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Thursday, June 6th, 2013 at 2:10 pm  |  205 responses

LeBron James Says Tim Duncan is the Most Dominant Player of the Last 15 Years


The principal actors from the Miami Heat and San Antonio Spurs met with the press yesterday prior to tonight’s Game 1 of the NBA Finals, and both teams were very complimentary of one another. LeBron James praised Tim Duncan‘s longevity and continued dominance, saying that TD is the League’s most consistently dominant force of the last 15 years. Per ASAP Sports (via EOB): “Q: LeBron, Tim Duncan’s numbers this season are almost identical to what they were in 2007. What do you think it is about Tim Duncan that has allowed him to be so relevant at 37 and to maintain such a high level of his playing? LeBron James: ‘First, I think it’s him staying in shape, his conditioning level. I think it’s the great support that they have in San Antonio. Also I think it’s him being a true professional to the game. Giving everything to the game. And when you give everything to the game, the game rewards you. And I think it’s all of that. He’s a champion. He has championship DNA. And like I said, when you give everything to the game, as far as, you know, sacrifices that you make, the game repays you. It has allowed him to continue to play at a high level, even at his age.’ Q: LeBron, to that end, as a student of NBA history, how do you think Tim will ultimately be regarded in this era as one of the players of this era? How do you think he’ll be viewed? LBJ: ‘Who?’ Q: ‘Tim.’ LBJ: ‘Probably one of the best players to ever play the game of basketball. If I just look at the last 15 years, he’s probably been the most consistent, most dominant player that we’ve had as far as 15 years all together. He’s won four titles, multiple All Stars, MVP, and so on and so on. I think He doesn’t get a lot of recognition because he’s not flashy like a lot of guys are. He’s not jumping over people and high‑flying and doing the things that attracts people to the game. But I think true basketball, true IQ people, players know how great he is. What else can you say?’”

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  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Quite obviously

  • Pistol69

    No. It’s Kobe. Duncan is the second.

  • Ricky

    Lebron had to say fifteen years. If the span had been ten years, he would have had to pick himself.

  • SirGrey

    Skilled, maybe. Dominant, no.

  • Mike From Spain

    I vote for Tim Duncan over Kobe as the most dominant of his era.

  • TR

    I don’t know, its close. I think Timmy has him by a little though.

  • spit hot fiyah

    co-signed by bill simmons

  • Lloyd

    Actually a great response. Shout outs to Lebron. Real classy aknowledging the greatness that is Tim Duncan.

  • Bird

    Agree. 1.Kobe. Lebron said that because Tim is playing this year finals. Tim has a friendly character, it’s easy to pick him. Duncan is not the most dominant player in his team right now. Will see him dominating inside the whole series like Hibbert? I doubt it. Just remember the series with the Pistons, most boring series ever. The key this year is Parker and Ginobilli.

  • Dfrance

    When you factor in his defense, actual defense and not All-NBA honors, Duncan has Kobe beat.

  • danpowers

    kobe is most dominant in producing commercials, selling shoes and one on five sco… uhm shooting. he might also be the most skilled player in the nba. but he is not the most dominant. that includes both ends of the floor. most of his defensive team selections were a joke and sheer reputation. he is incredibly talented but also scores very inefficienty (except this year)… in a way that one could argue some of his lakers championship teams won their chips even though he was their 1st (or 2nd) scoring option rather than because of him.

    tim duncan all the way, hands down. cnt compare these two anyway as were talking about a pivot and a wing

  • danpowers

    stating the obvious. no children, its not kobe.

  • LakeShow

    Yeah besides that guy that just put up 27-6-5…
    Naw it’s kind of preference at this point. Duncy is up there for sure.

  • danpowers

    by just producing how many season wins?

    and all the years b4, what were his fg attempt per game, fg%, ts% and efg% numbers again? ;) youre talking about the second best sg for most of those last 15 years. he had his time as the best for a couple of years. but by far not the most dominant player. he is the most skilled tho.

  • Max

    The most Dominant players need more than 1 (possibly 2) rings.

  • Max

    I also give Timmy a slight edge over Kobe.

  • bike

    Whatever you want to call him, Duncan has something that’s pretty dam rare. It’s some form of timeless quality that’s almost comforting to older basketball fans. He’s always there, year in and year out, playing at the highest level with a repertoire of moves you simply don’t see anymore.

    He’s Tim By God Duncan.

  • 1982

    I don’t know if consistency is the same as dominance. He’s the most productive, and a fantasy league given. But he was never dominant in the way Shaq or Jordan was. Even if we’re looking at 15 years straight – he’s the most consistent. Dominance is up for grabs.

  • LakeShow

    Yeah their teams had very similar ups and downs throughout the season. Definitely a good comparison.

  • danpowers

    only this one “by just producing how many season wins?” was about this season.

    the rest was about the last 15 years as a whole.

  • Mr_Austin

    just so we’re clear, since jordan retired, what SG has been better than Kobe Bryant?

  • Mr_Austin

    “tim duncan all the way, hands down. cnt compare these two anyway as we are talking about a pivot and a wing”

    so much derp in one statement. you say the two cannot be compared due to their positions right after saying duncan wins hands down. you can’t have it both ways. either you do believe a comparison is fair game, or not.

  • danpowers

    wade, at least for quite some years. wade is not more skilled than kobe, but played more efficiently and a better defense for quite some years.

  • danpowers

    then let me differ: we cant compare duncan to kobe in a way that we talk about their skillsets. but when it comes to greatness, how they fill(ed) their respective roles, i think there was no player better than duncan in the last 15 years. in a couple of years that will be most likely bron.

  • Mr_Austin

    wade? no. at best, he’s been a more efficient scorer than kobe, but that’s about it. for a guy who’s been in the league for 10 years, his offensive game has barely improved beyond a quite inconsistent midrange jumpshot and throwing alley-oops. he is a terrible outside shooter, and while a decent playmaker, is very turnover prone. remember that he played the point frequently in his first two years in the league, but was moved to SG because of his size and more imporantly because he lacked the artificial intelligence to be a pure point guard. even as a defender, wade was, and is, somewhat overrated. he’s a much better off-ball/help defender than he is man-to-man. he relies more on his ABILITIES (athleticism, agility, speed etc) than his skills and you can see that just by watching him play where, more often than not, he’s gambling for steals in the passing lane. you can’t compare him with some of the best wing defenders like tony allen, andre iguodala, paul george, sefolosha, iman shumpert who are good at some of the things that may not show up on a stat sheet, such as fighting through picks, forcing skilled wings to drive/shoot to their weaker spots, cutting off lanes, helping weaker defenders while quickly recovering etc. none of these things is wade particularly great at.

    wade is a great player in his own right, but very few people who are not heat fans and/or kobe haters would say he has been better/greater/dominant/whatever adjective you want than kobe.

  • LakeShow

    The Lakers have 761 wins over the last 15 years.

    The Spurs have 832.

    I mean is that really that big of a number when you throw in the consistency Duncan has had around him. With Coach Pop, TP, and Manu every year. It’s not really more impressive.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    :Tim Duncan’s Career PER of 24.7 is higher than all but 3 years of Kobe Bryants career…..and that’s his average.

  • LakeShow

    Holy sh*t guys!
    Look at this!
    PER off the charts!
    Can’t wait to hear what his eFG% and TS% is too so we can truly judge them!

  • Mr_Austin

    that’s a fair, albeit subjective point. firstly, the two men’s career timelines couldn’t be more different so the comparison isn’t exactly apples to apples. there isn’t going to be universal agreement on what exactly their roles are vis a vis the two teams. moreover, in terms of “filling their respective roles” one could easily argue that no one did it better than kobe did during the 3peat era, where even as a #2 option, he was scoring within the 20-30 point range, acting as the main playmaker and occasionally becoming the #1 option when shaq either was in foul trouble, struggling at the free throw line or hurt. even beyond that, when he became “the man”, his role has had to change both in the struggle years of 2004-07 and the gasol era, and very few will argue that he has not filled “his role” well, even if you may nitpick at HOW he has gone about it. the 2 championships are a testament to that.

  • Mr_Austin

    i’m not sure you can say definitively that duncan has been more “dominant” than kobe since even on this message-board, we can’t even agree on how to define “dominant” but it is a fair point. and we don’t need to get into arbitrary comparisons with other people to appreciate duncan’s greatness, since lebron probably didn’t even mean it as a slight to kobe, but in appreciation of one of the greatest players in NBA history. that’s what this should be out, and is for me.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Lool, oh no guys. A fact by itself. I hate those. I’m gonna throw a fit.

  • LakeShow

    Kobe’s never averaged as few assists as Duncan since he has started…
    Oh no guys a fact by itself = Virtually useless…

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Your right. Why don’t you point out the problems with PER….. that’ll sure help Kobe a ton.

    .

    Or how about you point out how many times Duncan has caused problems within his team…

    .

    Or maybe you should show me how many times the Tim Duncan has won less than 50 games?

    .

    Or since there are lockout seasons, point out how many times his teams have won less than 60%?

    .

