Sunday, January 27th, 2013 at 5:45 pm  |  132 responses

Chris Bosh is Certain He’s a Hall of Famer


Of the Miami Heat’s Big Three, Chris Bosh is far and away the least heralded. This doesn’t mean his ego is any smaller than LeBron James or Dwyane Wade’s however. Bosh says there’s no doubt in his mind that he’s headed for the Hall of Fame. Per Fox Sports: “Bosh always has had plenty of confidence. Now, he’s talking about how he will be enshrined in Springfield, Mass. ‘Hell, yeah, of course. I’ve been a Hall of Famer like four years ago,’ Bosh said. ‘And I say that very serious, though. I’ve talked about it before with my friends.’ Bosh has career averages of 19.7 points and 9.0 rebounds. But something happened with the 10-year veteran Thursday that might have clinched his trip to Springfield. Bosh, averaging 17.2 points and 7.2 rebounds, was named to his eighth All-Star Game. The only eligible player in history with eight or more NBA All-Star selections who is not in the Hall is eight-time pick Larry Foust, a center who averaged 13.7 points and 9.8 rebounds from 1950-62. ‘With eight, I’m so thankful for that,’ said Bosh, who was intrigued to hear about the above stat. ‘It never gets old. Just to be able to have that opportunity to be an All-Star, it’s just incredible for me.’”

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  • pposse

    there is some validity to Seeds point…if you look elsewhere to like tony parker and manu ginobli, both of them sacrificed money, and their legacy to be main parts to a well oiled spurs machine. But neither are considered HOF worthy players for the most part.

  • z

    Redd, don’t start. I may not comment here often but I read comments nearly every day. You are the Kelly Bundy of Slam, so don’t start with your childish tantrums. You have a bad habit of getting upset when ppl easily dismiss your arguments, and ppl clown u all the time.

    Show me where in your comment that I replied to that you claimed he was the 2nd best 3pt shooter. YOU NEVER EVEN MADE THAT POINT, which is dependent on how you measure it. Volume of shots affects how many 3pt shots made, but percentage reflects accuracy of shots.

  • Caboose

    No no no no no. Just because he has made the 2nd most 3 pointers does NOT mean he is the 2nd best 3 point shooter. That means Mark Jackson was a better passer than Magic, Buck Williams was a better rebounder than Charles Barkley and Tim Duncan, REGGIE MILLER WAS A BETTER SCORER THAN ALLEN IVERSON, and Jason Kidd was a better 3PT shooter than Steve Nash. Good logic right?

  • z

    According to read you should learn to read the invisible sentence where he specified 3pt shooting, in which case he’d still be wrong.

  • Lloyd

    I didn’t mean entertaining like circus acts. I’m saying he gave us incredible basketball. Legendary moments. His incredible game 5 in 2000 to send the Pacers to the finals, “the push off” on Jordan, knocking down 8 points in as many seconds. Some of the most entertaining and timeless basketball moments in the history of the NBA. What has Bosh done? And you got to forget all this regular season stats. He played 18 years. Obviously his averages are going to be brought down by his later seasons. Compare Bosh’s playoff stats to Reggie’s and see who really was the man when it counted.

  • Redd

    If you know basketball then you know he’s considered the 2nd best 3 point shooter.

    Also I don’t dismiss arguments against my points. But when you tell me I said something I clearly didn’t then I have no reason to listen.

    “He dominated his position with regards to his 3 point shooting”. Tantrum? Me telling you to shut up cause you don’t bother to read? LOL ok enjoy your pathetic arguing over not having a point.

  • Redd

    & Ray Allen made 2nd team once & 3rd team once as well.

    Yes Bosh has had a great career. I’m not denying it, stat wise as a whole better than Reggie? Yes. But again, I think he was inducted for his 3 pt. shooting. You can do what ifs but in the end he still did what he did.

    If Ray Allen hadn’t won a chip & Reggie would’ve gotten a few more All stars & no HoF would you then see Ray as a future HoFer.

