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Thursday, September 5th, 2013 at 2:40 pm  |  232 responses

Tracy McGrady Says He Wouldn’t Have Clashed With Shaq Like Kobe Did


Recently retired Tracy McGrady continues to make his media rounds. When asked about how he stacked up against Kobe Bryant during his prime, T-Mac says he fared quite well. McGrady also added that had he gotten a chance to play alongside Shaquille O’Neal, their relationship would have been a lot better. Per Fox Sports (via Larry Brown Sports): “Numbers don’t lie. I was in the conversation of being one of the best in the league,’ McGrady said on Wednesday. ‘Whether I was better than Kobe, or he was better than me … I was in the conversation and it didn’t matter at the time. I was playing at a high level and was very confident when I was on the court.’ [...] ‘We would have had a great run,’ he said when asked about Shaq. ‘I don’t know how many (championships we would’ve won) but, I know it would have never ended like it did with he and Kobe. I have a great relationship with Shaq. We would have never clashed heads like that. Two Alpha dogs going at there will always be (something going on).’”

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  • Ishmael Jenkins

    Nothing new. Heard this years ago while they were both still the best two offensive players in the league. Can’t disagree with him. This is the dude Shaq kissed during the All-Star Game so they had a different relationship. People have said the same about LeBron too playing with a younger Shaq than he played with. They would have run off a bunch of championships without any friction. Also heard a few people talk about an Iverson/Shaq combo instead of a Kobe/Shaq combo while AI was still playing.

  • Vince

    You need a player who motivates you to win and Kobe did that for Shaq as he would call him up before huge games that focused the Diesel towards taking no prisoners for that particular game. Kobe has done that with Pau and also helped him elevate his game when it counts. McGrady would’ve been to passive and Shaq would’ve made him cower from screaming at him at practice where Kobe just made him work that much harder to shut everyone up. McGrady and work is an oxymoron if you didn’t know.

  • Ashley

    mcgrady had a 3-5 year period when he was a legit all star…kobe has been playing all star bball for 15+ years. his averages post.shaq are spectacular

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    8 years. And he was arguably the best wing in the league for 4 of them (which includes Kobe).. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mcgratr01.html#2001-2008-sum:per_game

  • Saleem Rainman

    oh shut up.

  • speedy

    Kobe wasn’t the guy, that shaq took advice or motivation from in his prime.
    If needed there was Phil Jackson, that knew how to put fuel into shaqs fire. Kobe did a lot for those Laker teams in terms of filling stat sheets and playing great basketball, but never was the relationship between shaq and him at a level, were shaq gave a sh”, what Kobe called him up for.

  • Bruce Wayne

    That’s an extremely naive statement. The guy went from high school straight to the NBA, and became one of the best players of his generation. So explain how a person that doesn’t work hard would be able to accomplish that..

  • Evan Boland

    He had the STATS, I’ll give you that. Never had a winners attitude, though.

  • UKnowSquat

    Just like Stockton was “arguably” the best “pure” point guard during Magic’s era but we know who got the rings. Yes! That’s all that matters! Losers.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    a winner’s attitude? LOL. oh, well, since you were his teammate right? or because he was on such talented teams that had a chance at winning, right?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Shaq vs Michael Doleac.
    .
    “shut up, ringz!”
    .
    lol, Losers.

  • NBA Gosspel

    You are talking about getting there and relishing in the hard work but what happened after that? He allowed his body to deteriorate by not putting in that “hard work” that keeps you at the top. Slacker!

  • CR

    and what your so connected because you played with him on NBA Live….Get over yourself..everyone said he never had the tiger attitude…Even his old coach asked to get the guys ready and he said he doesnt do that….

  • Ashley

    and as a LA.native, the biggest misconception about that early 00s lakers team was that it was ALL kobe…when shaq had his own issues. And wasn’t mcgrady on san Antonio this past season and got no PT. meanwhile kobe made all nba again. lets not compare what someone accomplished for 5-8 years( so u say nbk) to 12 x first team nba, 15 x all star.

  • WhatUp

    A winning attitude means you keep working on your craft even after all those alls tar appearences. T-Mac is a case of “satisfied by getting to the top”. Champs keep on working… “Practice… we talking practice?” Another great with out that “Winners” intangible. Sounds like you also lack this ethic and therefore can’t comprehend. Sorry… loser!

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Winners Attitude / Leader = Two Different Things.
    .
    ANd i didn’t say i knew either way. just funny to make such a dumb statement ….. unless you know the guy, or played with him.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    LOL, and how do you KNOW that McGrady stopped working on his craft?

  • UKnowSquat

    You know SQUAT about how they did things back in the days.

  • shockexchange

    T-Mac would have abandoned Shaq just like he abandoned Vince Carter … What happens when you take “career advice from Shelley Long” http://clicky.me/7hhM

  • Sergio

    Its cool that you pointed this out, cause everyone is forgetting that T Mac abandoned Carter because he wanted to be the “owner” of a team – the same thing people use to criticize Kobe.

  • spit hot fiyah

    or heard from his coach that he coasted in practice

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    i mean, i sort of heard that. but that was when his back was all messed up, and he was actually encouraged to take it easy. — which is where the, “McGrady is a waste of talent” thing came from. That or the appearance of his sleepy ass face.

  • spit hot fiyah

    i read the quote from van gundy.

    if i was to defend him though i would say that some players just make it look effortless while they actually busting their butt. and sometimes it’s hard to know who’s who.

    i played with a guy that i know played hard and was a real competitor. but it just always looked like was in 2nd gear and didn’t give a crap

  • Steven310

    You sound like an idiot. Tracy McGrady had 8 seasons where he posted elite numbers. Being great isn`t possible without having great work ethic no matter how much God-given talent you have. Unfortunately, he was a little injury prone which probably shortened his career about 3-4 yearss. Being apart of team(s) that have won championships, i.e. Bryant does not mean you have greater work ethic than someone who hasn`t been. I don`t understand how anyone can reasonably say that guys who haven`t won titles yet were the best players in the game at some point in their careers have no work ethic. Being great doesn`t happen over night. Guys like McGrady, Iverson, Barkley, Malone, Stockton, etc all worked on their craft to become elite, they just haven`t been apart of championship teams.

  • Steven310

    “mcgrady had a 3-5 year period when he was a legit all star.” What? T-Mac had 8 seasons where he was one of the top wings in the league.

    “kobe has been playing all star bball for 15+ years. his averages post.shaq are spectacular” Bryant has had 14 seasons where he has been one of the top wings in the league. His first 3 seasons were below average, average, and above average. Yes his ppg is a little better in the post Shaq era as one would expect it to be lol. But he averaged exactly 30 ppg with Shaq and has only averaged 30+ ppg twice in the post Shaq era so…. I think consistent would be the better word to use rather than spectacular. Outside of ppg no other statistical category is off the charts.

  • LakeShow

    So basically, allot of talk.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    yeah, in Houston. You know how that situation went. He was sort of hurt. Van Gundy likes to push buttons. It’s not like he was actually coasting. Not that he was the hardest working guy in the league by any stretch, but coasting just doesn’t seem very legit.

  • Saleem Rainman

    if u read the interview t-mac himself admitted that he coasted in practice, cuz he didnt have the motivation to “bust his @ss”. But the reasoning he gave for it was he was palying 45 minutes a game and then the next day had to come and practice, so it was tough. He did also say he thought practicing was overrated though… lol just give it a listen. Apart from that i agree with everything ur saying, do go on.

  • LakeShow

    I don’t believe you T-Mac.

    Prove it.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    link?

  • underdog
  • Saleem Rainman
  • Steven310

    So your reasoning behind every injury is that the athlete got injured because he/she was not putting in “hard work” so they`re slackers.

    So Rose injured himself because he was slacking off? Bryant injured last season because he was slacking off? Rondo tore his acl because he was slacking off? Really?!

  • Saleem Rainman

    sorry, meant listen to the interview, not read it lol.

  • rande3p

    trippin if u think Tmac better than Kobe… dunno why so much focus on mcgrady’s bad teammates yet nobody brings up the bad teammates when discussing his numbers… easy to fill stats.. not easy of course but in regards to being a NBA scorer

  • rande3p

    excuses excuses … kobe kills him all day.. ridiculous hating going on here… I love Tmac, AI, Vince… none could hang with Kobe other than a season here & there

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    ridiculous hating? where is my opinion on McGrady / Kobe anywhere on this page.
    .
    The ridiculous part of this is you Lakers fans who got so defensive when someone said “arguably”

  • Oldtimer

    You sound like an amateur athlete/wannabe. As grow older you have to maintain your body or gives out. McGrady went the way of many who just partied more than worked in the off season. Plain and simple. You don’t have to know him. You don’t have to read between the lines. Us old timers know what time it is.

  • bike

    C’mon T-Mac. The only thing you are sure of if you played w/ Shaq is that you two would remain as*hole buddies? Meaning that you would have gladly relinquished the Alpha-dog position to Shaq?….didn’t think so…..

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    never gave my opinion. read better. then come back.

  • Steven310

    At the risk of opening up a can of worms… Iverson was better than Kobe from 1996-2006 during the Philly years and he was arguably better than him from 2006-08 during the Denver years.

  • shockexchange

    You’re not opening up a can of worms at all. Of the young guns from Horry Jr’s era – A.I., Pierce, Vince Carter, Garnett, McGrady – the Shock Exchange would put him somewhere in the middle of the pack.

  • Inquiring Mind

    nbk… is that you Tracy?

  • Steven310

    Iverson had back-to-back seasons in 2004-05 and 2005-06 where he was averaging at least 30 ppg, 7 apg, 3 rpg, and 2 spg. Only 6 players throughout the history of the game have posted 30 ppg and 7 assists a game for an entire season (MJ, Iverson, Oscar, Lebron, Archibald, and Wade).

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    LOL – as you grow older, you also get hurt. McGrady’s back gave out on him.

    .
    2005-06
    In the beginning of the 2005-2006 season, Tracy complained about multiple back spasms and missed eight games because of the injury. In January of the same season, T-Mac faced the Denver Nuggets and was taken out of the game on a stretcher because of severe back spasms. He missed five games due to the re-occurring injury. The Rockets couldn’t win games without him and missed the playoffs that season.

    .

    2006-07
    Once again, back spasms prevent him from playing in seven games near the start of the season. When returning, T-Mac said that he was not the same anymore. He stated that the pain in his back slowed him down and prevented him from being as explosive as he used to be.

    .
    .
    Right, you have to maintain your body. If that’s possible. Sometimes, it isn’t.

  • The Seed

    T-Mac never made this statement when Kobe was playing against him. T-Mac knows his career was jacked up.

    McGrady finished in the top eight in the MVP voting six times from
    2000-01 through 2007-08. However, he never won the award, and his best
    finish was fourth place in both 2001-02 and 2002-03. He was never
    regarded as “THE GREAT” player you state.

