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Sunday, November 25th, 2012 at 3:17 pm  |  251 responses

Kobe Bryant: ‘I’ll Be Scoring a Lot More When [Steve] Nash Gets Back’


Kobe’s scoring numbers aren’t way down this season—he’s averaging 26.9 points per game, just one point per game less than last year. But he does expect that number to go up when point guard Steve Nash returns, allowing Kobe the chance to do less distributing and more, well, shooting. Via the OC Register: “Bryant understands how it looks. When he sets up teammates for buckets, the Lakers have been winning. When he doesn’t, they haven’t. Bryant’s pick-and-roll plays are “by far” the best attack the team has, D’Antoni said, while Steve Nash remains out because of a leg fracture. No. 2 point guard Steve Blake might be back from his abdominal strain Tuesday against Indiana, but Bryant had four assists and no turnovers in the Lakers’ hot first quarter against the Mavericks. To Bryant, though, when he sets up teammates and they don’t make shots, then he has no choice but to shoot more to try to rally. ’I've been doing this my whole career, and some nights my teammates hit more shots and that adds up to more assists for me,’ Bryant said. ‘The games we win are when the whole team is making shots. Now, if our shots aren’t going in, then I have to take more of the offensive load.’ Bryant is looking forward to Nash’s return, for sure. Nash will be re-evaluated next week. ’I'll be scoring a lot more when Nash gets back,’ Bryant said. ‘I won’t have to facilitate as much, and it will allow me to do what I do best — and that’s put the ball in the hole.’”

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  • Caribbeancop

    Not surprised!!

  • island boy

    will never be like mike… period

  • Caboose

    Those 50-40-90 numbers will plummet by about late December.

  • Delia

    I think he’s trying to be like Kobe. Mike is Mike, Kobe knows the legend.

  • cab

    4 scoring options and he still wants to put up 30 per game. very smart

  • Dagger

    I can not believe how irrelevant Howard has been to this NBA season thus far.

  • Jay Cutler

    I’m yet to hear this dude claim he’s going to pick up the defensive load (despite a wholly unmerited defensive reputation). And yet people slurp him like he’s the next coming.

  • speedy

    Me, me, me, me, me.

  • Redd

    Yep, it’s sad now.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Gilbert/100001749589586 Mike Gilbert

    so does this mean his shooting % is gonna go down like last year? naw he’s gonna be lights out

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Gilbert/100001749589586 Mike Gilbert

    STAHP

  • with the bench they have he almost needs to put 30 a game

  • Caboose

    I DON’T CARE WHO KOBE HAS AS TEAMMATES, HE THE BEST SCORER SINCE MIKE (81 POINTS SO MAYBE BETTER) SO HE SHOULD ALWAYS LOOK TO SCORE. 30 A GAME? EASY. MAMBA OUT.

  • Redd

    True as could be, he can be compared to Lebron or KD but not Mj.

  • Conor

    Obviously. Every Laker’s scoring average will.

  • Conor

    I can’t wait until LA clicks & wins so that all of these trolls who’ve festered over the past two years may return to their pits.

  • ddff

    logically, you cant compare Kobe to Lebron…just way too different

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    He walks like him. Talks like him. Chews gum like him. Shoots like him. Stole most of his mannerisms. Yep, he just wants to be Kobe.

  • http://twitter.com/MarkoCollins1 Mark Collins

    Thanks for putting Steve in brackets. I had no idea who he was talking about..

  • ashemsmashem

    With the exception of maybe 2 games, kobe & metta have been the most consistent players so far. Averaging 26 points on 15 shots..I’ll take it. I’ve had the pleasure of watching kobe since I was in elementary school…almost 20 years. You will not see that often. He has always had his share of suporters & doubters, just keep pushing if you didn’t like him when he was 24 I doubt he has changed your mind now at 34 …still putting up virtually the same numbers

  • Redd

    Lebron is a shooting forward, pretty sure you can since people compare Bron and Mj.

  • …..

    you just sad Caboose. Get off Kobe’s nuts. Just another nerd..

  • Max

    This.

  • Max

    Lol

  • Max

    I love what he said.

  • justin05

    There’s nothing wrong with looking up to the GOAT and emulating his game. Michael Jordan and Joe Bryant had to be strong role models in Kobe’s life so why wouldn’t he strive to be like Mike? He has recieved 5 championship rings thus far in his career so he must have done something right. It just goes to show that you, Caboose, and other ppl who hate on Kobe just act out because you don’t like him. I can see why, his Lakers have pounded on your teams for years. I’m not just some fake Laker fan and I don’t go around calling just anyone Kobe haters but I know when someone is going out of their was to show disrespect. If you guys were real ballers then you would have more respect for the best basketball player of this generation. Believe me young blood.

  • justin05

    That has nothing to do with this article wise guy..Shaq has said himself that Kobe always wanted to be the greatest laker ever, not the greatest basketball player. Kobe will finish as a top 5-10 player all-time and will be a top 5 all-time scorer for the rest of our lives.

  • robb

    Exactly. That’s what shooting guards do, they shoot the f*cking ball. If he gets better looks when Nash returns he should take them.

  • justin05

    It looks like Gasol will be sitting out for awhile because it takes a long time to recover from tendinitis. That means Kobe and Dwight are the only 2 real scoring options. Artest has been getting his fine so Bryant or Howard should be the first option on offense everytime Nash has the ball. I think Kobe will keep getting his 25-30 a game if Nash is playing or not. The game will just be a little easier for him and that will help us come playoff time.

  • robb

    If he was a fundamentally sound center he’d knew how to adapt his game, and be more effective, but he relies too much on athleticism and he’s not 100% yet.

  • justin05

    He can hold 50% and 85% all season but I believe he will drop on the 3s. I just want him to make them when they count.

  • justin05

    Right on Delia. Bamn just has a thing for Kobe or something

  • Drig’r

    You also didn’t believe when I said Kobe would shoot above 50% at the start of the season……..

  • http://www.theking.cc/ Marques Campbell

    I’ll go further than that and say this: I get pleasure watching Kobe Bryant. As far as I’m concerned if he shoots every single time I’m cool with that. The lakers don’t bring me joy.Kobe Bryant brings me joy.When Mike played he brought me joy.Yeah I’d love for the lakers to win another ring but that is not as important for me as watching who I consider to be the greatest basketball player of all time still doing his thing. That’s what I’m thankful for. Let me be clear. I do not consider Kobe Bryant to be greater than me.I look up to no man.I am however able to recognize,appreciate and affirm greatness. http://www.theking.cc

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    Hope everyone can sense sarcasm when they see it.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    Another person who mistakes truth for “hating”. Tim Duncan is the best player since Jordan in my opinion, not Kobe. That’s not “hating”. Since high school, whenever I’ve seen Kobe, he’s talked, walked, and acted just like Jordan. There’s a difference between emulating a game and emulating an entire personality. Plenty of people have taken parts from the games of legends. Rarely has anyone completely copied how another man acts. That’s what Kobe did. That’s not “hating”. That’s paying attention. Kobe’s done a great job at working hard to copy Jordan. But he’s fallen short. He can win 6 rings and he still won’t be Mike. It would have been better for him to create his own persona rather than trying to be the next Jordan. Dude put sunglasses on his head to announce that he was going into the league. Pretty corny. There’s a reason why Philly hates him. You don’t even know who my team is lol. So how can you say that Kobe has beaten up on my team? I’ve never seen Caboose mention a team he favors over every other team so you can’t say that Kobe’s beaten up on his teams either. These are called facts. I suggest you learn how to recognize them. I’d also suggest that you and others like you on here learn to distinguish between truth and “hating”. Just because you don’t like what someone says doesn’t mean it’s hating. It could just mean that you should stop being so sensitive about Kobe. He’s a great player and is the 2nd best two guard of all time. But when people talk about him, they will have to also talk about the guy he copied. On the other hand, guys like Duncan and LeBron have done it their way and with authentic personalities behind them. It’s just the truth.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    Kobe’s not top 5. No way in the world. Top 10 is a possibility, but not top 5.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jay.brodes Jay Brodes

    i would like him to lead the league in scoring if it does not kill team chemistry…W’s are most important thou

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    I’m not sure you can compare LeBron to anyone with the kind of game he has. Kobe’s patterned everything after MJ, so if people wanted to compare him to anyone, it would be Mike. It’s a weak comparison given how Kobe’s won his titles and how Jordan won his and how efficient Jordan was compared to Kobe. But that’s the only comparison. I don’t know who KD can be compared to at this point. But it’s early in his career. He could end up being compared to Bird if he continues to increase his rebounding numbers and wins a few titles in OKC.

