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Saturday, February 11th, 2012 at 2:55 pm  |  151 responses

War Veterans Protesting in Orlando For All-Star Game Tickets


With All-Star Weekend in Orlando steadily approaching, many fans are getting excited for the big event(s), a group that apparently excludes a bunch of war veterans who have been protesting outside of City Hall and demanding that city officials give up their tickets to the game. MyFoxOrlando has more: “A large crowd of war veterans and their supporters gathered in front of Orlando City Hall on Friday to protest Orlando and Orange County leaders attending the NBA All-Star Game at the Amway Center later this month. They offered a public plea to Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer, Orange County Mayor Teresa Jacobs and other community leaders, asking that they hand over their tickets to constituents. ‘Their job is to serve the public, not to benefit from the public,’ said Vietnam War veteran Thomas Pastore. A supporter of veterans’ rights, Jordan Montgomery, said giving those who have sacrificed for our county special perks like a coveted All-Star Game ticket is, ‘Just one way that we can thank them for everything they’ve done for us.’ ‘I want them to sacrifice, what they treasure so much right now is those NBA All-Star tickets,’ said Pastore. ‘I want them to sacrifice… understand what it’s about to give these tickets to veterans.’ Mayor Jacobs has said that county leaders went to great lengths to bring the NBA All-Star Game to Orlando and that is was duty to host clients at the game. The mayor’s office also said they are giving 16 tickets to foster children.”

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  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    I’m not a war vet, but I am a military vet.
    And you won’t ever catch me doing something like this.
    You enlist in the military primarily to protect your country, not for any perks you might receive because of it.
    I realize a lot of people join for like, free college and stuff like that but I never cared about that, I just wanted to be a Marine.
    I didn’t even know what the hell the GI Bill was when I signed my contract.
    Yeah, I’ll take advantage of stuff like getting my college paid for or getting a military discount or even accepting free tickets to sporting events if they’re offered to me.
    But demanding city officials give their tickets up to you for a basketball game is too much.
    Let others fight that battle if they want to, but in my opinion it just makes us look bad to be out there saying “I was in a war, give me your ticket!”
    Makes us look like we think we’re entitled or something.
    Nah, I’d rather see those tickets go to underprivileged kids or maybe to reward kids who excel at school or something but I’m good.

  • A dogg

    Thanks, Enigmatic. I am a vet also, and this whole thing stinks to me.

    Totally agree with your well-phrased comments.

  • Steve

    “I was in a war, give me your ticket!” That’s what I hear too. -_-

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85Bl3GRdULQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player 1982

    I’m nothing close to any type of a vet but Enig speaks the truth.

  • shutup

    I hate to say anything negative about anyone who serves their country, but I dont like this at all, whole heartily agree with Enigmatic. Probably the most pertinent truthful comment I have ever read on slamonline

  • EJ

    I don’t understand why people in America thank their war veterans for protecting their country, when pretty much always they’re just bombing other countries. Thank you for killing a bunch of arabs would be more correct if you ask me.

  • Red

    A bulls fan & a war veteran, dope.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    EJ – I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.
    My brothers and sisters in the Marines weren’t flying any f*cking jets in OIF or OEF dropping bombs.
    They had their boots on the ground and endured heavy firefights daily.
    Ever read Bing West’s “No True Glory” about the Battle of Fallujah?
    I don’t remember reading anything about them “just bombing other countries”.
    Nor do I remember any of my friends who were in that battle mentioning to me that they were “just bombing other countries” as they were watching their platoon mates getting killed all around them.
    Nor did any of my friends that I lost in the wars die as a result of “just bombing other countries”.

  • Erik

    You’re right Enig. When people who have no real knowledge regarding that about which they are speaking they make use of stupid abstractions like “just bombing.” Good on you Enigmatic.

  • EJ

    Ok, just bombing wasn’t the right thing to say, but what I mean by that is that America is always attacking other countries, acting like a world police. That’s not cool. I don’t have anything against American war veterans, but I don’t really respect that either, especially when people talk about them protecting America.

  • LaKid

    I think EJ’s comment might speak more to the US basically being a bull in a china shop, which is somewhat true. He just said it in a stupid way.
    Got to agree with everyone else though, veterans asking for tickets is pathetic. This sense of entitlement isn’t right.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    The military’s just following orders, man.
    It’s not like a bunch of generals are sitting in a room somewhere saying “which country should we attack next?”
    It’s old men in suits in DC who are ordering the military to do what’s in the country’s “best interests” which we all know is a joke sometimes.
    I think the Iraq war was a mistake, in hindsight, but sitting by and not doing anything about the Taliban and Al Qaeda after 9/11 would’ve been a mistake too, so I think the war in Afghanistan had to happen.
    You might agree if 9/11 had happened in your own country.
    Have we already forgotten the US was attacked first?
    And don’t let the mistakes of a few taint what everyone else has done, yes there have been bad apples who do dumb sh*t like murder civilians or p*ss on enemy combatants while filming it.
    But the vast majority are doing honorable work over there, working with local people, gaining their trust, even helping them build their cities up with new schools, clean water supplies, etc. it’s just the good news never makes the news, only the bad.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    It’s not even confirmed whether or not Al Qaeda orchestrated 9/11. Three buildings fell, one of which was never struck by a plane and just collapsed on its own. Pre-planned demolition? I don’t know. I never used to take “9/11 Truthers” seriously (until I heard what some had to say) but the story told to us by the US government is absolute BS.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    That wasn’t a response to anyone, just something I wanted to say. That has nothing to do with marines or this story. Just to clarify.

  • Bill

    I didn’t sign up to protect my country. I signed up to get tickets to basketball games.

    Support the Dupes!

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    If they do score All Star Game tickets by pulling this sh*t, I may have to reconsider my position on this, lol.
    Just kidding.

  • JB

    Enig, I am currently on active duty and couldn’t agree with you more on your original post. The vets made the sacrifice so people can enjoy events like this.

  • http://slamonline BossTerry

    Cosign Enigmatic’s 1st comment.. I think the difference may be that the protesters are probably Vietnam vets,(or even older) whose days are numbered, and 30 years ago would probably have the same opinion as you, but now that they are old, they want to be “honored”, and want whatever hand-outs they can get…

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Enigmatic, I understand what you’re saying and agree with most of it but I need you to explain to me how those guys are “heroes”? I understand that they are putting their lives on the line whenever they go to battle but how can you be a hero when you invade someone’s country and restrict their freedom? What do you expect cats in Afghan and Iraq to do when someone decides to invade their country? Welcome them with open hands?
    Now I’m not insulting anyone in the military but I have some unaswered questions.

  • MikeC.

    I’m enjoying the reasoned and steady comments here. I was kinda expecting a poop-storm of insults and name-calling. Kudos to all.
    @Enig – did you leave the service prior to moving to the tundra?

  • http://Slamonline.com Caboose

    Hey EJ take your complaint up with the country then, not with people like Enig. The military obeys the country and its interests, no matter what they may be. Loyalty. Just because you disagree with their aim doesn’t mean its their fault; blame the country.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    JTaylor, I’m not gonna get into all that with you, that’s fine.
    You have the right to not call them heroes, you even have the right to bad mouth the military if you wish.
    Feel free to try that sh*t somewhere like El Salvador or North Korea though and see that works out for you.
    Mike C – yes, got out in ’07, moved up here in ’09.

  • MikeC.