    Starting with the 2005-06 season, McGrady frequently had problems
    with both his back and his knees. In his final four full seasons with
    the Rockets, McGrady played in just 219 out of a possible 328 regular
    season games, plus he missed the entire 2009 playoffs.

    On the one hand, McGrady was somewhat infamous for never leading a
    team beyond the first round of the playoffs. During his time in
    Houston, the only time the team advanced to the conference semifinals
    was 2008-09, a season when McGrady missed 47 regular season games and
    all of the playoffs due to an injury to his left knee.

    T-MAC trying to make news, when he left Vince for greener pastures. Why not stay with Carter, T-MAC, because you wanted your own team. #HYPOCRITE

  • True NBA Knowledge

    You’re talking apples to oranges. Most injuries occur when the body has been doing too much work and it’s the bodies way of saying “sit the f down”. McGrady back came about from bad training practices and not correcting in time to strengthen his back. His downfall comes from not doing his homework when he was younger by seeking the best trainers out there as he was probably like most youngens who think their bodies are indestructable till it’s too late. McGrady went the way of most athletes who don’t do the “work” to make sure his engine ran past 65k miles.

  • berkamore

    I know Isiah Thomas wasn’t a popular guy but he was better than Stock ( and I like Stock). Just saying…………..

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    good one. since i’m out here tooting tracy mcgrady’s horn as arguably better for 4 whole years and everything…

  • The Seed

    Great points, T-MAC career is not even better than Vince’s.

  • The Seed

    Wrong, Kobe motiviated Shaq, that’s why he hated Kobe. Go research young buck.

  • Bruce Wayne

    “He allowed his body to deteriorate”? Were you at his side over the years to document everything?

  • LakeShow

    Nope.

    I shouldn’t even grace this with a reply that’s how far off you are.

    AI was not nearly the defender nor was his efficiency or overall game on KB’s level.

  • berkamore

    T-Mac’s argument is actually interesting, he’s saying that he and Shaq could have done interesting things together.

    Now, Bryant is talented but consider this. Shaq played with three very good wing players: Penny Hardaway, Kobe Bryant and Dwayne Wade. ( I’m leaving out LBJ the Celts because Shaq was already washed up by then).

    Shaq took every one of those guys to the Finals and won with two of them, Bryant and Wade. Now, I am not saying that Kobe didn’t contribute but I am willing to bet that Shaq, during his Los Angeles prime, would have done as much if not more with a number of very good wing players (in their primes of course): Penny Hardaway (if healthy), Kobe Bryant, Allen Iverson, Ray Allen, Tracy McGrady, Grant Hill (b4 his injury), Paul Pierce or even Vince Carter for a brief time period.

    What i am getting at is that Shaq in his prime was a truly unique physical specimen (combination of size, speed and strength) whereas good wing players are easier to come by………………..

  • Saleem Rainman

    oh you shut up too.

  • berkamore

    One thing I don’t get. T-Mac is accused of leaving Toronto because he wanted his own team. Now you got to remember that Orlando signed Grant Hill that same summer and Hill (I know people forgot) was clearly the better player. I don’t see how that would have been T-Mac’s team.

    Besides I seem to remember that Orlando actually had Duncan down there for a visit (he was a free agent) before he decided to stay put. Not sure how that would have been T-Mac’s team with Timmy onboard.

  • shockexchange

    Fair point. When Horry Jr was surrounded by “Exceptionally more talent than the rest of the L” his defense and efficiency were unmatched. Otherwise, not so much. *Welp*

  • The Seed

    Grant Hill was downhill by then, man. Really GRANT HILL. LOL

  • pposse

    bragging about getting out of the first rd when your up 3-1 is a classic example

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    “in my years in the NBA, i didn’t know too many people who bust their ass in practice”
    .
    kind of what i was trying to say, he didn’t work the hardest. but he didn’t coast at some unheard of level of coasting.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    is a classic example of …. arrogance.
    .
    says nothing about whether or not he has a winner’s attitude.
    .
    and the fact that he got THAT Orlando team up 3-1 on THAT Detroit team…if anything, points towards him being a winning player. Considering the players on each roster.

  • The Seed

    DUDE, you need to go rewatch the WEST Finals and what Pop had to say after each match up. LOL, this thread is getting funny. Ray, AI, GH and T-MAC, PP and VC can’t compare to KOBE. Go ask MJ, he would tell yall. LOL, Kobe is considered a top 10 player ever, with some having him top 7 and moving up like me.

    Ray, AI, T-Mac, GH, PP and VC are not even in top 25 ALL TIME. GO WATCH BASKETBALL.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    yeah, you should have just ignored that nonsense

  • LakeShow

    He put up better stats than AI ever did in a season with less talent than AI had on his teams…

    **Kinda just proved you wrong there…

  • http://www.slamonline.com/ Nick Tha Quick

    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9616069/the-unfortunate-tale-t-mac
    Nice article that puts a lot of things together. Don’t care much for Bill Simmons but there’s a lot of interesting info in there on T-Mac’s career going way back.

  • shockexchange

    A.I. took a mediocre team to the finals against “Shaq and the Pips.” That is all.

  • Saleem Rainman

    Grant hill was in NO WAY on the downhill in the year 2000. If it werent for injuries that was.

  • LakeShow

    Yeah good call.

    Good wing’s are easy to come by.

    I bet Kobe would have won more with Kareem Abdul Jabbar as his teams center too.

    He probably would have won wayyyy more with Kareem.

    Man, let’s think about how many titles Kobe would have racked up with KAP instead of Shaq…

    Or not…

  • Dex613

    Go home T-Mac you’re drunk!

  • berkamore

    Not saying Bryant can’t play. But without Shaq and Pau, your boy would only be another selfish gunner who couldn’t get it done. (didn’t he miss the playoffs after Shaq was traded? Yeah, thought so. LOL)

  • LakeShow

    The 76ers had Theo Ratliff and Dikembe Mutombo at the same time though…

    Pippen is a top 25 player of all time….

    Shaq and the Pips sounds like a super team….

  • berkamore

    I actually would have loved to see that. Kobe shooting wayyy too much…………Cap would have been apoplectic.

    In theory, they could probably done nice things as long as they played as a TEAM with Cap as the No1 option. And I don’t think it’s something your boy would be comfortable with.

    But the better question is would Cap have been able to stand Kobe? He didn’t suffer fools gladly, that’s for sure.

    I just don’t see them coexisting………….Cap is too old school for that kind of crap. (overshooting, me first instead of team, the unbelievable arrogance…remember that Cap is a John Wooden guy, they play ball the right way)

  • LakeShow

    They would have won 10 chips easily.

    Hakeem and Kobe would have won 15 chips. IN A ROW.

  • LakeShow

    Think about Kobe with Wilt… Wow… 20 chips?

  • berkamore

    If your boy would defer to those guys. You may be right, who knows?

    But knowing Kobe, he probably would have pissed off even Hakeem, who is a pretty calm guy…..

    No, I don’t see your boy coexisting with any good center for ten seasons. Good offensive players need the ball………..to be any good. LOL.

  • robb

    lol

  • berkamore

    Not likely. Wilt needed…………….the BALL. And Kobe is a black hole. So, I would give them five years tops…..if that.

  • pposse

    no winner would say that.

  • LakeShow

    How do black holes lead their position in assists per game?

    How do black holes win back to back championships as the best player?

    They don’t.

    Start trying to view things objectively.

    They don’t just hand out 15+ all star appearances, 14+ All NBA teams, 5 championships, and 3r or 4th or whatever, all time in points to anyone…

    You kinda gotta earn it… ya know?

  • berkamore

    Yeah, Grant Hill averaged almost 26 points, 6.6 boards and 5.2 assists the season he left Detroit for Orlando but hey…………..

  • berkamore

    Well said.

  • LakeShow

    What % of players co-exsist in NBA history over 10 years?

    3-5% maybe?

    Kobe and Shaq were together for 8 years lol…

    Kobe and Pau have been together for 6 years…

    I just don’t think you really know what you’re talking about.

  • berkamore

    LakeShow…………got it. Should have known…………..ROFL.

    Objectively, Shaq and Pau. If those two are not around, Kobe is just another selfish gunner.

    And he knows it too. Why do you think he was so involved in trying to retain Dwight? (Although he just couldn’t bring himself to actually make Dwight happy during the season because your boy is so self centered)

    And well, when you do something for a LOOOONG time, your body of work usually looks impressive. Optical illusion……LOL.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Really? Well, I guess I lost my copy of the international book of actions taken exclusively by winners. Damn.

  • pposse

    without shaq and pau kobe drops 81 pts in a single game …who cares if he’s a selfish gunner or not..he is till better at gunning than any of those could even dream of

  • rhys

    if u watched him u would see come playoff time he gave his all and was always the best player on court..just had a lot of bad luck

  • LakeShow

    Holy sh*t you’re mentallly ill…

    You also feel the same way about Magic right? and Bird? And MJ? right?

    Just want to make sure you’re at least consistently retarded.

    Why does Jamal Crawford not have the same accolades?

    Don’t actually come back with “answers.”

    This is rhetorical just to show how stupid you are.

  • Rashad HandzMcgee Clark

    T-Mac just happy to be back in the spotlight for something…. Off running his mouth

  • berkamore

    Well, your take is interesting but kind of flawed/naive.

    Free advice: finding something that actually works is the hardest thing ever (dig up the percentage of movies that make any dough, the percentage of TV shows that get picked up, the percentage of albums that sell well, or the percentage of new products, in any field, for that matter that recoup their investments and weep)

    Now, when you find that precious something, you hold on to it. But your boy doesn’t understand that. You play on a loaded Lakers team with Shaq? (Like that happens EVERYDAY) His reaction:” F….Shaq, I’m gonna shot the ball.” Very smart.

    Magic’s take on playing with Cap?” I’m gonna make sure that Cap is happy.” but then again, Magic is smart.

    8 years? No, Kobe became a starter in his second or third year. So it’s more like five six years so you are the one who doesn’t even know your history as a Laker fan.

    And those two should have lasted 10 years or more. How long have Timmy and Tony been at it? Your boy is just a spoiled child with “exceptionally more talent than the rest of the League” (to quote the Shock Exchange). And he fancies himself as a latter day Jordan, really laughable……..

  • rhys

    yes they missed the playoff but kobe missed almost 20 games due to injury dumbass and obv they were not making it without him

  • Olayinka Kazeem

    The same T- Mac that couldn’t bare being in Vince Carter’s shadow in Toronto? Yeah right! I also saw someone say A.I and Shaq would’ve bee a great look. that’s actually a a joke. Allen Iverson took 27 shots a game. His ego was out of this world. He could never co-exist with Shaq.

  • Olayinka Kazeem

    P had never won a playoff game without Kobe. Shaq NEEDED Kobe for that run.