    Or you want to show me all the times Tim Duncan won a title as the second best player on his team?

    .

    Maybe you can tell me who has been a better defender over time? Who has really affected games better?

    .

    Or maybe, just maybe you want to talk about who was the most dominant, at their most dominant?

    .

    Maybe Kobe has had a better season at some point than Duncan’s best season? Surely that’s the one.

  • danpowers

    to me it is at least equally impressive as kobe plays for the lakers. that means even though he had to go through the no shaq no gasol time, but besides that he had incredibly talented teams around him.

  • LakeShow

    Best player also?
    Or just most dominant?

  • danpowers

    i am not arguing that kobe is a great player and that he contributed decisively to the success of deep and incredibly talented lakers teams that won 5 championships and made it to the finals 7 times during his career so far.

    i still think duncan is a more efficient player on both ends of the floor. he anchors a defense by himself and is also a great 1on1 defender in the post. on offense he is so gifted and uses this talents as smart and efficient as anyone who played since he entered the league. it is not only about his own output but also how he makes his teammates better.
    albeit all of kobes greatness, he takes too many plays on defense off and takes too many bad shots on offense (even though he arguably deserves the right to take these shots) to be considered as the most dominant player of his time. to me not only volume but also efficiency matters, too. so to me he really isnt the most dominat player – at least not if we see basketball as more than a one on one show.

  • Sergio

    Well, Duncan had a great supporting cast during all his career. He didnt have to play with scrubs like Kobe had from 04 to 07.

    Reagrding the problems with the team, do not forget that he never had divas as teamates like Shaq and Howard.

    Ok, Kobe doesnt has not been as good as TD on D. But Duncan has never been nowhere close to Kobe in offensive impact.

    Regarding 1rst or 2nd option, I, again, invite you to look at KB and Shaqs stats during their runs to the Finals. They were pretty even during the Western Conference run, and Shaq got the advantage in the Finals due to heavily favorable matchups.

    Kobe is the most dominant and best player in his generation. Let the hate aside.

  • Zabbah

    lol. it’s just one way to measure. but when u add them all up it says Duncan had a greater impact on the court than Kobe.

  • Caboose

    Damn good question.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Sergio, so Howard and Shaq are the only teammates Kobe’s had problems with aye?
    .
    Did I say he’s had as big of an impact as Kobe on offense? He’s had a very similar impact, although no, not as pronounced. But defensively……it’s not even close.
    .
    Shaq was by far the best player on those title teams. Go ahead and look at the stats. They support that. —- Shaq had favorable match ups? that’s your argument? Shaq had favorable match ups because he was always the best player. He went against Dikembe Mutombo, Rick Smits, and then that Nets abomination. That’s 2 all star big men. And one being one of the top 5 defensive bigs ever…….sorry, but that excuse, is flat out broken.
    .
    .
    Look at Tim Duncan’s 2002-03 season. Sh*t, look at the 02-03 playoffs. Kobe has never come close to doing that on both sides of the court. Never even kind of.

  • LakeShow

    Maybe you can show me how Duncan’s best season of 25ppg (12 years ago) is comparable to KB’s career average of the same number.

    Maybe you can tell me how Duncan’s career 50% FG’s is any better than KB’s 45% despite the difference in the difficulty of shots.

    Maybe you can tell me how All-Star appearances mean nothing.

    Maybe you can tell me how FT% doesn’t matter.

    Maybe you can tell me how the difference in scoring over 50 points for 4 consecutive games vs scoring 50 points in a game once ever.

    Maybe you can tell me the difference there is in having several different coaches and different players cycling in and out and having a consistent line up and great steady coaching.

    Maybe you can tell me how averaging 25-30 a game with great defense as a sidekick to a top 3 all time center is a bad thing.

    Maybe, I don’t give a sh*t about your opinion at all…

    Shoo fly.

  • Caboose

    Shaq. Yes it is.

  • LakeShow

    So you think Duncan is better than Kobe because of TS%, eFG% and PER?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    oh, misread that. i’m asleep.

  • danpowers

    imo kobe is the most gifted player in the league. maybe the most skilled player we have ever seen. and yes, wade’s game lacks more skills than kobe’s e.g. a consistent jump shot.

    wade has an assist ratio of 32,2% during his career and a turnover ratio of 13,7% while kobe put up 24,2% and 11,6%. to me that makes wade the better playmaker of both. i think that kobe could have been much better at setting up teammates, but i guess the triangle offense in all those years and maybe also his scoring mindset just lead to an output that made wade the better one in this category.

    sure, wade often gambled for steals on defense and he is no tony allen i didnt want to say that. to me it doesnt matter if his performance is a result of his physical attributes, skills or santa clause. what matters to me is that he takes less plays off on defense, is a little more commited than kobe on D. kobe could be the better defender, but he just doesnt commit on D in every game or at least not for 48 minutes of a game.
    we also know that blocked shots and steals dont equal defense, but wade has the little extra to go down as one of the best shot blocking guards of all time. and help defense is also a big part of the game even though man to man defense is a little more important for perimeter players. he might not be a great defensive guard but still a better defender than kobe. during his carreer he gave up 2 points less than kobe per 100 possessions.

    still, kobe is more talented than wade, has more weapons, better fundamentals, etc… its just that wade used what he got more efficiently than bryant did during quite some seasons.

    i dont want to write bryant worse than he is, that would be idiocy. i just think that wade played better during his career than you put him here.

  • Junior Taylor

    Actually the gap between Duncan’s impact on defense vs Kobe’s defensive impact is larger than the gap between Kobe’s offensive impact and Duncan’s offensive impact. Duncan is arguably one of the Top-5 greatest defensive players of all-time, we can’t say that say the same about Kobe’s offense.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    “Maybe you can show me how Duncan’s best season of 25ppg (12 years ago) is comparable to KB’s career average of the same number.”

    - Oh, scoring is everything….right

    .”Maybe you can tell me how Duncan’s career 50% FG’s is any better than KB’s 45% despite the difference in the difficulty of shots.”:

    - Kobe takes those shots by choice.

    .”Maybe you can tell me how All-Star appearances mean nothing.”

    - All Star Appearances mean nothing in a conversation about dominance

    .”Maybe you can tell me how FT% doesn’t matter.”

    - Why would that not matter?

    .”Maybe you can tell me how the difference in scoring over 50 points for 4 consecutive games vs scoring 50 points in a game once ever.”

    - Oh, scoring is everything…..right

    .”Maybe you can tell me the difference there is in having several different coaches and different players cycling in and out and having a consistent line up and great steady coaching.”

    - I don’t know, Tim Duncan never ran anyone out of town to blow up his team, so maybe, you tell me? How did the Lakers do after Kobe did that?

    .”Maybe you can tell me how averaging 25-30 a game with great defense as a sidekick to a top 3 all time center is a bad thing.”

    - Tell me how being less dominant than Tim Duncan is a “bad thing”……and there is your answer.

    .”Maybe, I don’t give a sh*t about your opinion at all…”
    .
    Awe, then why did you react like a little girl when I posted a statistic by itself?
    .
    Shoo fly?

  • LakeShow

    Of course not!

    Defense and PER is everything!

    Mind blown???

  • LakeShow

    Hold on, let’s check with nbk real quick to see if this is a good question or not….

    Like clock work : …

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    all i did was point out a statistic, i didn’t say or imply either of those things…..maybe, form an intelligent argument if you are soooo upset about it, rather than throwing your mental feces all over the place?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    in the last 15 years as a whole, the comparison is good and fine. the answer to “most dominant” should be obvious, but the comparison is good. Kobe is the better player. Duncan just has had a greater impact. Especially in terms of consistency.

  • LakeShow

    Really 13 ppg to 25ppg is not similar in difference as KB’s defense is compared to Duncan’s?

    I think so.

    Duncan has not carried his teams offense at all in over 8 years.

    KB completely carried his teams offense last year, while Duncan was a nice 2nd option.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Too many people are confusing dominant with good in this place. And the Kobe enthusiasts are in full overreact mode.

  • LakeShow

    That’s strange cause I definitely saw that you said that defense and PER are the only things that matter…
    At least as much as I saw myself say that offense is the only thing that matters.

  • Saleem Rainman

    i can agree there. i see nothing wrong with what Bron said, just paid his respects to a great player.

  • LakeShow

    TP, Manu. No it isn’t.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Kobe Scored Better. Is that what you needed to see? That doesn’t make him a more dominant player. Especially after your second point.
    .
    Then you point out another flat scoring statistic. Which is great. It really is. How many titles did it lead to? How relevant is it to who has been more dominant over the last 15 years?
    .
    .
    Why do you beg a person to crawl down to your intellectual level? You don’t like that I said something, so you begin to throw up all over the place because you think random stats make sense without any context?
    .
    What did I say about PER and defense that are left by themselves without any context? Where did I use only PER and Defensive stats to prove my point?
    .
    You used scoring Average. Shooting %. FT %. And Points Scored in a stretch of games.
    .
    All after you over-reacted to one stat that was posted by itself. How do those things prove your point? Is your point that you are not intelligent enough to carry on a conversation? You have a problem with something that I say, you can address it. Like a rational human.

