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Saturday, August 31st, 2013 at 11:50 am  |  52 responses

Antawn Jamison Says Kobe Bryant and Dwight Howard Lacked Trust


Now that he’s an LA Clipper, former Laker Antawn Jamison can speak freely about the disaster that was the Kobe/Dwight duo. Jamison thinks Howard and Bryant, despite being great players, simply failed to develop the required trust to make their short-lived partnership work. Per ESPN: “I would never count Kobe Bryant out of anything,’ Jamison said Friday. ‘I’ve played with some special players. Gilbert Arenas when he was [in Washington D.C], at the top of his game, LeBron James, Shaquille O’Neal [in Cleveland]. I’ve played with a lot but never played with an individual player who had the type of mindset, the drive that he has. If [Bryant] says he’s going to win a sixth ring, believe me, he’s going to do everything possible to get that ring. Of course, on the outside looking in you could say, well, that might not happen this year or whatever with him coming off the injury and the Lakers trying to get things together. But I mean, that guy, he’s going to do everything possible to get that sixth ring.’ [...] What Jamison never figured out though, was why the relationship between Bryant and Howard never developed on the court. ‘It was difficult,’ he said. ‘I really believed before we got started that those two could co-exist. But it just didn’t work out that way. Both guys are unbelievable basketball players, the best we have in the game right now. But for whatever reason we just couldn’t get that relationship as far as them communicating and them trusting each other the way you needed them to trust each other in order for us to win a championship. It just didn’t happen that way.’”

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  • spit hot fiyah

    “don’t blame me”

  • Najee Fareed

    another Laker who bailed out…. we miss Jerry Buss.

  • Footwork

    Another NBA player who played both LeBron and Kobe and then let’s us know that Kobe is on a level today’s players can’t match. When are the stat idiots going to realize that the game of basketball is measured differently? Baseball geeks posing as If they ever laced’em up on the hardwood. You just got smacked again.

  • rande3p

    “there are lies, damn lies, and statistics” Stats don’t tell a story, they count pages

  • Footwork

    And then there are eyes. Eyes of former players who understand game. Keep reading your book newbie while us warriors keep showing our dedicated love for the game… With our eyes on the game and not stat sheets.

  • Footwork

    Or we’re you agreeing with me. I couldn’t make sense of the quote.

  • Footwork

    Typo

  • berkamore

    Gimme a break, I don’t need stats (which I love) to know that Kobe is a shell of his former self that shoots way to much and gets killed on defense these days.

    I am not even mentioning LeBron because Kobe is simply not in the same League these days.(hasn’t been to the Finals since 2010). KB is like Ali before he got beat up by Holmes. looks the same, talks a great game, does SOME of the same things.

    And you figure, nothing has changed, well, until he runs into sb he would have killed in his prime and gets his @ss handed to him. (Still, I hope he recovers and all that because everybody deserves to play out a career on their own terms.)

  • Evan Boland

    Ditto. QFT.

  • Evan Boland

    Lmao. You’re a fool. Shell? He had one of his best years last year.

  • rande3p

    agreeing with you hero lol it’s a famous sports quote talking about how stats just can’t compute what actually happens in a game

  • Feez_22

    Jamison just said kobe is on a different level mentally pretty much.

    A lot of players in the history of the nba had more preferable mentalities than lebron james. Especially old school players. However, Lebron right now is playing at a level kobe has never been on at both ends… you don’t need stats or advanced stats to see this.

    If you are a basketball purist and watch lebron play v. kobe (in their primes) it is clear who is the superior player. very clear in fact. It is lebron.

  • chyea

    LeBron will likely never attain the level of nuance in skill that Kobe has. However, Kobe has and will never have the type of impact that LeBron has on the game right now. I always felt the tragic thing about Kobe is that in spite of his overall skillset, which I believe to be the greatest in NBA history (even better than Jordan’s), there are some very fundamental things in the way he perceives the game that prevents him from being even greater.

  • GetReal

    I understand that stats are not everything…they are not. If they were, everyone would be saying Wilt or Big O was the best to ever lace em up. It is the mix of stat production (individual stats as well as team-oriented stats, both advanced and non) as well as individual accolades and to a smaller, if not smallest of the aforementioned criteria, team accomplishments i.e. rings, and, lastly, actually the smallest of the aforementioned criteria, subjective intangibles (which to some extent do define and craft a player). With that stated, LeBron is better than Kobe. See, stats are objective measurements that define a players overall production in helping his team win, the ultimate objective of basketball. Thus, a player who helps him team win and actually sees and leads his team to wins consistently regardless of the players on his team is deemed as a great basketball player.

