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Thursday, October 3rd, 2013 at 11:15 am  |  170 responses

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Says Kobe Bryant Won’t Be the Same Player This Season


If Kobe Bryant needs any more motivation as he makes his way back from Achilles surgery, he should listen to what Kareem Abdul-Jabbar has to say. Cap says the Black Mamba will be slow to return, and won’t be the same player when he steps back on the court. Per CBS Sports: “It’s a rebuilding year for them because Kobe has been hurting and he has a very devastating type of injury,’ Abdul-Jabbar said. ‘I don’t think he will be able to come back as quickly and completely as he would like. It’s gonna be tough on the Lakers this year.’ Then, Abdul-Jabbar hit the Lakers with a dose of reality, a grim possibility that no Lakers fan would want to contemplate. ‘When Kobe does come back, it’s gonna be a different Kobe and that will definitely effect the outcome for the Lakers long-term,’ Abdul-Jabbar said. ‘… It’s gonna be a test for him this year, absolutely.’ Bryant, 35, has been one of the most durable marvels of modern athletics. Nothing, it seemed, would keep him down for long. But the notion that Bryant would just put on his Kobe face, breeze through rehab and go right back to draining 20-foot, fadeaway jumpers on opening night was flawed from the beginning. The reality, as Abdul-Jabbar alluded to, is that Bryant is in the fight of his basketball life.”

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  • shockexchange

    Of course he won’t. He’s no longer surrounded by “exceptionally more talent than the rest of the League.”

  • danpowers

    dont let the kobe-homers read this.

    you should know that all his team success only happened whenever his teammates were of superior talent compared to opposing teams and that he never lead an inferior team to anything is pure coincidence. that absolutely doesnt show that he wouldnt make his teammates better or that his style of play would demand an entire team to work their a*ses off for him instead the other way round.

    so please cut the nonsense about the mj-bootleg.

  • berkamore

    KAJ is right. You always want things to work out for the best but realistically, Bryant probably won’t be the same when he returns.

    My guess is it’s the reason why Jordan (who is unbelievably competitive) was kinda nice to him in comments about the best one on one player. You don’t kick a guy who’s already on the ground…………

    It’s also the reason why the Lakers are taking a wait and see attitude about his contract. The writing seems to be on the wall.

    But I am sure Lakers fans think otherwise, LOL.

  • therichardkirby

    Like someone said on one of these debates earlier, Rodman/Pippen > Gasol/Bynum/Odom. I’ll take it one step further Rodman/Pippen>Wade/Bosh>Gasol/Bynum/Odom. That 2008 Finals squad started Vladimir Radmonovic for crying out loud!!!! Pau Gasol still has not even made it out of the first round without KB24. Let’s dial back on the hate for just a second.

  • underdog

    Kobe probably won’t be the same player, but that doesn’t necessarily means he’ll be worse.

  • danpowers

    dont forget to put it into perspective. wade is arguably the best sg in the league when healthy or even at 80%. even if you consider him second best, thats not too shebby as a 2nd option. also dont forget that bosh voluntarely sacrifices numbers for team success. he is a 20-10 caliber player, even one of the better 20 and 10ers. pippen and rodman may be superior to any laker duo behind kobe, but the bulls werent as deep as those recent lakers championship squads

    the rest (outside their big 3 / 4) of the laker’s/ heat’s rosters were better than the rest of the 90s bulls supporting casts – even if average talent of the respective time is considered.

    and grant/pippen are definitely not superior to gasol/bynum/odom or wade/bosh.

    gasol didnt make it out of the first round with a back then expansion team quality roster. kobe once didnt even make the playoffs with such a team. so this point you mentioned is pretty pointless. i didnt say gasol was more valuable/better than bryant anyway. but kobe needs considerably more talent around him in order to be successful. at least he had better supporting casts than those greats to whom he likes to be compared.

  • shockexchange

    Also keep in mind that the teams Jordan/Pippen/Rodman had to walk through to take the cake were far more superior to the teams Horry Jr / Pau Gasol / Andrew Bynum at the same ____ time had to walk through. Jordan and ‘em didn’t play against 6’8″ centers.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Kobe still hasn’t made it out of the first round without Pau Gasol or Shaq.
    .
    so probably think before you say wildly irrelevant things.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    he will be worse. that much is pretty much certain. you don’t tear your achilles at 35 and come back as good as you were before hand.

  • therichardkirby

    KG, Perkins, Howard, Gortat, Duncan…I don’t see any 6’8 centers on that list.

  • thebossman15

    …no, mj has always thought of kobe highly and thats cuz hes the best player post the mj era. Plus there really is no other name that really f*cks with kobe in his prime 1 on 1

  • danpowers

    without

  • thebossman15

    kobe>your favorite player..you know it, i know it, jesus knows it

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    it was literally fixed immediately.

  • danpowers

    oh, who is my favorite player again? and in which way should that be relevant for anything i wrote?

  • thebossman15

    dude bynum was never healthy during their championship runs lmao, dont confuse my opinion of bynum with that statement cuz in my eyes hes the best big in the league WHEN healthy..but in the last 2 championship wins for the lakers it was really just kobe and gasol with a decent supporting cast

  • danpowers

    sorry, thought i had to prevent misunderstandings lol

  • danpowers

    “just kobe and gasol” …. “with a decent supporting cast”.

    please think about this deeply.

  • thebossman15

    “dont let the kobe-homers read this” is kobe code for another name?

  • shockexchange

    And after enduring more back talk, the Shock Exchange stands corrected, Horry Jr will perform better despite no longer being aligned with “exceptionally more talent than the rest of the L.” Thanks for clearing that up.

  • thebossman15

    http://www.nba.com/lakers/stats/2008/nba_finals_stats.html

    Please view this site you ignorant mf..i really dont even want too have too show you what he did too get too the finals..

  • Ben Ireland

    Can we stop the 6’8″ centers bullsh*t please?
    2001 playoffs, the Blazers, Sacramento and San Antonio… You say all you like, those were damn good teams, and they swept em. Shaq was a big part of that, but by no means did Kobe not help.
    2009/10, Garnett and Dwight, two superior defensive bigs than any Jordan played against in the Finals
    Kobe beat good teams too. His team was never VASTLY superior. Superior though? Yeah. Were Jordan’s teams superior to everyone else’s? Yeah. That’s how you know they won the title, my friend!

  • danpowers

    what does this have to do with any player i root for? even when you read anything written by me about a player i like, you wouldnt see me trying to let it look like xy was the goat or even up in the debate when it is obvious that he is not. thats what seperates quite some “kobe fans” from many other basketball observers.

  • TR

    in 2009 they were.

  • shockexchange

    SE with stop “the 6’8″ centers bullsh*t” as soon as you stop comparing Horry Jr to Jordan. A better comparison would be Robert Horry. At least that’s what “The Streets” is saying.