  • Caboose

    That explains why Reggie has so many rings. Let’s go through this:

    -
    1994: Reggie explodes in 4th Quarter of Game 5 vs Knicks, take 3-2 lead. Pacers lose next 2 as Reggie shoots 39%, and averages 1.5 rebounds, 2.0 assists, and 2.5 turnovers.
    -
    1995: Year of Reggie’s 8 points in 8 seconds. In the next series vs the Magic, Reggie tanks in Game 7, going for 12 points on 13 shots with 0 assists. Magic win, advance to Finals.
    -
    1998: Conference Finals vs Jordan’s Bulls. Game 6, Pacers win, but Reggie scores 8 points on 2-13 shooting with 0 assists. Game 7, Pacers lose despite being up starting the 4th quarter, but Jordan torches Reggie, as the Bulls advance to the Finals.
    -
    1999: #1 Pacers lose to #8 Knicks in 6 games. Reggie goes for 8 points on 3-18 shooting in decisive Game 6.
    -
    2000: Best Playoffs for Reggie. However, he shoots only 45% and opens Game 1 of the Finals with a 1-16 performance.
    -
    2002: Some of Reggie’s most incredible moments in a first round series against the Nets. The Pacers lost both that game, and the series.
    -
    2004: 10 ppg on 40% shooting.

    -
    All other years, the Pacers either DIDN’T MAKE THE PLAYOFFS or lost in the first round. Clutch my a$$.

  • Caboose

    …That is funny dude. Read what you wrote. “You can do what ifs but in the end he still did what he did.” That sounds like you’re discounting what-if scenarios. Then IN THE NEXT SENTENCE, you begin a what-if scenario. Can you spot that cognitive dissonance?

  • z

    Omg, I literally only responded to what you said, which was wrong and not based on any factual proof. You told me to learn how to read as if there was something I missed. Then you responded with a different argument that was not in your original argument. What’s pathetic is your best back up to your arguments are name calling. You have no real support. I’ve probably been watching basketball for as long as you’ve been alive, so I think I know a little more about Miller’s career than you.

  • z

    *Redd

  • wdw

    robert horry is the greatest player in NBA playoff history

    if he doesn’t make the HOF then no one should

  • Caboose

    Wow. Ya know that scene in Dodgeball where the stupid guy suggests they pay for the gym with Canadian dollars to save themselves some money? I’m having deja vu.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Gilbert/100001749589586 Mike Gilbert

    I don’t know if I agree with this but it’s a really valid point. I have to give it more thought because I can see it from both sides.

  • Caboose

    You actually think Reggie dominated his position more than Bosh dominated his? Where’s the logic behind that?

  • davidR

    legend and reputation. career longevity (to be able to still play at a somewhat high level in later years). never really missed games due to injury unlike the majority of those guys you mentioned.

    all of those guys except sam, tim, and mitch fell off quickly as they aged. for reggie it’s mostly legend and reputation. as lloyd mentioned, reggie has given the nba some of its most memorable moments. these type of things elevate your legend. when you think of those guys you mentioned, what’s the one defining moment that sums up their career?

    also, for having played 18 seasons, the majority during a stacked era, career averages of 18 ppg on 47% fg (39.5% 3pts, 88% ft) is really good for a guy that mostly guns from deep.

    i’m not tryna attack you or anything, just trying to keep the wheel turning

  • Lloyd

    The fact remains Reggie got his team to those points and winning or losing fell on his shoulders. Bosh, when he was “the man” on his team, only made it to the playoffs twice, both first round exits which we’re apparently not counting anyway. If we were, Reggie’s teams made it to the playoffs 15 out of his 18 years in the NBA. And his failure to win a ring doesn’t quell any of those incredibly historic moments in NBA history. If you’re only counting rings, I guess you can say Bosh has been better since he piggy backed his way as a THIRD option in Miami to a chip, but other than that, Reggie has had a way more colourful career. To say Bosh should be in the HoF is one thing, but to say he deserves it or has a more impactful career than Reggie is absurd.

  • Caboose

    And I respect that you argued reasonably. But I’m sure you see that MOST of that argument has to rely on the “legend” bit, which I know you know I’m not a fan of. I haven’t really probed into his hard stats yet, which I will if needed, but honestly, 18 ppg for a career is NOTHING to write home about, especially when that’s all you do. I explained above how the clutch thing is a myth. It has been the media and the NBA that has BUILT Reggie’s career and legacy; it has had much less to do with his actual play than with what ESPN likes to show. Surely you, and most people here, can agree to that. Granted, some people think that’s a perfectly legitimate reason to be in the Hall. I WHOLEHEARTEDLY disagree, for reasons that are likely obvious.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=509819249 Gaurav P.