    For instance, Kobe does have better post-moves than LeBron at this stage of LeBron’s career; that’s really inarguable. But, check LeBron’s production in the post, and if you find that it is off the charts as I recall seeing, then does it really matter who has better moves if LeBron produces more?

    LeBron does not have better shooting form than Kobe, but shoots better percentage even from jumpshots. So, does it matter that Kobe might be a better shooter in a vacuum, isolated gymnasium?

    Kobe has allowed ill-advised decision making to mask his supreme fundamentals and game over his career. But, decision-making is a part of the game and defines a basketball player.

    Really, the argument about Kobe being a better basketball player than LeBron based on looks is the same concept as GM’s overrating Euro players like Darko Milicic based on their fundamentals in the draft processes. How did that turn out? That’s why a majority of European players don’t make it in the league; it is because, even though the look great in practice/drills, they can’t produce in games.

    Additionally, people in favor of Kobe will say that LeBron is just an athletic freak with an unparalleled built, totally debasing and discrediting LeBron’s high (if not highest) basketball IQ in the game, continual improvement, versatility, and documented, famed hard work and dedication. This is 1) nitpicking 2) besides being nitpicky, so what? basketball players are blessed with being tall, but they must take care of their bodies. LeBron has taken care of his body by working out lifting (I doubt he does PED’s, but in the day and age of sports today, who knows unfortunately).

    I guarantee the same people who use this argument would not say the Andre Miller is a better basketball player than Shaq or even Kareem, for that matter.

  • Yep

    This is seriously and honestly one of the best if not best posts on slam I have ever seen. “Kobe has and will never have the type of impact LeBron has on the game right now” is more than true and can actually be validated right now. As far as the nuance in skill that Kobe has, that is debatable because LeBron is only 28 and has some years to grow.

    For example, it’s difficult to judge a more power post player in terms of fundamentals than a guard on the post because a guard has a sexier turnaround jumpshot or push shot/floater while a power player has a jump hook or push near the basket like a layup. Both use roughly the same footwork, but to right away say that the guard has a better skillset because he is shooting as opposed to the power player, is too quick of an assesment because IMO the spacing and ability to read and dodge the help defense in such a crammed space is truly a skill by the power post player. Essentially, the guard has 1 man to beat while the post player has a couple including his own teammate to watch out for occasionally.

    Nonetheless, I’m thrilled to see such a sensible, great post on slam, particularly, in reagards to Kobe. vs LeBron debate.

  • Jay Brodes

    i partly blame dantoni but dhoward really should have known what he was getting into…he played with mamba for 2 years for team usa. if he is that intense with coach k what did d12 expect with the chase of the ring? d12 is weak period!

  • Conor

    Bryant has the best footwork in the game (with the Gasol brothers and Duncan and Garnett). Power or finesse, he is Hakeem’s greatest pupil & he had a post game prior to those tutorials. People fall head-over-heels because James added a reliable turnaround hook/jumper eight seasons into his career.

  • Conor

    Just pointing it out: You don’t know more than contemporary peers, Dennis Rodman, Magic, Jordan, Bird, Kareem, and others.

  • berkamore

    Well, Kobe used to be able to play offense and defense at the same time. Maybe you should watch ENTIRE Lakers games (I do as I live in LA) and see that last season Bryant was clearly conserving energy on defense.

    What was one of the Lakers problem? No perimeter defense because Kobe and Nash couldn’t stop anybody (and Artest was aging), which is another reason Dwight was so frustrated (besides not seeing the ball).

    Guards would get into the paint AT WILL, (often Kobe’s guy) Dwight would rotate and somebody would just roll to the basket and score AND on the next possession, Kobe would jack up a three, you could see that it just drove Dwight CRAZY. (No wonder he wouldn’t re-sign for that kind of crap………..)

  • Busta213

    Well, he said “different mentality” Let’s not forget that LeBron led the league in fancy handshakes when in Cleveland, lol. He appears to interact and have fun with his teammates at times. That’s not something kobe is known for.

  • Interdico Scriptor

    Dude… speechless… read @nbk

  • Interdico Scriptor

    fool

  • corinaerskine23bv

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    i partly blame dantoni but dhoward really should have known what he was getting into…he played with mamba for 2 years for team usa. if he is that intense with coach k what did d12 expect with the chase of the ring? d12 is weak period!

