The definitive ranking of the NBA’s best players.
by Sherman Johnson
Steve Nash is my dude. But he wasn’t always one of my favorite favorites until I saw him play soccer in Chinatown last summer.
It was August 2008, Wednesday or Thursday, I can’t recall. An Argentinean homie sent me an e-mail saying that his soccer team (amateurs from the United Nations) was
playing just for fun against some Italians from the national team. He invited me to join them since soccer is one of my favorite things outside of basketball. I was geeked, especially when I saw the ps at the bottom of his note: “Hey, by the way, I think Steve Nash will be playing with them…do you know him, German, the one who plays for NBA?”
Personally, I didn’t give an ish about the Italians. The only reason I cut out of the office in the middle of my workday was to get a look at Nash who I’d heard was just as good on the pitch than he is on the hardwood which I thought was ridiculous since he commits more of his time to focus on basketball.
It was raining like HELL when I arrived and so I was sure that Nash wouldn’t show. My homie was already talking about the match being canceled and wanted to head to a bar to drink away our disappointment. I was ready bounce when Nash suddenly appeared with a couple of friends beneath a huge umbrella wearing a blue Ambrosini jersey.
He walked over and said “Hey, guys!” like he was someone other than back-to-back MVP Steve Nash. A couple of Asian kids went ape shiite before I could and asked for his autograph to which he good-naturedly replied, “Not now guys! I’m here to play. After the game!”
I thought it was the best comeback line I’d heard all gloomy day. I wanted to give him a pound because. I’m thinking “There’s no way he’s gonna play in this rain” but he did, for more than an hour. I figure there’s no way he’s as good at soccer as he is at basketball. I was wrong. Steve Nash could play in the Italian major league if he wanted or represent the Canadian national team. He plays soccer just like he plays basketball: on the offensive. My homeboy’s squad got crushed but you wouldn’t think so from the expressions on their faces. They were happier than the Italians!
I figured Nash would murk out after the game since he was soaked and probably exhausted but again I was wrong. He stayed and took pictures and signed autographs and then talked a little bit about spending his off-seasons in New York City (where he met his wife around 2001) training with the Red Bulls. He even discussed plans to buy a stake of ownership in the Vancouver Whitecaps (his little bro Martin plays for the Whitecaps and has even made 30 appearances for the Canadian national soccer team), his investment in a women’s professional soccer league as a way of providing his twin daughters with positive role models to look up to, and a few of his humanitarian projects. Then he was Swayze leaving us kinda shook and thirsty. So we went for beers. A lot, in Steve Nash’s honor.
In retrospect I don’t know why I was surprised that Nash showed up and played in the rain. Afterall, he played with a gash in his nose the first game of the semis against the Spurs in 2007. Up until that moment I’d always respected Nash’s game, particularly since he came up in a major way from underdog to top dog. That game definitely made a believer out of me.
I’ve always admired athletes who excel at more than one sport: I figure their dexterity gives them an edge when it comes to competition. Which is why I like watching Kobe, Dirk and Nash, among others, compete. All three played soccer in their youth and it’s not a coincidence that all three are the cream of the NBA crop. Their perspectives on competition are different than the average bear. It’s like being able to play the guitar or piano. If you play one or the other then you can practically play them all. How well, is determined by the level of commitment and focus put into the endeavor. If you think I’m full of ish, take Lebron James and Tim Duncan and other superlative athletes like Deion Sanders, Bo Jackson and Master P into account before you diss me. Or scream on me for including Master P in that last sentence when I meant Roy Jones Jr.
But seriously, Steve Nash is my dude because his game reminds me a lot of Isiah Thomas’ in that he’s one of the most tenacious at his position, a fearless competitor who gives no quarter (only dimes!), and has the capability and determination to take over a game. Like Zeke, Nash isn’t one to let his size limit what he accomplishes on court. He’s dangerous from anywhere on the floor with that roving, all-seeing Terminator-like walleye that makes him a percipient passer and a crafty and creative playmaker. At 35 he’s still got the hyper drive to jump to warp on the drop of a dime and disappear and reappear like a genie on the toughest defenders in the League. Nash takes what defenses give him, whether it’s the three-pointer, lane, baseline, or alley-oop, he’s virtually unstoppable with his intelligence, court savvy and physical gifts that make him a true NBA superstar.
