe deciding not to shoot in a playoff series is worse than LeBron disappearing in that infamous Game 5 against Boston and in the Finals last season. Kobe also decided not to shoot in a regular season game to prove some kind of point. People need to remember that when comparing him to Jordan. LeBron wasn’t aggressive, but he at least shot the ball during those disappearances.

  • Drig

    @AllenP……I meant he needed Pippen to become a star before he started winning rings. Lamar Odom was the least consistent guy on that team. On a few days, he looked like he was fringe all-star. On most days atleast for that season, he looked like a role player. Esp. that season in ’05. He improved a bit in ’06 and by ’07, he was a consistent enough 2nd option for Kobe yes. Kobe ain’t like LBJ. I’ll give you that as far making teammates better goes but I wonder how much even guys like Nash or CP3 can make Smush Parker, Chris Mihm, Kwame Brown and the ilk look good. I can’t fathom them becoming solid role players even with those guys tbh.

  • Buyout

    It’s so hard to compare especially since there was no zone defense then…

  • Jer dawg

    Boeheim can suck it! He hid his child molesting assistant coach for decades and he is all defiant about it. Who gives a flying rats ass about him. Lebron IS more versatile because of his size. But is he better than Jordan? Of course he ISN’T. He’s playing better than Kobe NOW, but even Kobe in his prime he was a bitch to defend.
    Jordan and Bryant cut defenders up. Lebron picks and chooses his spots to attack. More versatile? Yes. Better? I don’t think so, Boeheim you prick.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    @Allenp
    Kobe had Smush-sg as pg, Walton, Odom and Kwame Brown and you state that team is good. WOW
    Also Suns had way better pieces. Lakers should have never been up 3-1. Suns had Bell, Marion and shooters. WOW
    Do you watch basketball, seriously and sports writers can get insight.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    Like on first take today. Skip and Stephen A. have watched basketball up close, talk to players, were beat writers. Can talk to management and they stated they would take a Prime Kobe over a Prime Lebron. Stated its not even close. SHOULD I BELIEVE YOU ARE SOMEBODY WHO CAN TALK TO NBA PLAYERS AND LEGENDS, MANAGEMENT ABOUT THINGS. SOMETIMES PEOPLE KNOW MORE THAN US, AND THIS SITE HATES THE FACTS, LIKE KOBE WASD PLAYER OF THE DECADE BY EVERYONE IN THE WORLD, EXCEPT SLAM COMMENTERS,LOL, See people look from glasses that are not real, Kobe can Ball his but off. Lebron don’t have that man. MJ knows this, read his quote and THE BOOK. Also once you read Phil Jackson’s new book he is working on, some of you all’s view of Kobe will change and realize the boy can play. Its hate because you all’s precious MJ is being challenged. Just give Kobe credit, MJ does!!!

  • Waskito

    Kobe won’t like it at all

  • Mike

    Who cares?!?

  • Drig

    @ByAnyMeansNecessary……….Yes. Kobe took off 1-2 games a season to make a point. He still does it at times lol. So………what does that have to do with Jordan??? That’s like saying people need to remember that Jordan walked away from the Bulls organization and was the reason they couldn’t win 1 or 2 more titles which hurt the team and the organization. That’s BS right?! Even the most insane MJ hater wouldn’t diss MJ for doing what he did. Kobe was KILLED on air so many times during those years when LAL lost many a game and Kobe attempted shots. So, he DID stop shooting for 1-2 games during the season to put everything in perspective. And fair enough, he did it vs teams against which he had no chance during the regular season. Now, Kobe deciding not to shoot in the POs vs teh Suns in game 7………..help me out here but did Phil call Kobe out like he did in ’04 for that loss???? If he did, help me out and get me the link. If he didn’t, I don’t see why I should bother when the best coach didn’t find a problem with his method.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Skip Bayless has never covered basketball as a reporter. EVER. I doubt he’s been in an NBA locker room a dozen times in the past 20 years.
    Stephen A. Smith did cover the NBA. He is welcome to his opinion and I respect that he knows about basketball somewhat. But, I disagree with him.
    Jordan said Kobe was the closest to him as far as style of play.
    LeBron doesn’t play like Jordan. Never has.
    Seed, you can talk to players. Create a blog covering your local basketball team. Become good at writing. Establish a connection with your NBA franchise. Manage to get a media pass. People all over the country have done this.
    Journalists do not have some special ability to understand basketball. Some are very good at it, others are not.
    Prime Kobe couldn’t win 50 games with the collection of bums LeBron took to the Finals.
    You know this, I know this, the world knows this. You can pretend otherwise if you like, but we all know that truth.
    Let’s all be honest for one second. If you had to pick a player to beat the Suns in those two series with that team Kobe had, would you pick LeBron or Kobe?

  • IGGI

    ByAnyMeansNecessary—-Well said. What’s better a mix of Jordan and Magic or just jordan or Kobe??? I played better then Kobe on my first 3 year of local pick-up games.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    We know someone is out of hand when they’re using caps. It’s not that serious. “Kobe can Ball his butt off. Lebron don’t have that man.” Right, which is why he didn’t “Ball his butt off” in Boston in Game 6. Or in Indiana in Game 4. Or throughout the Finals. Or in Detroit in 07. Or against Orlando in 09 in the ECF even though they lost. “See people look from glasses that are not real”…What does that mean exactly? Probably not a good idea to talk down to SLAM commenters when you’re one of them. Again, sports writers watch the same games we watch.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Drig
    You don’t believe Kobe quit against the Suns? Like, you really don’t believe that happened?
    Do you believe he pouted during games against the Kings in 2004? That happened too, and he refused to shoot then as well.
    He has about 3 or 4 instances of doing it over the course of his career.

  • Drig

    WAIT A SECOND……….A SURVEY WAS CONDUCTED AND PRIME KOBE WAS TAKEN OVER PRIME LBJ???? SO ALL TEAMS WOULD TAKE A BETTER VERSION OF THIS YEAR’S DURANT OVER THIS YEAR’S LBJ?? A significant number of teams I could understand……Enough teams/players/beat writers to make it not even close?!?! That’s something even I wouldn’t say lol……

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    I hope you don’t expect cats on here to take your opinions seriously by quoting Skip Bayless and Stephen A Smith.
    Philo, there is nothing debatable about TD being the best since MJ. Undefeated in 4 Final Apperances, 3 out of 4 Finals he was the MVP, defensive juggernaut from the first time he stepped foot on an NBA court and the Spurs have been contenders damn never every single season since drafting TD.

  • luv2ball

    Cocaine is a helluva drug Mr. Boeheim.

    As a kid who grew up in the MJ era, no one will ever be greater than MJ; I don’t care what stats they have. MJ took the popularity of basketball (and the NBA) that Magic and Larry began and took it to another level. He was the first player to have his own shoe; his shoes still sell out and cause riots to this day. He is the reason the NBA has huge TV deals, and that players are making so much money. MJ stopped surefire HOF’ers from getting championships in the 90′s. I’ll go as far as to say that if he hadn’t retired the Bulls would have broken the Celtics record for championships in a row. There will never be another MJ, he is the GOAT. It is unfair to compare anyone to him. I love LBJ, but MJ to me will always be the GOAT.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    I wouldn’t compare Jordan’s first retirement to Kobe trying to prove a point by not shooting. Jordan’s father got murdered which caused him to evaluate his life and decide to follow one of his father’s dreams for him. Kobe just decided not to shoot at the expense of his team. Regardless of who it was against, I never saw Jordan try to prove a point. Let us not forget that people also felt Jordan was selfish and was just a scorer who couldn’t win. The same criticism Kobe got once Shaq left.
    It’s obvious what Skip Bayless’ deal is. I wouldn’t mention him as an analyst or a sports writer because he is now just a talking head. Nothing more. No authority on any sport. Just talks. Stephen A. has credentials. But again, he just has his opinion like the rest of us. There is no game that he watches that none of us can watch.

  • Drig

    @AllenP………He pouted during games vs Kings in ’04. Agreed. Kobe should’ve taken more shots yes but I don’t remember Phil criticizing him for that series. Let me put it this way, I also don’t think LBJ also quit on the team vs Boston because MikeB said as far as I remember that he had no problem with LBJ’s game. Do you consider that quitting? If so, I can see why you consider that Kobe quit.

  • Audie

    MJ is a beast… but LBJ is still rising. Check it at the end of his career

  • http://nba.com GP23

    I knew Kobe would somehow be in this discussion for whatever reason..lol.
    Anyway, about what Jim said. LeBron is incredible, a phenom, but…..
    Now, I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again.
    Michael Jordan became who he was not only due to his talent and desire, but also because of his immaculate timing. He arrived on the scene when sports media and marketing were still in their developmental stages, and used his business acumen to establish himself as a force in the market. This was on top of being the best basketball player on the planet. There will never be another MJ, because not only would a player have to match his on court accomplishments, they would also have to completely revolutionize the way the sport is viewed and marketed. Its tough to be the guy who has to follow that act.

  • Drig

    I meant Phil not criticizing vs the Suns. @ByAnyMeansNecessary…….yes. I do know that. Which is why I called it BS. What I was trying to say was Kobe was mad ( rightfully so ) during that period and did take off 1-2 games every season to make a point. I don’t remember MJ’s early years ( I didn’t even know MJ played PG for a 8-10 game stretch in his 2nd/3rd year till nbk pointed that out ) but I have a hard time believing that the sort of crap he had to face was on Kobe’s level as far as dissecting his game goes and if he did, I have a hard time believing that he didn’t shoot at times during games as well or tried to make a point in other ways about how bad the Bulls were………I just don’t think it’s possible lol……

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    My guess is that Boeheim was talking strictly about on the court. Not impact. Or marketing. On the court, will LeBron be a better player or as good a player as Jordan. That’s the discussion.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I think Bron quite in Game 5. I really do.
    I don’t think LeBron is perfect. I just think that Kobe has only done one thing better than LeBron his entire career, and Kobe doesn’t even do that thing more efficiently.
    And neither of them is at Jordan’s level yet.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jordan got angry at teammates and was generally very difficult to play with from all accounts.
    At times he took fewer shots at the urging of Phil Jackson. Myles Brown says that Jordan quit a few times against the Pistons when Pippen didn’t come to play and it was obvious the Bulls weren’t going to win. I would have to check the tape on those series.
    That’s just for historical perspective.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    MJ’s marketability and success off the court is the icing on the cake but MJ wouldn’t be as popular and worshipped today if he did not go out there and dominate the game like no one has since Wilt and to do that as a SG makes it even more impressive. All the talk before MJ won a championship was about having a dominant big was the only way to win championships and how dominant scores will never lead a team to a championship. Not only did MJ prove all of that wrong, he went out there and did it in resounding fashion.
    His unparraled on-the-court dominance (especially in the Playoffs and Finals) alone makes him the GOAT in most people’s eyes (not in mine though, KAJ is)

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    JTaylor
    It’s always funny when you pick KAJ since I know you have only seen him play on a few grainy videos.

  • Rik Smits Mullet

    ahhhh man @the seed did he really quote Skip Bayless.

    High fives @Allenp @ Aug.15 at 11:23 am

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    What about Quotes from David Stern and Phil Jackson,

    Phil Jackson, who knows both players better then anybody on the planet, having coached both of them to each of their NBA championship’s, had this to say:

    “I wouldn’t compare them,” said Jackson, who coached both. “I think Kobe’s as good as Michael.”

    Commissioner David Stern even came out publically this week to talk about the Kobe and Jordan debate:

    “If [Kobe] wins another championship they are going to have the same number aren’t they?…MVP’s depend on a bunch of media guys…[Kobe and Jordan belong in the same conversation] “

    No matter what Bryant does there will never be a unanimous thought across the basketball world that he is better, or on the same level as Jordan. However, when Kobe retires from the league, don’t be surprised if the debate becomes “Who’s the next Kobe?”

    If it hasn’t already started.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Phil Jackson said Kobe should never be compared to Jordan on another occasion. He actually said it was unfair to Kobe.
    He also said that Kobe used to do stupid stuff in the game to make things more difficult.
    Do we believe these things are true?
    And no one is going to be looking for the next Kobe because we have LeBron and Durant.
    Real talk.

  • http://slamonline.com gab

    Giving Skip Bayless any credibility automatically makes you lose credibility…

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Commissioner David Stern even came out publically this week to talk about the Kobe and Jordan debate: “If [Kobe] wins another championship they are going to have the same number aren’t they?…MVP’s depend on a bunch of media guys…[Kobe and Jordan belong in the same conversation]

  • Selwyn ( UK )

    Take into account every “thing” and every possible factor. The team stats, the individual stats, the impact on a particular game(s), the impact on the game of basketball itself, the killer / classic games, the highest level of competition 1984 to 1998, the often reported desire to win at anything (golf / cards ), the players that followed that were unfairly pushed to be the “next” ( Stack, V.C , Grant Hill ). Put all these together and its Jordan for now and always.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    The same way people that never saw him play live still regard Wilt to be the GOAT. Stats and hearsay are the only resources we can go by when ranking/judging players from the 50s/60s/early-mid 70s.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Also, I have come to believe that a dominant big is more valuable than a dominant perimeter player.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    @Allenp
    Phil stated it was unfair to compare them, DUH, but please listen to everything, at the end of the quote its states what cat, Real Talk, “I think Kobe’s as good as Michael. Yea Kobe has done dumb stuff, but MJ has too in games. I watched them. So who cares. Also what do you think about David Stern who is the NBA Commissioner putting MJ and Kobe in the same conversation and calling the MVP’s a bunch of media guys trophies. Your thoughts please?

  • http://www.slamonline.com flea

    So..

    Shawn Marion,Tim Thomas,Boris Diaw,Raja Bell,James Jones, Leandro Barbosa,Eddie House

    is: “slightlly more talent”? Than…

    Lamar ododm, Kwame Brown, luke Walton, Smush Parker, Brian Cook, Sasha Vujacic, Devean George, Ronny Turiaf ????

    And none of the “experts” that make arguments based on “facts” instaed of bias are going to call Allenp out on that BS? Thought so.

    the real difference was that they system used, and the Nash maximized that talent.

