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Monday, September 30th, 2013 at 3:20 pm  |  174 responses

LeBron James Sees the Light Toward Becoming the Best Ever


The aim for LeBron James has always been to become the best player to ever hoop in the NBA. LBJ knows he still has a long way to go, but says he can see the proverbial light when it comes to being the G.O.A.T.

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  • LakeShow

    Nope.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    He’s all ready best to ever play the game talent wise. I’d take him over MJ for a franchise any day.

    Lebron makes players better regardless of what team he is on.

  • Melvin flynt

    I see the light lbj ,haters gonna hate ! Lol ..

  • RKJ92

    LakeShow.

  • bashmo

    I wouldnt have thought this as soon as the heat lost to Dallas in 2011, but at the ripe age of 28 turning 29 come December and with 4 MVPs, 2 Finals MVPs and 2 championships under his belt…I can certainly see the light too. With his skillset and how he impacts the game, if Lebron can continue playing at a high level…he can maybe be in the GOAT conversation in 4-5 years from now. You never know. He’s already in a league of his own as a player. Time for him to ramp up the next level of greatness .

  • pposse

    and MJ didn’t? And Wade is looking sooo much better now with Lebron, Bosh as well lol.

  • LakeShow

    Yeah, pretty much my exact face…

  • Junior Taylor

    In my opinion, LeBron has to win 1 more MVP and at least 2 more championships (winning Finals MVP while at it) to be considered in KAJ/MJ’s (the 2 true GOATs) class.

  • Drig

    LOL!!!!

  • Bubbles

    Unlikely. Jordan has several of the best stat lines of the modern era in both the regular season and finals. Lebron has not marched those stat lines, nor will he because his team is no longer one dimensional and completely dependent on him. Being undefeated in the finals also helps push Jordans legacy as the goat. Jordan’s cultural impact was also much greater and helped bring the game to an international audience. Realistically, there is simply too much going against Lebron for him to be Goat.

  • Shooting Guard

    Age is certanly on his side

  • Dfrance

    The Decision and the flop in the Finals against Dallas are two blemishes LBJ will never be able to shake, no matter how sucessful he is going forward.

    I personally don’t necessarily think those things should exclude him from the GOAT conversation, but the general public feels otherwise.

  • Busta213

    The thing is, it will become a generational thing. If he wins a couple more rings, kids who dont really remember MJ’s play (nevermind Kareem, Magic etc). will be all to happy to crown the guy they actually have seen play as the goat.
    Even though Bron doesnt score like MJ, his stat lines are usually impressive in their versatility, so that wont necessarily hold him back in their minds.

  • Drig

    Magic???? Thought he was a good bet for that title as well…..

  • Drig

    I personally think that LBJ bouncing back from those defeats and achieving the same number of titles, MVPs etc. as Jordan would make him more impressive than Jordan.

  • Busta213

    How do you quantify “best ever talent”?

  • Dfrance

    You are definitely in the minority my friend, but I get what you’re saying. Jordans pristine 6-0 Finals record, complete with 0 game 7s all but makes him untouchable.

  • Evan Boland

    Cosign.

  • Dfrance

    I think Jordan transcends the generational thing. I’m pretty sure you can find more teenagers that maybe saw Wash Wiz MJ play, that still will argue that Jordan is better than LeBron based mostly off of hearsay.

  • Busta213

    Sure, based on what their dads and brothers etc told them. But then kids get bored of hearing old people say “the game was better in my day” and eventually prefer to believe their own eyes.
    Remember, once Bill R was the standard for greatness. Jordan didnt have to surpass his ring total to take the mantle…and Bill didnt just fall to no. 2. As time went by, more recent accomplishments just became more appealing.

  • bike

    It’s safe to say he is on track to be the greatest SF of all time. The GOAT title can always be argued because of the discrepancy between positions. If you line him up against Jordan, he’s pretty even statistically and accomplishment but he lags behind Jordan in the WOW factor and insane competitiveness.

  • bball knowledge
  • Melvin flynt

    Lebron is LJ jordan is MJ– lebron hit his bumbs on the early stages of his career, so did MJ,I understand never lost a finals an is 6-0 he’s my favourite player ever etc.., but the light is on for lbj to catch MJ an maybe pass him.. 2 different players playing two different generations.., Lets see how it plays out..

  • robb

    I agree. Lebron can become (or maybe he already is) the most complete basketball player ever. But the GOAT? I don’t think so.

  • TheRealness

    Naaww….

  • Slick Ric

    I still need to see greatness in the finals, He’s had four finals appearances which proves he’s top ten in my mind, but to be the unquestioned best player in the league and since Jordan(From some people perspective) and perform below average or just above it by those standards are unacceptable for the G.O.A.T.

  • 23

    I never understand that argument. By that logic if mj stayed 1 more season and lost in the finals he wouldn’t be as great? if LeBron played bad vs Chicago in 2011 and lost the series he would have a better legacy? I just don’t understand it at all .

  • 23

    Are you seriously blaming LeBron for Wades injuries and Bosh’s lack of aggression/interest? Wow.

  • Feez_22

    IMO, lebron won’t surpass mj. It’s like peyton manning v joe montana. He has too much blemishes on his resume to overcome to get to that GOAT status even if his play is at an all time level.

    At the end of the day, can lebron reach the level of play greats like mj, kareem, magic and bird have played at? I think so. In fact, lebron’s peak so far looks better than bird’s and magic’s in terms of what he can do on the court, efficiency, etc. I think lebron can surpass magic/bird to be honest. I know his aim is at the GOAT but magic/bird are the guys he is on the path of surpassing next. You can add a guy like Hakeem to that as well. Hakeem was amazing but i do think lebron can pass him when his career is up.