Nash’s career numbers in perspective:
GP GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG PP
934 775 31.1 .487 .432 .900 3.0 8.0 0.8 14.4
Nash led the League in assists three consecutive years: 11.5 apg in ’04–05, 10.5 in ’05–06 and 11.6 in ’06–07. His 90.0% average from the charity stripe is second best in NBA history. From beyond the arc, his 43.2 percent average is fifth-best in league history, and his total assists, assists per game, and three-point field goals made rank him as one of the top 20 players in league history. In addition, he is ranked fourth (starting from ’86–87) in regular season point-assist double-doubles. During ’05–06, Nash became the fourth player in NBA history to shoot better than 50 percent from the field, 40 percent from three-point range (43.9), and 90 percent from the line, joining Larry Bird, Reggie Miller and Mark Price, a feat he would repeat in the ’07–08 and ’08–09, becoming the first player in NBA history to shoot such percentages for three straight seasons.
A two-time MVP, Nash is only the second point guard (along with Magic Johnson) to win the MVP award multiple times and the third guard in NBA history to earn back-to-back MVPs (joining Johnson and Michael Jordan). Only eight other NBA players have won back-to-back MVP awards: Johnson, Jordan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Moses Malone, Larry Bird, and Tim Duncan.
Notes
• Rankings are based solely on projected ’09-10 performance.
• Contributors to this list include: Jake Appleman, Brett Ballantini, Russ Bengtson, Toney Blare, Shannon Booher, Myles Brown, Franklyn Calle, Gregory Dole, Emry DowningHall, Jonathan Evans, Adam Fleischer, Jeff Fox, Sherman Johnson, Aaron Kaplowitz, John Krolik, Holly MacKenzie, Ryne Nelson, Chris O’Leary, Ben Osborne, Alan Paul, Susan Price, Sam Rubenstein, Khalid Salaam, Kye Stephenson, Adam Sweeney, Vincent Thomas, Tzvi Twersky, Justin Walsh, Joey Whelan, Eric Woodyard, and Nima Zarrabi.
• Want more of the SLAMonline Top 50? Check out the archive.
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Not a bad ranking i think, he’s not the kind of player who will drastically regress. Plays below the rim and is the best shooter in the league, that kind of game tends to age better.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure SLAM totally changed their ranking criteria midway through this list, LOL. I remember from like 35-50 it said at the bottom, “Rankings are solely based on ’08-09 performance.” Now it says they’re solely based on PROJECTED ’09-10 performance. Wow, tell me I’m not seeing things.
Who would you want on your team this year? You decide.
No question Derrick Rose has the higher ceiling right now and if I were building a franchise, that’s who I would go with no questions asked. But this isn’t about the next couple of years; just this upcoming one.
@Eboy – Co sign man, if you average 40 ppg, but the player you guard drops 45 … who cares!!
Will: Chris Paul had a terrible sophomore year and everyone was right. Just saying.
I been saying that for YEARS.
You’re right about Nash, but don’t make vast assumptions about how Rose can play in any system seamlessly.
I see why. I’ve discussed many times.
I like Nash, but I stan for Rose. Like somebody said up above, he’s the Lebron of point guards. Just a freak of nature. He’s what Wade would be if Wade was actually a point guard.
Don’t forget, in his first playoff game he dropped like 30 with I think 8 assists against arguably a top five defensive point guard in the league. He was actually toying with Rondo for a minute.
Personally, I think the rules changes, plus the system, plus an upgrade in the athleticism of his running mates is what made the difference. Now Nash’s confidence has grown, and that helps, but I think it’s those other factors more than Nash just “improving” as a player.
And also, I get your point with stat, but Thomas and Noah really should be good finishers– that’s the only way I see them existing for long careers in the NBA.
Remember how awfully Duhon played the latter end of the season?
Lebron James
Dwayne Wade
Dwight Howard
Kevin Garnett
Carmelo Anthony
Deron Williams
Chris Bosh
Tim Duncan
Paul Pierce
Dirk Nowitzki
Chris Paul
Brandon Roy
Kevin Durant
Derrick Rose
Chauncey Billups
Amare Stoudemire
Danny Granger
Tony Parker
Pau Gasol
Joe Johnson
Duhon was logging crazy minutes, plus he has a drinking problem. Just like in Phoenix, the Knicks used no bench, and so all those players who weren’t used to playing all those minutes were on their last legs at the end of the year.
The fact that Duhon KILLED at all should have been enough proof that the system is insane. WE’re talking about CHRIS DUHON! (Who, by the way, played on the same youth basketball team as me when I was 12. And nobody thought he was going pro back then.)