  • raquet

    Caboose is a magic fan, how can you not know thar

  • Redd

    Too late..

  • Caboose

    You make me weep for the future.

  • Caboose

    Sigh…I have too much faith in people.

  • Datkid

    I’m no kobe stan… but I really hope they don’t. I kinda hope he maintains it.

  • Slick Ric

    I have failed you…..I was about to go in on you caboose. lol

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=509819249 Gaurav P.

    Well, to be fair, he’s been shooting the ball really well and can still
    score at a high level at the age of 34…so in a offense designed for
    high scoring…why not?

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=509819249 Gaurav P.

    When he was younger, sure. Not so much now. I don’t understand the hate towards Kobe cause he “tried to be like Mike”. Not only did he emulate himself after a great player, he did it pretty damn well.

  • Bored

    i apologise for missing that in a previous comment. shows how immature i get at any hint of a biased Kobe fan. i gots to chill out.

  • Bored

    Nash aint coming back man.

  • Conor

    SLAM, you should rename your IP to “listofkobebryantquotesthatgrantsthesamegroupoffivepeopleaforumtoexpresshowmuchtheydislikehim.com”

  • Bored

    he wont ever be the greatest Laker. so he wont accomplish that either. he is a great player but all of his fans bleed for him too much. you guys are part of the reason why it seems like people have things against him. its absurd to think how much you guys overestimate him. i know Laker fans are used to greatness but now you all are addicted to ludicrous high praise of your franchise. this season will be good for you guys. it will ground you and the Lakers will come back with a little bit of dog in them.

  • Bored

    LBJ and Magic? obviously they arent the same but i feel like they share more qualities than when we compare them with anyone else. the 2 most incomparable players.

  • Caboose

    I am a Magic fan actually, but I’ll never put a team ahead of the game. I can put aside emotion (team support) for logic when it comes to basketball.

  • Caboose

    Cause I don’t argue from a point of emotion regarding a team?

  • Caboose

    That I didn’t.

  • Caboose

    Unless you’re Kobe, why do you so vehemently defend a grown man? Little odd.

  • Caboose

    I admit, it’d be cool for all the old guys to have their renaissance.

  • Caboose

    Oh yes, the trolls are the ones who don’t worship the Lakers like a bunch of 14th century serfs. Go back to your cornfield, peasant.

  • Caboose

    Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Russell, Shaq. Then spots 9-11 are open to Kobe, Oscar, and Hakeem. As far as all-time scorers go, Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Malone, Oscar, then maybe Kobe.

  • Armando

    …It’s a pretty cocky statement to call someone’s personality fake (the opposite of authentic) withouth knowing the person privately…

  • Datkid

    If grant hill doesn’t get injured, him and T-mac might’ve taken over the world in Orlando.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    I would have loved to see a healthy Grant Hill playing wit T-Mac. T-Mac would still be in the league now if he had help in Orlando during those years and didn’t have to try to do everything on his own.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    He’s closest to Magic with his height and passing ability. I can’t think of anyone else to compare him to. Oscar Robertson maybe.

  • OTB

    Eh…I don’t know about Shaq being there. I’d argue you could replace Kobe for Shaq given Kobe’s longevity and sustained elite production.

  • OTB

    Conversely, he could also ask you why you have so much venom towards a grown man on every thread. It goes both ways.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=509819249 Gaurav P.

    His back issues were related to a horrible training regimen more so than doing it on his own in Orlando. I remember reading an article where he switched trainers during the latter part of his stay in Houston and how much corrective work the new trainer had him do because he was apparently messing up his body with the exercises he had been doing given his injury history.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=509819249 Gaurav P.

    I feel its unfair for people to bring up stuff he did at the age of 17 (sunglasses on his head) and hold it against him. He was a brash cocky kid who literally grew up in the NBA – that’s a tough adjustment to make. Lebron had the same issue as well (Chosen 1 tattoo, speaking in third person, etc). They were kids when they entered the draft. To hold something he did from the ages of 17-21 or 22 over him 17 years later is a bit odd. Kobe has crafted his own persona since then and he is who he is – a well spoken maniacal basketball nerd who swears a lot and doesn’t give a sh*t anymore.

    Again, it just seems that your resentment stems from the fact that he dared tried to challenge Jordan when he first came in the league.

  • King

    this is why i think the lakers who fail this year. instead of him thinking about teamwork when nash gets back he’s thinking about how many points he’ll be scoring. he’s already averaging 26 and that’s good enough

  • EJ

    How many different ways are there to chew gum? I think people take this too far when the comparisons go outside of basketball.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    He’s copied Jordan’s championship celebrations. He is now simply in public and private what Jordan was only in private. People talked about how Jordan really was when the cameras were off. A pretty narcissistic guy. Kobe is now that way whether the cameras are on or off. The incident in 2004 that took away his golden boy image allowed him to be who he is. Jordan was allowed to keep that image in the public because he had no scandal to deal with on a major level. I hold no resentment for Kobe. I’m just calling it like I see it. I actually appreciate his game. It’s not wrong or “hating” to point out the things that aren’t positive about him as some people on here believe it to be. But I’m under no illusions. As Jalen Rose always says, he’s Michael Jordan the remix.

  • Caboose

    Shaq was elite for 14 years. That’s how long Kobe has been elite. Shaq led the league in PER 5 years in a row. Kobe hasn’t. Shaq consistently posted more win shares, win shares/48, better offensive rating, better defensive rating, and led the league in FG% 10 times. The argument for Kobe over Shaq is one more ring and more points.

  • Caboose

    Don’t mistake logical reasoning for venom; I don’t emotionally or irrationally attack Kobe. I 1. Mock overly passionate Kobe supporters and 2. Use evidence to show that Kobe may not be as great as many think.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=509819249 Gaurav P.

    Touche – good points.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    maybe you should look up Chris Duhon’s career.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    how in the hell is 18 and 10 with 2.7 blocks irrelevant?

  • LakeShow

    Do you mean “being talked about” relevancy, or do you mean by his play relevancy?

  • Conor

    Some need to balance the oddly personal dislike for the Lakers & certain players of theirs with our appreciation of their history/present culture.

  • LakeShow

    You have some news that we don’t?

  • LakeShow

    Reason (A) why I hate PER:

    Al Jefferson is higher all time than Steve Nash

    Reason (A) why I hate Win/Shares:

    Reggie Miller higher than Kobe Bryant.

  • LakeShow

    lol

  • Caboose

    What exactly would you like me to do?

  • Caboose

    Here’s a perfect example of how people cannot interpret the things they read.

  • Caboose

    Bet you f*cking LOVE points per game though.

  • LakeShow

    Har Har!!

    Good counter.

    Not as much as your moms vahjayjay though.

  • Caboose

    It’s amazing the discrepancy in your intelligence between Lakers things and other basketball things.

  • LakeShow

    Seriously, He’s that kid in Algebra that when the teacher told everyone to be quiet he said “SHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!” louder than anyone was talking.
    If you dislike extreme people you may not want to become extreme against them.

  • LakeShow

    It’s amazing your hate for Lakers things compared to other basketball things.

  • LakeShow

    Rashard Lewis has more Win shares than Chris Webber.

    Antawn Jamison>Manu Ginobli

    Jason Terry>Dwight Howard

    Amare Stoudamire>Earl Monroe

    Christian Laettner> Andre Iguadala

    Cool stat…

  • LakeShow

    Oh yeah and Karl Malone had more than Michael Jordan…
    That’s a nice one too.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=509819249 Gaurav P.

    hahaha

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=509819249 Gaurav P.

    Good to know you’ve been talking with the Lakers medical staff about Nash’s condition to provide such detailed analysis about his return.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=509819249 Gaurav P.

    I originally thought he was referring to Kevin Nash from the WCW. Thank god for those parentheses.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=509819249 Gaurav P.

    Huh? He’s had some monstrous games thus far.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    obviously you don’t understand win shares.

  • Conor

    Jerry West, Shaq, Gail Goodrich, and many others who have actually played basketball professionally agree that he is the greatest Laker ever. Why is this even disputed?

  • Conor

    While you use arguments that I may not agree with, I still respect them because they are intelligent (unlike @Red7252:disqus ‘s or @disqus_pjIQMFNqgq:disqus ‘s, whose personal biases render their arguments irrational & redundant).

