Monday, June 15th, 2009 at 10:31 am  |  329 responses

Does Victory ‘Seal’ Kobe’s Legacy?

by Ryne Nelson

Can Kobe win it without Shaquille? The answer today clearly is ‘yes.’

Winning three titles before his 24th birthday put Kobe on the top of the world. But he fell, as everyone eventually does. And the seven years following couldn’t have been more painstakingly long as he clawed through turmoil to get back to the top.

He made it again. With the Lakers belonging completely to him, Kobe quickly learned that being on top is nothing to be taken for granted, especially when playing for one of sports most entitled franchises.

All those years of hearing the question from reporters, fans, relatives (everyone, really) made it seem like, as Kobe described, seven years of extreme pain.

“It was annoying. It was like Chinese water torture, just keep dropping a drop of water on your temple. It was just annoying. I would cringe every time. I was just like, it’s a challenge I’m just going to have to accept because there’s no way I’m going to argue it.”

“You can say it until you’re blue in the face and rationalize it until you’re blue in the face, but it’s not going anywhere until you do something about it. I think we as a team answered the call because they understood the challenge that I had, and we all embraced it.”

With his fourth championship and first Finals MVP, the heavy burden was relived from his shoulders. So can we finally give Kobe the respect he’s deserved for so long? Can Kobe Bryant now, without apprehension or qualifiers, be mentioned in the same breath as basketball’s other all-time greats?

I think the answer today clearly is ‘yes.’

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  • http://dsjklff.com Jukai

    Allenp: Isiah played an injured Lakers and an even MORE injured Celtics. Hell, one of those years, Bird didn’t even play the season to lose to the Pistons. Jordan’s team was Miami-bad, and honestly, Ewing’s team may have been the second best team of that era. But once again, the Pistons team was pretty stacked too… Isiah, Dumars, Aguirre, Rodman and Lambier is a FANTASTIC starting five, I mean downright fantastic. Don’t forget the Microwave coming off the bench!

  • http://dsjklff.com Jukai

    And just for arguments sake: Jabbar, Chamberlain, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, Malone, Walton, Robisnon, Ewing, Reed, Lanier, Cowens, Thurmond, Gilmore, Haywood, Bellamy, Unseld, Howard, Sabonis, Issell, Yao. Which ten guys is Parish better than? Which five?

  • http://dsjklff.com Jukai

    I really should give Isiah more credit than I do, I guess.

  • http://slam Allenp

    Jukai
    The runs of the Piston and the Celtics overlapped.
    Isiah was drafted in 1981, Bird and Magic were picked in 1979. They were contemporaries. They went through the same teams. Isiah had to go through Bird because Bird came into a situation that allowed his team to progress faster.
    Isiah was RIGHT there with Bird in the East, despite having less talent. And he managed to overcome Bird’s Celtics three times, and also managed to knock of Magic’s Lakers for good measure.
    You seem to missing the point that Isiah and Bird came up together. This wasn’t like Jordan and Bird, or Jordan and Magic. This is like Shaq and KG. Or Shaq and Alonzo.
    And Rodman was a superior rebounder to Parish, but I think Parish was the superior overall player.

  • http://slam Allenp

    Parish played in the NBA All-Star Game nine times, finished among the top 10 in the league in field goal percentage for six consecutive seasons, topped 10 rebounds per game in eight seasons and averaged better than 15 points in nine campaigns. In 1981-82 he recorded a career-high average of 19.9 ppg and he averaged a career-best 12.5 rpg in 1988-89.

  • http://dsjklff.com Jukai

    Allenp: That is a terrible way to look at it. What does it matter that they are contemporaries? Bird has had a far greater amount of success in a far shorter career, and Isiah’s success only came at a time when the Celtics and Lakers were full of injuries and retirements, same with the other two big teams in the 80s, Philidelphia (almost completely retired by then) and Houston (ask Ralph Sampson how he was doing). When the Pistons began owning the league, Bird had developed back problems that, two years later, caused him to retire. Bird, all things considering, didn’t have a very long career.
    I also know the way I described things above were certainly a terrible way to look at things too: Bird had a better team than Isiah, always. Once again though, Isiah’s team was still STACKED with two other hall of famers and they played lesser competition to get their championships. They never played the Lakers or Celtics from the early to mid 80s. They didn’t. They played a mostly retired and vastly injured substitute.
    Also, sub-point: How many defensive player of the year awards did Parish win? None? Oh, well, perhaps Parish isn’t as overall superior as you thought.
    I didn’t ask you for Parishs’ bio, I asked who on that list he was better than.

  • http://slam Allenp

    Jukai
    So, you’re saying that Magic and Bird didn’t benefit from injuries and retirements?
    It matter that they were contemporaries because that means that Isiah didn’t just “catch” Bird and Magic on the decline, he fought with them his whole career and carved out his own niche of success.
    “In the 1985 NBA Playoffs, Thomas and his team went to the conference semi-finals against the 15-time NBA champion Boston Celtics led by Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, and Dennis Johnson. Detroit couldn’t shake the Celtics in their six-game series, eventually losing.