    Can lebron surpass mj/kareem? It’s subjective but just look at my first statement. That’s how the majority feel on this situation. He might be able to reach that class and may pass kareem (which will be VERY HARD) but i don’t think he can pass mj.

  • pposse

    Its debatable he makes superstar cali er players better which by the way the heat are littered with. In fact many has argued that lebron playing next to superstar ttalent heightened his game. For the pastthree yrs was wade or bosh the caliber of ball player they were pre bron? Believe in whatever hyperbole you want but lebron didnt shoot 60% from the field whenhe was on the cavs

  • King David

    have to admire his confidence

  • King David

    u forgot him quitting in game 5 of the 2010 semis, that was EPIC
    also Ray Allen saving him

  • pposse

    In 2011 lebron was in the meat of his career. In1999 jordan would have been at the tail end of his

  • Saleem Rainman

    yeah no. Just as annoying as all those Kobe junkies are the LeBron riders that claim he’s gonna be the GOAT.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    huh? nobody thinks he actually will be the GOAT. he doesn’t even think that. he just has a chance. which he very clearly does.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    going to need to get to 5 titles to join that discussion. 4 won’t cut it. he’ll be in the Larry Bird conversation until he eclipses 5.

  • Saleem Rainman

    I dont see it. The 2011 Finals, the Decision(overall that horrible 2011 year) his performances in the playoffs against the Celtics his last 2 years as a Cav*, are all too big of failures imo for him to truly be considered the Greatest ever.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    that’s because you didn’t watch basketball from 1986-1990

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    LeBron losing in the finals is irrelevant in the long run. Just like Jordan’s repeatedly losing in the conference finals is irrelevant.

  • Saleem Rainman

    no, i didnt. I wasnt even born infact lol. But i obviously know about his well documented troubles with the pistons

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Well, the narrative wasn’t about whether being the GOAT was even possible, it was about whether or not he even helped the Bulls enough to ever win a single championship at any point in his career…..

  • Junior Taylor

    I think he passes Bird if he wins 3 titles. I already have him right behind Bird in terms of greatest SF.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Idk maybe you are right, I think people like holding onto the past a little to much, especially with Jordan essentially winning 6 straight

  • MUBWAR

    I already have him better than bird. 4 mvp’s (1 more than bird) 2 finals mvp (tie) 2 Olympic golds. lbj is also a much better defender

  • cbranson05

    but 20 years from now the guy all the kids are watching will be called the greatest ever. its like that in sport/music and any form of entertainment. its more of a generational thing. who’s the best of your generation. i like how jordan always said he’s not the greatest because he never played against greats from other eras. to quote nas “who’s the best? pac nas or big, aint no best” … makes for cool barbershop talk tho

  • burnt_chicken

    I do.
    In my life, I never imagined a player this complete.
    First guy I take for my all-time, all-universe team?
    the Kang. Hands down.

    And Jordan 6-0 in Finals? Try Russell if that’s the hook you hang the crown on.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    It’s difficult to quantify alone. I mean contextualizing and also looking at qualitative information helps. But it’s really difficult to develop a standard. I don’t think certain players can cross generations. Bill Russell is a prime example. I don’t think he would have done well during the Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson Era.

    Stats alone one would say that Wilt Chamberalin is the greatest of all time. PER is foolish because it’s impossible to contextualize.

    If I had to develop a franchise starting with either MJ or Lebron – I’ll go Lebron every time. His skills and his physical abilities are too strong.

    Jordan had such a great supporting cast, people neglect that fact. Do you think Jordan could have elevated the Cavs to a championship (cavs that lebron played on with a 36 yo shaq, old Atwan Jamision, and Mo Williams as your co-man) –> No..

    But if I had to choose any player to build a franchise around – It’s SHAQ. SHAQ on the Lakers I don’t think hakeem could have worked as much as the shaq on the magic because of the increase in strenght.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    i agree. Psychologically he had to be way more mentally tough than Jordan has ever had to in his career.

    I don’t think Wade really has helped Lebron as many people think. Magic, MJ, and Larry BIrd’s had great supporting cast. Amongst those 4 Lebron, Magic, MJ, Larry Bird – Lebron has the weakest supporting cast.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    Imagine the damage would have done if he was running with that celtics team bird had.

    Lebron is the greatest talent to ever play the game.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    i mean 23 proves my point. Even tho wade and bosh have played less than superstar quality lebron’s improvement has hidden the flaws of the heat

    hopefully beasley and oden will reach their potential under lebron’s tutelage

  • Dfrance

    Its irrelevant to people like us who look at the bigger picture of course. But to the average fan, these are the arguments they hand their hat on. There are more average/casual fans, than obsessed stat nerds like us here at Slam. lol

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    How does the Decision affect his basketball performance. Did he do anything that was against NBA rules when he signed with the Heat?

    Also, Lebron has the weakest supporting cast amongst the top 5 players of all time

    MJ, Magic, Larry, Kareem, Lebron

  • Dfrance

    I don’t get it either. I’m strictly speaking from a casual fan perspective, I know those loses LeBron had, or the unbeaten Finals record MJ has don’t speak to the entire picture.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    Here’s a simple question:

    Who would you draft

    Michael or Lebron and you are the cavaliers?

    if michael had a supporting cast that lebron had i don’t think michael would have ever gotten to lebron success because lebron’s vision is too much

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Yeah but in 20 years how many people going to still be talking about when he lost if all they’ve seen recently is him win? The narrative around Jordan was largely the same, his failures were too glaring….until they weren’t

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    i dont think ppl know jordans career they just like the appeal of his shoes

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    most ppl who say jordan is the greatest hardly know his career. They buy the shoes and watch the dvd highlights.

