Monday, June 15th, 2009 at 10:31 am  |  329 responses

Does Victory ‘Seal’ Kobe’s Legacy?

by Ryne Nelson

Can Kobe win it without Shaquille? The answer today clearly is ‘yes.’

Winning three titles before his 24th birthday put Kobe on the top of the world. But he fell, as everyone eventually does. And the seven years following couldn’t have been more painstakingly long as he clawed through turmoil to get back to the top.

He made it again. With the Lakers belonging completely to him, Kobe quickly learned that being on top is nothing to be taken for granted, especially when playing for one of sports most entitled franchises.

All those years of hearing the question from reporters, fans, relatives (everyone, really) made it seem like, as Kobe described, seven years of extreme pain.

“It was annoying. It was like Chinese water torture, just keep dropping a drop of water on your temple. It was just annoying. I would cringe every time. I was just like, it’s a challenge I’m just going to have to accept because there’s no way I’m going to argue it.”

“You can say it until you’re blue in the face and rationalize it until you’re blue in the face, but it’s not going anywhere until you do something about it. I think we as a team answered the call because they understood the challenge that I had, and we all embraced it.”

With his fourth championship and first Finals MVP, the heavy burden was relived from his shoulders. So can we finally give Kobe the respect he’s deserved for so long? Can Kobe Bryant now, without apprehension or qualifiers, be mentioned in the same breath as basketball’s other all-time greats?

I think the answer today clearly is ‘yes.’

  • Add a Comment
  • Share
  • RSS

Tags: , ,

← Older Comments
Newer Comments →
  • Peter

    And by the way I’ve never been a fan of either of them.

  • Peter

    Oh and the point about the highlight video was that his plays weren’t so fantastic.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    @ Peter: Are you serious? Earl Monroe didn’t need to jump over people, he played with the proper skills to maneuver AROUND people. And please, explain to me your idiotic reasoning that the statistics of Wilt Chamberlain somehow mean that he wouldn’t be a good player in today’s league, because averaging 50 points and over 20 rebounds in a single season seems pretty f*ckin good.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    Also, saying he COULDN’T match up with Shaq is a stretch.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    @ Joe: I don’t care how skinny Iceman was, he’d still dominate in today’s game. How can you honestly say that he’d be muscled out when the number of cheap touch fouls called is at an all time high? Don’t say cr@p like that. The greatest players of each era would still play at a high level despite evolution of the game.

  • Teddy-the-Bear

    I like how people say the game has evolved into a more physical style of play. IT HASN’T. Yes, the 90′s were a time of hardnosed, physical play, but after that the NBA has actually evolved into a softer game, as noted by the prevalence of touch fouls and flagrants called.

  • QaSaNoVa

    SHAQ: Sheeeeesh man!! Kobe’s ass tastes like a used rubber!! MJ’s used rubber!!!

  • thegman8

    Since the dawn of time, man has asked the question of what makes kobe bryant, aka the black mamba, so unstoppable.

    I’m not a kobe fan, but he is obviously the best player in the nba today. If you can have any one player next season – for just a year, without thinking of the future, without looking at potential, etc – will you pick kobe or lebron? I rest my case.

  • JoeMaMa

    I know the Iceman could still do it, but I’m of the opinion that each generation builds upon the previous one. Gervin would still be a special player, but he wouldn’t be the same as in his own time. Dominate? That’s a big word, and I don’t think he could. Maybe with some serious weight lifting. Dude was skiiiiinny.

  • RedRum

    One point… all this talk about “doing it without Shaq” doesn’t validate the point of how important Shaq was?

  • RedRum

    One minute… doesn’t all this talk about “doing it without Shaq” validate the point how important Shaq was?

  • Hubert

    now time to prove he can win it without dfish.

  • Eric

    Peter, Kobe was a side kick because everything ran thru Shaq. kobe was the second option. That’s why he didn’t win any finals MVP’s. And no Magic wasn’t a side kick. Everything ran thru him.