  • thebossman15

    dude, you have obviously never met a lebron fan if you think im being ignorant, i was just pokin fun at your comment cuz i thought it was stupid, wasnt tryna hurt your feelings bruh

  • therichardkirby

    First round of the playoffs in an unbelievably stacked Western conference in 05-06. Almost upset the team with the best record in the league in the first round, with a starting lineup of Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Lamar Odom, Chris Mihm/Kwame Brown. The Bulls also had Ron Harper, John Paxon, Steve Kerr, Tony Kukoc (one of the top 5 European players of all time) on those championship squads. Lebron had Shane Battier, Mike Miller, Ray Allen, Mario Chalmers etc.
    Those Bulls players (same with Lebron on the Heat) get outshone due Michael Jordan’s individual brilliance and the sheer enormity of their star player’s brand. Those Bulls players were a solid bunch.

  • danpowers

    he is maybe the best 1 on 1 player but that doesnt equal total impact on 5 on 5 basketball. starting a franchise with duncan, shaq, howard, lebron or durant – just to name a “few” – on teams with equal talent, would obviously translate into more wins than starting the same franchise with kobe. at least all evidence implies that

  • Smits#45

    Even if he didn´t get injured there would´ve been a chance that he wasn´t the same as before. I mean, the guy is 35. At some point even a great player like Kobe is going to decline.

  • danpowers

    im not ignorant, i saw all of his paths to his rings, i know the numbers, i compared that to other greats and im very well aware of kobes supporting casts. next.

    btw: 43fg% is what i love about this stat line ;)

  • Ben Ireland

    The Streets?
    I didn’t. Jordan’s better. Undoubtedly so. By a wide margin though? Hell no. That’s my opinion though, you won’t change it.
    But as for Kobe only succeeding with vastly superior teams, you’re wrong, and make it sound like he was carried. When they had Shaq, San Antonio, (and apparently Detroit) were essentially the only teams that could stop em. And if you look at the next few years of Kobe’s career, he had a sh1t sandwich for a team. When he finally got COMPARABLE talent to the rest of the better teams, he dominated again. But he was the best player on those teams.

  • shockexchange

    Agreed. A player who has been carried his entire career is bound to decline once he’s no longer surrounded by “exceptionally more talent than the rest of the L.” <—- CAPTAIN OBVIOUS

  • danpowers

    jordan maybe wasnt better than bryant offensively by a wide margin by terms of capability. in terms of efficiency he was and if we start to talk about defense: what kobe has his teammates do for him is what jordan and pippen (later rodman) did for their whole team. for most parts of the 90s jordan was the best defender on his position and maybe in the entire nba. that separates him from kobe by a wide margin on this aspect of the game.

  • shockexchange

    We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

  • therichardkirby

    What you did was take one piece of the evidence that I put forth about these oft-compared players’ team performance in the finals. Good. Jordan never won a ring without Pippen. Lebron’s never won without Wade. I could go on. No one doubts the greatness of those players. The Kobe hate runs deep on this site. yeesh

  • danpowers

    lets be fair: he didnt necessarily get “carried”. he had great teams working for him to let him look good but on the other hand he was competing and giving his teams effort with an intensity second to none (at least on offense).

    he is not the goat, but this doesnt mean the he wouldnt be a great player.

  • therichardkirby

    Take Howard and Durant off that list until further notice. Howard was the face of an underrated Orlando squad in a weak Eastern Conference. Last year hurt his case. Durant has not yet shown that he can carry a team without Westbrook. Durant is already a great 1-on-1 player, but it remains to be seen whether he can actually carry a team like Lebron, Duncan, Shaq, and, yes, even Kobe have over the years

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    i said a fact that is just as relevant as the fact that you said. that’s all i did. there is no hate involved at all. you using facts that add nothing to the table doesn’t support your argument. so i just showed you the hypocrisy of your statement. i gave no opinion of anything. learn the definition of hate, stop throwing it around like a 12 year old who just found out how cool it is to call everyone a hater.

  • Cortez Mack

    I never viewed those teams as having exceptionally more talent.

    They were sufficiently talented (by default since they won) and well coached, especially those last two championships.

    Shannon Brown: Not exceptional
    Kobe Bryant: Exceptional
    Andrew Bynum: Adequate
    Jordan Farmar: Not exceptional
    Derek Fisher: Not exceptional
    Pau Gasol: Right below exceptional
    Didier Ilunga-Mbenga: Not exceptional
    Adam Morrison: Not exceptional
    Lamar Odom: Good player
    Josh Powell: Not exceptional
    Sasha Vujacic: Not exceptional
    Luke Walton: Not exceptional
    Metta World Peace/Trevor Azera: Not exceptional

  • shockexchange

    Okay, the carried his “entire” career part was a bit much. LOL.

  • therichardkirby

    Two of the first three comments were related to Kobe’s “superior talent”, and there was an “MJ-bootleg” reference somewhere in there. So, in addressing those posts, my comments are in fact relevant.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    nope. just because you are responding to something doesn’t mean saying,

    “Pau Gasol still has not even made it out of the first round without KB24.” is justifiable, especially considering the same can be said about Kobe.

    .
    “because you are defensive about Kobe” is not a rational reason to say something irrational.

  • danpowers

    no doubt these bulls were a solid bunch. i make the wild assumption now that basketball is a teamsport and that the nba finals have never been won by a team just consisting of two or three good players surrounded by a roster of 12 scrubs.

    that is not the point imo. nobody with a common sense would ask bryant or anyone to be able to carry teams like lebron.

    it just got exposed in that dog years between 04-05 and 06/07 that bryant doesnt really make players around him better. he is maybe the best 1 on 1 player ever (even though i doubt he could have beaten mj) but for a team you need a deluxe squad working their butts off for things like: whenever he loses interest in playing D or starts going hero-ball like “there is no bad shot”. it asks much of a team with championship aspirations to make up for that. and he had the luxury to be on many teams to allow him to succeed like that.

    i dont argue that he is a great player individually. id just draft hakeem, duncan, shaq, lebron, durant, wade, jordan, ewing, magic, bird, abdul-jabbar as a gm instead of bryant if i had the choice to start a franchise. even though some of them are inferior to bryant talent/skill wise, they’d give your team more to win than bryant does. at least they’d take inferior talent further with things like defense / rebounding or more efficient offense than bryant did.

    im also not trying to let it look like bryant got carried. he was the main guy on the last 2 lakers championship teams and he was also HUGE for that lakers 3 peat team. he just wont give your team much more than alot of points when on a bad team. not necessarily more points overall than the opposing team and that is my point.

  • Lloyd

    Howard getting to the finals was no accident. They went through both the defending champs (even without KG they were formidable) and Lebron. Last year he played hurt on an underwhelming Laker team.

    Durant played with Westbrook almost his whole NBA career. To readjust mid-playoffs to play without him must have been difficult to do since there wasn’t really any other game plan besides “let KD shoulder all the offence”. We’ll see if the Thunder are able to make those adjustments this season.

