Friday, May 29th, 2009 at 11:25 am  |  45 responses

NBA’s Rite of Passage: Beating Kobe?

Is being able to defeat Kobe the NBA’s standard of excellence? From Slate: “Playing Kobe Bryant is the biggest occasion in the league. From the moment he went pro, Bryant’s obvious, self-conscious ambition was to be the next Michael Jordan, the player against whom all other players would be measured. In his own way, Kobe has reached that goal. It’s just that other players like the way they measure up. This doesn’t mean that Bryant is easy to beat. If it were easy, nobody would care, and Kobe would be another Jerry Stackhouse or Vince Carter on the scrap heap of failed Next Jordans. Bryant is a ferocious competitor, a preposterously skilled and creative scorer, a stifling defender. He’s just not impossible to beat.”

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  • http://slamonline.com/ Ryne Nelson

    Interesting thought. I agree players strive to top Kobe (and it’s definitely possible to do so), but it sure looks like no one’s going to be doing it in 2009.

  • http://theghostofroyhobbs.blogspot.com Mo Charlo

    cosign Ryne

  • http://www.slamonline.com Myles Brown

    Great read.

  • truthteller

    Let the Hating begin…..NOW!

  • MKP

    1) LOL! I love the comment about Vince Carter. What a waste of talent.

    2) Stackhouse was touted to be the next Jordan? Really?

  • Jackie Moon

    It’s easy to write these things while a player is still active. The only impressions that will last will be made once Kobe’s career is done. Remember how John Elway was a “gunner” who could never win the big one? Neither do I.

  • JR

    hmmm…. i wonder if Kobe would’ve played his entire prime with a bunch of other all-nba players (pippen, rodman, etc.) other dudes that were the best defenders at their position in the league (rodman, pippen) three point contest champs (hodges, kerr), the six man of the year (kukoc) and a bunch of other veteran former all stars (pippen, grant, rodman, armstrong, harper…) maybe he would’ve been “impossible to beat”

    no one ever talks about what mj did when he was surrounded by less talent. zero rings.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Thank You, JR, I read Jordan ran away all the scrubs and only the tough minded players who can take Jordan’s mouthpiece stayed. Kobe does that now and people try to call him a bad teammate, because he tells the soft teammates to step up. They lost Kobe a title last year, by not stepping up and hitting shots, when Kobe was getting tripled team, double with 1 zone up the middle, and held. By PP beating Kobe, people say he is a Hall of Famer now, to me he is still the PP, from the Walker days, couldn’t do nothing, until KG came. Give Kobe-KG, and Lakers win the title too.

  • ave. joe

    Agreed, The Seed. Bring Shaq back to Kobe. Bring Vince and T-Mac back to T.O. Let the universe make sense again :’(

  • Michael

    @ The seed. Intelligent agrument.

  • JR

    Give Kobe KG? How about KG and toss in another franchise guy (Ray Allen). Or give Kobe two HOFs and a few other former all stars, like MJ had. This year he is playing with NO HOFs and all you hear anyone talk about is how good Odom and Pau are. Really? How many all stars do they have combined? 1? 2, maybe?

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    Vince Carter had a chance to become the best basketball player of his era. Possibly better than Kobe, possibly better than LeBron.
    The day he got his degree and went to his ceremony, somehow he lost that chance… Weird. That’s the day he went downhill. Man, he was one of my favorite players a decade ago.

  • Jackie Moon

    Vince Carter is one of those guys who could have been a Hall of Famer in an alternate universe. Some small twists of fate (what if he had made that game winner against the Sixers? what if T-Mac had stayed? What if Vince dedicated himself to basketball? Ok, the last one is not that small of a twist), and his career could have been completely different.

  • juliusj14

    Kobe will never really be fully appreciated because so many people hate him and try to make these type articles to portray him in a negative way. He has faced more adversity than most players who have ever played in the NBA. Someone always seems to take his shine. First it was Jordan, then Shaq, and now Lebron.

  • Ang

    Kobe plays defense?

  • http://sfkldf.com Jukai

    First off, Vince Carter will DEFINITELY be a hall of famer. Don’t kid yourself.
    Secondly, I agree, the MJ-always-with-talent is a great argument to make. When Jordan played with scrubs, he had about as much success in the playoffs as Kobe did.
    But why don’t we compare the players themselves, shall we?
    Kobe’s two years at his height with scrubs: 27 points, six rebounds, six assists, 1.3 steals, and less than a block a game… and then 35.7 points, five rebounds, 4.5 assists, almost two steals a game, nearly no blocks a game.
    Jordan’s two years at his height playing with scrubs: 37 points, five rebounds, five assists, over two steals, over two blocks… and two years later, 32.5 points, eight assists, eight rebounds, nearly three steals, and almost a block a game.
    Sooooo…. you know… both ungodly statlines, but I’m going out on a limb and saying that Jordan’s probably WAY better.