  • Feez_22

    Conor… nice selective memory. Especially when it comes to these greats pointing out their opinions on kobe v. lebron.

    - Rodman said lebron would be an average player in his day. I find that absolutely hilarious. Rodman is clearly crazy… Do you as a basketball fan really think that this lebron james would be average in the 80s-90s Conor? I’d like to know.

    - Magic is the biggest flip flopper i have ever seen as a retired player sports analyst regarding the greats. One day he’d say that kobe was the driving force behind all 5 rings (which is absurd). The next day, he’d say lebron is better than jordan (which is also absurd). In one instance on nba countdown post lebron winning his 2nd championship, Magic disagreed and agreed with lebron one day being better than jordan AT THE SAME TIME!

    - MJ was a great player. However, he said kobe>lebron on rings debate. He said kobe has 5 and lebron has 1 (at the time). I’m sorry but if you use the rings debate, i can’t respect your opinion (no matter who you are). If mj came out and said he’d take kobe because he has more of an impact on the game or because kobe is ruthless then i would respect it. I wouldn’t necessarily agree with it but i would respect what he has to say. I can’t respect a ring counting type of response. ESP since people used that response towards mj unfairly when comparing a young mj to guys like bird and magic.

    - Bird… I once heard that bird would play with lebron to “have fun” and would play with kobe to win rings. I then heard bird say lebron has the ability to be better than “all of us”… If you want to go by his 1st comment, it was made b4 lebron won a ring. If you want to go by his 2nd comment, it was also made before lebron won a ring. i need a recent quote from him.

    - I don’t know what kareem said but if he did say kobe>lebron and had a good reason then i respect his opinion. Kareem at least doesn’t flop or 2 way a decision.

    So… what can you learn from my long post? a lot of these guys talking have used the ring counting decision, have said things that would make you think kobe>lebron and lebron>kobe at the same time and only a couple of them have had solidified opinions on the player (dr j and kareem for instance). If you base your opinion on what magic, mj or what rodman say in this day and age, you might as well watch espn.

  • 23

    Jamison played with a pre prime LeBron. And a post prime Kobe. Just saying.

  • bike

    It’s rather simple. They are polar opposites. Kobe is a ruthless, no nonsense competitor and Dwight likes to act silly. And they both wanted to be the centerpiece on one of the biggest stages in the league.

  • Ishmael Jenkins

    LeBron doesn’t need Bryant’s mentality to be successful. Durant doesn’t either. Neither does Dwight. There are different ways of getting it done. People really need to stop acting like if you don’t have Jordan or Kobe’s mindset, then you can’t win championships and you don’t want to win. What do people want? Less smiles from Dwight? More frowns and jaw juts like Kobe circa 2009? Because smiling worked pretty well for Magic Johnson. Shaq was and still is sillier than LeBron ever has been. That’s partly why he and Bryant clashed. He didn’t take the game as seriously as Bryant thought he should have. If James took Kobe’s mentality and decided to try to do too much by himself, he wouldn’t have the same impact on his teammates. That’s what separates them the most. James’ game makes it easy for his teammates to be successful around him. What LeBron really needed more than anything were teammates not named Boobie Gibson, Drew Gooden, Ilgauskas, Mo Williams, Antawn Jamison and Mo Williams.

    People need to tell the entire story. Kobe’s mentality is great and all, but Shaq and Gasol were his biggest assets. Same with Jordan…Jordan had a will to win before Scottie Pippen became a top 50 player…what he really needed was what Scottie turned into. And as for James’ game, he needed a better game in the post, sure, but if he never developed that and had Wade and Bosh in Cleveland…it would have been game over. He needed a better jumpshot, but he would have led Wade and Bosh to a championship in his Cleveland years with that streaky jumpshot that he used to change during games.

  • Mike From Spain
  • Clos1881

    Kobe plays a different role on team USA he’s not as aggressive and doesn’t look for his shot as much.

  • pposse

    on both ends?! pfft thats absurd. Lebron’s defense is alright.

    And what’s with this “pretty much” when talking about mentalities? When you are gifted and can play at such a high level as all nba players, your mentality is what separates you from the rest of the pack. Go read a book, MJ will tell you the game is 90% mental when you play at the highest level. Your type will never understand, what Footwork orignaly posted…NEVER, “pretty much” because of your “mentality”.