Mike D has proven his players put up numbers, period. Steve Nash has proven that without playing in Mike D’s style, his numbers are nowhere near MVP level. Which is why Terry Porter no longer has a job.
He was guarding Rajan Rondo when he transformed into a triple double machine, right?
Allenp, Rose isn’t a good defender (yet), but he’s still MUCH better defensively than Nash “The Revolving Door” ever has been. For all the talk of Nash’s superior smarts, balance and coordination, there’s no reason why he’s not even a passable defender. At least Rose tries on that end.
pierce
bosh
james
rose
granger
howard
johnson
wade
parker
duncan
mcgrady
ming
nowitzki
paul
anthony
roy
williams
durant
bryant
gasol
stoudemire. who gets the shaft?
While Nash put up 15 and 11?
The Heat won around 60 games, same with the Suns. Let’s compare the starting fives. For the Heat, you have Shaq, Damon Jones, Eddie Jones, Haslem and Wade. For the Suns you have Q-Rich, Joe Johnson, Shawn Marion, Amare and Nash.
And people still believe Nash deserved that MVP? Come on now. The second MVP isn’t even debatable. Kobe had the best individual season since MJ while carrying a team of bums, while Lebron dropped 30, 7 and 7. Yeah, Nash’s 18 and 10 were nice, and it’s cool the Suns were still contending, but come on. Kobe and Lebron deserved it.
You’re right, it wouldn’t. Because Nash would have the same number of MVPs as Chris Paul.
Is there any where you can find the hole list so far?
The West was tougher. The Suns had better talent. WAY BETTER talent. The first MVP was a shammockery. You argue that Shaq wasn’t the best in the league, are you arguing that Nash WAS! You can’t be serious. And if best in the league is the criteria, than Kobe, Lebron or Wade win the second MVP hands down. Because they were all better than Nash that year.
Now, the second MVP was a direct result of the first MVP. The common logic was that if Nash has better numbers this year compared to last year, and he has less talent, well dammit he has to be MVP again.
Of course, this is crap. First, Nash still had a bonafide all-star in Marion, who was putting up 20 and 10 before he met Mr. Nash and actually picked up the slack greatly with Amare out. People like to down Boris Diaw, and he has some issues, but the reason he sucked for the Hawks was because they had him playing TWO GUARD! The Suns move him to center, play small ball, and all of a sudden his passing and versatility become pluses. Raja Bell ain’t great, but he’s a solid defender and he makes open shots. Tim Thomas gave the Suns great minutes in a contract year. And, with all that, they still got taken to SEVEN GAMES by a Lakers team that was Kobe, Lamar and the bums!
Nah, Nash didn’t deserve either of those MVPs, although his performance the second year was great. First year should have been Shaq, second year should have been Kobe or Bron. I mean, people hype Nash’s performance his first year in Phoenix, but I don’t remember anybody saying Ray Allen should have been MVP and his Sonics team had an even crazier turnaround that year with far less talent.
That best player on the best team crap is something that was pushed in recent years. That wasn’t always the criteria. Hell, Shaq was the best player on the Heat, at least as far as the numbers go.
Kobe
Wade
Dwight
Paul
D. Will
Garnett
Bosh
Durant
Dirk
Melo
Paul. P
Roy
Duncan
Granger
J.J
Billups
Amar’e
Gasol
Rose
Parker
Are we seriously arguing that Nash had WORSE talent around him than Wade and Shaq?
speaking words of wisdom, let it be.
And in my hour of darkness she is standing right in front of me,
speaking words of wisdom, let it be. Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be.
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.”
The had those cats the SECOND year Nash won. Not the first year. The first year was the team I named up top.
If it’s not about stats, then the main justification for Nash in his second MVP year wouldn’t have been “But all his stats went up.”
Every other modern MVP of the league has had phenomenal stats. Every one. We aren’t talking about back in Bill Russell’s day when it was all about championships. After all, Nash hasn’t won jack. It’s been about stats for decades, and then we have an MVP put up 15 and 11 with 50 something wins. Do y’all realize that if this was the criteria John Stockton would have been MVP multiple times? Let’s not even discuss Isiah Thomas, or even Gary Payton.
This whole “intangible” argument was a justification used so that media folks could vote for hte guy they wanted to vote for. He supposedly “changed the game” and “turned his team around” but that’s crap. Mike D change the game with his system. Nash had arguably the best starting five in the entire league. And his stats were nice, but not amazing.