  • pposse

    some of yall just went full R on this thread..the only one that compares to kobe as a wing from the generation tmac is talking about is AI..thats it

  • Saleem Rainman

    yh i know, and im with u, but he also DID say practicing was overrated and he didnt know what it was good for…

  • berkamore

    Yeah, we all know that Magic was a gunner. That’s what he is known for. Goodness, this is pathetic.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Lol he is talking to Jay Mohr. I’m not going to take him too seriously. When you are talking to someone who exaggerates everything he says, it’s understandable to start exaggerating yourself. It did seem playful in the interview anyway

  • berkamore

    I am not saying that it doesn’t go both ways but Shaq needed a good wing for that run.

    Replace Kobe with any number of good wings in Shaq’s prime and I bet the end result is not that different.

  • berkamore

    Not like they were gonna win anyway so who cares?

  • berkamore

    Maybe. And people like different things about the games Some like gunners other like other things. It depends……..

    I respect people who can score but i depends when. (and no clutch time is not at the end of the game and nice analysis by Abbott, I believe showed that Bryant was NOT clutch)

  • pposse

    seriously i despised kobe, but dropping 81 in a game is not something to just shake off. NONE of those “gunners” you mentioned could do what he DID while Kobe could do everything all them has done. He is just better the better ball player than the any other gunner you gotta atleast give him that.

  • Evan Boland

    This is just another case of people watching the game and being able to come to general conclusions. Larry was cold-blooded. Kobe is arrogant. Lebron is self-conscious. Dwight is childish. Mike is a winner. T-mac’s a loser.

  • berkamore

    I said that before and I will repeat it, Bryant is a good player, a very good player indeed.

    But I am convinced that if some other good wing player had been on those Lakers team when Shaq was in his prime, the result would not have been that different.

  • pposse

    im not going to deny that, but Kobe with or without Shaq was a better ball player than all other wings in the game at the time other than AI.

  • LakeShow

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Those are called opinions Evan. Opinions aren’t facts. And….. “Most people” don’t know sh*t about basketball. So lets not let a general opinion be your brain. Think for yourself.

  • pposse

    Garnett was a different position – Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett, Iverson in that order is my top 5 post MJ and pre 2005 (so not including lebron, wade, etc.). Garnett would have leap frogged to second imo if he was in the playoffs in 08 to defend his first ring. That knee injury he suffered changed the course of basketball history..Kobe may not have ever won 2 more rings if that happened and Garnett would have been labeled the better PF than Duncan.

  • berkamore

    You may be right. Was Kobe better? Matter of opinion. But those guys I mentioned were, in my opinion, good enough to get the job done.

  • LakeShow

    27.8 to be exact.

    Kobe scored 35.4 ppg on 27.2 Shots per game

    AI scored 31.4 on 27.8

  • berkamore

    You are back? Why are you arguing with a retard?

  • LakeShow

    Ohhh believe me…

    I meant to post to pposse, and accidentally posted on yours and immediately changed that to three periods rather than a conversation starter.

  • pposse

    but its really not a matter of opinion..on the one hand iverson was dropping 30ppg in the playoffs second to only MJ at the time, but then on the other Kobe was pretty lethal and didn’t get to fully ‘blossom’ playing with shaq, but ultimately got rings and was definately a contributor to the whole thing.

  • pposse

    im not saying iverson was better, just comparable. Their careers went a lot different. Kobe wasn’t the only ‘alpha’ on his team which i guess didn’t let him flourish like kobe would have liked to. I was a big iverson fan but i literally stopped watching bball when Kobe and Shaq started winning…it was just obvious to me the lakers had the best center and best wing in the game

  • LakeShow

    Stopped watching?!?

    Damn, for how much it sounds like you hate the Laker’s and KB, thanks for standing up for the truth on here.

  • berkamore

    AI is my guy. I respect that guy, love him. Still replay the practice rant from time to time. My favorite part: “How the hell I am supposed to make my teammates better by practicing” just fell out of my chair. But bygones.

    As for Kobe, if playing with Shaq was a drawback, then I am………done. You play with a guy who demands a LOT of attention and that made your life TOUGHER ? Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeesus..ROFL

  • pposse

    its one of the reasons i look back at kobe and shaq and kind of shake my head. As a fan of another team i was happy but now looking back its a little disapointing. Kobe sustained excellence for so long. Shaq by like 09 could have been replaced some how some way by other all stars who would have been Kobe’s backup, if only Shaq wanted to relinquish the ‘leader’ title to Kobe in 05. I get where Kobe was coming from, at that point in his career people literally said that he could “never be MJ” bc of how stacked his team was, and Bean is the guy who likes to prove his doubters wrong at all costs. To me its a shame, not sure how Laker fans look at it. At like 15 yrs old i thought they were going to win 8 championships after the 2nd one and the Shaq comparisons to Bill Russell/Wilt would have been there as well as Kobe to MJ. The truth is that Kobe was in line for a lot more rings than 6 but at the same time he was young, proud, and stubborn, nonetheless he had a great work ethic and earned all his chips anyone who says otherwise never really watched bball they just watched the stat board.

  • Conor

    You mean 2009? There is no way Boston beats LA with a healthy Ariza and a moderately healthy Bynum. In either 2008 or 2009.

    It took them six without the aforementioned two in 2008, and that was with Game II being one of the worst officiated games in the history of the finals & Jackson playing the bench for half of the third and fourth quarters each.

    Garnett was better than Kobe until 2002, though. imo

  • Conor

    *Jackson’s inept decision-making which catalyzed Boston’s Game IV comeback.

  • pposse

    Kobe was young and dumb, Shaq was immature too – they both wanted to be the guy who went down as better than MJ (the best) when both of them (if they played their cards correctly) could have been thought of as the better player. Iverson was everyone’s favorite including mine, everyone other than the powers that be wanted to see him win

  • berkamore

    That crossover on Ty Lue in the corner during game 1 of the Finals in 2001? (AI dropped 48….smh)

    The only game the Lakers lost in the playoffs. Gotta remember what a monster Shaq was in that postseason. It’s just funny how quickly people forget……………..

  • pposse

    Garnett was just that glue guy though, i believed in him and the team. Don’t forget they won the first year they were put together, and yes i meant 09. Garnett more than any of the guys i mentioned other than Duncan was the guy who elevated his teammates more than anyone else. People wanna talk about Pierce was the finals MVP, well that team was going to game 7′s on the regular without Garnett. I also believe in momentum and players mentalities limiting while elevating others. IF the Celtics get to the finals in 09 who has the mental edge? The Celtics imo over the Lakers.

  • pposse

    shaq was straight up stupid good. Even when he went to Miami, he relinquised the ‘go to guy’ role to just being dominant. A 2nd yr D Wade (who was instantly my favorite player after that yam over Jermaine O’neil in the playoffs the year before) twisted his ribs in game 5 and they lost to the Pistons. Then the next yr Miami wins the whole thing. Shaq could have easily been a main contributor to back to back titles. The Spurs went to 7 games and an exciting 4th quarter to beat that Piston team. You gotta believe a healthy Wade would have handled tony parker or ginobli and Shaq would have relished the opportunity to go at duncan.

  • berkamore

    Well said. For a while, Shaq was the only guy in the League who could make ANY team he was on an instant contender for two reasons. LIke you said, he was stupid good AND he would attract talent (people actually wanted to play with him)

    Case in point the Miami team that won in 2006, most were guys who just wanted a title so they went there and got the job done.

    And you are right, I would have loved to see two of my favorite players, Shaq against Timmy in the Finals………….

  • YepDunDidItAgainFolk

    AGREED AGREED AGREED AGREED AGREED… 1) thank you for recognizing Shaq was a beast (no one gives him props because people want to hype up Kobe so much, causing them to lose sense of the past and obscure the actual events and reasons why Lakers won…don’t give me that greatest duo thing or they worked as a team. People only do this to undermine Shaq and sneak give Kobe credit for the rings. Stats (individual and team), observance, and basketball logic points in Shaq’s favor easillllly.

    2) Thank you for giving Garnett props. Just as the East had a lot of players who had bad teams but sick players who could have easily been in discussion for all-time greats if blessed with a superbly talented teams (TMAC, Iverson, Vince Carter, Ray Allen even if they had Shaq), so too did the West with Garnett, but to a lesser extent. Give Garnett Duncan’s spurs, and you might’ve had the same production…just might have. Duncan did post more, but garnett could handle the rock…both were phenomenal and dominant. But, it is a credit to Duncan that he meshed with players and kept his ego. I think Garnett would’ve done the same b/c he, as heavily advertised and chronicled, has a great appreciation for winning. Sprewell and Cassel vs. Tony Parker and ginobli might go Spre in 2 on 2…but overall team dynamics and team setting, you be the judge.

    Thank you

  • Busta213

    Easily the silliest post I’ve seen on slam.com!

  • pposse

    dont forget about that pj brown dunk all over your boy tho at the end of the third qtr…the tides started turning with that one

  • pposse

    apoplectic – overcome with anger; extremely indignant:i had to do it

  • pposse

    shaq was the most ridiculous thing to happen to nba basketball in the history of the game. If there was a way to get all the greats into a time machine, go back in time and kidnap them in their primes and then take them all to a basketball court and have them play a season or playoff. I’d take MJ and Shaq and the other team can have all the other greats..and you know what im still putting my house and my parents house down on a bet that MJ and Shaq take care of bidness easily. MJ as arrogant as he was was not stupid, he would have let shaq touch the ball every play and have him just dunk on everyone every single time. The other 3 players would be straight up role players like Rodman, Kukoc and Ron Harper on my team.

    And damn KG sure did get the short end of the stick, he could have easily competed for a couple of those rings post Shaq Kobe ‘duo’ with some sort of legit teams around him. I just really think he could have taken out Duncan atleast once or twice in that time

  • berkamore

    Cap could be difficult (love the guy but let’s be real) and since Kobe “wasn’t going to back down” that would have been interesting to say the least.

  • pposse

    i know im veering a little off subject here but this is the thing i don’t get….Kobe has always been the guy with crazy skills/talent who always (when on good teams) has great big men and was (and rightfully so at times) labeled a selfish type of player because he didn’t defer to the big men…but on the other hand…there is Lebron who hopped on a loaded team with really no go to big man…so Lebron and rightfully so is the centerpiece. My question is, what makes the world believe that Lebron would just so easily defer to a great big man? He played with Shaq at one point in his career, did he ever defer to Shaq? I mean did he ever win by deferring to Wade? But yet here everyone claims they know Lebron would defer to Andrew Bynum and Pau Gasol. I dont buy it. IMO if your the best player on the team, you shouldn’t have to ‘defer’ to anyone. You should be the one demanding the attention and operating in that fashion. What player has actually ‘deferred’ to other good but not great players? I just dont get it.