    Both Kobe and Bron in their primes are beasts but i’ll tell you this much, Kobe is a gunner he won’t stop shooting, Lebron has turned into a shell of himself on numerous occasions when people hit him with big baskets especially at the end of games; yes he done stuff to correct that but atleast you know with Kobe that he won’t stop gunning. Since you want to entertain something that is never going to happen, then atleast mention the fact that Kobe in his prime would put more pressure on Lebron in his prime to perform than any other ball player in the past 15 years, that’s being a purist and objective. To say ‘he is in fact, far superior’ is not being truthful to yourself more than anything else.

  • pposse

    Kobe definately played with some supreme talent, but seriously Lebron does too. When was Kobes best season? When he played with scrubs. When was Lebron’s best season? When he played with 4 hall of famers. Kobe, when playing with supreme talent was told to defer to his teammates cause they were tall. Lebron when playing with supreme talent was told to take over.

    As much talent as Kobe has played with (not withstanding Shaq) Lebron has played with a lot better players of whom catered more to his strengths and the way the league wants the game to be played nowadays. D Rose and KD would be almost just as ridiculous as Bron with the same supporting cast (maybe slightly less effective because of Lebron’s natural height/ body).

  • pposse

    Lebron may not have needed Kobe’s mentality to win rings, but he sure did need an adjustment after that loss in 2011. You watch basketball, you can tell Lebron approached the game a lot differently in 2012 from all the years prior. Reading books, turning off his twitter for the playoffs, no more biting his nails. And if you really want to look into it, you would hear rumors about how Lebron sought out professional help a la a sports psychologist to help harness all his energy into the game. Kudos to Bron for finding help. But really what I am saying is reiterated by what Antawn Jamison says in this article; a lot of these guys now do not possess the mental makeup or are seeking to find it.

    the way he WAS is not the way he IS (currently).

    I just do not understand why you dare bring MJ into any of this comparison. Scottie developed under the tutelage of MJ, Wade and Bosh developed by their lonesome selves. Bron teamed up with guys and shrunk the competiton. Three playoff teams turned into 1 super team. Did Cleveland or Toronto even sniff the playoffs the past 3 years? All three of these situations have no similar comparison yet you try to make one. This is what stans do.

  • Ishmael Jenkins

    LeBron’s mentality changed but he still smiles and enjoys himself. He dances a little during timeouts. He has his special handshakes with teammates. So he’s still the same dude, just more mature. So his mentality isn’t more like Kobe/Jordan. It’s just more serious. He’s still himself.

    Scottie’s biggest motivation was himself…not Jordan. You won’t convince anyone that Jordan tutored Scottie as if he was some kind of child because it’s not true. He helped, sure. But Scottie wasn’t Michael’s student. You, as usual, are giving Jordan too much credit. He’s a man. He doesn’t need to be worshiped. And Wade and Bosh didn’t just develop themselves. They were coached too. Just like Jordan was coached by Phil Jackson. Wade had Pat Riley and Spoelstra who worked with him with his jumpshot quite a bit. Bosh, if anyone, developed himself more because he didn’t have a good/great coach until he got to Miami.

    I state facts and give perspective. That’s not being a stan. Just because your precious Jordan/Chicago got mentioned, you’re here whining and defending them like you’re on the payroll. But that’s what Jordan/Chicago fanatics do. That’s what you are. Same old thing from you all the time.

  • Ishmael Jenkins

    And I didn’t even say anything negative about Jordan lol. That’s what’s hilarious. You’re so quick to try to speak for Chicago as if it’s your job that you didn’t even read what I said. And if you did, then you need to learn how to comprehend what you read. I simply said that Jordan’s biggest asset was Scottie Pippen because he had a will to win before Scottie became great. He obviously got better, but without Scottie, he would have just been the best player in the league on a team that couldn’t win it all just like LeBron was in Cleveland. Jordan was great before Scottie became great just like LeBron was before he played with Wade/Bosh. My biggest point is that who guys play with matters quite a lot. Exactly what is wrong with that? Show how it’s not true instead of talking about what I “dared” to do.

  • pposse

    “lebrons mentality changed but he stil smiles” – that completely contradicts everything you just said. He changed cause he got professional help, believe it bruh, thats just the simple facts. The stuff he does now to calm his nerves like taking deep breaths are contrived notions, stuff he learned from someone else. So yeah when people critisized his mental approach to the game in cleveland they were right to do so.

    And none of this has to do with MJ or Shaq in general. Your obviously not smart enough at whatever age you are bc you don’t have the mental capacity it seems Offthewall, but just by putting names towards other names, you by default are comparing players.