  • D dot Sanchez

    real recognizes real.

  • D dot Sanchez

    bill simmons adores TD

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    LOL you used Duncan’s lowest season scoring against Kobe’s average? That proves your point? One season in Duncan’s career, in which he scored 13PPG in 28 minutes?
    .
    Oh, so we should just use Kobe’s rookie year to make an everything argument then huh? That’s the same dumbass logic.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    No. Kobe is a better basketball player.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    actually i don’t really think it’s a good question…..i just didn’t want to state it in order to avoid getting you all upset for saying you asked a bad question.
    .
    but that’s because i think the answer to both questions is obvious.
    .
    Duncan was more dominant.
    -
    Kobe was better.

  • Junior Taylor

    So…what about the season where Kobe put up a mind-boggling 7ppg? Forgot about that one? Or the fact that Kobe has never shot 47% in a season despite being labeled the greatest offensive weapon since MJ. Or the fact that Kobe has missed the most shots (in RS and Playoffs) in League history. Let’s just ignore all of that and cherry pick stats that put Kobe in a better light than Duncan.

  • RedRum

    Tim Duncan. Best post two-way player ever. Best player since MJ. I put him definitely over Bird and most likely over Magic. Remember, if not for the .4 shot in 04 (which followed one of the most clutch plays in the NBA ever) and Ginobili’s stupid foul in 06, TD easily would have had another two rings. The east was a joke then. All in all, great response from Lebron, a true historian of the game that appreciates TDs greatness.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    3 seasons of Kobe’s career he’s been without Shaq/Pau-Bynum/Howard = 246 games.

    .

    Duncan’s teams have never won less than 50 games. So we’ll just say 150 wins.

    .

    Those 3 season the Lakers won,

    . 34, 45, 42. = 121 wins.
    .
    That’s a 29 win difference if you want to give Kobe the handicap of not playing on a title contender.
    .
    832 – 761 – 29 = 42 more wins.

    Still pretty impressive, although it does need context.

  • RedRum

    Oh, as for the comparison with Kobe, it is not even close. I mean, really… if you know a bit of ball, you cannot call it close.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    which are only PPG and Assists.

  • LakeShow

    No. Side by side comparison of them 3 seasons back.
    You f*cking moron.

    Use your brain that is easily twice the size everyone else…

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    I know what that is idiot.
    .
    I can put a side by side of their rookie years up for you?
    .
    Want me to do that?

  • LakeShow

    It led to 1 more title than Duncan has is where it lead.

    I just know you haven’t watched the Lakers so it’s a just a mute point with you. You like Duncan better, you like his style and you appreciate defense more than offense.

    Congrats you side with Duncan.

    Hold on I have to go jerk off to the PER statistic. I’ll be back in several hours.

  • Caboose

    More “talented” basketball player.

  • LakeShow

    Sure.
    Then I’ll show you 2 season back when Duncan averaged 15ppg.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    “It led to 1 more title than Duncan has is where it lead.”

    - No it didn’t. Shaq led to more than half of Kobe’s titles. That’s how he got one more than Duncan. Kobe, a top 10 player ever, played with Shaq, a top 10 player ever.

    .

    That’s how he got more titles.

    .”I just know you haven’t watched the Lakers so it’s a just a mute point with you. You like Duncan better, you like his style and you appreciate defense more than offense.”

    - LOL, you know whether you want to admit it or not i watch more basketball then any person you converse with in your life.
    .
    And I actually think Kobe is a better player ever. Duncan has just been more dominant and his impact has been greater.
    .
    It’s not a big deal. It has nothing to do with favoritism.
    .
    Go do whatever it is you do when you are all upset about Kobe. It’s absolutely pathetic how you act when you perceive something to be negative.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    He’s better. More skilled. More versatile.
    .
    He’s less dominant. Less Productive. Less consistent.
    .
    I prefer dominance and production over skills and versatility.

  • LakeShow

    Tony Parker/Manu Ginobli

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    And you will again, be showing me the equivalent to Kobe’s second season…….
    .
    plus, scoring still isn’t everything. I don’t know why you think you are proving something. Kobe can be better at some stuff, and still be a less dominant/effective player.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    LOL. They are equal to Shaq? You mean Tim Duncan?
    .
    Shaq is to Tim Duncan as Kobe is to Manu Ginobili/Tony Parker

  • LakeShow

    Exactly. Equal talent.

  • Conor

    James is just upset that Dr. J picked Kobe over him.

    I didn’t realize that Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant decided which players they play with, nor that they dictated injuries. Other players, including Duncan, said that Kobe was the best player in the League between 2001-2010.

    Let’s use numbers, though:

    - 7 Finals versus 5.

    - Bryant is 22-8 against Duncan in Playoff matchups.

    Back to peer opinion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liIYL7YcePI

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    LOL….
    .
    that implies Shaq/Duncan were more important than Kobe/Ginobili-Parker
    .
    Shaq/Duncan > Kobe/Ginobili-Parker
    .
    You take away Kobe from Shaq’s teams, there were still guys in the league that could fill in.
    .
    You take away Parker/Ginobili from Duncan’s teams, there were still guys in the league that could fill in.
    .
    You take away Shaq? You are dead.
    .
    You take away Duncan? You are dead.
    .
    Equal Talent? Sure. But not in the way that you are arguing.

  • LakeShow

    Last 9 seasons:

    Duncan: 18-10-3-2(blk)

    Kobe: 29-5-5-1.5(stl)

    Who has been the most dominant over the last 9 seasons?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    you again think Talent = Dominance?
    .
    That Popovich video was just as irrelevant the last time you used it.

  • LakeShow

    Riiight…. I’m arguing the “other” type of talent.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Probably Bryant. Although, in the last 9 seasons the championship count is 2-2…….but the Lakers have won 2 head to head series vs 1.
    .
    Probably Kobe. But it’s extremely close.

  • Conor

    I see you answered the video portion, but nothing else.

    Tell me the ways that Duncan has dominated the game which Kobe has failed to replicate, nbk. I’d like a good laugh.

  • LakeShow

    Damn… 22-8
    Thanks, I didn’t even have that one in the arsenal.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    you are arguing that Shaq is the equal to Manu and Parker.
    .
    Which is stupid.
    .
    And wrong.

  • LakeShow

    No i’m not.

    Shaq = Duncan
    Kobe = Manu+Tony

    That’s what I was arguing.

    dodo

  • Junior Taylor

    How about Duncan’s 7 seasons to being his career and Kobe’s 8 seasons to being his career? How about showing those numbers? Never mind, you are too busy cherry picking stats.

  • LakeShow

    I haven’t seen you bring up a single fact in support of KB… Hmm cherry picking stats are we??

  • Junior Taylor

    I gave the edge to Kobe offensively but in terms of everything else….defense, rebounding, leadership and winning at consistent level, Duncan has Kobe beat.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    22-8 is wrong. It’s 18-12.
    .
    12-7 with Shaq.
    .
    6-5 without him.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    well the other stuff is irrelevant.

    .

    7 finals versus 5

    (4 finals with Shaq)

    .

    22-8? You mean 18-12? And who has really been better in that match up? http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=duncati01

    (Scroll Down).
    .
    Why would I address those things?

  • Conor

    Sorry, I was just about to type that. HaHaHa

    Well, still 18-12.

  • LakeShow

    Yeah, I don’t know who the better player is.

    I’m not pompous enough to think that I could be the deciding voice on who is better between two guys who both have had incredible and successful careers but on completely opposite ends of the spectrum.

    I’ll leave that to others with greater ego’s than my own to think they know the answer.

  • Conor

    Duncan has played with David Robinson, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobli. Who cares that Kobe played with Shaq?

    My bad. I didn’t recall the proper record, but it’s still 18-12.

    Individual stats are forever skewed for Kobe because of his first two seasons.

  • LakeShow

    You can’t just feed me those man! I’ll bite! haha

    12-7 with Tony Parker and Manu, 6-5 with them… also…

  • Conor

    Hey, SLAM, where is the article about Dr. J acknowledging that Kobe’s better than James? Oh right, it doesn’t fit the narrative-du-jour.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    so you just use the phrase “led to more titles” indiscriminately?
    .
    got it.

  • Caboose

    Right, which seems like it’s talent vs dominance. Not “better.”

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Shaq is a top 10 player ever. Uhm, in this conversation? everyone who is taking part should care.
    .
    well, Duncan was doing those things against Shaq. Also as a rookie. The thing is, we are talking about their careers. Who has been more dominant over time. Not about a select few seasons that fit your narrative.
    .
    And i’ve already said i think Kobe was actually better. Duncan was just more dominant/productive/consistent. Which everything but the argument for “ringz” supports.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    i think of talent like i think of potential. not as skill.
    .
    i have a ton of skills that would translate to a very very good basketball player. but i don’t have the talents to use those skills like a very very good basketball player.
    .
    Duncan has more talent than Kobe naturally. But if we put them through a battery of tests to see who had more basketball skills, and was the better overall basketball player…..Kobe would probably win.
    .
    It’s the same argument I present between Shaq and Hakeem.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    i don’t think it’s inarguable either way. the way i think of dominance, to me, it’s pretty clear that Duncan was moreso. And the same goes for “better” in Bryant’s favor.
    .
    it kind of depends what you prefer. but i don’t think anyone needs to get upset over anything anybody says about it.