    So this series was about “maximizing talent huh? Thats some very creative revisionist history. The Suns were HEAVILY favored to win that series, despite Kobe being the best player in the leauge, in the peak of his prime, NO ONE in the sports media was picking the Lakers to win much less compete. But dont let history and the facts get in the way… So Allen who “lead” this pathetic young excuse for and NBA team to a 3-1 lead? it could’nt have been #8 since as you put it, “he never maximzed the talent” gtfoh.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Also I stated what Skip said and Stephen A. stated. Sometimes they are right and wrong. Alot of yall are too. Who cares, Skip is a talking head like every sports radio and sports show on TV. Everybody has an agenda, but the question is does, Phil statement and David Stern statements have an agenda.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Seed, this is for you, from 2011. Phil Jackson says:
    “Kobe has patterned himself after Michael, and there are a lot of identical things there, but it’s one thing to hope to be like him, it’s another thing to be like him….

    “I’m with [ESPN's] Bill Simmons on this,” he says. “We have to take Michael Jordan out of the equation. Stop comparing anyone to Michael Jordan. It’s just not fair. He was remarkable. Kobe’s in his own sphere.

    “He doesn’t shoot the same percentage [.455] as Michael [.497]. He has the same characteristics as Michael, but he’s not the same player. It takes nothing away from him — he’s a great player in his own right.”

  • https://www.google.com/search?q=phil+jackson+kobe+vs+jordan&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a Allenp

    And if you click on my name you can get to the Google search and read all the quotations you would like to read from Phil about Kobe and Jordan.

  • Drig

    @AllenP…..thanks for that. Now that’s more in line with what I was expecting if he faced the kind of heat Kobe did too. Also, I’m content with Kobe being more skilled than Jordan. Doesn’t mean he’s better production wise but I’ll be happy with that. BTW, just for kicks, who would you guys select when your team needs a SG scorer : Durant or Kobe?( both are 23 years )

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    Allen I showed that quote to seed like 2 days ago. Don’t expect it to accomplish anything.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    If Kobe is as great and dominant as a majority of his fans believe he never would have lost that 3-1 lead. Not only did his team lose such a commanding series lead, he quit on them during that Gm7. It’s not like he lost to an all-time great team, it was the Suns led by one of the most overrated/least criticized stars of all-time.

  • Da-Meat-Hook

    Gman, that’s my point. Jordan had the luxury of having Pippen and as you mentioned even Harper switch off of the opposing team’s toughest defensive assignments. This allowed MJ to pick his spots on defense. Lebron is consistently taking on the opposing team’s biggest threat/mismatch be it Pierce, Rondo, or KG or DRose/Deng in the same game.

  • steve

    I’m just glad to see that AllenP is up and running after dupelupe “layeth the smacketh DOWN” yesterday haha! Way to hang in there Allen!!

  • Conor

    I respect players’ opinions more than any other. James will be amongst the top ten by the time he’s completed his prime, but my own eyes & the opinions of the historic upper hierarchy of players have seen Kobe as the closest to Jordan. Including Jordan.
    .
    One coach’s opinion is just that. As is mine. But former players’ evaluations mean infinitely more to the game.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    Let’s just make sure everyone realizes, Kobe has never affected games the way LeBron did this year. At any point. That’s why everyone is saying Bron is the best wing since J

  • blackthought

    another mj discussion… start this when u got 6 rings, and a hand full of mvps 2 prove it (also the later one is within reach)!lbj is far more magic then michael;besides with 3 sec on the clock the ball would still go to dwade. it`s another era, but the defence the piston & knicks threw @ michael, everybody would be bitchin`and cryin`2 the ref!and since lbj left his hometown team, the discussion for goat is over 4 the king!(greatest of his era – no dought.)…and he doesn`t poccess the same desire 2 win at all costs (the flew game anyone..)!

  • LA Huey

    LOL. No thanks. Instead discussing the 3 of MJ/Kobe/LBJ, you’re welcome to join the 3-on-3 in Rio.

  • Drig

    @JT21…….seriously? In game 6, Kobe was ON FIRE and scored 40-50 points or something and had a superb overall EFFICIENT game and still lost. In game 5, Kobe was again crazy efficient and scored 30 points. We lost those games because of bad TOs AND LAL being unable to defend. Game 7 is something that is left to what people feel about Kobe. Kobe played in a similar way in game 1 that series and LAL won. They lost in game 7. Simple.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    FLEA
    The Suns were widely believe to be headed for the scrap heap with Amare missing the entire season. The fact that they won 54 games without Amare, with the second and third best players being Marion and Diaw, is why Nash won MVP. The logic was that since he had better numbers with lesser talen and lost eight more games he deserves to be MVP.
    I said the Suns had better talent. But, is that because the players were just that much better, or because the Suns’ system took advantage of their talents and Nash helped them succeed?
    Boris Diaw and Tim Thomas are prime examples. Both players had poor reputations at that point. Thomas because he refused to work hard, and Diaw because in several years at Atlanta he refused to shoot and seemed to have no discernible position. In two years in Atlanta, Diaw had never averaged five points, but then he moves to Phoenix in a contract year and drops 13 a game.
    You want an interesting statistic. The Phoenix Suns had 7 players who averaged 9 or more shots per game. The Lakers had three. The highest shot per game average on the Suns was Shawn Marion at 17 per game. Nash was second at 14 per game. In comparison, Kobe took 27 SHOTS PER GAME! The next highest per game average was Lamar Odom at 11!
    So yes, the Suns had better talent, but it wasn’t an extreme talent differential. The difference was in how the talent was used. Lamar Odom deserved more than 11 shots. In addition, the Lakers were up 3-1 because Odom was ABUSING the Suns inside with his superior size and height. No one on the Suns team could match up with him. Odom increased his scoring average to 19 a game with 11 boards on 50 percent shooting in that series. Kobe was very good as well, but he also refused to stick with the plan. The Lakers three wins came in games where Odom and Kobe shouldered the load, while the subsequent losses after going up 3-1 came when Kobe switched into hero mode. And it wasn’t because Odom faded, Odome was shockingly consistent the entire series despite rarely getting more than 14 shots.

  • Drig

    @nbk……….fair enough…..

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    @The Seed
    When did Phil make that statement about Kobe being as good as Michael? An interview? Book? Article? Need proof.

  • pposse

    someone please explain to me why a coach would ever call his superstar player out after they just lost a series in the playoffs? If phil jackson had any problem (which i am positive he did) with Kobe shooting just 2 times in the second half of game 7 against the suns he would have told it directly to kobe’s face off camera smh..Kobe didn’t shoot the whole second half of game 7, what makes you guys think that he would be able to handle any type of critisicm from Phil Jackson after that? Phil knows that, I know that, yall should know that too. When did Lebron ever get called out by Mike Brown or Spo? Did Spo say anything about lebron’s lack of aggression against the mavs? No, thats just a dumb move for a coach.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    And to be clear, I was ROOTING FOR KOBE in that series because I was pissed that Nash had just won another MVP and Kobe and LeBron had been shorted.
    And watching the series, what became obvious was that even as good as Kobe was, and no one else has matched that level as a pure offensive talent since Jordan, he refused to let anyone else shine once he decided he was the man. He would not trust his teammates even though Odom was destroying the Suns.
    It pissed me off because I desperately wanted them to beat the Suns that year. I cannot fully express how much I wanted the Suns to lose.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    As far as best player since Jordan? That’s still Shaq bruh

  • lakeshow

    the seed is in kobe

  • pposse

    @flea when your up 3-1 and you lose its a dispointment and a failure on that teams part. You have three games to win just one of them, any playoff caliber team should be able to win 1 game out of every 3 played. And that Suns team which you think were uber talented, lost to the lame Clippers in the next round..they lost to old ass sam cassell cmon now..

  • Drig

    @AllenP……..so it wasn’t because both teams couldn’t defend and Suns simply had more tools to attack with?? Because I remember both those teams shooting lights out back in the day……Also, regarding the number of shots, Kobe didn’t take MORE THAN 20 SHOTS FOR ANY GAME OTHER THAN GAME 1 and GAME 6 ( when he was on fire ). Luke, Smush, Kwame and Sasha took a sizeable chunk of the shots as well and Kwame was actually a bit decent before he faded that series. It wasn’t Kobe playing hero ball that lost LAL the games. It was LAL’s inability to defend and turnovers.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    Shaq was the most dominant, but that’s mainly because of his size. Skill and talent are a different thing. That’s not Shaq. That’s Duncan and then Kobe. Shaq wasn’t the best player on those Lakers championship teams but he was the most dominant because there was no answer for him. He was too big and strong.

  • pposse

    im with NBK on this, shaq was the best player since MJ still..Lebron is creeping up real fast tho..i believe when it is all said and done Lebron has the talent (we will see about the hardware) to be considered the second best ever

  • Da-Meat-Hook

    I agree that a player’s opinion offers great insight, especially that of a teammate. That being said, didn’t Scottie mention that Lebron has the potential to be GOAT??

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    Kobe nor Lebron will be better because they could never make you feel a part of the moment like Jordan did. You remembered where and when you were watching him take over a game. He had that aura of capitation with mystique and grace. He wasn’t human on that tv screen with about 13 channels.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    Losing a 3-1 series lead is a team thing, yes, but if you’re the best player in the world, you have 3 tries to beat a team and don’t get it done? The majority of the blame belongs on your shoulders. Kobe hit that game winning shot in LA and I thought they would soon be headed to the 2nd round. Kobe was on TNT after they got eliminated talking to the guys about not shooting the ball. Barkley pressed him. Kobe gave an answer about the system they were trying to run and what the team was trying to do. At a certain point, if you’re the best player, you can tell the coach to let you do what you do in at least one game to win the series. Plus, how many times before that had Kobe gone away from the system? Not a great explanation for him to give. Just one game. The Lakers should have won that series. Period.

  • Drig

    @pposse……the Clips were actually pretty good that year. As a Laker fan, after going 3-1 up, I was worried we’d be losing to the clips in the next round since the role players playing above their ability in two consecutive rounds would have the same probability of Kwame becoming Shaq. Also, could you explain to me why sweeps even happen??? Were the 2012 Mavs not a playoff caliber team? Or the 2011 Lakers???

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    Also agree with Allen’s point, nobody will be worrying about who the next Kobe will be because we’ve already moved on to Lebron and KD. Kobe is stupid, he should’ve retired earlier, now he just gets dominated by Lebron and KD while we stare at him missing shots all day in the Olympics.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Dagger

    Compared to prime Jordan, Lebron is a much more efficient scorer. He’s a better and more willing passer, especially out of double teams, and his court vision is on another level. He’s a superior (defensive) rebounder, and a better defender. Perhaps the most versatile two-way player in league history, he can play PF on one position and PG the next at the highest level. Kobe was one of the most skilled scorers in the history of the game, yet his belief in his own abilities also encouraged him to attempt the impossible against double or triple teams. Hence his efficiency as a shooter was often barely acceptable for an elite scorer. He was an underrated offensive rebounder, a capable passer when he wanted to be, and a very good individual defender. His clutch reputation was overrated, but he could certainly perform when it counted. Statistically he didn’t raise the level of his game in the playoffs, let alone in the finals, and his production/efficiency never approached that of Lebron or MJ in their peak years. Lebron at age 27 is a better player than Kobe ever was. Not a more skilled scorer, but, overall, indisputably better.

  • http://www.nba.com/knicks danpowers

    yes scottie pippen said jordan was the greatest scorer to ever play the game but lebron james might be the best player of all time. pippen said james could dominate games on offense and defense plus that every player on the court is a threat to score when james is on the court. seems like pippen smoked the same crack. it would take too much time to explain why this is simply not true so its easier to point out jordans assist totals, defensive numbers and defensive team honors and championship / playoff game sealing assists that lead to buzzer beaters in these great games. jordan was the same overall player too with just a body a little smaller than james but he made up for that with a scoring ability and killer instinct that surpasses lebrons way more than lebrons other abilities surpass jordans.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    Captivation*

  • Drig

    @Redd…….wait a few years. Nostalgia is gonna make you feel the same about Kobe and LBJ down the line.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Man, Odom should have gotten 20+ shots per game that series. And he was posting up aggressively looking for his shot. Kobe was on fire at times but the winning bet when you have an obvious advantage inside is to go inside, particularly when your inside player is also the team’s leading assist man.
    And Kobe shot 21 in Game One, he shot 24 in Game 2 and he shot 35 in Game 6. Do you realize Odom was shooting 75 percent in Game 2 and only got 12 shots?
    I remember this series so clearly, Kobe was unstoppable, but so was Odom. Feed the post, get your big man going, it makes the game easier for all of your inferior teammates. Why has this been so hard for Kobe to accept his entire career?

  • http://www.reverbnation.com/tray24 T-Ray

    Cosign Redd MJ was just so dynamic and really demanded your attention and has so many memorable moments. Not saying KB and Bron don’t have moments of their own but not like MJ.

  • pposse

    i wasn’t watching bball in the 80s but i thought MJ had no respect at all for Pippen back then. He thought he was soft etc etc. As great a player as Pippen was, do you guys really think that the would have been the same player that we know today if he was not drafted to the Bulls and had a chance to play with the great one every day? MJ has a hand in grooming Pip to be the player that he is. You can call it unfair, but normally when you play with the best, you get tougher, better, your mental approach to the game changes, confidence increases. Where does Pip even rank all time as far as best players go? If he is outside of the top 20 then there should never be a discussion on the superior talent that MJ played with thruout his career. Even Pip said in the Dream Team documentary that he was surprised to be named on the team.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    @Redd I think the word you’re looking for may be “captivation”. This isn’t about moments. It’s simply about how they play. It’s not about commercials or anything else other than how they play. How often have people talked about how big LeBron is and how he’s still the fastest player from end to end in basketball? Or how strong his dunks are? Or his court vision and the passes he makes? Or the blocked shots from behind? I’d say those things excite people.
    @Da-Meat-Hook Yes, Scottie did say that about LeBron and everyone clowned him for it. Who knew more about Michael’s game than Scottie Pippen?

  • Drig

    @ByAnyMeansNecessary………..exactly what more was Kobe supposed to do according to you that series? He was crazy efficient by his standards, he shot Jordanesque almost every freaking game. He trusted his teammates to make their shots. In a nutshell, he played like LBJ did for 5 and a half games ( since you consider he quit the 2nd half ). And LAL lost 2 and a half of them…….At what point do you look past it and realize that Suns had the better team esp. when you realize both had crappy defense??? Hell, in game 6 that series, Kobe had the sort of game LBJ had in game 7 vs the Celtics and LAL still lost. Honestly…..

  • jerico

    i dont remember PJ calling MJ Uncoachable and threaten to leave if KB was still there,p

  • http://www.slamonline.com Dagger

    Prime Kobe, I mean.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Jordan was one of the most efficient scorers of all time early in his career. Let’s not get things twisted. He had WAY more seasons over 50 percent shooting than LeBron. It’s not even close.