    I’d take shaq over lebron and jordan to build a franchise

    but lebron over jordan to build a franchise

    if the pistons had draft melo… I think melo would have won a couple of rings… that’s the real question

    melo on the pistons would have changed everything of the league like a butterfly effect

  • Dfrance

    Good point, and I hope you’re right. I really think people should appreciate LeBron and where he’s at, considering the lofty expectations heaped upon him since he was 15/16 years old. Its pretty amazing.

    But if they’re still retroing Jordans in 20 yrs… lol

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    how many times paxson, kerr bail out jordan.

    Ron Harper Lebron, Pippen, Rodman, Longley = 78-4

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Nope. Nope. Nope.
    .
    Melo to the Pistons could have just meant disharmony, a star player who doesn’t fit the team concept and pisses off the veterans. There is no way to know what would have happened with that team. .
    But we would never have been fooled into thinking Melo > LeBron. None of the intelligent basketball community is that dumb. It’s not close.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    talent wise who would you take Magic or Lebron

  • Michael

    He might become the best ever. But he ll never become the greatest ever. and there is a difference. a difference between being better and being greater. He is after all bigger than jordan, more athletic than magic, thats natural, he s a generation and a half later than either. Players get better. its always been the case. Bigger, faster, better training. But greatness?
    greatness is measured not in vertical, in ppg, in effeciency..
    greatness is measured in moments, in memories, in mystique, in legacy, in influence, in rings, greatness is measured in greatness ….
    And in terms of greatness? I dont see Lebron coming close. MJ was an absolute cultural, sporting, athletic, phenomenon- a cyclone of athletic ability when he came in – we hadnt seen a human like this before. And I dont think we will again, nobody played, moved, acted like MJ. Thats greatness

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    then why is there an issue with Kobe and Lebron

    It’s obvious kobe’s first three rings came easy with Shaq

    And that front line of Ron, Pau, Bynum was absurb.

    The greatness of kobe’s skillset is masked by how his team performs when he scores a lot. The more kobe scores the less his team thrives.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Haha I don’t ever really see Bron getting to that point. I think the league is simply too competitive for anyone to have that much success while remaining the top dog ever again. Jordan freaking retired and still dominated the league just the same when he came back. That sh*ts so damn crazy fam

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    The only issue between LeBron and Kobe historically is Kobe has been around for 18 years and LeBron only 10. I think we all know Kobe was never THIS good at his peak. He just experienced more team success and the longevity factor. Which in the all-time ranks is a big part. LeBron will pass him if he stays healthy, I don’t think that’s really a debate.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    if you had to start a franchise

    name your top 5 players you would pick

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    From scratch?

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    i dont’ think the 5 greatest players ever to play or the 5 resumes equate to who would you take straight up to build a franchise

    like if you were a GM would you take Larry Bird over Penny Hardway if you had to start from scratch?

    I know many people would most likely pick all centers if they had to start a franchise but amongst pg, sg, sf to ever play name your top 5 players that you would take to start a franchise from scratch

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    I think the fairest way to determine whose a better player is to say “OK I’m a GM and if had to build a franchise from scratch who would get me the most wins”

    Lbj easily gets jordan because of how lebron’s overall game.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Yeah this is totally different then “best” from scratch I’d go,

    Russell
    Magic
    James
    Shaq
    Bird

  • pposse

    so i guess when your a sixth seed going up against a 1 seed and lose its not expected. Again in 1990 when the 2nd seeded bulls lost to the 1st seeded pistons and pushed them to the brink of elimination it wasn’t expected. None of that is ‘relevant’.

  • pposse

    so its not possible he improved from playing with superior talent? “under lebrons tutelage”?! say what now…man wade always gets thrown under the bus readily by lebron fans. Your talking about the 4th or 3rd best SG ever and another hall of famer.

    Lebron goggles got the strong prescription, straight up beta blockers.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Sure, go by whatever information you can find on NBA.com or basketball-reference. That’s an awesome way to revise history. Ask France how the narrative around Jordan was. He may not say exactly what I am, but it will be very similar.

  • pposse

    i really don’t understand the point your trying to make. The bulls surprised many a teams in 89. You remember the ‘shot’ right?! the bulls were down when MJ hung in the air and hit a double clutch jumper in the first round against a better Cleveland team. No revision of history that’s what happened. Just like the Bulls, a 46 win team lost to a 60 plus win team.

  • robb

    Magic Johnson hardly knows MJ’s career? Charles Barkley hardly knows MJ’s career? what about Larry Bird or younger guys like KD, Lebron and Kobe? all of them are some of the biggest NBA stars of all time and all of then have said Jordan is the GOAT, it’s not just a sneaker head thing. You thing you know better? Don’t be stupid.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Ugh, dude this isn’t about the Bulls. This is about the narrative around Jordan. Just like LeBron’s 2-2 record in the finals is only used if totally ignoring his team situations. The narrative around Jordan was that he would never win a title (same about LeBron) before he did. And then it was about him not being good enough to the “the goat” or “better than Magic” (LeBron will never be the goat…or better than Kobe) – it’s not much different at all. Losing at the biggest stages is a staple of every all timer except Russell. Where/when they lost, is and has always been, irrelevant. It’s about how much they won.