    Regardless, if you wouldn’t take either Durant or Howard to start a team around, you’re a fool.

  • Conor

    People continually say that, but the NBA was robbed of seeing Kobe Bryant play for championships during his prime. His T-Mac era couldn’t have been more poorly timed.

    Do you remember how easy it was for him to simply pull up for threes from six feet behind the arc then? There are only three players who have had that kind of diversity in their (offensive) games, from the baseline to halfcourt: Bryant, Jordan, and Bird.

  • danpowers

    about durant: to what did kobe carry a team EVER without other star players? we will durant’s individual impact on a team during the next 4-6 weeks. we cant really blame him for westbrooks durabilty. lets just wait and see. i have the funny feeling that the thunder will do ok.

    a healthy howard – even though limited on offense – is an insane force and automatically gets you ANY team into the playoffs, yes i said INSANE. check the numbers, go back whatch tape. his defense and rebounding alone change games. even though he is pretty limited on offense didnt keep him from scoring quite alot. just look how that magic team did without him.

    bryant is a better player than howard skill wise but wont generate you more wins than d12 because of his style of play. please lets cut the media generated animosty and lets just rate a players performance.

    im not talking about how skilled a player is – im talking about generating wins as a measurement for my understanding of greatness.

  • danpowers

    i wont argue bryants talent or capability. but i dont understand what you mean by “robbed”. could you please explain?

  • Conor

    *his “peak-of-his-powers” prime

    His defence was élite too, as he was able to guard players like LeBron and Wade and Pierce and McGrady the length of the court.

    He has five championships, two of them were won when he had to ground his game much more than before.

  • bike

    Nothing KAJ says here is surprising. Bad injury + age = diminished performance. But Kobe is older, wiser, and considerably more mature. It will be interesting to see what kind of player he becomes over the course of the season. He’s not stupid. Sure, there will be some episodes of excessive jacking but he’s brilliant at adjusting to what his body gives him. Don’t count him out.
    After all, he is Kobe Motherfuc*in Bryant.

  • danpowers

    how did he got tobbed then? “mcgrady-eras” only happen when superior talent is surrounded by inferior talent. he put up great numbers when on bad teams, not very efficient tho. that is where you see that he doenst really make guys around him better like – say a nash, lebron or howard. he even does the same when on good teams, with the only difference that he slightly takes less shots when better players are around him.

    his defensive capability was never really in question, but his commitment. he often shifted a couple of gears back on D whenever he felt like saving energy for offense. this is where it gets back to the GOAT debate: lets ask ourselves here : what would jordan do? jordan was constant defensive terror.

    i would never argue that he didnt play a huge part in all this 5 championships. i also see him as very good player. but not as the goat and the margin between him and mj is pretty big if you look at all facettes of the game. plus, lebron surpassed him lately imo.

  • Ben Ireland

    Kobe was one of the best defenders in the game for most of his career. That he’s not now doesn’t take away from that. The efficiency I’ll grant ya, it’s very true. But there’s nothing Jordan did that Kobe didn’t do at a slightly lower rate. Look, Mike’s better. I was never arguing that at all. Mentally? Wow, far and away. But in terms of what he did on the court, Kobe could do absolutely everything MJ did, only less efficiently.
    My argument wasn’t Kobe versus MJ anyways haha, I just got sucked in. My point was with Shock about Kobe always having vastly superior teams. MJ was better. No doubt. I don’t wanna argue it cos no-one can.

  • Conor

    Sorry, not the NBA. Lakers fans. To have our second-greatest leader (and best player) not have the inveterate core of teammates required to compete for a championship was a terrible waste of time. Look at what he did before and at the end of his prime. When he was dropping 35.4, and twenty-seven forty-point games… Good God. He wouldn’t have needed to go on those sprees with a good team, that’s the point. He would have adapted, like he always had, for championships. Hence, late 2007- early 2011.

    The second Andrew Bynum became a legit second option (Odom was always best suited as the third scoring option) and Farmar/Vujacic improved off the bench, the Lakers contended for first in the West. Before Gasol (though Pau has always had the potential to be the championship-winning beast his beard ascribes). I mean, the universe cannot be founded on a void.

    KAJ, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Shaq, and LeBron have all experienced their greatest teams at the apex of their ability (also upon achieving a harmony of mind/body). Bryant, unfortunately, did not. If he had good teams, we may be discussing his proximity to Bill Russell. Miami in 2006? Cleveland in 2007? Simply what-ifs.

    All this to say: no matter how Kobe looks when he returns, even if it’s more Chauncey than Dominique (meaning, in my estimation, 22p/8a v. 27p/6a), he will always be a Laker and if he accepts the rust and allows Nash/Gasol to orchestrate the offence, they’ll be fine anyway.

  • http://soundcloud.com/tray-8 T-Ray

    Well to be fair the Suns were without STAT that year but I get what you’re saying

  • Conor

    He led a team consisting of rookies in Farmar and Vujacic, a third-year pro in Luke Walton, Kwame Brown (…), Smush Parker (…), (both of whom experienced the best seasons of their careers with Bryant) Chris Mihm (constantly injured), Devean George, Lamar Odom, and some ten-day contracts to 45 wins in the West (which would have seeded them fifth in the East, though you could probably add an additional ten wins to their tally since the East was so weak), seven games against the MVP’s Suns until the team stopped playing over its head, and others for three seasons of mediocrity. Two of which were mired by injury (04/05 & 06/07).

    Nash played 49 games last season and only just began running again last week… James/Howard have led teams to profound record where? Oh yes, in the East.

    Jordan had his fair share of games being lit up, let’s not revise historical precedent. He didn’t sag off of shooters the way Kobe does, but today’s shooters are superior, even upon a close-out scenario, so that’s not a harrowing caveat.

    Jordan was more consistent defensively, but to say that Bryant – given the contemporary limitations of less physical perimeter defence – isn’t, at his best, as good as Jordan at his best, is a fabrication.

    The G.O.A.T. is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, in my opinion, but I don’t want to get into defining labels, so to speak.

    There actually isn’t a large margin, as any of Bryant’s actual peers would tell you. smh; why do fans ignore what people IN THE NBA say about each other when critiquing players?! It makes absolutely no sense to me.

  • Conor

    *rookie Ronny Turiaf, as well

  • robb

    Well, everything Kareem said sounds pretty logical to me. Anybody who expects Kobe to instantly go out there and kill as usual are crazy. And maybe it’s not a bad thing, maybe that will allow the Lakers to play more like a team, they will move the ball more and the offense could flow better Let’s see.

  • Evan Boland

    Wait. Just wait. We will see. Please. Don’t crush my hopes yet.

  • Evan Boland

    We saw what happened to KD minus Westbrook. Kobe > KD. Kobe ALL NBA Defense.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    hey i said, “pretty much” – keep your hopes!