Those are the facts.
You sir are a unique little dude.
You fighting the last fight. I didn’t even mention the defense. I can’t make the defense argument and still call for Kobe, Lebron, Wade and Shaq to win the MVP back in the day. Out of that bunch, only Kobe paid any attention to defense when Nash won those MVPs and Kobe wasn’t even elite back then because of the offensive load he was carrying.
My point was that there were things said the defend the Nash MVPs and when you really look at the reasons, they don’t make sense.
NBK hit the nail on the head, and that’s what I’ve argued for a long time, along with some thoughts about race and the NBA. The fact is, the media reached to give Nash that first MVP. When you look at the stats and team success, it’s obvious that either Wade or Shaq had better years than him.
Shaq put up 23 points, 10 rebounds and 2 blocks
Wade had 24 points, 7 assists, 5 rebounds and 1.6 steals.
Nash put up 15.5 points, 11.5 assists and 1 steal.
Both teams won 60 games.
Do y’all realize that after Wade and Shaq, the next highest scorer was Eddie Jones who averaged 13 points on 43 percent shooting?
That Damon JOnes was the starter?
Then you look at the Suns and you have Amare putting up 26 and 9, Marion with 19 and 11, Joe Johnson with 17, 5 boards and 3 dimes and Q-Rich putting up 15 points.
Nash didn’t turn his team around. He played with one of the most loaded rosters in the league with everybody healthy. Period. He didn’t change the game, period.
He put up nice numbers, played a cool style, and happened to the right height, size and color to make people feel good.
And his second MVP was the direct result of the first one.
He just caught Marion in his prime, Amare near his prime and Joe Johnson near his prime. When you look at their scoring numbers, the only person to make a big leap was Amare. True, the shooting percentages for the Suns went up across the board, but that’s tied to Mike D’s system, with a nod towards Nash as a playmaker instead of Marbury as a scorer.
Bottom line, the myth that Steve Nash “made” these cats better is just a myth.
Why is it important what Marion and Q-rich did after Nash, but not important what they did before Nash?
Isn’t it logical that players will have worse years as they age? Q-rich has been injury prone for years, and both he and Marion went to teams that didn’t suit their skill sets. So, yes, they’ve played worse, but they played just as good, or better in Richardson’s case before they met Nash.
Billy Magnum
What’s amazing is that you assume that we all hate Nash’s MVP’s because we can’t stand to see a white dude prosper, but you would probably argue to the death that his MVPs had nothing to do with the fact that he was white and so are most media members. Moreoever, I don’t get your point about Stockton. Check out hte players on the Suns team that Nash passed to and tell me he didn’t have it just as good if not better than Stockton. And I’d argue that the West was better in Stockton’s day than it is now.
That’s truly amazing.
As far as Iverson, nah, he didn’t deserve it, I don’t think. His numbers were bananas, but his team was pretty wack. At least Lebron could argue he got the Cavs to 50 wins back then. Even Kobe got those bums to the playoffs for two straight years in a tough conference.
What is the basis for your argument that Qrich and Marion had their best seasons alongside Nash?
It can’t be stats because they don’t back it up. I had a partner who was a Nash fanatic and we would go back and forth, some I’m very much aware of all of the stats of the players Nash played with. And Q-rich and Marion had better seasons before they met Steve Nash. I would advise you to look at the career numbers for both Raja and Diaw. Raja’s scoring averaging increased by a whopping TWO POINTS in Phoenix compared to Utah. UTAH! Diaw had a massive scoring increase his first year in Phoenix, which just so happened to be a contract year. After that, he promptly averaged fewer than 10 points, a scoring average he increased by FIVE points playing Charlotte without Steve Nash. Given the changes in Diaw’s playing time when he came to Phoenix and the new system, it’s amazing that all of his success has been attributed to Nash.
Here’s the deal.
If Nash had started his whole career and put up 17 and 9 for his whole career, he wouldn’t have won MVP. Part of his “mystique” is this underdog myth that has been built around a cat who got drafted number 15. Nash has had great years and is a great player, but he is not a two-time MVP. He just isn’t.
My bad if you were being sarcastic. It’s hard to pick up sarcasm in written form, particularly if you know nothing about the person making the comment. I took you seriously because cats have actually made that argument to me.
I agree that the East and West have different eras of dominance, but that doesn’t have much to do with Nash in my opinion. When he was killing, the best teams in the west were the Spurs (true champs) and the Mavs (paper tigers). Sure, the West was better than the East, but it wasn’t exactly murderer’s row.