  • pposse

    being up 3-1 is a lot different than being down 0-3 (laydown) or even being down 0-2. What is more likely to happen in a playoff series a sweep or losing a series when you are up 3-1? I don’t remember a team losing a 3-1 lead in a series since PHX LA. I’m probably wrong and it probably happened since then. i do remember a whole bunch of sweeps. To me sweeps are unacceptable too, especially if your seeding is not 8, and it should detract a little from the captain or leaders legacy, but most won’t agree with that.

  • Drig

    @AllenP….just looked at the stats. In game 2, almost the entire team shot at 50%. Also, look at how many shots the rest of the players sans Kobe and Odom combined for. I get it that Odom should’ve gotten a few more attempts and Kobe should’ve taken less but that’s nitpicking a pretty stellar line from Kobe.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    @drig no it won’t. Cause when watching Jordan live we had that awe and appreciation for what he’s doing. Heck my mom who just came from a village and who didn’t know English or about basketball would always want to watch Jordan! After he left she stopped caring! That just proves the point.

  • pposse

    Redd nobody here unless they are from Chicago or a Bulls fan in general will fully understand what you said. They think they kno, but they have no idea!

  • http://www.slamonline.com flea

    taylor, great argument. If Kobe was as great as people say he is than…
    He would’nt have played his @ss off in game 6 hitting 2 clutch shots in crunch time to give his team the lead, while basically single handedly winning that series…. before WAIT…Kwame Brown blew the game and the series?

    Your right, kobe failed. He should have suceeded where MJ failed the great Kwame Brown.

  • http://www.reverbnation.com/tray24 T-Ray

    Kobe shouldn’t get all the blame for that series against PHX. That’s just a team collapse when you lose 3 straight after being up 3-1 which is seen as a “commanding” leading to a majority of hoop fans.

  • http://stapledesign.com Spaceship Jay

    Lebron isn’t touching Mike either, ever. Defense; 3× NBA steals champion (1988, 1990, 1993), NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988). Lebron has become a tremendous player. But the play by MJ on both sides of the floor is incomparable.

  • Drig

    @Redd…….I know a few of my friends’ whose parents feel the same way about Kobe…….your point being??? What you’re claiming is from your perspective. The huge pops Kobe still receives compared to LBJ and other better superstars proves my point that nostalgia and nearing to the end of a legendary player’s career makes you appreciate him a lot more. The Kobe of ’06 despite being much more skilled would’ve hardly gotten the sort of support this Kobe gets all over the world even if he just came off a 3-peat.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Drig
    I know it seems like nitpicking. But, that’s why I posted that comment about rooting for the Lakers. I wanted the Lakers to win desperately, and while I felt like the other players were bums, I thought the Lakers had a decent chance if Kobe would just get Odom more shots.
    He wouldn’t do it.
    All shots and scoring is not created equal. Post scoring creates incredible value because of the foul trouble it creates, the rotation issues it creates and it’s demoralizing nature.
    That’s why people want LeBron on the block. When you dominate from there, it opens up the entire floor and creates opportunities for lesser players to shine. Jordan moved to the block not just because of his age, but because it made the entire team better. Kobe was KILLING that series, no doubt, but the Lakers had a better shot against a horrible defensive team in Phoenix if Odom killed because his play created looks for others. Look at how he increased his scoring average AND maintained the same assist numbers while being more efficient. Now consider those facts with more shots.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    And it wasn’t all on Kobe, Odom also was somewhat post averse at time. But Kobe is the leader and could have put him on the block. I really believe this man.

  • pposse

    if winning is the ultimate criteria for judging a player, then there is no way Lebron can be better than MJ, especially after losing in his prime to the Dallas Mavericks. Hell, Lebron didn’t even check Dirk himself that series which doesn’t make any sense at all bc Lebron was considered the best defender on the team and more than capable of guarding 4′s. He shyed away from the moment that year, and that shouldn’t just be swept under the rug. And i also would like to add post the first lakers dynasty with Shaq the NBA has become a ‘friends’ league. Everyone and their mother has gotten a ring in these past ten years. Lebron failed to stop Dirk and Jason Kidd to get a ring. He stopped KD once, but will it happen again and again? WE will see…Kobe didnt stop anyone from getting rings either…MJ stopped EVERYONE from getting rings..Shaq did too (MAJOR part of the reason why he is the best since MJ)

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    And before y’all say Kobe had no help in that series, go back and check out the game logs for Kwame, Smush and Luke. They may have sucked in the regular season when Kobe was jacking shots indiscriminately, but against the Suns, they were solid. Look for yourselves.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    @Drig you’re from LA or your family is clearly Laker fans. That’s only from a Lakers perspective. People around the world felt exactly like that with Jordan. Kobe is not even close to as captivating as Jordan. Especially not while you watch him shooting ugly bricks during the Olympics.

  • Rev

    I watched the Suns vs Lakers playoff game and Kobe refused to shoot Period! That was based on comments from critics. Lebron in the Boston series was double and triple teamed so he passed it to open players. Unfortunately, there were no good players on Cleveland and that’s why he left. LBJ made most of the careers on the Cleveland team. Boobie Gobson got a nice contract, mo became an allstar….etc! Based on just raw ability, Lebron is a freak unlike any player yet. How can someone that large be that fast, strong and athletic? I admire MJ and Kobe but they just don’t compare physically. Plus, Lebron took the scrub Cavs to the finals on his back. Neither Kobe nor MJ ever did that without help.

  • http://www.slamonline.com flea

    Allen, I did’nt inquire as to the Suns playoff projections at the beginnig or the middle of the season.. refering to that series, are you trying to tell me that at that point,heading into that series, that the SUNS? were the team Stuart Scott, Stephen A, Joe blow and evey other NBA commentator had as the underdog? and that the Lakers were expected to win? Some of these young cats, might not know better, and will take you for your word. But get real im a grown @ss man.

  • Drig

    @Redd………..actually no, I’m not from LA lol. WAAAAY off the mark. Infact I’m from the other side of the world. And here, esp. in the East, Kobe is looked at like an icon on par with Jordan. Also, I think Kobe played pretty well from the quarters right???

  • pposse

    **phx beat the clippers the next round in 7, but then got whooped on by dallas in the WCF. Even still idc what anyone says that Suns team was NOT that good.

  • http://slamonline.com Wayno

    Drig – Philippines?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I’m telling that the team destroyed all expectation and won 54 games while grabbing a top seed. They were the favorites, but that was based on how well they played all year in direct contradiction to what their talent on paper dictated.
    You don’t have to take my word because you know it’s true. That team exceeded all expectations to become favorites. And it wasn’t because their talent changed during the year, it was because that system and Steve Nash were the perfect combination for helping those players proper.
    Are you arguing that everyone misjudged the talent? If that’s what you’re arguing, then say that? I don’t think was the problem. The talent was properly considered, but sometimes a team is better than its individual parts.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    Exactly, you’re bias. Foreign countries only seem to know the Bulls and Lakers. People outside of USA don’t really know the culture or love it in masses like we do. When Jordan was playing even people who hated the Bulls were in awe of Jordan. That’s my point, Jordan was what Kobe never will be the greatest NBA legend.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    Plus Kobe also will be remembered for getting clocked by Chris Childs.

  • http://www.slamonline.com flea

    Ok P’ you just lost cred in this argument and big up’d Chucky? Chucky Atkins?!!… look at his numbers?..C’mon man! Folks, plain an sipmle sometimes numbers, pedestrian as they may be LIE. yeah having Steve nash on your team will elevate the play of guys like Diaw, and Thomas and on the other hand when CHUCKY ATKINS is your best option at the #1 to set up plays and make players that suck much worse than a Diaw or thomas, well i guess if he can make 3 0r 4 wide open shots he put up GOOD NUMBERS. C’mon Allen. You’re better than this BS.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Where did I mention Chucky Atkins?
    I thought I mentioned Smush, Kwame and Walton.
    Smush was the started at the point.
    Odom averaged 19, 11 and 5 Luke averaged 12, 6 and , Kwame averaged like 12 and 6 and Smush averaged 9 and 3.
    Against a poor defensive team, a smart offensive team moves the ball to get the best shot. Against a small team a smart offensive team pounds the ball inside.
    These are basketball truisms for reason.
    Why would Churcky Atkins be the best option to set people up? Why not Kobe?

  • miagus23

    Anybody wants to place a bet on more than 150 posts? 200? 300?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I’m really puzzled about your diatribe about Chucky Atkins.

  • http://www.reverbnation.com/tray24 T-Ray

    Dude Allen just let it go lol it’s like trying to get a red wine stain out of a cashmere rug.

  • R32

    When LeBron’s career is over, that’s when the comparisons with MJ can start. Until then, the whole world can sit back and witness.

  • Drig

    @Redd………I’ve seen you put Rose on a pedestal and ironically, you call me biased because I just told you how the East views Kobe??? Also, you’d be surprised at how knowledgeable a few guys are even here……Much more than a few of the dumb guys that populate most forums/ comments pages.BTW Redd, how old were you exactly when you watched Jordan play live? Also, how many years has passed since Jordan stopped playing?? Please appear before me if you can on these boards after 4 years after Kobe retires and then tell me you don’t think Kobe made a OMFG move just as regularly as Jordan did. It may sound laughable at first but I’ve seen it happen to many athletes in various sports. Hakeem would be one striking example. For Laker fans, Shaq would be another……

  • Basketball_iQ

    Lbj is getting to that point where you have to consider it… Anyone who doesn’t is a quack & such in the past… Boehiem is a reputable hof head coach, if he’s bringing it up, everyone else is too. He can defend all 5 positions people! And he gets in the lane & makes plays versus guys smaller than him who have the quickness advantage (should)& bands in the paint with trees! C’mon … Its obvious. Malone’s body & power with magic’s playmaking abilities/passing, defense like scottie pippen on your best player (1-4, don’t matter), idk, its at least CLOSE to where its worth the discussion yo.

  • Drig

    Also, if you only remember Kobe for getting clocked by Childs…….well, you probably lived under a rock for the last decade except for Bulls games…….You also probably only remember Shaq for not being able to land a punch on anyone he tried right??? I get it that you love Jordan and all but cut down on the cool aid lol……

  • Drig

    @Wayno…….India….

  • http://gmail.com z

    just gonna say that kobe’s the most polarizing player of all time, no one gets blood flowing like kobe. This was a story about bron and instead all the lebronners turned it into a thread about kobe instead…obsession at it’s purest! For the record, Lebron will never be the scorer mj was or the one on one defender. Everything else, he can match or exceed him in.

  • http://www.slamonline.com flea

    This is why its hard to take allot of the regular commentors on slam seriously. When it comes to ANY other player these threads will be represented by them with mostly logical thought. But not when it comes to one player who has always evoked this bias since day 1. whether it be because he’s not black enough. (you old heads remember that popular narritive) He’s fake. No street cred like the beloved Iverson at the time, he Stoled everything from mike. Can’t win without Shaq. Ok, won without Shaq, but only because of other “BIGS”. As a biased generation grew up and became mnore articulate so did thier arguments.
    this thread is a good example. LBJ underwent this type of scrutiny for exactly 2 seasons ( most of you defended him durring that time). He won once. Apparently that scrutiny is over and his legacy has now leap frogged kobe’s. Now he’s the “best since MJ”
    None of the same critcism about needing 2 allstars to do it. Just un biased respect. thoughtfull arguments using logic rather than bias. You act like your soo much above a cat like seed when he says dumb 5hit about bron or KD…but you ALL do the exact same ish when it comes to kobe Bryant. Real talk.

  • http://www.reverbnation.com/tray24 T-Ray

    Flea
    I think a lot of regulars on here take into that both KB and LeBron needed other stars to get the job done. I don’t think anyone disputes that. I just think people who are totally on Kobe’s side and those on Bron’s side are just too blind to objective opinions and even criticism of the two.

  • Cole

    You can’t knock Kobe for being in his prime and not winning without a big man. He wasn’t playing with a decent team around him. He had Smush Parker, Chris Mihm, Kwame Brown, Vladimir Radmonovic, Sasha Vujajic. All scrubs that kids won’t know who they are in 5 years, and that’s why he demanded a trade. Jordan couldn’t of won with that team either.

  • http://www.slamonline.com flea

    @ P. Good lookin out. Major Brain fart, meant Smush. For all his hype as a street ball legend, all he was really good for was a few open shots. Chucky is another matter completely.

  • http://www.slamonline.com flea

    @ T-Ray: Word up.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I don’t understand why it’s disrespectful to say that Kobe should have gotten Odom more shots.
    Or that Kobe shouldn’t have lost to that Suns team after going up 3-1.
    Didn’t Tracy McGrady get killed for losing to the Detroit Piston after going up 3-1 and his team was worse than Kobe’s?
    I’ve already said Kobe is one of the most skilled players in NBA history. I’ve said he’s the greatest scorer of his generation, and I’ve said he’s the second best two guard of all-time.
    What he’s not is immune to criticism. Dude shoots a lot, and he takes shots he doesn’t have to take. He won his first three rings thanks in large part to the incredibly dominance of Shaq, and yet his fans pretend like he wasn’t second fiddle.
    That is why these long arguments occur. I know exactly who Kobe is as a player and I know where he ranks. I know what’s he’s done and what he’s failed to do.
    Oh, and Kobe got criticized for not being black enough, and he also got championed by Madison Avenue for being the right kind of black. He’s experienced both sides of the coin his entire career. He made the all-star team as a starter averaging 15 points per game and playing as a reserve! People have loved dude since he came into he League and the only thing that really hurt him was Eagle and the Laker implosion.

  • pposse

    if jordan was up 3-1 he would have closed the deal and he would have taken vlad smush and mihm to the next round. A superstar shot twice in the second half of game 7..i still remember chuck basically saying postgame that Kobe was acting real selfish/gave up on his team before the game ended. One day most people who defend Kobe will understand that its mainly Kobe’s attitude over anything that turns people off. Every year i feel like its time to give Kobe his dues, but every year he does something real stupid that just irritates me. Last year it was getting swept in PJ’s final year, this year he kept on ranting about Pau Gasol and it being his fault..then retracting in the summer and saying Pau is a Laker as long as I am one. Dude has attitude problems.