    EDIT – not to sound like a hypocrite cause i know in a previous post i stated that MJ would defer to Shaq if they were both able to play with each other in their prime – the hypothetical situation i spoke of was against creme of the crop competition and tbh i dont know if MJ can honestly say he is the better ball player than prime Shaq

  • pposse

    If Kobe got to play with KG like they were talking about at one point back in the mid 00′s they might have still been racking up rings to this day.

  • YepDunDunGot’emAgain

    Agreed Agreed Agreed again…except for one thing. MJ and Shaq, yes. But, idk if Rodman was a role player. He was a straight beast and that trio of Pip, Jordan, Rodman was too insane.

    I do think though LeBron/Prime TMAC and Duncan/KG with role players could go against Jordan and Shaq equivalent role players would be close, though. I don’t really see any other matchup that could go against Jordan and Shaq. LeBron on Jordan and vice versa (objectively speaking) would be close. Jordan, yes, could get buckets on LeBron, but LeBron could get buckets on Jordan. LeBron jumpshot is ridiculous (primarily based on his decision making in games, most likely not in vaccum), so you can’t leave him open except for like the 3 games the Spurs did, which statistically was aberrant. Duncan/Garnett would force Shaq to stretch out, thus, leaving paint open for LeBron on post if need be. Additionally, LeBron would easily facilitate…but, Jordan is Jordan and Shaq is Shaq, so that would be close.

    I think that would be great.

  • Yep

    It also depends on what LeBron-mindset you get that day – a Mavericks series type LeBron (which after watching his whole career has shown up very few, but immensely magnified by the media games) or the more dominant, attacking LeBron. You know what you would get with Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, but I feel LeBron would be the X factor, so to speak in that situation.

  • pposse

    thats why i can’t stand lebron, he doesn’t keep that ‘mind set’ but attains it at times, and people gloss over it cause his PER is awesome. He just never came across as the guy who is the hungriest on the court.

  • berkamore

    I think LeBron has more of a Magic Johnson type of game. I mean, if anything I sometimes feel that Bron passes the ball too much, In Cleveland, if somebody was open, even a scrub, boom, Bron would get him the ball.

    Now I feel that ‘Bron has gotten better at picking his spots to dominate. (‘Bron played with Shaq but Shaq himself said he was a role player by then)

    Kobe, on the other had, will just shoot and shoot and shoot. Prime Shaq is open? F…. him, I am shooting. Karl Malone is open? F….him, I am shooting. Eddie Jones? Van Excel, Rick Fox, Horace Grant, Gary Payton, Glen Rice, Isiah Rider, Pau Gasol, Dwight Howard? F…..em, F….em all, I AM SHOOTING. (As you may have noticed, all those guys can/ could play a little ball)

    And catch some of the old games if you can, Lakers, Celtics, Pistons, they shared the wealth. The ball MOVED. I mean, ALL those guys could actually play. (McHale of the Celtics dropped 56 points in a game and Bird dropped 60 like 10 days later).

    I guess my point is that great players find a way to coexist IF they play as a TEAM. Move the ball, hit the open man, ride the hot hand, anybody can have a big game………………and if somebody should emerge as the Leader, it would be because his teammates naturally defer to him (and you best believe that players KNOW who can play) and not because a guy just shoots and shoots………………..

  • pposse

    True well said, i really need to see again how these old school teams used to play. There’s something just more relatable to the way the game was played back then and in the 90′s to nowadays. Like if i step on the court and play recreationally everyone on the court is playing in that style, and not like the way the game is played nowadays. Nowadays they make the game all complicated. Basketball in its simplest form = purest form to me. That’s why when guys like Rodman said Lebron would be average back in the day, I dont completely dismiss the claim. One of Lebron’s greatest assets is his strength, but back in the day if you were strong they would just hold you down with their hands, arms, even clothesline you if need be, and just the overall way the players complain about every call nowadays i can kind of see where guys like Rodman are coming from.

  • berkamore

    Recently, the closest thing we’ve had to that mindset was the 2004 Pistons that won the chip. They played as a TEAM and MOVED the ball. Or like their coach Larry Brown used to say, they played the RIGHT way.

    That’s what I like instead of watching four stagnant guys and the fifth one going one on one and hoist 25 shots but hey……that’s me. LOL.

    Interestingly enough, it’s not a model that has been embraced around the League (especially by the small market teams that can’t attract superstars) It seems to still be considered some sort of aberration. Go figure.

  • Shifty

    We talking about practice?

  • pposse

    not you personally, but what tmac said to the press (was what my prev. post was referring to)

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    The Shaq Kobe thing had to be broken up for various reasons. It’s how it broke up that was so bad. Not that it did. That was probably going to have to happen with both guys combining to make over 80% of the salary cap

  • billetdoux

    lets be real

    if vince carter, ray allen, or even allen iverson had the Shaq Diesel in their primes… they wouldve won a couple rings.

    but TMAC and shaq had that Dynasty for 6 rings. destiny is all ready determined

  • UIIIkekdi

    Lets be real

    If vince carter, ray allen, and iverson had Big daddy diesel and buss leading the way they’d all had 3 rings minimum

    tmac easily could got 3 rings with SHaqFu

  • speedy

    Hehehe… young buck.
    You don’t even know how old I am and that I am watching and following the NBA since ’92.
    All Kobe did was complainig to the media, that shaq was to fat or can’t shoot free throws. And that never changed.

  • speedy

    ‘I get where Kobe was coming from, at that point in his career people
    literally said that he could “never be MJ” bc of how stacked his team
    was, and Bean is the guy who likes to prove his doubters wrong at all
    costs.’
    And he didn’t win a chip until his team was stacked again.

  • Pedestrian Nightmare

    the sixers never had Theo and Dikembe at the same time…

  • Steven310

    Yep. Iverson was definitely better from that period.

    Be thankful that I`m taking time to respond to your ridiculous reply because your argument is absurd. Only a delusional person would believe that Kobe was better than Iverson from 1996-2006.

    LMAOOOOOO. At no point during his career has Kobe ever been a great defender in the nba. He`s an average defender who has had trouble staying in front of quick/fast guards his entire career. The only offensive or defensive category Kobe has excelled in consistently is scoring. He`s not above average in rebounding, assisting, recording steals nor any other statistical category.

    Yep Kobe has a higher shooting percentage. And? Shooting efficiency is not just dependent on form, it`s partly contingent on the talent by which players are surrounded. Surrounding players with more talent naturally increases their chances of having a good field goal %. I didn`t think this was too difficult a concept to grasp. I don`t understand how efficiency proves that Kobe was better since a more advantageous situation with him being surrounded by more talent was conducive to higher efficiency.

    Perhaps you think Kobe is better because he averaged 2 more rebounds a game with an 8 inch height advantage since he doesn`t have an advantage in any other individual, statistical category.

  • bigdaddy

    Now I know what it feels like to be out of the 1 round of the playoffs (tmac voice)

  • Steven310

    Oh?!… Interesting. Enlighten me then. What season did Kobe have less talent than Iverson compared to all the teams Iverson was on lol? And which season did Kobe average better stats than Iverson ever did which would be better than 30 and 7?

    I`ll wait….

  • Conor

    From a purely talent-based perspective, I believe Garnett is superior to Duncan. Duncan didn’t need to elevate his teammates much further before 2003. And even then, they were naturally better than the players Garnett was burdened with. Finally, there was Pop.

    The Celtics played a completely different team in 2008. Bryant, Bynum, Gasol, and Odom were one year younger, Farmar, Brown, Vujacic, Powell, Mbenga, and even Walton played much better… Why? Because Jackson was afforded the ability to hide their flaws more often.

    Do you understand the difference between having 2009 Trevor Ariza – aka, Michael Cooper II – guard you versus Vladimir Radmanovic? Between 2009 Andrew Bynum and Chris Mihm?

  • Evan Boland

    I do. And I like to think you do, too. But T-Mac, he’s stated himself. Kobe inspired this dude to work harder. He said it. If he had Kobe’s mindset, do you doubt (obviously without injuries) he would have been a lot better than Kobe?

  • Evan Boland

    He was just as good, (if not better in your eyes), without working half as hard.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    If Kobe is your measuring stick, of course he falls short. Nobody is disputing whether or not he had Kobe’s work ethic. Slow down.
    .
    And yes, I doubt he would have been better than Kobe. A brain is a brain. Tracy McGrady doesn’t have Kobe’s brain.

  • Mike From Spain

    Isiah Thomas (insert other PG here if you want though), MJ, Lebron, Duncan, Shaq… vs anyone else

  • Mike From Spain

    Duncan comes accross as more level headed, regular in his output, and generally sound in his game , ‘the big fundamental’, a great system player. I don’t know too much about his personality, he seems more subdued. Also, his game has a serene classic austere elegance to it.

    Garnett is all heart, does everything, wants to utterly crush his opponents, trash talks, and tells off his teammates but is also known for being a good teammate. It is not a knock on his game, but Garnett’s edge is more about the intangibles. In a situation where his teammates waver, Garnett spurs them on (no pun intended)

    I guess it is a matter of fit or tastes. Some days I prefer Duncan, other days I prefer Garnett.

  • Mike From Spain

    Sometimes it isn’t. But a given injury is not proof that it wasn’t possible to prevent said injury. More investigation into the cause of the injury and the training practices of T-Mac would be needed for your mentioning two bouts of back spasms to be proof of what you want to prove with it. It could just as easily be proof of the opposite (that he got injured because he did not take the right steps to prevent the injuries).

    I am not quite sure why, I don’t have any hard evidence, but people like T-Mac and Iverson seem (I say seem) to have had less commitment to maintain their bodies as people such as Kobe.

  • Mike From Spain

    Or alternatively, they’d have killed each other after the third season together

  • Interdico Scriptor

    It’s easy to say now w/ 20/20 hindsight about Kobe this and that. But TMac was the maan, ditto Iverson, ditto Carter (to degrees). At the time they were better than Kobe. Iverson was better then. McGrady was better then. Carter was… no he wasn’t but anyway. Kobe has been peak for ages, but he had equals who outshone him. You can say he had a better career, but don’t take away from those guys in their prime.

  • Interdico Scriptor

    Totally.

  • Interdico Scriptor

    Sorry Lake. I gotta go with Steven310 there. We’re saying this w/ all due respect.

  • Interdico Scriptor

    what?? says who?

  • Interdico Scriptor

    dude. Dikembe was done by then. He had no O. He had AAron Mckey and that other dufus center dude… and ESnow… C’mon… versus your guy. Iverson killed Bryant then…

  • Interdico Scriptor

    Pippen is better than LeBron

  • Interdico Scriptor

    Shock. With all due respect. Are you schooled? Is English your first language?

  • Interdico Scriptor

    Dude. Have you always been like this?