    Seed, yes Pippen was a side kick. During the Bulls championship runs he, like kobe was the second option. The Same with Drexler. That’s all yopu white trash moron.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Eric you are what Kobe calls idiotic thinking, you are a dummy. Do you watch basketball or do you just comment to see your name on the screen. Pippen had more to do with Jordan success than anything, Pippen guarded the toughest players and did all the little things. But of course Jordan got all the credit. Kobe is a sidekick, but took over games when Shaq wasn’t on the floor during 4th quarters when he couldn’t hit free throws. Do you call others like Magic, Larry and others sidekicks, they played with multiple Hall of Famers, but its OK for them. Kobe was just as good as Shaq, the triangle offense is about getting the ball inside and plus if you don’t give credit to Pippen, Drexler or Kobe, you need to watch some youtube games of these players.

  • http://dsjklff.com Jukai

    The Seed: it’s cool how you can keep ignoring me, but I’m going to keep on comenting that Kevin McHale and Robert Parish COMBINED are half the player that Shaq is. Really. The Boston Celtics success had so much to do with Larry Bird, it’s not even funny. Somewhere along the line, Larry Bird became a legendary three-point shooter. That could not have been farther from the truth. Larry had awesome post moves, was great on the break, had LEBRON-ESQUE court vision (if he had the mobility, he could easily have played the point way more often)… Larry outrebounded Parish and McHale on many, many occasions. Dude made smart drives, and was probably the best forward in the way he moved without the ball: spread the floor from the three when the D was closed in, cut or posted when the D was spread out. He was NOT a three-point shooter. Really, he wasn’t at all.
    I’m not disagreeing with you about Kobe. I personally think Kobe, over his career, has been better than Shaq, simply because Shaq never worked on his game while Kobe worked hard enough to surpass his old partner. But really, stop using Bird to make your points. Bird WAS the Celtics.

  • http://dsjklff.com Jukai

    And Peter, I still don’t get your logic. Wilt averaged 50 and 20 while being triple teamed on every possession in a game where you could pretty much choke hold someone to foul them. How would that not translate to something like 35-15 in a day where, albeit much more physical, touch fouls mean easier scoring in the post and triple teaming Wilt, with Wilt’s amazing passing, would be utterly worthless?

  • Cobro

    Hi ALL – Keep in mind there is a different between BEST player, and GREATEST player. BEST is just that, a player that is unbelievably skilled and has individual success. GREATEST has to do with one thing: winning! This iw why, when start to talk about ALL-TIME players, you should actually do a combination of the two when factoring in your decisions. If you factor in GREATNESS (winning) – then you would indeed have Kobe over Jerry West as the second best 2 guard. And you would have Bill Russell over Wilt, even though Wilt was probably a better all around center. You’d put Isaiah ahead of John Stockton, Duncan WAY ahead of Mailman, etc, etc. In some very nice, rare cases like Jordan, Magic & Bird you have a player that has elements of both: BEST and GREATNESS. KOBE is one of those players, and he will get all the props he deserves, and, especially if you take the top 10 by position (2 players at each position), then YES – Kobe is Top 10 ALL-TIME….it cant be argued. He’s clearly the second best 2 guard ALL-TIME, ahead of Jerry West….even Jerry said as much himself very recently. Keep in mind this one thing: He’s only 30, and we’ve still got more to come…

  • Peter

    Jukai that’s exactly it…it can’t just translate. Think about it. You couldn’t find a player in the NBA today that couldn’t do a behind the back dribble agree? Bob Cousy couldn’t even dribble with his left hand and he was the best point guard of his time. Things that are a basic part of a players development now were extraordinary skills back then. If Wilt, with his natural size and athleticism grew up in this era I’m sure he would be extremely dominant, but you can’t just take the Wilt with his moves and game from the 60′s and transplant him into the modern game. Did you see the defense being played back then? He was a man amongst boys. Sh’t even Bill Russel was only 6’10, thats like Lamar Odom guarding Shaq.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Jukai, sorry for ignoring you. I was using Bird as an example he played with great players, A lot of people see Mchale and one of the greatest forwards ever and Robert Parish as a great center and Dennis Johnson as one of the great point guards and Anige as of one the great shooters from 3. Since you said Mchale and Parish are not close to Shaq. I will go with Stats with you from the 84 to 87 Finals and you will see Bird had help, even getting outscore in the Finals by his sorry players-you say.
    84 Finals Bird 27, Johnson 17, Parish 15, Machale 13
    85 Finals Mchale 26, Bird 23, Parish 17, Johson 16
    86 Finals Mchale 25, Bird 24, Johson 17, Ainge 15
    87 Finals Bird 24, Mchale 20, Parish 16, Johnson 21
    Jukai, he had alot of help, so thats why I am using Larry Bird, he is one of the greatest, but his sidekicks played better sometimes in the FINALS!!!!