  • miagus23

    @R32, amen…

  • http://www.rich-imaging.com Dutch Rich

    I don’t think there was ever any doubt that LBJ had the tools to eclipse anyone that has ever suited up.
    As Kobe said “LeBron is a freak of nature”.
    I co-sign AllenP @ 10:51, where he says if things break right he could equal or surpass Mike.
    However, things have not broken right for him since he came into the league.
    Deferring to Ricky Buckets his Rookie yr, deferring to Wade 2 yrs ago. The throwing in the towel, etc.
    It took outside factors (Riley, for example, who eagerly takes ownership of this transformation) and many years, to turn him into a winner. The kind of desire that he shows now is something he doesn’t naturally have. I mean, Mike’s battles with big brother Larry were character-defining. Blame Gloria for raising a nice young man instead of a stone cold assasin!
    I’m glad Mitch Kupchak has thrown a monkey wrench into his path to destiny. Let’s see how he deals with losing again. Cant’ wait for the puppet commercials to re-appear.

    btw, LBJ’s entertainment factor is nowhere near Michael’s or Magic’s for that matter. Never will be.
    He is the Ken of basketball players though, the new benchmark, the prototype.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    This should probably go back to the LeBron/MJ debate which is what Boeheim was talking about. Kobe really has no part in this especially now that he’s on the downside of his career. Remove him from it.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    Saying Leabron is the best since MJ is not referring to as a career. It’s referring to at one time. Idk how anyone can really say Kobe was ever as good as LeBron is right now? Kobe has definitely had a better career, and is, as of right now the better player all-time. But at his peak, he never did what LeBron is doing in terms of the affect he has on games and his team winning. There is no bias involved at all.

  • http://www.slamonline.com flea

    T-Ray, not to call out anyone specifically but only for example Dukes like Eboy,Philosopher,Riggs,Teddy,tarzan,NBK,T-Money,Allenp,Taylor Ect, ect..could go on for awhile but you get the point. Theres allot of cats up here that are quick to dismiss popular crticisms of one man while also being quick to shoot them same popular criticisms at another man. It’s like politics…smh.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    There’s only one player in basketball that D-Wade would give his team to…LeBron James. Friends or not, Wade was smart enough to hand the team over to the best player in the world. His words. Wade isn’t a slouch himself. For him to give LeBron his team as a Finals MVP and NBA champion. That says a lot. I wouldn’t say LeBron deferred to Wade. They both were trying to make sure they didn’t step on each other’s toes. I personally don’t care how one gets a winning attitude whether it’s playing and losing against their brother as a kid or having Pat Riley and others teach them. All that matters is if they have it. LeBron has it now. So let’s see how far he goes with it. Tell you this though. If the Finals ends up being Miami and LA and LeBron takes out this Lakers team, I dare any fool to try to act like the LeBron/MJ conversation is out of the question.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    Flea, if you are going to call me out for somethin like that, you should include an example. Or else your just a talking head

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Flea
    What popular criticisms are you talking about man? You are speaking generalities.
    I said Bron was choking when he shat the bed against Dallas. I said he quite in Game 5 against Boston. Hell, I think he only really got “clutch” this year, and even that was shaky at times.
    You are railing against popular criticisms about Kobe even as you don’t dispute that they are true. Lay out for me exactly what you think is unfair about the arguments I’ve made.
    And like I said, are you saying you don’t remember McGrady getting KILLED for losing after going up 3-1 against Detroit? Have you forgotten this episode, or do those rules not apply to Kobe?

  • http://www.reverbnation.com/tray24 T-Ray

    I get you flea but I would call any of those guys out for that. If anything they’re very objective and sometimes they’ll call a spade a spade and also include facts. I’ve seen numerous threads where cats like Eboy, nbk,Allen etc. have bashed LeBron for his past shortcomings and in the same breath nailed Kobe for his. To me certain guys that don’t really comment here on the regular do a lot of what you’re saying. But that’s just my opinion.

  • http://Slamonline.com Black Mamba

    Guys the key word is “could” Kwame Brown “could have been better than Jordan. It’s not impossible

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    Yea but Rose certainly isn’t a Top 5 GOAT and I don’t argue that. I’m a Bulls fan, am I supposed to clown dude? I was old enough to remember clearly and yes Kobe has made “omfg” moves. Most of them are, “OMFG WHY DID YOU SHOOT THAT KOBE U HAD A GUY WIDE OPEN!”. Clearly you guys are not “knowledgeable” fans out East while saying Kobe is equal or better than Jordan.

  • http://www.reverbnation.com/tray24 T-Ray

    Here’s a random question for everyone. We often talk about greatest offensive players of all time but if you were to pick a team of top 5 defensive players who’d you pick?
    Mine is
    1. Stockton
    2. MJ
    3. Scottie
    4. Duncan
    5. Dream

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    I want to start by saying, ya’ll are a bunch of wacko’s.
    One thing: Prime Kobe>>Prime Bron.
    That’s as far as skill, and determination go.
    LeBron is a Shaq like version of Magic/Pippen/Larry Johnson put together.
    LeBron James is not fair.
    His physical stature and uncanny athleticism make him unstoppable. Not his basketball skills. His skills are on par with probably 30 players in the L, but his 260lb frame and crazy hops/strength are what make LeBron what he is.
    I always have liked players that out skill their opponent rather than bulldoze people, or bully ball their way to the rim, so that’s why I have always loved Kobe’s game more than say, Shaq or LeBrons.
    Carry on Gents, i’m gunna finish up these crazy comments.
    Ya’ll are wacko’s.

  • http://www.slamonline.com flea

    Yo Allen, the other day you said Bron was good out the gate but correct me if im wrong, implied that kobe was not. today you make the case that he got more love, than he deserved (97’98 all star tap) He did go out and lead the west in scoring did’nt he? the 15 pts is misleading. How many all star calliber players (or actual all star in Kobe’s case) starters are only getting 25 mins? Old heads remember that Del funky @ss harris was’nt giving young blood allot of shine those first two seasons. Wich brings me back to the point you make about how he came out the jump. As a rook iverson got 39 MPG and the keys… Lebron as well. We all saw the numbers Kobe put up when he became option #1.

  • MUBWAR

    lakeshow 27 lbj is lightyears ahead of 27 Kobe. better passer, better defender, better rebounded, better fg%, better blocker, scores more on less shots, defends every position and runs like deer. your quote: ”His skills are on par with probably 30 players in the L” is blasphemous

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    I’d move Hakeem to 4 and put KAJ at 5 @TRay.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    KD and Lebron are definitely better than Kobe.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    What Lakeshow said is true. LeBron is not more skilled than Kobe. But he’s a better player right now then Kobe has ever been. Just like with Shaq, skills are irrelevant when talking about game impact. If Skills = Greatness then there are numerous people outside of the MBA with elite skillets that should be all-time greats. But skill doesn’t = anything without the physical ability to use them effectively.

  • Da-Meat-Hook

    @ T-Ray, I’d replace Stock for Gary Payton. That’s a solid list, though.

  • pposse

    TRay give me Payton instead of Stockton and I would put Rodman in there over Duncan. Rodman gets volume rebounds which is a part of defense (closing out the possession) and Rodman is the type of guy that will psyche out the other teams PF. He will make you sign a contract to wrestle him at WWE Wrestlemania in the middle of a playoff series. GP the same thing, you gotta have a trash talking defender on the pg.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    Flea, Kobe didn’t become option number 1 till he was 26 years old. You can’t talk like that proves your point. Kobe struggles his first year, as he should have. It doesn’t hurt his legacy, no reason to revise history about it.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    I’m on my phone, autospell is wreaking havoc on my comments

  • http://www.reverbnation.com/tray24 T-Ray

    Can’t go wrong with that either Redd

  • http://www.slamonline.com Dagger

    Why is it that when people talk about “skill” they inevitably refer to a player’s repertoire of scoring moves? There’s so, so much more to the game than that. How much skill does it take to understand how to play 5 different positions on offense and defense? SMH.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    @LakeShow Your name alone lets everyone know who you’re for and against. To say that LeBron James is not fair is completely ridiculous. Also ridiculous is the assertion that his skills are on par with 30 other players. His court vision and passing ability are only shared by the best traditional PGs in basketball (Rondo, CP3, Deron Williams). I could criticize Kobe in the same way you say LeBron just bulldozes people by saying that he takes a lot of shots to get his points. His highest FG% in a season up until this point is 47%. He shot 45% in his highest scoring season. Facts are facts. LeBron’s size can’t be used as a knock against him. It’s who he is.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Flea
    You honestly believe that Kobe’s inability to get minutes and start in his first three years was due primarily to Del Harris?
    You don’t see the issue with Kobe’s physical readiness, his skill development and the fact that Eddie Jones was much, much better initially?
    I forget why I mentioned LeBron dominating out the gate, but I think it was to show that it’s not impossible. Kobe wasn’t LeBron coming out of college because LeBron was more of a physical specimen, and had been preparing for the NBA for three years.
    Plus, Kobe didn’t LeBron’s total floor game. You know this. Kobe is/was a scorer at heart. The Lakers didn’t need those skills initially and until Kobe realized that, he sat the bench.
    Kobe didn’t become option one at 18. It happened in his full blown prime. We saw what Kobe did team wise and stat wise as option one with a poor team. We also saw what LeBron did.
    You judge for yourself homie.

  • pposse

    lakeshow, this is the NBA that we have to deal with nowadays. Without hand checking being the great equalizer for defensive purposes against elite athletes, the elite athlete will/ and should always have the advantage. They can use their advantages right now in the NBA to exploit defenses on the regular. Same reason why D Rose is the best pg in the league same reason why lbj right now the best player in the L, same reason why Dwight the best Center in the league, and a healthy d wade (if there is such a thing) has him contending and or overtaking Kobe as the best SG in the league. The only position where an elite athlete may not be the best at their position is the PF, but Blake Griffin was 2nd team all NBA right, sooner or later an elite athlete will also be the best PF in the game too.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    LeBron came into the league with a lot of skills. Kobe’s greatest skill has always been scoring. He became a great defender. LeBron’s natural skillset is better than Kobe’s. Coach Boeheim said LeBron a mixture of Magic/MJ. Kobe, at his best, was a superior scorer and defender. Never has been a facilitator. LeBron’s skillset allows him to carry teams in a way that Kobe never has been able to. LeBron got Mo Williams into the All-Star game. If you’re going to talk LeBron/Kobe and skillset, it’s clear LeBron has a better skillset than Kobe.

  • ChipS

    I’m surprised a John Salley article hasn’t been posted, after what he said about MJ.

  • http://www.slamonline.com/ The Promise

    @T-Ray: You ever heard of Gary Payton?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    man, i like what BAM wrote.
    however, i think kobe had every skill lebron had, or at least a working knowledge of them. he just chose to do what he wanted to do. son, kobe could do what LeBron does if his mind was ever right. but it never was right like that.

  • pposse

    to an extent lakeshow i agree that Lebron’s skills aren’t superior necessarily but with the body frame he has and the skill set that he does possess makes it pretty damn “unfair” For example, i don’t think LBJ has a good looking jump shot nor is it really that effective…i also don’t know what its like to have 20 inch biceps either. Does anyone with arms as big as his have good form? To me it looks like his bicep gets in the way cause its too big. Same with the footwork, dude is athletic but doesn’t have typical footwork in the post, maybe its because his legs are huge, and can’t move in ways that we all see as elite foot work. At the end of the day the job gets done, W’s, stat sheet etc etc. That should be enough proof that he has excellent skills.

  • http://www.slamonline.com flea

    AP: #1 “Kobe’s only won because of “bigs” popular narritive. Seen you jump on it allot lately. You may or may not have jumped on the “lebron could only win with Wade/Bosh” narritive. But i can’t remeber seeing it. those are 2 examples. Quite often a thread tends to go one way or the other. especially last season, when lebron was getting Kobe like hate. Allot of you cats have shown to be quick to support criticism of one player, while admitting another players faults ocassionally. I probobly should’nt have lumped you in with some of those othwer cats BUT you do tend to support cats like that in the Kobe debate more often than in them same type lebron BS debates. If you dont agree fine. but thats my opinion.

  • riggs

    f*ck no. If kobe shouldnt be compared (and although i dont like dude, he is the closest) Lebron damn sure shouldnt be.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    KD is better than Kobe, just doesn’t have the accolades.

  • http://www.reverbnation.com/tray24 T-Ray

    Yes I have Promise I’ve also heard of having an opinion you seem to have one so I decided to have one too. That being said…Stockton

  • http://www.slamonline.com/ The Promise

    We discuss this MJ/Kobe/LBJ Sh!t every day, but the fact of the matter is, until Lebron and Kobe finish their careers, you can’t compare them to each other or MJ, its not all said and done yet. I will say this, Lebron may have better numbers than Kobe, but you are crazy if you say Lebron has more passion and love for the game than Kobe, if you can say that, I can’t call you a true basketball fan, and deem you a Lebron fan, there is a big difference. When Lebron’s career is done, he may be looked at as the best ever, but I just don’t see him winning 5-6 titles in Miami. I think when its over, Jordan will still be looked at as the best.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    So people think that Kobe could pass as good as LeBron if he put his mind to it? I doubt it, court vision is something that’s developed as a youngin. You can not all of a sudden out of the blue become an elite playmaker. Either you have it or you don’t.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    Oh How I hate when people say Lebron is both MJ’s combined…..He’s a better more improved version of scottie pippen and/or Grant Hill and that’s not disrespectful. His game is just more comparable to what those guys provided on the court.

  • bike

    IMO, the things that LeBron does for a player of his height and weight makes him even more skilled than Kobe. How effective would a 6’9″ 260 lb Kobe be?

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Flea
    Point to a time in Kobe’s career where he had any sort of serious team success without a superior front court.
    Point to a time in LeBron’s career where he had serious team success without Wade and Bosh.
    I’m completely serious.
    From my vantage point, Kobe had team success when he had a superior frontcourt.
    LeBron had team success without Wade and Bosh.
    KObe was an individual beast, but his team success was lacking until he got a very good to great big man.
    I don’t see why this is even a debate to be honest

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    LeBron is not an improved version of Pippen and Grant Hill. That’s disrespectful to him. Grant Hill was great before the injuries and Scottie was a great defender/good offensive player, but neither had LeBron’s court vision and passing ability. It’s not insane to say that he is a combination of Magic and Michael, because that’s exactly how he plays. People forget that when he first came into the league, a lot of folks expected him to be the next Magic. Anyone remember his 1st Nike commercial with the choir and him throwing passes all over the place?
    @JTaylor is right. Kobe has never had the vision LeBron has. A few summers ago, he said himself that he’s a one on one player when everyone was talking about who would win if he and LeBron played one on one. Never been interested in making his teammates better.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    JTaylor
    Kobe played passed the ball well when motivated with Shaq. Hell, he put up a 30, 6 and 7 season in Los Angeles when they lost to the Spurs in the playoffs. If he could do that with his regular mindset, he could get LeBron’s numbers with a different one.
    Kobe’s issue has always been mental man. Every flaw is a mental one, not a skill one, in my opinion.