  • pposse

    Pippen is no where near the level of a player as Wade and Bosh. You dont even get it. You saying Pippen is comparable to Wade AND Bosh at the same damn time is taking away from the 6 titles the bulls won. The Bulls had no where near the same level of talent as Miami, but yet you try and do whatever you can to put Lebron in that category with the Jordan led Bulls. Thats how your statements get perceived, and yes the stans are the ones that listen to that perspective. I did read what you said, and its still stupidity.

    “without scottie he would have just been best player bla bla” how do you know that? you dont. So why say that even? Again cause it fits your comparison of Lebron being the modern day MJ. Thats just the truth behind it bruh.

    And now since you know what im saying is logical, you will respond about how im a bulls fanatic bla bla bc your mentally incapable of accepting this known fact.

  • Feez_22

    I don’t even know why you continue to respond to me with all of this heresay talk. Why not come to me with facts? I mean… 18 people already agreed with me including several that i respect here yet you need a refresher and just are hellbent on proving my points wrong with nothing to back it up.

    #1 – Kobe won’t stop gunning? in his prime? Ok.

    2006 nba playoffs game 6 – kobe took 35 shots in a team loss (lost by 8) but he was pretty good. 20/35 50 points.

    game 7 – kobe = 8/16 in a team loss (lost by 31).

    - Kobe didn’t take his 35 shots game 7 to prove a POINT that he had no teammates. hey bud… he STOPPED GUNNING here and it was in his damn prime as well. Know your nba history before you step.

    2 – lebron is a superior player in his prime now than kobe was in his prime. That is backed up by what i am seeing and what the stats say. You are talking this “mentality” mumbo jumbo.

    Look… i already said that many players including old school players had more preferrable mentalities than lebron. However, i SPECIFICALLY said that lebron prime for prime is superior to kobe.

    3. If you knew anything about the history of the game, you would know that more times than not it is SKILLSET+MENTALITY that differentiates players. Not mentality alone. You need to have the skillset first.

    Lebron’s mentality is a team first one. He likes to get his teammates involved, almost to a fault sometimes. He has improved into a player that can have a killer 1 man mentality which he has displayed. However, none of this would matter if he didn’t have the skillset he has now. He is one of the best passers in the league, one of the best all around defenders in the league, an elite rebounder at his position, the most efficient scorer in the nba, shoots 40% from 3, 45% from 16-22 feet and on top of all of that is good enough to be a team’s best facilitator and defensive anchor all at the same time. His skillset in terms of what he can do on the court and the level at which he does it at is higher than kobe’s. I’d love for you to dispute this because it would just show me you really know nothing about this topic.

    Lebron’s defense is “alright”? I’m sorry but kobe has NEVER played at the level lebron is at defensively ever. Kobe’s best defensive yr was 99-00 when shaq coincidentally had his best defensive year as well and even then lebron’s defense is superior. You can def say that lebron’s defense wasn’t as great this year and even then kobe hasn’t ever played this well defensively. in 2011-2012, lebron was out of his mind defensively.

    He did all that and had the best perimeter season last year that anyone has had since michael jordan’s 32-8-8 season. 2 mvp’s in his prime already in counting.

    Lebron prime > kobe prime. i didn’t say “far superior”. i said superior. You are not being truthful to yourself at all here. Noting i haven’t seen from you on these boards before.

    All you do is go by narratives. MJ said this, magic said that. well guess what.. that tells me you don’t think for yourself. This is why you are continuously owned on these boards and will continue to be.

  • pposse

    just pointing out the fact that you glossed over the “mentality” aspect from your first point. Now that you expand it you still do it with qualifiers.

    No need to try and get personal, thats a reflection on you not me. Nice essay by the way. The way your post went was comparing kobe vs. lebron not kobe prime vs. lebron prime. Basically you said that kobe would get pee’d on in his prime VS lebron (notice the emphasis on VS)? Lebron might be better, but don’t loosely use the word superior..you said “very clear” very equivalent to “far superior” – stop tryin to cover your bases, might as well shoulda edited your comment then. You know and I know what you said and meant.

    Who cares when i started to post on here, do i have to post on here to show the world my bball opinions? Mentality is not mumbo jumbo..Lebron never faced a player with Kobe’s mentality in his prime, and pressure makes or breaks diamonds fool. Lebron clearly avoided that make or break by surrounding himself with superior talent, that is very clear..try and deny it all you want, those are facts.