    I put in some work in Nunavut a few yrs ago. I live in Northern Ontario, so I’m used to the cold. All that dark though? No thanks. I was asking about your service because I have a friend in the Canadian forces and she said she’s done some training up there with some American forces. Low odds, but thought paths may have crossed if you were still serving.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    bad mouth? Who in the hell badmouthed the military? Whoa…remind me never to get into an argument with Engimatic on anything that has to do with the military. Sheeeeeeeeit.

  • robb

    Agreed Caboose. The soldiers are professionals, their job is to follow orders and protect the interests of their country, they don’t ask questions, they just go and do what they are told to do risking their lives. Many of them know there are some questionable decisions made by their leaders, but they act honorably and do what they have to do.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    Bro, I never said YOU bad mouth the military (although you have, in the past said, and I quote “f*ck the troops”) I said you could even go there if you wanted to, it’s your right.
    Reading comprehension is key, which you get on other commenters about too.

  • http://cnbc.com JTaylor21

    Living in the past I see.
    Like I said…I’ve nothing against those cats, they are just “following” orders.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    Nah, I actually just remembered that. That sh*t was like 2 years ago damn near so I don’t hold it against you anymore.

  • EJ

    I don’t have anything against American war veterans, I know it’s the politicians who start the wars. However I don’t have any special respect for vets who voluntarily invade other countries.
    And Enigmatic, you being an ex-Marine I’m expecting you to know that America had 9/11 coming. There probably wouldn’t be an Al Qaeda had America not gone to Afghanistan in the first place.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    Whatever helps you sleep better at night, EJ.
    I’m done responding to your stupidity.

  • http://Slamonline.com DatKid

    America had 9/11 coming???? WTFFFFF

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    One last thing, you’re right the US played a role in creating Al Qaeda, the “stupidity” comment is in reference to you saying the US had it coming.
    Regardless how you feel about war or invading countries or whatever, to just be so nonchalant about thousands of innocent lives being murdered, like “meh, they had it coming”, is just f*cked up beyond f*cked up.
    Peace.
    Or war, f*ck it, whichever.

  • shutup

    wow, I’ve posted some sh!t on this site but but EJ’s last comment is just wow. To think that terrorism doesnt exist outside of Americas influence is very naive there are bombings and terrorist acts all over the world, buses and subways in London, planes in Isreal. America had 9/11 coming? Just wow. I disagree with a lot of America’s foreign policy, but to dishonor people that have sacrificed so much is just sickening. People I grew up with died that day, my company had a contract that had me in the towers at least once a month, If you think any country deserves what happened that day some one should fly a plane into your house.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    I’m surprised Shutup seen that comment this late (I’m assuming you in the US).
    Thats the type of comment I would hope would receive like 20 angry responses if it had been posted during the daytime in the US.

  • shutup

    yeah running on Vegas time, up late playing call of duty. and for the record when I work the door I make sure that anyone with a military ID doesnt pay the cover, its not company policy, I just do it outta respect.

  • EJ

    I’m sorry Enigmatic but you justify America invading Afghanistan and the whole middle-east with 9/11, so isn’t that basically saying “they had it coming”? Why should middle-east just take it and do nothing about it? That just comes off as the typical “we’re better than those foreigners” American attitude.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    It’s not “they had it coming”, it was an act of war on their part, which requires retaliation on ours.
    And of course I don’t expect them to just take it, and by “them” I mean extremist terrorists.
    You seem to think the US has it out for everyone in the middle east, and that is just bullsh*t.
    The majority of service members honestly want to see Afghanistan thrive, not destroyed.
    But that won’t happen as long as the terrorists are in power.
    Your attitude about it implies you’ve long come to the conclusion Americans are just war-mongers who thumb their noses up at the rest of the world.
    Which if that is the case it begs the question – what in the hell are you doing commenting on an American site that covers primarily American basketball???

  • http://slamonline.com. datkid

    they didn’t have to take it out on thousands of innocent civilians you jack@ss. WHY CAN’T WE BAN PEOPLE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD?!?!?!!

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    I’ma hit you up if I’m ever in Vegas then,, lol.
    Good looking out for that, too. Respect.

  • http://slamonline.com. datkid

    also cosign enigmatic…. we talk about basketball here not about whatever the f*ck you think is wrong with america smh

  • EJ

    Of course I feel bad for 9/11, and I don’t think those Americans deserved it by any means. But when you look at what America has been doing for a long time, you would think that there would be some kind of retaliation.
    You can’t justify 9/11, but don’t be so naive that you think America can get away with just about anything without getting some kind of unjust retaliation.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    Datkid – Nah, real talk I really don’t mind if people come on here and say negative but not overtly-disrespectful things about the US, which aside from that “they had it coming” line, he’s been tactful for the most part.
    What boggles my mind is how these blatant US haters, which he’s given every indication that he is, can go on living their lives hating their perception of us, but yet it’s like “effin Americans, lazy fat slobs with too much money always meddling in other countries’ affairs, starting wars and invading countries, I hate them all…but yo let me see what this Knicks game talkin’ bout and then I’ma hit up SLAM and comment bout it!”
    Sh*t just don’t make sense…

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    Why couldnt you have just phrased it the way you did in that 4:36 comment in the first place instead if saying “they had it coming”?
    Of course the US has long had blood on its hands from all kinds of nonsense, including things we may never know about, but that was an ill-advised phrase to sum up all those lives being killed with “they had it coming.”
    I can see where you’re tryin to get and I may be mistaken in my opinion of your own opinion of us, I’d just think about perhaps being more sensitive about that topic.
    Think of your own country’s biggest tragedy, and imagine that it only happened 10 years ago.
    Our wounds still haven’t healed from that attack so of course we’re still highly sensitive about it.

  • http://slamonline.com. datkid

    EJ- WHY ARE YOU TELLING US THIS??? WHAT THE F*CK MAN??

  • shutup

    I got you. as for EJ I dont know what to say, you cant feel sorry and then still try to justify why it happened in the same comment. Its just sad that the retaliation comes at the expense of innocent civilians, these terrorist pervert their religion to try to justify their actions and hurt their own people in the process, for such countries to be so rich in natural resources but have so much poverty is uncalled for, as much as people want to point the finger at Americas involvement, the oppression comes from within first. The same could be said about slavery, the first people to have African slaves were Africans. People need to stop acting like greed is an American concept or that all of the worlds woes fall at the feet of this great country.

  • EJ

    I dunno, it started out as a “just saying” comment, but I guess my bad phrasing made it bad. I’m not English, so that happens sometimes. Not so easy to make your point.
    No I don’t have any general opinion of Americans, I’ve visited there and it’s a nice place, and I actually have some relatives living in California. Nothing wrong with the place, I just don’t really like the politics. That’s all.

  • shutup

    What country are you from?, if you dont mind me asking. Because I dont think there is a government on this planet that doesnt engage in some questionable political policies. and really it was just the use of the word “deserve” it implies justification. Its a touchy subject that is the exact reason I try to stay away from political or religious conversations.

  • EJ

    I don’t think the slavery in America was what got Africa to it’s current situation tho. A lot of it is just western countries stealing resources and funding dictators. America actually supported Saddam Hussein.

  • EJ

    I’m Finnish.

  • http://www.slamonline.com spit hot fiyah

    i got into to this one way too late, and i’m going to stay out. @ EJ say what’s up to hanno mötöllä (spellcheck)

  • Zabbah

    I don’t think those war vets deserve the all-star tickets since they orchestrated 9-11.