  • http://nba.com GP23

    I’ve got a nice little story for y’all.
    A defining Kobe story:
    When Michael Lewis wrote about Shane Battier studying hours of video to help himself defend Kobe’s moves, Kobe had someone create a similar video breakdown, broke down his own moves, then added a few wrinkles to keep Battier on his toes (almost like they were playing chess.)
    I just can’t think of another player in the league who would’ve done the same….

  • T-Money

    the thing is, we now know what kobe’s prime was and – albeit phenomenal – it doesn’t compare to jordan’s. that’s why people are moving on the kobe/mj discussion, no matter how many rings kobe gets now, he just flat out wasn’t as good as jordan in his prime. lebron ,on the other hand, just entered his prime at 27 with a bang (nba champ, olympic champ, mvp, all nba, all defense) that had not been seen since mj. his career can still rival mj’s – not saying it will but that it still can. let’s see where he is in 5-6 years then we will be able to have that discussion. remember that a couple of months ago some “pundits” were still saying that there was an inherent flaw in lebron’s game and make up that would prevent him from winning it all, ever. lol

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    No its not disrespectful to him….MIke and Lebron do absolutely nothing alike on the court so why do people still compare their games. Him and Magic are more comparable but Magic wasn’t a scorer…That’s why I Say Grant Hill because he virtually did everything Lebron did offensively, just not as good but still great pre-injuries nonetheless.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    We aren’t comparing LeBron’s career to Jordan’s as a whole, that would be utterly stupid. Just comparing LeBron at his current peak to Jordan at a similar time in his career. What is so difficult about understanding that Kobe is 34 years old and comparing him to Michael at the same age shouldn’t happen simply because Jordan was considerably more accomplished, and efficient. The difference for LeBron is, he’s 27. Take LeBron at 27, Jordan at 27, and Kobe at 27 – see if you can understand why LeBron’s place in this conversation is legitimate.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    When LeBron wants to score, he can. Unstoppable. That’s the MJ part. When people say he has Jordan skills, they’re referring to him being able to score at will.

  • http://www.slamonline.com flea

    AP To answer your question, yes and no. When you say Eddie Jones was much much better innitially, do you mean like 96’97? Ok, he had more experience, his game was more balanced, he was waay easier to cach more mature but that was about his roof.
    I guess if you feel like being physically stronger makes you much, much better. EJ was a swing with a decent 3 But, it was clear from day one that kobe’s upside, his skillset had a much taller roof than EJ’s. Magic knew this, West knew this Chick did everyone seemed to acknowledge it but Del. I think it takes ANY young player lanky ass hell or a buff mofo TIME minutes to see what he can become,especially out of HS. You can say Kobe wasn’t “ready” and LeBron was but the proof is in the pudding playing time. the only thing that wasn’t ready about Kobe was his discipline. For a kid that was hearing all the things you are saying but knew he could prove them wrong if he had more mins/touches, that only made him worse. But Phil did a much better job of managing Kobe.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    Lebron can’t hit the 3 whenever he wants. Keep him out the post and Lebron is less effective.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    AllenP, I’m not talking about numbers. I’m talking about one’s ability to create nothing out of something, good looks for teammates that aren’t good looks to begin with, be 2 steps ahead of the defense, seeing plays before they happen. LeBron has that, Kobe doesn’t. It’s not a knock on Kobe because only a handful of players in NBA history have possessed such a skill .

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    LeBron is a different player than every player we have ever seen. Grant Hill had no semblance of a jump shot, and was not the type of defender that LeBron is. Pippen wasn’t the scorer LeBron is. Jordan statistically, is the only guy comparable to LeBron (check 1988-89) – But Jordan was a true guard, with extreme athleticism and He was a much much superior scorer. Magic was not the scorer or defender LeBron is by any stretch. But he was a much better playmaker and winner (from what we’ve seen). LeBron has aspects of all of their games, he’s not a new version of any of them, really.

  • shm

    @Lakeshow, but wouldn’t you say that the bigger a player is the harder it is for that player to have certain skills in abundance? When you’re that big you’re usually gonna look mad goofy out there, or at least be assigned to the post. Lebrons 6-8/9 250 lbs, and he’s out there dribbling like a guard, running the offense, and shooting the outside shot pretty well. So while you’re saying that because Lebron is so big and physically gifted that that should diminish his status as a skilled player, you could also look at it like the fact that he’s power forward size and doing point guard stuff, plus still beasting people inside, actually enhances it. Oh and Lebrons bball iq is almost as freakish as his athleticism in my opinion.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    Nah, Lebron and Mike games are nothing alike. They score in different ways and Mike always wanted to score, it wasn’t any when he wants to score he’s unstoppable. There mentality is not alike nor their games, people need to kill that. I know people wanna try to hype Lebron up more than he already is so they refrain from comparing him to a scottie or Grant Hill because their careers weren’t quite as spectacular or successful as they would hope for Lebron but the Mike comparison has to stop.

  • ALD

    i find it funny how when ppl say comparing Lebron to MJ is blasphemous like MJ is God or something. Lebron will be better if he at least wins 3 more rings. Jordan was nothing without pippen! King James> Air Jordan

  • http://nba.com GP23

    Even in ’97 and ’98, Kobe was still very popular.
    Notice he is still the youngest ever player to start an ASG, which was 98. Kobe wasn’t even starting for the Lakers that season, and yet he was a STARTER on the Western All-Stars… Crazy!!

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    That is why I have always felt that court vision is LeBron’s best skill. I saw it all the back to his HS days. We saw what he did in the Olympics, the guy had like 6 or 7 “did you see that” dimes every game.

  • http://www.yahoo.com The Fury

    @T-Ray…
    1) The Glove
    2) MJ
    3) Bruce Bowen
    4) Tim Duncan
    5) Mount Mutombo

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    Kobe was 18 years old his rookie year, he was still physically, not ready for big minutes and responsibility. He had great skills but he mentally wasn’t ready to use them in games successfully and consistently. He got Phil Jackson at what 21? He had 3 years under his belt to develop his game to be productive in big minutes over the course of an NBA season. But before that, with Del Harris, he just flat out wasn’t ready. If you can’t recognize that Eddie Jones was the better player during Kobe’s first 2 seasons then you either weren’t really paying attention, are attempting to revise history, or are blinded by the idea that you hVe to defend Kobe gainst what you perceive to be hating.
    .
    Kobe Bryant is one of the 10 or so greatest players to ever play. This is pretty unanimously agreed too by every regular here – no reason to get defensive like we are hating on the guy, we aren’t, we’re just trying to put his legacy in proper perspective.

  • http://nba.com GP23

    He was 19 in that ASG, and he was ballin’… even impressing the great MJ. I know it was just an ASG, but dude went off.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    ALD, you’re a funny little guy.

  • http://www.yahoo.com The Fury

    If Grant Hill didn’t get injured. People will be calling Lebron “Grant 2.0″.

  • eZ

    Best post, most on-point, says it all, i’ll copy:

    Dagger Posted: Aug.15 at 12:52 pm
    Compared to prime Jordan, Lebron is a much more efficient scorer. He’s a better and more willing passer, especially out of double teams, and his court vision is on another level. He’s a superior (defensive) rebounder, and a better defender. Perhaps the most versatile two-way player in league history, he can play PF on one position and PG the next at the highest level. Kobe was one of the most skilled scorers in the history of the game, yet his belief in his own abilities also encouraged him to attempt the impossible against double or triple teams. Hence his efficiency as a shooter was often barely acceptable for an elite scorer. He was an underrated offensive rebounder, a capable passer when he wanted to be, and a very good individual defender. His clutch reputation was overrated, but he could certainly perform when it counted. Statistically he didn’t raise the level of his game in the playoffs, let alone in the finals, and his production/efficiency never approached that of Lebron or MJ in their peak years. Lebron at age 27 is a better player than Kobe ever was. Not a more skilled scorer, but, overall, indisputably better.

  • http://www.slamonline.com flea

    Co sign AP 3:35 pm.

    Steve nash has also had better team sucess without a superior front court than kobe too. I see that point and it’s true. At best kobe has been a facilitator for stretches,and not since 08’09 but even at his best he seemed torn like his impulse to be a gunner could’nt co-exist with that., and i agree his weaknesses are clearly mental. He just does’nt have it in him to lead. LeBron on the other hand has the midset of a PG. Still like Nash that playoff sucess did’nt amount to a chip, and honestly for allot of those years the east was weak compared to the West. LBJ’s Cavs teams like some of Nash’s overachievd do to his leadership tho. But When it comes to Chips not playoff sucess Bron also has only done it with a premire big man. That’s my point homie.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    The best part about hearing(reading) Allen P’s arguments is that he just put an article out where he speaks of his absolute inherent HATRED for the Lakers organization.
    But he is unbiased in his view of course.
    Carry on.
    LMAO
    .
    Nothing wrong with Stockton there T-Ray. GP is one of my favorite all time players and he earned his moniker THE GLOVE for a reason, but Stockton is underrated when speaking of all time great defenders.
    .
    What I said about LBJ’s skills being one of the top 30 players I truly believe and stand by.
    Here are some players that if given LeBron’s body(which is not his fault, he is blessed out of this world) would dominate like he does.
    Paul Pierce
    Rajon Rondo
    Dwayne Wade
    Kobe Bryant
    Manu Ginobli
    Tim Duncan
    Pau Gasol
    Chris Paul
    Deron Williams
    Derrick Rose
    Kevin Garnett
    .
    I’m not “getting at” anything with this. I just think that LeBron is undeniably one of the greatest athlete phenoms of all time. And for me I view that as a bonus that he inherited naturally that other players just don’t have the luxury of, and therefore I don’t view his dominance as special as someone like Kobe or Chris Paul so on.
    So that’s my biased POV.
    At least I admit it.
    Bike: Kobe would be better than LeBron by a long shot IMO. He IS more skilled. Give him LeBron’s body and he is going to be more dominant. The question is whether Kobe’s brain would understand that or if he would take contested jumpers anyway and continue at 45% FG shooting not utilizing his size the way LeBron has done.
    Taylor: Why would Kobe average 6 assists in a season with his “lousy court vision” if he didn’t have the skills or attitude to do that?

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Who said anything about Kobe having lousy court vision? Putting words in people’s mouths, I see.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Who said I was unbiased?
    If I have an opinion, then I have a bias.
    It’s not about the absence of bias, it’s about presenting an argument that makes logical points.
    Every human being in America has biases. How we control those biases is what’s important.
    My arguments are logical. I present supporting information. It’s whatever, people are going to believe what they want to believe.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    Not only is Lakeshow biased, he’s an idiot. How the heck can you do that type of hypothetical? Ok if Michael Jordan played the same and had Shaq’s body he’d be a beast too..what’s your point? Lebron is plain and simply better than Kobe, stop trying to make excuses as to why he’s better.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    If you docking cats for their physical gifts, then you gotta dock a whole bunch of cats in the history of basketball.

  • http://www.slamonline.com flea

    NBK not sure if your last comment was specifically directed at me, but you do tend to take something that’s debatable and put your opinion in the context of absolute proof top’d of with insults as if to cement said opinions. go head, you do you. My response to AP was: Yes and No, you seem confused. In 96’97 Was EJ the more mature player? I said yes no? was he much much better? By 97’98 kobe showed the country what he was capable of at the all star game be it a game of weak defense those were the best of the best in the entire leauge this includes EJ. If you ascribe to the notion that at until Phil came along kobe could not become ready for big minutes or a starting role and that EJ remained MUCH MUCH better, well forgive me if i assert that to be an opinion rather than fact regaurdless of any insult you may fire down from above.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    Ez….that comment started off horrible saying Lebron is a MUCH MORE EFFICIENT scorer compared to primed jordan. Around the same ages as Lebron Mj FG%,Ft%, per were all higher than LBJ while averaging more points as well. Then its says Lebron is a better defender than MJ, Lebron is a more versatile defender but MJ was more effective on the defensive end.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Slick Ric

    The comment at 4:18 is not me.

  • bike

    LeBron, Kobe, and MJ are all athletic freaks. MJ had freak-sized hands, the upper body of an NFL player, and legs like a greyhound. Kobe, in his prime, had a crazy first step, unbelievable hops, and body control that was out of this world. All three of these guys were born gifted. LeBron is at most 2-3 inches taller than both MJ and Kobe – not a huge advantage. Granted, his size and strength are superior but the biggest and strongest guys in the league are rarely playing point guard like LeBron can.

    The reason for the debate is that we can all probably agree that the margin of whatever we use to quantify ‘better’ is very, very small between these three.

  • LA Huey

    I don’t like the whole “if player A was blessed with player B’s body, he’d be just as good, if not better”. It seems intellectually dishonest. Doesn’t a smart player take stock of his natural assets, the strengths and weaknesses that gives him, and mold his game to maximize their potential? Chris Paul’s always been short, so he’s had a LONG list of better ish to do than develop a post game. There’s also a finite amount of time you can spend to develop your skills and you have to pick and choose at what you’ll try to imporve. Durant probably could develop some strength to his frame but that will take time away from his reps on his shot and handle. So saying this list of players could do as well if they had LeBron’s body is just a weird hypothetical to me.

  • http://www.reverbnation.com/tray24 T-Ray

    MJ has always been one of if the not the best efficient scoring superstars in the history of the NBA. It’s almost insane considering the great defensive teams and hand checking that was going on during his rein.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Lake, if LeBron’s athleticism is the reason why he is such a dominant player than explain to me why guys like James White, Gerald Green and VC to a lesser extent, weren’t dominant players?
    This is the same BS argument that I always hear from Laker fans. They say the exact same thing about Shaq.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Handchecking the majestic galloping unicorn of NBA defense.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Sorry if you don’t like the fact that LeBron James is possibly the most gifted athlete the NBA has seen and possibly that major sports has ever seen.
    Yeah I am discrediting him a little bit.
    Sorry if that upsets anyone. (I’m not sorry, but you get the drift)
    .
    It’s not LeBron’s fault, but TO ME, SOME of his accomplishments aren’t as special as when other players do them.
    He should rebound 8 boards per game or more, he has never done this. (KD grabbed more boards this year than LeBron ever has and he is 23 and scratching 200 pounds and plays on the perimeter more.)
    LeBron has incredibly great court vision. That is a skill that he has where he sets himself apart. He is a top 10 play maker in the League.
    Scoring wise, he does what he should do. He doesn’t take a bunch of three’s because he isn’t that great at shooting them, and he know’s that with his body he needs to go the basket nearly every play to take advantage of his … well, advantage.
    He is smart. Too smart for my liking. He makes the play that makes sense nearly every time. Sounds good right? I like the defense having to pay extra close attention to the best player on the court, but it you play off LeBron because you know he is looking to pass or drive, he is more likely to pass the ball than try to make you pay for it.
    I’m just hating on the dude though.
    He is AMAZING.
    Top 15 player all time already IMO.