  • Caboose

    I think I’m misunderstanding your meaning of talent vs skill.

    I can shoot free throws better than Dwight. Assume I can’t get any better but he can and probably will. Am I more talented or more skilled?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    well both if he doesn’t have the ability to overtake you at some point…..
    .
    here i think of it like this,
    .
    talent is natural.
    skill is learned.

  • Caboose

    Fair. Kobe is more skilled, Duncan is more talented.

  • Caboose

    The only thing I took umbrage with was “better.” Seems like that would imply more talented, more skilled, AND more dominant.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    when i put all aspects of a player under an umbrella i think of that as “greater”
    .
    this is ridiculous. let’s just make sure i realize this.

  • Caboose

    Haha now you started better vs greater. We suck.

  • robb

    15 years? Dominant? wouldn’t that be Shaq then? I mean he’s got 4 championships too. Or I’m not getting this right?

  • King David

    not in this case lol

  • LakeShow

    Sh*t man, what you doing getting upset over a comment page…

  • jay

    no doubt, Duncan is for sure consistent and dominant, but it seems to me that lebron and yall don’t know the skill level it takes to be consistent playing the type of game kobe does and has played throughout his career

  • danpowers

    as if bryant brought his lakers to these 7 finals on his own. just check back on the names that all these lakers teams featured that faced the spurs in the playoffs during the years. come on man…

    bryant has always been impressive, there is no doubt. he is also the most talented player on earth imo. wont argue that.
    a guy like duncan just does much more for your team than kobe. he brings more on defense and offense, directly by what he does and indirectly by how opposing teams are forced to react to him. if you want to win big with bryant as your main guy, you need more support. and luckily the lakers could afford to provide bryant with that for many years.

  • danpowers

    didnt get it. what does dominance mean to you? being the better player of having the greater impact?

  • danpowers

    you are talking about overall ppg to prove anything? uhm…

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Domininance how I see it is about how much a player affected entire games in the path of being consistently successful.
    .
    Better implies skills and versatility to me.

  • whooo!

    thing is, Duncan peaked at a completely different time than Kobe. Duncan was all-nba 1st team since his rookie year, and for the next decade he was all-nba and all-defense each year. back to back MVP’s when he was 26 & 27 (’02-’03), while Kobe’s MVP and era of being top dog was when he was 30 (5yrs later, in ’08). people have short-term memories and will always side with what’s newer.

    his actual peak was 10 YEARS AGO! he dismantled Kobe and Shaq’s Lakers (ended their 3-peat w/ a 37 & 16 game in LA), then capped off the Finals going 2blocks shy of a quadruple double. if he was a celtic, knick, or laker, that ’03 20-20-10-8 would’ve put him at god-status. dude started slowing down only around ’08, when Kobe was starting to peak and about to win rings w/ Gasol & Bynum.

  • Noompsi

    @Nbk…. who u got and in how many?? I bet the wife/kids on the Spurs in 6!

  • danpowers

    agreed

  • i_ball

    And Robert Horry;)

  • Sérgio

    No, Kobe had problems with others too. Obviously, Duncan is a better teammate than Kobe, but I find necessary to point out that hasn’t played with difficult players like Bryant.

    Kobe’s impact on offense is, at least, just as big as Duncan’s on offense. And I know that Bryant has not been very good defensively in the last 3 years, but, before that, he was a lockdown defender, a disruptive force.

    In 2000, Shaq was obviously better. But in 2001 and 2002, their numbers were pretty similar before the Finals, and even after that, Shaqs got only a little higher.

    And yes, he had favourable matchups. Rik Smits was washed up, in the last year of his career, only averaging 13 ppg, 5 rpg and 23 mpg (in the regular season, in the Playoffs, these numbers dropped even more). Mutombo, while a great defender, was way too skinny to hold his ground against a mammoth like Shaq. And I dont even need to discuss about the Nets.

    As of regular seasons, ok, just look at Kobe’s production in 2000-2001, 2002-2003, 2005-2006, 2006-2007, 2007-2008, 2008-2009 and 2009-2010.

    Regarding the Playoffs, I recommend you to look at 2000-2001, 2007-2008, 2008-2009 and 2009-2010

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    If you can’t see that Shaq was the best player on those championship teams we can’t have a conversation. It was obvious. Are you like 19, this seems to be one of those things young Kobe fans always seem delusional about. I’m not going to argue that the sky is blue if you are colorblind. You are going to have to just live with disagreeing with my opinion. I am not having that conversation. .
    I am well versed in all of their stats. Apparently you don’t know how to read what you are seeing. Those seasons from Kobe were great, but not Tim Duncan in 03 great. .
    And he was an elite defender, full time, for 3 seasons. Other than that, he picked his spots. He was inconsistent. And he was wild off the ball. But he could lock people down for stretches, and he did. But his all-defensive selections are a black mark on the award system. And this is a widely held belief by just about everyone who doesn’t consider Kobe their favorite player.

  • Serg

    15 years extends into Shaq’s prime. Disagree with Lebron. But respect Bron’s acknowledgement of Timmy. Very classy.

  • makoface

    when people say better vs dominant- its just a way of giving big men and little men props. two guys of equal brilliance at different positions- the smaller guy is always going to be “better”. more skilled, more versatile, more exciting, and the big guy is usually going to get hte nod of diminance for sheer positional size. it came up first when shaq and kobe were ont he same team- and shaq was oh kobes the best, but im the most dominant.
    bugger all that- dominant- IS best. its the problem with perception of big guys since the guard dominated modern era. why cant a big guy be the best player in the league.? duncan is that guy. he s won every year- regardless of cast, his teammates like him, never won less that 50, he s been consistent, a better leader, made his teammates better than kobe ever did, and has won almost as many titles for less money on teams that have cost alot less. if you re any GM going back in time- you draft duncan over kobe, it ll cost you less, you get more wins, and teammates wil become hall of famers and have higher trade value. all of kobes teammates leave calling him an arsehole. only in the past 2 years has kobe emerged and matured as a “leader”.

  • Zabbah

    It is one way to measure who’s better. Look at it from every angle and Duncan was a better player during his career. e.g. Duncan’s got three Finals MVP, Kobe has two. That’s another way to find out who’s had the better career. Regular season wins and playoff wins is another. Does any of this make sense to you?

  • shutup

    moot point, not mute. carry on.

  • Conor

    My bad, LakeShow, I did that based on a statistic I didn’t remember properly. 18-12 is still 4(+2) v. 3 series.

  • Conor

    LOL

  • D dot Sanchez

    haha i gotta say yes

  • Guest

    in an intelligent team concept in which guys play the game how it is supposed to be played no single player has to carry a teams offense anyway. duncan just happenss to play in such a team

  • Mike From Spain

    Look what we did Lake, we created a monster :)

  • kobesucks

    the media hype and bias will continue to say that kobe is the best because of “5 rings” and “best scorer” etc and all the bull garbage that comes out of their mouths….the fact is ur precious p***** shoots 40% in the finals…..shaq is a 3x finals mvp…kobe is a punk who was lucky enough to play with one of the 6 or 7 greatest to ever play….tim duncan played with an old admiral who was literally garbage and tony parker who didn’t come up until 07…look it up….duncan/shaq are the best finals performers of the modern era other than jordan….ill take the guys who did it when it mattered most over a guy who scores in the regular season

  • kobesucks

    what? ur contradicting urself

    scoring in the regular season means ur dominant?

  • kobesucks

    god ur an idiot….duncan won in 99 and 03 with parker as a role player who averaged 13 ppg….manu was good in 2005 and thats about it…hes overrated always has been…in 2007 parker became parker

  • Drig

    Well……………um……….this is gonna be a long one…..

    First of all, I’m hoping nbk didn’t mean a few things which he said when he went head to head with lakeshow.

    Next, I have no problem with calling Duncan more dominant than Kobe. Kobe has three things going against him in this discussion :

    1. Continuity with Pop, Manu and TP. Yes, Kobe had Phil, Shaq and later Pau. Which is why he has 5 rings. He had those 5 rings because he had some continuity with them. Continuity is damn important.

    1a. To the guys who say Kobe had Shaq who is better than Manu and TP, yes. However, Spurs had more depth every damn season back in the day. Kobe-Shaq were simply too much.

    2. SG vs C……..or in other words, the impact of a big vs a perimeter player

    3. Stats……Timmy is a god by any damn metric compared to Kobe, whose stats are by far the most misleading and befuddling of any top 10 all-time caliber player.