  • Evan Boland

    He also played in the West. Look who Lebron was playing in the Eastern Conference when he was alone. Not saying Kobe could carry a team as far as ‘Bron could, but just to be fair.

  • thebossman15

    All evidence seems too support none of your claims..5 rings and 30k plus points however support his arguable goat status. Next

  • Evan Boland

    The margin is actually quite wide. Coming from a Laker/Kobe fan.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    like i said, i’m not saying anything either way about Kobe. I think when people get worked up about it he either gets over or underrated…..he’s right around the top 10 ever discussion (depending on your POV), it’s safe to assume if given enough seasons by himself (talent wise), he would have led a team pretty damn deep for being by himself. if the 76ers could find a way to get Iverson into the finals while he shoots under 40%, it’s conceivable that Kobe could have carried a team just as far.

  • shockexchange

    Out of curiosity, which one of these guys did Rent-A-Center suggest get amnestied? As the theme from “Jeopardy” plays ad infinitum …

  • Busta213

    Sorry, but at the end of the day, the Lakers front line was impressive. Quite beastly in terms of size combined with mobility. The combination of Pau with Odom, Bynum (only needed for limited minutes) Ariza/Artest gave the Lakers front line size and mobility that most of the L simply could not contend with. The obvious exception was the Celtics, but KG being hobbled most of the time was too much to overcome.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    haaha, well you know misunderstanding are not something i’m a big fan of, so just give me a few minutes and i’ll usually correct it.

  • shockexchange

    Busta213 You are correct. A daily double!

    (i) A front line that only one other team could potentially contend with qualifies as “exceptionally more talent than the rest of the L” and,

    (ii) It was that front line that won those chips, not Horry Jr.

  • danpowers

    noted

  • danpowers

    not if you put it into perspective to all tangibles

  • danpowers

    what did kobe do without a co star again? uhm…

  • Ben Ireland

    I’ll grant you Duncan Shaq Jordan Magic Bird and Kareem. Shaq has a shorter shelf life but his peak was transcendant; I’d disagree, but I can see your argument and won’t fight it. Everyone else, they were better for your team.
    I’ll allow Lebron as well, I think he’s past Kobe’s greatest point, and he’s unbelievable for any team, I’d take him before Kobe too.
    Durant? Hell, no. Durant’s a scorer, and only a slightly better rebounder than Kobe despite being 4 or 5 inches taller.
    Wade? Hell, no. Kobe’s better. Wade’s less baggage but not so much that his career even compares with Kobe’s and he’s on the back slide now very early, whereas Kobe was on Year 17 of being amazing.
    Hakeem? Maybe. I’d even agree when that draft was happening, Hakeem SHOULD have been taken over Jordan. Not in hindsight obv, but at the time. Now though? Nah. Kobe has had a better career, and gives you a better chance to win in my opinion.
    Ewing? Really? I mean… REALLY?
    You can hate Kobe all you want, but he’s been incredible. If you were the GM of your team, you’d take those guys ahead of him, and it’d be absolutely your right to do so… And Kobe would spend the length of his career (and yours) proving exactly why you’re so wrong.

  • Ben Ireland

    Dude, when you’re relying on Dwight “Changes his mind every 3 seconds” Hoard to prove your point, you’ve already lost haha.

  • LakeShow

    With Nash, Blake, Gasol all getting massive PT while Kobe is coming back there will be a sh*t ton of ball movement. Excited to see that.

  • LakeShow

    I really doubt he does the 28-6-5 on 47% thing again. He might be better in a non-statistically related way though. More understanding of the game and a more willing passer would be the first two things I would think he could improve.

  • LakeShow

    No it doesn’t. STOP. Idiot.

  • LakeShow

    Not with Durant. He is just a slightly more efficient less good at play making version of Kobe.

    In a couple years we can re-hash this when he has undoubtedly improved.

    Agree with the rest though.

    Add Hakeem in front of most those guys though haha.

  • LakeShow

    Why wasn’t he efficient?

    Was Jordan efficient?

    Kobe scored 32 ppg on 23 buckets, as apposed to MJ’s “much better” 32ppg on 22.5 buckets?

    It’s a myth that KB is highly inefficient. He is above average efficiency wise and he is a volume scorer. Definitely an efficient scorer.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    it really is a myth. i hate that it has gotten to this point. see what i meant all those times we argued that i tried to get people to stop comparing Jordan to Kobe? Jordan’s outrageous efficiency is ruining Kobe’s legacy. Kobe is extremely efficient compared to everyone else.

    (Wade coming in with largely the same strengths Jordan had as a younger player and carrying similar efficiency is equally detrimental. But we all know Kobe in his prime > Wade in his. So that isn’t as big of an issue overall.)

  • LakeShow

    Well said man.

  • Evan Boland

    Same as most players, like MJ. Not much.

  • Evan Boland

    25-5-5 47% 35 min a game

  • thebossman15

    dude..he played with kwame f*kin brown and smush parker..gtfo here..he was at the biggest disadvantage arguably out of all the elite players in the league too even contend for a chip…lets not forget he was in the western conference as well when it was even more unforgiving then it is now

  • robb

    I’m really looking forward to it. Gasol and Nash will be fun to watch,both are skilled, smart and unselfish. Jordan Hill getting those boards, swaggyP going crazy. I think it will be fun, more fun than last season at least. I dunno I feel there’s a good vibe this year.

  • LakeShow

    It’s annoying to say obvious facts, but it’s just as annoying to let some-one be completely knowingly ignorant and not correct them.

    Chuck Hayes and Ben Wallace are the only 6’8″ centers they played against and both played center because they were best suited there and Wallace is an all time great defender. Top 10 probably.

  • LakeShow

    Why do you care about the 43% fg’s?
    That IS ignorant.
    He scored 31ppg on 22 buckets over the 2008 playoffs… That’s efficien for volume scoring.

  • LakeShow

    Back in the day I thought you hated KB and didn’t view his career with appropriate perspective. (vice versa i’m sure)

    Good to see we’ve both come to view him with a more accurate POV.

  • LakeShow

    Same, not championship vibe of the past few years, but just fun to watch, good basketball vibe haha.

  • robb

    exactly! The Lakers are actually underdogs. That’s kinda cool. Kobe would never say that though lol.

  • Conor
  • Conor

    Thank you, sir!