  • Ben Oliphint

    Think of the MJ/LBJ debate like Jack Nicholson vs. Heath Ledger as the Joker… Heath might have absolutely WRECKED his performance as the Joker, but he modeled his performance after Nicholson who’d done it FIRST. Lebron modeled his game after Jordan like most basketball players do, so you have to give credit to his Airness simply because he opened a door for ALL athletes to aspire to be “Like Mike”. Lebron could MAYBE end up with a better career, but Jordan did it first, and was Lebron’s inspiration.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    first off beta blockers are used to alleviate glucoma and higher intraocular pressures so that will clear one’s vision.

    Wade is only in contention for top 3 or 4 sg because Lebron got him 2 titles.

    How did lebron improve with superior talent when that superior talent (wade and bosh) haven’t played up to the level you remember they use to play.

    Lebron improved by working with hakeem on his post and changing his approach to the game. He had to adapt to the Heat so he could win. if Wade played like he did in 06 then lebron would never have gone to hakeem. Injuries have hurt wade.

    Whose better Tracy McGrady or Wade in their primes?

  • pposse

    the narrative around Lebron on the cavs might have been that he would never win a title but after the decision it was a foregone conclusion that he would win multiple titles, to his credit, him and the heat have done kudos to Lebron. Lebron changed that narrative prematurely with the decision, why can’t people see this? This isn’t some blip in the radar type of deal. It only came back when he jagged in the finals against Dallas of all teams. Now that he won his rings, yes the narrative might be similar to MJ’s.

  • robb

    his “weak” supporting included Ray Allen, the greatest NBA shooter ever who by the way he saved his @ss in the finals. Wade is one of the best SGs of all time and he was crucial, Bosh too. WTF are you talking about? The Heat are not the Cavs.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Nobody was beating Dallas. And you can make up a bunch of excuses about Jordan but it’s pointless. Nun the end, it’s about winning, how often a team won, and how consistently they did it. Losing after you start winning is when the criticism starts to stick. That’s why Wilt never lived it down. After 76ers he had to go to LA in order to win AGAIN. – Kobe gets criticized because he messed up a title team after they had already won. Nobody says Shaq isn’t as great because he lost to Hakeem, or didn’t win till his 9th season, 3rd with Kobe. It’s not going to be any different with James. In the end, his all-time legacy will really carry weight after his first title. Just the way it is.

  • pposse

    first off beta blockers can help you focus on the task at hand, they can give you tunnel vision so to speak. MC’s at major events like the Emmys would say get prescribed them. So my analogy works, cause seriously I dont think you are ‘seeing the big picture’.

    See that’s all hearsay that Wade only won 2 rings cause of Lebron. No one knows the damage Wade could have done with just Bosh, and Bron on another team or stayed in Cleveland. He was the 2nd best baller after the 2010 season and then had to share the ball or basically give up his role to the best baller in the world. Injuries hurt Wade recently, yes i agree with this, but whose to say he would suffer them if the team he plays on wasn’t constructed the way it is. Wade is regarded as a top sg of all time cause he earned that title.

    I would take Wade in his prime, he proved to be a winner and had the intangibles that winners have.

  • Sergio

    Are you kidding me? Simce joining Miami, Lebron has had two top 15 players and a great supporting cast, making the Heat easilisy the team with the best roster in the past 3 years. Mj had one top 15 player, Bird had one and Magic had one or two, depending on the period.

  • pposse

    i have a problem with that ‘its just the way it is’ part. All those other players you mentioned didn’t put themselves in a position to win rings the way Lebron did. They let the dominoes fall as it may. Regardless of how the Miami Heatles came to be, they came to be, that team and in particular Lebron should not be treated the same as others. I’ll argue it till im blue in the face lol, the world is not fair nor are the Heat!!

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Shaq didn’t choose LA in free agency? What happened?

    Magic didn’t say, “if LA doesn’t draft me I’m not coming out”
    .
    Kareem didn’t choose LA? Players dictating where they go? Just as normal.

  • pposse

    Kobe was an infant..13th overall pick or something of that nature. Nothing was guaranteed. so when Shaq went there he wasn’t guaranteed a ring the way the Heat were. LA had the first pick, and yeah Magic was great, but by Jordan’s 3rd ring there was serious debate about whether or not he was better than Magic. Hell by that time Magic himself pretty much admitted that he was better. How often do 3 playoff teams combine into 1? Its not about the players dictating where they go, although I believe there is something to it as well, but its about the end result. Bosh took the raps to the playoffs in 09, in 10 they were competing up until the last week for that 8th spot i belive.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    And by LeBron’s 3rd ring……..what?
    .
    Your argument is purely stemming from personal feelings. That’s pretty clear at this point. Goodnight man. LeBron has a chance. A small one. Disagree? That’s fine. You’ll probably end up right.

  • https://twitter.com/jasontichenor Mr. Wet

    Lebron will pass bird as soon as the people who never got to see bird play are the majority. If he starts to be labeled as GOAT it will be the same. I never saw Russel play, so his name never pops in my head for that discussion. It will be a generation arguement, if it isn’t already.

  • https://twitter.com/jasontichenor Mr. Wet

    and then i scrolled down and saw this after I commented on another post…. so co-sign.

  • pposse

    its not personal feelings..i’ve laid my case on the table. In order for Lebron to be considered the greatest he would probably have to take down the 7 rings he proclaimed plus more not go to game 7′s in the finals to show pure dominance and never disappoint. Disapoint meaning he gets all the rings until he’s like 35 yrs old.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    lol no way.

    This isn’t ray on the sonics.