Make the argument that Nash made his teammates better. Prove it based on something tangible. Amare’s scoring jumped six point and his shooting percentage skyrocketed.
Then again, the same thing happened to David Lee with Chris Duhon feeding him the ball.
oj mayo is on here, and rose had a better season than him
I’d agree that the west wasn’t exactly ridiculous during those years, but compared to the east, it’s not even close. Quantifying how to make your teammates better just doesn’t work, one needs to really watch and understand the game to see that (of which I don’t believe the majority of media writers are capable). Drawing double teams, creating open shots, hitting that cutter at EXACTLY the moment he comes open to get a good shot, etc. are what makes your teammates better. We get too caught up in stats, let’s leave that to baseball, because this game we love is too complex for just stats.
What are you making the argument that “he made them better” based on? What?
Amare has no new post moves becuase of Nash. His jumper isn’t because of Nash. He does not have a better understanding of passing because of Nash.
What do any of these players do BETTER because of Nash? I don’t understand this. Steve Nash made them better compared to what? Playing with Howard Eisely?
If you discount stats, then give me what you do count and we’ll discuss that.
Good examples of what you’re talking about.
Now, that explains why Nash is a great player. It doesn’t explain how he “made his teammates better” than they were playing with Jason Kidd and Stephon Marbury. He might be better at certain things than those two players, but how did his performace make his teammates any better than what Shaq and Dwade did? Hell, has anybody heard from Shandon Anderson, Eddie Jones and Damon Jones since Shaq and Wade carried them to the Game Seven of hte East Finals?
I agree with you.
Then cats need to stop saying he makes them “better.”
In Mike D’s offense, the point guard is without a doubt the most important player on the floor. It’s not even debatable. The point guard dominates the ball, he’s responsible for setting everyone up, he must make the right decisions. It’s kind of like what Peyton Manning does for the Colts.
So of course Nash is the most important player on the team. And of course he sets up his teammates. But, the logic has always been “he makes them better.” Better compared to what? What are we basing this comparision on? Wins? Stats? Happiness?
That’s the big problem.
Steve Nash runs the team and he’s great at it. But, does that make him MVP? Because he ran a team of great players and they won games? That’s cool, but MVP of the entire league?
I don’t see it.
You had to be on a great team, and absolutely KILL. That was the general rule. KG did it. Chuck did it. Duncan did it. Mike did it. Shaq did it. Bird did it.
For Nash, they changed the whole damn game.
I agree with you completely.
Bryan does not.
BETCATS, I’m not saying that pointguards don’t play defense, just that it only makes sense that they would play “less” defense because of their natural role on a bball squad. Payton was a freak of nature, really if anything. At all the other positions, how often is a center named DPOY? How about a small forward? Even shooting guards are more likely to win DPOY. It’s because they lack the necessary duties of a pg, which is to bring the ball up court. I don’t doubt that what the Glove did was amazing, because what he did was nothing short of it. But realistically, how many players have we seen that exert just as much tenacity on offense as they do on defense? I think where I’m going with this should be clear by now. 1) Gary is a VERY big exception and 2) for the most part pg’s won’t play D because it’s damn exhausting to do everything else AND play good D. Hope this is making sense to everyone.
I don’t even need to say nothing after that last long post. I’ve been feeling like that for months, but every time I brought it up, cats like my buddy Jukai told me I was tripping and that Terry Porter was just a loser.
I think Rose and Rondo will be better than Nash next year. Not Nelson.
Bryan
It’s cool if we disagree. That’s just life.
All great players carry a crazy load. You telling me Nash’s load is greater than the load Jordan, Olajuwon, and David Robinson carried? How about John Stockton?
Nah, I don’t buy it. Point blank, Steve Nash just ain’t interested in defense, it’s cool. Neither is Allen Iverson. But, I get tired of folks pretending that he really is playing good defense and the rest of us are just being crazy with our expectations.
Now if i only had some fu(king hair I’d pull it, faster than a bullet
Out of Tupac’s chest before the ambulance came too late to do it
I’m trying to grow it back again, it was an accident
I had my back against the fan and chopped it off in Amsterdam
I hate the straight jacket it aint latching, and can’t lock it
So they stapled my hand to my pants pockets
The cell’s padded and battered like someone else had it
Before me, and just kept throwing they fu(king selfs at it
My head is aching, I’m dedicated to medication
But this med is taking too long to bring me this sedadation? “
You’re wrong. Tons of point guards play defense. In the current NBA we have, Rondo, Billups, Andre Miller, Jarret Jack, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Rodney Stuckey, Chris Duhon, Kurt Hinrich, etc.