  • Da-Meat-Hook

    Shout out to Allenp for using my “majestic galloping unicorn” phrase!! I really hope it catches on!!!

  • http://slamonline house

    So by this logic, 1 contemporary championship = 1 Jordan era championship? Don’t get me wrong, Lebron is an amazing player, the leagues best and its a credit to him that he has done so considering all the drama the past few years. But he ain’t on Jordan’s level yet and it ain’t only about championships, it’s about smarts too, and Jordan had those in bunches and was mentally tough as nails. Like I said, Lebron ain’t there yet.

  • bike

    Lakeshow does raise a point – should LeBron even be compared to MJ? MJ/Kobe comparisons seem valid since they played the same position and had similar styles. We obviously would never compare Shaq or Wilt to MJ or Elgin Baylor…
    It’s probably safe to say that the probability of unified agreement on this thread is rather low.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    Actually Kobe was better than Jones by the next year, with Del Harris still coaching the team. It’s why Jones was traded. It’s not like Kobe developed slow, it’s just that Jones was clearly better each of the first two seasons of his career. Everyone remembers Jones was an elite defender right? There is nothing wrong with one of the best 2′s in the league still being superior too a teenager….how good you are in the MBA is about how good you are over 82 games +playoffs. Not how you performed in an all star game where playing defense comes right after avoiding injury for everyone but Kobe “I am going to kill you at every moment of my life on any basketball court anywhere” Bryant. There is nothing wrong with what this means, it doesn’t diminish Kobe’s legacy, it doesn’t and wouldn’t change anything if he started next to Jones. Del Harris is a respected basketball coach, to act like he’s an AYS dad who volunteered, gets drunk and then decides the teams rotation is insulting anyway. Kobe didn’t start because he wasn’t good enough too on that team. Which won 56& 61 games with Bryant coming off the bench.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    If you’re starting a team and Chris BOsh and Reggie Miller in their prime are the two best players available on the board, who would you select?

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    Bike, Jordan is 6’4″ in reality. Kobe is like 6’6″ and LeBron is a legitimate 6’8″ – but flat head height is irrelevant, standing reach, Vertical Jump, and quickness stats are what matter. Just saying though.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    Bosh

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Bosh, brings more to the table.

  • LA Huey

    Weird how sometimes people will compare players of today to those of yesterday and knock the present’s offensive prowess for the lack of handchecking they had to deal with. They almost certainly fail to do the same to the past’s defense for being able to utitlize handchecking.

    Allenp, depends on my franchise. Big market: I take Reggie (I’ll take villain chops over size). Otherwise, Bosh.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Chris Bosh by a small margin.
    .
    Taylor, All those guys are shorter and between 50 to 60 pounds lighter than LBJ.
    I’m not saying that LeBron isn’t great because of his natural gifts, i’m just saying to me it’s not as impressive to see a dude bully his way to the rim.
    That’s not all there is to his game obviously, but that’s his go to. I don’t like that as a go to move. This are my preferences not NBA guidelines. Not saying they should be anyone elses.
    These are just the reasons why I respect and love Kobe’s and MJ’s games more than LBJ despite him being equally as dominant.

  • LA Huey

    Allenp, I consider personality because if I owned a team, I’d put a slight emphasis on my team having a personality. Reggie Miller over Joe Dumars every day of the week.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Yet Reggie is in the HOF and most people don’t think Bosh will ever belong.

  • pposse

    handchecking is typical when guarding someone one on one wherever you play other than in the NBA. Is handchecking allowed still in the NCAA and HS atheletics? I know it is in any rec center across the country, the NBA should just change the rules back already..there is enough goddamn talent now in the NBA where people will watch regardless of what the score is..revert back nba please!

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    And that was a damn good point by LA Huey. Pay attention.

  • feez_22

    I agree with most of Lakeshow’s points but the point about lebron’s skill being on par with 30 other players in the nba… and then comparing his rebounding prowess to kevin durant’s… ok let me start.

    #1: Kevin durant should average 8+ rebounds per game in the reg season. Yes he is a perimeter player but the guy is a legitimate 6-10 with turantula arms the length of seven footers. Lebron probably could average 10 rebounds in a season but he has 2 do much more for his team than a kevin durant does. I think thats more of an energy thing because in the playoffs, lebron avg what 9.7 rebounds per game? Career playoff rebounding avg of 8.7 rebounds per game. Besides, lebron avg 7.9 rebounds this year and avg 7.9 rebounds in 07-08. all but 2 of his seasons under 7 rebounds per game. The anchor of his defense since 08, number 1 passer on his team since he was drafted & the number one scorer since he was drafted (moreso yr 2 forward). I won’t criticise lebron’s rebounding as he does so much for his team already and on top of that ups his rebounds by 1-2 rpg come playoff time.

    2. In terms of putting the basketball in the hoop and manuevering to get the basketball in the net (footwork, post moves, separation, etc) i would agree that lebron is probably on par with 30 other NBA players. Guys like brandon roy are able to manuever the court better. also his jumper isn’t awesome… 45% from midrange in 2010-2011 but it still can be better. 3 pointer is sporadic. However, if you put lebron’s whole skillset together, who really has a better one? IMO, there is no one in the NBA today that has a skillset like that. supreme courtvision that could put him as a top 10 PG if he played that position, great crossover for his size, good shooter (not great), his defensive ability (which isn’t all about athletic prowess; his footwork is pretty good defensively) but what sets him apart is his skill to control an entire game’s tempo. He is the only wing player in the NBA today that can do that. That game 4 against indiana… 40-18-9 … for a player 2 do that… your skillset needs to be supreme. esp in this NBA. talent can only get you so far. but ya in terms of his fundamentals, he needs work so i agree with that.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    @LakeShow So a player’s natural size should be used against them? If we’re going by that, then we can discredit Shaq’s whole career. Why would someone hold a player’s size against them? Makes no sense. All those players you listed who would dominate if they were LeBron’s size (it’s a stupid hypothetical situation to bring up, but let’s go with it)….all those guys you listed are already dominant. D-Rose’s explosiveness and strength lets him dominate other PGs. D-Wade’s strength, defense, and ability to make tough shots makes him dominant. Paul Pierce’s uncanny ability to score without being in a rush. Every superstar player has something that allows them to dominate. Why should LeBron’s gifts be used against him to somehow say that his accomplishments aren’t as impressive as someone who’s smaller than he is?

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    Defenses are better today than they have ever been. This should be stated apparently. There is a reason the league is giving offensive players new advantages they never had before. The reason it’s hard to recognize for the less “involved” person i would guess is that the focus on team defense has taken from or hid (whatever you want to say) what would be very impressive individual defensive stats and the rules from the past seem to imply the defenses were too good, rather than for the purpose of preventing them from becoming too good as the rule changes were implied to do

  • LA Huey

    “These are just the reasons why I respect and love Kobe’s and MJ’s games more than LBJ despite him being equally as dominant.” I can understand that. Just a matter of preference. I love LBJ’s game for the fact that his seems like fun to play rec-league ball with.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Now I know why Laker fans have little to no respect for what Shaq did
    for their team.
    As a coach I rather have substance over personality.

  • feez_22

    but ya we can’t even compare prime kobe to prime lebron can we? lebron’s prime isn’t even halfway done yet. dude is 27 (well 28 come december) and has 2-3 more yrs of prime left… maybe 4 depending on his athletic deterioration or injuries. Guy imo isn’t at his best yet. his post game can still use a couple go to moves. deep post moves like the dropstep and the turnaround (he has the midrange turnaround off the midpost). As a scorer, lebron will never be as dynamic as prime kobe was… but that’s ok bc no passers on the wing are as good as lebron. iggy is a pretty good passer but not lebron’s level. lebron had a fantastic year but lets wait and see.

  • feez_22

    but ya we can’t even compare prime kobe to prime lebron can we? lebron’s prime isn’t even halfway done yet. dude is 27 (well 28 come december) and has 2-3 more yrs of prime left… maybe 4 depending on his athletic deterioration or injuries. Guy imo isn’t at his best yet. his post game can still use a couple go to moves. deep post moves like the dropstep and the turnaround (he has the midrange turnaround off the midpost). As a scorer, lebron will never be as dynamic as prime kobe was… but that’s ok bc no passers on the wing are as good as lebron. iggy is a pretty good passer but not lebron’s level. lebron had a fantastic year but lets wait and see.

  • peregrine

    Kobe could’ve been a great playmaker if he chose to, but ultimately his most basic instinct was to score. Jordan was very much the same way but Kobe has always been less efficient and less effective. This is not due to any lack of skill or ability on Kobe’s part (which I believe to be on Jordan’s level) but simply his style of play. Honestly, his shot selection has changed little over the years no matter the varying talent levels of the different teams that he has played on. He still insists on doing things his way, which typically means taking some ridiculously stupid shots. IMO, Kobe could’ve been a much greater player if he had changed a very fundamental part of his thinking earlier on.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    LeBron’s size is just as much of an advantage as Jordan’s athleticism was. What’s the difference? Magic said that Jordan was the strongest guard he played against. LeBron bullies his way to the basket. Jordan blew by people, got in the air faster and stayed in the air longer. If that’s going to be a criteria for how impressive someone’s accomplishments are, I could say that Shaq’s championships aren’t all that great because he was the biggest player on the floor at all times. Iverson’s scoring titles were just okay because he was always the fastest/quickest player on the floor. Kobe’s championships mean nothing because he was always the most athletic player on the floor except when he played a young Vince Carter. Jordan’s first 3 championships were just alright. He was supposed to win because he was Air Jordan. His last 3 were also just alright. He was supposed to win because his midrange and post game were great. Absolutely ridiculous to say that a player’s accomplishments should be valued depending on what kind of advantage they had because every superstar has/had some kind of advantage.

  • feez_22

    damn why did my post double post…

  • LA Huey

    “There is a reason the league is giving offensive players new advantages they never had before.” nbk with the point people fail to recognize. Like how folks say the NFL’s getting soft because there rules to protect the quarterback but fail to recognize how much more violent the contact has become in the sport.

  • http://www.nba.com/knicks danpowers

    id take reggie miller over bosh. bosh brings more to the table but he doesnt have this little extra / killer instinct. man, when i think of miller killing my knicks with 8 pts in the last 11 seconds in game 1 of the 95 semifinals and then compare that to bosh… youll never get games like these out of a guy like bosh. he is a pretty good pivot but no guy with a killer instinct or an extra gear like guys like barkley or miller had. put miller on a team with some nice point guard and two bruisers down low and youll be as fine as youd be with a team that would be built around bosh with him as the first option. miller was more of a role player but he played his role almost perfect thats why he had this all star status.

  • http://www.stillonthebench.blogspot.com TR

    Man so much has been said here today. I only have a couple of points. First, someone said Shaq didn’t have skills like Duncan…go watch a tape…Ive seen Shaq run the break, make no look passes, use pump fakes etc. The fact is he didnt have to use all those things because he weighed 325 lbs, but I think even if Shaq was 225 lbs he still wouldve been great.

    Currently i believe MJ is the best. I watch old game tapes and the things he was doing 20-25 years ago would still be effective today. Sure LeBron rebounds better, passes better and is stronger, but how do you win a basketball game? By outscoring the opponent. I think MJs ability to score trumps LeBron’s advantages. MJ is a far more advanced scorer than LeBron; however LeBron is 27 so its asinine to say he couldnt be better. The guy is a freak of nature, the terminator version of Magic Johnson. Its nuts, but for now and the foreseeable future its Jordan on top of the mountain.

  • Robert

    @byanymeansnecessary: you are fu***** crazy for saying Dwight will be the best player on that laker team next year. And stop slighting Kobe for having good teammates for most of his career. DWade is a sure fire hall of famer and bosh is a perennial all star. Their system do not need a dominant big men since they play small ball like the thunder. So it’s all about systems that are put in place, so I don’t see any reason why Kobe’s rings should be the only one to have an asterisk next to them. Lastly, I bet anyone here that mj’s teams in 90s except probably the ’91 and ’96 will lose to the celtics of the late 2000s and the spurs of early to mid 2000s. Teams are more loaded now than they were during the 90s. Lebron knew that that’s why he bolted to Miami and the lakers just reloaded themselves too. Bottom line: Mike’s rings are not better than Kobe’s or lebron because he played with mostly role players. Teams today are better today than they were back then.

  • feez_22

    & the argument about handicapping lebron’s skills due to him being a superior athlete… what is that about? It would be one thing if he was the only athletic 6’8 player ever. Fact is, there are a number of athletic small forwards in the league now and whom were in the league before that can’t do half of the things lebron can do. thats the argument skip bayless uses. nice.

  • http://www.stillonthebench.blogspot.com TR

    @Robert, those would be some good games between Jordan’s Bulls and Duncan’s Spurs, but once you start bringing up best teams you open up a whole other can of worms haha

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    @Robert Kobe must also be fu***** crazy because he said the same thing. He also said the team is now Dwight’s.

  • bike

    PJ once said that he gave Jordan the edge over Kobe because of Jordan’s huge hands.
    Just sayin since this thread has been moving so slowly…

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    If Dwight is healthy he’s the best player on the Lakers. And the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league.

  • http://www.reverbnation.com/tray24 T-Ray

    Best team IMO are the 87 Lakers biased opinion aside. They had everything you could want in a championship caliber squad. They could score, defend, tight unit and great bench play and HOF players.

  • http://www.stillonthebench.blogspot.com TR

    I think Dwights the 3rd best in the league based on this logic. The only players you could trade for Lebron and Durant are each other or Dwight. After that you’re getting a shitty deal.

  • http://www.stillonthebench.blogspot.com TR

    i think Dwight is the 3rd best in the league based on this logic. The only players you could trade LeBron and Durant for are each other or Dwight. After that you’re getting a shitty deal.