    Wade only gets that because lebron won him 2 rings (look at the pacers playoffs Wade couldn’t hang with lance stephenson). Bosh Bosh Bosh –> ask Hibbert and West

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    How? Dennis Rodman and Pippen are HOFs

    Bosh isn’t getting into the hall of fame. Wade w/o lebron’s 2 titles isn’t a HOF

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    That’s unrealistic. And it totally ignores any context. I think people are more intelligent then to just go by “ringzzzzzz” – it’ll take 5 or more, cuz Michael, Magic, Kareem, Russell all have 5 or more. But other than that, depends on the league, and how long he remains on top.

  • pposse

    lol c’mon man

  • bball knowledge

    Championships are a TEAM accomplishment, I dont think you can hold it against him if he doesnt win five championships, it all depends on situation and circumstance. Just like when Magic got drafted to a stacked Lakers team in the 80′s and how Lebron carried a Cavs team for years and could not win a championship so he had to leave.

  • Guest

    LEBRON is just a NEW VERSION of SCOTTIE PIPPEN & GRANT HILL…. STRAIGHT UP!!!

  • robb

    Wade isn’t a HOF? You sound like Skip Bayless saying without Jordan Pippen wouldn’t be a HOF. C’mon you’re trolling too hard.

  • Conor

    LOL

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    It doesn’t matter. That’s how
    Legacies work. And in basketball, unlike any other sport, the best player has more of an impact on winning then anyone else. So that’s how they are most often measured.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    You need sympathetic stimulation to Focus. Addrall,Cocaine, ephedrine help you get that affect. Beta Blockers would decrease your Heart Rate and give you a parasympathetic-like or Rest -like response. Please refer to Autonomic Physiology.

    No. Wade was not the 2nd best baller in 2010. Playing on a bad team inflates the stats. No he didn’t give up his role – he had no choice. If wade was better than lebron he wouldn’t need to give up his role.

    Billups and wade both 1 finals mvp as well as tony parker.

    Intangibles that winners have — there’s no evidence to support that claim. That’s like saying the Holy Spirit inspired the Bible even though it is full of contradictions.

    Wade played great in the finals in 06 but he had shaq
    Billups had a crazy nice cast

    Tracy Mcgrady would smash wade if they were in their primes. Tracy McGrady was better than Kobe in their primes.

    Offensively Vince Carter would smash wade in their primes.

    Ray Allen on the bucks would smash wade in their primes.

    Allen Iverson would smash wade in their primes.

    Give any of those 3 players Shaq and they all would have been winners.

  • Guest

    REAL SH*T… 100%

  • Guest

    Dog I HATE YOU!!!!

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    my fault i should have corrected that Wade is a HOF just like Billups, and Paul pierce is they both got 1 finals MVPs.

    But reality is tracy Mcgrady regardles of rings would easily outclass wade on the court.

    here’s my question:

    Rank these SGs just based on their play and no accomplishments.

    Vince carter, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, James harden, tracy McGrady, Paul Pierce

  • bball knowledge

    I guess Floyd Mayweather is the greatest Boxer (including Tyson and Ali) of all time since he is 42-0 in his career.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    Then i must be saying something right. critical thinking differs from intellectual arrogance in that there is merit to what I say and not just subjective emotional responses

  • pposse

    would they average 40 pts in the finals and have one of the best finals performances ever?

    http://vividmethod.com/drugs-for-anxiety-beta-blockers-for-public-speaking/

    an article about how it helps public speaking.

  • King Of All Kingz

    REAL TALK…100%

  • robb

    McGrady and Wade to me is a tie. (My fav is McGrady but I’m being objective)

    Kobe
    Wade/McGrady
    Pierce (he’s a SF though)
    Vince
    Harden

  • robb

    That’s exactly what I think.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    pierce played sg.. antoine walker played sf… as time has progressed smaller players are playing positions that aren’t according to tradition.

    Wade couldn’t hang with vince when vince was on the raptors.

  • King Of All Kingz

    Man, I HEAR & SEE What THE MEDIA Is Trying To Do LOUD & CLEAR With Their SH*T-STARTING ASS & That SH*T IS 100% WEAK Cause People Are FALLING FOR IT HOOK, LINE & SINKER!!! …DO I BELIEVE THAT (LEBRON) Has The TALENT To Be GREAT??? …HELL YEAH I DO… WITHOUT A DOUBT, Cause I Know When It’s All SAID & DONE… He Will DEFINITELY BE & GO DOWN As ONE OF THE GREATEST TO EVER PLAY HANDS DOWN & So Will (KOBE) …But Not “THE GREATEST” YA FEEL ME… (JORDAN) ALREADY OWN THAT TITLE & WILL DIE WITH IT ALSO, So THE MEDIA Need To QUIT TRYING TO BRAINWASH PEOPLE Into This RETARDED ASS “WHO’S BETTER” BULLSH*T & Just Let These UNNECESSARY ASS COMPARISONS Go & Let (LEBRON) Continue To Make His Own NAME, HISTORY & PATH Towards HIS OWN LEGACY… Not (JORDAN’s) & Not (KOBE’s) EITHER… HIS OWN!!!

  • Dagger

    Would you place Wilt in that MJ/Kareem conversation? Did his extreme talent sufficiently outweigh his allegedly spotty commitment to winning?

  • robb

    Wade’s more complete than Carter. He’s always been. Carter’s a better 3pt shooter that’s it.

  • Dagger

    Look, if you want to define greatness in intangibles, I choose Bill Russell. Flash is one thing, but heart, leadership, and unselfishness are the core of team sports. Nobody epitomized them like Russell.

  • AddingVelocityDontTellMe

    robert it was nice speaking with you. Peace be upon you and your loved ones.

  • robb

    night bro

  • Guest

    You f*ck.

  • LeBrick

    Success is getting in his head. Bu as far as beig GOAT? No matter how may more MVPs or Rings he gets he aint gonna e GOAT!