  • danpowers

    id say durant because kobe and durant are first and foremost scorers (even though both have pretty nice passing, rebounding and defensive skills, its obvious that kobe is a little more technically sound when it comes to anything besides shooting) because he needs less shots to score than kobe. that leaves more room to operate for his teammates. its a little early to judge durant or compare him to kobe’s early years as durant and westbrook are growing with a very young team while kobe had arguably the most dominant center on his side and some nice co-stars during their first title runs.

    well, hakeem on his peak above anybody else. he played on some pretty weak houston teams until he figured out how to dreamshake the sh*t out of everybody and how to make his teammates considerably better. thet rockets team that won against the knicks lacked a second star player. it was just insane how hakeem played that year. the next year wasnt less of an accomplisment even though he had drexler back then.

    its clear that ewing was not as half as talented as kobe was/is. id still rather have a center helping me to space the floor on offense, anchoring the defense and constantly firing up his teammates to build a team around. just please go back in history and look at all the players he had around him during most of his career – or more or less his whole career. imagine him havicng had a prime scorer next to him, just one.

    where am i hating on kobe? i said he is arguably the best 1 on 1 player ever (maybe except jordan) and that he was huge for the lakers in all the titles he got them. im just saying that he is not the kind of player who really makes / made his teammates better. if you compare him to jordan, wade or james he scored his 30k career points relatively inefficiently and also allowed himself quite some time-outs on defense (he always was a capable defender tho). whenever kobe had team success his supporting casts were better / more talented than his opponents. he earned the right to make the lakers his personal playground and to put up the me, myself & i career by commitment, hard work and living up to his potential. i wont argue that he is maybe the most talented player ever. but the way he plays just let first and foremost benefit himself and an architecture of a team has to be built around him in a way that a team is able to afford letting him play the way he plays.

  • thebossman15

    did you expect him too make it out with the players he had when those 2 werent there? are you that ignorant? nobody makes it out of the west without at least one other good player, let alone win a championship

  • danpowers

    because the 43% are characteristically about what i am trying to point out. in 6 finals series so far bryant averaged: 23 PPG, 5 RPG, 5 APG, 41% FG (267/645). there is no doubt that he is not only a good basketball player,but a great basketball player and i mean it. but he doesnt really make his teammates better.

    in the 29 finals it took him 27 shots per game to score 32ppg on 43fg%, you want to tell me that it doesnt take a team making up for low % scoring on such a high shooting volume? kobe homers always tend to suffer from a loss of memory when it comes to remembering on how many shots it takes bryant to score his points and also about his shot selection whenever he doesnt make every contested shots and also how his teammates enable him to do so and still be successful.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    man you people and your assumptions are awful.
    .
    i’m just explaining a point of view. the context of why he didn’t succeed is not what i’m worried about, it’s the fact that he didn’t. you don’t say, “Grant Hill is actually better than Kobe, you just aren’t considering that his career was ruined by injuries” do you?

    it’s not different (to me) when you are talking about “GOAT” — Kareem chose to go to LA. He WANTED out of Milwuakee. I’m not going to give him a pass because he chose losing in a bigger city. He didn’t give Milwuakee anytime to rebuild around him, he just quit on them……but hey, who remembers that right? let’s pick and choose what we remember.

  • thebossman15

    your the IDIOT, when people look back on a player’s career one of the first things that comes up is how much of a winner they were and their statistics.bSmh, everything else is just icing on the proverbial cake

  • danpowers

    never said he was supposed to win a title without secondary stars. just saying he never won anything whenever he was on a team inferior in overall talent compared to his opponents.

    that also makes sense when you look at how he plays. he is a great player, no doubt. but he plays me first most of the time and it takes a very good team to enable him to do so and still be successful while there are players who really make their teammates better by playing team first. thats just his player dna and mindset. by pure talent he is maybe the best of all time. but by terms of impact on team success he is second to james and jordan and maybe even a handfull of other big names as i stated above. even though he outweighs many of them in talent and skill level.

  • danpowers

    less than mj, less than olajuwon, less than james, less than kidd.

    i still believe kobe is / was maybe the most talented and skilled player of all time. just the way he scored his 30k points and played on 5 championship teams is second to some.

  • danpowers

    please check their stats, there is absolutely nothing kobe was more efficient or better at than jordan compared head to head throughout their playoff careers. http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=bryanko01&y1=1999&p2=jordami01&y2=2003

    if you put their regular seasons into the comparison the gap gets bigger, also bryant’s rookie and bench seasons excluded.

    i never said he was HIGHLY inefficient and i used the word GREAT to describe him. i just say that he is like a luxury commodity that not all franchises could afford to go at a championship with. its obvious that bryant needs a team to make up for his style of play more than he lifts up players on his team the way some other superstars did/do.

    you win more games with a team full of scrubs when you put any of the stars above into it than you’d win with bryant asur main guy.

    on the other hand, only few would be able to perform the way bryant did if being put in a similar situation. i dont want to let it look like his teammates lift him on their shoulders so that he can lay the ball into the hoop. that would be nonsense and not what i was trying to say.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    when i said i named my dog after Kobe did you think that was a joke? Kobe was my favorite player throughout later years of Grade School / Middle School / High School. I just don’t put my personal feelings ahead of my rational ones. Or I guess what I perceive to be rational.

  • LakeShow

    No.

    Kobe is my favorite player by far, ever. Just realistic. He is not GOAT and cannot lay claim to that in any serious sort of way.

    He can be YOUR GOAT, just not THE GOAT.

    Jordan = better winner, better stats.
    Ditto Bird
    Ditto KAJ
    Ditto Russell
    Maybe Hakeem

  • danpowers

    bryant is probably > everyone except jordan in their prime and even > than every other player ever in terms of skill and talent.

    he is efficient for a volume scorer, but volume scorers are not that efficient at all with the exception of jordan, wade and then in perspective kobe if you will.

    just because his superior supporting casts enable him to play the way he plays/played doesnt mean it would be easy for him or a lesser performance to score that many points and hit that many clutch and contested shots when the going gets tough.

    so regarding that impact on team success in terms of style of play and not talent: where would you rank kobe bryant to start a franchise with among all nba players? a) as a gm of a big market team, b) as a gm of a small market team?

  • danpowers

    co-sign hakeem, i was just trying not to get back too far in bball history, otherwise the list wouldve been a bit longer.

    sorry, slightly more efficient? did you see into what kind of scorer durant turned into lately? the last two seasons he put up a ts% of 62,9% and an efg% of 55,3% and he is just 24 years old. kobe at the same age had a 54,7% ts% and 48,7% efg% (55,5 and 47 career). to me that is not “slightly”. sure, kobe has the overall edge career wise because of his longevity. if id have to start a franchise today with young kobe or young durant id take durant tho. especially if i was gm of a small market team.

  • LakeShow

    If you don’t mind i’ll dive in here too :)

    Best players to start franchise with:

    MJ
    KAJ
    Hakeem
    Shaq
    Magic
    Bird
    Russell
    LeBron
    Kobe
    Wilt
    Wade

    That’s my quick rough list.
    Let’s argue! heheh

  • Busta213

    Way to cherry pick statistics, lol.
    Kobe has scored 31,617 pts while MJ scored 32,292 pts for his career.
    While MJ has taken 236 more shots than Kobe, the mamba has missed 932 more shots than MJ.
    This is while playing 4.4k less minutes than Kobe.
    There are some obvious gaps in their efficiency levels. The basic and advanced stats typically back that viewpoint up.
    It isnt a myth that Kobe couldve been more efficient with a better shot selection, but he always seemed to prefer “hero ball”.