  • pposse

    and lebron was clearly a defensive beast in the finals in 11-12 when KD was dropping 30 and 8 on the regular, just stop…his defense is alright…if he had some nasty defense he would have atleast dropped another superstars stats not be the guy guarding him while his stats elevated. You are a stan and that is the narrative on slam period. Dont get it misconstrued youngin.

  • pposse

    and one more thing, kobe doesnt have a skill set? that’s horrible bro..once you respond i’ll put the nail in the coffin, dont ever talk about the upvotes you got to me again either, clearly shows a “narrative” attitude.

  • Feez_22

    Point out the point where i said kobe didn’t have a skillset. Go ahead and point it out.

    When you learn how to read, come back at me. Seriously… Use your brain. I said lebron’s skillset is superior to kobe’s. I didn’t say kobe doesn’t have one on here. seriously… Why are you always hellbent on posting responses to me when you don’t know what you are talking about? I don’t get it.

  • Feez_22

    OH… so defense for 5 playoff games = defense for the whole year huh… why must you make yourself look stupid all of the time? Show me something long ranging and TANGIBLE that says lebron’s 2011-2012 defense wasn’t stellar. the fact is you can’t.

  • Feez_22

    1. How did i gloss anything over? I said a lot of players have more preferable mentalities all time including stars than lebron. That’s glossing it over? Why do you not comprehend what i typed yet others do? i don’t get it…

    2. Personal? In your first reply to me, you said “Go read a book, MJ will tell you the game is 90% mental when you play at the highest level. Your type will never understand, what Footwork orignaly posted”. YOUR TYPE will never understand… isn’t that a personal shot? Yes or no? YET when i get personal you want to whine about it. Yup… same ole pposse being ignorant to what he and others type.

    3. “The way your post went was comparing kobe vs. lebron not kobe prime vs. lebron prime.” ARE YOU SERIOUS? OMG… WHY CAN YOU NOT READ? This is what i specifically wrote in my first post: “If you are a basketball purist and watch lebron play v. kobe (in their primes) it is clear who is the superior player. very clear in fact. It is lebron.”… now tell me… WHAT PART OF (IN THEIR PRIMES) DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? again… why can you not comprehend my comments?

    4. I can’t use the word “superior” now?

    Definition: A person or thing superior to another in rank, status, or quality, esp. a colleague in a higher position.

    So basically, i can’t use the word “superior” which clearly means “better” in the context i used it in? holy. so many rules from the ppoose. No… you don’t know what i meant clearly from my comment which is why you are the only one confused with your responses.

    5. IDC when you started posting here. All i am saying that your posts are short sighted and are filled with narratives, heresay and talk with no substance. You isolate situations to fit your point. You point out singular games to illustrate your point. You use a 5 game series to determine the level of play of a player for a whole season + playoffs with nothing else to back up your claims. That is what you do.

    Oh Wow… now you are using the word superior… LOL. Funny thing is you are using it WRONG. If lebron had joined superior talent, it would mean the talent is BETTER THAN HIM. you realize that right? He joined HOF talent.

    When i use the word superior correctly (in comparing prime kobe to prime lebron) you cry. When you use it incorrectly comparing lebron to his new teammates, it’s a fact? Holy… You are oblivious to reason and fact. You haven’t stated a single fact yet. damn shame.

  • pposse

    1. You could have expanded more on that point.. like explain the flaky mentality.
    2. I cant take fans like you seriously. Where did i hear that from? It must be a quote from somewhere…if you gon bark then we gotta bite.
    3. that thought is subjective and you can never really back up any claim on that. they never played each other in their primes.
    4. how can you define the word ‘superior’ with the word ‘superior’? stop using google bruh or was that a thesaurus you used or were you trying to use again in a faulty sentence?!
    5. you mean the 5 most important games? and what narratives do you speak of..the one that says …what exactly?
    6. Wade plus Bosh equals anything better than Bean ever played with…BOOM..shaq aint wade and bosh son never that..you undermine wade 3rd year champion mvp finals, all star first ballot hall of famer alongside yet another first ballot hofer

  • pposse

    does kobe have a better mentality towards the game? does kobe have a “superior” skill set? I told you 90 10 so does Lebron have that high of an edge on skill set, and no edge at all on mentality? Is that what your telling me..and I’m supposed to believe that Lebron is “clearly the superior player”? Do you understand a little bit now? Y’all are stanning on Lebron. Let the man atleast get three rings in a row before yall start this. Its been like this after 1 ring..