  • Sergio

    Rodman was great, but not a top 15 player in the league. Wade was already a surefire HOF before Lebron, and Bosh, in the end of the day, will become one as well.

  • Caboose

    Bird over Jordan? Really?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    I don’t want to build a team from scratch around Jordan. Not young Jordan at least.

  • Caboose

    I’m curious.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    He was such an asshole. And he was so egocentric. Is rather have a guy other stars want to play with.

  • Caboose

    Young Jordan? Yeah, I’ll give you that. I assumed we were going from prime. But fair enough, building around young Jordan would be damn near impossible.

  • Drig

    Honestly, why is 6 outta 6 better than say, 6 outta 8???? Remember, LBJ took a team to the Finals in his 3rd year? ( I may be wrong here) Jordan wasn’t even near that? And we’re gonna start faulting players for pushing their team to the Finals and then losing to a team which is simply much better????

  • Drig

    Exactly man. What difference does it make if a guy gets swept in the Finals or loses in 6/7 games in the Conference Finals…..

    The way I see it, getting swept in the Finals is better.

  • Drig

    Kobe’s the most complete BBall player.

  • Run

    LeBron will be lucky to get another ring. Of course, he has the potential to get several more, because he’s so young. But he’s no Magic, he’s no Jordan, he’s no Kobe, he’s no Kareem, and he’s no Oscar Robertson either.

    He’s a very gifted athlete playing against watered down competition. He’s also benefitting from over-officiating. Hand-checking is illegal now, whereas a decade ago and earlier that wasn’t the case. Nowadays, you tap a guy while he has the ball at a standstill and the refs call holding. It’s just like in pro football: the game is now made for pansies, and Lebron is one of them.

    I will NEVER look at Lebron the way I look at those other players, because he pulled a (b)ytch move when he left Cleveland for Miami! He’s weak!!!!!

  • Run

    Lets also remember that Jordan essentially gave up three opportunities to win titles…even more when you consider that he left in 1997 when he still had mad game.

    Jordan was potentially in Bill Russell territory as far as “pace”. He could have gotten 10 titles, and magic might have won 7 or 8 had he not been HIV positive.

  • Smits#45

    The “GOAT” and your “favorite player” are two entirely different things. Don’t mix them up. You’re welcome…

  • Smits#45

    I haven’t watched enough Jordan games to make a good judgement on who’s going to be the better player at the end of their careers. If you look solely at their accomplishments I think Lebron has a long and hard way to go but to say (like a lot of people here do) that Lebron will never be the GOAT doesn’t seem fair to me. He has a chance.

  • hamidashimono

    Nope. If he gets a four-peat he is already in the conversation. Plus, with the CBA as it is, it’s waaaay more difficult to maintain dynasties compared with other eras.

  • Busta213

    You sound like an old person rambling about the good old days….He made a smart move in moving from Cleveland. I think its rather weak-minded to ignore that aspect. You don’t complain about Magic or Kobe or Kareem dictating their situations. Whats with the double-standard?

    LOL – Bron is benefitting from over officiating? As if everyone hes competing against isn’t playing under the same rules. Face it, the guy takes hits and finishes more than almost anyone in the league….which just makes you sound rather foolish when you call him a pansy.

    BTW there was a change in hand checking rules while MJ was playing, but that doesn’t affect your perception of him as goat , does it?

  • Busta213

    MJ was Brons hero, but his game clearly wasn’t modeled to be like mike’s. Plus its not like players didn’t pave the way for MJ yet in your eyes MJ is better than Dr J.

  • Busta213

    Lol, some people think he already is the goat. That’s the instant gratification generation for ya, (smh) lol.

  • danpowers

    nope, lebron. getting your own game mode in nba 2k14 doesnt put you on track to draw even with mj. a leap in performance to overhumanness as jordan did around the age of 28 is not very probable, but getting as close as it gets is no shame.

    lebron is a mashine and i hate that he will most likely take the next nba championship too.

  • danpowers

    you are right, in the 90s the game was way more physical and these other guys had to deal with more rugged play than todays players. but to be fair: today we got zone defense, better defensive concepts in general and more athleticism and depth in the whole league. imo that makes it a little tougher in todays nba for most players to put up individual numbers like talented guys did in the 80s. ironically what people love most about his game – that pass first mentality – is what lets his critics say he lacks killer instinct. i think in the mean time he prove that this style of play can very well translate into championships and successful team basketball (how many finals did he reach again as his teams best player? who else accomplished that at his age?)

    i agree that it does not seem likely that he will surpass or draw even with mj, not even if he goes on to win a total of 7 chapionships (if we measure it that way then robert horry was a better player than charles barkley). i also agree that he seems to be a big douche as a person and lacks the greatness mj seemed to posess.

    but lets be fair: jordan, bird, magic and kobe got drafted by teams who managed to attract big names and surround these guys with the necessary talent to be able to win championships. leron james stayed quite some time in cleveland and who were the best secondary scorers he had there? larry hughes? mo willams? big z? come on. compare that to the supporting casts of the 90s bulls, 80s celtics and lakers of kobe’s championship squads with shaq and later gasol.

    as great as oscar robinson was individually and as many grievance in form of racism he had to face: he didnt really translate his talent into team success in a way that james does and he faced lesser athleticism and (mostly) lesser skilled defenders in times of higher paced basketball. considering their performance in terms of bringing their teams success, james already surpassed big o.

    i wont touch abdul-jabbar here, but apparently he didnt finish his career with the team that drafted him neither.

    i dont see why james shouldnt be on track to surpass or draw even with all those players who stand second to jordan. besides personal animosity towards his personality i see no reasonable argument against him being considered among the games all time greats.