  • http://dsjklff.com Jukai

    Peter: I’ve seen entire games. A lot of the time, it was a pass back-and-forth between Chamberlain and someone else because everyone in the area would immediately crowd around Chamberlain. Chamberlain would pass it out, get better positioning, have it passed back, pass it out, get better positioning, have it passed back, scores. The footage you saw in those clips is NOTHING like the actual footage of how Chamberlain played.
    Yes, you’re right though: if you throw Chamberlain, at 23, into the game today, he would NOT dominate. He’d probably be a fringe all-star for the first two or three years. However, like any great player, he’d adapt and become dominate. Like European players (or Americans playign in Europe, ask Jennings and Childress) it takes some time to adjust to a different style of play. It’s not instant. But Chamberlain could do it, no doubt.
    There are some factors you don’t acknowledge: Chamberlain is still bigger and more massive than most centers today. At 7’1, he’d tower over Dwight, Lee, Rasheed, Okur, Jermaine O’Neil, Bargniani, Okafor, etc. etc. It’s not like Chamberlain never played and dominated against people taller than him (ask Artis Gilmore).
    Chamberlain is also much more mobile. I mean, outside of Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, Sampson… what centers do you know who would start and FINISH on a break? Chamberlain did that. Hell, in the 1972 WCF, Times said he was out-pacing and out-hussling Jabbar. Jabbar who played on the Showtime Lakers. Who was ten years younger than Chamberlain.
    Not droppin’ this, man, just to tell ya.

  • http://slam Allenp

    Peter
    Wilt was the same size as Shaq, just as athletic as Shaq, and he had more moves than Shaq.
    He freaking jumped HIGH JUMP.
    What is the factual basis you’re using to prove that Wilt Chamberlain could not physically compete with Shaq or the players in today’s NBA?

  • http://slam Allenp

    The fact is, there are more athletes in today’s League than there were in years past. That doesn’t mean there were NO athletes back in the day.
    What do you think Bill Russell was?

  • http://dsjklff.com Jukai

    Allenp: just an interesting note, Bill Walton was almost not allowed to go to the Olympics for basketball because he had just got drafted (but never signed, making him still a non-professional athlete). If he didn’t get to play basketball, he would have competed in TRACK-AND-FIELD IN THE OLYMPICS. He would have been a walk on. So yeah, he was althetic.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    Jukai, you can respond to Peter, respond to my 1:30pm comment since you called me out for using Bird, since he WAS the Celtics.

  • http://dsjklff.com Jukai

    The Seed: You’d make an excellent point, if basketball was just scoring. Actual boxscore statistics:
    Larry 27.4 14 3.6 2.1
    McHale 15.4 11.4 1.3 1.6
    Parish 13.4 5.9 1.1 0.3
    73 FInals: Larry had more points, rebounds, assists, and steals than anyone
    McHale 26.0 10.7 1.3 0.3
    Larry 23.8 8.8 5.0 1.8
    Parish 17.2 9.0 2.0 1.0
    74 Finals: Larry bird has more assists and steals than anyone else
    McHale 25.8 8.5 1.7 0.8
    Larry 24.0 9.7 9.5 2.7
    Parish 12.7 6.8 1.0 0.5
    75 Finals: Larry has more rebounds, assists, and steals than anyone else (almost has a triple double)
    Larry 24.2 10.0 5.5 1.2
    McHale 20.5 9.0 2.0 0.2
    Parish 16.7 6.5 1.2 0.8
    76 Finals: Larry has mroe points, rebounds, assists and steals than anyone else
    I didn’t add anyone else because DJ and Ainge never got close to passing Larry’s statlines.
    Larry wasn’t a scorer. He was a COMPLETE player.

  • http://dsjklff.com Jukai

    Relax there big guy, I’m responding.