  • danpowers

    two lists please. a) for a big market team, b) for a small market team. i would have kobe much higher on the a) list. same with mj. if i had a small market team id go with a great center or point guard over mj or kobe any time of the day. if id know that id have to start a franchise in a small market, not attractive for high caliber free agents, id even take ewing over bryant and i dont even have big pat in my top 10 center of all time list (the honest version lol).

  • LakeShow

    So you’re telling me that 32ppg on 23 buckets is allot worse than 32 on 22.5?

    Those numbers tend to compound over time. Right?

    Sorry that Kobe isn’t as efficient as one of, if not thee most efficient volume scorers ever.

    Let’s look at another season or two.

    1986-1987 Jordan scores 37ppg on 28 buckets with .535% fg’s
    2005-2006 Kobe scores 35.4ppg on 27 buckets with .450% fg’s

    Jordan got to the hoop 12 times a game that year.
    Kobe 10 times.

    I mean are these really something to write home about here?

    1991-1992 Jordan scored 30ppg on 23fga.
    2002-2003 Kobe scored 30ppg on 23.5 fga.

    I think i’m coming out on top with this one…

    Kobe is way more efficient than most people credit him for.

  • LakeShow

    I looked at Ewing closely. Almost gave him the nod. Going to lunch, i’ll be back.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    am i starting a franchise with them as rookies, or in this magical world are they in their prime from the jump? this really really matters.

  • LakeShow

    true!

  • danpowers

    i assume that those guys wouldve been even better and won more games, if bryant wouldve taken less contested shots and passed more (even when guys ask him not to – lol at kwame). i never said bryant was a bad player. im repeating myself over and over again in here: he is GREAT and maybe the most skilled / talented player ever. he helped these guys by drawing a big load of opposing defensive attention but still didnt improve their play in a way that you would see lebron doing (inferior east, but these series against e.g. the strong pistons werent too shebby neither). speaking of nash – just look what he did with the suns when stat was out or after he got traded. also in the west.

    howards magic did pretty well against western conference teams, too. he is just a beast when healthy and will help a bad team win more games. the way he dominates the whole defensive end is just incredible. bryant cant provide that, no perimeter player can. thats just an advantage of being big.

    “He didn’t sag off of shooters the way Kobe does, but today’s shooters are superior,” that makes sagging off shooters even worse and inexcusable lol. but i see what you are doing there. jordans time was more rugged defensively so he risked less fouls by being physical. but it wasnt only about his one on one defense. he would get so many passes, that teams avoided to run through the side of jordans defensive matchup. at some point jordan and pippen were arguably the best defenders on the planet. tell me when bryant has ever been close to that. he is an above average defender, but his all defensive team honors are more proof of his big name and reputation than actual defensive play. if you call this a fabrication, please go back and watch tape of both if numbers alone dont convince you.

    besides that – jordan always seemed a step faster and a little more athletic than bryant. while it is obvious that bryant was technically more sound, especially from long distance.

    jordan still managed to be more dominant on both ends of the floor. imo the numbers show that as well as watching both play. it feels pretty bitter btw to type all this as a knicks fan.

    kareem seems like a legit choice. i would take smbdy else, but dont see any reason to argue about your choice.

    define “large” margin. imo the margin is wide enough to be obvious.

    how do i argue what other nba players say when i state that bryant is a great player and maybe the most skilled / talented player of all time? i just said his style of play isnt necessarily what lets your team be better than how a hand full of other greats do/did.

  • danpowers

    you cant imagine how much that means to me lol. enjoy your meal

  • danpowers

    tough question. as rookies, convinced of their scouting reports implying how their prime would look like lol

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    can’t do that. the reason it matters is because their personalities would determine how the franchise is built. some guys calmed down as they got older, but that doesn’t make me want to build around them if i can choose a slightly worse player who people loved playing with.

  • danpowers

    then players entering their prime.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    lol ok,

    in their prime
    Big Market

    - Jordan
    - Russell
    - Shaq
    - Olajuwan
    - James
    - Bird
    - Magic
    - Wilt
    - Jabbar
    - M. Malone
    - Bryant
    - Oscar

    in their prime
    Small Market

    - Russell

    - Magic
    - Shaq
    - Olajuwan
    - James
    - Jordan
    - Wilt
    - M. Malone
    - Bryant
    - Bird

  • danpowers

    could you please explain to me why you would take bryant over bird in a small market team? isnt a superior facilitator worth more among inferior talent than a superior scorer?

  • danpowers

    oh… and if i still have a wish. not as rookies, but all at age 23 lol

  • bball knowledge

    I would put Lebron higher because he can carry teams deeper into the playoffs without help because Jordan needed Pippen before he advanced into the playoffs.

    Hakeen deserves to be higher because for those Rockets teams it was pretty much role players around him and not a solidified superstar or at least one that was in their prime.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    most simply, Bird would be too reserved in a small market, he would never help attract talent to a small city, he would just try and do it himself. Bryant would begrudgingly acknowledge the need for help.

  • danpowers

    that is one way to see it. one could also argue that he was very lucky to be born into a lakers franchise on the rise, getting to play next to the arguably most dominant force basketball has ever seen.

    nobody forced him to run shaq out of town and interviews with veterans like ron harper about his time with la imply that there wasnt really a pleasant atmosphere on the lakers during bryants first championship years. i think he is not totally innocent about being left alone after 2004 for 3 years.i can imagine that his reputation as a “bad teammate” (i didnt find another word) didnt really help to attract better players. that didnt look like a 100% voluntarely rebuild mode and imo being a good teammate is also part of being great / an important skill considering greatness. im also aware of the fact that jordan had the same reputation.

    imo bryant was still on the peak of his ability during his 3 recent finals appearences. his impressive achievement of a long nba career / longevity just turned out to be his nemesis back then as nagging injuries took its toll on his body. i consider his individual performance as impressive, im just stating that his style of play (or volume scorers in general) requieres more help to be successful than other type of superstars like a great big man or pass first guy like lebron.

    we all dont know as what he will return, but i dont know what you mean by “fine”. i guess bryant wants to content and his final ring to draw even with the goat. this lakers team just doesnt really looks like its going anywhere. itll be interesting to see how the next two free agencies play out. bryant still hasnt the best reputation in terms of being a good teammate (at least as far as ive heard. please correct me if im wrong. mea culpa in advance) and that howard situation didnt only let howard look bad. that could affect potential big name free agents negatively.