    The problem with Kobe is that unlike Duncan and Shaq, he’s STILL very unpredictable (if that makes sense) . At his best IMO, he’s the most dominant of the three because of his ability to take the game away from any team with his skillset, which outranks any other player’s in nba history. However, any less than his best, can be really frustrating to watch. You don’t get the same with TD or Shaq. Part of it is because of the position they play in. Most of it is because they don’t have that scorer’s mentality and PLAY TO THEIR STRENGTHS RATHER THAN EGO ( In Shaq’s case, both are the same lol )

    Timmy’s a LOT more consistent and his worst performances are better than Kobe’s worst by a mile. Plus, he’s a big who can have a greater impact on D.

    Consistency : TD ~ KB > Shaq

    Dominance (over a year ): Shaq > TD > KB

    Dominance ( over a stretch of games ) : KB > TD > Shaq

    All-Time : KB > TD > Shaq.

    At the end of the day, that’s not bad TBH. Kobe’s supposed to have less impact on D than the guys he’s being compared to. That’s how it works. Plus, not being as dominant as two of the best big men ever when primarily operating from the perimeter isn’t something to laugh at. It’s not slighting Kobe either.

    Kobe can be as efficient. Just like he showed last season he can be a damn good playmaker. He hasn’t managed to stay in that mentality and produce long enough to make people overlook what those 2 guys did over the span of their careers.

    A lot of discussions about Kobe are gonna end up like this.

    Props to Duncan and what he’s doing so far. However, Shaq deserves his due when dominant is the word being thrown about. Shaq’s the guy.

  • kobesucks

    3 finals mvps 2 mvps

    kobe shoots 40% in the finals….ur blind if u think he’s on duncans level its not even close

    continuity? parker was a scrub in 03 speedy claxton and stephen jackson finished games and in 99 half those guys retired…manu didn’t play well until 05 and in 07 parker became parker

    kobe played with a 3x finals mvp…duncan never played with anyone remotely close to his level…robinson was old and on the way out and still overrated

  • Drig

    Shaq has 1 MVP. Kobe has 1 MVP. Nash has 2 MVPs. Wade has zero MVPs. KG has 1 MVP. Duncan has 2 MVPs. LBJ has 4 MVPs.

    If we take into accound ’06, I’d say it’s pretty much even.

    Yes, Duncan has 3 finals MVPs to Kobe’s 2. The issue here is Shaq absolutely dominated in the finals. However, Kobe was neck and neck with Shaq and in ’01, better than him in the West ( the WCF was the NBA finals back in the day ).

    2002 vs Nets : 27 pts, 5 ast, 4 tos, 6 rebs, 51% FG%, 54% 3PTFG% ( SHOULD HAVE BEEN MVP if the West was considered as well)

    Ummm……….continuity as in having the same team and coach and system over a lot of years. That’s the reason why they’re back to where they are right now. Plus, you seem to be confusing with continuity leading to titles. NO. Continuity leads to consistency which helps lead the team to the title.

    Kobe shoots 40% in the finals.

    2000 : Struggled in his first Finals appearance
    2001 : Got injured mid-series. Still gave momentum to LAL with the win in OT.
    2002. Dominated.
    2004 : Struggled vs Detroit. But was still by far the best perimeter oriented player as far as FG was concerned.
    2008 : Struggled vs Boston and their semi – zone D. Arguably one of the best defenses of all time.
    2009 : Played well vs Orlando.
    2010 : Aside from game 7, Kobe was doing pretty much all he could and doing it very very well.

    He’s a perimeter player. Duncan would rightfully be considered a scrub if he would shoot 40% when he plays closer to the rim.

    1999 and 2003 : Played well and dominated
    2005 : Struggled mightily vs Detroit. (41% )
    2007 : Played below par vs Cle (44% )

    Funny how Duncan has also struggled by his standards to get going in the Finals eh? Which isn’t something to be surprised about since we’re talking about two top tier teams duking it out.

    This isn’t to put Duncan down. Fact of the matter is, it’s actually a credit to him to put in enough all-round performances for everyone to look past the FG% and see him lead his team to the title.

    FG% isn’t the be-all end-all stat. Just wanted to help you understand that. It SHOULD be used in context.

  • Drig

    Kobe killed Spurs during the 3peat days. Even when they lost. Kobe killed the Spurs in 08 as well. Just wanted to make sure you know that.

    Kobe has always played well vs Spurs. Considering the Spurs, Kings and Blazers were the best 2 teams along with the lakers during their 3 peat run and Kobe performing on par with Shaq in the last 2 titles and performing beyond what was expected of him vs Blazers, I’d say he’s a guy who scores not just in the regular season but someone who can do the same in the post season as well.

  • Drig

    Aside from Shaq and Smush…….which teammate has said Kobe’s scum exactly?

    Not Odom. Not Butler. Not Sasha. Not Fox. Not Shaw. Not Fisher. Not Farmar. Not Pau. Not Ariza. Not Sessions. Not Bynum ( although he did say Kobe limit his game ) .

    Stop making stuff up. There’s enough evidence on-court to justify picking Duncan over Kobe to resort to stuff like salaries etc.

    BTW, wanna know something interesting? Kobe earned 11 million during the 3peat run per year. If anything, the salary he’s gonna be getting next year would be compensating for what he lost out on in those days.

    Next, given a chance to do so, Kobe would unquestionably take a pay cut if the team around him can improve now. UNQUESTIONABLY..

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    did i say that?

  • Drig

    True. Co-sign about everything but the dismantling part. He beat them once. Lost in the following year. That is not dismantling.

  • whooo!

    i was referring to dismantling the ’03 lakers, who obviously rebounded by adding Malone & GP the next year.

  • Drig

    My bad then. Sorry about that :) .

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Address what I said if you have a problem with it.

    .1 – 1a. To the guys who say Kobe had Shaq who is better than Manu and TP, yes. However, Spurs had more depth every damn season back in the day. Kobe-Shaq were simply too much.

    (actually, Tim Duncan is widely considered to be the all-time guy to have done the most with the least. Saying the Spurs had more depth doesn’t actually mean it’s true. Those Lakers teams were stacked. Absolutely stacked. Duncan never played on a team as good as the Lakers 3-peat team.)

    .

    For Example, the 1998-99 Spurs team that won the title, and is widely acknowledged as Duncan’s “best” team consists of a rotation of….

    .

    - Avery Johnson (33MPG)

    - Mario Ellie (27MPG)

    - Sean Elliot (30MPG)

    - Tim Duncan (39MPG)

    - David Robinson (32MPG)

    - Jaren Jackson! (18MPG) <– Do you even know who that is?

    - Steve Kerr (17MPG) <– Yeah, 33 Year Old, 6'1" Steve Kerr was 2nd off the bench

    - Jerome Kersey (15MPG) Kobe’s

    .

    You acknowledge that Duncan is more reliable and more dominant…..

    “Plus, not being as dominant as two of the best big men ever when primarily operating from the perimeter isn’t something to laugh at. It’s not slighting Kobe either”

    “Timmy’s a LOT more consistent and his worst performances are better than Kobe’s worst by a mile. Plus, he’s a big who can have a greater impact on D.”

    .
    And then when you rank them, you still say Kobe and Duncan are “~” with consistency, and without any real reason, you put Kobe > Duncan all-time.
    .
    Shaq is not the most dominant player over the last 15 years. He hasn’t been relevant for a 3rd of that time. The conversation isn’t about Shaq.

  • whooo!

    so i didn’t even realize till now that TD and Kobe both played against similar opponents in the Finals for 2 years — NJ in 02/03 and DET in 04/05 until you brought up the Kobe Finals average.

    Kobe in ’02 Finals vs NJ: 27/6/5/
    Duncan in ’03 Finals vs NJ: 24/17/5/5blks (all team highs)
    notable stat: Game 6, TD finishes with 20/20/10/8

    Kobe in ’04 vs DET: 23/3/4/1.8st
    Duncan in ’05 vs DET: 21/14/2/2.1bl
    notable stat: kobe missed 70 fg’s, while shaq ATTEMPTED 84.

    (btw, in the WCF in’02 Kobe put up 27/6/4as on on 37%fg; shaq did 30/14/2/2.4blk on 53%fg — taking both Finals & WCF no way Kobe was mvp)

  • whooo!

    oh, and the “below par” vs cleveland in ’07 still resulted meant he average 18/12/4/1.3st/2.3blks. dude’s “below par” series are what others are lauded for.

  • Drig

    I know that TD is considered to have the most with the least outta the three. I’m talking about the team that Duncan had when the Lakers were having their 3peat. Outside of Kobe and Shaq, none of the Lakers’ players could’ve been considered to be clearly better.

    The Spurs were the best defensive team during that period and atleast a top 5 offense throughout. They weren’t chopped liver.

    I put ~ for Timmy and Kobe because :

    1. Kobe’s perimeter oriented perimeter player while Timmy’s a big.

    2. Tim had his minutes regulated while Kobe hasn’t been eased in since ’10.

    3. Kobe’s been producing at an elite level a slight tad more than Duncan ( 14 years vs 12 ) . Part of it is because Duncan’s minutes were reduced. I realize that him playing more minutes would’ve improved his stats across the boards but that would’ve also reduced his longevity imo.

    Hope that’s fine.