    Its not just Raptors fans. A lot of people pick on Bosh for whatever reason, or omit him as a star, etc. Not sure why either…

  • Caboose

    I’d also like to put for consideration the fact that Reggie only led the league in 3 pointers made TWICE in his whole 18 year career. You’d think someone so awesome at 3′s would make the most year after year. But…..nope.

  • Caboose

    Careful with the “I’m older, I’ve watched more basketball, I know more” argument. That’s a slippery slope and can be used easily against you if you ever argue for someone from the Wilt/Russell era. Granted, you’re right in this case, but I always hate that argument.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=509819249 Gaurav P.

    Who was the leader on the 2000 Pacers? Or was it more of a team effort a la 2004 Pistons? I think they still had Rik Smiths, Jalen, Mark Jackson, etc in 2000.

  • Ben E.

    He should make it on the sole fact that hes the first dinosaur to play in the NBA lol

  • Caboose

    It was DEFINITELY a team effort. Jalen was probably the best in the playoffs with Reggie close behind. Smits and Mark really didn’t add much, but they were there.

  • Caboose

    Wanna actually give me evidence than just saying he has “historic moments”? I base Hall selection not on opinion, but on what actually happened, and as you’ve said, the “legendary” stuff is entertaining moments that are remembered. Cool. I remember that he came up short in decisive games pretty often. I have an array of stats, and facts at my disposal, you have memories. Granted, if you think it’s memories that dictate a HOF selection, then we have nothing to argue.

  • http://www.facebook.com/rainman1991 Saleem Rainman

    fair enough.

    Michael Jordan obviously locked up one of the all nba spots, then you had guys liek Clyde Drexler,, Joe Dumars, Latrell Sprewell, Mitch Richmond, Drazen Petrovic,Iverson and Kobe (later in the 90s) and u also had guys like Steve Smith, and such. Its also to be noted that each spot on the first, second, and third teams werent selected in a way where there HAD to be ONE pg and ONE sg, on each team, so Reggie was battling against some of the best Point guards of that generation for his all nba selections too, you had guys like John Stockton, Tim Hardaway, Gary Payton, Mark Price, Kevin Johnson, Penny Hardaway, Jason Kidd, Eddie Jones, and Ray Allen (also a SG) and probably a handful of others im forgetting to mention. Yeah its a matter of opinion, hence im stating mine, but the guard positions were STACKED in the 90s….

  • Caboose

    Tony Parker is HOF without question. No Finals MVP has ever been denied HOF entrance. As for Manu, dude has an NBA Championship ring, a Euroleague Championship ring, and an Olympic Gold medal. He’s getting into the HOF too.

  • http://www.facebook.com/rainman1991 Saleem Rainman

    they are both headed to the hall, lol.

  • z

    Nope. It’s true. Anyone can youtube highlights and google stats. Actually watching and remembering gives more credibility to an argument.

    You know what I hate? People arguing about the Russell/Wilt era in a type of matter-of-fact way when they know damn well all they’ve see is highlight footage. That irks me.

  • http://www.facebook.com/rainman1991 Saleem Rainman

    yep. and its debatable that Manu shuda won the finals MVP award in 2005. Apparently voting was really close, as Stern mentioned when announcing Tim won. Manu DOMINATED.

  • Caboose

    Then I suppose I lack credibility. I was born in ’92, but I don’t think that deprives me of making a good argument. I agree on the Wilt thing, if people ever use SUBJECTIVES in that argument, you know they’re full of sh!t.

  • Caboose

    Ehhhh, I don’t think it’s debatable. 19-6-4 from Manu vs 21-14-2 from Duncan. Keep in mind that Timmy SHUT DOWN Sheed. Sheed averaged 11 and 6 that series.

  • Redd

    …

    wow you’re mind boggling in not realizing a simple thing. “He dominated his position with regards to his 3 point shooting”. <—read this carefully old man please. I never argued other than saying he was great in his 3pt as a SG. YOU responded by thinking I said he was a dominate SG in totality which I did NOT say in any way. Again 3pt shooting.