  • tomtom

    Weird that vets seem to have such a communist idea..

  • ttc

    it’s all about imperialism, people..America & other powerful nations have military bases all over the world in order to control these parts, which leads them to have (more) power..we, the people, are just being manipulated and some of us are even willing to die for this imperialism bullsh*t, thinking we do it for our “country”, which doesn’t actually have any sense if u really think about it..

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    What EJ really means is that an attack like 9/11 was inevitable, whether as a false flag operation to gain support for Afghanistan’s invasion, or a retaliation attack by pissed off Arabs. Look, it’s not JUSTIFYING the attack, but if you seriously think Al Qaeda flew planes into the towers because they “hated our freedoms” then you’re a f*cking dolt. They flew planes into those towers as retaliation for AMERICA’s terrorism. The US supports more military dictatorships in the world, has toppled hundreds of governments (many of them democratically elected) and has military bases ALL OVER THE WORLD in other people’s backyards! Don’t give me that sh!t about America bringing “democracy and freedom” to Libya and Afghanistan and Iraq… Who supported Saddam Hussein in the first place? Who basically created Al Qaeda? America props up two of the biggest murderers in the Middle East in Saudi Arabia and Israel… Saudi Arabia, a fundamentalist ass-backward government who still executes women for SORCERY. F*cking sorcery, are you kidding me?! And they’re our BEST friends in the Middle East.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bugC2RvGBQw Teddy-the-Bear

    Two videos, please watch. Click my name for the first one.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nAI7ShBQEk&feature=related Teddy-the-Bear

    Second one for anyone who thinks bombing Afghanistan was inevitable. A crystal clear explanation… If I were typing it here I’d just be plagiarizing his words, lol. (Chomsky).

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nAI7ShBQEk&feature=related Teddy-the-Bear

    Second video… For anyone who thinks bombing Afghanistan was the right thing to do. He explains it crystal clear… If I were to type it here I’d just be plagiarizing his words, lol. (Chomsky).
    And it’s not anti-American to call the US out on its war crimes. And let’s say EJ is against America (which he isn’t). What exactly is he against? Is he against you and me, the people of America? Is he against the schools, the cars, the food? Is he against the flag? I don’t think so…
    He’s against what every freaking American should be against in the first place. The world is not a big sports game where you root for your “team” and say screw everyone else.
    Again, this has nothing to do with marines or individual soldiers.

  • shutup

    I hate political discussions for this reason, so I’m only gonna add this last comment, yes the attacks on America were inevitable because because of jealousy and misunderstanding, terrorist attacks happen all over the world. As long as there have been people on this earth there has been war. If America doesnt step up who will? You think Canada’s passive foreign policy helps the world stay safe? America is accountable because its visible, your trying to give these terrorists a free pass, its sad because if they could control their own countries America wouldnt feel compelled to do it. I’m familiar with Chomksy, what he doesnt address is the fact that America’s hands are tied with the “civility” of modern warfare, the Geneva Convention was indoctrinated to protect the innocent in the world but, these terrorists operate outside of any guidelines and moral code. You fail to realize that America is just as hard on itself, seeing as the media is free to publish what it wants. As for the sorcery thing another example of a reason these countries need to get their sh!t together. I just cant do this….. just remember that if America didnt step up in previous wars most of the world would be speaking German and as bad the world economy is now, it would be 10x worse without us.

  • http://www.alllooksame.com Tarzan Cooper

    Hey teddy, you make good sense

  • EJ

    @Teddy, I don’t really like the American education system tho… lol
    Did the middle-east have any terrorists before Soviet Union and American invasion? I don’t know if they had, but I’m guessing no.
    And you never know where Afghanistan would be today without that. They’re a naturally rich country, so you’d think they would’ve made tremendous progress by now, if they were just let be in the first place.
    Europe used to be the same way when people were more religious and had crazy religious laws, and it all has faded. So why wouldn’t it happen in the muslim areas? Usually the more poverty, the more religion. The middle-east is really poor. Really poor=really religious people=crazy religious laws.
    Nobody messed with Europe, and it turned out fine.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nAI7ShBQEk&feature=related Teddy-the-Bear

    Why is flying planes into buildings an act of terrorism, but flying planes OVER somebody’s country and bombing/leveling ENTIRE cities not an act of terrorism?
    Terrorists operate outside any moral code? Okay, let’s say you’re right. Well, the US is just about the only developed nation that doesn’t adhere to International Law and constantly violates the Geneva Convention, and has indisputably killed more civilians than any “terrorists” out there. Are Americans terrorists? Hmm…
    Google search a map of Iran and the number of American military bases directly surrounding it. Then tell me who is a threat to whom?
    And can we put WWII to rest, please? It’s the same tired excuse over and over again, and it has nothing to do with wars that were fought after it. Case in point: The Cold War with Russia (our ally) and the Korean War with China (our ally), as well as the hiring of Nazi scientists (our enemy) by the military.
    And was America REALLY heroic during WWII? Well, while Americans were out there defeating the Nazis and being heroic, BLACK PEOPLE weren’t even allowed to fight alongside white people! And now the only country in the world to ever use nuclear weapons in war is trying to tell other countries that they can’t have nuclear weapons?!
    And by the way, not only did we drop 2 atomic bombs on Japan, we also firebombed an entire city AFTER the Japanese surrendered, just for the hell of it.
    Last thing: Africa and the Middle East are rich regions of the world. The people are poor because America/Europe have been plundering their resources for over half a century. Their problems are only internal because we use divide-and-conquer to conquer their sh!t, and because our international banksters (IMF and World Bank) are glorified loan sharks. But it’s always easier to blame the victims.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nAI7ShBQEk&feature=related Teddy-the-Bear

    Nothing personal, shutup. And I realize how inappropriate a sports forum is for discussing these things, but I like you guys so it’s fun to talk about all sorts of stuff. Also, EJ started it. lol.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nAI7ShBQEk&feature=related Teddy-the-Bear

    Not that I’m saying the world wasn’t justified in stopping the Nazis and Japanese fascists. The world was very justified, and I’m thankful they no longer exist. But that doesn’t have anything to do with American imperialism.
    Anyways, I’m out for a bit. peace all.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    SMH anytime the military is mentioned Teddy just can’t help himself…
    You contributed not a damn thing to the original argument. Lol

  • shutup

    Its cool, just wanna point out that France tried to take over the world at one point too, so as much as you would love to sit on your high horse made of maple syrup, it might be time to wash the blood off your own hands or do you think that French is indigenous to the the North part of North America?As for the development of emerging nations, the the stakes are much higher now, there is more of a global community, and the threat of widespread destruction is more prevalent. As for Japan, well thats what happens when you declare war on somebody, did America want to fight Japan? NO. and look I cant stand here and defend Americas foreign policy or even some of its domestic policies, mistakes will be made, but its a fallacy to try to argue that terrorism wouldnt exist without America, the Huns were terrorists. and the conflict in the middle east is older than America by centuries.

  • shutup

    oh and surrender isnt always surrender, its in the art of war to use surrender as a tactic too get your opponent to ease up, giving you time to rebuild your strength. Its also in the 48 laws of power “Law 22: Use the surrender tactic: transform weakness to power
    Surrender is usually a sign of weakness; when someone has had enough and decides that it is best to let him be at the mercy of their enemies rather than face utter annihilation. However, Law 22 states that in surrender one can subtly fall but regroup to fight once again when the tides turn to his favor.” and the firebomb is in adherence to LAW 15 Crush Your Enemy Totally “All great leaders since Moses have known that a feared enemy must be crushed completely. (Sometimes they have learned this the hard way.) If one ember is left alight, no matter how dimly it smolders, a fire will eventually break out. More is lost through stopping halfway than through total annihilation: The enemy will recover, and will seek revenge. Crush him, not only in body but in spirit.”