    In the 1987 NBA Playoffs, Thomas and the Pistons went to the Eastern Conference Finals and faced the Boston Celtics. It was the farthest the team had advanced since moving from Fort Wayne when they were the Zollner-Pistons. The Pistons were able to tie the Celtics at two games apiece. Detroit’s hope of winning Game 5 was dashed at the Boston Garden with seconds remaining in a play by Larry Bird: Thomas attempted to quickly inbound the ball, Larry Bird stole the inbound pass and passed it to Dennis Johnson for the game-winning layup.

    In 1988 the Pistons’ first trip to the Finals saw them face the Los Angeles Lakers, who were led by Magic Johnson, James Worthy, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Prior to the series, Thomas and Johnson would exchange a courtside kiss on the cheek prior to tip-off as a sign of their deep friendship. After taking a 3-2 series lead back to Los Angeles, Detroit appeared poised to win their first NBA title in Game 6.”

    Obviously, Isiah was going head to head with Bird, with less talent, and eventually beat him. Where are you getting this stuff about his only “success” coming when Bird and Magic were hurt? Are you only defining success as championships? Injuries happen, whose fault is it Larry Bird’s body was giving out less than 10 years into his career?

  • http://slam Allenp

    Jukai
    You were hyperbolic in your comments about the talent Bird had around him. That was my point. He wasn’t THE Celtics. He was the man on his team, but he had a GREAT team.

  • Jackie Moon

    I will now use the names Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant in the same sentence.

  • jrb

    Pau cant win without kobe

  • Rnz

    I think that skill wise, purely skill wise, Kobe is better than Jordan..Kobe got better handles, shoot the 3s better..but what truly separates MJ from the rest of players ever to bounce a Spalding (or Molten, Mikasa, whatever) is his mentality..I’ve said this before, MJ is the only player that played better when he was angry ,consistently….with that being said, the closest player to MJ by far is Kobe

  • http://fjdkslf.com Jukai

    Allenp: You can just say you’re holding Larry Bird’s injuries against him dude. That’s entirely fair: T-Mac, in his few years in the league, was one of the best small forwards ever, Grant Hill too… but because they were only at their height for so few years, no one considers them truly great. Bird did not have one of those 20 year careers. If you factor that in, then I can understand why you underrate Bird as you do. Even still, it’s my opinion (and well, pretty much the opinion of the entire f*cking sports world) that if the Celtics hadn’t been so injury ravaged, the Pistons would NOT have beat the Celtics. Likewise, if the 1990 Pistons played the 1985 Celtics, they’d probably get creamed.
    You really seem to nag me for not mentioning all the talent Bird had on his team (he was on an immense team, but I think the individual talent on that team is very overrated) but you don’t seem to acknowledge Isiah playing with one HoFer (Joe Dumars), another probable future HoFer (Dennis Rodman), and two immense role players in Agguire and Lambier. That’s a really, really talented team. How is Bird overrated (for averaging 23-10-6 his entire career) while Isiah is underrated (19-3-9). I don’t think people give him enough credit on how much he career his team. Once again though, he had a great team.

  • Gerhard

    @RNZ >> NOBODY’S greater than His Airness! MJ plays for & with the team. KOBE PLAYS FOR SELF GRATIFICATION. He wants to prove to the world that he is better than MJ, or Shaq or whoever else played and/or is playing the game of basketball. KOBE IS ALL HYPE!!! He is a product of the ‘marketing geniuses’ out there. The shoe company he endorses (I don’t want to say their name because they are not paying me to do so), needs or wants a new player that could continue what MJ has given them. The league definitely misses MJ, and they need someone else’s name to bring people’s interests in the game. MJ was a really big loss to the game when he retired. And NOBODY, I mean NOBODY CAN FILL MJ’s giant shoes he left behind.

  • Rnz

    @Gerhard : My point exactly mate…What makes MJ GOAT is not all about skills..He had incredible skills and to that, he added ridiculous competitiveness and a one of a kind mental toughness to the mix…..Skill wise, Kobe and LeBron is ahead of MJ, but those two still lacking in the two latter categories..and to be honest, I dont think anyone can ever live up to MJ’s standard of competitiveness and mental toughness..that is why MJ is GOAT

  • http://dsjklff.com Jukai

    Rnz: Lebron is certainly not ahead of MJ in skill. Kobe is debatable. I would say, while Kobe is faster with a crossover, Jordan employed more moves to get to the basket, behind the backs, hop steps, moves that Kobe uses, but very infrequently, so it’s debatable who was a better ballhandler. And while Jordan was an awful three point shooter when he came out of college, he vastly improved on that area during his later years, once shooting 50%(!!!!!) percent from the three. 50%!
    So, think carefully before you declare that Kobe is more skilled than Jordan. I’m not going to disagree, but I think there is an argument.