    To answer your question: nothing different because at least you provide a modicum of credibility to an untenable legion (i.e. Ron Paul w/Republicans).

  • Conor

    Also: Bryant is Top Five with Kareem, Magic, Jordan, and Olajuwon.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    No Oscar, no Bird in your top 5? But Kobe is? There’s a difference between a fan and a borderline worshiper. You and the other Kobe/Laker fans here are borderline worshipers.

  • LakeShow

    Your right.
    Explain to me why does Amare have more than Earl Monroe?

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    The name Magic Johnson pretty much ends this discussion about who the greatest Laker ever is. Magic can be as humble as he wants to be. Other people know he’s the greatest. There’s nothing Kobe can do in his final few years to eclipse what Magic Johnson did and the impact he had.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    Comments like these are why Lakers/Kobe fans cannot be taken seriously. What is it about him that has people so extreme with their love for him?

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    Not praising Kobe’s every move on here means that you have venom. You should know this bro.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    because Amar’e has played on teams that win a lot more often than Monroe did.
    .
    Win Shares are simple.
    .
    We will use Kobe Bryant as an example.
    .
    You take the amount of games won by a team in a season (so in this case it’s the Lakers, 2011-12) and split them up among the player’s based on production
    .
    The Lakers won 41 games last season so there was 41 win shares to divy up.
    .
    -(1)Take the amount of points produced (not scored, produced) by a player,
    -(2)Take the amount of possessions used by that player.
    -(3)Calculate Marginal Offense for Each Player (points produced) – *(league points per possession) * (offensive possessions)
    -(4)Calculate Marginal Points per Win Produced (*League Points Per Game* ~ **Team Pace**/**League Pace**) – basically, how much each point is worth for each team in terms of winning and losing
    -Then you Calculate Win Shares (marginal offense) / (marginal points per win).
    .
    Basically Kobe was “only” 3rd on the Lakers in Win Shares despite having the best statistics because he played such a huge chunk of minutes and used such a huge chunk of possessions that the performance of the team didn’t differentiate much with him on the court, and rather excelled with their Bigs, Pau and Bynum because they were so efficient and had such a profound effect on team output

    Ok so it doesn’t sound simple, but it is.

  • Conor

    Kobe would dominate both of them, based purely on prime offensive (Bird is his equal in that regard)/defensive (neither approach Kobe’s lockdown peak) skill metric, and he has been more successful than either of them.

    So, no. Neither Bird nor Robertson are in my Top Five.

  • Conor

    Look at the definition of “fanatic” and it may shed some light on Lakers’ fans alignments.

    Kareem did say that Oscar was the greatest who ever played, but what does he know? HaHaHa

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=509819249 Gaurav P.

    So Kobe can’t eclipse Magic as a player because Magic came first and had a bigger impact on the league in the 80s?

  • LakeShow

    Really? comments like these… lmao
    Your a hoot.

  • LakeShow

    That’s actually pretty close to what I thought…

    So…. Why does Al Jefferson have a higher win share than Steve Nash?

    This is the reason I cannot take the stat seriously.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=509819249 Gaurav P.

    Its not about praising his every move – I am critical of him when he’s stupid (i.e – throwing Gasol under the bus) too. However, every thread I come into on this site, one of you big dawgs (as in, the commenters who are knowledgeable and make intelligent arguments), will be harping/discrediting Kobe for something that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. For example, earlier in this thread, some troll brought up MJ unprovoked and you piled on the conversation.

    Sure, it makes for a much livelier board, but its annoying as f*ck having to constantly stand up for a player when his every move is mocked, often for no reason other than because of how much some of his fans like him. The same way you feel about some Laker fans always praising Bryant, is the same way I feel about some of you (not all) constantly harping and discrediting Bryant at every possibility.

    Personally, I am a Bryant fan, yes, but I’m not blinded by my fandom. He makes a lot of mistakes and has been dumb quite a few times. But its irksome when Laker fans get criticized as a whole for being too up his a**, when the critics are just as much up his a** the other way. Its a cycle.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    what do you mean? you mean last season? cuz over their career, and in the seasons Nash has played on good teams, it’s not even kinda close. The most Jefferson has ever had in a season is 7.8……..Nash has had 5 seasons over 10. Those 5 seasons equal more win shares than Jefferson’s whole career combined.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    because playing in the NBA doesn’t make you a basketball genius. it doesn’t even mean your opinion should be taken seriously.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    no, because Magic was a better winner who had a more profound effect on his teams success. oh and he was an infinitely better teammate.

  • Conor

    I’ll take theirs over an anonymous internet commentator’s each day of my life.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    awe!!! good for you. – don’t ask a question if you don’t want the answer.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=509819249 Gaurav P.

    What is a “better winner”?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    do you really need me to explain how Magic was a better winner? Like you need me to outline how Kobe hasn’t won without an all-star big man next to him? You need me to go over Kobe’s tantrum in the summer of 2005? Or Kobe’s whole selfish detonation of the Lakers in 2004? Or you need me to explain to you what Magic Johnson did as a rookie? Or outline how Magic won 5 championships in 12 years, while Kobe is sitting on number 5 at year 17? Magic Johnson retired (well until the brief comeback) when he was 31 years old and still finished with 5 titles. Magic’s career also started 2 years later than Bryant’s did.
    .
    Without any sort of biased perspective it is pretty clear that Magic was the better pro, especially at the height of his powers, while Bryant, obviously, just lasted longer.

  • LakeShow

    My eyes were playing tricks on me…

    How bout with Reggie Miler over Gary Payton?

    What about Ray Allen above Steve Nash?

    Earl Monroe below Chris Bosh?…

    I just don’t understand how it has substance on it’s own as a stat…

    It needs context.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Are you just looking at offensive win shares bruh?

  • Caboose

    I’m just gonna give up on LakeShow when it comes to Kobe. It’s like trying to convince someone in the 16th century that the world is round, even though we have the evidence for it.

  • Caboose

    Which is why we haven’t attacked you. Look, me, nbk, and BAMN are all happy to say Kobe is top 15 All Time. He is. What we really dislike is irrational fandom, like trying to justify as either 1. Top 5-10 All Time, 2. Greatest Laker, 3. Best Player Since Jordan. From these, 2 and 3 can be argued. 1 is where we draw the line.

  • LakeShow

    “NBA Career Leaders and Records for Win Shares”

    Basketball Reference.

  • Caboose

    I was completely supportive of you until you said Kobe top 5. Would you rather have me mock you for your obviously unfounded argument or would you rather have me logically disprove you? Your choice.

  • LakeShow

    Says the man who can’t go a single day with out trying to make a top 10 all time NBA player look like just another schmuck…

    I gave up on your type years ago. If you can’t see greatness with your on two eyes, and have to dissect everything with a Hollinger statistic… That’s on you.

  • Caboose

    But Olajuwon is. Kid is funny.

  • Caboose

    I’m sorry that I trust logic, facts, and data more than my own subjective, undeniably biased eyes. That’s A LOT of arrogance on you if you think that what you see is the end-all, be-all for basketball discussion.

  • Dagger

    It’s all relative. If we were talking about almost any other player, yeah, sure, those are nice numbers. But we’re talking about a guy who, two years ago, was averaging 23/14 while shooting 60% from the FT line (he’s less than 50% now). His win shares have declined from .236 to .163. As a result he’s not an MVP candidate and his team has been mediocre so far. “Irrelevant” is, admittedly, a bit hyperbolic, but despite his injury I’ve been surprised by how slowly he’s started the season.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    You’re basing it on Kobe being able to score on them? You do know that there are more things to do on the court rather than score, right? This is one of the problems with Kobe fanatics. You’re a good example of a fanatic. The success argument is the same as the rings argument. Tired and weak argument to use. What is success to you? Scoring a lot of points? Taking a lot of shots to score those points? Oscar was a 30, 11, 9 player his first 8 seasons and you think that a guy who was, at his best, just a great scorer and good defender belongs in any top 5 more than he does? Kobe’s most well-rounded season was 02-03 when he averaged 30, 7 and 6. And your only argument is Kobe would dominate Oscar and Bird on offense? Wow. Kobe doesn’t belong ahead of two guys who did more than one thing great. When LeBron is finished, he too will belong ahead of Kobe because he is now more of a great two-way player than Kobe was in his prime. He averaged 30 without even having a good, consistent jumpshot.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Reggie Miller vs Gary Payton – Payton had a much shorter prime. And Miller played on a top notch eastern conference team as it’s leading scorer for over a decade. Basically, Miller won a lot more games, and did so as the best player on his team.