I’m not saying they’re all great, I’m saying they play. Playing point guard is hard work, but that doesn’t mean you get a pass on defense. Being the main scoring option and fighint through double and triple teams is hard work as well.
You compared Deron Williams to Bruce Bowen. I stopped reading.
There are and always have been dozens of point guards who played good defense and ran the team. In fact, the old school job of a point guard was exactly that. Eric Snow, Avery Johnson, Jacque Vaughn…These cats have made a career of running the team and playing defense.
The responsibility of the point guard depends greatly on the team he plays for. Mo Williams doesn’t have the same duties as Deron Williams, or even Chris Duhon.
I used other superstars because Nash fans generally consider him to be a superstar. As such, he carries a heavy load. My point was that is par for the course, and it doesn’t mean he gets a pass for not playing defense. Sure, I understand that it’s more difficult to play defense when you’re working hard on offense. I respect that. But, I’m tired of cats basically telling me that I really don’t understand defense because I’m watching Steve Nash effing quit on his team on defense. When I watch Tony Parker call seven straight clear outs in a playoff game just so he can go one-on-one against Nash, without the aid of a pick, then that’s a problem.
I say the same thing about my favorite player, Allen Iverson. Neither of them plays defense. They just quit.
I read the rest of your comments. We seem to be on the same page, you just seem to think I don’t respect how hard Nash’s job is.
That couldn’t be more false. I respect him and everybody else in the NBA. Basketball is crazy hard to be good at. I’m just frustrated by people actually trying to argue that Nash isn’t al that bad on defense. It just isn’t true.
Allenp, regarding DWill and Bowen, I wasn’t comparing the players, rather their respective positions and comparing the differences. I guess picking a different pg would of done me better justice.
look, hes going to be top 5 PG but even Nash is better today, maybe even Rondo… also..Gasol is 10 times the player Amare is!!!!!
have you guys heard of passing skills, rebounding and mainly DEFENSE!?!?!?!its not even close, only thing Amare has over him is atlheticism, which I respect but came on!!! its basketball, not an olimpyc jumping contest..peace
If Shaq and Wade didn’t play together, I’d agree that either of them deserved MVP over Nash. They did. And just like Garnett/Pierce dominating together, neither of them can get MVP because they have each other. Nash was the sole ‘talent’ on that team. Amare was a great finisher at the time, but when Nash was out, Amare would average downright Artis Gilmore level numbers in turnovers. None of them could play without Nash.
Nash was also reviving a franchise (don’t give me that injured crap, they weren’t winning 60 games without Nash) while averaging an immense number of assists while reviving the importance of the point guard position (I know, Kidd was first, but for some reason, people didn’t really style their game after the dude. I dunno).
And the MVP has always been about winning. That’s one thing Allen always says that weirds me out. Chamberlain scores 50 points for a season on 50%. Russell wins MVP averaging 17 points on .42% shooting (less rebounds too). Why? Boston was obliterating everyone. It is ALWAYS about winning. Now, the 70s changed that, with a couple of dudes getting the MVP without winning. Go back to the 80s, it’s about winning again. I don’t know how you can argue against this.
I remember Ainge and Thomas complimenting Nash for his scrappy defensive plays.
Also, Nash did make Marion, Raja, Diaw, etc. etc.
Raja Bell had a rise in points and percentages in Phoenix while taking more shots. Diaw had a huge resurgence, and while he’s averaging more points in Charlotte, it is nowhere near how much he should be averaging with his minutes increase, and his percentages are all down and his turnovers skyrocketting.
Steve Nash MADE Shawn Marion. That’s not to say Jason Kidd and Stephon Marbury didn’t also make him. Shawn Marion needs a good point guard to play. I’ve said this a bajillion times.
Plus let’s not forget Tim Thomas, Q-Rich, James Jones, Brian Skinner…
I think the “Nash publicly throwing his coach under the bus” is overblown though.
You know who played the most clutch for the Bulls during the playoffs? B. Gordon. If he doesn’t hit those off-balance, game changing jumpshots, the Bulls get wasted in 5.
And Marbury was a beast in his day. Why do you think I hate Marbury? I don’t really have an opinion of the dude.