  • http://www.kb24.com The Seed

    I agree with your complete player, stat line, but this is the NBA, scoring matters, Scottie Pippen was the greatest complete stat line player ever and he gets no respect. But you want Larry to get this respect, but people call him one of the greatest, not because he got rebounds and assists, because he could score. I feel based off of my stats, Larry had alot of HELP and winning only three rings to me should be questioned, just like Jerry west losing so many finals and being the logo, where he is know for scoring. I see your point, but Bird played with 3 HoFamers, come on, he had alot of help and for the best player on a team being outscored by his sidekicks is funny to me. I feel Bird should have had more rings with this talent, what you think, and be honest?

  • Peter

    Ok Jukai I conceded somewhat that he would adapt. But let me throw this one back…how would Shaq have looked if you put him in a game back then? More adapting? Less? Or for that matter, put Kobe in against West, Big O etc…

  • http://dsjklff.com Jukai

    The Seed: First off, you’re a basktball fan. You should know that while scoring makes you a legend for the common non-fan, a complete STAT line makes you legendary for a basketball fan. Magic Johnsonly scored less than 20 a game. Why do you think some people call him the second best player ever?
    Secondly, you’re being unfair to the Celtics. In the 80s, they had three championships, two finals appearences, and two Eastern Conference appearences. That’s insane! Most teams can never accomplish this in a decade, never!
    Twice they did not make it, but once Bird missed the entire season. They also made a bad decision in trading away some key players for a high draft pick and then selecting Len Bias, instead of, well, let’s say someone who wasn’t going to die.
    Why did they not win more championships? Well, let’s take a look at the teams they played in the Finals and conference finals.
    The Magic of the decade arguably were the most well kept teams outside of the Celtics of the 60s, the Bulls of the 90s, and the Spurs of today.
    I mean, LOOK at the talent: Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul Jabbar, both TOP TEN legendary players. They also circulated Jamal Wilks (underrated), Spencer Haywood (HOF), Michael Cooper (huge role player), Bob McAdoo (HOF), James Worthy (HOF), AC Green (big time champion player), Byron Scott, Kurt Rambis… c’mon! Ridiculous! They also lost twice to a Phili team with Julias Erving and Moses Malone, two huge hall of famous, along with Daryll Dawkins (probable HOF), Cheeks (underrated player), Andrew Toney, etc.
    The fact that the Celts won THREE championships during that era is pretty crazy in itself.
    You’re also overrating a lot of players. I mean, Kevin McHale was a BENCH player for most of the Celtics run! Really! He got the six man of the year award twice! He was only upgraded to a starter when Maxwell left and Bird moved down to small forward. Parish is vastly overrated and I can name 15-20 centers better than he was. DJ is underrated but still not anywhere near impressive enough to make up for the talent the Lakers had.
    And just to top it off, Scottie Pippen averaged 25-5.5-5.5-2-1 at his height. Larry Bird was 27-10-7-1.5-1 at his height. So, yeah, tell me who was a more complete stat player.

  • http://dsjklff.com Jukai

    Peter: For Kobe, probably less than you imagine. Kobe would probably hit 35-37 a game, but be held back a bit with the lack of creativity he would be allowed to show on the offensive end. His rebounds would raise a bit, but his assists would plummet to just about 1-2 since it was much harder to get an assist in those days (those drop offs to cutters he gets would not count). Defensively, he’d kill guys, but nothing statistically would change
    Shaq, on the other hand, may average 45-25 with seven blocks a game. Right off the bat.
    Your point?

  • http://howdtheygetajob.com nbk

    and the best complete statline player ever……..oscar robertson. 25, 7, 9. They didn’t keep steals & blocks until his last year…. but he averaged 1.1 steals. 25 7 9 is rediculous though

  • http://slam Allenp

    Jukai
    Did you mean Bill Russell when you typed Bill Walton?

  • http://slam Allenp

    Jukai
    Your argument about Bird is a little weak.
    Bird was the Celtics the same way Jordan was the Bulls.
    He was clearly the best player. The leader and the Mr. Fix it. But that doesn’t mean he didn’t have substantial help. This wasn’t Hakeem in his first championship year.

  • http://slam Allenp

    Jukai
    Did Larry Bird have more help or less help than Isiah Thomas?