    LBJ didn’t say Duncan was the most dominant player over the last 15 years. He said Duncan was the most dominant player of the last 15 years.

    BIG difference there. Shaq’s peak was at the start of the time period. As such, Shaq was the most dominant of the last 15 years.

  • Drig

    27/6/4 on 42% shooting in the SAC series. Not sure where you got the 37% from. Both Kobe’s and Shaq’s FG% fell a bit this series.

    I don’t get why you put the notable stats in there……….Fact of the matter is, both of them dominated vs the Nets and struggled vs Detroit.

  • whooo!

    including this year, Kobe’ teammates have included 6 first-teamers, 3 second-teamers, and 4 third-teamers.

    During the same stretch, Duncan has had 3 second-teamers and 5 third- teamers. dude’s never played with an all-nba 1st-team teammate (though this year Chris Paul and Paker were basically 1a and 1b for pgs).

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    “1. Kobe’s perimeter oriented perimeter player while Timmy’s a big.”

    - That’s called an excuse. Jordan was more consistent and dominant. He was a wing player. Magic was more consistent and dominant, he was a Point Guard.

    . Kobe is less so, so he is less so. There is no crutch.

    .”2. Tim had his minutes regulated while Kobe hasn’t been eased in since ’10.”

    . That’s also an excuse. So what? Kobe is playing more minutes because Kobe wants to play more minutes. No coach has been able to bench him since 2004. He said as much.

    .”3. Kobe’s been producing at an elite level a slight tad more than Duncan ( 14 years vs 12 ) . Part of it is because Duncan’s minutes were reduced. I realize that him playing more minutes would’ve improved his stats across the boards but that would’ve also reduced his longevity imo.”

    - Kobe has been producing points at an elite level 14 to 12…….other than that, Duncan has still been better than Kobe is just about every way. You can even look at assists, Kobe has more, but he also plays more minutes and has the ball more. The same argument for why you think Kobe is at a disadvantage because he plays more minutes, works in the opposite direction for why Duncan was still more effective in ways other than scoring.

    .”LBJ didn’t say Duncan was the most dominant player over the last 15 years. He said Duncan was the most dominant player of the last 15 years” – there is no difference in those two things…..

    - Come again?

    “Shaq’s peak was at the start of the time period. As such, Shaq was the most dominant of the last 15 years.”
    - and LeBron’s is at the end of it….what’s your point?
    Is LeBron part of this conversation too, if you are really only measuring 10 years in a conversation about 15?
    .

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    thank you for that.

  • Drig

    Um……..you’re missing the point here. Wasn’t my sarcasm clear here??

    Wasn’t this clear enough?

    “This isn’t to put Duncan down. Fact of the matter is, it’s actually a credit to him to put in enough all-round performances for everyone to look past the FG% and see him lead his team to the title.

    FG% isn’t the be-all end-all stat. Just wanted to help you understand that. It SHOULD be used in context.”

    That was to educate the poster about there are things beyond FG%.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    hahahah

  • whooo!

    ya, the ’02 wcf was a complete mistype, good call. the difference with NJ is that TD’s dominance is on a whole ‘nother level than what you call Kobe’s “dominance”. nobody can look at those numbers and say, “ya, they both dominated.” you can’t imagine anyone today averaging those stats for an entire Finals.

    and even in series where he “struggles”, you look at that and still see how he impacts the rest of the game.

  • Drig

    And WHEN did I say Duncan played with better talent elite players than Kobe did?

    I said outside of Shaq and Kobe, the Spurs were better as a group and had more depth.

    Also, tell me how many of those first, 2nd and 3rd teamers played together at any given point. On a yearly basis for both. That’d make it better IMO.

  • whooo!

    fair enough. though i don’t think there’s anyway to convince a guy whose name is “kobesucks” to think otherwise, rationally or not, lol.

  • shutup

    Duncan has never run players out of San Antonio, or chucked the ball so much that Ownership had to trade away one of the greatest players at the time, and of all time. In case you can’t figure out who i’m talking about, I’m talking about Shaq.

  • Drig

    Jordan was elite for 11 years. Kobe has been elite for 14 years while having significantly more mileage. I was talking about the mileage and the stats dropoff.

    I wasn’t talking about it on a game to game basis. I clearly said Duncan was more consistent didn’t I?

    I meant to say that outta all the perimeter oriented players ( Jordan played a ton in the post. Magic was all over the place but did most of his damage in the paint ), Kobe’s probably had the longest peak ( think guys like Bird, West, Mavarich, Baylor etc. )

    Kobe’s minutes are regulated by the team’s performance and Phil’s input. BOTH. Don’t disagree with that. However, at the end of the day, they weren’t regulated. We have no idea of whether having Pop earlier would’ve changed Kobe ( How I wish that would’ve happened )

    Merits of playing more minutes :

    More points
    More rebounds
    More assists
    More ball-handling duties ( when hands are good and you got speed to take others off the dribble )

    Demerits of playing more minutes :

    Fatigue leading to lower FG% ( not saying this is teh reason Kobe’s FG% is wrong but it’s impact is felt on other parts of the game )

    Less energy to exert on D/O depending on the kind of specialist you are.

    More TOs.

    More ballhandling duties ( When hands are effed up and you don’t feel healthy )

    More chances of injury (………)

    Duncan was the better defender. On ball ( in the post only ) and off the ball. However, he wasn’t the better creator. Rebounding, both have shown to be elite at their respective positions.

    Over the last 15 years would imply over the entire 15 year period.

    Of the last 15 years would imply any particular year of the last 15.

    Yes, LeBron is part of the convo. And no, Shaq’s peak was still more destructive.

  • Sergio

    How abou considering WHEN those guys were elected to the first team? Only Shaq was a first teamer with Kobe. Malone, Payton, Nash were all washed up when they came to join the Lakers. And Howard was a third teamer this year. So lets not forget to put the facts in a context.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    This isn’t a conversation about who was most dominant for a 3 year stretch. it’s the ENTIRE 15 years. What is so hard to understand about that?

    .

    Jordan was elite for 11 years? He played for 16. Was injured for 1. On Washington for 2. All the other years he averaged at least 26PPG and got his team to the playoffs…… so you wanna change that to 13 to 14? Or actually, 13 to 13, since Kobe wasn’t actually “elite” until his 4th year. 3rd year he was really really good, but didn’t reach “elite” status until year 4.

    .

    “I meant to say that outta all the perimeter oriented players ( Jordan played a ton in the post. Magic was all over the place but did most of his damage in the paint )”

    - Jordan played in the post about how much Kobe has. Magic did most of his damage in the paint? what? you mean that’s where he scored his points? because that’s not what made him dominant.
    .
    And again, you are using excuses. Kobe just wasn’t as dominant because he wasn’t as dominant. There are of course reasons, but those reasons don’t change what is true. You are using those things to try and strengthen Kobe’s argument. But really, they don’t do anything but show player’s capable of doing things that Kobe wasn’t.
    .
    Kobe shot the shots he shot, and played the way he plays, because that’s how he likes to play. Kobe isn’t great despite the way he plays the game. LOL

  • Drig

    Gotta try. Even if he’s gonna hate, I atleast want him to hate Kobe for better reasons lol.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    oh i have Miami in 6.

  • Drig

    And Kobe impacts the rest of the game when his scoring isn’t effective enough as well ( notice I said effective and not efficient ).

    We’re talking about all time top 10 caliber players here. Both of them exert more effort into other facets of their game when their primary weapons stop working.

    That stat line would be considered a lock for ANY Finals MVP award. It wouldn’t look outta place at all.

    Again, you’ll notice I never compared both of those series because the teams are entirely different and I didn’t give a damn about the Spurs back then lol. I actually hated their guts so bad it hurt at times during those days. So, I have no good memory of what happened in that series except that Duncan dominated.

    Also, in your opinion, is 24/17/5/5 really THAT more impressive than the series totals accumulated by any other legendary big? ( Shaq averaged 36 pts, 12 rebs at something like 65% shooting or something one series off the top of my head lol…….)

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Shaq. = 6 first teams with Lakers.

    -

    Andrew Bynum – Pau Gasol – Shaq = 3 Second Team Seasons

    -

    Pau Gasol – Eddie Jones (20 games tho) = 3 Third Team Seasons

  • Drig

    My bad about the first part. I re-read the article and found LBJ said 15 years all together. The SLAM article was headlined the most dominant player of the last 15 years. I went back to the headline to confirm what LBJ had said when I posted this lol. Which was why I was so prepared with your question. My bad.

    Jordan played for 15 years. I didn’t include the Wiz years, teh year he had a broken leg and the year he returned from baseball because his play was all over the place that season. No consistency on a game to game basis. That’d make it 11 no?

    Fine. let’s start with Kobe’s 4th year.

    Yes, I meant scoring when I said Magic did most of his damage in the paint. His transition game, tempo control and floor awareness and versatility are what made him great.

    So nbk………let me get this straight :

    You’re saying playing more minutes doesn’t have an impact on the player’s longevity? Esp. an elite player’s?