  • LA Huey

    nbk, you hear that 2K13 will feature the Dream Team and other itertations of Team USA

  • http://www.nba.com/knicks danpowers

    i wanted to throw in another thing when talking about lebron james having a better all around game than jordan. jordans carreer averages of 2,4spg and 0,8 bpg as a guard and being under 6,7 speak for itself. wouldnt be suprised if also his defensive efficiency stats were better than james. jordan put up a season with 2,9spg 0,8bpg 8rpg 8apg and 32,5ppg by shooting 53% from the field and 85% from the free throw line. people cant be serious when they say jordan was just a scorer n that he didnt have an overall game. when he entered the 90s they used him less as a ball handler handing splitting passing duties with pippen and the other guards on the roster and using the triangle offense later on where nobody really puts up many assists. in a “normal” offense he wouldve still brought up rediculous all around numbers. but this wouldve been stupid coz they way the 90s bulls played was the most effective thing to do with jordans and pippens skills. thats absolutely no contest, james aint better than jordan and it would really suprise me if people would see him as such when he retires.

  • http://www.reverbnation.com/tray24 T-Ray

    I forgot to mention that earlier Huey saw it on twitter. Sounds like 2K listens to us a little bit.

  • http://theurbangriot.com The NUPE

    A coach who got to work with both guys and see them up close in person in both practice and games believes LeBron could be better than MJ. I think that’s a fairly credible opinion. I believe Pippen made a similar statement after playng with and working out with LeBron and others. Again, another guy with a lot of experience watching MJ up-close and personal. Also, neither coach nor Pippen have anything to ‘gain’ by saying LeBron could be the best ever. Seems like a lot of commentators and people on this board tend to say things more out of an ‘emotional connection’ to the glory of the Jordan era or say ridiculous things like ‘will to win’ or ‘heart’ – which nobody can measure as reasons why MJ is better. And some peope use championship rings which is another weak argument as there are many HOFers without ring that are clearly better than some guys with rings. Russel has more rings than anybody so according to ring-counters he should be the best. Bottom line, rings don’t mean player A is better than player B, all rings mean is the best TEAM in a given season. Comparing players across generations is always hard because rules change as well as style of basketball etc. So to say LeBron is the best doesn’t really surprise me, I would say he’s up there with others. I think the notion of a coach saying LeBron plays like Magic with MJ skills is huge within itself and actually a ‘fair’ way to describe his game. To be compared with arguable the best team basketball player of all time (Magic) and the arguably the best individual player of all time (MJ) is a testament to LeBron that nobody on this board has yet ‘disproved’ with stats or by disecting his actual game. Even Phil thought Kobe (who is compared by some to MJ for individual game) should play more like LeBron. Thats a huge statement too. I understand there are a lot of Lebron haters out there, but nobody yet has even come close to making any kind of reasonable argument as to why LeBron isn’t the best player ever. Another thing, I’ll add, there is a potential difference in “best” player ever and “greatest” player ever.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    A coach who got to work with both guys and see them up close in person in both practice and games believes LeBron could be better than MJ. I think that’s a fairly credible opinion. I believe Pippen made a similar statement after playng with and working out with LeBron and others. Again, another guy with a lot of experience watching MJ up-close and personal. Also, neither coach nor Pippen have anything to ‘gain’ by saying LeBron could be the best ever. Seems like a lot of commentators and people on this board tend to say things more out of an ‘emotional connection’ to the glory of the Jordan era or say ridiculous things like ‘will to win’ or ‘heart’ – which nobody can measure as reasons why MJ is better. And some peope use championship rings which is another weak argument as there are many HOFers without ring that are clearly better than some guys with rings. Russel has more rings than anybody so according to ring-counters he should be the best. Bottom line, rings don’t mean player A is better than player B, all rings mean is the best TEAM in a given season. Comparing players across generations is always hard because rules change as well as style of basketball etc. So to say LeBron is the best doesn’t really surprise me, I would say he’s up there with others. I think the notion of a coach saying LeBron plays like Magic with MJ skills is huge within itself and actually a ‘fair’ way to describe his game. To be compared with arguable the best team basketball player of all time (Magic) and the arguably the best individual player of all time (MJ) is a testament to LeBron that nobody on this board has yet ‘disproved’ with stats or by disecting his actual game. Even Phil thought Kobe (who is compared by some to MJ for individual game) should play more like LeBron. Thats a huge statement too. I understand there are a lot of Lebron haters out there, but nobody yet has even come close to making any kind of reasonable argument as to why LeBron isn’t the best player ever. Another thing, I’ll add, there is a potential difference in best player ever and greatest player ever.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    Yeah Huey I posted the 92 dream team pic on twitter, if you haven’t seen it.

  • http://www.reverbnation.com/tray24 T-Ray

    What’s your twitter nbk? I’ll follow you I’m trying to boost up our music group page.

  • http://www.nba.com/knicks danpowers

    or just compare jordans overall stats during his first 9 years http://www.nba.com/historical/playerfile/index.html?player=michael_jordan with james overall stats during his 9 years that he played so far http://www.nba.com/playerfile/lebron_james/career_stats.html. thats a no contest. james pulls down slightly some more rebounds and dishes some more assists but not that many while jordans defense and scoring was superior to james. also if you use advanced stats. you cant really put that even coz it were different timesn both play different positions but to me its not even close. jordan was obviously the better player.

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    @sooperfadeaway

  • http://www.reverbnation.com/tray24 T-Ray

    Followed man I’m too hyped after I saw the Dream Team pic!

  • LA Huey

    T-Ray, too bad they didn’t want to pay Pippen (or he got greedy). Great to finally see Barkley in the game though.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    My reason for Bosh over Reggie is size and defense. Raggie wasn’t a good defender, Bosh is. Bosh is a PF and can anchor a teams defense and Reggie can’t and isn’t. Miller is the better player IMO. Obviously career wise, but also skill and ability wise.
    .
    nbk, you know how I am with height… Jordan was a legitimate 6’5″ +. I know it’s fractions of inches we are talking about, but from my eye(which is solid) Wade is 6’4 1/2″, Jordan 6’5 3/4″, Kobe 6’6″, LeBron 6’8 1/2″ That’s what my eye tells me. You don’t have to go with my eye lol.
    .
    I have to admit that LeBron is more dominant on a nightly basis now then Kobe ever was. Pains me to say…
    Kobe is streaky though. You get him on a streak and their is no player on God’s green earth that can match him except for his Airness and maybe Bird. That’s why I love the kid.
    But I also can admit i’m a fan of JR Smith and Nick Young’s game.
    Kobe can play down to their level sometimes and that’s gross to watch(mainly because you know Kobe should never be known as a ‘chucker’ with his skill set). He has more skill than anyone. Has brains to match all of them. But his ego gets in the way. That’s Kobe main downfall. Hero baller to the core, but I like hero ball… when it works…

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    I just hope 96 is there. If its additional US teams then it should since there is only 6 of them.

  • http://www.reverbnation.com/tray24 T-Ray

    Didn’t even notice that Huey. Well seems to me he should be on the team if they continue to have old school Bulls teams oh well we finally got Barkley.

  • LA Huey

    I would love to see the ’96 team on there as it would also mean Reggie finally made it into 2K. The ’93 Suns and the ’94/’01 Pacers were the two teams I wished were in there.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Lol, it doesn’t matter either way Lake. All the personal accounts of Jordan that ive heard say he was 6’4″ or the same height as Barkley who is also 6’4″ – but its not important… And I totally respect what you said about Bryant. I actually don’t think you’ve ever been so rational about him in a comment section before lol

  • LA Huey

    Lakeshow’s name is being used by someone else. I’m convinced.

  • http://www.reverbnation.com/tray24 T-Ray

    I want the 3 peat Laker teams and 01 Sixers I know those were pretty popular request for last year.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    Ha, like you said whateva. I actually think your right that Jordan is shorter than we have documented. He and Barkley are nearly identical height so i’ll go with Jordan at 6’4 3/4″
    .
    Dream teams are going to be sick. I’ll definitely be rocking 08′, see if I can pull off the upset. 96′ will be too much fun also.

  • http://vandelay-industries.org Art Vandelay

    if they dont put it into the game just wait for the first edit patches

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    lol, shut up Huey.
    The Nupe did send one out as me(i’m assuming it was him) at 6:03 though.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    If I can get the 08 team that’d be dope, their like our bobcats

  • http://nba.com GP23

    No way will the 04 team be in. Lol.

  • Cool Dude

    Until Lebron does something crazy like average 32-8-8 on 50+%, he will never be better than Jordan.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    04 is what I meant

  • justin

    Jim Boeheim also thought Bernie Fine was just a nice guy to the kids..

  • KO8E

    Kobe and jordan have the same skills and same style. If look at kobe and jordan they have the jumpshot and spin move and foot work and compare jordan to lebron they don’t have the style. when kobe one his first ring which he was younger than lebron and no one compared kobe to jordan but lebron wins one ring and know he’s better than jordan.WTF

  • lbj

    lal had a very bad deal! we all know that howard will not sign an extension to anyone. After his contract expired he will go to Miami in echange to haslem,anthony and future round picks. He wants to get a ring so he will play with the king “LeBron”

    PG: Wade
    SG: Allen
    SF: James
    PF: Bosh
    C: Howard

    6th man: Battier
    Strong Reserve: Chalmers,Cole,Miller,Lewis and Juwan Howard.

    back to back championship

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    ^Straight Knowledge Drop^ WTF

  • LeBrOn 4 MvP!

    Yo yO Ya gRiLL my feelings yall? its about to go down yo. lebron COULD be better than mJ Ya FEEl ME? but he aint there yet yo, he got lota work to do before he GeT thErE Real talk, buT hiS tSAlEnT and raw athletic ability gives him the potenTial tO bE one ya. Mj still the greatest. miami stand up! area code 127 till i die

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Lol

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    So, why has this thread continued after Allenp exposed the masses with the Miller/Bosh question?
    This is why he is The Professor…

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Looks like 2K continues to pull wool over everyone’s eyes. They have y’all all giddy over another addition that does nothing to improve the gameplay.

  • robb

    Nobody will be better than black jesus. Lebron’s a more complete player though.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    So Kobe copies how Jordan walks, talks, chews his gum, and shoots and that makes him like Jordan? LeBron has to copy him too to be in the discussion? That makes a lot of sense. By that logic, anyone who wants to be compared to Jordan should copy him. Cool. No one compared Kobe to Jordan after his first ring because he only averaged 21 points in his first Finals and he was playing with a guy named Shaq.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    Taylor, naw that’s jus what they announced today. They have changed a lot but you can’t expect them to rebuild the whole game. It’s not like it gets more than 8 months of work before its released

  • KO8E

    And who was lebron james was playing with wade and bosh so yeah. I don’t why people say was by himself in cleveland and didn’t cleveland have the best record in the nba for to straight seasons and lebron had shaq and mo williams and west and antawn jamison and had all those good players and wasn’t able to win a ring. then he joins with wade and bosh because they couldn’t do themself. I’m not saying that their only player but to lead their to the championship, like jordan had help but was the one leading the team telling them what to do and kobe telling pau and bynum what to do.

  • http://www.slamonline.com AT

    I can’t say whos the better player right now between mj n lbj but the better question is who would win in a one on one match?!

  • http://www.slamonline.com AT

    Yea about what i said before, ihav made a list from my perspective tell me what u think.You know what lets make this jus best wing players of all time for now.

    UPDATED LIST OF GREATEST WING PLAYERS IN NBA OF ALL-TIME:1980s-current

    1.sighs MJ
    2.Kobe Bryant
    3.LBJ
    4.Magic Johnson
    5.Kevin Durant or Larry Bird
    6.Allen Iverson
    7.Isiah Thomas
    8.Jason Kidd
    9.Vince Carter or T-Mac

    Edit if you want!!!

  • http://slamonline.com Krishan

    Eboy: ” being a stand up dude in the wake of incredible strife. ” Incredible strife=criticisms on a billionaire basketball player LOL. GTFOH and jump into a pit of fire with the stupid s#it. Incredible strife lol.

  • ctk

    @AT ..Thomas/Magic/Kidd r not wing players …so u got to add on to your list

  • http://www.newyorkshockexchange.com/content/view/424/37/ Shock Exchange

    The greatest “hype men” in history. Feel free to add to the list.

    1. Horry Jr (Shaq, Pau Gasol / Andrew Bynum at the same ____ time)
    2. Flavor Flav (Public Enemy)
    3. ODB (Wu-Tang)
    4. Crunchy Black (Three 6 Mafia)
    5. Spliff Star (Busta)

  • http://www.slamonline.com Redd

    KD and Lebron over Kobe.

  • feez_22

    You guys hear what coach K had 2 say about lebron? i’m sure slam will put up an article tomorrow about it but man… coach K was giving lebron so much praises… http://www.jimrome.com/junglehighlights?uri=channels/465575/1691506

  • http://www.slamonline.com AT

    @ctk ..I meant more of backcourt players.

  • http://slam flight9

    I hate Lebron u all know it. He might be better than MJ in stats overall and what you can do in the court! BUT, MJ won everything with some help of course from some players pippen, rodman, harper, coach Phil…. SO, it is still JORDan OVER LBJ PERIOD!!!! I don’t care if he wins 8 champioship!!!!!!! JORDAN IS STILL THE GOAT OF ALL GOATS DAMN IT!!!!!!!!!!!1 6-0 IN FINALS WHEN IT COUNTS!!!!!

  • Mack

    I think when people talk about all time basketball players and comparing people to Jordan, Kobe SHOULD be the number one on that category, with D-Wade coming a close second and a plethora of other guys right behind. But in my opinion LeBron is in a class of his own in my opinion. He’s got the size and skills to play all five positions effectively, and with that the court vision to run a team and make on the fly decisions better than anyone else in the league. Also, let’s not forget he’s also the best all-around defender in the NBA today and not just because he can chase people down. To me LeBron is Magic Johnson 2.0 and Magic is a top 5 all-time player. So while I personally don’t think LeBron will EVER exceed what Michael Jordan did on and off the court, he’s going to go down as at LEAST a top 10 player ever if he already isn’t. LeBron’s ceiling for success is way to high to count out anything, though.

  • Mack

    @AT you left out Julius Erving, John Havlicek, David Thompson? VC is not top 10, maybe T-Mac and Iverson. J-Kidd also isn’t top 10 over the Doctor or Hondo I’m sorry.

  • robb

    @AT prime McGrady>>>prime Vince

  • Lakeshow

    6-0 IN THE FINALS
    6 TIME FINALS MVP
    2 TIMES 3 PEAT.

    HOUSTON ROCKETS SHOULD BE THANKFUL HE RETIRED OR ELSE NO RINGS FOR THEM AT ALL!

    THAT IS ALL

  • KO8E

    lebron is like magic and Kobe like Jordan

  • Conor

    I agree with everything LakeShow wrote.