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    Honestly, I wouldn’t have been mad if we just done leveled Afganistan. Just made it smoke and ash.
    Teddy lives in China, one of the most oppressive countries in the world. He’s such a massive hypocrite.

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    Oh my god, Africa and the Middle East are poor because of America… just learn your god damn history. Jesus christ.

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    Ah, my long post didn’t show up. Must have used some curse words. Well, that’s that I guess.

  • shutup

    jukai I thought teddy was from canada, I coulda swore he said he lives in toronto, yeah china is even worse, I just read a story about a woman who was having baby after baby and killing them upon birth because they were female, she had like 9 children that she didnt keep, smh. and lol at the long comment thing, you gotta proof read sometimes, i use the word sh!t a lot without knowing it.

  • l2ising Phoenix

    It’s so loud, inside my head. With words.. I … Never said…. Fellow commentators, I will not elaborate on my opinion, I shall present you with the evidence.If you have time , YouTube/Netflix “loose change”

  • l2ising Phoenix

    *not evidence, actually the truth*

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    shutup: perhaps you are right, but he definitely has some heritage from China. Whenever someone mentions something negative about China, he’s the first person to come in and say “WELL WHAT ABOUT AMERICA!!!!” so I feel no remorse bringing up the awful sh*t China’s been doing and is doing.
    I mean, some of the comments are so ignorant. Not confirmed we were attacked by al-qaeda? The organization literally took credit for it. We have video footage of Osama planning the attacks with the hijackers. Al Jazeera literally played those video tapes with Osama talking about the attacks. To deny that al-qaeda and the taliban (who housed and trained and armed al-qaeda, and shared leadership) weren’t directly responsible is now borderline denial.
    Secondly, the dude is talking like the September 11th attacks were caused by the culmination of American interference and policing it has done to the world. That’s ridiculous. If that were any type of valid excuse, we could use that for any type of intrusion (and actually have, sadly). You have to look at it in a vacuum: what caused al-qaeda and the taliban to attack us? The honest answer: Nothing. The USA put the Taliban in power. We armed it in its independence war against the USSR. One can easily say we made our own bed, we did. But the groups radicalized immediately (easier to control people through religion, I guess) and took offense to our alliance with Israel and our continued military deals with Saudi Arabia. In some ways, objectable offenses… but nothing that directly influenced them in the slightest. America was a scapegoat, a way of further controlling the masses through religion and fear. The attacks were a further simple of power, eg “Join us, the enemy can be injured.” It was an inexcusable act of war.
    Now one can complain about a lot of things we did, our use of torture (DISGUSTING), our siding with questionable people to gain influence in the country (disturbing) and some of the people we put into power are as corrupt as their previous governments (truly awful) but the bottom line is: how do we respond to the attack without attacking Afghanistan? They were housing and defending Osama. They refused to hand him over because they “did not have enough evidence” despite the fact that the arab stations were playing video footage of Osama planning the attack. Were we supposed to hold meetings? Sit down and talk? It’s silly and naive to think that this would be solved any other way. And along the way, we set up schools and hospitals and freed villages and tried to unify a people. We failed, mostly because of Iraq and our non-commitment to nation building Afghanistan.
    But to call our actions there an over-retaliation and a terrorist attack in itself is absurdly disingenuous. It was a war. Innocent people die. Welcome to reality.

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    Which is why I made the awful and probably regrettable statement of saying “maybe we should have just leveled the country.” People treat America’s efforts in Afghanistan as if they are global policing and terrorizing the people. So, in the end, would their opinion of us be worse if we just destroyed the thing? They have such irrational hatred anyway.

  • l2ising Phoenix

    Damn Jukai, your comment makes a lot of sense. But what if I told you that 9/11 was a demolition? Would you believe me? Nah you wouldn’t, man just Google it, and maybe you might see that it was all an intricate cog for the bigger picture. Loose change , watch it. Your beliefs/views might be swayed.

  • CyberCosmiX

    This is what happens when you have All-Star games in small markets…

  • CyberCosmiX

    Teddy-the-Bear you’re a jackass.

  • MikeC.

    The 9/11 attacks are Lebron’s fault.

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    l2ising: I lived in New York through September 11th, dude. This is simple logic for you: there is no way they could have set up a demolition without New Yorkers noticing. There were thousands of people going in the building every day, tens of thousands walking around the World Trade Center every day. It just can’t happen without someone noticing.
    As for Loose Change, it’s interested but… very very dated… haven’t listened to all of it… Saw some summaries… a lot of what they claim they don’t have (video of plane strikes, video of parts of the plane) were released after they were cleared years later. Some of it was just reporting media and eye witness reports when there was chaos, ie “Joe Shmoe says “I didn’t see a plane!!!!” when he probably didn’t. But 50 other people did.
    And a lot of stuff they said was BS. The cell phone not getting reception in 2001 in planes is crap. The “the US government said the plane totally disintegrated” is BS. The plane was shredded by concrete, it didn’t disintegrate. I don’t know, I mean, some of the stuff is eye opening but a lot of this stuff is misinformation. I hate conspiracy stuff that says “if this didn’t happen.. what did?” Well… tell us!

  • MikeC.

    No matter what we all believe, there’s one thing that I think we can all agree on: we are all truly lucky. We have a free and open forum to rant, rave, belittle, insult, praise each other’s opinions. We’re on a basketball website discussing political and military ideas. In many nations, some of the opinions posted here would be an automatic death sentence. Apologies for going all “hippy granola”, but I wanted to weigh in on a topic without being a smarta$$ for once.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    First, I don’t live in China. Second, we can argue about China vs. United States later–but one thing China doesn’t do is have military bases in every continent of the world. I’ll start a new comment because Jukai is funny and I need to roll up my comment sleeves. lol.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Jukai: First of all, the Taliban had nothing to do with 9/11 other than harboring Al Qaeda AFTER the deed was done. But you really have a crappy sense of history if you think the Taliban weren’t provoked by the United States. Did you not know that the US-backed Northern Alliance murdered tens of thousands of Afghans and tried to oust the Taliban since the ’90s? I’d call that a provocation. The hypocrisy is that the US attacks and invades more nations without direct provocation than any other country in the world. While we mourn 9/11 there are Chileans mourning over their own 9/11 that America caused, yet OF COURSE we’re better than the rest of the world! America, f*ck yeah!

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Also look up Operation Northwoods, a bill that almost passed during the Cold War that was supported/drafted by the Joint Chief of Staff. If you don’t think America specializes in false-flag operations you’re a f*cking fool. Iraq being just the recent one.
    Now, Operation Northwoods never passed because John F. Kennedy refused to sign it, but it was lobbied for by everyone with any position of power in the military.
    Basically it was a plan that proposed the CIA stage terrorist attacks on AMERICANS in order to frame Castro and justify an invasion of Cuban. Look it up.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    LMAO @ Jukai. I didn’t even catch that at first. “Honestly, I wouldn’t have been mad if we just done leveled Afganistan. Just made it smoke and ash.” And how are you AT ALL fit to observe and judge the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq with any semblance of objectivity? Discussion over. You’re an idiot. Not only are you an idiot on these matters, you use about as much objectivity in your discourse as the US uses in “mediating” the Israel/Palestine conflict. Congrats.