  • danpowers

    entering his prime he was already known for running shaq out of town and even today i didnt read or hear anything stating he wouldve improved his reputation as being a joy to play with. didnt i get something that changed about this?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    More along the line is the Bulls/Luol Deng part of that backlash. Shaq and Kobe was mutual, and Kobe wasn’t the centerpiece, it’s inherently the opposite of the Kobe/Shaq situation

  • danpowers

    id put either wade or kobe out of that list and get duncan and nowitzki in there. id kick wade out because of personal animosity and kobe for his not reputation of being a not so friendly teammate.

    i think its also easier to surround a good big man with a winning team than surrounding a good perimeter player with good assets.

  • LakeShow

    I forgot to add Duncan.(He’s top 8 for sure)

    Dirk is debatable also. You can go both directions with Dirk. A) He needs a perfect team around him to cater to his strengths. Or B) He is a one man wrecking machine with the right crew around him.

    Good points.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Sh*t….revisiting mine now

  • LakeShow

    LeBron had a much weaker conference to deal with than Jordan did. Evidence by being swept once to the big show. But most people would agree with you that LeBron is one of the tops in this category.

    Hakeem is obviously a talent of a lifetime, but with only two chips, it made me give it the other guys, even if their teams were more talented.

    Good points though man, I have to re-think some of this.

  • LakeShow

    F*cking Duncan man! Too quiet that I forget about him haha.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    No sh*t. I had to rush out of work to get home and just reorganized your list and included the players I already had in my mind that you’d forget… Lol

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Small market wise that empty space should be Duncan, but my phone is not letting me edit that comment. And it’s a show of respect to Duncan Because SA is a small(er) market and he’s had the most success. (Thanks to Pop and Buford but f*ck it respect is respect)

  • therichardkirby

    I forgot to add Dirk to that circle of people that carried a team. What he did in 2011 to win the title against the Heat was remarkable.

  • therichardkirby

    Dirk!

  • therichardkirby

    Again, offered as evidence to bolster a larger argument. Has Wade not made it out of the first round of the playoffs as “the man” on a team? Pippen took the Bulls to the Eastern Conference Finals. It is relevant to the larger argument of an all-time great player’s “superior supporting cast”.

  • danpowers

    true that. still, i wonder how far a team like the spurs wouldve gotton if they drafted a guy like eddy curry. guess some of that respect for duncan is pretty legit lol

  • danpowers

    true about dirk. i just didnt know which other center i wouldve called in. the admiral for his athleticism, big pat (or mourning) for his attitude or an old school stud like moses malone. its just that if youve got a center like that you “just” put a solid point guard and a spot up shooter next to him and shazam, youve got a contender lol

  • danpowers

    so bryant does not have the reputation to be a difficult teammate/personality?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    *Eastern Conference SemiFinals*
    -
    Unless you were trying to imply that Gasol and Bryant were equals it in no way shape or form supports your argument. That’s all I was trying to show you. But keep arguing going on about “haters” and Kobe being under appreciated while you make points that inadvertently contradict what you are trying to say….my bad

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    I’m complicated. That’s all this is going to end up to be.
    .
    I’ll try and make it as simple as possible,

    Kobe is such a psychopath I think he would force a team to win before Bird would do anything other than be really great at basketball for like 9ish years. He wouldn’t do everything in his power on and off the court to win. Kobe on the hand would be a maniac for 10+ years

  • The Seed

    Kobe will be the same, he is unlike any other player before him, even MJ. Kobe drive is greater than MJ’s. At the end of MJ career he got lazy and lost the drive, which why he retire. MJ got too much love, less hate. Kobe is getting more hate and less love. KOBE LOVES THIS STATEMENT FROM CAP. Mj then got the drive back, but did not fully get his body back in shape to lead the Wizards to the playoffs. Kobe will have is body is great shape, his mind in great shape and his will, will get him back to the throne of the VINO tagline. BOOK IT!!

  • grgeblck

    His knees are people’s concerns. You can change mentality but not an injured leg.

  • danpowers

    well, in birds time players recruiting players wasnt really popular – people tend to adjust to the times. also new training methods / diet plans etc should expand many star player’s careers. you could be right about the 9 years. but i suspect you to have left out quite some tangibles in that magic fairy tale scenario lol

  • danpowers

    you know who and how is giving out these all nba team honors, right? not so sure if it was that fair towards some other defenders by that time to give kobe these awards. looked more like people tried to artificially close the gap between him and jordan. numbers and tape tell a different story.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    I am never going to assume a persons personality will change, no matter how fictional the scenario.

  • danpowers

    were there any players in the 70s and 80s or even early / mid 90s recruiting each other? i never read about it (which clearly doesnt have to mean this didnt happen) and nowadays it seems to be wide spread. so i guess some things change with the time. on the other hand: even if bird wouldnt recruit anyone, which player in his right mind wouldnt love to play next to someone like bird? would recruiting really be necessary in his case?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Did you see LeBron’s last 2 years in Cleveland or nah?

  • Evan Boland

    Ha than you’re right with me no argument man. I always try to tell people Kobe is the most skilled player of all-time and they trip lool. He has more moves than anyone, and he needs ‘em, considering his playing style and the athleticism in the L these days. People love to tell me I’m just biased, and I AM a Kobe fan, I saw him in person when I was a youngster, my dad was a big Magic fan, so of course. But as I’ve grown and now watch all players I can see clearly. I’m no biased AT ALL. From what I SAW, no stats, eye test only, he was the third best player in the L last year. Him and CP3 were close but I give ‘em the edge based on the extra 8 games he played. But NO WAY did he deserve all the All Defense. It makes you wonder eh lol? It’s like the people actually involved in the L are absolutely clueless lol. Which at times, I think they are.

  • Evan Boland

    But thats just it. Thats what I argue against Kobe haters every day on here. Its not just stats, stars tell a good story but thats it. Kobe barely deserved ONE ALL NBA defense. He was an awesome defender but nothing special.

  • Evan Boland

    Ya that’s just it. About the top ten it depends how much you value longevity ynkow? Shaq was clearly, best season vs best season, better than Kobe, but Kobe was in the discussion for longer. Yet he was NEVER unanimously the best in L like MJ or Lebron.

  • havoc33

    people also never talk about how good a playmaker Kobe was. Phil comments on this in his books as well, how Kobe was their floor leader during their threepeat, and was the only one besides Shaw that consistently knew how to get Shaq going, and feed him with proper passes in the post. There is so much talk about fg% and efficiency these days you would think nothing else matters.

  • havoc33

    Since when was it decided that Kobe was just a scorer and nothing else? You’re seriously selling the guy short. Kobe was an excellent playmaker and allround player during all his championship runs. His defense, much scrutinized, always picked up during the playoffs. We certainly won’t be seeing Durant picking up opposing PG’s at half court anytime soon. You act like effeciency ranking and advanced stats is all that matters. SMH.

    I also find it hilarious that you would pick Durant over Kobe, given the fact that Durant has yet to win anything, and we are only about halfway through his career. Very, very premature.