  • http://mindyourbusiness@nosybutt.com Allenp

    That was a very accurate appraisal.
    Bill Simmons said the other day that Kobe made a mistake showing all the players at the Olympics how he trained and prepared. It changed their whole approach.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Blinguo

    Chris Childs disappeared after beating Kobe…
    Reggie’s still around, but that wasn’t a real beating. Damn Bowen “has more God than you” so he’s never going anywhere, unless someone finally steps under him on his shots too.

  • a_whiteman

    Jukai don’t forget jordan actually carried his scrubs out of the first round. And he didn’t demand a trade because his team wasn’t up to par!

  • a_whiteman

    Oh ya and he never ran his teammates out of town cuz he wanted star recognition, he would have made it work with a guy like shaq

  • http://hibachi20.blogspot.com BETCATS

    @the seed: that is the dumbest thing i ever heard from you in a while. When Kobe did have a good cast around him (SHAQ) he broke it up with mutual bickering between the 2. And last year, Kobe was suppose to win, everyone said he would, BUT HE DIDNT. And it wasnt the failure of his supporting cast, it was the failure of his team, which was lead by him. Meaning Kobe not have a post-shaq ring is Kobe’s own failing.

  • underdog

    I think great players make mediocre teammates better. Like Kidd did to Kenyon. Like MJ did to the whole Bulls (well, except for Pip).

  • KoBynum716

    I can’t wait to see what all the haters will say after Kobe retires. The only reason people hate him so much is because he IS better than jordan but noones ready to admit it yet. They’re not ready for the jordan void to be filled in, which kobe has already done. Lebron’s time will come…after Kobe’s gone.

  • http://slamonline.com B. Long

    Ye Shall Not Pass!

  • http://sfkldf.com Jukai

    KoBynum: I was feeling you, until you said that Kobe was better than Jordan. Which, you know, is insane.

  • KoBynum716

    Jukai: thats cool, everyones entitled to their opinion. but keep in mind it was easier in jordans day. no zones, no double-teams off the ball, and no guard could compare to jordan in his day because there was noone as good as the guards/forwards of today.

  • http://sfkldf.com Jukai

    KoBynum: That’s entirely true, and I’ve argued that point in the past. But I’d be hypocritical if I also didn’t mention that in today’s league, there is no hand checking, making keeping players out of the paint (MUCH MUCH) harder, and in today’s league, off-ball contact means flagrant fouls, making it very hard to double team players effectively, and in today’s league, a three-second rule on defense was introduced making sure a player can’t clog the lane.
    So, yes, there is a lot about today’s league that would make it more difficult for Jordan to operate. There’s also a lot in the past league that would make it very difficult for Kobe to operate. You have to look at both sides of the same coin, man.

  • http://Nicekicks.com MeloMan22

    Cosign Jukai.

  • http://www.twitter.com/Th3_R3al_Chris Young Chris MP3

    B.J. Armstrong, Craid Hodges, Dennis Hopson, Stacey King, Cliff Levingston, John Paxson, Will Perdue, Scott Williams, Bobby Hansen, Chuck Nevitt, Mark Randall, Rory Sparrow, Ricky Blanton, Joe Courtney, Jo Jo English, Rodney McCray, Ed Nealy, Trent Tucker, Darrell Walker, Corey Williams, Randy Brown, Jud Buechler, Jason Caffey, James Edwards, Jack Haley, Dickey Simpkins, Bill Wennington, Matt Steigenga, Brian Williams, Keith Booth, Scott Burrell, Joe Kleine, Rusty LaRue, David Vaugn.