  • Interdico Scriptor

    You know what Lake. I agree w/ him. I didn’t stop watching ball but i stopped watching the Lakers. They were tossers about it (winning) So, Iverson was a revelation in comparison. And you can’t tell me you’ve ever seen anyone put their whole body/heart into a game like Iverson did… EVER. I remember game one started, and they were showing the Laker injuries, then they showed Iversons’ … which was literally, top to toel; like 6-8 things And dude just played his heart out. He was knocked to the floor again and again. I’ve never seen anything like it in my whole life.

    SO yeah, Kobe had a better career than Iverson/Tmac, but you can’t take anything away from us who were rooting for the little guys
    AND yes I know McGradys’ not little.

  • King David

    Pat Garrity > Shaq lmaooo

  • pposse

    i would love to see a prime pippen get a chance at locking up lebron. There is no one in the league right now that has the body type of Pippen, tall lanky, but strong and the defensive mindset that Pippen brought to the game. I thought that Corey Brewer could be that guy, coming from Florida and playing with Joakim Noah on a really good defensive oriented college ball team but it hasn’t panned out that way for him. He has the physical tools, atleast appearance wise, but idk about his athletiscim and the mindset is definately not there.

  • pposse

    its funny how things work out. That was the basketball gods slapping kobe around in his supreme prime form (losing first rd playoffs when he is dropping 34 ppg and going on 10 plus games of 40ppg etc etc) but then rewarding him for continuing to work harder than the rest. I never said kobe wasn’t an idiot for that but he so much as admitted that was exactly what he was thinking. There were quotes out there even recently where he specifically stated he wanted to win rings without shaq.

  • pposse

    looking back at the situation i dont necessarily agree with that. The cap situation was one thing, but didn’t shaq already have a 100 million dollar deal that shipped him to the lakers? And just the fact that Shaq willingly took a pay cut for Antoine Walker on Pat Riley’s sell, when we all know that Dr. Busse could have sold Shaq the same way. I mean yes the money issue was something that would have needed to get sorted out, but I still believe that Shaq would have bended for Kobe had Kobe been a little more humble. Them two just genuinely didn’t like each other at that point in their careers..but literally the next year Shaq took more of a step back and let Wade be the best player in Miami. If he’d do it for Wade, talking strictly basketball reasons, then why wouldn’t he for Kobe? It was just a complete ego thing and hurt feelings imo

  • TR

    He was referring to Gladys Knight and the Pips i think

  • shockexchange

    With 4 guys guarding Shaq, the Shock Exchange coulda shot 75% from the field on that Lakers squad. Don’t compare Horry to MJ or A.I. A better comparison would be Robert Horry. *Welp*

  • shockexchange

    http://clicky.me/7VvE … That is all.

  • thebossman15

    dude he had no work ethic hes admitted to never being in the weight room and not putting in extra work, is tmac paying u for this praise? you all up on his knob boy

  • thebossman15

    clown [kloun] Show IPA
    noun
    1.
    a comic performer, as in a circus, theatrical production, or the like, who wears an outlandish costume and makeup and entertains by pantomiming common situations or actions in exaggerated or ridiculous fashion

    ie. SEE STEVEN310′S COMMENTS

  • straight cake

    what are you talking about smh:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rOnFc6eUBQ

  • thebossman15

    clown [kloun] Show IPA
    noun
    1.
    a comic performer, as in a circus, theatrical production, or the like, who wears an outlandish costume and makeup and entertains by pantomiming common situations or actions in exaggerated or ridiculous fashion, by juggling or tumbling, etc.

    IE. SEE STEVEN 310′S COMMENTS!!!

    Im just gonna assume you didnt watch the lakers after shaq and before pau came cuz that supporting cast kobe had is arguably the worst of all time u fool..and kobe had a season of 35.5.5 and a season of 31.5.4
    you’ve just been enlightened

  • Steven310

    All you did was prove my point that injuries can have several different causes most of them being out of the athlete`s control. Just because a player gets injured doesn`t automatically imply that they didn`t put in the necessary work or that they were slackers.

    I`m not talking apples to oranges. I`m talking apples to apples, oranges to oranges, fruits to fruits.

    “McGrady back came about from bad training practices and not correcting in time to strengthen his back. His downfall comes from not doing his homework when he was younger by seeking the best trainers out there as he was probably like most youngens who think their bodies are indestructable till it’s too late. McGrady went the way of most athletes who don’t do the “work” to make sure his engine ran past 65k miles.”

    This is all speculation because you don`t know the cause(s) of his injuries lol.

    You don`t know what his training methods were during the off season and regular season. You don`t know if his training methods contributed to any of his injuries. Not even physicians no the exact cause(s) of injuries that they treat all they can do is make an educated based on the info that`s presented to them. FYI injuries usually have multiple sources not just one cause. So I`m curious to know, where are you getting all of this information from? What do you mean when you say that he didn`t correct “bad training practices” in time to strengthen his back? That doesn`t make any sense. What are these “bad training practices” that supposedly led to back injuries.

    Organizations provide player`s with a training staff so who are these elite trainers outside of the teams he`s played for that he was supposed to be seeking?

    Were you with McGrady 24/7 during his career and saw that he never worked out. Were you personally there and saw him not participate in any training camp or preseason or pro-am during the off season? Were you with him when he never went to practice? Were you with him when he passed by the weight room every day instead of lifting? Are you inferring that throughout McGrady`s career he never lifted a pound? Were you with him when he was doing everything else except studying the game or doing homework on players/teams/opponents? Were you his personal assistant and by his side 365/24/7?

    How do you suppose that a player, a man can play 17 seasons, 8 out of which were at a high level without work ethic? Without training during the off season? Without maintaining, improving his craft in order to stay at a high level? Without preparing his body during off season for the 82-game regular season when during prime he averaged over 37 minutes a game? Again regardless of talent, players have to put in work to prepare themselves for the start of every season and to maintain a high level.

    Extended greatness does not exist without work ethic.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Shaq did not take a step back for Dwyane Wade. Man, that finals has really changed everyone’s perception of history. You realize Shaq got robbed of the MVP in 2005? Right?
    .
    And the reason the contract situation was so bad was not because Shaq was asking for his second 100 million dollar contract. It was because Shaq was due his second 100 million dollar deal, and Kobe was due his first. (2) $100million dollar contracts was really too much to add players around. The situation had to be amended, if not before the contracts were signed, at some point during the first couple seasons.
    .
    And again, Shaq didn’t take a step back for Wade. Wade stepped up in the finals but the team was still built around Shaq. The offense still churned better with Shaq drawing double teams, than with Wade creating off the dribble. It was those last 4 games of the NBA finals that Wade separated himself from Shaq as a player for the Heat. Before that, Wade was the leading scorer (minutes being the main reason), but he wasn’t the teams best player.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    yep, plenty of people have led the NBA in scoring without a work ethic. that makes perfect sense. let’s take everything he’s said in his career to the next level. because that’s not inherently stupid.

  • thebossman15

    dude stop tryna sound smart, he likely just did what was required of him(shooting practice, team practices, mandatory workouts etc.) that alone mixed with his natural ability is enough too lead the nba in scoring especially when you have the green light and are a special player(which im not denying) but his lack of a GOOD work ethic(putting in extra work outside of practice, lifting weights, taking care of his body etc) is why he couldnt make the next leap/ was always injured etc. Had he a strong work ethic however things may have been different but the fact that he never got out of the first round and his career ended on such a low as it did, he will never touch kobe

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    i’m not trying to sound smart,

    .

    i’m trying to get you people to stop saying things like this,

    .

    “he likely just did what was required of him”

    .
    and then acting like you just said something that isn’t your opinion.
    .
    Stop worrying about what i’m trying to say, you obviously don’t even know if what you are saying is right or wrong. see, when you say, “he likely just did what was required of him” — and then in the same paragraph turn that into, “his lack of a good work ethic is why he couldn’t make the next leap/was injured” — YOU DON’T KNOW. Stop turning your assumptions into presumed facts.
    .
    And “couldn’t make the next leap” — HE WAS ARGUABLY THE BEST PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE IN 2003, WHAT NEXT LEAP?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    did you not watch basketball in 2003?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    2006

  • Steven310

    Yes 2006 is a year…. what about it?

  • Conor

    In the mighty Eastern Conference, no less! What hallowed titans of basketball did he face to have the honour of losing to Los Angeles?

  • pposse

    whether or not shaq was the best player or not was irrelevant…did anyone ever see shaq cry and moan the way he did around kobe in Miami? for a second and third yr ball player i might ad. He just complied with whatever offense was run and never said a bad thing about wade. All im saying is that if Shaq had treated Kobe with the same attitude he gave Wade from the beginning then Shaq and Kobe would have made it work out. He took a step back in terms of letting the media believe what they wanted to believe and not fuel the media which was a constant in LA. Miami quitly just reeled 10 game win streaks on the reg, no drama. He may have been the focal point, but all the talk was about D Wade especially in the playoffs. That he could never do for Kobe.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    how did Shaq cry and moan in LA? Him and Kobe didn’t get along, but he was never anything but the best Center in the league. Him and Kobe didn’t get along, specifically because Kobe wanted to get the credit he felt like he deserved. In a way, Kobe’s pursuit of finals MVP is really the only thing that stopped them from winning that 4th ring. He wanted it so bad that he took an incredibly large portion of the Lakers shots. Most of which being shots that resulted in plays that never gave Shaq a chance to even touch the ball
    .
    The problem with Shaq/Kobe was not Shaq. LOL, it was Kobe and his desire to be and to be seen as the best player in the league. To blame it on Shaq as the one causing the problems is revisionist history. Shaq just didn’t take on the leadership role to squash the problem. He barely even tried. And that’s where the criticism of Shaq’s departure from LA should stem from.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Kobe was better in 2006 than Iverson was in any one season. He also got more out of less than Iverson ever did. The 2001 team that made it to the finals wasn’t particularly talented offensively, but that was one of the best defensive teams of all time. And it also happened to play in one of the weakest Eastern Conferences in league history. Kobe did more with less. Kobe did more with more. Kobe was better than Iverson every year of this century after 2002. The defensive difference by that time was so big, that Iverson’s slightly better offensive output was totally negated.

  • LakeShow

    Is LeBron a spoiled child?

    He kinda has the most loaded team…

    Was Magic a spoiled child?

    He had the most loaded team….

    Was Bird a spoiled child?

    He had a top talent team.

    Was Shaq a Spoiled child?

    Penny, Kobe, Wade, Bron, Nash…. That’s like nearly 10 MVP’s between all of them lol…

    Is Wade a spoiled child?

    What about Paul Pierce?

    Kevin Garnett?

    Ray Allen?

    The answer is YES if you’re consistent. BUT you’re probably not….

    lol…. the shock exchange. the biggest troll this site has seen in years is who you copy lol.. wow….

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    @thebossman15

    criticizing him for not winning with that Orlando team is blatantly saying you don’t know what you are talking about.

    .

    want to hear the starting lineup of that 2003 Magic team (i’ll include games played, to make it more obvious how stupid it is to criticize them for not winning)?