  • danpowers

    i never said that kobe was just a scorer.

    he is indeed a great playmaker. his tendency to ignore teammates at times and take illadviced shots, just because he has the ability to make them, spoils this facet of his game a little bit.

    why should durant do that? instead of partially picking up opposing point guards he can partially take on opposing power forwards. you realized their difference in size and position, right?

    yes, bryant is a very capable defender and he switches it on when it matters the most. when did i say the opposite? i was taking on his all nba defensive team honors because there are always quite some guys who defend with a high intensity all the time. his awards on that side werent really justified imo.

    why is that hillarious? having durant on your team would get you less chemistry issues and more efficient scoring while bryant has other qualities. i also see bryant as the better overall player, i dont see why a guy like durant shouldnt have had the same success if you exchanged him with bryant on those successful lakers teams. even if durant continues his individual play / development and never wins a chip, id still chose him over bryant.

    id even pick one or two guys who never won a championship or less championships over bryant. bryant is a great player and second to none in talent, but people who try to put him into the goat debate tend to ignore he had the fortunate circumstance to spend many years on teams that surrounded him with extremely talented rosters. some guys were not that fortunate in their careers.

    without doubting his individual class or drive as a competitor: bryants style of play lets your team only win when the whole supporting cast is better than the other team. whenever the own team was inferior. even if just slightly, (evidence which implies that: the last couple of years) or when the talent level is about equal (evidence which implies that: 2008 finals) he wont win big. he is not a loser, i would never say that. his style of play just brings you rings when the rest of the roster is supperior compared to your opponents. he couldnt lift a team up in a way that olajuwon did in 94 or nowitzki in 11.

    i couldnt even imagine bryant to carry an inferior team like lebron (cavs), kidd or iverson to the finals. im aware that there is no proof as bryant didnt play in the weaker east and his opponents in the west during the lakers dog years were stronger than most teams those three were facing. i only found my oppinion on belly feeling based on what i have seen from the lakers and bryant during the last two decades.

  • havoc33

    You make some fair points, but still like you say we won’t know what Bryant was REALLY capable of in his prime on a quality, but not obviously a contender team. What does speak to his advantage is the fact that he pulled that crappy 06 team within one win from outing the Suns in the first round, when absolutely no one gave the Lakers any chance to make the playoffs that year. It was disappointing how that series ended for Laker fans, but the truth is still that they overachieved that year, and that was in large part to Kobe’s stellar play.

    And those chemistry issues you mention are so overrated. Kobe is an alpha, and he doesn’t gel all that well with other alphas, we know that. But why does that need to be a huge problem? Put another quality player next to him that is willing to play second banana, and you have an instant contender right there (read: Gasol).
    Some people don’t like to hear it, but Kobe in his prime usually had a very positive effect on his teammates. Players like Odom, Bynum, Gasol, Butler, Mihm, heck even Kwame and Smush, posted either career best numbers at that point in time or some of their best basketball playing alongside Kobe. And look at where some of those players are now, how they have performed without him. Not a good look.

    Phil pointed to this in his last book as well, how the Lakers during the last two championships really gelled because of Kobe, not despite him, as many of his critics would like it to be. There’s plenty of statements made by ex-teammates of Kobe, like Butler, Mihm, Odom, Artest etc, who all praised the experience of being his teammate. Butler even went as far to say that it was the best thing that had ever happened to him. The ones who did not get along, we obviously know why (Shaq: alpha, Howard: alpha (at least he thinks he is), Smush: need I say more).

  • Busta213

    I dont know how much more context you need beyond the fact that Kobe has missed more shots than anyone else in NBA history. It would be one thing if he had taken more shots than everyone else, but as mentioned in my previous post, he has not.

    Lol, no youre not coming out on top – by almost every measure MJ is clearly the more efficient player. Continue to cherry pick if you want though, lol

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    ehhhh, Evan, you realize Shaq was in or around his prime for 14 years right? that’s about the same as Kobe to this point.

  • LakeShow

    Wait… You thought I was arguing Kobe is as efficient as MJ?

    WTH man??

    “It’s a myth that KB is highly inefficient. He is above average efficiency wise and he is a volume scorer. Definitely an efficient scorer.”

    ^^How does this say KB is as efficient as Jordan^^

  • LakeShow

    WHERE DID I SAY THAT KOBE WAS AS EFFICIENT AS JORDAN???

    Sorry to go cap locks on you, but damn, I hate having words put in my mouth.

    I said:

    “It’s a myth that KB is highly inefficient. He is above average efficiency wise and he is a volume scorer. Definitely an efficient scorer.”

  • danpowers

    NEVERMIND! CAP LOCKING ME IS THE APPROPRIATE PUNISHMENT FOR MY MISUNDERSTANDING! WE GOOD, I FINALLY GOT YOUR POINT! ;)

  • Melvin flynt

    Lakers are done stick a fork in them!

  • Melvin flynt

    I’m excited see la get they ass whipped! Lol

  • Melvin flynt

    Jordan is the best homie!

  • Evan Boland

    Yep

  • Evan Boland

    Kobe was all-star in ’98, but I guess that wasn’t prime. But I wouldn’t say Shaq in MIA was prime, either. So I’d give Shaq about 11-12. Kobe 13-14. Closer than I had originally assumed, though. I kinda forgot Shaq was dominant from his first game.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    Shaq should have won MVP his first year in Miami bro…..and they won the title the 2nd year, with Shaq commanding double teams the whole time….why do you think Wade was able to shred defenses like cheese? because he was getting all the attention? no sir…

  • Evan Boland

    I didn’t say he wasn’t great. Just didn’t think he was PRIME. And ti was all over for him after the title. I honestly don’t know about your claim that he should have won the MVP his first year in MIA. Who won that year? KG? Or no it was Nash first MVP right?

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    yeah Nash’s first MVP….want me to show you some proof?

  • Evan Boland

    I just looked up the stats and was surprised. I’m not sure who else would have been in the running that year but based on the stats test he would def. be in the running. The next year, the championship year, he didn’t play 60 games though.

  • http://twitter.com/sooperfadeaway nbk

    yeah that’s why he didnt’ get that much credit… but he did play in those playoffs…there is one game in teh Finals they didn’t double team him, i think it was game 2..if you still have his stats from that year up, just click the year so you can see his game log.

  • Evan Boland

    Massive PT for those 3 = All Injured. Nash and Blake were both done for for us b4 they got to the playoffs.

  • LakeShow

    Massive PT means 30-35 mpg. That’s not too much for Blake or Gasol.

  • Evan Boland

    Yes, it is, IMO.

  • LakeShow

    IMO, you’re wrong.

    My reasoning, Blake… Of course he can play as much as he wants to. No arguing there right? So Gasol is who you are referring to right?

    Gasol is not an injury prone player. And he is only 33 years old. He has played over 36mpg for his entire stint as a Laker.

    Why do you think it would be bad to play Gasol between 30-35 mins?

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