    Please read carefully a few times because you're really being ignorant(sorry if that's name calling to you lol).

    Lastly, any NBA fan knows that when I say he dominated in 3 pt. shooting it's referring to him being the 2nd best 3 pt. shooter amongst many people. Now talk to yourself, great job in arguing about something I didn't say.

  • davidR

    no worries man, reggie getting in is a hard subject to touch. and yea, i definitely acknowledge it’s mostly due to his legend and reputation. i wonder if his work as a commentator also helped boost his likeness to get into the hall?

    some things worth nothing:
    - 18 ppg isn’t special, but i think it’s important to note that he did it pretty efficiently for a guy that mostly shot from the perimeter during a tough era
    - his pacers went to the playoffs 15 out of 18 years he played there

    - he’s steadily improving as a commentator

  • Redd

    I’m simply pointing out that the only reason Reggie is being strippied of HOF legitimacy is Ray’s chip. UNLESS you believe Ray doesn’t deserve it which then in that case pure 3 pt. shooters should never be in the hof.

    You can argue against Reggie but in the end he accomplished something legendary. He had legendary moments(8 pts in 8.9 secs). Also remember in his era, Defense was a lot less easier to play.

  • Lloyd

    Well the three moments I mentioned above did actually happen and aren’t opinion…also they’re a part of the NBA.com 60 greatest playoff moments as decided by a panel of experts which included Marv Albert, Clyde Drexler, and Bill Russell. I’m pretty sure they have some credibility to rank the best among the best.

    And he’s the one who pushed his team to those decisive moments. He came up short yea, but doesn’t make his efforts and accomplishment any less great. And yes, those MOMENTS were some of the most clutch in NBA history.

    HoF selections have a lot of criteria. I think the biggest thing to consider is impact to the game. His legacy is being a successful 3-point shooter and those clutch moments he gave basketball fans everywhere. Reggie’s career and the moments he provided built NBA legend to what it is today. You definitely can’t say the same for Bosh.

    You have no array of stats to prove that Bosh deserves a HoF nod over Reggie. You have stats to back up your opinion that Reggie was overrated sure, but nothing you’ve said proves that Bosh is more deserving of the honour than Reggie which is the main issue here.

  • Caboose

    Acknowledged, but to me that’s not enough. Granted, I was born right at a time where I wouldn’t be able to appreciate the “legendary stuff” he did so I have no prior reputation to cloud or enhance my judgment. That makes me argue from a stat/fact/accolade perspective only, which most people who have an emotional attachment to his legacy is not ok. I appreciate your perspective.

  • Caboose

    If you wanna go Bosh vs Reggie, yeah, that’s DEFINITELY a hard argument for me, and one that should be had in….8 years when Bosh is out of the league. As for now, Reggie probably has had the better career SO FAR. I’ll concede that. But Bosh still has more gas left in the tank.
    -
    As far as the other thing, as long as you acknowledge that if looked purely at his stats, outside of “moments” and other stuff like that, Reggie has no place near the HOF. Fair?

  • pposse

    in my perspective i too agree that they are HOFamers..but i thought that that the voters go more on the actual numbers. As far as numbers go, Ginobli for sure could have been a 22 5 and 4 guy with a starting spot.

    I can’t be sure but i dontt think that the microwave is in the HOF but im pretty sure he was finals mvp on one of those bad boy piston teams (vinny johnson).

    im guessing that both ginobli and parker make it in, but get in based on some sort of gimmick like ‘best frenchmen’ or ‘best argentinian’ – the gold medal really helps ginobli’s case

  • Caboose

    Nah, old Vinnie never got Finals MVP. Also means good ol Chauncey is getting in too.

  • pposse

    nvm microwave wasnt the finals mvp ever!