    .

    Ready?

    .

    PG – Jacque Vaughn (48 games starting, 80 games played)
    —– Darrell Armstrong (23 games starting, 82 games played)

    SG – Tracy McGrady (74 games starting, 75 games played)

    SF – Grant Hill (29 games starting, 29 games played)
    —— Mike Miller (39 games starting, 49 games played)
    —— Gordon Gierecek (27 games starting, 27 games played)

    PF – Shawn Kemp (55 games starting, 79 games played)
    —— Pat Garrity (53 games starting, 81 games played)

    C – Andrew Declearq (21 games starting, 77 games played)

    .
    .
    Now, really, how are they supposed to win a playoff series with THAT team?
    .
    Better yet, let’s look at the playoff roster, (that took the Pistons, who were about to start visiting the conference finals, year in and year out, to a 3-1 series lead)

    Darrell Armstrong
    Tracy McGrady
    Gordon Gierecek
    Drew Gooden
    Andrew Declearcq
    .
    LOL, really? going to argue that he was a disappointment because he didn’t win in the playoffs with THAT? — he MADE THE PLAYOFFS WITH THAT SUPPORTING CAST. That by itself is freaking astonishing.

  • LakeShow

    Sorry to have kept you waiting. I go home at 6pm PST….

    The year where he put 35 -5 – 5 a game of course.

    Smush Parker was the third leading scorer, Chris Mihm and Brian Cook were the 4th and 5th scorers.

    Do you know who they are? I know they aren’t house hold names.

    They weren’t good…

  • berkamore

    Wait a minute, you insult me and actually believe that we can keep having a conversation?

    Anyway your arguments (if we are generous enough to call whatever you are writing arguments, I would call them poorly regurgitated IQ lowering platitudes wrapped in a layer of fanaticism, but hey that’s me) are weak anyway and I am not learning anything. Absolutely pointless.

    But go forth and do……………whatever.

  • LakeShow

    Thee ole: “can’t actually come back with a response so i’ll make it personal”….

    Have a good day Shock Exchange Jr.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    i am not trying to prove anything. i’m just saying i don’t have a reason to believe McGrady coasted.
    .
    regarding the last paragraph, using Kobe as a benchmark for other people’s work ethic is basically a form of intellectual dishonesty. That’s like me criticizing a tanning bed because it isn’t exactly like the freaking Sun.

  • berkamore

    What is it? You started with the insults. You already forgot? What are you, 85? Selective memory or just plain old fanaticism?

    Not personal, I don’t even know you, we were just discussing sports and you felt you could just insult me. I actually let it slide yesterday. But NOOOO, you could not leave it alone and you had to open your mouth again today………..on a thread that is almost dead.

    You thought I would not react? If you are surprised, you may even be more hopeless than I thought. Goodness, complete waste of time/life.

  • LakeShow

    So…. are they spoiled??

    Or you just prefer talking about your feelings instead basketball?

  • pposse

    i was going to edit my comment cause i knew you would think my take on the situation was shaq’s fault by my comments..but let me clear the air…BoTH kobe and shaq were to blame on the split. Kobe more than Shaq i agree with, but shaq took plenty of verbal shots at kobe thru the media and vice versa. But like you said Shaq not taking the leadership role, and even Rodman went on late night shows and called both of them “little girls” – whats revisionist history is putting the sole blame on Kobe. They way i see it, Shaq was the bigger man physically, and mentally he could have taken the high road and not played silly games with an immature 24 yr old. Shaq was over 30 yrs old. He wanted to prove to Kobe just as much as Kobe wanted to prove to Shaq that he could win a ring without him.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    i’m not trying to put the blame solely on Kobe at all. I think it’s 50/50. But i know Kobe is the reason it deteriorated (in terms of beginning the process). Just look at Shaq’s relationship with every other second fiddle he ever played with. Once he was not the top dog on his team anymore, he relinquished control (Miami, 2006). I just don’t understand why people think it was right for Kobe to act like it was his time to be the top dog. Kobe was the second most dominant player in the league. 2nd to the guy on his team. ANd he just couldn’t accept it, he HAD to prove it wrong. And that is what pissed off Shaq and started his acting like a total freaking idiot.
    .
    Kobe started it. Shaq made it untenable.

  • berkamore

    Even we put aside your lousy manners for a moment and focus on your…………”analysis”, I suppose. Well, your post is flawed. You chose to focus on ONE word out of my entire post. (I am assuming you have ZERO arguments for the other points covered or you can’t hold more than one thought in your head but bygones)

    But even putting that aside, your examples are not even consistent. Comparing the teammates that, Paul Pierce (who played on some truly awful Boston teams) Ray Allen (The Milwaukee and Seattle years) or LeBron (Remember Cleveland) or Garnett (who played for 12 years in Minnesota) had over their ENTIRE careers with those that Bryant (great teams save for a 2-3 year stretch) had is…………………rich.

    I mean, if you can’t even look at facts objectively then it’s hopeless. The whole thing makes ZERO sense. It’s textbook fanaticism. Intellectually dishonest and absolutely pointless…………..

    But hey, in case you are willing to bet that the Lakers will win it all this year………please do, I would take the other side of that bet in a heartbeat………………..

    God, why am I even answering this s..t anyway?

  • Steven310

    That 2001 Philly team had no business being anywhere near the nba finals unless they were in stands watching the game. It doesn`t matter how good of a defensive team they were or how weak the East was. Toronto was better than them and they eliminated them. Milwaukee was better than them and they eliminated them. They had no business being in the finals. End of the discussion because this is not a valid argument.

    “Kobe was better than Iverson every year of this century after 2002.” Are you referring to the seasons where Shaq was still on LAL demanding double, triple, and quadruple teams because he wasn`t traded until 2004? Or maybe you`re referring to the post-Shaq era when LAL missed the postseason one year and was knocked out of the playoffs the other two? Or perhaps you’re referring to LAL`s rejuvenation when they finally realized that Kobe was not the key to winning a title so they went out and picked up Gasol whose acquisition led directly to 3 straight final appearances and 2 championships.

    “He also got more out of less than Iverson ever did.”

    Nope. Not true and it`s as simple as that lmao.

    Smush Parker`s O > Eric Snow`s O.

    Eric Snow`s D > Parker`s D.

    Caron Butler was not a bum. Versatile, do-everything Lamar Odom was not a bum. Chris Mihm > Tyrone Hill. Samuel Dalembert was a backup C who was starting. Philly ran through countless forwards with Marc Jackson, Kenny Thomas, Derrick Coleman, Corliss Williamson (post Detroit era), Van Horn, Rodney Rodgers, etc throughout Iverson`s years in Philly lol. But Iverson had more talent than Kobe in LA? Really?!

    How about playing in a backcourt with Speedy Claxton or Kevin Ollie or Willie Green or John Salmons? And you think 2-3 years of Smush is so egregious?

    Throughout Kobe`s career he`s always had at least 2 other players in double figures usually at least 3 or more.

    In 2004-05, LAL missed the playoffs completely. In 2005-06, LAL lost in the 1st rd to Phoenix after relinquishing a 3-1 series lead. In 2006-07, LAL lost in the 1st rd yet again to Phoenix 4-1.

    In the past 3 seasons LAL has boasted a roster full of great-to-good players like Kobe, Gasol, Bynum, Dwight, Nash, Artest, Sessions, Odom, and a slew of other solid pieces like Matt Barnes, Steve Blake, Jamison, Shannon Brown, Fisher, Jordan Hill, and Jodie Meeks. And the results have been disappointing to say the least: 4-game sweep to Dallas in the 2nd rd, 4-1 series lost to Okc in 2nd rd, and 4-game sweep to San Antonio in the 1st rd.

    But Kobe`s done more with less and more with more, right? Ok?

    Again Kobe has never been a great defender. He`s never been a good team/help defender as he has always struggled to rotate on help defense, he`s not a great on ball defender as he`s always struggled to stay in front of quick/fast guards, and he`s not great in the passing lanes. Couldn`t guard Iverson. Was eaten up by Rip Hamilton in the finals. And aside from Game 3 when he was in serious foul trouble, Paul Pierce lit LAL up in the 2007-08 finals on route to beating LAL. So… I don`t know where this huge defensive disparity bet Iverson and Kobe comes from. I`m sure Kobe has been named to some all defensive teams but defense is not defined by statistics, honors, and recognitions as much as it is observation and subsequent analysis. Based on my observation he`s been an average defender during his career.

    “Kobe was better in 2006 than Iverson was in any one season.”

    Well 2006 is a year not a season. There are two seasons that cover the year 2006 which are 2005-06 and 2006-07.

    In 2005-06, Kobe posted 41.0 mpg (5th in minutes), 35.4 ppg (1st in points), 4.5 apg, 5.3 rpg, and 1.8 spg (9th in steals) in 80 games. Kobe was 27 years old then.

    In 2005-06, Iverson posted 43.1 mpg (1st in minutes), 33.0 ppg (2nd in points), 7.4 apg (8th in assists), 3.2 rpg, and 1.9 spg (7th in steals) in 72 games. Iverson was 30 years old then.

    In 2006-07, Kobe posted 40.8 mpg (4th in minutes), 31.6 ppg (1st in points), 5.4 apg, 5.7 rpg, and 1.4 spg in 77 games. Kobe was 28 years old then.

    In 2006-07, Iverson was traded to Denver midway through the season.

    In Philly he posted, 42.7 mpg, 31.2 ppg, 7.3 apg, 2.7 rpg, and 2.2 spg in 15 games.

    In Denver, he posted 42.4 mpg, 24.8 ppg, 7.2 apg, 3.0 rpg, and 1.8 spg in 50 games.

    His overall numbers in 2006-07 were 42.5 mpg (1st in minutes), 26.3 ppg (7th in points while his new teammate Carmelo Anthony was 2nd in points at 28.9 ppg), 7.2 apg (8th in assists), 3.0 rpg, and 1.9 spg (7th in steals) in 65 total games. Iverson was 31 years old then.

    So in 2005-06 Kobe was top ten in ‘three major statistical categories’ including 1st in scoring while Iverson was top 10 in ‘four major statistical categories’ including 1st in minutes.

    In 2006-07, Kobe was top ten in ‘two major statistical categories’ as he captured his 2nd scoring title. While Iverson was top ten in “four major statistical categories’ once again as he led the league in minutes yet again.

    Iverson covered more major statistical categories than Kobe thus as he was top ten in minutes, points, assists, and steals thus Iverson had the better seasons.

    Ta da.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Man you wasted a lot of time on something I’m not going to read. That’s unfortunate. Pretty cool of you to think that just because you say so that it must be true though. Really awesome 2,000 word opinion you typed up.

  • LakeShow

    Way to prove your unintelligent.

    When have I said the Lakers would be anything other than a 7th or 8th seed this year? LOL

    So why are these guys not spoiled to join HOF’rs but Kobe is?