    .Steve Nash vs Ray Allen – Allen has been on more consistently successful teams, and his prime has lasted longer. Nash for as great as he’s been, has only been an elite(ish) PG for 8 years.

    .

    .

    In terms of Chris Bosh, he has been the only good player on the majority of teams over his career, and the last 2-1/2 seasons he’s played as one of 3 players on his team that even matter. So he, as an individual, get’s an even bigger chunk of Win Shares than he would have on more well rounded teams.

    .

    If you notice, Isiah Thomas is actually 131st all-time, and this represents the overall level of talent on the team around him. He had to share a lot more win shares than he would have otherwise.

    .

    Which is kind of the same situation as it is with Kobe, if he didn’t play with Shaq – Pau – Bynum he would have a much larger chunk of win shares compared to the amount of games his teams have won.

    .

    As you said, the stat needs context. Which is why you only see me (i don’t wanna speak for anyone else, as i see various stats abused ad nauseum) use it in certain situations.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=509819249 Gaurav P.

    OK, to counter your points.

    1. Kobe hasn’t won without an All-Star big…kind of like Magic hasn’t won a title without *HOF* players around him. Kobe’s last 2 titles were won with zero HOF players surrounding him (Gasol might be a HOF player, but he is not Kareem, Worthy, etc). Even when Magic took over a rookie against the Sixers, it had been Kareem who had been the MVP of the series up until that point – Magic finished them off in the final game.

    2. Magic Johnson has gotten head coaches fired and wanted his way as well. He also cost himself his own damn career by catching HIV.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    the guy isn’t in shape yet. it’s pretty ridiculous to expect someone coming off of back surgery who hasn’t ran in 6+months to come in and be the same person he was before. if anything, i’ve been quite surprised by how productive he has been, albeit inconsistently.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=509819249 Gaurav P.

    Well, I mean, he’s sharing the court with 2 other elite players. Gasol is not Brandon Bass, and Kobe is no Pietrus. His numbers were bound to drop.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    Magic was the definition of a team player and leader. He played center in an NBA Finals game and had 42 points, 15 rebounds and 7 assists…as a rookie.That’s why Kobe can’t surpass him. What exactly can Kobe do in your mind to be a better Laker than Magic? Strictly on the court, what can he do? Because another ring won’t do it. Scoring more points won’t do it. He could win 2 more championships and still it won’t be the same as Magic’s 5 because of how they were won.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    1 – no no no you don’t understand. Kobe has never even won a playoff series without an All-Star big man. Magic got to the finals (with James Worthy) with Sam Perkins, Vlade Divac, and AC Green as his bigs…..
    2 – He did catch HIV, but he didn’t end his career selfishly. To say that is 100% ignorant. Which is ironic, because ignorance is why his career was cut short in the first place.

    .

  • LakeShow

    Awesome. Great summary on the ins and out, really appreciate it man.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    no doubt. i’m always here to elaborate on that type of stuff. i just want everyone to understand the advanced stats (especially those that use it, without actually understanding it, or using it in the context it should be) that are floating around. if you don’t like them after that? cool with me.

  • LakeShow

    :*(

  • Conor

    HaHaHaHa

    Where did I reject your answer? I only said that I would side with a professional’s in lieu of a child’s.

  • LakeShow

    BTW it was the all time PER I was looking at when I saw Al Jefferson was higher than Steve Nash…
    If you have time explain that for me, if not, tomorrow works lol.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    What kind of dumbass reply is that? They aren’t professional opinion givers and I’m not a child. But you are clearly an idiot.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Gonna have to be tomorrow, I’m replying from my email on my phone while I’m driving home from work lol
    Sent from right behind you.

  • LakeShow

    In your opinion.

    Coming from a huge Magic Johnson fan who is still unsure of who will be the greatest Laker.

    I still think it’s Magic, and might always be Magic, but IN MY OPINION, it does depend on how Kobe goes out.

  • Conor

    I really don’t understand why I’m compelled to explain basketball on a basketball website, but here it goes…

    Offence constitutes: scoring, passing, offensive rebounding, strong/weak-side reads, screening, and positioning. (If you think for half a damn second that Kobe Bryant isn’t superior in those regards to a 6’1″ point guard who had no jump shot & who only achieved those statistics because of the Era during which he played, you’re impossible; Bird is Kobe’s equal offensively)

    Defence constitutes: Scoring prevention, helping, breaking through/slipping under screens (based on reading the opposition’s tendencies), rebounding, positioning, and stealing/blocking when the opportunities strike.

    Kobe Bryant is only matched in inherent, all-encompassing skill – historically – by Magic Johnson (equal), Michael Jordan (equal), Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (equal), Hakeem Olajuwon (equal), Wilt Chamberlain (superior), LeBron James (superior), and Tim Duncan (superior, Popovich has said that Kobe is the best). His contemporaries acknowledge it. Even people who don’t like the man acknowledge it. But to say that he isn’t a top-five talent in the NBA’s history is (@disqus_oxoGJMLagc:disqus) unfounded & illogical. He was greatest of the 2000s because of these factors.

    You may list statistics which support your theories, but I can show you matchups, games, and series which undoubtedly prove mine.

    Here are three:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJNoFs3G91A

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBtIcczizmk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjfxlvvXfSw

  • Conor

    You take Robertson or Bird, and I’ll take Olajuwon completely comfortably.

  • LakeShow

    This was meant for your post a couple comments above lol.

  • Conor

    They’re paid to either coach or compete for their respective livings while you elect to comment with subjective vitriol. Sounds like a child to me.

    “don’t ask the question if you don’t want the answer” … When did I write, “@disqus_rOeXXBD2qs:disqus, I never asked for YOUR answers”? Ah! I fail to see it!

    A “professional opinion giver” would be an “Analyst”, which West, Goodrich, Shaq, and Johnson all have been. Good effort, kid.

  • Conor

    Best player, by decade: 60s (Wilt), 70s (Kareem), 80s (Magic), 90s (Jordan), 00s (Kobe).

    I’d take Olajuwon over Wilt, Russell, Bird, Walton, Stockton, Malone, Erving, Shaq, Robertson, Ewing, Robinson, Duncan, James, and Durant in a heartbeat.

  • Conor

    Kobe did equal work with Shaq in two of their three championships (see: Shaq calling Kobe “the best in the world” in 2001), so if you discredit the first championship, that still leaves Bryant with four.

    Equal to Duncan & Shaq… more than Bird, Wilt, Walton, Stockton, Malone, Erving, Roberton, Ewing, Robinson, James, and Durant… and he’s more talented as an individual talent – offensively & defensively – over the course of his career than any of them… provide me your logic.

  • Conor

    *6’5″

  • Conor

    Sorry, meant this one (Nuggets): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFbLiuFHbT0

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    - I’m paid to compete for my respective living.
    - Commenting on a website and commenting to a reporter are no different. It’s just a comment. – If you think they are paid for their opinion and not just to be a former player infront of a camera, fine. They are analyst and they know everything. As Magic said, LeBron will never win a title. They are always right.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    Wait, you think Kobe is equal to Jordan in overall skill? Seriously? And you think he matches Magic Johnson too? The walking double-double compared to the pure scorer? I don’t need to look up game highlights on YouTube. That is outright silly to say or think that Kobe and Jordan are equal in “all-encompassing skill”. Absolutely ridiculous. And that is why these type of Kobe fans make themselves look foolish. So many people have talked about Jordan being the prototype for a basketball player. His body along with his skill level. Barkley called him the strongest guard he’s ever played against. His hands were huge. Everyone knows about his athleticism with his jumping ability and his control in the air. I’d also say that LeBron came into the league more naturally talented than Kobe. He came in as a better passer, rebounder and more athletic. His improvement with adding more muscle along with his jumpshot and his defense puts him past Kobe. Man vs. man, player vs. player, Jordan and LeBron trump Kobe. The summer Kobe bulked up and came back looking like a beast in 2002-2003, he had his best overall season. Him at his best compared to what LeBron did last season which was LeBron’s best season? I’m taking LeBron from last season. He averaged 31 points in his 3rd season with an inconsistent jumpshot and no post moves. Pop can say what he wants about Kobe, I highly doubt that he would take Kobe over Duncan. The Spurs built a dynasty around Duncan. 4 titles in 8 seasons. The Lakers dynasty ended early partly because of Kobe. You talk about game highlights as if they mean more than stats…are you aware that the stats actually come from those games?