  • http://www.twitter.com/Th3_R3al_Chris Young Chris MP3

    And in response to KoBynum’s 5:50 post:

    Gary Payton, Clyde Drexler, Chris Mullin, Mitch Richmond, Reggie Miller, Glen Rice, John Starks, Latrell Sprewell, Jamal Mashburn, Jimmy Jackson, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott, Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill, Eddie Jones, Joe Dumars, Cedric Ceballos, Dominique Wilkins, Ron Harper, Hersey Hawkins, Jeff Hornacek, Kevin Johnson

  • chintao

    Kobe = Vaudevillin’, Fake Villain (turn of phrase courtesy of East Coast Avengers)

  • http://www.twitter.com/Th3_R3al_Chris Young Chris MP3

    I forgot Dan Majerle

  • KB24

    haha dont even compare jerry or vince to jordan or kobe. there is no comparison. and i everybody says jordan was sooo great but if you look at it he wasnt that good. he played one sided. he handled the offence of end while pippen and others guarded the best offence of players while jordan sat back and rested. kobe and lebron have to lead there teams on both ends. period.

  • http://www.twitter.com/Th3_R3al_Chris Young Chris MP3

    KB24 never watched MJ play if he thinks Pippen guarded the best offenSive players in any year other than the 2 that Jordan was gone for.

  • http://www.slamonline.com Blinguo

    @ Chintao , is that a nickname of MFDOOM? I swear he has a Vaudeville Villain one…

  • KoBynum716

    Young Chris: Those are all great players, but other than reggie and glyde, none of those players could compare to jordan and we all know the leagues changed, so half those players wouldn’t be what they were back then in todays game.

  • KoBynum716

    guards and forwards have continued to get better, and after shaq, downlow presence has been a joke (except for DH of course). thats just what it’s become.

  • http://www.twitter.com/th3_r3al_chris Young Chris MP3

    I’m pretty sure ‘Nique, Penny, Mashburn, Ron Harper, Mitch Richmond, Hersey Hawkins, Joe Dumars, Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, Chris Mullin, Shawn Kemp, Charles Barkley, Vin Baker, Dan Majerle, Cedric Ceballos, J.R. Rider, Kenny Anderson, Derek Coleman, Tim Hardaway, John Stockton, Karl Malone, and all the other 90s stars could play as successfully, if not moreso (the league’s changed, but I think it caters to offensive games – meaning that slashers would spend more time at the free-throw line and have more roo to maneuver). Grant Hill, Gary Payton and Latrell Sprewell already HAVE played quality basketball in this generation, and if Grant Hill can score 20 a game in Orlando (after all those ankle surgeries), he could average 30 a game in today’s game during his prime.

  • http://www.twitter.com/th3_r3al_chris Young Chris MP3

    There are quite a few all-star guards and forwards this generation that would struggle 15 years ago: Amare, Vince, Tracy, Bosh, Gasol, Nowitzki, Steve Nash, Shawn Marion, Mo Williams Michael Redd, Richard Jefferson, Antawn Jamison. Really, CP3, Lebron, ‘Melo, Chauncey, Rip, ‘Sheed, Kobe, D-Wade, Dwight (he’d be a Power Forward 10 years ago), and other ALL-WORLD stars would stand out, just as they do now. The talent level is not really different. The game is, though.

  • http://www.twitter.com/th3_r3al_chris Young Chris MP3

    And check my June 1st, 12:03am list next time anybody wants to debate the talent Jordan won with.

  • KoBynum716

    out of your list, the only person, in my opinion, who would struggle 15 years ago is gasol and maybe RJ. the rest would be just as good. the talent level is different only due to the fact that older players didnt work out half as much as the league does now, and all those practices and workouts all do help your game last time i checked. just as you said, only people like magic, bird, kareem, nique, big game, zeke, MJ, and those stars would stand out now. other players wouldn’t hang with the talent level of today.

  • http://www.twitter.com/Th3_R3al_Chris Young Chris MP3

    And KoBynum’s opinion is now officially invalid from now on imo.

  • chintao

    @ Blinguo ==> Apparently, DOOM did use “Vaudeville Villain” as an alias. Not being a DOOM aficianado, I did not realize.

  • KoBynum716

    youngchris: kobe, lebron, melo, wade, bosh, amare, dwill, cp3, gasol, garnett, dwight, shaq, steve nash, jkidd, ray allen, pierce, rashard lewis, kevin durant, baron davis, allen iverson, rasheed wallace, billups, danny granger, tmac, vince carter, devin harris, andre iggy, joe johnson, b-roy, caron butler, antawn jamison, gilbert arenas, tim duncan, tony parker, ginobili, dirk nowitzki, yao ming, jameer nelson, ron artest, ben gordon, derrick rose, oj mayo, gerald wallace, shawn marion, kevin martin, jose calderon, al jefferson, rudy gay, richard hamilton, tayshaun prince, elton brand, marcus camby, chris kaman, stephen jackson,….just to name a few

  • KoBynum716

    i forgot michael redd and carlos boozer

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