    Oh because your biased and jealous…

    Garnett would never have won a chip if not for the two HOFr’s on his team.

    LeBron would not have won if not for the two HOFr’s on his team.

    Wade had the third best player of the last 30 years join his team.

    Bird never would have won.

    Magic never would have won.

    MJ never would have won….

    Unless they had more talent than the rest of the L. That’s how it has always worked.

    Maybe someday you’ll wake up out of your tard-coma.

    :)

    Just giving you sh*t man. Don’t take anything personal. It’s the internets….

    You seriously ought re-think your thoughts on NBA norms.

    This is how the NBA works. You try and get more talent than anyone else so you can win a chip…like 90% of the last champs.

  • berkamore

    “When I have said………….Lakers 7th 8th seed…..” I wrote IN CASE you think………….If you can’t read, it’s kind of hopeless. LOL.

    “So why are these guys…………..Hofers but Kobe is? ” Kind of disjointed. Don’t understand what you mean.

    “Garnett would never have won a chip if not for the two HOFr’s on his team.

    LeBron would not have won if not for the two HOFr’s on his team.

    Wade had the third best player of the last 30 years join his team.

    Bird never would have won.

    Magic never would have won.

    MJ never would have won….

    Unless they had more talent than the rest of the L. That’s how it has always worked.”

    Cute but you don’t know that. You are just speculating. The Pistons won in 2004 with no big stars so…………LOL

    And BTW, I may be “unintelligent” but even I know this. You don’t say :”Way to prove YOUR unintelligent”, the proper spelling is :”Way to prove YOU ARE unintelligent” or you could spell it:”Way to prove YOU’RE unintelligent.”

    Also “YOUR biased and jealous.’ No it’s “YOU ARE biased and jealous”. (Which is just your opinion BTW, which means not worth that much but hey, you are entitled to it, LOL)

    But I am sure you already knew this. God, reading/answering your posts make me feel dumber afterwards, can’t be good………………LOL.

  • LakeShow

    LOL

    I wish we could just discuss basketball but since you’re more interested in English class…..

    Here’s what I wrote:

    “When have I said the Lakers would be anything other than a 7th or 8th seed this year?”

    Here’s what you said:

    “When I have said………….Lakers 7th 8th seed…..” I wrote IN CASE you think………….If you can’t read, it’s kind of hopeless.”

    WHAT?

    You’re making fun of my grammar and you’re the one that can’t even put together a legible sentence…

    ANYWAY… BACK TO BASKETBALL NOT ENGLISH CLASS

    …………………………………………………………………………………..

    The infamous 1 team that everyone can only seem to bring up.

    Whom happened to be one of the best defensive teams of all time….

    The 2004 Pistons… With 3 All-Stars and Prince. Who was one of the best defenders and floor stretchers during that time.

    Yeah great analogy for the “right way” to play the game.

  • sayITwitYA.chest

    nbk is a cocksuka

  • berkamore

    IN CASE you think was referring you to a sentence in a previous post. Since you are too lazy/stupid to look it up, let me spell it out for you.

    If you are so certain that the Lakers are good, maybe you would be willing to bet some money on them winning the championship next year. End of story. Hope that is clear enough? If it’s not, can’t do much for you.

    And now to your…………not sure how to call this.

    “The infamous 1 team that everyone can only seem to bring up.

    Whom happened to be one of the best defensive teams of all time….

    The 2004 Pistons… With 3 All-Stars and Prince. Who was one of the best defenders and floor stretchers during that time.

    Yeah great analogy for the “right way” to play the game”

    Is there a point? Because this makes ZERO sense. You either said too much or not enough. But as is, it is, to be polite, an ATTEMPT. LOL.

    And BTW, it is “the team THAT”, or “the team WHICH” not “the team WHOM”. Don’t be so f…….lazy, check your posts in MS Word for chrissake if you have never been introduced to grammar and syntax.

    That’s enough. I’m done with you. The whole thing is just too dumb for me. I can see that you are trying to bait me into answering you because you are probably getting something from my posts.

    But I am not getting anything from you so this whole thing is kind of useless. Well, I gotta stop feeding trolls in the future. Good luck to you.

  • Jay Brodes

    no way tmac was ever better than mamba…period! good yes! easy to say he would have been able to play with shaq after the fact. real easy to play monday morning qB!

  • Steven310

    Yes I know who they are, they are former nba players. I don`t know what colleges Smush or Mihm went to but I know Cook played at Illinois. For once LAL didn`t feature players with house hold names and Kobe put up good numbers with these players. But most players in the nba including starters aren`t house hold names. LAL had some average players like every other nba team including Philly because Iverson also played with non-house hold names. So what`s your point?

    Here are some players that non house hold names that were starters in Philly with Iverson: Scott Williams, Michael Cage, Aaron McKie, Matt Geiger, Eric Snow, George Lynch, Tyrone Hill, Jumaine Jones (who started 14 games in the 2000-01 postseason), Speedy Claxton, Corie Blount, Kenny Thomas, Todd MacCulloch, Samuel Dalembert, Willie Green, Andre Igoudala, Steven Hunter, Kevin Ollie, Kyle Korver, and Rodney Carney. And I`m withholding quite a few non house hold names.

    What about Denver? Did Iverson only play alongside house hold names there? Well let`s see. Some non house hold names who started in Denver include Earl Boykins (who was arguably apart of the smallest, starting back court in nba history alongside Iverson), J.R. Smith (drafted out of HS), Steve Blake (unless you`re a Terrapin fan), Linas Kleiza, Eduardo Najera, Reggie Evans, Yakhouba Diawara (no, this is not misprint this was a real nba player), DerMarr Johnson, and Anthony Carter (who started 67 out of 82 games in 2007-08).

    So Kobe played with some non house hold names for a 3-yr stretch while Iverson played with non house hold names for an entire career. Now what`s you point?

  • Steven310

    I`m glad you`re accepting defeat.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Lol.

  • wambamthanku

    So you just compared T-Mac to Allen Iverson, big mistake. Iverson worked harder than Kobe by miles. I wouldn’t say the same for T-Mac but Iverson was the definition of intangibles, how do you think he took the 6ers to the Finals?? Because of his amazing 2nd option Aaron Mckie..?

    Iverson didn’t lose to kobe in 2001 he lost to the best player in the league Shaquille O’Neal.

  • LakeShow

    If Dekembe Mutombo, Carmelo, Andre Iguadala aren’t house hold names… That’s news to me.

    Here’s what you said…

    “Oh?!… Interesting. Enlighten me then. What season did Kobe have less talent than Iverson compared to all the teams Iverson was on lol? And which season did Kobe average better stats than Iverson ever did which would be better than 30 and 7?

    I`ll wait….”

    He had a less talented team than some of Iverson’s worse teams and he put up greater numbers….

    I love AI, he just isn’t quite on KB’s level.

  • LakeShow

    “The team whom” is completely grammatically correct, and I don’t give a farkin sh*t even if it wasn’t.

    See how I spelled da word “F*cking” farking? I dont giva farkin sh*T.

    You have no basketball argument so you had to make it about grammar… and you still FAILED lol.

    Hit me up on a post where you wanna get schooled about basketball and I will oblige you Shock Jr..

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    hey look, i’m bored. ready?

    .

    “That 2001 Philly team had no business being anywhere near the nba finals unless they were in stands watching the game. It doesn`t matter how good of a defensive team they were or how weak the East was. Toronto was better than them and they eliminated them. Milwaukee was better than them and they eliminated them. They had no business being in the finals. End of the discussion because this is not a valid argument.”

    - The 76ers beat those teams in 7 game series. I think it’s clear what team was better. You don’t watch a team lose in the finals and say well, “they were better” — so, that point is immediately stupid. You don’t have a worse team, and win playoff series while shooting under 40%…….

    .

    You do realize Iverson shot under 40% in the playoffs the year they went to the finals right? (.389%) Cuz he did. And that sh*t is not special. The east was just a big pile of trash, so Iverson got an easy road to get to the finals. That’s why they got there. NOt because Iverson was some other worldly basketball player. He was great in 2001, but he wasn’t some unstoppable force. In fact, he was stopped an average of 2.5 times every 4 possessions. Or, 1.94 times every 3 possessions. Do you understand what that means? I sure hope so.

    .

    Why are you listing Kobe’s teammates in a response to me saying Kobe was better than Iverson? I get that he had help, nobody ever said he didn’t. But he was definitely better. Help or not.

    .

    “”He also got more out of less than Iverson ever did.”

    yes, that is true. The Lakers played in the West while Kobe had a terrible supporting cast, 2005-06-07, not in the East in 2001, where Iverson had a pretty decent supporting cast (terrible on offense, elite on defense). And Kobe took a top seeded Suns team to 7 games twice. A suns team that was better than any team Iverson ever faced and beat in a playoff series.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    “”Kobe was better in 2006 than Iverson was in any one season.”

    Well 2006 is a year not a season. There are two seasons that cover the year 2006 which are 2005-06 and 2006-07.

    —- when you are talking about NBA seasons, and a person just says a year, he is talking about the year a season ended. So “2006″ = 2005-06. It’s simple. It’s normal. You’ll learn.

    In 2005-06, Kobe posted 41.0 mpg (5th in minutes), 35.4 ppg (1st in points), 4.5 apg, 5.3 rpg, and 1.8 spg (9th in steals) in 80 games. Kobe was 27 years old then.

    In 2005-06, Iverson posted 43.1 mpg (1st in minutes), 33.0 ppg (2nd in points), 7.4 apg (8th in assists), 3.2 rpg, and 1.9 spg (7th in steals) in 72 games. Iverson was 30 years old then.

    In 2006-07, Kobe posted 40.8 mpg (4th in minutes), 31.6 ppg (1st in points), 5.4 apg, 5.7 rpg, and 1.4 spg in 77 games. Kobe was 28 years old then.

    In 2006-07, Iverson was traded to Denver midway through the season.

    In Philly he posted, 42.7 mpg, 31.2 ppg, 7.3 apg, 2.7 rpg, and 2.2 spg in 15 games.

    In Denver, he posted 42.4 mpg, 24.8 ppg, 7.2 apg, 3.0 rpg, and 1.8 spg in 50 games.”

    There is more to the world than basic, Points/Assists/Rebounds/Steals……things like Shooting %. Efficiency. matter just as much. And when the production is similar, like it is here. It is what makes the difference.

    .

    And Kobe? Was a much better defender (because Iverson was terrible, and he over gambled which worked because dumbasses like you love the steals stat) – he wasn’t as elite as he gets credit for (save for 2 seasons, 00-01 and 01-02). ANd he was way way way more efficient.

    Kobe’s PER 2005-06 = 28.0 (career high)

    Iverson’s PER 2005-06 = 25.9 (career high)

    .

    .