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    I’m taking Wilt, Bird, Shaq, Robertson, Duncan, and LeBron over Olaujuwon and I wouldn’t think about it too much at all. If Kobe and Shaq were able to get along better, they could have run off 5 or 6 in a row with Shaq leading them. That’s not a shot at The Dream. That’s just how special Wilt, Bird, Shaq, Oscar, Duncan and LeBron were/are. Hakeem was one of the most skilled big men in the history of basketball. But you don’t dismiss the physical dominance of Wilt and Shaq or even LeBron’s physical dominance.

  • Caboose

    Haha

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=509819249 Gaurav P.

    I know about Magic’s rookie performance. I also know that the Lakers were Kareem’s team and he had been the best player in those Finals prior to his injury. He had 33 and 14 in two games, 38 in one game, and 40 points and 15 rebounds that he got injured. It was a remarkable performance by Magic, and one of the best in NBA history, but let’s not act as if Kareem wouldn’t have sealed that championship/MVP had it not been for his injury.

    How were Magic’s championships won that make them more significant than what Kobe won? Magic was more of a leader and team player than MJ as well – does that make him a better player?

  • Caboose

    Lol, Durant. Ok.

    1. Kobe’s first 3 years were lame.
    2. He’s touted as a great scorer but he has only 2 scoring titles.
    3. He has only one MVP (debatable at that).
    4. He has only 2 Finals MVP’s (also debatable).
    5. He has only 2 rings as the best player on his team.
    6. Poor team performance after the departure of Shaq.
    7. Poor shooting percentages in clutch situations.
    8. Kobe is 4th on the All-Time Missed Shot List (not huge, but his FG% doesn’t justify it).
    9. Middling PER.
    10. Middling shooting percentages.
    11. Lower FG% in Playoffs. Even worse in Finals.
    12. A plethora of advanced stats that I know you’ll discount.

  • Caboose

    Do you know what illogical means?

  • Bored

    i was poking fun at optimistic Laker fan. sorry i didnt think people would take the ever part so seriously.

  • Bored

    ok, why?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Well just look at it. There is a pretty great (and small) stretch for New York. You’ll notice the same thing if you look up Raymond Felton’s career. Or if you paid any attention last season, I’m sure you witnessed the 3 weeks of Jeremy Lin? That is, if you really need proof of D’Antoni’s ability to get the most out of true point guards.

  • rkirby

    Kobe smells a 138 point game. #kobesystem

  • Bored

    why do Kobe fans not understand this?

  • Bored

    yeah i understand that. you are right, he will be able to something with the offense. i just think that if they are trying to compete for title, maybe they dont have all the pieces yet.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    They are close. Idk if they could beat Miami in a series, but they are about as close as it gets to having the potential to do it

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    In 3 out of 5 of his championships, Kobe had great moments with Shaq, but those were Shaq’s teams much like Scottie having great moments with MJ, but those were MJ’s teams. In the last 2, they were his teams so on only 2 out 5, he’s been the most dominant guy on his team. Magic was mostly responsible for 4 out of 5 and the only one where he wasn’t the most dominant player for the entire Finals series was his rookie season. And he gave a performance in the game where his guy Kareem was out that was an all-time great performance. There’s no way anyone can think that Magic’s 5 and Kobe’s 5 are the same. For anyone to think that Kobe can match or move past Magic as the greatest Laker of all time is wild given that he’s now playing with Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol and Steve Nash. He has more help than he’s ever had. More help than Jordan ever had. More help than Magic ever had.

  • Bored

    yeah thats another player who is hard to compare.

  • Bored

    its like the Moneyball scene, when the old guys dont want to except that there might be another way to understand the game. we all want to believe that we can automatically understand whats good and bad with a player purely based on all the basketball we have seen through our lives but it just isnt the case. we see a dunk and all the analysis goes out the window.

  • Bored

    better than Magic? they all said that he is better than Magic?

  • Bored

    he had a better on court impact than Kobe. how can you say otherwise?

  • Bored

    so are you saying they 2nd in line at the moment on paper? or just 1st in the west? i cant really see it because of their bench but if you can explain why they pip teams like Spurs, Grizzlies and Clips, i would love to know.

  • Bored

    this is why BAMN and others seem like haters because they have to respond to comments like this. can you honestly say that Kobe is better than Oscar or Magic or even Shaq. where is your reasons?

  • Bored

    what are you saying. you cant just say players names and say these guys are better and i take him over him. no one will take you seriously if you keep saying ish like that. you are the definition of illogical.

  • Bored

    ill never figure out how Kobe fans call this hating.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=509819249 Gaurav P.

    …I was right up with you until you said Kobe has more help around him now than Magic ever had. Really?!?! Really?!?!?!? You honestly believe that having James Worthy, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Byron Scott, Michael Cooper is comparable to a 38 year old Nash and a past-his-prime Gasol? Dwight is a great player, but even on his best day, he is not 75% of the player Kareem was.

  • justin05

    I figured your first reply was just a joke because Nash will come back more motivated than ever. He and D’Antoni have a great chance to compete again and now they have teamates in Howard, Gasol, Bryant, Artest, Jamison? These players are towards the end of their careers now but that gives them an edge come playoff time. I’ll take defense, poise, experience, and Kobe in the last 5 minutes over athleticism, youth, and potential. I see the Lakers as 3rd-4th best in the West despite their record but they will only continue to play stronger if healthy.

  • justin05

    I understand you just don’t like Kobe as a person. It’s hard for me to defend him because of how he talks but he was my favorite player growing up so I’m not going to let ppl bash on him when it has nothing to do with the article. 30 points a game is a great goal for him.

  • justin05

    Isn’t that how you win a game? Whichever team scores the most points? I thought you were intelligent Caboose..

  • justin05

    Kobe could be top 5 if he wins another ring or two. When i said 5-10 I meant somewhere between them

  • justin05

    Yup, I was saying the same thing Drig’r. Lakeshow and Conor have been defending as well but Caboose and bamn just see things differently. It isn’t their fault I suppose..we’re all just people with our own opinions. At least we all share a pasiion for this game.

  • justin05

    You already lost your argument awhile ago but when I said 5-10 all-time I meant in between. If he finishes his career w/ 7 rings then I would consider him a top 5 player all-time. At the end of the day these “all-time” lists are all a matter of opinion though. Bryant is already a top 5 scorer btw pal, I say he finishes #4 at the end of his career (he’ll pass Jordan but I can’t say Kobe was a better scorer than Mike). There is a clear line on this basketball website and it started a while back w/ the Wade vs. Kobe debate. I just can’t stand it when I read an article (a good one at that) about my favorite NBA player and then read continuous negative comments about the guy when he said nothing wrong. SHOW MORE RESPECT. You stat guys care so much about numbers but do you realize how difficult it is to win a championship?

  • justin05

    LOL quit making Caboose look bad. These guys are smart but they just don’t see the game the same way as we do. They call it a Laker fan thing so we might as well just call them stat nerds. I don’t even know why we waste our time on a guy who has Halo as his picture. Play more ball and less video games bro..

  • justin05

    You said it perfectly man. These guys should show more respect for one of the greats.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    You can’t compare Dwight to Kareem in that way. A better way to do it would be to compare Kareem’s place in the league during that time period compared to Dwight’s place in today’s game. In today’s game, Dwight is the best big man in basketball. Which means that if Kobe wins, it would be his 4th championship playing with the best center in basketball. Steve Nash is one of the best, if not the best, passers in basketball and one of the best free throw shooters ever. Gasol, while he may not be the player he was when he first got to LA, is still one of the most skilled big men in basketball. Michael Cooper was a great defender, but he’s not a Hall of Famer. Which means that Magic played with only one Hall of Famer in Kareem. Kobe is now playing with one guy in Nash who will easily get in, one in Gasol who should get in being the best Spanish player to ever play, and one in Dwight who, if he wins 1 or 2 championships or gets a few more Defensive Player of the Year awards, will also be in. That’s Kobe playing with 3 Hall of Famers compared to Magic playing with 1.

  • Caboose

    I’ve got nothing against the man himself. It’s his irrational supporters I can’t stand. Do I attack Kobe personally? No. Do I speculate about his relationship with teammates? No. What do I do that makes you so against me? I can tell you why I’m against you. It’s quite simple: I have facts and stats. You do not. You argue from subjectivity. I argue from objectivity. In the academic world, that makes you wrong. I guess in online-basketball-land, subjective viewing is worth more than actual data. If that’s true, then you’re right, and I’ve been wrong all along.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=509819249 Gaurav P.