  • TR

    LeBron is going to be the second best player of all time when he retires, at worst.

  • pposse

    yeah well the team Lebron was on was made pre cba and trust me none of those guys are going anywhere. Watch Wade extend his contract with this Heat next offseason for less money.

  • havoc33

    I don’t know about that, I think the debate will always be there. Lebron in his 10th season still had the Spurs guarding him as if he was a rookie in the Finals. Who you want to put in your top 10 will always be subjective no matter how hard you try not to, as people will value certain aspects of the game more than others.

  • havoc33

    Dude you are seriously tripping.

  • havoc33

    let’s not conveniently forget that the refs played a huge part in that series as well now, eh?

  • pposse

    paxon hit a big shot in game 5 of the nba finals, when the bulls were up 3-1 in that series. Kerr hit a big/ open shot in a tie game in the last ten seconds of the game and btw the bulls were up 3-2 in that series. None of those shots are even comparable to the shot Ray Allen hit. Game 6 down 3-2 about to lose the championship before Ray came up crucial in the clutch.

  • TR

    Agreed…its probably the biggest shot in nba history or tied with whatever else is even close.

  • pposse

    i dont agree with that. Wade went to the line a lot, but no one in the league, forget the finals, no one in the league was attacking the bucket the way Wade was attacking the bucket in those years. He earned a lot of those calls, and then got some more based on reputation imo.

  • pposse

    I would say that MJ’s ‘Last Shot’ is right up there too!

  • havoc33

    Now this is crazy talk. No way Carter, Allen or Iverson would kill Wade. Only one who could is arguably TMac. And no, Shaw with either Carter, Allen or Iverson does not equal a championship.

  • havoc33

    Look, I respect Wade’s game, but don’t tell me the refs didn’t help Wade’s numbers in that series. I’ve yet to see Kobe, heck even Lebron, get such superstar treatment in the Finals. It was weird when it happened and it looks even more strange now.

  • thebossman15

    if melo defended the way he can at all times instead of focusing on his offense(which is of course superior to lebrons) and he tried too get his teammates the ball a bit more than the argument would be very valid in terms of skill, not so much accomplishments, but those would likely follow suit

  • Kim Hargreaves

    Not sure you could have made a worse comparison. Ledgers Joker is nothing like Jacks and was definitely not modeled on it. Lebron plays nothing like Mike other than they both dominate the ball and the stats might look similar. Kobe modeled his game on Mike but Lebron is his own beast.

  • thebossman15

    wow someone with sense on this site on this lebron nut riding page!
    *cough nbk* cough

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    You think Melo is superior to LeBron on offense? Is it LeBrons higher career scoring average? His higher shooting %? His more assists? Or more rebounds? Oh wait

  • Busta213

    Oh, Kobe didnt know what he was doing when he refused to play for any franchise apart from the most storied/glamorous franchise ever? Just an infant? ROFL.

  • Busta213

    Do people really consider Bosh a top 15 player?

  • pposse

    your comment spews hate. I shouldn’t even respond to this nonsense, but ofcourse an 18 yr old Kobe knew from day one that he would be regarded as the second best SG ever. Thats precisely why 12 other teams in the draft past him up. You trying to say Shaq with an 18 yr old Kobe was an automatic championship contender is ridiculous, complete revisionist history to back up your boy Lebron

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    not in my opinion. i can’t put Wilt above Russell, just based off of Russell’s dominance in the match up.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    well i don’t really have the ability to fantasize (even in a world of fiction) where you start a franchise with a player in his prime, and he just stays there forever. lol — if we were in that world, my list would be very different.

  • thebossman15

    what does rebounding have to do with an offensive skill set, melo has better footwork, is a better post player, has a tighter handle, better jumpshot etc. the only reason lebron has a higher field goal percentage is because he plays knowing that if he scores or not his team will be in a position too win regardless, they dont need him too score a lot in order to win 75% of the time which allows him too coast and score dam near all of his points on the fast break/free throws/ wide open jumpers..dude learn the game of basketball before you argue, why do you ride the mans dick so hard its just stupidity, lebron is better overall, melo is much superior offensively #FACT

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    LeBron scores more efficiently from the post.
    .
    LeBron get’s more assists, = turnovers, and plays some PG for his team.
    .
    he’s ALWAYS had a higher FG%, always. Some weird made up excuse about “knowing his team will be in a position to win regardless” really has nothing to do with shooting %. No intelligent (yes, that is an insult) person on this planet thinks Melo is better than LeBron offensively. Take that as a sign.
    .
    you are an idiot.

  • kobrick

    lol at the jordan nut lickers

    1.russell
    2.jordan (jordan has 6 bill russell awards)
    3.magic
    4.kareem
    5.tim duncan (or shaq)
    6.shaq (or duncan)
    7.wilt
    8.bird
    9.lebron
    10.kobrick

  • thebossman15

    what planet do you live on you moron, and what the F*^& does passing have too do with anything, im talking about the ability too score the ball like dude wtf is this guy doing too you at night? and yes knowing his team will be in a position to win does help his field goal percentage u clueless mf, he doesnt have too force shots/he gets double teamed less than a quarter of the amount that melo does cuz he has an amazing supporting cast too alleviate pressure whereas melo has too create the entire offence and success is ENTIRELY dependent on him..YOU are the only one who thinks lebron has a better offensive skill set then melo lol smh..with your reasoning you probably think lebron is the best scorer in the league huh?