  • http://www.newyorkshockexchange.com Old School Baller

    Interesting how the media has given so much credit to Kobe Bryant for winning this title. The LA title run was sealed when they got Pau Gasol, an All-Star big man, and gave up nothing in return. Pre-Gasol the Lakers were an above average team, at best. In today’s NBA, quality big men like Gasol and Lamar Odom are scarce. Then also throw in a 7’1″ (another big body) which along with Kobe, the Lakers are the most talented team in the league. Only Boston with a healthy KG and Leon Powe could have matched up with them talent wise. Credit the Memphis Grizzlies who basically handed Gasol to the Lakers for this championship.

  • http://dsjklff.com Jukai

    Right, OSB, we should not give any credit to Kobe, none at all. Idiot. If you think the team was anything other than a 7th seed without Kobe, you’re dillusional.

  • http://www.slamonline.com wayno
  • http://slam Allenp

    Jukai
    I’m nagging you for saying that Bird was “THE CELTICS.”
    You tend to get hyperbolic. This was a case of that.
    I think Bird was the leader of his team, I think Hakeem CARRIED his team to a ring in 1994. There is a difference.
    I don’t think Isiah carried his team either, I just think he less overall talent than Bird, and he never had a really great big man to lean on. That’s all. I think Isiah’s playing career has been overshadowed by his time as a coach and executive and I find that sad.

  • Peter
  • http://dsjklff.com Jukai

    Allenp: Okay, co-sign. To me, when I say Bird was the CELTICS, I meant to say his talent far overshadowed any other player on the team. I don’t mean to say he is like Chris Bosh of today or Kobe in 2005 or AI in 2000… where if they are out, then literally no one can score or perform. I’m just trying to say that this wasn’t a Shaq-Kobe duo that Larry Bird had. Bird had an incredible championship-level team, who could make a run in the playoffs without Bird. They had a legit 2-10 rotation. But it was Bird who turned that team into a legendary team.
    Isiah doesn’t get enough credit, I do agree.

  • http://dsjklff.com Jukai
  • http://www.slamonline.com wayno

    “Lost his virginity at age 52, to Ron Harper”…LMAO

  • Jackie Moon

    Larry only has two Finals MVPS? Right now, Kobe’s only made a small step in his legacy, but if he gets another Finals MVP, it will vault him even higher than this year’s step up.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Thank you Jackie Moon, thats what I was trying to tell Jukai about Larry, he had more help than people realize.

  • Rnz

    @Jukai: Got me there mate, Im too lazy to look up the stats :D ..

  • Matul9

    I really hate it when people say ‘this guy can’t win without that guy’. it sounds really dumb. NOBODY can win the title without SOMEBODY else good beside them! it’s a team sport, this ain’t WWE!
    MJ didn’t win his titles playing one-on-five, he didn’t win his titles playing with a bunch of guys on the rec center, he had good players supporting him and accepting their roles. They’re all cogs that make their team a championship caliber team. Obviously some cogs are larger than others, and that’s the Man of that team.
    So the question is not whether A can win without B(which he of course can’t), but is A the Man of his team?

    -Magic & Cap wouldn’t have won their titles without Worthy etc.
    -MJ wouldn’t have won without Pippen etc.
    -Shaq wouldn’t've won without KB8 etc.
    -KB24 wouldnt’ve won without Pau etc.

    All of those players mentioned first in the sentences are the Man in their respective teams, which is the only thing that matters when we’re talking individual accolade/respect/whatever.
    Because while they didn’t win their championship(s)without their teammates, they were the unquestioned leaders of their respective teams,the number 1 reason their teams won, and that’s what matters.

  • http://www.supremenyc.com Waylonakolipse

    Why are you guys talking about the 80′s Celtics? LOL, anyways Kobe is mad skilled. I think he’s the most skilled player in the NBA because he can score 30ppg on jumpshots. But he’s losing athletic ability and he can’t physically dominate and bang on fools anymore. In reality LeBron and Wade are now more effective than Kobe. As an individual player Kobe is slipping, it’s a good thing he has such a strong team to support him in his old age hahaha! But as for a 5th ring? Well if Odom leaves I don’t see it happening. Fisher has 1 good year left, Bynum is gimpy, and Ariza is playing like a potential future All-Star but this was a contract year for him. And I don’t see him maintaining that level of drive. Plus they’d have to beat the Celtics and that isn’t happening. Why? Because Garnett stomps Pau, Rondo has become a beast at pg, and Pierce ‘n Allen are better than Kobe ‘n Ariza as a combo. Bynum and Perkins will ram into eachother and foul out and the Celtics bench > Lakers bench.

  • http://www.newyorkshockexchange.com Old School Baller

    Jukai, it appears you have “politics” in your future . . . attribute sophomoric statements to me and take a position as if you are correcting. Kobe is Kobe, but pre-Gasol there was speculation that he wanted out of LA, hoping for a chance to win a title elsewhere. I stand by what I said earlier – Memphis had as much to do with this Chip as anybody else.

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