    I think you’re forgetting that James Worthy was a HOF player and a NBA Finals MVP with Magic on his team. Kobe is on a team with a past his prime Nash and Gasol (admittedly, Kobe is past his prime as well), and a Dwight in his prime. Yes, Nash and potentially Gasol are hall of famers, but to say that this team is any way comparable to the Laker teams of the 80s is laughable. This team in 2006? Sure. Not so much in 2012.

  • Caboose

    Ok, I’m done with the Kobe argument. Do I give a sh*t if I can’t convince you that Kobe isn’t top 5 all time? No. I’ve learned that while some people can listen to reason and not rely solely on what they’ve learned from the media or their own subjective eyes, most cannot. You included. The arguments I’ve heard are never based on anything objective; they need to be justified by something that is unquantifiable. I’ll share this here: I’m also an atheist for the same reason. The existence of a god cannot be proven rationally; it is solely based on subjective, biased observation. I believe in logic and facts and they say, there is no god. The same thing applies here. I don’t “believe” in the greatness of Kobe just because it’s the thing that we’re all told to think. I question. I look. I find the real facts behind players’ careers and it’s quite simple: stats do not support Kobe. I don’t think highly enough of my own observation to make an informed judgment about a player’s legacy, especially since I’ve never seen many of the past players live. Neither have most people here. So, I don’t just rely on what my eyes tell me. They can lie, because of biases. Instead, I look to what can be quantified, what removes any subjective bias. If you or any others prefer to reject what the logical world tells you and instead rely on popular opinion and your own beliefs, fine. But don’t expect me to respect such an obviously weak, unjustifiable, unprovable, personal, and utterly unscientific viewpoint.

  • Datkid

    yeah but it’s more than that and again I’m no kobe stan but I also figured that as skilled and knowledgeable as he is, if he wasn’t such an egomaniac he could be crazy efficient. like It’d be kinda cool if after all these years of being a chucking jerk, at the end of his career he turns in a super efficient 50-40-90 season w/ great passing #’s.

  • Datkid

    you are a jackass sir.

  • Datkid

    I hear you… but I’d take a fully healthy nash,pau,and dwight over an ancient kareem and james worthy. I’m with BAMN on this one.

  • Caboose

    By that logic, Wilt is the GOAT.

  • Bored

    i think this might be the first time i agree with you. no offense, just differing opinions. well except that Jamison part.

  • Bored

    do you mean top scorer in actual points accumulated? not a subjective rating of the top 5 scorers? do you mean he will move pass MJ because he has more total points? because i shouldnt be having to tell you that there is a HUGE games difference.

  • Conor

    @disqus_oxoGJMLagc:disqus, too:

    You, and those who think like you, will never be swayed because you cannot muster enough debating nobility to look past your dislike of the man. If you honestly think that your opinions are worth more on the matter than those who have coached & played with Bryant: think again.

    I could just as easily argue that Jordan & his Bulls were especially dominant during an expansion era that saw the old guard, the golden guard of the NBA replaced with a lesser roster of players… I could say that it’s precisely because LeBron James has an inconsistent jump shot or that Shaquille O’Neal couldn’t score from outside of five feet & both benefited from rulebook exceptions (travels & charges, respectively) while being inferior defensively – in every facet of the discipline – to Kobe that makes the latter the best of the three… That Jordan himself said that Kobe is his only logical comparison, man-to-man… I could say all these things, support it with the opinions of professional players and coaches, video recordings, and the like, but I know that you cannot be swayed. No matter what people other than John Hollinger, Henry Abbott, and that little voice at the back of your head that makes you dislike the man say to you… no, prove to you – with logic, with evidence – you will never change your minds because you are incapable of seeing reason and proof which is not your own.

    Ultimately, you’ll tell me that a man who forced his franchise to fire its coach is a more commendable understudy than another who allowed his to leave by his own accord. You’ll tell me that a man who once punched his point guard in the face was a greater teammate because he called him to apologize about assaulting him later that day. You will give me numbers written by like-minded zealots that have already been discredited by a series of comments by @disqus_j65FuvcSML:disqus. You will do all of this, and I will laugh and continue to disprove your eternal, boring theories with logic at its most basic because, in the end, it’s hilarious to get you to repeat the same thing for the 5000th time with the same, unmolested certainty of the 1st. In the end, I’m right.

    Have a good day.

  • Drig’r

    Isn’t this another stat which factors in FG% indirectly instead of TS% or eFG%????

    Help me out here and explain how there’s such a huge disparity in the WS of Kobe, Jordan and Scottie…….

  • Drig’r

    GOAT list is subjective.

    All time scorers : Kobe 6th? WTF?? Dude’s the best scorer in L history. He has a more complete game than Jordan esp. from range and just as efficient if allowed to play his game ( like he’s doing now ).

    How the hell have 4 guys come between Kobe and Jordan?? Their TS% and eFG% are virtually identical.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    The best way to compare them would be to compare them to the teams in the league at that time. At this time, the Lakers have the best starting 5 in basketball. Kobe is playing with easily the most talented team he’s ever played on. That’s not really up for discussion.

  • ByAnyMeansNecessary

    …What evidence has anyone given besides Kobe scores a lot and he has 5 championships? lol. People can’t even talk truthfully about how he’s won them or why he’s won them without his fanatics losing their minds. @LakeShow has never said anything about Kobe that proves anything besides cheering for others like you. Rarely has he said anything original. No one has given any evidence here on Kobe being equal to Jordan in anything or being a top 5 player of all-time. Nothing. All anyone has said is that he has 5 rings and he is a great scorer. That’s it. If you think that those arguments have somehow proven what they were meant to prove, you’re out of your mind. Plenty of people have presented evidence showing that Jordan was superior, LeBron is superior, D-Wade has been superior for the past few seasons, Oscar Robertson and Larry Bird were definitely superior, and all Kobe fans have said amounts to “No, you’re wrong. I like Kobe. He has 5 rings. He has scored a lot of points. You’re a hater.” A 4 year old could come up with arguments like that. In what world is any of that proof for anything at all? That is precisely why his fans on here are a complete joke. I hope he has better fans than you all because you’re all pitiful when you try to stick up for him here.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    no it isn’t another stat that indirectly factors FG% instead of TS% or eFG%. I just explained in the comment you responded to how you come up with the statistic.
    .
    and frankly, i would have argued Pau had a greater effect on LA winning than Kobe did. The thing that the stat doesn’t higlight by itself, is that Pau’s effect is only greater than Kobe’s because he was playing with Andrew Bynum (and vice versa for Bynum). As individuals it would be stupid to say either were more important than Bryant. But as a pair? Yes, they were more important.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    ok so, as you know, or at least as i’ve said on here numerous times, PER is a basic stat that gives a great idea of a player’s OFFENSIVE production. — it does factor in some defensive statistics, but really, the offense is what matters. And the stat totally over values defensive rebounds. I mean completely and utterly. Which is why you always see Kevin Love at the top of the PER rankings, despite him being a horrid defender, and routinely ineffective in terms of changing his teams fortunes.

    .

    with that being said, Jefferson has been a starter since his 2nd year, his career averages of 16 points and 9 rebounds on 50% shooting are just flat out valued more than Nash’s 14 points and 8.6 assists.

    .

    But if you look at their stats since each became a starter Nash’s PER is 21.2 while Jefferson’s is 21.1

  • justin05

    Jamison seems to be washed up but he came to LA to win a ring so maybe he’s waiting for the playoffs.

  • justin05

    Your brain thinks up some funny sh*t. I’ll take ppg over almost any other stat because that is how you win a basketball game, scoring more points than the opponent. Everything is an argument for you but I’m not trying to debate. I’m telling you how it is young blood.

  • justin05

    I’m saying he’ll finish #3 in total points when he retires but I’ll still only consider him a top 5 scorer all-time. These all-time lists don’t matter that much tho bro, it just gives us something to argue about. I just want my team to win games, never have I been an irrational Kobe fan or an irrational hater against another player. I dislike every team in the NBA because I am such a die hard Laker fan. This is all child’s play compared to what I’ll be talking about come June

  • justin05

    Jackass’s get far in life because they standf up for what they believe in. The truth hurts sometimes.. I never play video games unless it’s 2k or madden. Basketball and music are my passions in life, they are what I know and live by. Caboose is no baller, I can tell you that. Real players always have the best views because they see the game for what it is.