  • IamYOU

    He’s goin to be better that’s fo sure. I predict 7 more rings on lebrons hands on the next 7 seasons! so that’s 8 in total! yeah saw it right! 8 Championships on Lebron! 8 CHIPS!

  • http://www.twitter.com/_dfrance dfrance

    Jordan has just reached a status in the eyes of many where he will NEVER be replaced. If Lebron would have one titles in Clevelnad with no help putting up his usual stats, Jordan fans would find a way to discredit him. This isn’t the 90s, league is less talented, etc… Fact is, its a valid debate, dude has a rare skillset never quite seen before of someone his size. Set titles aside and just talking about their skills as players, its a valid argument. I don’t think winning championships should matter in comparisons of individual players.

  • pposse

    the big difference with lebron and MJ is the fact that MJ scored the ball better and more. How many times did Lebron even get 50 pts in a singular game? Jordan in the 80′s would drop 50 on 15-17 shots and do it on a regular basis. The fact is, most fans, analysts, critics all value a scorer more than an all around game. Until Lebron shows us the ability to put up 60 points in a single game, or have more than 20 50 point games in his career the comparisons should stop. Everything else Lebron is set out to do MJ has already done. Jordan has all the accolades plus like 30 + 50 point games and like 6 games where he dropped 60 or more in a game. The Lebron i have seen thruout the years is not capable of this, until he shows us these abilities, how in the world can a one time champion be even mentioned in the same breath as the great one?!

  • Lakeshow

    @pposse

    AMEN!

  • http://gmail.com z

    Keep in mind that there was plenty of expansion going on in the 90s which created a void of “superteams” along the lines of showtime or the Celtic team of the 80s. This (to me) puts a lil less value on $’s rings and is something all you jordan worshippers should keep in mind. If ewing coulda had a better #2 than friggin starksie (2 for 18) than mj probly doesnt win in 93 or 92. Bottom line: mj wasnt as dominant as some of the kobe haters play him up to be in a pathetic effort to knock kobe (who’s not as great or dominant as mj but thats strictly bc its a more competitive era mixed with some mental issues of kobe’s). Bron could one day be the goat but will the masses open their eyes to it if so? Considering how willfully ignorant alot of yall have been over the years about kob i gotta say probly not. Theres just too much money to be made off mj’s brand and so those with a voice will continue the narrative that says mj is the goat (unless bron transforms into a commercial powerhouse, which kobe never did

  • http://www.nba.com/knicks danpowers

    @z: i agree partially with you. especially as a knicks fanatic on that ewing arguement (id rather had a better 3 than smith that b*m lol). but the thing is, if the league wouldve had a higher concentration of talent, that wouldve automatically meant that there wouldve been also more talent on the bulls so we dont know what wouldve happened if the expansion teams wouldve came after mj retired. even now the 30 team league doesnt seem to make sense if you look at the bobcats, it wouldnt even increase the talent level league wide if these guys would be spread among the other 29 nba teams

  • http://www.slamonline.com AT

    @Mack true dat

  • http://gmail.com z

    Just gonna take a guess at some of yalls ages based off your opinions: nbk is 35. Allenp is 33 lakeshow is in his 40s danpowers is in his 40s. Jtaylor is 21 pposse and redd are 15 max. La huey is 25 so is dfrance. What we need are old timers so we can have a voice of reason regarding walton kareem wilt doc etc

  • http://www.nba.com/knicks danpowers

    i am 30 mate

  • http://www.nba.com/knicks danpowers

    as a 40 yr old i wouldve put up african bambaataa lol

  • http://www.nba.com/knicks danpowers

    oh, i thought this here would be that iggy / rap thread, just got the wrong tab

  • pposse

    28 Z,your over here preaching about some conspiracy nonsense and there is too much money to be made off the Jordan brand being the reason why MJ is still relevant… and how old are you again? If you are in your late 20′s or 30′s then you tell me, who should have been the MVP every year from 1988 – 1999. Cause MJ got 5 of those. You think he deserved less? More? Or does 5 sound right to you. He wasn’t dominant? WTF is you on, you sound like a sour Knicks fan. I would be too, yall won one ring in the the last 40 years. Lebron been climbing the mountain and has been climbing. He stepped foot on a plateau this past summer with the ring, but there is a far far far climb to the peak before he sits on top as the King of the hill. I’m sure Kareem and Wilt would say they were better than MJ, and Walton was notorious for hating on MJ as a broadcaster during games, but at the end he would always give props and say MJ is the greatest.

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Why would an old-timer come comment on this website? This really wouldn’t be the place they would end up.

  • jerico

    i’m postive someone will take the mantle of goat from michael, mj is like what babe ruth is to baseball and what muhammad ali is to boxing what wayne gretzky is to hockey, yes there will be a kat who comes along with the talent and drive to become the goat theres no question its just that these guys for there sport no matter 100 years from now will be remembered as the game’s defining icon that changed there respective sports and the standard to which all will be judged by even if someone greater comes along as with baseball there are greater players than Babe Ruth yet we all know his name even if we dont give 2 cents about baseball the same shall be true of MJ its just no one has yet to take his throne as GOAT but it will happen but who knows when….

  • http://www.nba.com/knicks danpowers

    i am a sour knicks fan and i hated him and any bulls bandwagon fan back then. it would just be stupid to say that he wasnt the greatest of all time especially when you saw the defense we threw at him and he still scored 50 on us. sometimes losing to the bulls was just bad luck (e.g. smith tht “§$%$§$%&/ getting blocked 3 or 4 straight times by moving exact the same move -.- ) but mainly the reason was simply jordan. he just was and will most likely stay the greatest of all time since mankind will play basketball

  • http://slamonline.com nbk

    i’m 35? because I said Jordan was still the best player ever? Or because I said LeBron has a chance but likely won’t catch him? Hold on, Z said the exact same thing? Or wait, Z is dumb enough to think that Jordan’s brand is the reason people call him the Goat? Ok then.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Cosign @Robert Posted: Aug.15 at 5:33 pm
    @byanymeansnecessary: you are fu***** crazy for saying Dwight will be the best player on that laker team next year. And stop slighting Kobe for having good teammates for most of his career. DWade is a sure fire hall of famer and bosh is a perennial all star. Their system do not need a dominant big men since they play small ball like the thunder. So it’s all about systems that are put in place, so I don’t see any reason why Kobe’s rings should be the only one to have an asterisk next to them. Lastly, I bet anyone here that mj’s teams in 90s except probably the ’91 and ’96 will lose to the celtics of the late 2000s and the spurs of early to mid 2000s. Teams are more loaded now than they were during the 90s. Lebron knew that that’s why he bolted to Miami and the lakers just reloaded themselves too. Bottom line: Mike’s rings are not better than Kobe’s or lebron because he played with mostly role players. Teams today are better today than they were back then.

  • http://gmail.com z

    nbk: my man i meant no offense in guessing you to be 35, what made me think that wasn’t your opinion on this particular topic, which, like you said, i already essentially agreed with. I guessed you to be 35 because on OTHER threads you make arguements, points, etc that demonstrated an understanding of the game’s past, the big picture of bball in american society, and the way you talk about the 80′s sometimes, i feel pretty confident you musta lived thru them. Also, i definitely didn’t say that people only consider mike the GOAT bc of his brand–they consider him that because there’s never been a winner who excelled in effective, efficient, hero ball like mike. But Lebron COULD one day exceed mike (i doubt it, but i strongly believe that we should stay open to the possibility of SOMEONE, SOMEDAY doing it). And IF bron does one day pass $ up, i have a sneaking suspicion that alot of the folks who have a voice in the mainstream media will be nitpicking bron’s legacy the same way ppl nitpick kob’s today.

  • http://gmail.com z

    @pposse
    if you really are 28, you need to step your commenting game up, because you’re the chicago bulls’ version of the seed–a homer whose opinion doesn’t get taken seriously. Homers have no intellectual credibility. Impartiality is kinda key to being fair. If you’re not going to have a fair debate, what’s the point of being on here “debating?” i shouldn’t have to explain the rudimentary basics of debating to a 28 year old.

  • http://Slamonline.com nbk

    I took that a an insult lol idk my bad. Essentially we agree, it just seemed like you were passive aggressively suggesting I’m set in my ways or something along those lines. And I’m 25 not 35

  • http://www.fiba.com Darksaber

    Well this was a jolly good read, not all of it, skipping over Rabies-Seed’s inanities and Kobe hyperbole reveals the usual dismissal of fact and manipulation of statements to suit his needs….i.e., the usual.
    Ignoring the fact that a Lebron driven post devolved into the usual ‘Kobe rules all’ battle, lots of interesting pov’s in this thread; and hardly any insults, my needling of Dirk-hater Seed being one of the exceptions. (Yeah i know, getting swept in the playoffs by a german and his mates hurts, right?)
    Nice, felt like Slamonline when it was still fun to read opinions, which all of this is btw. Yeah,
    e all feel strongly about these guys and their place in history, some more than others, but these hypotheticals have been discussed here ad nauseum (i’d know, participated in a few over the years).
    Ranking players is subjective, no amount of conviction is going to change a commenters bias.

  • pposse

    Z, there is MJ and then there is the rest. On a side note, I do think that Kobe deserves to be compared to MJ albeit he loses in every single category every time. The only excercise this will accomplish is make MJ look that much better. The facts are Kobe is an MVP, 5 time NBA champ, has a very similar basketball game (as MJ), known by coaches to be amongst the smartest bball players in the league, All NBA honors for like 12 seasons, 2 finals MVP’s, somewhere amongst the all time leading scorers, dropped 81 pts in a single game (this is about the time in his career where most nba fans, analysts had to seriously consider his place amongst the greats imo) etc etc. But like you said Kobe’s “mental issues” kills it. Stop right here. It’s only my opinion, but i sincerely doubt that MJ would have ever let Shaq leave if he had the opp to play with him. Shaq = rings. So yeah Kobe has 5 rings, but for his standards, and most importantly my standards, he underachieved. If your cool with underachievment thats fine, but his underachievements have me ranking him in the top 15 rather than top 10. Even now, any legit all star/superstar ball player with Pau and Howard should be thinking ring or bust. We will see what happens this year, but if it aint no ring, he gets a mark against him. I gave my reasons as to why i don’t think Lebron is near MJ level yet today too, if you wanto think thats me being a homer thats on you. I do think that LBJ will go down as the 2nd best of all time when its all said and done, but he is not touchin MJ thus far in his career (a big strike goes against him for losing to Dallas last year, there was no excuse for that).

  • http://gmail.com z

    @nbk yea trust me man youre one of the most impartial voices on here. And you got a good appreciation for the past greats which is all too rare, but at the same time you do a good job of keeping it all in perspective and not worshipping the old school. @pposse that last post you dropped was great, i cant even nitpick that. Very well said. Tho i disagree on one thing: most fans agree that from 1997-2004 the lakers were shaq’s team. I agree with that.but by that logic that means shaq deserves the lion’s share of the credit for the success and by extension i feel he deserves the lion’s share of the blame (being outta shape, the infighting with kob, ripping buss about his contract situation). So in a sense kob underachieved but i think it was more shaq who did that. I think kob maxed out his potential better than any other star of his generation (occasionally to the detriment of his team, but that just shows where his priorities were at) and i give mad props for that.

  • http://gmail.com z

    @ “the philosopher” using an ellipse doesnt necessarily make a thought “deep” or “philosophical” or whatever it is you’re shooting for. Just thought someone should tell you before ya make nietzche do a somersault in his grave lol

  • http://gmail.com z

    Sorry if it ever seems im baggin on you philo. The reason is that, to me, a philosopher is someone who thinks outside the box
    Honestly i havent seen much of that from you. Ever.
    .

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Co-sign LakeShow at 6:03. And for your previous comment on the Yao Ming thread… you are wrong. Obviously Tarzan likes me.

  • Hibah

    WHY DO PEOPLE EVER COMPARE MJ AND LEBRON?!?! MICHAEL JORDAN IS THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME. LEBRON IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TALENT WISE, AND HE ALREADY RUINED HIS LEGACY WITH THE WHOLE CLEVELAND BETRAYAL. JORDAN IS THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME.

  • Zoom

    Say what you want about LeBron, @Hibah & um no he didn’t ruin his legacy he helped it. Anyways its honestly sad that people won’t give other players a chance to be better than MJ they automatically say “OH MJ BEST PLAYER EVER” Yes so for he is but we’ll never know who the better player was to this day yes MJ is but LeBron’s career isn’t even close to over. He’s gonna be a beast this year & might even win another ring. i’m not a fan of Kobe at all, but he’s an amazing player although as good as he is he’s not an MJ or LeBron…

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    I actually agree that Shaq deserves a ton of credit for the Lakers failures. I had a discussion with Myles a while back about those teams, Shaq and Kobe’s penchant for getting swept, and what it says about them as players.
    I mean, Lakers fans argue that if Kobe had LeBron’s minutes early in his career he would have been a force, but then they blame Shaq for the Lakers getting swept in the playoffs all those years like Kobe wasn’t on the team and couldn’t have helped.
    I think Shaq was the most important player, Kobe was clearly the second best and eventually almost equally important if not as impactful.
    Kobe was the best ballhandler and shot creator. Probably the best passer. But despite all those skills, he wanted to be the number one scoring option instead of just filling those other roles and continuing to rack up championships.
    It’s hard for me to understand why so many people reject this reality.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    ^Fair.

  • http://slamonline.com The Philosopher

    Shout out @z.

  • http://gmail.com z

    Lol @ philosopher. @allenp theres no question in my mind that kob was the best passer on them teams and you make a great point that had he just kept what i call his “01playoffs mindset” then he would probly have several more rings. I also find it interesting that he gets so much criticism for, in essence, choosing to push the boundaries and limits of his own abilities instead of deferring to a guy whose devotion to the sport and improving his talents were inferior to his own. You and i are both big fans of iverson. I firmly believe kobe was motivated to abandon that 01 playoff mindset in part due to envy for iverson–his mvp, the unconditional love of the peoples like you and i, his renegade image. Point im trying to make is basically just that bball is a simple team game based on unselfishness played by very complicated humans. Maybe “selfishness” isnt a trait that should be criticized (it apparently doesnt get much critical analysis by most americans when it comes to income distribution, which is infinitely more important) when it comes to a sport.

  • http://none stan weier

    looks like somebody just said something detrimental about Jesus and Mother Mary. this over-protection on Michael jordan is ridiculous. if 27 year old Michael Jordan would play against 27 year old Lebron James he would be murdered.

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