    I wanna know about this : What other player has dominated more than Kobe when playing a perimeter oriented game? Don’t give me MJ or Magic. You know as well as I do they didn’t have perimeter oriented games.

    I already said KB was not as dominant as TD or Shaq. Exactly what are you trying to point out here?

    Kobe shot the shots he shot and played the way he plays not just because of what he likes but also because of what the team needs him to do. He hasn’t been shy about jacking shots up. He also hasn’t missed a beat whenever he becomes a playmaker.

    Again, we’re getting drawn into the same debate we’ve had over and over about Kobe’s ego vs Kobe’s supporting cast and other outside factors.

    Let’s just agree to disagree and move on.

    Kobe isn’t great despite the way he plays the game? Was that a typo? If it wasn’t, then………….wow…….

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Kobe isn’t great despite the way he plays the game? Was that a typo? If it wasn’t, then………….wow…….

    .

    you are misreading.

    .

    i’m saying you are making it sound like Kobe is great despite how he plays. when he’s great because of how he plays.

    .

    How he plays has limitations. Nothing about Kobe is “despite” these issues. You can’t use them as excuses. And that’s what it seems like you are doing.

    .

    .”You’re saying playing more minutes doesn’t have an impact on the player’s longevity? Esp. an elite player’s?”

    - No, i’m saying you can’t use minutes played as a crutch. Kobe’s longevity and dearth of minutes is one of the things that makes him absolutely great, it isn’t something to use to say “well, Duncan’s minutes were managed better, that’s why he’s been more consistent”

    .

    i didn’t think about Jordan’s 1995 season, my bad. Let’s take that one away. So yeah you are right, he had 11 elite seasons. I don’t know what kind of math i was doing to come up with 16.

    .”I wanna know about this : What other player has dominated more than Kobe when playing a perimeter oriented game? Don’t give me MJ or Magic. You know as well as I do they didn’t have perimeter oriented games.”

    - None. Nobody. Kobe is a top 10 player ever. (#10 by my count). It just so happens that 7 of the other guys were bigs.

    .

    .”Kobe shot the shots he shot and played the way he plays not just because of what he likes but also because of what the team needs him to do. He hasn’t been shy about jacking shots up. He also hasn’t missed a beat whenever he becomes a playmaker.”

    - this is true for a couple seasons. And none of those seasons came when LA was competing for a title.

    .
    And Phil Jackson even said he tried to get Kobe to play more like LeBron James……. (which would imply, less selfish play, more correct basketball plays). I mean, I don’t get how you can argue that it’s what the team wanted him to do, when the coach says it isn’t?
    .
    .
    And that’s fine to disagree. I just wanted you to explain how you saying Kobe is less dominant, and less consistent, while still saying he’s >Duncan? I don’t see the logic there.

  • LakeShow

    Naw I literally mute his points. lol

  • Drig

    Now I get it. I didn’t want to make excuses for Kobe’s play. I wanted to simply point out the differences in Duncan’s and Kobe’s aging. Kobe’s playing more minutes and he has done a good job of maintaining his statistical output despite becoming older. Duncan on the other hand has seen his minutes reduce but his effectiveness has not diminished, over the course of the season.

    This makes it difficult to compare how Kobe would do in the former and Duncan in the latter and hence that’s another point that’s a push when I considered putting KB and Duncan in the same consistency range YEAR ON YEAR ( for example, Kobe’s 09 vs Kobe’s 08 and not Kobe vs Duncan in 09 )

    The only reason I’ve got Kobe above Duncan right now is because as you said yourself, Kobe’s the only guy who’s managed to be dominant with a perimeter oriented game.

    You probably know by now that I value skills just as much as I value efficiency, sometimes even more. This is one such case. Personally, I don’t think my rankings are gonna change even after this Finals……

    1. Magic / Lakers Fan’d

    2. MJ

    3. Wilt

    4. KAJ

    5 and 6. Russell / Bird

    7. Kobe

    8. Duncan

    9 and 10. Shaq/Hakeem

    Still not sure whether Bird or Kobe should be in 7 and whether Big O / West should replace Shaq/Hakeem on the list……….

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    ok i understand your point of view a lot better after this.
    .
    All-Time wise, i have 2 different lists. top 10 “greatest” (my stock list), and 10 “best”

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    oh ok, i understand your POV much better after that.
    .
    list wise, i have 2 different lists. the 10 greatest (stock, what I normally refer too) and the 10 “best” — Kobe, well, almost everyone, has a different place on each list.

  • kobesucks

    i think very rationally

    kobe is the 10th best player ever

    but to say he’s on the level of jordan, russell, magic, wilt, kareem, shaq, and duncan is laughable

  • kobesucks

    kobe never performed on par with shaq not true at all

    35,15,3,3 is what shaq put up in the 3peat

    if he performed on par they would’ve been co-mvps

  • kobesucks

    actually fox and fish complained about him during the three peat

    and bynum and howard both saw first hand what kobe does

  • shutup

    I thought you were being funny at first, it was in a recent movie, can’t remember which. Think it had Will Ferrel though. I’m a Spurs fan so I’m biased, but your discussion was a good read (minus name calling of course)

  • LakeShow

    I have mass respect for Timmy. I hate arguing against him, that’s why I did such a poor job. I have no problem with TD being considered > than KB and vice versa.

    Both sides have good arguments.

    Big nog vs Werdum tomorrow!

  • shutup

    gonna be a good fight, expecting them to stand and bang, Werdum has improved his stand up and they are about even on the mat.

  • JL

    Don’t know where that came from. I think it’s clearer when it’s stated that Kobe is more talented than the average NBA player in many different areas or skills. He also was very skilled in those areas. TD is more talented than Kobe in terms of rebounding, shot blocking, shooting near the rim (I think at least in terms of post moves), etc. But not most other things. So if you take the all around evaluation of a player, Kobe will average out higher, but Duncan uses his strongest aspects to be dominant. Not saying Kobe isn’t dominant, but Duncan is just so steady.

  • JL

    I’m not a wade or heat fan but you have to admit that he was better than Kobe (at the same point in time, not their careers) for a couple of years. Kobe is amazing in that he played so well this year at an advanced age while Wade’s peak was shorter lived.

  • Drig

    Shaq put up such numbers in the Finals. When he was up against other top tier bigs like DRob, Duncan or Webber (notice all of them in the West ), Kobe’s performances were atleast on par with Shaq’s, even better at times.

    Name me ONE instance when there have been Co-MVPs. Kareem and Magic should’ve shared atleast one if that was possible with the way they played. Try again.

  • Daniel Almeida

    Tim Duncan is a legend, the best pf in the game!

  • kobesucks

    kobe shooting 42% against the kings is on par with shaq?

    please

  • Drig

    Care to remind yourself of Shaq’s FG%? It was 53% . A significant dropoff from 58% he averaged in regular season. Kinda like Kobe’s.

    Plus, I kinda hope you realize that Shaq and Kobe play in different positions with Kobe playing farther away from the rim?

  • kobesucks

    doesn’t matter

    jordan consistently shot 50+%

    shaq was getting triple teamed half of the possessions and still would score or get a teammate involved…he made the right play

    kobe would try to shoot and miss half the time and when he made one everyone would s*** themselves

    anyone who knows basketball knows that kobe for his 1st 3 rings was nothing compared to shaq its the truth

  • kobesucks

    and kareem was never on par with magic during their run. he won 1 finals mvp and deserved it but the rest of the time magic was clearly the best player on the floor

    kareem was past the player he was in milwaukee on the lakers

  • Drig

    Kobe wasn’t on par with Shaq in the 1st title run. You’re fooling yourself if you think Kobe didn’t play at MVP level the next two title runs.

    Jordan played in the post. With a postup game later in his career or drove a lot more earlier in his career. With zone D, that’s a LOT tougher for Kobe to do. This aside from his ego though.

    So……Kobe never made the right play……Shaq never missed shots……You do realize that 2FTs for Shaq was a similar possession for LAL than a contested two for Kobe as far as points produced right?

    Also funny how Shaq and every single person who knew basketball was going ga-ga over Kobe’s perofrmances in the playoff runs till the NBA Finals in ’01 and ’02…….

  • Drig

    Actually no. He was on par with Magic for 2 of his titles. He was a 2nd star for 2 of the titles. The fifth I don’t remember too well tbh…….

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Please stop insinuating that Kobe was Shaq’s equal during any of their title runs. He wasn’t. It doesn’t help anyone to exaggerate about history. Shaq was clearly. Not even close. The best player on those Lakers teams. Kobe was still really really great, but he wasn’t that great. He didn’t become the Kobe Bryant that is a top 10 player ever until years later.

  • justin izda

    well, if Kobe has the consistency Duncan has had around him with Coach Pop, TP, and Manu every year, Kobe would definitely be more dominant over time. just imagine the number of changes of players to the Lakers during the years and with Shaq leaving the team. that was like a situation where Parker/Ginobili leaving the team.