  • shutup

    I saw the plane I watched the second one crash into the second tower, muy brother video taped it as the first tower was burning, its a direct sight line from greenpoint (grand st station on the L) to lower Manhattan. plus I volunteered for cleanup after the attacks, not only was I working in a building overlooking the pit everyday afterwards(101 Barclay) for about 6 months but you could see the cleanup of the debris, dust covered all of downtown for at least 3 months following the attack, so all these conspiracy theories are bull$!t,. as for the china debate millions of dead female babies is horrific, the lack of civil liberties are deplorable, censorship is rampant and punishments are quick and severe. one could only imagine what would happen to Chomsky if he spoke the way he does if he was a resident of that country.

  • shutup

    @Jukai thats the problem America has to go into these things half@$$ because we have freedom of the press and we answer to the UN and we are accountable for what we do. We cant “do nothing” because it poses a risk to world stability, but we cant use the force that is necessary because it would be viewed as barbaric. we cant shoot civilians until they pose an immediate threat (ie, see a gun) so these terrorist use children and women strapped with bombs, another example of being held back the rules of engagement that these terrorist forces have no intention of ever following.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    OMFG… The US is bringing the world stability? How lamentable, the US actually has to adhere to international laws (which it doesn’t)! How deplorable, we have freedom of the press! People can criticize our government! Do you realize how hypocritical you sound?
    The difference between countries we consider repressive, like Iran and China, and countries the entire world considers repressive (us and Western Europe), is that unlike China and Iran, we have over 700 military bases in over 130 countries of the world. Does that not register??
    Iran hasn’t invaded a single country in over 200 years. China hasn’t invaded a country since the late 1970s (the Sino-Vietnamese War… which disgusts me, but which the US fully supported).

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    comments aren’t posting. The level of imperialist self-delusion on this thread is mesmerizing. So, all I have to say to Jukai is this: have fun with NDAA, you self-righteous jingoistic flag-waving douche. And a good day to you. Also look up Operation Northwoods.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Wait maybe my comments are posting I donno. I have one comment that I’ve been trying to post but whatever.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    Teddy if you feel so much anger, hatred, whatever towards the US, why watch the NBA?
    Why listen to American hip-hop?
    I just don’t get it. You want to badmouth the f*ck out of my country and then just turn around and enjoy American sports and music?
    That’s hypocrisy to me.

  • shutup

    One question if the US is so secretive and underhanded how does things like “Operation Northwood ” come out? not that I’m going to google it, because there is enough anti-American US propaganda in this post. If you feel like googling something how about “yellow Journalism” and no its not an anti-Asian thing. Plus we have elections unlike other countries were people with the most power or guns become leaders. your hatred of America is turning a civil discussion into an emotional argument. I wonder if you were in Iran would you be allowed to watch the NBA or post on Slam? I think not. Its real easy to control what comes out from a government if they control the press, read Manufacturing Consent by your beloved Chomsky.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    First of all I’m American too buddy. I’ve lived in Canada and the United States all my life.
    Who am I bad mouthing, and what exactly is “your country”? Again we’re catching feelings over some abstract nonsense of “country.” I’m attacking American imperialism and the military-industrial complex. Does that mean I hate Americans? Does that mean I hate hip-hop and American sports? How the hell do you even draw a connection between the two?
    Is it anti-American to talk about facts? Everything I’ve said here is well-documented (aside from the 9/ll theories… which are well-documented by not by mainstream press). As an American you have EVEN MORE RESPONSIBILITY to call your government on its bullsh!t, yet you insist on making excuses for a government that has actually convinced its people that free healthcare is not in the interests of its people. Really, dude. I’ve got a lot of respect for you Rigo but we have to step away from this jingoistic nonsense.

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    Teddy: Your heart is in China if you even think there is a debate between China and the United States. China is a walking human violation. Thinking otherwise is just a joke.
    First off, your Northern Alliance crap is just that: crap. Do you even know the history of the organization? They were a fringe group made from ousted leaders that the Taliban kicked out that formed in friggin 1996 (lol at the US sponsoring them throughout the 90s). And please give me reasonable citations that the US supported this group in the five years between their formation and 9/11. Other than words when the Taliban was SYSTEMATICALLY WIPING THEM OUT VILLAGE FROM VILLAGE, I never heard of anything about the US arming them. Don’t just namedrop it.
    And the Operation Northwoods thing is laughable but conspiracy nutcases just love it. It never got close to passing, Teddy. It was a proposal made only by a group (not ‘everyone’) in the CIA and sent to the president, whose administration quickly rejected it. No other group outside of a small part of the CIA even knew about it and no one in the administration even considered it. If that is what you’re using to back up your thoughts that the US made up 9/11, then you’re a lunatic, straight up. You probably wear tinfoil on your head in your parents basement.
    And do you really want to namedrop China with all the places they refuse to give independence too? What army bases do we have in places where the government wants to oust us? I don’t even know how you wouldn’t be embarrassed to even have this debate. You just sound like another tool who lives outside of reality.
    I mean, I really can’t believe you’re using Operation Northwood to prove that 9/11 was fake. Wow. Someone call bellevue.

  • http://Slamonline.com Rocksinmypants

    Upon reading all the comments concerning war and America and god knows what else, I just want to say that these “veterans” no matter their age are in the wrong. Completely. No one made them sign up, they knew what they were getting into and they shouldn’t feel entitled to any special attention. I mean if people recognize what you’ve done and want to thank you in some way then that’s fine. No need to be douchey about it though. Is war the solution to any problems? Depends on who you’re asking I suppose. People always wonder why many people in the middle east hate America and are so fanatic about seeing America destroyed. I get it though, I’d be getting just as wild if my whole life consisted of my country getting the hell bombed out of it or constant battles happening. Not saying it’s right, but that’s just the way it is.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    @ Jukai: I’m not sure what China has to do with the United States. I don’t live in China and as a Chinese person I’m well aware of the Chinese government. We’re talking about the US–you’re diverting attention away from the discussion because it makes you feel better. And it makes you look like less of a fool for wanting all of Afghanistan to be killed, and then trying to be objective after that. Do you have a single slice of credibility after that? You sound like a f*cking Nazi.

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    Teddy: The only reason I’m bringing it up is because whenever someone bad mouths China on this message board, you talk about what the US does. And now you’re using the “what does China have to do with this” excuse? Laughable.
    Did you know Humans Rights issues in China has its own wikipedia page? Kinda funny.
    I never said I wanted Afghanistan people to be killed. I said I wouldn’t be mad. A lot of Americans died to protect as many civilians as possible and only attack those that attacked us. We spent countless dollars and manpowered building schools and hospitals. And America is still vilanized over it. That just seems ridiculous to me.
    You think 9/11 was caused by America, don’t talk about credibility, you sound like a lunatic.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    I’m just saying, I couldn’t do it man.
    I don’t agree with a lot of government policies, foreign and domestic, but if I ever felt that strongly about it to the point that you do I would rather leave the country and disassociate from any and everything American.
    But thats just me.

  • MikeC.

    Can I have some all-star tickets?