  • http://howdtheygetajob.com nbk

    more on offense less on defense

  • http://www.slamonline.com wayno

    slam is screwed up

  • http://dsjklff.com Jukai

    Allenp: Yes, I did mean Russell.
    I think the Celtics were all-in-all better than Isiah’s Pistons but all-in-all had a much harder time winning the championships. I think Jordan and Bird BOTH were pretty way, way, way above anyone else on their team, to be honest. They had amazing teams, I just don’t think the talent there was comparable, to say, having Shaq and Kobe on the same team.

  • http://www.slamonline.com wayno

    Larry had WAY more help than Isiah…

  • http://dsjklff.com Jukai

    I mean, if you look at the Celtics, Magic, 76ers and Rockets of the 80s, you can see that the 90s (outside of the Bulls and possible the Jazz) did not have ANYTHING comparable to them.

  • http://www.slamonline.com wayno

    My 4:10 post wasn’t me btw…slam’s gotta fix this…

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    thats was me, and i was saying that because my comment was coming up. Apparently slam is really screwed up. My bad Wayno I didn’t notice

  • http://www.slamonline.com nbk

    *wasn’t

  • http://www.slamonline.com wayno

    It’s all good

  • http://slam Allenp

    Jukai
    McHale came off the bench because he played the same position as Bird and they were hesitant to move Bird to the three early in his career. He was still killing.

  • http://dsjklff.com Jukai

    Allenp: I agree McHale deserves MOST of the hype he gets. My big problem is with Parish. I don’t think the dude was a good center at all, and I think he was the way he was because of DJ/Archibald, Bird, and McHale.

  • http://slam Allenp

    Jukai
    Isiah had to go through Bird, Magic and whole bunch of the cats you named. He also had to hold off Jordan and Ewing to get his.
    Isiah had less talent, and won one less ring. And that’s mainly because he effed up his ankle that one year.
    Honestly, I think Isiah Thomas’s career is one of the most underrated in the history of basketball.
    I think Larry Bird is slightly, just slightly overrated. And I think the argument that he didn’t have a stacked team, when compared to everybody else in the league besides the Lakers, well that doesn’t hold water. Without a doubt, Magic played with the best talent in the league, but Bird was pretty damn close.

  • http://slam Allenp

    Jukai
    Honestly, I agree with you that Parish and McHale are a little overhyped. But that happens to all great players.
    Do people even talk about the fact that Bird and Magic were subpar individual defenders and that Magic was streaky as hell at shooting? Nah, cause their legends.
    Parish put up nice numbers and was a key cog in the middle for a team that dominated in the half court. You can’t knock what he did.
    Besides, who on the Pistons team was the equal of either McHale or Parrish?

  • http://slam Allenp

    As far as Kobe or Shaq dominating from jump, I don’t know.
    Many of the moves we consider perfectly legal and acceptable today were outlawed back in the day.
    No jump stops, no palming, lots of little things that today’s players have incorporated into the game, which would be outlawed back in the day.
    I think it would require and adjustment for any player to jump eras.

  • http://dsjklff.com Jukai

    Allenp: Rodman was easily equal to Parish. McHale was probably better than anyone on the Pistons team but Dumars WAS inducted to the hall of fame, dude was an incredible defender, solid jumper too. Sure, the Celts are a better team, there is no one then comparable to DJ/Archibald (Lambier is another dude who is way overrated) but as I’ve mentioned, the teams that the Celtics had to go through were SUPERIOR to the competition the Pistons faught. Just… way way better!
    I give Parish props, he’d be an instant starter on 90% of the teams in the L (not counting the Orlando, Houston and Phoenix). But people saying he’s a top ten center? Good lord, no.

  • Gerhard

    Kobe is a great player. But he IS NOT THAT GREAT OF A PLAYER. I agree with one of the comments here (i forgot who, sorry bout that) that Kobe can’t win no $**t without the addition of Pau Gasol. Hell, they were struggling last year before Pau came in. Had Pau not been added by to the team, they wouldn’t even be in the finals last year. And because Pau was healthy this year, they again made it to the finals. Take Pau away, & I don’t think you will the same results.

    KOBE IS ALL HYPE! Just as LBJ is all hype too(but that’s another story).

← Older Comments
Newer Comments →
Advertisement