  • davidR

    it’s important to note his efficiency, because before he hit 30, he shot over 50% from the field for a season 4 times as the teams main offensive threat. ~20ppg a game isn’t special, but he only took 13 shots a game. this was also during the handchecking era when it was harder to create space. he definitely could’ve scored more points if he was more selfish, but he just didn’t shoot more. kinda sounds opposite for a guy that’s supposed to be a cold blooded killer, doesn’t it? had he taken more shots, maybe his efficiency goes down a bit, or maybe he maintains it and scores more. who knows. still tho, a perimeter player shooting 50% is definitely an accomplishment.

    guys like peja, mitch, tim, never shot 50% for an entire season, and never had close to the amount of success reggie did as leaders of their teams. reggie unfortunately ran into stacked ny, chi, orl, or laker teams every time they had a serious chance at winning the chip.

    i don’t want it to seem like i’m defending this guy, because really i don’t necessarily feel like he deserves to be a HOFer, but i’m also not against it. i guess i’m just trying to give you some perspective into what made him a decorated player

  • Lloyd

    You made it Bosh vs. Reggie when you said your initial comment of “If Reggie made it…”. And if Bosh remains with Miami as a far off 3rd option behind Lebron and Wade, there won’t be an argument to be had.

    Stats/fact wise, Reggie sits #2 all time on 3 point field goals made at a 40% clip, widely considered one of the greatest 3 point shooters of all time (a bunch of those shots were HUGE shots too) That alone merits his HoF induction. Also he’s an Olympic and FIBA gold medalist on a team he co-captained, and made it to the playoffs 83% of his career, 6 times to the Eastern Conference Finals and once to the Finals. His regular season scoring stats weren’t monstrous, but he sits 14th all time in career points. That speaks to his relevant longevity consistency over his 18 year career. Don’t know if you grew up watching him, but anyone who had can attest to all of it.

    Those are his stats. That’s his legacy. You can say all his short-comings all you want, but he accomplished all of the above. Was he the greatest player ever? Absolutely not. But he defintely belongs in the HoF.

  • Caboose

    If you think that’s a HOF resume, all the best to you.

  • pposse

    i just dont see the actual voters putting in Ginobli without some sort of bias whether its him being an international player or rewarding a respectable spurs organization. 15 4 and 4 on %45 shooting?

    He does have the hardware, but so does Horry (7 chips!) As a voter, i dont see how you can so easily put in Ginobili on a first ballot and not even think of Horry without being hypocritical.

  • Lloyd

    I do and so do both the screening and voting committees of the BHoF. Sounds like you think the only things that credit a HoF resume is above average regular season stats and how many championship teams you’ve been on. There’s more to it than that. Look up the process.

  • Caboose

    Logical fallacy: Proof by verbosity. But I’ll just let it go. Clearly we have differing philosophies.

  • Dagger

    Well, he did average at or near (within .5 PPG) 20 PPG for nine straight seasons. He JUST missed the 50/40/90 club for 10 or so seasons, which is a remarkable accomplishment. His PER was over 20 for 6 seasons, and his winshares were over 200 for 2 seasons. He shot over 40% from the 3 in 10 seasons; Ray Allen, by contrast, did the same for only 8 seasons. Oh yeah, and obviously he was the league-leader in three pointers made until Allen took that spot recently.

    He WAS incredibly clutch; looking beyond great memories or gut feeling, here’s a brief article with some actual statistics: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/49707/reggie-miller-was-most-clutch-sharpshoote

    I’m not touching the All-NBA or all-star team selections; you know how subjective those can be. Much more important: there have been few players in NBA history who ever increased their scoring in the playoffs like Reggie Miller (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/millere01.html). Oh yeah, and the Pacers had a winning record in every year of Miller’s career except one (96/97, when the team was 4 games below .500).

    With all that in mind, given his iconic status in the 90s Reggie is pretty clearly a hall of famer. Is he one of the best 20, 30, or 40 players in league history? No, but he deserves to be enshrined.

  • Lloyd

    Me telling you to look it up is proof by verbosity? Don’t think so.

    “A Nomination Packet consists of a completed nomination form procured
    from the BHOF, and news clippings, magazine articles or other
    informative, factual data about the candidate”. This doesn’t include just stats, they take into account the moments and legendary individual performances that you’re quick to right off.

    Then, with the whole package taken into consideration, they go through a screening process through different committees and then a final vote by the BHoF board. There’s no differing philsophies here, just the fact of a thorough voting process against your opionion and personal bias against a well deserved player.

    here’s the link if you want to look it up yourself:

    http://www.hoophall.com/enshrinement-process/

  • davidR

    reggie shot a career 47%, and 39.5% from 3pt. he’s had a 50%+ fg% for 4 out of his 18 seasons. that’s a sign he’s a good shooter

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