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    From Chomsky:
    Since the harsh treatment of women in Afghanistan has at last gained some well-deserved attention, one might expect that attitudes of Afghan women towards policy options should be a primary concern. A natural starting point for an inquiry is Afghanistan’s “oldest political and humanitarian organisation,” RAWA (Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan), which has been “foremost in the struggle” for women’s rights since its formation in 1977. RAWA’s leader was assassinated by Afghan collaborators with the Russians in 1987, but they continued their work within Afghanistan at risk of death, and in exile nearby.
    RAWA has been quite outspoken. Thus, a week after the bombing began, RAWA issued a public statement entitled: “Taliban should be overthrown by the uprising of Afghan nation.” It continued as follows: “Again, due to the treason of fundamentalist hangmen, our people have been caught in the claws of the monster of a vast war and destruction. America, by forming an international coalition against Osama and his Taliban-collaborators and in retaliation for the 11th September terrorist attacks, has launched a vast aggression on our country… what we have witnessed for the past seven days leaves no doubt that this invasion will shed the blood of numerous women, men, children, young and old of our country.”
    The statement called for “the eradication of the plague of Taliban and Al Qaeda” by “an overall uprising” of the Afghan people themselves, which alone “can prevent the repetition and recurrence of the catastrophe that has befallen our country….”

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Whelp, there goes your insane theory that the US is in Afghanistan so little girls can go to school. I guess the British conquered India to save widows from being burned too, right? The Spanish wiped out 10 million indigenous Americans to save them from the practice of human sacrifice. And the US bombed Yugoslavia to prevent ethnic cleansing, and then bombed Libya to promote freedom and democracy.
    This American arrogance is really amusing. “But the people asked us to bomb them! We didn’t want to, but they begged us to bomb them! What are we supposed to do? We HAVE to bomb them to keep stability!!!” Great points.

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    … no… nope, that really doesn’t explain anything. I actually have no idea why you posted that. Was that in response to shutup?
    We’re in Afghanistan because we were attacked by a group that harbors, trains, arms, and shares leadership with the group that attacked us.
    You’re comparing the UN-led coalition to aid the Libyan rebels, who asked for help to oust their insane dictator, to the Spanish wiping out native Americans?
    You have no real ability to gauge reality, do you?

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    ^ I was waiting for this. Please continue. Why was the US justified in bombing Libya and killing over 1000 civilians last spring? Please.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    And what made Gaddafi an “insane dictator” compared the the rest of the dictators the United States supports? Please answer this as well and I’ll get back to you.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    (btw the US wiped out Natives too, you know…)

  • http://www.t-mac.com/tmac/index unf*ckwitable

    @Jukai, shut up dude, your 5.15pm comment rules you out of this argument. Your a dumb f*ck.

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    unf*ckwitable: Very useful debating skills, d*uchenozzel.
    Teddy: Give me a link where you have the number of over a thousand civilian casualties. Don’t ignore my request this time. The -United Nations- went into Libya because the Libyan rebels were asking for help to overthrow the regime which was systematically killing its civilians. Was their ulterior motives behind the outing, ie putting in a friendlier regime in place of one that actively hates us? Yes. Was it a bad decision to help those who were being eradicated by a crazy regime? I’d say so. This isn’t an Iraq issue.
    There clearly has been some bumbling recently, but there seems to be a lot of unclear or misinformation. I know we bombed a TV station which was an utter failure on our military, but there was the bombing of the hospital which was immediately blamed on the US which does not appear to be actually bombed. From someone who is so quick to be skeptical, you sure do jump on the US.
    Good strawman argument over the US wiping out the Indians. Totally relevant.

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    Also, I don’t get what gives Gadaffi validation because the US supports dictators who are just as bad. That’s just such an awful argument. How about putting your frustrations over the US supporting evil dictators instead of the US helping rebels free themselves of their own?

  • http://slamonline.com. datkid

    I was gonna stay away from this thread bc I honestly felt as though I didn’t know enough. But reading it has given me a new respect for shutup.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    @ Jukai: You know nothing. Seriously, just stop pretending. The US supports dictators far worse than Muammar Gaddafi, and it’s not even comparable. Gaddafi, while far from perfect, actually managed to develop Libya independently without foreign aid (ie. crippling loans from the IMF–one of the leading factors for African underdevelopment which you don’t think exists). Libya had the highest human development index in all of Africa and one of the highest in the Middle East, far better than Saudi Arabia and Bahrain (the US’ biggest Arab puppets). The average Libyan had a life expectancy of 72 years–that’s as good if not better than most developed nations. Libyans had free access to universal healthcare (something Americans still don’t have) and the literacy rate is 88%. 99% of all Libyan youths are literate, and girls outnumber boys in post-secondary institutions by 10%. He did wonders for women’s rights and vehemently opposed Al Qaeda and other Muslim extremist elements. Libyans had subsidized housing, government dowries for newlyweds and new born babies. He also led the construction of the world’s largest system of underwater pipes and aqueducts in the world, the “Great Manmade River,” which supplies 6,500,000 m^3 of fresh water per day to Libyans. He has/had support from the largest tribe in Libya, and immediately after NATO’s bombing campaign, had an approval rating of 85%, a number NO American president has even come close to sniffing.
    Libya was one of a handful of countries that did not have an essentially foreign-bought, Rothschild-owned central bank, and actually sought for a decent proportion of oil revenue instead of pr0stituting their resources for cheap to the West. This is why he was overthrown like so many other leaders of the Global South. If you think for a second that the West/NATO gave a damn about saving civilians, you’re seriously mentally impaired.
    Yet Muammar Gaddafi is the “insane dictator”?

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    I don’t think you realize how monumental an achievement that is, to be able to develop a nation in North Africa/the Middle East without foreign intervention and to do so successfully. Of course that means nothing to you, as evident by your wish to see Afghanistan leveled. But I’ll play your game because it’s fun to make you look stupid.
    From the Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/26/libya-war-saving-lives-catastrophic-failure

  • http://www.slamonline.com spit hot fiyah

    teddy just owned this whole thread, and jukai , your comment about how little u care about afghanistan is the worst comment i have ever seen on this site, u know afghanis r human beings right?

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    @ Jukai: NATO has (wisely, I suppose) refused to count civilian death tolls against civilians by rebels and their own air strikes. Moussa Ibrahim, a government spokesperson had an estimate of 2000 civilians killed by NATO air strikes–which NATO denies of course, but doesn’t dare conduct its own investigations. The death toll is probably somewhere close to Ibrahim’s estimate, though, because NATO has completely decimated Sirte, a city of 100,000 people. Sirte is Gaddafi’s hometown and one of the places most loyal to Gaddafi.
    “investigator in Libya, Peter Bouckaert, told me yesterday that more bodies are continuing to be discovered in Sirte, where evidence suggests about 500 people, civilians and fighters, have been killed in the last 10 days alone by shooting, shelling and Nato bombing.
    That has followed a two month-long siege and indiscriminate bombardment of a city of 100,000 which has been reduced to a Grozny-like state of destruction by newly triumphant rebel troops with Nato air and special-forces support.”