  • justin05

    I don’t care about stats man..I get on nba.com every other day or so and see who is in the top 10 for each category but I get bored looking them up. Stats will never tell you who is going to win the championship and that is all I care about. #17. Basketball is not academic, and there are plenty of people who agree w/ you and bamn.. just as there are many people who agree w/ myself. I have nothing against you Caboose.. bamn and other ppl start more of the garbage about Kobe and I’m just going to nip it in the @SS as soon as I see it. You just always want to debate, next time I see a comment from you that I like I’ll show you some luv brother. No hate. The only time I’m going to show disrespect is if there is disrespect being thrown around.

  • LakeShow

    I see. Most of that was understood. It also exemplifies why I don’t understand why we use it…

    PER isn’t really a great statistic IMO. I mean it can be used, but it really shouldn’t play merit on how we view a player if it’s higher or lower than expected.

    If a statistic overvalues and undervalues things than it’s not a good statistic IMO.

    You follow what i’m saying? This is the reason why I rag on some of these advance stats sometimes. I just don’t feel they provide a good, true metric for viewing players.

    Nash has been an infinitely better player starting than Jefferson. I don’t think there’s a person that would disagree with that. Yet PER says they have comparable value…

    Am I missing something?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    speaking on the existence of a god or higher power, please please please explain, logically, how you get something from nothing. If there is no eternal (god/higher power) then there is nothing. logically.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    he didn’t make Caboose look bad, he just showed he doesn’t understand the stats he is trying to use to justify his argument. the only thing that would make someone think Caboose looks bad here is ignorance.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Caboose LakeShow justin05 – here you go, if you want to see what matters more for winning…….

    .
    (Win Shares – Per Season)
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_season.html

    .

    (PPG Per Season)

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_season.html

    .

    Seems like Win Shares will give you a better idea of whose teams are having more success……..uh oh.

  • LakeShow

    Tell me Caboose, what does leading the L in PER have to do with anything?

    Why would we act like someone is great because of their PER?

    It’s a statistic which provides a poor metric for testing a players impact.

    Sometimes it adds up, sometimes it doesn’t.
    .
    .
    .
    What do win/shares have to do with anything?

    Kobe has more win shares than LeBron…. That means he’s better than LeBron right?…

    You still don’t understand why we don’t like your “factual statistics” do you?

    What does leading the L in FG% mean? Pretty sure Tyson Chandler and Dwight Howard – two not so great offensive players- led the L for many years…

    What do all these great statistics truly mean unless you use your noggin?
    Your too smart to just read these numbers and blurt out like that man. There’s more to the game than numbers.

  • Caboose

    I’d be happy to talk about this, but is this comment thread really the appropriate place?

  • Caboose

    Of course there’s more: the application of said numbers. Usually, I don’t randomly chuck out stats, I use them to prove a point. Namely stuff like this:
    Argument 1: Kobe is clutch.
    Counterpoint 1: His FG% in clutch situations is under 40%.
    Argument 2: Kobe is a winner.
    Counterpoint 2: Years without Shaq, Win Shares per 48 minutes (total win shares isn’t as good).
    Argument 3: Kobe is an efficient offensive player.
    Counterpoint 3: PER, FG%, etc, etc.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    hell no it isn’t. you got my email?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    As I have always said, i never use single stats to make a point. i use them to support a point, ofcourse, but i never like any of them as stand alone stats, there is too much to basketball to simplify it with a single statistic. And as you see and presumably most everyone else, Nash’s effect on his team is so much more profound then Jefferson that this stat really doesn’t do any justice to ranking either of them. But the stat isn’t bad, it really does give a good idea of the best overall offensive basketball players (aside from those that rebound heavily) — see what Hollinger tried (and acts like he succeeded in doing) was too value the best offensive players while still giving proper context to those guys who do more away from the scoring column. — as you see with Dwight Howard he is constantly near the leaders in PER despite “low” offensive production, simply because Hollinger so over values Defensive Rebounds/Blocks/Steals that it flubs the numbers. Which if all basketball players were created equal would be a passable short cut, but since they aren’t and there are guys like Kevin Love, the stat ends up overvaluing guys that seem to be nothing more than stat sheet stuffers.
    .
    Hence the widespread belief that Kevin Love is the best PF in the NBA despite the fact that he has almost no positive effect on his actual team at all.

  • Caboose

    Really? You’re gonna claim that Kobe is the same scorer as Jordan? Sigh, whatever, I’ll prove you wrong.
    1. Jordan led the league in scoring 10 times. Kobe, twice.
    2. Jordan career PPG: 30.1 Kobe: 25.4. This includes the Wizards years.
    3. Even though Jordan played an inefficient 2 years in Washington, his eFG% and TS% are higher. The 3 point line was adjusted for 3 years, having little effect on career totals.
    4. Jordan led the league in Offensive Win Shares 8 times. Kobe never has.
    5. Jordan led the league in Usage % 8 times. 6 out of those times, he led the league in Win Shares per 48 Minutes. Kobe led the league in Usage % 3 times. He never led the league in Win Shares per 48 minutes.
    6. The players’ Offensive Ratings aren’t even close.
    7. Jordan Playoff Career PPG: 33.4. Kobe: 25.6
    8. Jordan has higher TS% and EFG% in the Playoffs for a career as well.
    9. Kobe has never shot over 50% for a season. Jordan did 6 times.
    10. If you want to compare eras (like you seem to), Jordan played with hand check rules and less fouls called inside. Kobe has the benefit of loosened defense. Hence the higher amount of free throws.
    11. The only absolutely moronic argument you can make to say that Kobe is the same scorer as Jordan is that Kobe scored 81 in a game. Bravo. Idiot.

  • Caboose

    I’ll find it. Or, we could always just hijack a little-viewed thread here. That would be fun.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    either way is cool with me. last time i had this conversation with an atheist they left not being an atheist. lol

  • Caboose

    Haha good for you. I’m not trying to convive people though. I’ll have my say, and that’s it. No counterpoints. No argument. Just my statements. Warning, it will consist of a crash course in relativity, quantum mechanics, and astrophysics.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    oh i didn’t mean to make it sound like i’m going to argue with you, lol my bad. just that, with how i understand and explain it, i don’t see any logical way not to be a theist. but i am really excited to see a different perspective. i am just as interested in this topic as i am in anything, so i’m a little zealous.

  • LakeShow

    Fair.
    You have been doing quite well at not just throwing some number out there to “prove a point”.
    It’s our boy Caboose that is acting like if you have a better PER or Win/share you ARE better.
    I myself will use PER and +/- and any other stat when the context seems correct to use, but otherwise it’s dumb to act like they are be all end all.
    LeBron is better than Kobe because he is, not because the number say so.
    It also happens that allot of numbers point to that also, in this case.
    You know how I feel about K-Love. I do think he is top 3, but the “stats” make it appear as if he is the obvious #1.
    LA, J-Smith, Gasol, Dirk, Z-Bo, and Bosh are all comparable players in terms of impact today IMO. An argument can be made for any of them being the top PF, but the “stats” might point to just one of them. So you see why i’m a little anti-stats sometimes.

    Once again appreciate you breaking it down.

  • LakeShow

    I didn’t refer to anything about PPG.
    That is something that Caboose made up as a Straw man argument to counter my decent objections to some of the stats he was using.
    None-the-less, i’ll check it out to educate myself further.

  • LakeShow

    To your ‘Counter point 1′: How many player in the L take the “game winning” shot 95% of the time for their team?
    Counter point 2: Kobe has won every year he has had an All-Star team mate. He only didn’t win when he had Smush Parker and Chris Mihm manning the court with him.
    Counterpoint 3: Efficient offensive player by what standard?
    Player average?
    Guard average?
    Volume shooter average?
    Compared to other players that play nearly exclusively on the perimeter?
    Compared to all time greats?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    honestly only put your name in there because you were involved in the conversation. that comment was to show Justin that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about at all. more than anything. even though he thinks he does because he played, and from some unfounded reason, thinks he has more actual basketball experience than everyone he talks to, and even worse, thinks his experience in the sport has somehow elevated his level of understanding to the point where facts matter less than his opinion. basically, he is the worst kind of commenter.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    oh and i highly highly highly doubt he has more playing experience than i do. unless he plays professionally. which doesn’t really matter, because i understand that playing isn’t everything. there are very intelligent basketball minds who never played a minute of real high level basketball ——- Stan Van Gundy (played for a high school team and then moved on to play for his dad at a d-III school) being a glaring example.

  • LakeShow

    lol…

    Gotcha.

    I admit that I get geeked up over ball sometimes, and I love ball so sh*t get’s real on here sometimes, but i’m no dodo.