  • Feez_22

    # 1. expanded more on that point? What? I said a lot of players have more preferable mentalities than lebron, esp old school players. what… you want me to name them? Most people got what i was saying and filled in the blanks. You on the other hand…

    #2 . If you gon bark then we gon bite? What? …
    Just realize you started the personal attacks in your first reply so don’t cry when icontinue it.

    #3. How is it subjective? How?
    There is solid EVIDENCE as in statistical and if you don’t care for that, accomplishment EVIDENCE that says lebron’s prime>kobe’s prime already.

    If that is the case, no one can be compared in the history of the game. If it is subjective than mj isn’t the greatest ever then. right? mj didn’t face russell in his prime so i guess we can’t compare mj and bill russell’s prime. right?

    Do you see the FLAW in your logic yet or not?

    4. I defined the word “superior” using it’s legitimate DEFINITION… now i should stop using a dictionary to define english words? LOL OK.

    5. If we were going to define players by just the nba finals, 2011-2012 finals lebron > ANY finals from kobe. you realize that right? OK then.

    6. Shaq in his prime was the most DOMINANT player in the game. The diff between lebron and kobe’s teams is that kobe was the complimentary clear #2. lebron was the primary CLEAR #1.

    Whenever people compare, they always say the 2012-2013 or 2011-2012 heat would get destroyed by the early 2000s lakers. why? bc NO ONE can stop prime shaq. no one in the history of the game could stop him. he was an animal. Prime shaq was the grandest weapon and if lebron was able to play with prime shaq instead of wade/bosh, 2011 lebron would have won a championship (even playing like crap like he did in that finals). How do i know this? Shaq went out and led his team to multiple chips with kobe playing like total dirt in the finals (go ahead and re-check… ya you can see the FACT in this).

    I won’t downplay lebron’s teammates because the heat in fact have built a better team around lebron than the lakers did around shaq. However, kobe played with the what was at the time most dominant player in the nba. Lebron plays with 2 gr8 players but wade is past his prime now. bosh is still great. however, heat wade when lebron got there was NOT 3rd yr wade. kobe got to play with 1x mvp 3x fmvp shaq who btw won all those accolades with kobe THERE. YOU know who is winning those acccolades in miami since 2010? Lebron.

    BTW, magic/larry/kareem/russell all played on the best teams in the history of the game and are still by many ranked top 5 of all time. The greatness of your teammates doesn’t diminish your ranking as long as you were a great yourself. if it does, none of the players listed above including kobe who played with such a sheer dominant force should be ranked top 10. think about it.

    - Now… I think responding to your quotes needs me to establish a rule. I will only respond to you when your post makes any sense to what i initially wrote. I am tired of responding to nonsense and then going back and forth on heresay OK? Have a good day.

  • Feez_22

    -_-

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    Now you just ring counted. what the hell does ring counting have to do with skillset? What does ring counting have to do with anything in terms of what i said? Lebron’s skillset has been superior to kobe’s for a LONG time before he won a ring. However, in his prime it has grown so much (since he can now shoot from all ranges) that it is undeniable he is the clear superior prime player than kobe bryant.

    Again… you can go by scowl. i will go by production. You can go by what mj said. i can go by what I SEE. you can go by these random percentages that don’t mean squat because they cannot be proven and i will go by TANGIBLE ON COURT RESULTS.

    but ya… as i said in my other post, i will only respond when your posts make any sense to what i initially wrote. There is no more need for me to waste my time going back and forth with you unless it is productive to correcting a flawed point i made… Since all you have done is bring legend talk and folklore into this convo with no facts, it is a waste of time

    If i reply to you in the future, your comment will have actually made sense to what i wrote so… peace

  • pposse

    1. it comes off like your downplaying the mentality
    2. “This is why i can’t take basketball fans like yourself seriously” – since you iike to take all day and have a lot to say how about you check facts and find out when who said that to who ? go ahead ill wait dummy.

    3. You can’t compare era’s everyone on here agrees with that..must be narrative. Same thing with MJ being the greatest..thats the narrative right? If you want my opinon, my opinion is that MJ is the greatest. I can give you stats, and other reasons as to why, but i cannot state as FACT that he is the greatest. So like i said since they never went at each other in their primes, its all subjective, you can give stats, but they can only predict situations, not factually state that they would happen.
    4. You can’t use a word to define a word! you must 18 tops.
    5. kobe wasn’t in his prime when he played with Shaq in his prime. Both didn’t want to play with each other when they were in their primes, maybe they got bored of winning so they increased competition, either way it was healthy for the league..whats happening in Miami is not healthy for the league. Kareem wasn’t really in his prime when he played with Magic, but Lebron is playing with three (one being an all time great in Wade) in their primes. And Wade says he still has it soo..i would hold off on your opinion of him.