  • http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm Gametimeweezy

    WTF was EJ talking about at 4:13pm…. “EJ Posted: Feb.11 at 4:13 pm
    I don’t understand why people in America thank their war veterans for protecting their country, when pretty much always they’re just bombing other countries. Thank you for killing a bunch of arabs would be more correct if you ask me.”
    I hate when I hear people say that… All we do is bomb and attack other countries? Get a clue. You probably don’t have kids or live HERE so obviously you wouldn’t understand why we THANK(!) our war veterans for protecting our country. What about YOUR country?
    Just like we ask… Why do we spend so much money and resources protecting other countries too? For your families as well.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    You say: “How about putting your frustrations over the US supporting evil dictators instead of the US helping rebels free themselves of their own?”
    Jukai, again, you know nothing about Libya. There was an armed insurrection from the beginning–not the peaceful protests in Egypt and Tunisia–an ARMED insurrection. Can you imagine what the US would do if ever there was an ARMED INSURRECTION in the United States?
    But let’s talk about the rebels, whom you really believe are fighting for Libya’s freedom. The rebels are a conglomerate of former members of Gaddafi’s government and Muslim fundamentalists with ties to Al Qaeda–this has been confirmed by the rebels themselves to several British papers, if you want I can link you to them. They aren’t hiding it.
    The rebels have been lynching hundreds of black Libyans on the basis of their skin color, many of them migrant workers but also Libyan citizens. THESE are the kinds of people America backs when it wants to overthrow a government. The West has a lot of blood on their hands for these racist attacks, as CNN and other American media outlets (as well as Al Jazeera, now a pro-NATO Arab paper) blatantly lied, repeatedly, about Gaddafi hiring mercenaries from sub-Saharan Africa. This led to mass lynchings of black civilians, as the rebels assumed every black person was pro-Gaddafi. Human Rights Watch later warned of these attacks and stated CLEARLY that there was ZERO evidence of Gaddafi hiring African mercenaries.
    But I thought America was helping Libyans achieve democracy! I thought America was clamping down on Al Qaeda and Muslim radicals in the Middle East! Well, I’d very much like to believe that, except for the fact that the National Transition Council has already vowed to establish Sharia Law in Libya. So there goes pretty much ALL advancements for women’s rights and actual democracy.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    And if you had any doubts as to the real motive behind NATO’s bombing of Libya and blatant disregard for their sovereignty:
    The FIRST thing the rebels did, even amidst fighting a civil war, was establish A NEW CENTRAL BANK. They literally established a new central bank and threw themselves at Western investors, primarily oil companies, AS THEY WERE FIGHTING Gaddafi’s forces! It’s pretty clear what their intentions were.
    But you can keep pretending that they were fighting for Libyan freedom–freedom from a “dictator” whom 2000 of the 2335 tribes in Libya supported. When an American president comes close to landing that kind of support, then you can call other leaders dictators. Until then, you can shut your mouth, turn off your computer, and continue praying to those posters of Democrat presidents you have hanging on your wall.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Typical f*cking liberal delusion. You know, at least conservatives and Republicans know that the the US is killing people for American interests and American interests only–at least they’re SOMEWHAT honest. Unbearable, yes, but real. Then we have these Obama/Bill Clinton jock riders who actually think America is saving the world. lmao. Have fun with NDAA as the Democrats and Republicans both literally do away with the constitution. Oh, and Monsanto basically runs the FDA now. That should be good times.

  • http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm Gametimeweezy

    ^Preach it!

  • http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm Gametimeweezy

    A lot of Libyans have fled their country and came here because of the war. A lot of good, hard-working families. Isn’t that the point?

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Last thing about Operation Northwoods really quick–I don’t want to get into a discussion of it because it takes away from our Libya discourse.
    You said: “And the Operation Northwoods thing is laughable but conspiracy nutcases just love it. It never got close to passing, Teddy. It was a proposal made only by a group (not ‘everyone’) in the CIA and sent to the president, whose administration quickly rejected it. No other group outside of a small part of the CIA even knew about it and no one in the administration even considered it.”
    Actually, Operation Northwoods was not drafted by the CIA, it was drafted by the Joint Chief of Staff. In case you didn’t know, the Joint Chief of staff consists of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (CJCS), Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (VCJCS), and the Military Service Chiefs from the Army, Navy, Air Force, the Marine Corps, and the Chief of the National Guard Bureau,[1] all appointed by the President following Senate confirmation.[2] Each of the individual Military Service Chiefs, outside of their Joint Chiefs of Staff obligations, works directly for the Secretary of the Military Department concerned, i.e. Secretary of the Army, Secretary of the Navy, and the Secretary of the Air Force.
    If the Joint Chief of Staff drafts the f*cking plan, then yes, basically “everyone in a position of power within the military” probably approves of it–NOT just some obscure, unknown individuals in the CIA. And nice job trying to paint me as a conspiracy theorist. I didn’t concoct Operation Northwoods. I didn’t just suddenly invent false-flag operations. But hey, believe what you want.
    This will be the last I talk about this because you clearly like to divert attention away from the topic at hand to discredit me.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Well, that was a fun but complete waste of a Sunday night. LOL. Goodnight, Juks. Sorry if I pissed anyone off, but ya’ll had to hear it from someone, sometime.

  • EJ

    @Gametimeweezy, well why do you thank your war veterans for protecting your country? How are they doing that, when they’re invading other countries? Are you thanking them for protecting you against the invisible nuclear missiles in Iran?
    I don’t thank the FInnish war veterans of the Continuation war, cause that war was just stupid and out of bitterness.

  • EJ

    If I just had said invaded instead of “just bombing”, this post would have like 20 comments. smh

  • blakos

    Wow at Jukai. All respect lost dude. smh. Btw the US has been heavily involved in Africa over the last 50 years. Do some research. You have no idea of it’s involvement in the Congo during Mobutus reign? Its links to liberia. The US government has interests all around the world, as do most dominant powers. They will back whoever serves their interests. research their involvement in supporting Indonesia’s oppression of East timor. The support of Pinochet.

    With regards to Iraq, Libya….If Libya had such an unfreindly regime. Why dont they invade/bomb Mugabe, or other unfriendly regimes. It comes down to economics. Zimbabwe is good for growing food. Not pmping oil. Those that lobby the US government, Oil companies, Arms manufacturers etc need control of key countries and their resources. Irans hostility means Afgansitan is a useful country to use to pump oil from The former soviet states. Iraq was purely for cpaital gain. The new regime is very open to Multi nationals raping its resources, Sadamm used to be in the 80′s. But that turned sour in the early 90′s.

    Respect to the American people though. An amazingly inovative and diverse people. Troops like Enigmatic said are just following orders. I just dislike bullies in general. if only wars were fought between the opposing leaders. Then they could die, instead of sending others out to slaughter. i have friends in the army an i have respect for what they do. Some were in involved in reconstructing schools in Afganistan and protecting Innocent civilians from conflict.

  • http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm Gametimeweezy

    Because my cousin was a marine and I thank him for that sacrifice. Many close friends have also been enlisted everywhere from the army to airforce to national guard. I guess I don’t expect you to understand. It’s just you say “killing a bunch of arabs” very trivially. Or how you say invisible nuclear missles in Iran…. Don’t act like you really care if people are living or dying, you are just very quick to attack an American ideal.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    Sometimes comment sections need to be closed, and this one should have been a long time ago.
    Like, right after they posted it.

  • http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm Gametimeweezy

    @Teddy – But if 2,000 out of 2,335 tribes were ‘supportive’ of the Ghadafi than weren’t at least 335 tribes people being slaughtered?

  • http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm Gametimeweezy

    @EJ – as if we don’t know Iranians have been enriching uranium, please.

  • shutup

    I got away from this thread because once the name calling started I knew it would get ugly, but @rockinmypants Vietnam had a draft, thats were citizens are called to duty sometimes against their will. So even though we agree that protesting for these tickets is wrong, we seem to have a different view of history.