Bryan: I remember VERY clearly Ainge talking about how he respected Nash for his scrappy defensive plays. Not man on man defense, but how he’d dive for the ball to throw it off a man, take a charge, grab a steal, etc. etc. Nash was very active in his Mavericks days. Saying he was always an abysmal defender is just pure exaggeration.
He’s ALWAYS been a sucky defender. But hew as once just subpar.
But he never came out and said “This coach sucks, f Porter.
Now, he DID get Porter fired… because Porter was not the man to go back to the run-and-gun offense. But I don’t think Nash really heavily hated on Porter.
I could easily change my mind if you found articles stating otherwise. I think someone once told me Nash threw him under the bus, but never cited where he saw it. Maybe I missed it. To me, it just seemed like Nash was upset with his team losing because they couldn’t adjust to another style… and NOT the coach. He liked Porter.
Porter was also one of the biggest, wimpiest coaches ever.
Barkley was a really bad defender, but was never one of the worst.
I will defend Nash partly and say that his back really does hold him back from playing lock-down D. I think Nash really did try: I remember when they had Nash providing weakside help and double teaming. It worked for a while when they had Kurt Thomas manning the paint, but once they lost him, they’d just pass to an open man for the easy layup because Amare can’t hold down the paint for jack sh–.
Mo Williams sucks balls on defense. True that, but he isn’t Steve Nash.
I get the hate people have for Steve’s D. It really can be better. Everything else everyone is saying is just hate, but Steve’s D is pretty bad.
WHAT I WILL SAY THOUGH: I feel bad because if Steve Nash had a big in the post, LIKE GARNETT, who could run but also guard the paint, people would not notice his glaring defensive weaknesses as much. Nash never had that in Phoenix. So whenever someone blew past him, it was end game. other teams with other bad defensive players have the luxury of a big who can guard the paint. Steve never had that. Poor dude.
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But I’m only halfway through this comment barrage. So that’s probably not relevant to the Nash debate right now.
you are resolved to hating steve nash and there’s no way anybody is going to change your mind on that so to that account it’s pointless to argue with you, but here’s a few pointers: 1- Steve Nash took a team that won 20 something games to a team that won 60+. That by itself was a huge turnaround and players that do that deserve to be looked at. He was the catalyst to that team and also their identity. It’s kind of like the 2003-04, season when the Spurs won the NBA championship – apart from Duncan who else was on that team that was credible – rookie Manu, rookie Tony, a retiring DR?? a headcase in stephen jackson? Duncan led that team to a championship despite being the sole all-star and nobody gives him credit for it because they think he had all those players who are great now. Nash in the same sense made a mediocre team great and he should be given credit for the career stats that every single one of those players had.
2- as for his defense, he is a small pg and for that purpose he couldn’t guard a lot of the other guards. but guess who let the nba in charges during nash’s mvp years- it was stevie he did all the little things and that made up for his deficiency. and you guys talk about steve not being able to guard cp3 or deron or tony – well 90% of the league can’t guard those guards and there’s a reason those pg’s avg their 18 pts and 10 asts – an avg is taken over the course of 82 games not 3-4 games (the number of times any given team faces the suns).
3- steve nash’s numbers were amazing. don’t look at the pts and asts this guy gets but check out his shooting %. He shot over 40% from 3′s, over 50% from the field and over 90% from the line and he did that 3 years in a row. NO player in NBA history accomplished that kind of consistency in scoring – so to say he doesn’t deserve his MVP awards makes no sense.
4- perhaps to you guys losing amare and joe johnson isn’t that big of a deal, but people pegged the suns to possibly finish somewhere around the 7th or 8th seed, but surprise again nash ensured they didn’t miss a beat. You talk about the suns having amare? the matrix? q-rich? well consider how those players play when nash is either on the bench or injured. we all know where q-rich’s and the matrix’s career is now, but here’s a number to all you nash haters – check how many times amare scored over 20 pts in the games that nash sat out.
Pull Marion’s career stats. YOu will see that his scoring, rebounds and percentages are roughly the same with Marbury, Kidd and Nash. In fact, the biggest changes in scoring happen depending on how well Amare is playing. If Amare is killing, Marion’s scoring goes down. If Amare is just playing all right, or he’s out, Marion’s scoring goes up.
Q-Rich put up better numbers in LA. Brian Skinner was a bum for both teams. Tim Thomas was rejuvenated because he had a coach tell him to jack up threes and don’t worry too much about defense. Diaw has put up better number in Charlotte, nad actually only had one year in double digits in Phoenix. Raja was putting up similar numbers in Utah. Come on people, I’ve actually tracked these cats careers.