    Justin is speaking naively about PPG. Such a silly argument to make.

    Too easy to pick apart.

    Basically he admits to thinking Kevin Martin was the 6th best player in the L in 07-08…

  • Caboose

    I gotcha. Meet me at the Spike Lee thread. Are you asking me to make points against religious organizations, a specific religion, an old man with a white beard, a “creator,” or a being that transcends the laws of the universe?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    I am a theist. What he looks like lol, what religion, non of that matters to me. It’s a creator as I see it. Creator of everything but himself. Unless we are a computer program. See you there

  • LakeShow

    1. Look at the team he was playing on. Kinda hard to uproot all star Eddie Jones out of his starting spot. 20-5-4-1.5-1 is not a lame year lol.

    2. LeBron is not touted as being a “great scorer” yet has one. (So what)

    3. Just as debateable as his MVP is his lack of MVP a couple other years.

    4. “only 2 finals MVP’s”…. Only???? how many more NBA players in history have more?

    5. Michael Jordan would have been the 2nd option on a team with Shaq. You feed the dominant 60% FG% guy EVERY time. (So what he wasn’t as dominant as Shaq was then. No one in history before is/was/or has been on a similar scale)

    6. Poor team performance are directly tied into the lack of team. Worse team than Bron had.

    7. Poor shooting % in clutch situations based on what metric? No one takes or will take as many clutch shots as Kobe. Volume matters. There’s a reason why Phil Jackson gave KB the shot at the end of the game. (hint: it wasn’t because he was an idiot)

    8. Do I need to defend this? You shoot allot… You miss allot.

    9. So f*cking what??????????

    10. Pretty good for a volume shooter that operates almost strictly on the perimeter to have average FG% numbers.

    11. So does Kareem. So does Wilt. So does Karl Malone. So does Michael Jordan. (Those were just the first four players I checked….)

    12. … … …

  • LakeShow

    That’s why^

  • LakeShow

    Plus, it’s hard to put up 20-15 games when your washed up…

  • Bored

    now im back to thinking you are crazy. PPG? PPG????? i dont think anyone will ever take you seriously again. sorry bro. unless you just brain farted?

  • Bored

    are you defending him because he put up 19 and 15 against Dallas? thats one game. though maybe you are right and they are just resting him or something for the playoffs?

  • Justin Martinez

    I may not understand win shares but I don’t take this site that seriously. Like I have said before, I smoke before I usually get on the internet so I’m just bsing half the time. When Caboose made his comment about PPG I thought it was ridiculous because you win a basketball game by putting up more points than your opponents. Why do you think the NBA has a scoring championship title and not a win shares title? You people spend wayyy too much time on this website dissecting every little thing. I just make ignorant comments when I’m pissed at ppl for making disrespectful comments about Kobe. We’ve all wasted enough time on eachother but if I see hate on Kobe I’ll do the same thing I did in this article… Call out the guys who disrespect. I can do whatever I want so if you don’t want to read my comments further than skip them. I do the same thing to a bunch of yours and bamn’s comments..No harm no foul.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Then do it again, I’m never going to respect the way you go about commenting, repeating and defending yourself is just wasting your own time.

  • Justin Martinez

    We’re still Laker fans at the end of the day bro. This ppg debate means nothing to me, I was trying to stick up for you earlier. I just don’t like the disrespect that’s been given to my favorite baller of all-time.

  • Justin Martinez

    I’ve never said I know more than you but the Kobe vs. Wade debate has shown thus far that you, bamn, and Caboose don’t know as much as Drig’r, Conor, and myself when it comes to best in the league. Keep using those stats and Kobe will keep racking up the rings regardless of his win shares lmao

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    “As me and the Lakers minions have said” I don’t give a f*ck about your broken opinion. Or Conors. All you have proven is that you have an unshakeable illogical bias that makes you look willfully stupid agree or not that’s how you look to most of us. And if you don’t care that’s fine, but that’s how you are perceived.

  • Bored

    huh? whats why?

  • LakeShow

    ‘Preciate man, truly do.

    Didn’t mean it to come off as ‘your not smart’ or something, just that I wasn’t down to defend PPG as the be all end all of statistics lol.

    Kobe gets disrespected more than most, and that’s gross, but the worse part is these guys on here truly do recognize him as an all time great, they just don’t like it.

  • LakeShow

    He also had another 18-7 game, a game or two before that one.
    He’s been picking it up. I don’t think there is any “saving” going, just everyone trying to get in game shape and playing with new team mates and such that’s all.

  • Bored

    yeah i thought so. its hard to talk about basketball when youre so biased though isnt it?

  • Bored

    yeah, i think it could go either way. im hoping for the best for him though. i just think he probably wont produce in the way you guys are hoping.

  • Drig’r

    1. Jordan had a higher usage rate and put up more shots per season.

    2. Your point being? Jordan put up more shots than Kobe did. And the O helped him.

    3. I said that the eFG% and tS% would be virtually identical if Kobe played the same way as Jodan did i.e. attack strongly to the rim and post-up plays. Even with all the long 2s Kobe’s taken, his eFG% and TS% is about 2% less than Jordan’s. Jordan’s efficiency would’ve fallen off if he had a paint full post players and defenders and he had to take long 2s and 3s to create some space on the inside.

    4&5. Isiah Thomas ranks 131 in OWS. Wanna explain to me how there are 130 guys who were better to handle the O and generate buckets? OWS and WS are relative stats which should not be used unless they play the EXACT same role under the EXACT same conditions.

    6. ORtg takes into account the efficiency of a player. Kobe’s had the deck stacked against him and I already explained why over time on these discussion threads.

    7. 21.8 FGA vs 25.3 FGA. Again, he also benefitted by being able to play near the post or iso-picks on the wing. Kobe and Jordan would destroy anyone like that.

    8. Again, .503 vs .480 . .561 vs .548. This is with the long 2s Kobe needed to take included.

    9. Kobe never had a great team that let him have knockdown perimeter shooters, a great 2nd wing player.

    10. Kobe played in an era where handchecking + zone was allowed. In ’99-’02 I think. It’s BS when people say Kobe couldn’t be just as effective on O in handchecking era. If given the same Bulls team, he could’ve driven more to the hoop just like MJ did.

    Also, Kobe’s D would benefit from playing in the handcheck era. Kobe’s FG% would increase playing in the no-zone/semi-zone era.

    The 1994 rule is as follows: *Hand-checking [is] eliminated from the end line in the backcourt to the opposite foul line. What this effectively means is that hand checking is prohibited except for post play in the paint, something still allowed today.

    That 1994 rule stayed in effect till 2004 until it was changed to the form that it currently is today *”A defender may not place and keep his hand on an opponent unless he is in the area near the basket with his back to the basket. A defender may momentarily touch an opponent with his hand anywhere on the court as long as it does not affect the opponent’s movement (speed, quickness, balance, rhythm).”

    The current rule in its wording actually permits more contact than the 1994 rule, although it doesn’t permit as much contact as Jordan played under for his first 9 years.

    How much did Jordan’s FG% increase exactly from ’94 to ’97 compared to ’84 – ’94????

  • rraquet

    True enough, but for bamn who is on here all the time to say he’s unaware that you like the magic is a joke, yeah you remain objective, but you’ve also stated numerous times the magic are your team. Doesn’t matter really, just found it odd that bamn would claim to have never seen you rep a team, when I’ve seen it quite a few times and im not on here anywhere close to as much. As him.

  • Datkid

    Magic Johnson is a “real baller” does he have good basketball views? MJ is the realest baller and he can’t evaluate talent at all. and playing video games means nothing. there’s no actual truth in your argument just bias and stupidity.

  • http://www.facebook.com/rainman1991 Saleem Rainman

    lol

  • LakeShow

    *Makes way over to Spike Lee thread*

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    *doesn’t see the discussion he was anticipating* lol

  • LakeShow

    ^*reads mind*

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    haha you can put in your 2 cents or say what you wanted to say anyway. that type of discussion interests me just as much as anything.

  • LakeShow

    I for one won’t being reading much Plato or Aristotle.
    Don’t get me wrong, they are fantastic in their originality and overall mind, but I need a condensed version of that sh*t, (they ‘fluff’ to much for me) I ain’t patient, like you were saying lol.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    right, i try and just get the message, and the logical steps that lead up to it. you can reply to what your stance on my basis is over there if you wanna discuss that without jumping into philosophical history.

  • mrggacartier

    sound like a laker hater 2 me

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