  • kobrick

    stop licking perimeter players’ nuts all the time

    shaq on the lakers from 00-02 is THE BEST OR 2ND BEST PLAYER EVER

    mjs first 3peat compares to shaqs but thats it…the 2nd one was nowhere near shaqs level

    russell, shaq, duncan, wilt, kareem, olajuwon could easily be the best 6 players ever

    stupid people act like kobrick and lebrick are the only two players who compare to mj (who isnt even the goat russell is)

    stupid stupid

  • kobrick

    jordan – 6 bill russell awards
    shaq – 3 bill russell awards
    magic – 3 bill russell awards
    duncan – 3 bill russell awards

    notice a common theme here?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    nope, Kevin Durant is clearly the best scorer in the league.
    .
    so what is your excuse about 2007? explain how Melo is better, “LeBron just has more success because of his supporting cast” but 2007 happened.
    .
    if Melo really is a better scorer, explain 2006 and 2008, seasons where LeBron averaged more PPG than Melo ever has, on a shooting % Melo has only gotten to once (while LeBron’s .484% shooting was his 4th lowest…..of his career)
    .
    use facts, go ahead, PROVE yourself right. you want respect for your opinion? prove it.
    .
    otherwise, you are just an over opinionated moron.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Yup, Bill Russell played before them.

  • thebossman15

    lol dude the fact that you think kd is a better scorer than melo astounds me, why is it you cant admit that melo is a better scorer than lebron? you and I both know kd doesnt have a better offensive skill set than melo..the dude doesnt even have a post game..over time he will be more skilled offensively if he develops his post game and is certainly better than melo was at that age. You solely depend on facts and have no judgement whatsoever. Basketball, let alone sports, is not for you man

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    “You solely depend on facts and have no judgement whatsoever.”

    - Actually i depend on my opinion, then i use facts to support them. Like everyone should. That’s how intelligent opinions are proven.
    .
    And “skillset” is irrelevant. IT’s how you apply it. Kobe has the best skillset in the league. But his shot selection is 2 levels above drunk. So he doesn’t get the most out of those skills, like he could.
    .
    it’s very simple. how many moves, or how cool they look, is totally and completely irrelevant. it’s about what they actually do, and how they produce. Melo is not a better offensive player then Durant, or LeBron. He’s got more “skills” offensively then both, sure. But he doesn’t apply them at even the same level, let alone better.
    .
    And i’ve been playing sports my entire life. Basketball – 22 years. Baseball – 18 years. Soccer – 10 years. Golf – 17 years. All at competitive levels. Sports are what I know. Keep the ignorant assumptions that you base solely off of your ignorant ass opinion to yourself. Or keep waiving them around like a big flag. Whatever makes you happy.

  • thebossman15

    dude if you were talking 05-07 kobe and you tried too tell me he was 2 levels above drunk, you would possibly have an argument, but if you looked carefully you would realize that he would also have too be “2 levels above drunk” to even want too consider passing too those “teammates” in that time span after shaq and before pau. If you are arguing his shot selection today is poor then you are just sick in the head..theres not many people who shoot 46 percent shooting bad shots and if the shots he is taking are all bad he sure makes a hell of a lot of them and hes won 5 rings playing that way. Kobe is the best player post mj im not gonna touch on that because thats a whole different argument..

    of course you bring up something i never touched on “it’s very simple. how many moves, or how cool they look, is totally and completely irrelevant” ..when did i ever bring that up? and once again lebron and kd both have alpha males on their teams(wade+bosh, westbrook etc) guys who are elite players and attract doubles of their own so scoring will come much easier and i already touched on that..melo has a bunch of spot up shooters who cant create jack and depend on him like baby cubs

  • Spaceship Jay

    No DPOYs. Next subject please.

  • Run

    I am not old at all, but I appreciate authenticity. Lebron is to Kobe and MJ what Li’l Wayne and Nicki Menaj are to 2Pac, Biggie, Rakim, QL, MC Lyte, and Li’l Kim…A PRETENDER!

    You guys who want to anoint Lebron as the GOAT are seriously delusional. MJ himself considers only Kobe and magic to be true challengers. MJ said recently that, of all of the so-called greats, the only one who would beat him in his and their primes is Kobe.

    Lebron is a great physical specimen and athlete, but as a ball player, he is the equivalent of George Foreman, and its only a matter of time until he meets his Ali. Lebron isn’t even the best player of the last decade, let alone all-time. Certainly Kobe, but maybe even Tim Duncan and D-Wade surpass him.

    He’s mentally weak, and without d-wade he would have zero titles!

  • Run

    Magic Johnson is the greatest ever, with MJ a very close second and Kareem third. Kobe is fourth. Lebron could be fifth, but you’d be putting him over Shaq, Wilt and Tim Duncan, as well as Hakeem, Oscar, Bill Russell, and a few others. That’s a tough sell for me at this point.

    He will never top the first four, and I have a problem even putting him in the top-6. The guy is arguably only the third or fourth best player of the past decade and a half, for cryin ‘ outloud! Kobe, KG, Shaq, AI, Duncan, D-Wade…

    Kobe, Shaq and TD are the best, but you can argue D-Wade and AI against him, too.

  • Run

    Nobody except for Magic!

  • Run

    Although people love to put Larry bird in a class with MJ, magic and Kareem, etc., he really isn’t in the same class. His teammates were extremely underrated. Lebron passing Bird would be a good start, but it doesn’t put him in the same class with MJ, Magic, Kareem, Kobe, Shaq, etc.

    One other name getting passed over is Oscar!

  • Run

    Magic…every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Magic was a supreme athlete who had bad knees later in his career. Physically, he WAS Lebron when he entered the league, only ten times smarter and a much better ball-handler and passer.

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