  • http://www.slamonline.com spit hot fiyah

    no need to close the thread as long as people are bringing real arguments and backing it up with facts.

  • http://Slamonline.com Rocksinmypants

    @shutup, I know what a draft is and I’d bet my life that these aren’t Vietnam vets pulling this kind of sh!t.

  • http://thetroyblog.com Teddy-the-Bear

    Wow sorry for all the insults yesterday Jukai and everyone else. I got REALLY carried away there. The facts remain, but damn. I know this is over the internet but I hope I didn’t drive anyone away from this site. Peace all.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    Rocksinmypants – it specifically mentions a Vietnam Vet in the article.
    I’d assume hes not the only Vietnam vet there.
    Good thing you couldn’t literally bet your life or you’d be dead now.

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    I was writing up a response but I got into all this “close the thread stuff”
    Why?
    Racial slurs, homosexual slurs, insults of all end go on in this website every day. Me and Teddy are having an intelligent debate of serious, world view things. THAT’S what is going to lock a thread? A debate between two people bringing up real word events? I don’t care if he called me a brainwashed sheep and I called him a lunatic, we were actually EXCHANGING IDEAS and I was actually LEARNING THINGS.
    A lot of people here need to get their priorities. Sick sh*t gets written here every day with no form of moderation. This wasn’t one of those things.
    I’ll withhold my rebuttal, hell I’ll mail it to Teddy if this really offends so many of you. But you guys gotta read and learn things.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    Why not address me Jukai, since it was me who said sh*t should get closed?
    F*ck it then, go ahead and break 500-plus comments for all I care.
    I never said any of this sh*t offended me.
    I was more concerned about people really amping it up and saying some really messed up sh*t, but I should get my priorities in order, apparently.
    Y’all have fun.

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    Enigmatic: A couple of people said it. Don’t start getting all whiny and start crying, really not needed. People get amped talking about basketball. I don’t get your insistence on ending this thread. It’s insulting when there’s so much other sh*t that makes one want to stop posting, you fixate on this.

  • shutup

    @Jukai and Teddy, outside of the name calling I thought the arguments were well typed, I understand Matics pause about having the thread continue too, like I said earlier my biggest problem was with EJ’s comments about 9/11. I would rather see a thread closed than have someone else disrespect thousands of innocent lives that have been lost which included firefighters and policemen, fathers and mothers and sons and daughters from all types of religions and ethnic backgrounds. I just dont understand trying to justify an attack by pointing out other negative things, an eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind.

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    Yeah, sorry about the disrespect Enigmatic. There are comments on slam that should be immediately erased that annoy me every day. It’s perturbing. Don’t post here as much anymore for a reason.

  • http://Slamonline.com Rocksinmypants

    @enigmatic I did die just now but I’m back. Guess I should be more thorough in my reading my bad. Either way though that kind of self entitlement is way out of line. As for all this other crap going on here I have no comment.

  • EJ

    What?? Jukai said he wouldn’t be mad if Afghanistan was leveled!! That should definitely be more controversial than anything posted on this thread. (I understand why you would be mad tho)
    And incase somebody hasn’t already understood what I meant with “had it coming”, was that a 9/11 kind of retaliation was foreseeable, not deserved.

  • http://nyill.wordpress.com Enigmatic

    Jukai – sorry for my last post too, sh*tty morning and all.
    I think for the most part you and Teddy are keeping things civil, I just didn’t want to see this thread go seriously downhill but I’ma chill.

  • http://sdjfklf.com Jukai

    Enigmatic: eh, it’s over on here anyways. If Teddy wants to continue, or anyone, I’ll be more than happy to share my thoughts at my e-mail (njl4515 at gmail dot com is a nice non-professional one).

  • http://slamonline.com Allenp

    Well this was an interesting read.

  • project_X

    Teddy-THE-Bear

    Thank you for your great comments! Made may day.
    And for anyone that thinks what he wrote is bs, just watch Syria now. A Libya-replay in the making..
    Though China and Russia seems to have had enough.
    Iran getting pissed..

    WW3??

    Please vote for Ron Paul, for the world sake!!!

  • project_X

    Oh and Jukai’s Afghanistan comment and total lack of knowledge on what’s going on in the world is frightening.

  • http://slamonline.com LakeShow

    I can’t believe Teddy Bear…. Wow buddy. Even more I can’t believe there are people that agreed with him. There is a reason why the stuff he is talking about is fringe and not mainstream and it’s not because it has allot of truth to it. While there is some truth in everything, saying that the US is worse than any other country is just false. America is a screwed up nation. FACT. Also FACT: Every other country is equally screwed up or way worse. So much wrong information was spread on this page. Is every Soldier a hero? No. Are the majority of them fighting for the right reasons? Yes. That is commendable. I will never come down harshly on the US for invading a country where Sharia Law is intact. Sharia Law is DISGUSTING. More disgusting than water boarding someone. Sharia Law kills more people each day than the US military does. At least 3/4 of who the US military is killing are actually bad people as apposed to innocent women and children whom are affected and killed by Sharia Law every day.

  • http://dsfklf.com Jukai

    project_X: Good debate, buddy. Real riveting stuff.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LTdx1nPu3k Teddy-the-Bear

    @ Lakeshow: You need to take a deep breath, calm down, and actually find out who in the Middle East practices Sharia Law, then look at their relationship to the United States, and then come back and comment.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LTdx1nPu3k Teddy-the-Bear

    @ project X you’re right about Syria.

  • http://www.slamonline.com spit hot fiyah

    @lakeshow, there is not a single country in the world implements full sharia laws, and for those that come somewhat close, refer to teddy’s comment above. Maybe the thing he talks about r not mainstream in your circle, but please travel the world man

  • project_X

    Jukai, I would debate you if there was anything left to say, just read what Teddy wrote and thats it. No one can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is the truth, but you surely do not have anything better to bring to the table. You are skilled when it comes to the NBA, i’ve enjoyed reading your comments and analysis for many years, but do stay out of geo-politics.
    Also some remorse over one of the most stupid, ignorant and outright crazy comments ever on this site is appropriate.

    Oh, and Al Qaeda leader Al-Zahwari is publicly supporting the “Syrian Uprisning”, of course since it will bring Islam/Sharia to power. He and Nato can form a new alliance. Current leaders of Libya are cheering them on.. I can’t belive that they killed Gadaffi unpunished!

    And to stay on topic, give the vets all these ticets, they been screwed into believing that they served their nations best interest when going to war with all these countries. They dream about the bloodshed they were forced to commit, they need those ticets more than anybody!

  • Thomas Pastore

    It is truly sad that many of you have Missed the Point of this Protest. First and Foremost Polticians do not deserve to gain from the Taxpayers ventures. The intent of this exercise was to demonstrate that if any Citizen should be considered to receive any of those tickets then it should be the young Veterans from Iraq, and Afghanistan. simply because they are our True All-Stars. Elected Officials should be Big Enough to give this small sacrifice to those who have Given us a BIG sacrifice. This also would have been a show of Respect for people we easily forget, while so many people “Drool” over these alleged “all-star” sports figures…..This exercise would have been some of the best Therapy for some Disabled Veterans who suffer everyday in their attempts to Heal. It would have given them a brief moment of relief, from the everyday ordeal they have to go through. I feel Sorry for any of you who could Not see this, really sorry for you. I know this cause I was out there doing the protest. Tom Pastore

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