  • justin izda

    well, if Kobe has the consistency Duncan has had around him with Coach Pop, TP, and Manu every year, Kobe would definitely be more dominant over time. just imagine the number of changes of players to the Lakers during the years and with Shaq leaving the team. that was like a situation where Parker/Ginobili leaving the team

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Kobe pushed players out, demanded a trade when what he wanted didn’t work, bashed his young player’s to fans and media, criticized teammates for their effort, etc. I’m not going to give him credit for being a bad teammate.

  • Drig

    I said his play was MVP caliber the next two seasons. Check his performances out.

    I said Kobe was playing at an MVP caliber. I never said Shaq wasn’t also doing the same thing.

    However, to say anyone could’ve done it and that Kobe was nothing compared to shaq is plain BS which is what truly irks me.

    Both needed each other. Both were MVP level players. Kinda the reason why both took votes away from each other in MVP votings.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    I didn’t say Kobe was nothing. He was great. But there were wings in the league just as good, or better than him every year they were winnings titles. Once Kobe was good enough to make it arguable, the team started to lose. Because he knew it, Shaq knew it, and neither of them could compromise about it. Seriously, I realize what Kobe’s stats were, and I know exactly how great he was. He wasn’t Shaq’s equal. Not even kind of.
    .
    You see….. Teams didn’t gameplan their defense around stopping Kobe, they game planned their defense around making Kobe beat them instead of Shaq.
    .
    That is the stone cold truth. And that should really be the first factor you think about before you just say “look at his stats”

  • kobesucks

    lol kobe was at an mvp level i admit that

    but was he as good as shaq ? thats laughable

    shaq was the best finals performer since MJ and will b forever

    kobe was fortunate enough to win those 1st 3 as a 2nd option

    if u don’t think he was a 2nd option ur fooling urself

  • Drig

    KG. Duncan. Webber. With Kobe.

    AI. Vince. T-Mac. With Shaq.

    Neither of them would’ve guaranteed a 3peat. Neither of them also would’ve finished without a title.

    There were others in the L who were just as good as Shaq was ( not post ASG ’01 though. Duncan did an admirable job of standing his ground when faced with Shaq ) over the Shaqobe era.

    Next, yes. Teams planned their defense around Shaq for the season. That’s irrefutable. Post ASG, Shaq was ridiculous in the regular season. Simply stupid.

    Except, the POs are entirely different. Teams make changes on the fly to account for things like Kobe going off.

    Player A : 31.6 ppg, 49% fg%, 7 rebs, 6 ast, 1.5 steals, 32% 3pt fg%, 82% ft%

    Player B : 29 ppg, 15 rebs, 2.5 ast, 54%.fg%, 2 blocks.

    Player A was Kobe till the NBA finals in ’01. Player B was Shaq till the NBA finals.

    Tell me with a straight face that Portland, Sacramento and San Antonio decided to not make changes and simply go with defending Shaq all along. Coaches went on record to say that they were simply unable to stop Kobe or Shaq.

    Show me ONE secondary player in NBA history who did that. Remember I’m talking only about the POs.

    Also, both benefited from this. Atleast 2 of Kobe’s assists always ended up as a gimme dunk for Shaq back in the day. Shaq helped keep defenders honest and let Kobe play one on one or one vs two.

    Listen, in all 3 title runs, Shaq was the undisputed best player in the nba finals and for large portions of the regular season ( except when he was out or Kobe was in his zone )

    In ’01 and arguably in ’02 playoffs ( and only the playoffs ), Kobe was the better player till the NBA Finals.

  • Drig

    So………Kobe was playing at an MVP level. Shaq was playing at an MVP level. The team was clicking.

    Yet Kobe should be thankful to Shaq that he has a ring? You make it sound like he rode Shaq’s dominance to the rings. Which is absolute bull and insulting when you consider Kobe’s production to get LAL through the West, where the NBA champs were decided in that era.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    “Except, the POs are entirely different. Teams make changes on the fly to account for things like Kobe going off.

    Player A : 31.6 ppg, 49% fg%, 7 rebs, 6 ast, 1.5 steals, 32% 3pt fg%, 82% ft%

    Player B : 29 ppg, 15 rebs, 2.5 ast, 54%.fg%, 2 blocks.

    Player A was Kobe till the NBA finals in ’01. Player B was Shaq till the NBA finals.

    Tell me with a straight face that Portland, Sacramento and San Antonio decided to not make changes and simply go with defending Shaq all along. Coaches went on record to say that they were simply unable to stop Kobe.”

    .

    So you see Kobe’s FG% jump. Shaq’s FG% drop.

    .

    And then, in the same argument, say this…

    “Tell me with a straight face that Portland, Sacramento and San Antonio decided to not make changes and simply go with defending Shaq all along. Coaches went on record to say that they were simply unable to stop Kobe.”

    .

    Did you think this out, even a little bit?

    .

    “Coaches went on record to say that they were simply unable to stop Kobe.”

    - yeah, because they had to guard Kobe one on one, because their defense was focused on Shaq.
    .
    LOL, come on man. You can’t see the obvious? One guys efficiency drops, another guys’ rises, but in your opinion, in the playoffs, teams stopped focusing the majority of their attention on Shaq?
    .
    You are saying Shaq did worse with LESS attention?
    .
    LOL, seriously, i’m sorry, but this is hilarious.

  • Drig

    I’m saying Shaq faced better defense at his position which enabled single coverage and more of a neutral defense in those playoff series. And Kobe balled outta his mind. Shaq had Duncan/DRob on him ( an example ). Kobe had Bowen on him. Kobe would have an easier time, relatively, to score over Bowen compared to Shaq and Ducan. The distance factor levels the playing field a bit though.

    Changes were made. Adjustments were done. You telling me teams wouldn’t change their strategies when one guy was being pretty much his usual game while the other was balling out?!?! I remember that Spurs series and Shaq faced soft doubles. Just like Kobe did.Teams make it a point to subdue the rest of the stars, primarily the 2nd players and let the 1st option get away with single coverage or soft doubles and win the game.

    Happens with OKC and Westbrook. Happens with Miami. Happens with every damn team. Now, when the 2nd player also looks good regardless of the defense you play on him, that’s when you as a coach say they’re unguardable. Plus I said unable to guard Kobe OR Shaq. As in adjustments were made real time in game to take into account who was heating up.

    Know when that happens? When he also becomes a primary player. Like Westbrook is now for OKC. Or TP is now for the Spurs.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    the only times teams shifted their focus away from Shaq, and onto Kobe was in 4th quarters. Specifically the second half of 4th quarters. And i feel like you are projecting the results of the late game situations onto the entirety of the playoffs.

    .

    Shaq faced full blown double teams by every team he faced for 10 years straight.

    .

    Watch this video, Kobe faces single coverage the entire game.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWPWvJ2wr44

    .

    and he scores 11 of his 28 in the 4th quarter. Pretty indicative of what i think you are projecting on the whole last 2 championship runs.

  • kobesucks

    not true

    the only lakers competition was portland in 00 when Shaq destroyed them and the kings in 02 when Shaq again won the series for LA along with tim donaghy in game 6

    LA swept portland, san antone, and sac in 01
    LA swept portland, crushed san antone in 02

    LA had more competition against indiana in 00 than against portland, san antonio, and phoenix from 01-02

  • kobesucks

    and he rode shaqs dominance its very clear

    a low 40% shooting SG is not dominant or helpful to the team unless its AI who was 5’11 and had a reason to have a lower FG% than the average 6’6 SG

  • kobesucks

    wanna know the difference?

    Shaq played like a legend

    kobe played like an mvp candidate

    ther u go

  • kobesucks

    wanna know players better than kobe? here are a few

    russell, mj, wilt, magic, kareem, bird, shaq, duncan, olajuwon

    and u can’t argue ANY OF THEM except duncan (even tho ur wrong) and olajuwon (kobe could be better because of longevity but nothing else about his game is on hakeems level)

    mvps + finals mvps mean more than scoring a lot of points and hitting regular season buzzer beaters my friend

  • kobesucks

    i give up

    personally i think duncan > kobe and shaq > kobe

    but ill give in and say that duncan = kobe

    but don’t sit here and tell me kobe was just as important as shaq

    u sub in the mvp AI or the best SG in the game in 02-03 and 04-05 in TMAC ther would’ve been a 3peat as well….also with VC who was just as good as kobe in 2001

  • Drig

    Actually, no. I wasn’t trying to project Q4s onto the games. Rather, I was trying to project the games vs Sactown and vs Spurs in general.

    In the vid, Shaq faced a double 4 times. The first was a 2-3 zone which resulted in Shaq getting an easy two after Kobe draws Shaq’s dfender towards himself.

    The second was a double from Bowen which Kobe made them pay. THe third was a stellar pass from Shaq to find Kobe opne for the three.

    The fourth instance didn’t have Kobe’s.man sag off of him.

    Post entry passes was a common feature of the Lakers O to start off teh offense. That did result in soft doubles at t imes. Whenever Kobe and Shaq waere isolated on the weak side, it was usually a help defender on the strong side who covered up the paint and sagged off another PF.

    You’ll also notice that Shaq faced more dobles when Duncan wasn’t on the floor/

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