    Clearly, Kobe was a better individual player when you factor in efficiency and defense. Clearly.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    “Iverson covered more major statistical categories than Kobe thus as he was top ten in minutes, points, assists, and steals thus Iverson had the better seasons.”
    .
    lol, in other words, “i am a layman and don’t know anything about basketball”

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Steven310 is about as ignorant as a person can be. I hope you actually look at what he’s saying.

  • shockexchange

    Remove Shaq from that team and replace him with only a very good center and (i) LA would not have made the finals or (ii) AI and the 76ers would have swept them in 4 games.

  • Steven310

    LOOOOL… Oh I see now. You`re one of those people who are obsessed with the new advanced statistics and you actually seem to think that they determine whether one player is better than another. So this conversation is going no where because I can`t help you.

    We have done fine with our old-fashioned basic stats mpg, ppg, apg, rpg, and spg for the last 50+ years. These new stats that attempt to measure everything (which is impossible) are more useless than helpful. Personal observation and basic statistical analysis (mpg, ppg, apg, etc) will always be the deciding factor when measuring a player`s value.

    I`m not going to address your defensive argument again since it seems to be your personal opinion that Kobe was a good defensive player even though he wasn`t. I do find it interesting that you didn`t use one of those advance stats to falsely support your claim. I wonder why…

    Anyway, I appreciate you copying and pasting a large part of my post. I am flattered but Iverson was and is still better than Kobe.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Obsessed? i just used the most basic advanced stat in existence (which is literally the stats you listed, added together, and adjusted for minutes/attempts/turnovers/shooting. and even if i did go into detail, They are proven to work better than a basic box score. All 30 teams use them. How you “feel” about them is irrelevant. And the fact that PER is too complicated for you to even know about it….says quite a bit.

  • Steven310

    WOW. Idk why you wasted time mentioning Iverson`s sub-40 field goal percentage or the rate at which he was stopped per possession in the 2000-01 playoffs lol. If there was ever a more useless statistic…. You`re getting desperate. As I alluded to in an earlier post, I`m not obsessed with efficiency and advanced stats.

    I rely on observations and analysis of the most basic stats that have been used since the late 1940s because as I mentioned in before there are other factors that can positively or negatively contribute to a player`s efficiency or any other statistic for that matter. Stats don`t factor in other contributors or subtractions. For instance, having Shaq as a teammate would be a contributor while having Tyrone Hill as a teammate would be a subtraction. It`s not rocket science. Stats don`t tell the whole story, that`s why you can`t rely solely on numbers.

    “The 76ers beat those teams in 7 game series.” When it takes a team 7 games to beat the opposition in a maximum 7 game series, it`s quite normal to assume that the team that loss game 7 may have been the better team. That makes sense, right?

    If I recall correctly, LAL had a 3-1 lead against the Suns before the collapse and Kobe no-show in Game 7. So LAL loss their 1st rd series against the Suns leading 3-1. Again LAL loss the series against the Suns leading 3-1. They were one game away from advancing to the 2nd rd and then they loss 3 games in a row. Can you grasp this? Similarly in 2002-03 Orlando loss to Detroit leading 3-1 when McGrady was playing for them; a Detroit team that went on to lose in the East Conf Finals just like Phoenix did in 2005-06. So I guess McGrady was the best player in the nba in 2002-03 under these circumstances?

    “Kobe took a top seeded Suns team to 7 games twice” I don`t recall this. In 2005-06, LAL collapsed with Kobe and the non household names (credit to lakeshow) losing 3 consecutive games after holding a 3-1 lead. In 2006-07, LAL loss to Phoenix 4-1 in the 1st rd with Kobe and the non household names. Where did this alleged 2nd 7-game series come from other than your imagination?

    Wouldn`t it be easier to just admit the truth that Iverson was and is better? Just a thought.

  • Steven310

    You need to re-read my post and find where I mentioned Mutombo or Carmelo in my list of non household names and played when you don`t find them listed don`t feel too dumb. When Igoudala played with Iverson in his 1st few years he was not a household name although he was drafted 9th I believe by Philly. You think people knew of Igoudala in 2004 or 2005. More people knew him after the dunk contest but he certainly wasn`t a house hold name coming out of college.

    “He had a less talented team than some of Iverson’s worse teams and he put up greater numbers….”

    K. I can`t help you. You`re delusional. Philly`s 1998-99 was laughable outside of Iverson and that was only his 3rd season in the nba. 1998-99 roster: Matt Geiger, Ratliff, Hughes (rookie), Aaron McKie, Eric Snow, Tyrone Hill, George Lynch, etc. In 1999-00, Philly added Kukoc was the 3rd/4th best player on Chicago. In 2000-01, Philly had a similar roster minus Kukoc and Mutombo (34 yrs old) in place of Ratliff (27 yrs old). Then they went through a slew of forwards some of which included Derrick Coleman, Matt Harpring, Keith Van Horn, Kenny Thomas, etc. But that 1998-99 and 2000-01 playoff roster were worse than any teams Kobe ever played for while several other Philly rosters under Iverson were just as bad as the 1-2-3 seasons Kobe played alongside non house hold names.

    Sorry. No disrespect to Kobe but Iverson was better when he entered the league and was better at their respective peaks. When you post historical numbers (40+ mpg, 30+ ppg, 7+ apg, 1.9+ spg) that only 5 other players have done in the history of the game in back-to-back seasons then you are the best guard in the game. Period. Especially when you`re starting alongside “no lift limited lateral movement Webber”, Marc Jackson, Kyle Korver, rookie Igoudala, Kenny Thomas, Dalembert, Willie Green, John Salmons, and Steven Hunter SMH.

    I didn`t even mention the fact that he averaged a double-double (31.2 ppg, 10 apg, 2 spg, 47.6 mpg) in the 2004-05 postseason against a Detroit team who went on to lose to the San Antonio Spurs in 7 games in the finals. He averaged a double-double as the focal point of the offense against arguably the best defensive team in the league in the pressure-packed postseason.

    And you all think Kobe was/is better than Iverson. Please GTFOH ROFL

    Kobe`s not Iverson`s level dude.

  • Steven310

    “basic advanced” That is an oxymoron. There is no such thing. It`s either one or the other lol. And if I wanted to I would take a few minutes to find the source of and to understand the reasoning behind PER but I don`t care to do so. Advance stats are superfluous. Though I guarantee you my overall intellectual capacity and knowledge is greater than yours as I`m fairly well-rounded in Mathematics, Science, Journalism, oh yeah, and Engineering.

    “How you ‘feel’ about them is irrelevant.” Is this a rhetorical question? The nba is the only major sport that doesn`t have proper drug testing but at least they have advanced statistics. They`re a multimillion dollar corporation that encourages players to continue playing despite obvious/serious personal, drug, or mental issues rather than taking a sabbatical and receiving help and/or treatment. Yet punishes certain players who decide to take a leave of absence to focus on more important issues by not giving them a sufficient opportunity to return to the game, i.e. Allen Iverson.

    The nba is not my favorite sport as I can count the number of games that I have watched in the last 3 years on both hands.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Did you just tell me you are smarter than me. And then quote a sentence that says, “how you feel about them is irrelevant” and then call it a question? Right after you said “basic advanced” is an oxymoron like its not called an “advanced stat” – I’m not entertaining your arrogant misinformed opinion. You don’t know anything about me. Might as well not assume anything other than what is presented here. As I’m doing with you. It’s just too bad you clearly don’t have then tools to argue about the subject you feel so passionate over. Oh and another thing, children think they understand things they don’t too. So bragging about your “understanding” without proving it…doesn’t really say much about you. .
    And just btw, PER is the most commonly used stat. Period. Mentioned when trying to some up a players overall stat line. Nobody ever said its perfect. But it’s a medium. And it’s proven to be very very very accurate. Look at the best player in the NBA from a given year. Look at the PER leader from that year. It’s simple. And it’s much better to use then your arbitrary, “these stats are better so this player is better” .
    And the reason I don’t show you why Kobe is better on defense is because I would have to use stats. Stats that are obviously not something you are currently equipped to deal with. So come back when you have more than the basic rudimentary understanding of statistics. Or, formulate an opinion based on actual basketball experience? Assuming you have that? Being so knowledgable right? I can deal with that too. It’s just hard to explain the nuances of playing to people who played maybe a year or two in high school, or when they were a teenager maybe they played for a few years. So please, show something more than what you have. Because I feel like I’m arguing with the little kids I help learn how to shoot.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    nobody believes Iverson was better than Kobe. Even Allen Iverson.

  • Steven310

    There you go again letting your imagination run wild again.

    “nobody believes Iverson was better than Kobe. Even Allen Iverson” Just because you make a statement doesn`t make that statement fact lol. I am one person who believes Iverson was better than Kobe. Yes, Iverson is a second person who believes he was better than Kobe and I know several other people who share this same belief so there goes your claim out the window lol. I don`t understand why you took 15 whole seconds to type this sentence knowing the ridiculousness and falsehood that lied in its meaning. That`s 15 seconds you can never get back.

    I have to be honest though. I don`t have the time to continue going back and forth with you. Sadly, you have much more time on your hands than I do since I`ve done some research and realized that this isn`t the first time you have entered into and sustained one of these never-ending debates with someone opposing your point of view on a SLAM forum.

    Let`s remember this all began when you responded to my statement of Iverson being better than Kobe for the majority of Iverson`s and thus the majority of Kobe`s career.

    So, you started this conversation and now I`m ended it victoriously.

  • LakeShow

    That was a biggie!

    Naw, Kobe is better, everyone with a solid noggin agrees.

    Better defense, better offense… Better player…

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    let’s make this really really simple….

    .

    http://www.nbauniverse.com/player_comparison/kobe_bryant_vs_allen_iverson.htm

    .
    k that’s over.
    .
    bye.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    @disqus_j65FuvcSML:disqus are you seeing this?

  • Clos1881

    3-5 are you bugging ? I would have loved to see the level of frustration for Kobe after being spoiled playing with Eddie jones van exel shaq horry ect ect and then playing with Bo outlaw Darrell Armstrong pat garrity ect ect

  • Clos1881

    That explains Kobe going for 81 then? What was Kobe doing after shaq before pau? Teammates matter ask lebron lol

  • swift

    Tmac had a better run than kobe in their first 10 years of their career. Stats don’t lie. By the 11th year. Kobe go just about equal careert stats as tmac or better. But at first 10 years no cmparison in stats. To give you an idea of why. Lebron and tmac are the only players in nba history to produce such stats in their first 10 years in the nba.

  • swift

    Tmac and kobe were arguably the best in the league for couple years. If you say kobe was always better. Well…. that’s your opinion. But was always that big question bedore tmac got a surgery. Who is the best player in the nba? That was a big question and tough to decide. When it comes to stats tmac obviously better. But scoring wise. Kobe had better scoring mentality but they both were still scoring machines like no other.and kobe did say tmac was his toughest matchup.

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