  • Feez_22

    Alright. Since these comments actually make sense, i can respond.

    1. I would never downplay mentalities. I did say skillset however is more important than mentality. It is more likely that a player with a great skillset and a not so great mentality will be successful in terms of HOF success than vice versa. Dennis rodman had an elite mentality in my opinion which shaped his skillset but he is a rare exception who was able to have a grand career.

    Lebron for instance had a team first mentality. That mentality isn’t a bad thing because that combined with his skillset led to him maxing out lesser teammates and also led to him being in a finals his team had no business in being at (2007). However, that same mentality just wrecked the heat’s chances of winning in 2011. What did he do? he started to develop this hunger and perfection sort of mentality. He grew up and now, 2 chips/2 mvp’s later, he is showing his mentality has expanded. He can still be the team 1st guy but he can also be the guy to nail the coffin. He has also expanded his skillset as i showed in my prev comments.

    2. I responded to conor because HE pointed out that the legends said that stuff. What i like to do is point out what legends say and at what time they say it so i can bring some CONTEXT to a discussion. It is something i picked up in the mean streets of college. You must always back up your points with EVIDENCE.

    3. If you can’t compare era’s, there CANNOT be a definitive best player ever.

    The real fact of the matter is that if you say mj is the best,. you are comparing era’s. Period. Thus, you just contradicted yourself.

    When i compare a player prime for prime, i do not compare what they would do to each other. that would be stupid. HEAD 2 HEAD is not an indicator of who is superior. if that was the case, carmelo anthony>lebron james. When i compare prime for prime i compare a certain player’s dominance, skillset, abilities and then i bring stats into it to see how great that individual was against the field. When i did that with kobe v lebron it was clear to me that lebron has had the superior prime. Now, you can say the “field” is diminished now but i will point out to you that lebron’s position alone is more stacked right now than kobe’s was in his prime.

    4. I didn’t use a “word” to define a word. I posted the entire definition and then summarized the definition. Did they not teach you that could be done in school?

    5. The only wade that looked like prime wade was 2010-2011 wade. If you really think that 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 wade are prime wade, you are freaking kidding yourself. This wade is slower, can’t get to the basket on a consistent basis and on top of everything is injured for long stretches of the reg season & playoffs. I do like that wade was efficient in the reg season last yr though. That was great.

    BTW i in no way would negligently downplay wade’s abilities for the benefit of what lebron is as a player. Wade is just not the player he was when he was in his prime. Wade can say what he wants but i saw his prime and what he is doing right now isn’t it. He can have stretches displaying he has that ability or a game here and there but he cannot sustain that. This wade is broken down and has been for 2 years now but if tim grover can fix him and get back to prime performance, that would be nuts (for the heat team and nba fans).

    The only player other than lebron in the big 3 that is in his prime is chris bosh. Bosh just isn’t being used correctly.

    UMM… a little refresher. Kobe did not want to play with shaq bc he didn’t want to be his “sidekick” anymore. Shaq demanded a trade because phil wasn’t coming back as well. Since i already just displayed that wade w/ lebron isn’t in his prime, kobe has at least played with a HOF in their prime (in pau gasol). Magic had kareem. Kareem may not have been in his “prime” but james worthy was (who is also a hall of famer).

    BTW 3rd yr wade isn’t prime wade. i never said he was anywhere here. smh. MVP CALIBER WADE is prime wade (u know.. the 08-09 version and 09-10 version). lebron got 1 yr playing with prime wade. that’s it. 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 wade are not prime wade.

  • lebroo

    If you’re going to talk about skill then you could also talk about a guy like Steph Curry who despite his small size and lack of elite athleticism can shoot from everywhere on the floor and make it, or a guy like Earl Boykins or Muggsy Bogues who had crazy skill to make it in this league despite being a foot shorter than even shooting guards. Kobe is skilled yes but not more so than Jordan unless you want to start comparing guys like those.

  • lebroo

    Stat idiots huh? Statistics ACTUALLY WORK. Mathematics is not a science of opinion. You sound like one of those flat Earth morons.

  • lebroo

    lebron has never been silly, just different personality, dwight and shaq are actually silly.

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