I’ve seen Tony Parker give Allen Iverson trouble on defense. The year Denver played San Antonio in the first round, the Spurs had so much success because they were able to put Bowen on Carmelo and leave Parker on Iverson without getting torched outside of Game One.
Steve Nash and Tony Parker aren’t even in the same zip code on defense. Now, Bibby, yeah, he sucks. But, like you said, he wasn’t MVP.
Since I’m a hater, I’m only going to address one of your points.
Yes, the suns won 20 games the year before Nash came. Did you know that Amare and Joe Johnson were injured for huge chuncks of that year, and that they traded Marbury for HOWARD EISELY midseason? Did you know there was coaching turmoil the entire season?
Did you know that hte year before they won 20 games, they won 40+ games, made the playoffs, and if I’m not mistaken, scared the crap out of the San Antonio Spurs in the first round? I can’t remember if they won that series, but it was crazy close.
So, you’re right, they are just like the Spurs were before they got Duncan. The Spurs were a regular in playoffs. They had their best player sit out the entire year, got a high draft choice, and then proceeded to get right back to winning a bunch of games. They weren’t a bad team despite their record, just like the Suns.
Thanks for listening to my hate.
So, what I’m saying is, Marion played better getting passes by Nash than he did getting passes by Kidd. You know, just saying.
You know, I’m seeing you don’t actually watch Phoenix basketball, do you.
Q-Rich played WAY better in Phoenix than he did in LA. It’s not debatable. Ignore the stats man. Brian Skinner was instantly relevant in Phoenix, he was actually scoring, dude had never done that before. Raja Bell had one decent year in Utah but once again, his percentages and scoring rose across the board when he came with Nash. Now? Barely a factor.
And once again, Diaw is getting twice the minutes, throwing away the ball like a hot cake, scoring inconsistently, and really, he isn’t playing like everyone said he would with all those starter minutes. He was better under Phoenix’s system as a reserve.
And good giving D’Antoni credit for Tim Thomas’ resurgence. I’d like to point out he played again with that same coach and had one good game and then immediately played terribly every game after.
But I’ve already said all of this to you. So I guess it’s in one ear, out the other.
Uh oh! I’ve given everyone more fire power!
It’s true though, Steve Nash held back Joe Johnson hardcore. Joe needs the ball to be effective. If you want me to be honest, Nash could never play with someone who needs the ball to be dominate. They would not coexist.
I explained Richardson and Marion. Richardson went the Knicks, gained 50 pounds and was constantly injured. He already had back problem in Phoenix. I would argue that his game was MUCH more diverse in LA wehre he was slashing, posting up and hitting the occasional three pointer. When he came to Phoenix he became a three point shooter only and his shooting percentages PLUMMETED. I notice you left out that key factoid in your discussion of shooting percentages.
And you give Nash the credit for the increase in Marion’s stats because of what? I thinkt he style of play was the big difference, not Nash. Oh yeah, it’s amazing how cats claim that Marion and Q fell off without Nash, but ignored that Dirk and Josh Howard did JUST FINE when he left. They actually got better.
Marion fell off becauase he went from a fast breaking wide open style to a semi halfcourt style in Miami with far fewer touches. Then he went to Toronto and got even fewer touches. The fact is, Marion averaged 19 and 10 with both nash and Kidd, and averaged 20 and 9 with Marbury. The shooting percentage increase is just as easily tied to Mike D, since we saw similar raises for Nash as well, as it is to the wizardry of Steve Nash. Nash was great in that system, but let’s be honest about how that system was tailored to fit his game and the games of Marion and Amare. Hell, that system is tailored to fit the games of any player who can run, shoot and jump. And, I watched enough games to know that if you think Brian Skinner was “scoring” in Phoenix, you’re a damn fool.
#2 DPOY is for Defense, MVP is for Winning,Stats, an if u make others around u better! Nash did that in spades his 2 MVP seasons… PERIOD. Nash’s defense has nothing to do with being considered for MVP. #3 Nash is one of the top 10 all time efficient pure shooters, FGs, 3pt, and FT %!!! If he took 25-35 shots a game like Kobe, wade and others have done thru out their careers , Nash would have averaged over 25 pts per game and that’s if he shoots worse than his career averages! Nash is above 50% fg , 40% 3pt, an 90% ft in the last 6 years at least!!!
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